Every mother needs to hear this conversation. It just doesn’t make sense that we put so much undue pressure on ourselves and are quick to criticize and judge other moms for their parenting styles. I’m joined today by Erica Djossa, the author of Releasing the Mother Load: How to Carry Less and Enjoy Motherhood More. We are talking about all things motherhood and expectations, why I’ve been blasted over a couple of recent TikToks, and Erica’s parenting wisdom from her book. Join us to learn more!
Show Highlights:
● One of KC’s videos about how she “doesn’t play” with her kids—and the flurry of negative responses over parenting choices
● The intensive mothering ideation: motherhood equals martyrdom, mothers must put everyone else’s needs about their own, shelve all their interests, and be self-sacrificial in every way
● The second of KC’s videos about sending her dog away from home for training—and the flurry of anger and shame over her inadequacies as a dog owner
● Mainstay pillars of the intensive mothering ideology and the BS that is promoted as healthy attachment and “good mothering”
● Giving less can sometimes mean giving more.
● The truth that shows up in the bedtime routine (“Are you holding space for yourself, mom?”)
● The scope, dynamic, and importance of “independent play,” creativity, and solving problems
● Healthy attachment: safety, security, reliability, and dependability
● The space for moms to have unique and different personalities and mothering styles, like bedroom parents vs. living room parents
● Projecting our mother wounds on other moms (Why do we do it?)
● Understanding why not all NOs are equal
● The disparity in expectations and judgment for moms and dads
● Motherhood expectations, boundaries, and the stories we tell ourselves
Resources and Links:
Connect with Erica Djossa: Website, Instagram, Momwell Podcast, and Releasing the Mother Load book
Mentioned by Erica: Needy by Mara Glatzel
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC 0:05
Hello you Sentient ball of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. This is the podcast where I talk about mental health and wellness all in ways that hopefully doesn't make you want to run screaming from the room. I am your host, KC Davis. Did I say that? I'm not sure. Listen, Vyvanse I took one today for the first time in four weeks, it's been on backorder. So I'm ready to go. But I'm stuttering to a Start Here. Okay, I'm here with Erica jossa. She is the author of a book called releasing the mother lode Christina leaned out of the she is an author of the book called releasing the mother lode and tell me the subtitle again,
Erica Djossa 0:35
how to carry less and enjoy motherhood more.
KC 0:39
Let me tell you that this conversation we're about to have, which to the audience, I have not prepared Erica at all for what I'm about to ask or what I'm about to say. But it's just so timely, because I've been having an interesting go of it on my tick tock channel, and I wanted to give a theory to you. And I wanted you to tell me what you thought about it and then maybe share some of your knowledge from writing that book about what you think might be going on. Okay.
Erica Djossa 1:04
I'm excited. Yeah,
KC 1:07
so I've had two videos go pretty big recently. The first is one where I talk about how I don't play with my kids. Mm hmm. Now that's the clickbait title. The nuance of the video basically says that I don't play pretend I have extricated myself as a pretend playmate of my children. We still are playful together, we read books, and we go on walks, and we go to the backyard and we'll play games and you know, do all sorts of fun things together. And we are playful, right? Like I tickle them. I yesterday, I was hosing them off in the backyard. And we were like making a game of it. So people were very angry. And there's a subset of people who were really angry because they had some childhood trauma around their parents not being interested in them not playing with them. That's not who I'm talking about. Right now. There are some people kind of misunderstood what I said, which is fair, I made it clickbait for a reason. But there was this interesting, like third category of people who were irate on Twitter on Tik Tok. One of the things that I said in the video is I talked about my that my day that day, and I said, you know, my kids have been interested in the solar system. So we spent this morning talking about the solar system. And then we I took them to Michael's and we bought a bunch of craft supplies. And we came home and we painted like a scale of a model of the solar system altogether. And then we hung it up from the ceiling. And we talked about how we went and turn the lights off on one of our rooms with a flashlight, we talked about how day and night happens. And then that afternoon, their dad took them to a bookstore and bought them a book about the solar system. And I talked about how that happened that day. And I said and now like their dad just set them up a science experiment in the shower, they're going to take a shower, and when they're done, they're going to be expected to go play independently, and me and my husband are gonna get in bed and eat some Indian food. And I'm gonna read a book for a couple hours. And part of the response that was really interesting to me were people that were really angry specifically about the idea that I was going to read a book, one tweet in particular retweeted me and was like, this is that woman that would rather eat Indian food and bed then play with her kids. That woman, that woman Yeah, comments on videos like future videos that have nothing to do with that about where I would like review a book. And they'd be like, Oh, so this is what she'd rather read these books. And they're like, fantasy books that had sex scenes, or like, she's just reading porn instead of playing with our kids. And what's so interesting is like, some of those digs were people that were like, she's gonna go eat Indian food and bed instead of play with her kid. And I'm like, I'm sorry, you're angry at me for eating lunch, eating lunch and reading a book, like those were the things I was doing when I said like, No, I won't play with my kids. And but I've like established a culture where I can read a book. And I started to realize, like, wow, there's like a subset of people. And I don't want to discount there are people that just had disagreements about parenting philosophy, but there was like a strong subset of people, many of the men who were just irate that I would do something for myself if it meant telling my children No. Which
Erica Djossa 3:56
is mind boggling and exactly how we find ourselves in this crux of maternal mental health crisis. And yet, look at the way that people are trying to police us back into this intensive mothering ideation, right? When it comes from a lot of other moms. It's like it makes others who have really hook line and sinker bought into the idea that motherhood equals martyrdom and I have to put everybody's needs above my own and I've shelved all my interest. I haven't been able to read a book I've been so self sacrificing and put everybody else first so to see somebody have something for themselves to see somebody carve out boundaries and say no, this next 45 minutes or hour or whatever is mine and I'm going to do what I want with it. Well, you independently play it look great on the anger and loss of all those unmet needs that we've had to shelf and put aside and then when we see other people kind of like living in their freedom and motherhood, we don't know how to process that right because we think motherhood equals self more to them. And when we see somebody that is not operating in that way, it's we almost like attack to defend ourselves and our position and being right.
