70: How to Coach Your Executive Functioning with Hannah Choi
Many people struggle with executive functioning skills, which are the mental skills that we use every day to learn, work, and manage tasks in daily life. My guest is Hannah Choi from Beyond Booksmart. She is an executive function coach who hosts Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast. She has over 20 years of experience working with students of all ages but currently focuses her coaching on college students and adults. Hannah was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and has spent her life trying to figure out systems to make things easier and less awful for those with executive functioning challenges. Join us to learn more from Hannah!
Show Highlights:
● An overview of Beyond Booksmart and what they offer through their coaching programs
● How Hannah explains executive function skills
● Why executive function skills are greatly impacted by our stress levels
● How working memory is impaired by executive function challenges
● The importance of figuring out the WHY of your struggle
● How Hannah works with someone with time blindness by using a BVA (budgeted vs. actual) tool
● Why you need to give yourself compassion as you identify your struggle and find workable solutions
Resources and Links:
Connect with Hannah Choi and Beyond Booksmart: Website and the Focus Forward Podcast
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC 0:05
Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. This is Struggle Care I'm your host, KC Davis. I'm here with Hannah Choi, and we are talking executive functioning today. So Hannah, before we get started, give us a little intro, a little background, why are you interested in executive functioning?
Hannah Choi 0:20
That's a great question. So it's funny, I think I can actually explain it better by starting with a recent thing that happened, I recently discovered, or through a variety of things that happened that I have ADHD. And so I was recently diagnosed. And so now when I look back on my life through that lens, I can absolutely see why I became so interested in executive function skills and supporting people who struggle with EF challenges, because I can just relate so so well. And so I have spent so much of my life trying to figure out systems that just make things easier and less awful. And then my sister was working for a company that does executive function coaching beyond booksmart, which is where I work now. And she was like, you know, I think this would actually be a really good fit for you. And so I started coaching people with executive function challenges, and through that whole process is how I discovered oh, wait a second. I'm like relating to these stories, a lot more than that's not coincidence. There's something else going on here. So yeah, so now I get to support people with similar challenges. And I get to do so much learning about different, you know, different ways of supporting myself and other people. And I'm just such a nerd about it. I just love it so much. Well,
KC 1:38
I'm excited to get into our conversation today. And I have a few things I want to ask you about, I definitely want to ask you about executive functioning coaching, I did an episode A while back about just like coaching in general, like the coaching industry is such the wild, wild west, you have the life coaches and the relationship coaches. And I think that one of the things that I've seen a lot lately is an influx of ADHD coaches and executive functioning coaches. And your company has been doing this for a long time, and does a lot of coaching for adults, but also children who are having academic issues and health and things like that. So I want to ask you some questions about like, what you think good executive functioning coaching looks like and what its goals are and what it's sort of intended to do and not to do. And then I also want to ask you, what, like the ways in which you help people understand what executive functioning is, because it's a really complex thing, but we're often not, I mean, like you and I aren't talking in the realm of like academics, and we're not giving papers and things. And so we're talking to just like regular everyday people and sort of breaking down that really complex subject. So those are kind of like the two main things. And then I thought we could get into some practical things at the end, if anybody just wants some practical tips. So let's start with coaching. Tell me a little bit about what that looks like. Like if I were to come to you as an adult and say, like, what is beyond booksmart? Do and like, what would if I just signed up? What would it look like? Well,
Hannah Choi 2:59
the thing that I love the most about coaching, and I think that this is probably a universal approach to coaching, I mean, at least I hope it is, is that as a coach, I really try and all of my colleagues to our main goal is to meet clients where they are and so we never like give extra worksheets or extra homework. And a lot of people will say that, like, you know, how much time commitment? Is this going to be? You know, am I going to have to, are you going to like, give me a workbook that I have to work through. And what's so beautiful about it is that we take people exactly where they are right where they are and say what are some things that we can do to support you where you are, I don't think that lasting change will happen unless you are able to do that. And so a good coach is going to meet that person exactly where they are without judgment without any unrealistic expectations and try to see that person for exactly who they are, where they are, what they need, what their pain points are, and what might give them some small wins to help build them build their like confidence back. So many of the clients that I have met with and my colleagues to their confidence has really been shot because they're like, Why do I suck at all this stuff? Like, why is this so hard for me? And so it's just so important, like there should be no shame involved, and no guilt and no unrealistic expectations. So it's a really, it should be I believe, it should be a really gentle approach with some challenge, like Yeah, I'm gonna push you a little bit and I'm going to ask you to try new things. It might feel a little uncomfortable, but it's going to be a really safe place. And it's okay, if you tell me you know what, that was awful. And I never want to do that again, or oh, this like kind of worked. But this part didn't work so we can work through it together. So a coach is like really a partner.
KC 4:48
Yeah. And one of the things that you're talking about, which I think is important, like when somebody there's different types of coaching styles and approaches and if you think about a coach I mean That's it's everything from again, people go to coaches for executive functioning, they go to coaches for relationship advice, they go to coaching for life advice, they go for career coaching, I'm working with a dog trainer right now. And like, that's coaching, like, that's somebody who's, you know, kind of knows what they're doing there. And there's really kind of almost two different camps. And they're not like opposing camps, I'm just like, two different ways of doing it, you have some coaching programs that are very structured, where it's like, okay, you know, like, I have a good friend that does a program for like relationships, and she was a relationship therapist for a long time. And then she decided, you know, I really want to do this as a more structured approach is more of like a coaching approach. And she because after going through years, and years and years of seeing clients, she's like, I'm just seeing like, the same issues, the same dynamics, I'm explaining the same things over and over. And so she kind of like took all that information and went, Okay, there's like eight different skills that people in this situation need. And so she created this curriculum, where it's like, yeah, we work together for six months, we move through these eight skills, she has various like exercises, and reflection questions and things like that. And that's very much agenda based coaching model, which is totally fine. But I don't know that everybody knows, that's one model of doing it. And then the other model of doing it is like what you're describing, where you don't have a preset path for someone to go through, you don't have preset exercises, or any of these things. That's where someone comes to you and goes, here's the issue that I'm experiencing, like, this is what I need to work on first, right? So if I come and say, I'm having trouble getting my laundry done, or I'm having trouble getting my homework done, you know, we start with whatever's kind of on fire in my life. And that's the basis for like, what skill we're going to start with first. Yep.
Hannah Choi 6:39
And I think I love that she developed that. And I think what that is probably the most effective for is people who are really ready, they're really ready. They know what they want to work on, they're ready to make that commitment. And many of the clients that I work with, they know there's something that doesn't feel good, they don't know what they need. And so I think there is a difference there. And so I love that there is something for everybody. And that's such a huge part of finding, what will work for you is taking the time to figure out like where am I in this process? Like how ready Am I to make change? Or am I more in sort of like a research, you know, like a fact finding mission sort of thing? You know, like, Am I just more about like discovery, or am I ready, I've discovered and now I'm ready. And so when I also think
KC 7:24
that there's this aspect of like, what like insight also, and not like, Oh, you have such insight, and so you're better. But like if I know exactly what the pain points are, and it's like, these are my pain points. It's doing my homework and doing my laundry and ABC like, that's what I want to do. I want to address those things. And I have maybe some insight on what the issues are and what needs to happen. And that's where I want to go, I really want to go with that approach of I want to bring it to the table. And that's what we address. But I also think like if you're someone who's like, Man, I don't really know what like, I just know, I want to get better at these skills. But I don't necessarily know, I might want to take a structured approach. Let me just run me through the whole thing, right? Like, it's one of these seven skills, or it's one of these seven things I'm also thinking about, you know, I'm also in recovery. And when I think about like the sobriety world, it's similar, like you can get a recovery coach that will have a like an approach like you're describing where it's like, we're gonna meet on a weekly basis, and it's what you bring, you know, what, what are you struggling with this week? What do you want to talk about this week, and then you can get a recovery coach, and the same with even like 12 Step sponsors, right? Who goes, Okay, actually, here's what it is like, there are 12 steps, and I'm going to take you through this kind of regimented approach. And by the end, we will have filled in all the gaps of what you need to move forward. And so I think there's this aspect of like, Okay, I'm ready. I don't need to do like a ton, like, I'm ready. And I'm pretty confident that it's like these