KC 5:07
And what was interesting is like, if I just said like my kids independent play while I read a book, most people will be like, Oh, wow, like, I wish I had that. I wish I could do that. I'm drowning. But the moment that I said that, like, the way that I got there was by saying no, like, they would come and say, we play with me. And I'd say, No, thank you. I'm gonna sit and read a book. And they go and go, Well, can I sit with you? And sometimes I say yes. And sometimes they say, No, thanks. Like, I want to sit by myself. Like when they hear that the actual process. I mean, they're young kids, like they will take up every second of your day, if you let that, right. Like when you tell them that that process involves your children being uncomfortable or feeling a momentary discomfort, like that's when people lose their minds. Because a lot of people project that like if that child feels discomfort in that moment, it's going to be some lifelong trauma about their mom doesn't want them. And that I think is what gets our hooks into us is like what? Right, and but then the second video that I've been getting a lot of flack for there. And again, there's a good portion of people that I'm not talking about was it was about training my dog, right. So we have a Rottweiler mix, she's 10 months old, we sent her away to boarding train for six weeks. Now, the real reason we did this was because we had two vacations in that six week period, and we were constructing a pool in our backyard, and she was anxious mass, and we didn't want to border with people we didn't know or do dogs that are so you know, my trainer who doesn't even do boarding trains was like, Well, okay, I'll do this for you. And so she came back. So she came back. And a lot of people hated that approach. Because, you know, we use an E collar and they don't like E collars and things like that. That's fine. That's just like legitimate differences in dog training philosophy. However, I want to talk about this subset of responses I got from people that were like, How dare you send your dog away, you are a lazy person. If you didn't train your dog yourself, I can't believe you didn't train them yourself. You don't know what happened to them. When you said that it was like this. I was so surprised at the amount of people they weren't mad at the E collar. They weren't mad that they were mad that I sent her to board and train and I didn't do it myself. And for some reason I just connected the to where it was like, This feels like the same thing. Like, it's not just anger. It's shame, like Shame on you for not doing it all yourself, shame on you. Like you're taking the easy way out. You're lazy. And I was like, This is how it happens. Like moms get this message that anything they don't do. It's not Oh, I just didn't prefer it. It's not right. Like if my husband decides he doesn't like to mow the lawn and hires a yard person. Nobody tells him like you're such a lazy dad, right. And yet, if you read a book during the day, or you send your dog to board and train so that you're not doing, you know, hours and hours and hours of dog training, not that I actually do hours of dog training, but you don't I'm saying like you get help. I was like God, this is how it happens. It's really interesting,
Speaker 1 7:59
the parallel between the two and I do think that there is this mothering or parenting role in being a dog owner that people sort of project on to you. And when we talk about intensive mothering being a set of ideology, or like the norms that we are sort of breathing and living in in motherhood, there's a couple of them that are really woven in here put placing a child's wants needs desires above our own is one of them, like a child's needs should always come before our own is a pillar in the intensive mothering ideology. And then the other is that being a good mom means I have to give all of my emotional and mental psychological and physical energy towards my children and my role. So this is where we see a real shift towards all of the most labor intensive practices being glorified and looking as though they are what make us a good mother like sourdough bread.
KC 8:56
I'm looking at you making your own baby puree because I fell into that trap for a week. Right?
Erica Djossa 9:01
And it's there's this like falsehood, this myth in there that the more time constraining or the more time sucking it is, or the more labor intensive it is, the better it is for my child, or the more it shows I love them or the more it makes me a good mom. And that's just some bullshit like that is just not at all what the research says makes a strong healthy attachment which you know, you're like, deep in this research right now. Nothing about pouring from an empty cup literally trying to wring out blood, sweat and tears equals being a good mother. And that's not what our children need. Because when we are operating from that place, I am snippy I am Rayji I am not someone you want to be around, I can't be present for our we do like our five to 10 minutes of really just independent I've got three boys they're always talking over each other. So we get our tuck ins that bed and we talk about the day we recap and body questions from questions, all the questions and I can show them be present during that time. I'm if I haven't taken care of myself made sure I've had a bit of a breather going into bedtime routine because I'm just going to want to hightail it out of there which some nights we do, because motherhood, but I don't have anything left to give. No,
KC 10:12
that's such a huge thing that I noticed too is like when I was in that burnout period, in that give everything period, what happens is that like you start like shorting out emotionally where you can't be present, and you're irritated. And then though I would feel guilty that I wasn't giving enough, and I'd be like, my kids need me. They need me to show up. I'm not and they need more. So what would happen is I would think, because I'm not giving enough, I need to give more, and I would just keep pushing myself, show up, show up. Don't check out don't check out show up. Stop yelling, stop yelling show up. You want to play? Yes, you want to play? I should say yes. Yes. Do you want to play? Yes, I should say yes. Can I help in the kitchen? Yes, I should say yes. And it's like you feel like because you know, you're not giving enough emotionally or by way of attachment, you should be getting more, but you're just like pushing and pushing. And I remember when it flipped, realizing that I actually needed to give less, and that if I gave less, I could give more, if that makes sense. Like I could give more meaningfully in ways and the other thing you said that you talked about how like we're not going to show up before snapping and snapping all these things. That's the other thing is that people come up with these false choices where they say, you know, you're not like being your kids pretend playmate, you're not like, you've pretty much decided you're not like their playmate at all and like, but wouldn't it be so nice. Like, it's so nice when parent when your child can experience that and it's like they act like my choices or be the mom that says yes, all the time, be the mom, that is the fun playmate all the time, and not be that mom and go read a book like that those were the two choices that I had. And I chose the one that meant I wasn't a fun mom play playmate, right, and people don't really like that those were not my choices. Like my choices were the burnt out mom trying so hard to be the playmate that hated it. Because I felt like I couldn't concentrate. Like I couldn't connect like I was pouring from an empty cup, or be the mom with really strong boundaries, who instead of showing up at 30% capacity 100% of the time now can show up at 90% capacity 50% of the time.
Erica Djossa 12:20
Mm hmm. And it really is this all or nothing thinking of you are you equal this because of one singular decision that you made. That is shame that says in this one moment, I made this bad choice therefore I the being and bad i the whole mother and bad versus operating out of more of a constructive guilt that says wait a minute, I made a bad choice in this situation. And I can try and do better next time. So when somebody takes a look one isolated situation, which happens on social media all the time and attributed to your entire character and being we are operating in this all or nothing shameful space. And my question to people is really, what is it that we are trying to accomplish here? Is it that we have to be 100% on 100% of the time, like what is the goal or the expectation? Is they nobody
KC 13:15
would say oh yes, all the time. But then beyond that, everyone thinks that whatever percentage or time is like golden, and anyone under that is like the worst mom ever. And I want to go back to when you talked about bedtime, because bedtime has become my barometer, my best feedback loop because I went from experiencing teken bedtime, like I was, I saw this cartoon one time, and it was a woman talking about she's an autistic mom, she has an autistic child. And she talked about how when she gets done with bedtime, it's gonna make me cry, she said, that's when I break for the surface. Like, that's when I like I swim for the surface so I can finally breathe because of how hard it is to be an autistic mom and to meet all of the needs of a child, you know, as they need it. And I remember that feeling where you're just like, you don't want to be there and you're rushing through it and you're trying to hold it together. And you're snippy and you're snappy, and you just want to get them to pet so you can break for the surface. And what happened when I started having some really strong boundaries, even ones that I kind of felt a little guilty about was that all of a sudden, I would get to the end of the day, and I was 100% calm during bedtime. I could put in the minutes that they needed. I could read the extra book, I could ask them about their day. I could remain patient as they struggled to fall asleep and that has become my like barometer for like how I'm doing and how I'm holding boundaries for myself is that like I need to make it to the end of the day being a good enough mother. And like you said, we're all moms like it doesn't mean that I'm never at the end of the day stressed or frustrated because life is life. Yeah.
Erica Djossa 14:56
And it's very much the same for me. I haven't Taking care of my needs throughout the day, or if I've had a stressful day or if I've been in meetings or I'm on a crunch line or like, you know, all the contributing factors, I wear that into the bedtime routine. And like this isn't to get confused with I was a mom at home for 12 to 18 months with three boys three and a half and under I clawed my way to naptime and bedtime, right like that, like that was a different stage in parenting, where it was like even just a shower or feel remotely human, I would, you know, that is a different experience than still, you know, as we start to gain some independence and our children can independently play or they can entertain themselves. And they're, you know, more more independent, that we are still sacrificing that time or we are still constantly in that self martyrdom. So I follow a similar pattern to you being able to just stop and reflect at the end of the day and see what the contributing factors were, I actually had a really, really interesting conversation with Susie from busy toddler, I don't know if you know, she's all play. And she was on the podcast. And she was describing to me like these kind of like different wars and things that break out in the play community and all that's all the philosophies, and there's all the opinions, and she focuses a lot of independent play. And that's what we were talking about. And we made the connection between playing intensive mothering during that time, like we do not have to curate all the experiences, we do not have to read a story every single night, we do not have to accept every invitation to play or constantly be setting up invitations to play and even be ahead of our children. Because they're capable of doing it on their own, they can find like a stick and a rock on the ground and go into independent play. Like it's not something we need to curate and facilitate for them. And it's not something that needs to involve us in that when it does actually involve us like it changes the dynamic of the play, like their imagination and their creativity doesn't get to like they're looking at us and like asking for reassurance and the whole dynamic changes for them. So coming out of that conversation was really interesting, where it kind of gave the audience and everyone myself even permission to be like, wait a minute, I can say no, right. And I'm the type of mom like you, I will curate all the slime making experiences, I will play all the like structured board games, I will plan an adventure all day long. But like independent or pretend play with Paw Patrol figures all day long is just not my jam, you know. So there's so much in there that we can do our own way.
KC 17:32
One of the things that I have started playing around with is, you know, I'll sometimes take extended periods to do something where I'll say, Okay, I'll, I'll do that in a minute. I'll do that in a minute. So I don't like I don't think that we need to be jumping up every three minutes, just because the kid says something, however, like, so we've been going out in the backyard to play because the weather is beautiful. And my kids go play and I bring a book with me. And one of the balances that I've been playing with is that if you come to me while I'm reading my book, and you want to show me something, or you want to tell me something about your play, I focus on being like really responsive to that. Like, I feel like I click the book that Kindle off, I put it down and I get on my knees and I look at it. Or if you say come look at the I get up and I go look at it right. And again, I'm not talking about like being beholden to every three minutes or whatever, right? And I come look.