things that I want to address. I'm either not ready to address anything outside of that, or I know I don't need to address things outside of that. I just want to go with that. Right. And some of its personality. Like I would think that, you know, if you're someone who is for example, like you're autistic and you really struggle with like a pervasive drive for autonomy, and you do not like demands and you do not like Right, like you're not going to want to go with someone who's like, Okay, now here's your homework. If you're someone who maybe has a lot of trauma around school, maybe you don't want to go with like, Okay, here's lesson one. Here's lesson two. And would you find there's a lot of overlap between people who are very hesitant or like maybe burned by a school approach when they come to coaching. Yes,
Hannah Choi 9:31
I see a huge look of relief on my clients, especially younger clients. I work with a lot of college students and I see a really big sigh of relief on their faces. When I say you are driving the bus here like this is you're the one who can make the decisions here and I'm going to do what you want to do and we're going to work on what you want to work on and so much of their life up until then has been do this do that you know and so structure And a lot of kids come in with learning disabilities or with ADHD or with autism. And so their life has been, you know, structured plus extra frustrating. And so learning that autonomy and learning that they can make those choices, it's a big deal. It's a big deal. And I love giving that to them. I love providing that space for them. It's exciting. It takes a while, but it's really exciting. And yeah, something that you said before made me think about so one of the executive function skills that is super, super helpful in life. I mean, they all are. But one of them that I find especially helpful is cognitive flexibility, which is like the idea of thinking flexibly. And when you can think flexibly, it's much easier to see that there's another way of doing something. And so if you are a person who tends to lean towards more rigid thinking, it can be harder to even imagine that something could be different from how it is now. And so a lot of we work on with clients is understanding that your future can look different than your present. And this effort that you're going to put in is worth it because you can we help them see this future that could be different. And so that cognitive flexibility is just so important. And it doesn't I don't think it gets supported enough in younger kids. Yeah,
KC 11:13
let's pause for just a second here from some sponsors, and we'll come back. Okay, so here's what I thought we could do if we can, like, get in a time machine and go back to when I started college. And because I imagine you get a lot of clients that are just starting college, because that's kind of like where shit starts to hit the fan sometimes. Exactly. It really does. And so like I would have come to you and I would have been like, Okay, I can't study, I do not know what I've never studied in my life. And it's never been a problem before now, because I would just listen to the lectures and do this. And and I've never really done any homework before. Now, because I just finished in class or I had study hall or I had my parents breathing down my neck, like first question is like, how do you explain to someone who maybe has never heard the term executive functioning? Like, what are they struggling with? What's going wrong? Like, do you have any easy definitions are metaphors that you use?
Hannah Choi 12:08
Yeah, a lot of people think that executive functioning is something to do with executives, and the word executive actually comes from execute. So they are the skills that help us execute our day. So they help us get through our day. So you can kind of think of it as like maybe the conductor of an orchestra, or you know, that like the boss of something, the boss of your brain. And so all these executive function skills just help us get through the day, like you and I both have clothes on. So we have some functioning executives, you know, some our executive function, that area of our brain is working, because you know, we showed up on time, and we have clothes on. And so first learning the area that you struggle in, and then learning how to address that with maybe some strategies or some tools that is the place to start. And I've lost track of you asked,
KC 12:58
I'm laughing that you said most of us think of executives because of executive functioning. But like when you think about it, executives don't see anything. Right? Right. Like they're like, oh, big picture, let's think let's meetings. Let's do this. And like, in reality, if we were to compare executive functioning to a role, it wouldn't be the executive, it would be the executive assistant.