Erica Djossa 18:15
And I like every interruption. It's not every interaction. Yeah, right.
KC 18:19
But I can be excited. I feel and I'm genuinely excited of like, wow, cool. Oh my gosh, and let me ask questions. And then when that little moments over like I go back to my book, but when my kid comes to me with play problems, like she has a map and I don't have a map, sometimes I will do like, Hmm, well, maybe you could get that. Or maybe you could get that. But more and more what I've started to say is like, you know what, you're so creative. I bet you'll figure it out. And then she'll go, but I don't know what to do. I know. But you know what, go play. I say it playfully. But yesterday uttered this phrase. And I was like, oh, maybe that's my phrase. If she was saying like, I really want the Paw Patrol to have a scooper. But this doesn't work as a scooper. What can I use as a scooper. And I just looked at her and I like very lovingly said, Baby, I don't solve plate problems. You are one of the most creative person I know goes off your plate problems, okay. And she went and turned around. And then you know what, she sold her play problem. She found something and then ran back to me with excitement in her eyes and went, Mom, I can use this as a scooper. And I was and I again, I get give her that 100% attention that genuine response of like, see, that is such a good idea. And then she turned tail and ran back to her sister to play and I was like, Ooh, this might be a balance that works for me. Like I don't need to solve your play problems. I don't need to solve your boredom. I don't need to say yes to all the invitations to come and join. But I will make it a habit to say yes to as many invitations to look observe wonder bask be proud. Demonstrate. Like I'll say yeah, I can say yes, enthusiastically to those things. If I'm saying no confidently to these other bids.
Erica Djossa 20:02
And I will frontload that time where we maybe spend five minutes or 10 minutes to play a game something you know, and then send off to play because it feels like it's filled their cup first. So they're less prone for those constant bids and asking you to join. But it's so important I used to work in children and family practice with kids before I got in the whole motherhood niche. And lay is one of the places that our children learn how to solve problems as you're describing. It's also a place where they learn distress tolerance, and how to manage their frustration and their big feelings. And if a parent is always involved in their play, and they're always seeking their parents to solve their problem for them, they actually don't build coping skills to manage their distress. Like if we're constantly alleviating, and stepping in and fixing and taking every bit and all of that it doesn't create a safe environment to allow the space to learn the skills and you to be able to model and say I believe in you, I'm confident in your ability to see this through, I'm here to support you always. And I know you can figure it out, that is such a healthy space to create, to make mistakes, to ask questions, to figure out how to deal with our frustration when this freaking Tower just keeps falling over. And we can't figure out how to get that piece to just fit in there correctly. And this is where I start to see a lot in my like eight plus years going into tween teenage years, when we've had parents who have really been overly involved the anxiety and lack of confidence that their children would then bring in to me in later years because they didn't have the experience or the practice of building that confidence. Look, mom with beaming pride, I solved this problem for myself building confidence in her ability to solve issues for herself, right. And when we don't practice that, then we get you know, down the road. And I'm working with kids and teenagers who want to call their parents between every break at high school because they can't, you know, independently cope through a distressing situation. One of
KC 22:12
the things that you said earlier was you talked about how a lot of this comes from a misunderstanding of what creates a healthy attachment. So I wondered if you could talk for a minute about what do we know does create healthy attachment? And how is that different from some of the societal messages? And then the second question I want to ask is, I'll forget is where's the room in this for us as moms to have unique and different personalities, because there's a lot of people that would say, I love to play with my kids. And there's a lot of people that would say, that's not my favorite part of motherhood. And then there's some that would say, you know, I am fine with being I love to be touched a lot. And then there's some that say like, I really dislike touch. And so those are kind of my two questions for that. One is like, you know, if you are the parent, like like, we're not all carbon copies of each other? And how do we do that? And then I will have a third question, which I might also forget. So I'm gonna say it too. Mm hmm. Which is, when we talk about being over involved in motherhood, do you think that some of that comes from like, we don't have good models for how we're supposed to grow as a mom. So like, when I have a newborn, that is 24/7 365, all through the night, I am giving every ounce of myself, I quite literally cannot even get a bite to eat some days, right? And then they grow a little bit more, and it's still it's 24/7. Now I can maybe get a bite to eat, but I can't get a shower. And then they're independent. Now it's I cannot take my eyes off of them. So I'm hyper vigilant all day long. And I do need to play and I do need to interact. And I do need to do these things all the time. And what it seems like is it's like, we stay in that space, right? Like, I'm not trying to deny that there is a time in early early childhood where you are on 24/7 Because you have to be but it seems like the disagreement comes like when can you begin to differentiate like buy back that space and those boundaries and reassert your own identity and all those sorts of things. So those are my three things. I feel free to any order you'd like to take them. Yeah,
Erica Djossa 24:21