Hannah Choi 13:21
Yes, it would be. Right. Right.
KC 13:23
Like there's always an executive assistant that's like this very, like she's not a secretary. She's not a receptionist, like she is this very sort of like, I mean, secretaries and receptionists can work on a high level, but like, she's like, a specific role for this executive that is, you know, he comes up with the idea. And then like, whatever little bitty steps that it actually takes to execute that idea are often passed off to the executive assistant or to whatever associate is underneath, right, like people who are not this prestigious role of executive. And it's just funny to me that like, oh, it's actually the executive assistant that's actually doing the executive functioning for this person, right? Like, okay, well draft that paperwork and schedule that meeting and call that person and you know, all these like little bitty I remember when I was in college, I did a theater degree, and I did a lot of costume design. And I got hired to do to be an assistant costume designer, and they sat me down and they were like, let me explain to you like the role of assistant costume designer, this is not about your ideas. This is not about your design. This is not like your job is to be like the functioning brain for this costume designer. You follow her around and you take your pen and paper and as she throws ideas out, you write them down. As she does this. You make sure that you follow up on that if she says we need to talk to somebody, you make sure you make that phone call and then three times a day you make sure she eats I'm not kidding, like and I ended up being really good at it, which is ironic. I'm great at functioning for other people for other people. Yes. Right because it was And then people would actually joke Her name was Katie, that I was her brain. And people would ask her questions, she was like, I don't know, ask my brain. She's like, I'm here to flow. I'm here to design and be creative, and all of these things. So I always think of that now, when we think about executive functioning is like that time I was someone's brain, you
Hannah Choi 15:17
were and that's such a great analogy, like if we go back to like what you were saying before. So if you can imagine that there's a person who's in charge of planning, and a person who's in charge of seeing other people's perspectives, and if a person who's in charge of thinking flexibly and organizing and paying attention, and so all of these executive function skills that we have going on in our brain, like maybe the person who's in charge of attention is not, you know, having their best day. And so that executive function skill is, you know, like, not on that day. And so, and then if you think about it, like we, our our executive function skills are directly impacted by our stress levels. And so you can imagine, if you are working in a very stressful environment, and you're in charge of paying attention, it's gonna be really hard to pay attention, because you're super stressed out, or, you know, maybe you have ADHD, or you have, you know, some diagnosis that makes it harder to do whatever, you know, whatever that is. So I love that analogy was really great. I
KC 16:14
was noticing in your bio, that you have listed what your executive functioning strengths are, and then what your executive functioning weaknesses are. And you mentioned that working memory is one of the ones that you struggle with. Yes. So can you give us like a layman's definition? I'm curious, I have like a metaphor that I love to use, but I'm like, I'm like collecting little explanations and metaphor. So tell me how you would explain to someone what like working memory is, or tell me how you would be able to know if someone like if I was your client, and I don't know, working memory, so I'm not gonna say I have problems with working memory? Like, what kind of things would you be listening for that would sort of like ding that in your head of like, this person might have working memory issues. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 16:55
So while working memory is the ability to take some information that you've been given whatever it is, and hold on to it long enough to do something with it, right. So you need to hold on to it long enough to file it away into long term memory. Or like, for me, I have to write it down, I have sort of like a rule, it's not a rule, it's a strategy, you either have to if you struggle with working memory, you have two choices, write it down or act on it. And it is really hard in the moment when you're like, I don't want to write it down. And I don't want to act on it, I want to just remember, but it doesn't happen. And I've actually spent a lot of my recent life forgiving myself for having a bad memory. And one thing that really attracted me to you is this whole idea of the fact that you know, care tasks are morally neutral. And I have been working very hard on teaching myself and others that executive function skills are also morally neutral. The fact that I have a poor working memory does not define me, it does not give me my value, it does not make me a bad friend, or partner or employee. And that is just hugely important. And so in order to succeed in life and feel good about myself, I have to use strategies to make up to compensate for my poor working memory, I don't have a choice, I don't have that third option of saying, I just want to remember. And so I can either beat myself up about it, that I've forgotten something, or I can forgive myself and say next time, I'm going to remember this, and I'm going to write it down, or I'm going to take action on it. And I do that multiple times throughout the day.
KC 18:32
Let me ask you this question. Just so my working memory doesn't forget this thing in my head. Why is it like, is it a part of the problem that like, I remember being in school, and every day, the teacher would give homework, and I would never write it down. And then of course, you know, you get home and you don't remember to do your homework. But the part that was so maddening was that like, every day, she would say what the homework was, and I would think to myself, will surely all remember that. Like, I'll definitely remember that. Like, I get the like, oh, I don't have good working memory, but like what is it that makes me so convinced every time that like this thing seems important enough that I won't forget it?
Hannah Choi 19:12
I'm not really sure. It may be the evidence that we have that we do remember things you know, we don't we haven't forgotten everything, you know, and so there are things that we remember. So we maybe we think, Oh, I'll remember that. I remembered that so I'll remember this, um, but I really think we need to consider what are we really interested in that thing I like I don't know about you. But for me, if I am really interested in it, then I'm going to remember it more. If it's something in the moment, I think I'm interested in or think oh, this is important, or I think I should be interested in this, then I'm probably not actually interested in it. So it is harder to remember. And also, you know, like at the end of class you are you've just sat down for an hour you have just showed extremely good self control for an hour. You have paid attention for an hour. You have processed information you have thought flexibly you've thought about Other people's perspectives, you've been using your memory. So for that hour, you are exhausted, your brain is exhausted even though you might not feel it. And so if your working memory is already challenged, now you're adding tiredness or distress or whatever to it. So yeah, and the moment you think, yeah, I am going to remember this. And yeah, right. Yeah, just really
KC 20:21
overestimating my abilities in that moment. Yeah, I always, I always used to tell people that like working memory, or like, your browser tabs, you know, like, you could be doing something here. And then Okay, time to do something else. And it's like, if you're not done with that thing, like, I'll leave the tab open, right? Like somebody one time told me about, like a journal article. And I was like, oh, I want to read that for my book. And I like pulled it up. But I didn't have time to read it. So I just left the tab open. And then it was time to put jump on a podcast, I pulled the podcast out, right. And I was also working on a Word doc. So that was up. And so I had these like multiple things open on my like Chrome browser, right? And so I don't have to, like consciously be thinking like these four things, I can just like, look at this little browser tab. And so you know, when I'm done with something, I can X out of the browser tab, and then the other ones are still there. And for me, like, I can only have one browser tab open at a time, right? So if I'm going to read this article, and I don't have time, and I'm like, well, I'll come back to it like, but as soon as I open up the tab to jump on the podcast with Hannah, it doesn't just fold the other tab neatly next to it. Like it just disappears. Do you don't I mean, like, Oh, whoops. And I remember asking, like a good friend of mine, like how she cuz I think that's the other part about executive functioning is like, you don't sometimes appreciate that not everybody is operating that way, especially if you have enough like compensatory strategies that you're kind of like getting by. And I asked her, like, when you're just like going through your day, you know, like doing work or taking care of kids or whatever. Like, what's that, like it blew my mind to hear like it is like I have several browser tabs open. And I can flip between them in my mind remembering these various things until I realized I don't need that tab and I x out of it. And I was like yours don't just disappear just like no, she's like, it's like a Rolodex in my head. And I was like, This is unbelievable. This is unbelievable. And what's funny is she's also neurodivergent. But she just doesn't struggle with working memory issues.
Hannah Choi 22:19
Right? Yeah. And that's something that's so important to remember is that whether you are neurodivergent or not, you are going to have areas that you're just great at, and some that you really suck at. And like, you know, like you said, that doesn't make you a good person or a bad person. It's just your brain. It is how your brain is built. And then like you said, you find you figure out compensatory strategies that support you in those areas, and they're not always going to work. And some days, you're going to be terrible at it. Regardless, even if you are like I wrote it down, and I still forgot, you know, it just happens. But I know I'm the same way like wait that you don't struggle with this, whatever it is, yeah.