I actually think like the overinvolved and the attachment ones are kind of woven together because there is this measuring stick or criteria by which sort of society or we or social media think makes a good mom overly attentive. You know, again, the self sacrificing we've been talking about accepts every bid doesn't set boundaries with her own children does the most labor intensive tasks like all of that, and we've got this measuring stick also, like children sleep perfectly and behave perfectly and all of that and we think that if we can check off those boxes, that's what's going to create these Thrive Being healthy children down the road. But really the things that form a healthy attachment according to research are safety, security, reliability, dependability, over a duration, like a long duration of time, like consistently knowing you have a safe home and somebody that you can come to and that they will always show up for you. I asked my oldest actually, like, what does love feel like we have these? He's at this fun age, we get to have these like philosophical conversations, like, what does love mean? Or what does it feel like? Or how do you know you're loved, and he's like, love feels like, you know, like, knowing that you're always going to be there for me when I need you, or that I can tell you anything. And like, you will accept me and it will be okay. You know. And so we have this idea that our attachment with our children is fragile, and any little decision we make will just shatter it to the ground and traumatize them forever. But it's actually so much more like a rubber band that has a lot of give and pull and room for error and room for mistakes. And when I do get snippy and cranky, I come back around the next day, and I repair and have a conversation with you. And that model is how we can mend relationships and all of that. So those are the things that's really start to build a secure attachment, like openness to repair, being emotionally attuned, that doesn't mean being overly attuned to every micro movement of the day, it means just like being able to see needs and be responsive to those needs, emotionally and otherwise. So I think that really evaluating our measuring stick. And what we think is building a healthy, secure relationship with our child right now is being available every second one of those things, playing with them whenever they want one of those things, because we need to reevaluate it. And one of the things that I think plays into the differing moms and the different expressions of motherhood is we create our own measuring sticks according to our values. And I walk through this in the book with a value sort and a values list like I am kind of on this crux of a motherhood book and a parenting book, because I'm trying to undo all of the myths and beliefs and you know, societal norms that you have learned and allow you to fill the vacuum with things that you actually value versus things that have been prescribed to you by like a philosophy or things you see on social media. And in order to do that, we have to tune into our values as a parent, and build our own criteria for what it means to be a good mom and evaluate ourself by that. And this is where I'm trying to understand when they're saying, you know, you don't play or like what what is the goal? Like, what are they trying to accomplish here? Because there's usually like a value underneath the things that we are sort of criticizing of others, or we're seeing so for example, family dinners, and whether people sit in front of the TV or they sit up to the table, what are we trying to accomplish? What is the value of sitting up to a family dinner? Is it connection? Is it presence? Is it you know, attunement, or check in for the day, like, what is it and the expression of that value doesn't equal family dinner, it doesn't have to be that so when I know, for example, as a mom that I value slowness in my family life, because my business life is crazy, and I value openness and acceptance, you know, to talk about anything and to feel supported, and I value adventure. And you know, I get a little like itch and Twitch, when we haven't gone and done something experiential as a family in a while, then I start to build out my own expression of motherhood to suit that image and that measuring stick and then when I see somebody cooking, I don't know, I saw something on tick tock where it was like, it's gonna take, I don't know how many days to make this entire meal from scratch. And it was like bread and all the fixings and all the jams and all the thing that went into the burger or the sandwich was like all homemade, and it took them like a week, and it was glorified, that it took this long to make this meal when I look at that, and I see that that's being sort of glorified as being a good mom, I can tune back into my measuring stick in my value system and say, Listen, I actually really value convenience because of the lifestyle that I live. And I am more than happy to buy that loaf of sourdough from the bread or from the bakery. But it doesn't mean that you can't do you because that's what you value and that's what is important to you. And this is the nuance that gets so smothered and stifled out in social media is that there's no room for these various expressions like there's no we don't allow space for people just show up differently in their own way. It's policing people back into these norms constantly. I saw it
KC 29:38
tick tock where somebody said did you have bedroom parents or living room parents? And she was like, you know, I just recently realized like, you know, I had bedroom parents like, that's where they hung out like they were in their bedroom. And you know, my friends have living room parents like their parents in the living room, and they were more of a like, let's all hang together whereas my parents were bedroom parents like they would be in their bedroom. I'm reading a book or watching TV or do whatever like that was their like place that they children like we would be in our room or in our playroom. And it wasn't. And it was interesting because she wasn't sharing it as the one was better than the other. She was like, I love my bedroom parents, like we went in there all the time and snuggled with them. And then we went and played and they'd come out and you know, make some lunch and blah, blah, blah. And it got me thinking about that idea. Because I was like, I mean, I'm kind of a bedroom parent on Saturdays. Like, that's what my husband like. That's what we like to do. And we have a large bedroom, and it's downstairs. So like, the other thing we don't we don't talk about enough is how the layout of your home affects what kind of mother you are, and how people interpret what kind of mom you are. Because if I say I read a book in bed, while my kids played in the playroom, or I slept in, while my kids played in the playroom, and you have a home where your bedroom is upstairs and your kids, you're picturing them playing downstairs by that, like, that's a totally different thing than understanding that, like my bedroom is a full suite that is Off the living room that opens to the living room, right, it's
Erica Djossa 31:00
on the main level, and any of the bedroom parents that I can think about that I knew growing up and like friends and whatever, had rooms off the main level, like bungalow style living, right, whereas I My bedroom is on the second floor was kind of tucked in the back of the house, I wouldn't like here, the kids mind you, they're at an age now where I'm like, Go find yourself some cereal and stop fighting and making noise like now that's fine. And they can do that. But like there's so many different values. Like I also we have a rule that our kids don't exit their room before. 7am do not show up to me before 7am. Like, unless you need to, you can come out and go pee or if there's like an issue or whatever, of course, but it's like you can play quietly, you can whatever. And it's just set a norm in our house. And it's just kind of expected it's not harsh. It's not mean they know they sleep in it gives them time they do whatever like it is okay for us have different expressions. And this is when we don't allow that. And when we criticize so heavily. And I really see it as like surveilling and policing back into these, whether it's gender norms, or intensive mothering norms, when we don't allow space for this, we are all drowning in plain sight. And we're not allow it like anyone who tries to wait like swim ashore or like, like, do something differently to like, get some help. We're gonna burried them and like force them to drown alongside of us, like, what are we doing, you know,
KC 32:20
there's so much freedom in the idea that like, you could be a good bedroom parent, and you could be a good living room parent, and not to this extreme of like, like you can do that and be like, and I also make an effort to make sure that there are parts of the day that I go out and make sure that I'm sitting in the living room, even though maybe I wouldn't otherwise, or that I'm sitting with my kids or that we're doing that. Like it doesn't mean you stop making an effort or that you're only thinking of yourself, but I just have found so much freedom and leaning into my own personality and finding ways that my personality can be the best mom. Like my favorite phrase, when when people try to hate on me online is like I'm called to be the best mom that I can be not the best mom you can be. And like it really helps me when I hear people adults talk about their mom, like they'll say things like, you know, my mom was a bedroom mom, and she was a great mom. Or they say like my mom, like was a mom that needed her space sometimes. And sometimes she would go outside and she would say nobody follow me and she would sit and we just knew that about our mom, we just knew that our mom was a mom that needed space, but they say it with this full throated healthy attachment. And I'm like, that's a mom that worked with her brain and with her personality to be a good mom and form a good attachment. Like my mom was an attorney. And like I went from like, I went to school at eight and she picked me up at 6pm every day of my childhood, right? But then we went to Chili's and had a meal together and talked and came home. And my mom also was not a playmate, mom, but my mom was also the mom who like when I wanted to know what all the lyrics were too part of your world from Not that that's Ariel, whatever the song is in Aladdin, and back then, like we only had VCRs right and no Internet, and she would have to play it, pause it write down what we could hear and then rewind it and do it again. And I mean, it took us an hour to write down every lyric, but like that's the memory and I'm so grateful that I had a mom that went I'm not the playmate, Mom, I'm not the I'm waiting at home with cookies when you get off the bus at 330 mom like I am the I value my career Mom, I am the I value financial stability mom, which is why she went to law school at 33 Right? I am the I want to talk to you and be your confidant mom I am like and she was able to be the best mom she can be and it was absolutely good enough. Like I didn't I don't have this heartache or trauma that nobody was home when I got off the bus or you know, she never played with me. And it also makes me wonder of all of those comments that I did get because it was like 5050 The people who would be like my mom never played with me and I'm fine and we have a great relationship my best friend and then the ones that were like my mom never played with me and to this day I don't talk to her or my mom never played to me and it was deeply traumatizing. And my mom never put in house Like, this is so interesting, this is so interesting,
Erica Djossa 35:03
as if the play was what was traumatizing. Let's unpack probably all the other emotional things that were there like, because if your mom didn't have the capacity to sit down on the floor and be present with you, I highly suspect there were other stressors and things in her life like, and I work in the maternal mental health space with the prevalence of undiagnosed mental health challenges and anxiety and depression that we can't show up as moms because we are suffering ourselves. So it's not, it's like the play equals the trauma. I'm gonna call my own thing. So on that one, let's just you know,
KC 35:38
and what's interesting about that is that I had this moment. And I want to be careful here because mother wounds are deep, and they deserve kindness, and they deserve a gentle touch. And I'm going to do my best to speak the truth gently. If you are an adult with mother wounds, and you are allowing those mother wounds to project shame onto mothers that you don't know, you have become the part of society that we're talking about that upholds these types of rules, like you are participating in the patriarchy when you see it mom somewhere, and you let your own triggered trauma or your own projection of what you experience out into. You're a bad mom, you should feel shame for this because my mom didn't meet my needs. And something you're doing reminds me of something my mom did like we become like society is not some maskless mask like faceless people like it's us, and wounded grown up children were some of the most vehement haters in my comment section. And it wasn't just wow, this makes me feel something. Wow, this is really bringing up something for me, it's this immediate grab to your shitty mom. And you'll regret this one day
Erica Djossa 36:53
over, saying that you say no to imaginary play, like it is mind boggling. But when we carry those traumas, or those unresolved issues into adulthood, or into motherhood, we carry around this like unmet need that we expect others to soothe for us. And I've talked about this so many times on the podcast and things because when we enter into parenthood, whether we think we've resolved our issues or not, right, we end up like straddling our past in a way that is so in parallel with our present and our future. And how could my mom do this? Or how can my dad do this? Or how I'm looking at this human? And how could I have experienced this trauma and like we relive it from a different vantage point. And sometimes I see this come out in unmet needs and not being cared for. We martyr ourselves for love and acceptance, and then our partner doesn't meet our needs or care for us in the way that we care for everybody else, and we hope to be cared for. And it's like, we have to radically meet our own needs and not put this responsibility on others. And actually, Maura Gladstone wrote a book called needy talking about this very concept of like, needs are healthy, it is great to be needy, but like we need to be an advocate and like a radically take responsibility for those needs and getting them met not say, Hey, Casey, you because of my trauma, you need to adhere to what I think a good mom looks like. Because this is painful for me to watch, right? And these traumas, start to set our rules for how we live as parents ourselves. So I had TV watching dinner parents, now I want to be the sit at the table and eat parents. And it's like, because of like a trauma, we set these rules, or we set these values or we set these expectations for our sounds. And my question always is, okay, why and what is the purpose? What is the value here, if you've adopted a value out of your experience that is important to you, then that's great. We tack that into our criteria by which we make decisions, but it is not rigid. And it is not, you know, I must accept every invitation to play like, that's just not how values get translated out into our lives.
KC 39:18
I also think like the most powerful advice I ever got was like, it's not your job to be the parent that you needed growing up. It's your job to be the parent your kids need. And you know, I find that there's this interesting phrase where people say protect your piece, and it makes it seem like life is coming at you and all you have to do is hold the line and my experience as a mom who is neurodivergent who hit burnout who had to Mother through the pandemic with a newborn my experience now for where I am, is that like I there was no peace to protect. Like I have to voraciously, intensely unapologetically claim my peace
Erica Djossa 39:58
pursue it see can't protect it. Yeah.
KC 40:01
And that means requiring that the other people in my family compromise, and that it's not just me compromising, and I'm not asking anyone to do anything that hurts them or damages them, but like there's a big difference between something that damages and something that is uncomfortable, you know, and like, Yeah, I'm gonna require that my kids know how to play independently and that they know that their mom's not the playmate mom, and I'm going to use all the energy that that gives me to be the best kind of caregiving mom that I can be and I'm going to you know, require that my dog is trained in such a way that it knows how to do nothing in the house and it gives my kids space and it's not a super high maintenance animal because that's what I need and I think it makes people very uncomfortable to watch a mother do that
Erica Djossa 40:56
well, and I think that how we do that like is sort of assumed or deducted like oh you're so mean you're so whatever I turn down and say no to more play invitations and I say yes to and it's I really would love to play with you right now. Mommy has to make lunches for school but we're gonna get our time to play X like I am the we have structure you know when you can expect time with mommy again type of Mom You know what I mean? Like you can have it at bedtime you know, over the weekend the kids are always like okay, what's on the like, what are we doing? Are we making slime? Are we coloring are we work what's going on this weekend, so they know when they will get time with me next and what that will look like and we collaboratively discuss what that will look like and in the in between they know that I also multifaceted person that has a book coming out in a company to run and a relationship and three siblings to try to you know, give attention to we've got hockey, like all of the things and so there's something here about how not all noes are equal either like your traumatic no or your mom who was checked out who didn't play with you or your mom who was at capacity is struggling with mental health. And you know, you felt neglected is not the same as a honey, I would love to play with you right now. But Mommy has to make lunches so you've got food in your tummy at school, those things are not equal, you know. And so how we set boundaries and how we have these conversations to bring structure in matters. And it's so freakin healthy for our families and our kids to do this.
KC 42:29
And I feel like that same with touch. Like a lot of moms, we struggle with being touched out, like getting more comfortable with when you know the question like, can I sit in your lap being? No, no thanks. Just a warm like No thanks, not now. So that when they do crawl in my lap, it's not just okay, they can be on my lap, it's you can be my lap. And I'm going to put down what's in my hand, and I'm going to sneak my little arms around you and I'm going to give you kisses. I'm going to lean back and I'm going to tickle you and tease you or I'm going to put down what I have while you're in my lap. And let's read a book together. Like that's what people don't get. It's it's like it's a balance. It's an ongoing experiment, right? Because as soon as you think you've nailed it, your kids get older and they have different needs. But it's like this ongoing experience of how much space do I need to claim for myself in order to show up as the best mom that I can be? And I think the part that's been so like tender for me is the realization that like, I might have to claim more space for myself than other moms. And that sometimes makes me sad. And some of that might be personality. I think some of that is trauma. I think some of that is still recovering from burnout two years later. But again, that's when I go back to my choices like what are my realistic choices? Because push through and try to be the best mom, someone else can be I know is not a choice, right? I know what that leads to. And so yes, you have to deal with all the feelings of Oh, are they getting? Do I say no, too much? Are they going to be sad? Are they going to insist what they're going to talk about on the therapy? Like, that's the thing about being a therapist, right? You're always like, is this gonna be what they talk about. But the reality is, is that like I have real human limitations, and they are different than what I thought they would be when I dreamed about being a mom. And they might be different a year from now. But right now, like being excited when my kids come home, and you know, paying 100% attention and asking them about their day and making a snack together and sitting outside and eating that snack together. And then having an expectation like a warm, competent expectation that now you go run and play while I watch you play on your play house or whatever. And I'll stop what I'm doing when you want to direct my attention to something cool. But you know, we'll do that for a while and then we'll head inside and we'll sit and do something together. And then I'll probably ask you to go play in your playroom and you'll run off and play and I'll sit and do what I need to do and then we'll come back together for a bedtime or a bath time and then you'll get 100% of me for that bedtime routine that you know. Yeah, I mean, could I flip a switch and be a mom that could do more? Like I guess if I had that magic I would but I just I don't
Erica Djossa 44:56
and it's real life like I'm also neurodivergent and it is ADHD and I was like 34, a couple of years ago. I also struggle with chronic migraines that we've been trying to troubleshoot, like chronic pain stuff. So my oldest will be like, Mommy, why are you always the one that gets sick and daddy doesn't get sick. And like he makes these like comments sometimes, right? Because there is just a different capacity that I can't push myself to or like routines that I have to try and keep to be proactive, and that it doesn't allow me to maybe show up the way that I would want to show up sometimes that we have these different expectations for how maybe we hoped or thought motherhood would be. And when it's not that the gap the size of the gap between that expectation and that reality really, you know, can create a lot of distress. But the thing when it comes back to the healthy attachment that we were talking about is really your child just wants to know when they're gonna get you to themselves next, and that they will get you to themselves tonight, and then they'll get you again tomorrow, and they'll get you again, the next day doesn't have to be right now in this very moment, you're juggling a billion things and you or I feel, you know, this can be a pain point for me, I have work insane hours in the day, the kids come home, I let them have tablet with their dinner because I need to decompress my brain before I can be a functioning human for my day. Because I work from home and their schools two minutes away, there's no decompress time in the in between there. And then that's a reset. And then we all kind of come alive again and do our evening routine. But then knowing there's something about this reliability, security, dependability, safety, I can't do it right now. But you know, we're going to do it later and building it into the routine starts to soften those nose over time to the point that my kids know and sort of expect what that routine looks like now, like it's not even something that really has to be vocalized anymore, which is
KC 46:43
really what I meant when I say I just said no for years, and they stopped asking exactly.
And people are like you which people
are like that you broke them. You broke them. And I'm like, No, they just, they're okay. And even if it hurts their feelings sometimes like, believe it or not like getting your feelings hurt by your parent is an important part of childhood. Like there's a difference between hurting and damaging. And, you know, it's wild, especially like the amount of comments that I got about like, my mom didn't play with me and I was traumatized. You know how many I got that said my dad didn't play with me. And I was traumatized.
Erica Djossa 47:13
I know. I know. That was one of my questions here. Yeah, like when
KC 47:18
we feel those wounds. It's like so one of my favorite podcasts is celebrity memoir book club. And they read celebrity memoirs, and then talk about it. And one of the things that they have observed and all the ones that they read is that people get really angry with their mom for like, whatever the mom didn't do, right? So it's valid a lot of the times like their mom did shitty horrible things. But they don't have that same anger for a dad. That wasn't present enough. And it's interesting, right? Because it's like, Dad, even if dad didn't show up enough dad didn't shoulder enough dad didn't do enough. Like, you have to be there enough to actually fuck up to create like that. And so unless it was a dad that like completely abandon, and there's like this abandonment wound, it's like, you can operate this space as a father Where You Are there enough to like check society's dad boxes, but not there enough to ever deal with feeling overwhelmed, over touched not knowing what to do burnt out, like so there's this weird like, because it was mom who heard us having to look at Ooh, but where was dad's play in that? And how different would mom have been if she had had a partner that could have shouldered some of that mother lode? Right? Yeah,
Erica Djossa 48:32
cuz I'm hearing about these like, bids for play and all these interruptions, and I'm like, there are two parents, and well, maybe there aren't. But in homes where there are, you know, my kids will leave her home on the weekend for the holiday. And the amount of times I heard mom in a two hour span of time, I'm like, I don't think I've heard dad yet. I think Daddy looks really comfy over there on the couch, maybe he wants to wrestle and cuddle like you know, and just trying to shift some of that ownership. And that's another part of this, when we free ourselves of these expectations. This is like really the crux of what my book gets that then we can actually give ownership to our partner in a different way and expect them to carry those pieces because I am not the sole responsible parent in this home to nurture play, to nurture and foster their emotional well being to field every freaking question that comes throughout the day, you know, but when we feel that the has to be so well you reinforce this and we hold on to it and it just it becomes a beast unto itself. Right? And it can really, really take over that. Yeah, well the
KC 49:37
last thing I want to say is for like, you know, when you were talking about migraines, and I actually developed chronic fatigue after my second and one of the things that I think about a lot is that people every day there are children and grownups with healthy attachments to their Disabled Parents. Hmm. Right like you can have a healthy attachment to a disabled parent that is not able to do it. What your minds view of parenting should look like and parenting? I think I would say motherhood is a mass disabling event. That's not I'm not being facetious like the amount of women who develop disabilities as a result of pregnancy and birth and child rearing is not something we talk about enough. But I think it helps me to remember that like, it soothes that voice that's like, if you make one wrong move, if you can't be everything to everybody, you know, you you can't lean into your personality, you got to do it the way that like whatever Suzy homemaker you're looking at, does it? It's like, that's not real life.
Erica Djossa 50:33
And like, what expectations like what makes us think that these are our kids expectations of us? Like, these are the stories we're telling ourselves, they're just asking, they will ask for everything, they will ask you to ship them to the moon, like they will ask for anything under the sun that they could possibly have. And that doesn't mean that this is now an expectation that we have to try to adhere to like what stories
KC 50:54
that's that confident knows part. Like when I'm saying anxious, knows, I'm telling them? Oh, this is something I should have said yes to, but I'm not gonna say it. And then they get this they have feelings about and it's like, yeah, they don't know,
Erica Djossa 51:06
right? I'm just telling myself a story about oh, they're gonna think that I'm the most awful because I turned down this pretend play session. No, like, they will ask for chocolate in the middle of the night, they will ask to go to Disneyland every week. Like they will ask for all of the things because they ask for things. They test boundaries. And this is how they learn. And this is what they do. And so I think also fact checking our stories like our we teach our children what motherhood should be and look like through our interactions with them. And so their expectations are largely formed by our expectations and how we show up and the boundaries and things that we set in our home. Right. So checking those stories that we tell ourselves that this is going to be some catastrophic, lifelong event and unpacking that and why we think that
KC 51:55
Erica, thank you so much for this conversation. It was so well timed, and I really appreciate it and it I think even brought some healing to me to have this conversation. And can you tell people where they can find you where they can get the book, all the good things about you?
Erica Djossa 52:08
Yeah, so I'm at Manuel on Instagram all.com on while podcast and that is a like a wraparound maternal mental health platform that helps support your transition to motherhood, all things emotional well being and support and the book is releasing the motherlode and it's all about these expectations and myths and beliefs that we've been talking about today that are so ingrained in us and our patterns and how we try to show up as good mums and motherhood and it's really debunking these assumptions and allowing you to build your own criteria for what is important to you and motherhood and that's really seeing the mother lode and it's anywhere anywhere books are sold Amazon the book website is Erica jossa DJO ssa.com lots of free companion things to pair with it as well. Thank
KC 52:55
you Erica so much
Transcribed by https://otter.ai