KC 22:56
Okay, let's do a quick break. And we'll come right back. Okay, we're back with Hannah and talking about executive functioning. Let me ask you this. What do you think like if we were to sort of talk about some practical strategies that people at home could use? In your experience? What are some of the more powerful ones that like, people come back? And they're like, Oh, my God, like, I can't believe like, I would never have thought like, what a big difference that makes
Hannah Choi 23:24
the one of the ones that I always recommend, that isn't even an actual strategy, where you're sort of creating anything tangible is just allowing yourself to take some time to try to figure out why. And keep asking why don't just answer the why. And then go with that. Ask why to the answer. And see if you can distill it down to the true reason you're struggling with it, I really think that the only way that we're going to find a strategy that really will work in the long run and help make actual lasting change that feels good and makes us feel really good about ourselves is if we take the time to truly truly figure out why we're struggling and it can be really hard, you know, any kind of internal work like that any kind of self reflection can often lead us to places we don't want to go, but it is and I've seen it in my clients and I've seen it in myself Absolutely. Is that when we can get to that true meaning of why we're struggling then we can say Okay, then let's try this strategy then let's try
KC 24:25
that and you give me an example of like, what does that look like to ask yourself why to the question and to get down like down to the how do I how do I know if I'm down to the essence of it or whatever?
Hannah Choi 24:35
Yeah, yeah, right. So I had a client are actually still working with her and she is in college. And she when I first met with her, one of the things that she wanted to work on was organization. She has a very messy room and she really felt like she needed to figure that out. And but whenever I brought it up and asked her if she would like to talk about it today, she always avoided it. And so one day I said, you know Let's try to figure out why. Like, why are you avoiding it? And why do you want to be organized? And so I asked her why. And she was like, Well, you know, I just want to, you know, have my space cleaner. But what we got down to was, she felt like she needed to because her siblings and her mom are also are very organized. And she felt this kind of like societal expectation that you're supposed to be the super organized person. And you know, like you said, I think she was attaching the cleanliness of her room to her value her worth. And so we had this really difficult conversation where we got that was the that was what her Why was was that she was associating with her value and her worth as a person. And so when we were able to get to that we were able to say to help her figure out well, first of all, that isn't your that isn't what your value is? And what are the things about organization that you do like and that you think you might be open to tackling. And so she didn't like knowing which clothes were clean and which clothes were dirty. She like she wasn't sure. And it slowed her down in the morning, we're like, Okay, well, that's an actual tangible thing that we can work on. Now, now that you have learned that it's okay for your room to be messy. Let's figure out a system that we can, you know, make your getting dressed in the morning less stressful, so she wouldn't have been able to do that if we didn't take that time.
KC 26:22
Yeah. And people were also surprised to learn that, like, you know, you can figure out you can make dressing in the morning easy and still be messy. Yeah, yeah, like, and that's what I think is so powerful about I mean, you know, I talk all the time about things being functional, because it is really difficult if you're a kid with executive functioning problems growing up, and you get all these messages about what's wrong with you. And there's so many moral things that get detached, like being lazy or irresponsible or immature. And so oftentimes, like when we do go, whether it's to a coach, or a therapist or program, or anywhere where you're trying to get or even a self help book, right, trying to get your shit together, I really do agree with you that the first and most important strategy for lack of a better term is to really get honest with ourselves about like, what matters to us, because it really matters to our functioning, because it actually matters to us. And what's mattering to us because we've been told our whole life, it's supposed to matter. Because sometimes someone says they really want a clean room, and they are really, really struggling to get a clean room and you get down to the bottom of it, you're like, oh, it's because like, there are some executive functioning problems here. And we need strategies for these problems. But sometimes when somebody is trying strategy after strategy after strategy is not working, it's because they don't actually care. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way. I mean, that and I like yeah, man, like, you're never gonna be motivated to do something, you don't care about it, you just aren't think you're supposed to care. And there's not enough force behind, I'm supposed to care, right? And so many of those things, we can just let go of like, okay, like, it's okay to be messy, we can find strategies to make things easier as a messy person, right? Or it's okay to not, you know, it's okay to not want to get straight A's, honestly, like, it's okay, we can find strategies to help you complete enough work to get by and give you time to do really, really deep dives, and do well in the classes that are actually interesting to you. Like, what a bombshell realization that like, I don't actually have to do excellent in all my classes, there might be some classes I'm really interested in, that I would actually enjoy putting extra effort into, but I won't have the time to do that, or the headspace to do that. The capacity to do that. If I don't allow myself to look at some of these other classes and go, you know, what I don't actually don't care about like quadratic equations. I don't want to fail the class. Obviously, I want to get my degree, but like, How can I just get by here? You know what I mean? How can I just remember to do the homework and do enough homework? And I was constantly doing math in my head about how much of this can I get right to pass? How many of these assignments can I not do to still pass? Which is like a dangerous game, but is?
Hannah Choi 29:03
Yes, it is a dangerous game, but sometimes it is what you need in that moment. Yeah. So much of what I work on with myself. Absolutely. And my clients is breaking that kind of thinking and accepting and loving ourselves, even when we have to do things differently than we feel like we should or differently than our friends differently than society does. And there's so much work in executive function coaching about figuring out what works for you and just for you, and it might be really different than your parents expect you or your partner expects you to do, or even yourself expects you to know and that's why it's so important to have those conversations where we get really deep down into like, what is going on what's driving that thinking?
KC 29:49
Okay, here's my next question. I would talk about practical things. One of the things that was always really difficult for me in college was time management when it came to assignment. It's because I couldn't ever tell when I was looking at an assignment, how long is this thing going to take me? And so unless there's this pressure of the deadline being really close, I couldn't get started on it. And then there were a couple of times when I found myself, Oh God, I'm up till 4am. Because I Anway, like underestimated or overestimated, like how much time this was gonna take me. So how do you help somebody that might be experiencing some time blindness, that is, you know, struggling to get things done? Or or to start early enough? Like what are some strategies or even just like some paradigm shifts, or different ways of thinking perspective shifts?
Hannah Choi 30:35
Yeah, so something that's a really, really common challenge, I would say, pretty much every client I've ever worked with has struggled with that in some form or another, it's super, super common. So there are a few things that you can do, they do all take work, there's no magic wand unfortunately, but couldn't tackling the time blindness is a really is some really important work that you can do and learning if you are an overestimate or or an underestimate, or so some people have like really strong anxiety about the do the work. So they will overestimate how long things will take. And then other people really do rely on that urgency and will underestimate and then we also wait until the last minute. So there's a tool that I really love to use is called a BVA budgeted versus actual and that's where you make a guess, based on whatever evidence that you already have about how long you think something might take. And then you do the thing. And then you time yourself. And hopefully you remember to stop the timer. That's always my challenge. Like I always forget to stop the timer. So then I'm like, I have no idea. But if you can do that, and it doesn't have to be with a big project doesn't have to be with writing a paper or doing a work presentation. It can be with loading the dishwasher like make a guess like how long do you think it takes you to load the dishwasher? And then getting ready in the morning?
KC 31:48
Yeah, are getting ready. That's always my thing is like, I don't need to know how long it's going to take me to write the paper, I need to know how long does it take me from the decision to write the paper to where I can start typing because let me clear my desk. And let me get my computer up. And let me go get a drink. And I end up like fiddling about with these prep stages, whether it's getting my kids ready for school, getting ready to run a paper getting ready to clean even I find myself like getting ready to get ready. And that's the part that always throws me off is like I don't have a good mental budget for how early I never forget, like having kids like your whole life. You have this like general idea about if you need to leave at five, you need to start getting ready at x, right? And then I had kids, and it took me at least six months to realize that like whatever time I thought I was going to need to get out the door, I needed to add 30 minutes
Hannah Choi 32:42
to it. Yes, yes. So what you just said is so perfect. It took you six months, you took six months of making an observation, and then you came up with a really great strategy. And so that's what I meant, like, this is not something that that you're going to figure out right away. And so you have to as a person who struggles with this, I'm gonna challenge you have to get rid of that expectation that you're going to fix it right away. Because I guarantee you you won't Hannah,
KC 33:03
I have to interrupt because like, I don't know why. But you saying that like really hit me like a ton of bricks and have a really emotional way. Because I don't think I've ever heard someone with that reframe of like, because in my head, it's always like, it took me six months of being an idiot. It took me six months of failing. It took me six months. Oh, like but I think that's what we all feel is like, why did it have to take me that long? Why am I so hard headed and you just responding with this. So you spent six months observing, you spent six months taking data, you took six months testing this hypothesis, right? Like was such a really powerful shift in perspective that it genuinely made me emotional, I kind of teared up and I think that genuinely can meet here. Well, I also think it's just such a great real time example of the benefit of an executive functioning coach, or even a good therapy, like whoever you're going to write like, that's the benefit is like it because it's not just the observation, it was like the moral neutrality of your observation and was like, Oh, you spent six months making observations. And now we finally have the data that we need, right?
Hannah Choi 34:10
Like any strategy that really works like yeah, it's not going to work every time. Sometimes you're going to need more, sometimes you're going to need less. But you know, you have to give yourself at least that amount of time and you wouldn't, and so that will last that will serve you for so long, because it is based on solid, solid evidence research.
KC 34:29
Well, I think that's a really good note to end on. Because I think that was really powerful. And I appreciate that. I mean, just that idea that yeah, it couldn't have taken you any shorter time. Like it's normal to have to go through an extended period of gathering information, making observations. Yep.
Hannah Choi 34:44
And you have to have compassion. Just have compassion with yourself. It's hard. We're all doing our best with what we have. And it takes a while to get more of what we need to do the things in the way that we want to do them. And by the end of the six months of that research, like it might even look different than You expected or you know, whatever the decision you come to might look different than what you thought it would be. And that's okay. And I love that you found that out. And then
KC 35:08
that 30 minutes will be sufficient until your kid gets to the next stage, or do you have the second kid, right, and then it won't work anymore. And then you'll have to do more research. I think that's also the really powerful thing. It's like that ebb and flow of I feel like I'm on top of that I figured it out about now it's not working anymore. Now I'm floundering. I'm drowning, I'm okay. Oh, now I feel like I'm on top of it. It's like, that is not a cycle of success and failure. That's just a cycle of life. Like that is a normal flow of finding something that works. And then life changing. And then, you know, kind of having to go through that making observations period, and then kind of figuring and so that's a really powerful shift to I think,
Hannah Choi 35:42
we do these three community webinars. And it's all about failure. And well, not really failure, but it managing what we see as failure. And for me, whenever I hear the word failure, I automatically think opportunity. And I think that's such a great another, like really nice reframe that maybe your listeners can take away like every time you think I failed. No, here's an opportunity to figure out something that might work. Well, I
KC 36:06
can't thank you enough for taking the time. And can you tell people where they can find more information about executive functioning coaching that y'all do?
Hannah Choi 36:14
Yeah, sure. Well, you can find us at beyond booksmart.com. And I actually host a podcast all about executive functioning skills. It's called focus forward. And you can find that on any of the podcast apps out there focus forward and executive function podcast and the free webinars that we host we do one about every four to six weeks. They're just community education, webinars all about executive functioning, and I host them it's a lot of fun. We have some of our coaches on and they share their insights. But if you are, you know, if you're interested in researching other companies, you can just type in executive function coaching, and there's so many wonderful options out there. So I really encourage you to find the coach that works really well for you. And you know, the if the company if you go with a larger company, there's the find the one that works really well for you, because that's where you're going to find the most success. Awesome.
KC 37:01
Well, thank you, Hannah, and I hope you have a great day. Thank you so much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai