82: IEPs and Educating Our Disabled Children with Dr. Lesley Cook and Kim Kizito

Hello, World!

If you have a child with a disability in the public school system, you are familiar with the language of special education, IEPs, and 504 Plans. If it’s new to you, stick around for today’s conversation because I’m joined by two trusted experts in the thick of the IEP world. We begin with Dr. Lesley Cook, a clinical psychologist and repeat guest on the show, as she explains what parents need to know to be prepared and informed ahead of IEP meetings. My second guest is Kim Kizito, a fierce advocate who meets with families and consults with them as they navigate the public school system to get educational services for their children with various disabilities. Join us to learn more!

Show Highlights:

From Dr. Lesley: 

●      Dr. Lesley’s path to becoming a trusted expert witness in due process cases dealing with neuropsych assessments

●      Understanding IEPs–individual education programs for students who have a diagnosis that interferes with their education

●      The difference between bad goals and good goals in an IEP

●      Dr. Lesley’s advice to watch out for the word “comply” in an IEP goal

●      Turning bad goals into better goals that are affirming and realistic

●      Considerations around behavioral disorders, PTSD, and triggering environments

●      3 kinds of interventions and supports that should be included in IEPs

●      A look at the intense pressure that parents feel in the IEP process–and why the law regards them as equal members in the process

●      Examples of common accommodations that parents can ask for

●      The problem with color charts as a behavior management tool

●      Dr. Lesley’s tips for parents and guardians who want to be more informed and prepared for IEP meetings

From Kim: 

●      Most parents don’t realize what services are available for children ages 0-3 through ECI (Early Childhood Intervention)

●      The importance of a special education advocate in helping families

●      Understanding the difference between a 504 Plan and an IEP

●      The three-pronged process for a child to qualify for an IEP

●      Lightning round questions for Kim about the excuses schools give to parents

●      Kim’s strategy to “get through” to the school to get evaluations and services for a child

●      Top tips for parents in protecting their child’s educational rights

●      A manifestation determination hearing—when it is appropriate and what it means

Resources and Links:

 Connect with Dr. Lesley Cook: TikTok

 Mentioned by Dr. Lesley: www.understood.org

 Connect with Kim Kizito: Website, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok

 Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

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• Transcript

  KC 0:05

  Hello you Sentient ball of stardust. Welcome back to struggle care. I'm your host, KC Davis. And today we are talking about special education. IEPs Vibo fours. If you have a child with a disability in the public school system, you'll know what we're talking about. And if you don't well, listen on, we're going to explain it. Leslie, I've got Dr. Leslie cook in the studio again with me today. Leslie, thank you for being here.

  Lesley PsyD 0:28

  Thanks. As always, I love being here.

  KC 0:29

  So Leslie, I wanted to bring you on. I think it's so funny that you and I have been friends for a while, and the things that you don't know about your friends sometimes. So, you know, both of my kids have had what's called like early childhood intervention assessments where like, you see some of their, like, milestones and things and and maybe they miss a milestone and you know, call the state or the school district and they come out and do a little assessment, and then they tell you like, yada yada, yada, so but what was funny was when we moved to this new school district, and I called to ask them to do an evaluation on my three year old, and they told me like, Okay, that'll be nine to 12 months, but like, I just was like, oh, okay, make sense. That sucks. And I literally just happened to have texted you and said that, and I wasn't like asking anything. I was just like venting to you. And that's when you disclose to me that you are apparently a freaking expert at this, please tell me your background in this area, because your immediate response to me was like, oh, no, they're not allowed to do that.

  Lesley PsyD 1:30

  My I came at this part of the field by accident, actually, I was doing rotations as a neuropsychologist early on. So my training was much more in some learning disorders, but a lot of brain injury and developmental difference. But what I found was in the clinic, this is way early in my training in the clinic, we were getting more and more and more kids coming in for Neuro psych assessments because of lapses in their educational supports. And so as I got more clients, that way, I got more referred to me. And eventually, that's what I basically started doing almost exclusively. And that led me to becoming an expert witness in due process cases, in cases where the civil rights of students were violated. So we'll use the term expert, you know, gingerly because I'm an expert in a very narrow window. But yeah, this is an area that I spent a lot of time and still do in my career. And in my personal life,

  KC 2:22

  you were the one that told me first, hey, there is by law, like a timeline, they have to follow. And it is most certainly not nine months. And that was super helpful that kicked off us being able to advocate and I had no idea like how little information I knew, and how like the people who were trying their best, but were constrained by a budget and staffing and things like they weren't volunteering the information that they were out of compliance or that I had rights that I was unaware of. And so, you know, long story short, we ended up having to file a complaint with the Texas Education Authority, and then suddenly, we got a spot quickly. And so at the end of all of this, like you get your assessment, and then they come back and they give you the evaluation. And then we get to this step called the IEP. And I can never remember what it stands for. When I was talking to him. I was like the independent education balls. Like I said something ridiculous. But can you like in layman's terms? Can you explain what an IEP is?

  Lesley PsyD 3:18

  Sure, so any child who has a diagnosis that the result of that is interfering with their education, so it's making it difficult for a child to like fully benefit from what's happening in the classroom might qualify for a program of study, which is called an IEP. It's an individualized educational program, a lot of people think that the P stands for plan, but the plan, the paper is just a part of it. So the program is supports that you can have in place for your child, like extra time on tests, or maybe they can sit closer to the board, but it's also intervention. So your child might need to receive occupational therapy at school to help them with their fine motor skills or speech therapy to help them interact more in their environment. And then they also might have services that take place outside of the classroom. So they might meet one on one with a reading specialist. And all of that goes together to create this program of study that is free. If you're in a public school, this is provided to you free and then it also when you have an IEP, it means I need to track your child's progress over time. So it's pretty comprehensive. So

  KC 4:16

  I appreciate that breakdown. And when you say they have to have a diagnosis, do you mean that they have to have been previously diagnosed by a doctor or a clinician? Or are you just saying like they have to have some sort of disability? Yes.

  Lesley PsyD 4:29

  So they have to have some sort of disability. This is kind of thinking about this as like the IEP, once it's done is this land of majesty, but there's many roads to get there. So sometimes a child will come in with a diagnosis. Maybe you got an ADHD diagnosis for your child and then you're taking that to the school and you're saying, okay, school, I want to bring this diagnosis to you. But many times the child doesn't need to have any diagnosis at all, just a suspected disability or someone said something's in the way here, and if that happens, you can actually request for the school to do anybody ovation for the very first time, you don't have to see a doctor outside of the school first.

  KC 5:03

  Okay. So when we're sitting down and we're doing an IEP, what it looked like for our daughter is that, you know, they came to us and they were like, okay, here are the goals. And here are like, the ways we're going to get to those goals. Like I think every state is different, but they basically are similar and that you have these goals. And then somewhere underneath the goal, they have to specify like, what kind of interventions are they going to use to get to these goals. And I wasn't super pleased at the first goals that came back. And I'm not going to get into super details just for my own daughter's privacy. But I thought maybe you and I could talk for a minute about like, what are some goals that you see on IEPs that you think are bad goals? Like what kind of things could parents look for and consider when they're looking at these goals?

  Lesley PsyD 5:53

  Yeah, I think it's easier sometimes for me to think of the bad goals, unfortunately. So any goal that states a symptom of the disorder that your child has, and then says that they're going to eliminate that. So one of the classic ones is little Suzy, who has ADHD will remain seated with her hands in lap for more than 50% of class. So that would be an unreasonable goal. Because we know that sitting still is not something that's going to come easy for a child with ADHD. So anything that is related to being quiet, or being compliant child will comply with all stated adult directions, 80% of the time, that's that kind of flavor that we're looking at. We don't like that we don't want our children to have compliance as a goal. We want them to be able to speak up for themselves and advocate.

  KC 6:36

  That was one of the most helpful things you said to me when you said that you never allow the word comply to be in an IEP goal. Yeah, absolutely. And so this would be something like if you have an autistic child, and they have a goal that your child will make eye contact, you know, 70% of the time, is that what you're talking

  Lesley PsyD 6:53

  about, right? Because that lack of eye contact is one of our differences in eye contact as a part of autism. So we're not going to set a goal to remove a part of autism. If you do see that goal, though it is a good opportunity to ask the teacher What do you mean, what is getting in the way? And maybe it turns out that what's happening is your child is missing the instructions because they're presenting the instructions visually. So suddenly, now we have an opportunity to say, well, what is it actually that you're looking at? Well, we want her to be able to know that there's an instruction and follow it. Now we have a goal wasn't really about eye contact at all, it was about her not being able to find the information,

  KC 7:30

  or like a lot of times I feel like it's about like attention. And that's a helpful process of like, what is it we want this child to get from the situation like starting there instead of what is the behavior we want to see. Right? So like, if we want if like the are asking like what the problem is Susie doesn't pay attention, like, okay, but is eye contact the only way to pay attention? Like, wouldn't it be better for the goal to be like, how would you turn that into a goal about attention that you think would be like affirming? Yeah,

  Lesley PsyD 7:59

  well, first, I want to know what they mean. So a lot of these walls or barriers are opportunities to find out what does that look like, tell me what it looks like when she's not paying attention? Or how do you know she's not paying attention? And they might say something like, well, she gets up and walks around the room. And I would say, oh, okay, so the issue here maybe isn't attention said she needs more movement. So that might be something that we shift to? Or it might be I know that she's not paying attention? Because when I go to her desk, because she's just doodling? And then I might ask, did she understand the instruction? So we might need to collect more data or talk more, or the teachers might just have to pay a little bit closer attention to figure out what is it exactly.

  KC 8:36

  Okay. So if we did all this investigation, and we found out that maybe the teacher says something like, Well, the problem is, is that like, I don't know if she has understood? If she's not looking at me, sometimes she does. Sometimes she doesn't. And I don't know, like how to help her. If I don't have like signals from her that she has understood, then like what kind of goal like if you just wouldn't make one up? Sure, then

  Lesley PsyD 9:00

  I would say then the teacher's goal would be that at least eight out of 10 times during the week that with a prompt, she will demonstrate that she has understood the instruction. And that sounds very clinical. But let me explain what that means. So in this situation, we're setting it up where she will always have a reminder. So part of the goal is that when I remind her and we can talk about how to do that, she will show that she has understood that is a much more realistic goal than she will just pay attention on her own.

  KC 9:28

  Okay, I like that. So you said it can't be like a symptom of the disability. But what about when we get into like conduct disorders? Like if like, couldn't I say, Well, my kid taking a swing and another kid is a manifestation of their, you know, conduct disorder, or even manifestation of their PTSD or manifestation of their anxiety, you know, is it reasonable to have a goal that like, Johnny will not take a swing at people three out of five times or like, how do you address those kinds of behaviors?

  Lesley PsyD 9:58

  Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of different ways Just to answer that, one is that those are behavioral disorders are a little bit different because those aren't necessarily built into a child like an autism or ADHD is part of them. So those things are developmental, but a conduct disorder or PTSD. These are things that happen when certain things are triggering in the environment. But aside from that, I think one of the best goals that I've seen on an IEP was Johnny will remain safe to himself and others in his classroom. And the reason that it was so broad is that then underneath the goal, there were all of these strategies that were put in place, because sometimes when we focus on just getting rid of his behavior, or not focusing on, well, why is the behavior happening. So for instance, if Johnny is being prompted with demands every 30 seconds or something, sit down hands in your lap pay attention, then a part of the goal might be to reduce the frequency that he's being asked to do things and allow him more freedom to move in the room. So it's a really individualized process to kind of figure out what's at the root of all these behaviors. But in general, and answer to your question, it's not unreasonable to say that the goal in that case is he won't hit himself or others. That's an okay goal to have.

  KC 11:13

  Okay, it sounds like a lot of these interventions are like once you get on, it's like the goal is about the child. But once you get into the interventions, it's like very much heavy on like, what the adults in the room are supposed to be changing? Yes,

  Lesley PsyD 11:29

  there's actually three kinds of interventions or supports that I usually see on IEP. And we find that when all three are present, it's best. So the first one is what we typically think of which is skills. And we do want to have skill based goals on there, because we want to teach our kids so if a child is becoming inattentive, because they're so distracted, because they can't move may be a part of a goal is that we're going to teach them the skill of self advocating, can I get up? Can I walk around? Can I have the wiggle seat? Can I have my fidget that might be a skill based intervention. And then there's other types called supports. And these are things we're putting in the environment that have nothing to do the child does not have to advocate for them. So a support might be you know, every 30 minutes, the paraprofessional in the room might ask, do you want to get up and walk around or if they noticed that they're spacing out or the becoming an attentive, offer them a fidget. So that's different than a skill because other people are implementing. And then there's also therapies, so things like a pullout to occupational therapy, because if they're able to coordinate their hand better, they'll be able to write and they won't be as distracted. So those three you want to see skills, supports and therapies. So

  KC 12:35

  when I was younger, I was diagnosed with auditory processing disorder. And one of the main ways that that showed up was that it's difficult for me to hear people when I can't see their mouths, and I went to a private school. So I didn't have an IEP, but they did extend like accommodations. And as you're explaining these categories, I'm kind of like thinking about these different accommodations. And one was like, they moved me to the front row and all of my classes, like I didn't have to advocate for that, that was just like a change that they made. And then the second one was that the teacher wasn't supposed to turn around and talk while she was facing the Blackboard. So that's kind of interesting to like, think back on my own. And then I remember like the there's like a girl in my class that had dyslexia who was allowed to use a laptop, and kids that got pulled out because they got extra time on tests.

  Lesley PsyD 13:21

  Yep, and all of these, we want to think of an IEP, or a program for someone with a disability as like a garden. So if you plant I don't know, if you you garden, I don't know if anybody else gardens, but if you garden, if you plant a whole area of garden with one type of seed, and that's it, it's fine. But it's not as healthy as if you get a whole bunch of different types of plants in there. So if you've got one plant that's going to draw the right kind of B, that's going to help pollinate this other plant. And that works together. That's why in these programs, we really want to see representation of all of those things. So yes, we want to provide supports, but we also do want kids to increase their skill. So maybe one of the skills we want to increase is for the child to notice when they're feeling upset. So they can ask for a chill pass or a break before they escalate to hitting that we can't really accomplish with a support we have to work with the child to build their ability to know Oh, I'm about to blow my stack, I need to take a break. So I

  KC 14:16

  know in my process with designing this IEP, it did not feel as though I was expected to like challenge what the IEP said like it very much felt to me like they came Yeah, they did the evaluation, they gave it to me I signed it, they went away and then they came back with an IEP and they were like okay, here's the IEP like sign it let us know if you like have anything that you want to say about it and then like this is it and even though they were technically saying like go over it let us know if you have any questions or like go over it let us know if we think we missed anything. I think that had I not been connected with like people like you and like Kim like it very much would have felt to me like Like, okay, they're the experts. Like they're telling me what the goals need to be. And I'm not really supposed to like say, No, I don't like that goal, or I want that goal to be different, or I don't think that goal is appropriate. And I think, but you're saying that we are supposed to do that. Yeah, or we are allowed to do that.

  Lesley PsyD 15:16

  Absolutely. And I think this is a case where we can do two things at once we can look at the system and why the system is set up against parents, and also not necessarily blame individual teachers or schools, because there's downward pressure on schools to do these plans fast. They don't provide teachers and school psychologists and all those other folks in that meeting with enough support to do it, either with pay or time or training. So there's a lot of pressure on them to get it done. And we feel a pressure to comply and be grateful. And you know, thank you for helping with my child. And so there's a lot of pressure from different angles. But it's important to know as a parent that the law regards you as an equal member. So the principal of the school who is in that meeting, sometimes, and the school psychologists are equal to you, either one of you could say, I don't like this school, I'm proposing that we change it, and you have no less legal authority than the school. Now, that's easier, you know, to say, I've been in these meetings my whole life. And I know, it doesn't often feel that way. The other thing that

  KC 16:18

  was hard about this process is that there's not like, especially if your child has just been diagnosed, there's not like a bank of accommodations, like I didn't even know what was possible. So when they would ask like, how does this look? It was kind of like, I mean, I guess it looks good. But like, I don't even know what kinds of things I could be asking for. And I think that's especially difficult in situations where the school is pushing back a little bit and saying, like, well, we don't have the money, we don't have the staff. And you know, you kind of feel like, you don't even know what you're allowed to ask for. Can you share, like some accommodations that you've seen maybe some creative ones, or some good ones or like, so people kind of get a sense of like, how much is possible?

  Lesley PsyD 17:04

  Sure. And I think another good resource to is understood.org. And I'm not paid by them, I don't work with them. I like them, a lot of use them my whole career. That's a great website for parents to look at a whole bunch of ideas for accommodations, the best way that I think of when I'm thinking about my own children, who two of the three of us have been on IEP s is to say, what's the issue? And what is the barrier? So if x was happening, they would be successful? What is the x? And then I just ask, I tell parents all the time, ask for the moon. If you think that your child could really benefit from having a one on one aid all day, just ask because even if the school says well, they don't meet criteria for that. Now you can say, Okay, well, then what else would accomplish that goal?

  KC 17:46

  Or like, oh, what's the criteria?

  Lesley PsyD 17:48

  Yeah, can you show me where that is in the law. That's one of my other favorite things to say in these meetings. But creative solutions can be something as simple as George will be the line leader, if George is having behavioral issues in class, but man, he loves to be the line leader that can be one of the accommodations is that he's allowed to be the line leader. I don't know any little kids named George, by the way, but I don't know why I'm pulling these older names. They can be other things like, you know, making sure that your child is allowed to have a fidget at their desk, like taking apart a pen and putting it back together something as simple as that. They could be things including that your child could have preferential seating based on where they want to sit not based on lack of distraction. Because, as you probably know, a lot of ADHD kids, if you put us in the corner where there's no distractions, that's when we're most distracted. So it really needs to be dependent upon your individual child's like strengths and what would benefit them in the class.

  KC 18:44

  So what about I feel like whenever we talk about accommodations, we're frequently discussing like ADHD and autism, which I totally get, and I even mentioned some about dyslexia or whatever. One of the things that I wasn't as familiar about until I joined this Facebook group. And it was like about IEP s and five oh fours, and they had this like master document where everyone put the accommodations that their children were receiving, so you could go and browse by topic, and I'll try to find this Facebook group and put in the show notes for anybody that wants to check it out. But like what kind of blew my mind was like the accommodations for anxiety. Oh, yeah. Yep. The accommodations for depression. The accommodations for OCD, like the accommodations about like, this child will be allowed to bring their and some of them are like little little kids like this child is allowed to bring a Lavie to school. This child is not required to lay down a nap, this child is allowed to call their parent anytime they want.

  Lesley PsyD 19:38

  Absolutely. Yep. Other ones that I've seen like that or this child and their family will be notified prior to fire drills. So if we have a child with a trauma reaction to a siren, maybe they had survived the fire you can have them have pre warning for things. The Chill pass is something that I've seen a lot for anxiety growing and growing in popularity. Now. They even have digital chill passes. So that If your child, if they need to step out for a moment, doesn't even have to identify themselves, they can send a text through this app to their teacher, and they have an identified location like they're not wandering the school for a specific amount of time. So a child who has frequent panic attacks, for example, knows, should I ever feel like I'm on the verge of a panic attack, I have a complete plan, and I can return to my education, you know, as quickly as possible. I love the idea of a master document. I know lots of different Facebook pages. And I find that the most beneficial way to connect is exactly what you did a local group in your area, because they're going to know better, what tends to get passed through more quickly, there

  KC 20:37

  was another one that I thought of that I thought was really interesting. I'm trying to remember what it was, oh, for anxiety, social anxiety and other types of disabilities, one of the ones was like, you can have it written into their IEP as an accommodation or something like that, that like they can't be called on and like put on the spot, or made to read out loud.

  Lesley PsyD 20:54

  Yeah, we see that a lot. I write that a lot for dyslexic kids. So if they're early in their reading journey, there's no reason they need to be reading aloud, they can read aloud in their one on ones they can read aloud next year, they can read aloud later in the year. But you can absolutely, basically you can ask for anything that's going to benefit your child. So if you think about a child who says who has like school avoidance, they're anxious every morning, they don't want to go to school every morning. And then you find out it's because when they come in, they are forced to wait in the big cafeteria, and all they're doing is just sitting there being anxious with all that noise, you can actually write into their IEP that they can go to a designated area, they don't even have to do that. And that's not You're not going to find that necessarily in a manual. You can just ask for what your child needs. Yeah,

  KC 21:38

  having lunch at the nurse's station having What about safety issues? You know, let's say that you have an autistic child that elopes or runs away, or any of these kinds of things like what kind of goals and interventions can you write into an IEP?

  Lesley PsyD 21:55

  Yeah, in that case, there's so many and you would really want to know, what are the triggers are the things that happen right before an elopement, which is just a fancy word for a kid running, you'd want to know if the child is running away from the school or if they're just running because sometimes it can be misinterpreted children, especially those who are young and autistic, and don't have verbal speech yet, might just want to run. So you could actually have it in your IEP, that, you know, when given permission from the teacher, or when it's an appropriate time that they can run to a specific location like to the sensory room and go on the swing, I often will see for safety reasons, you know, the child will be within eyesight of at all times. And that might not seem like something you'd have to write in an IEP. But you might be surprised if the child is running like every single day at recess, you might want to say they need an alternate recess plan or more supervision during recess.

  KC 22:49

  Yeah. And I think about things like you know, if they ride the bus, like being shot, like supervised, walked to the bus, if they go on field trips, if they you know, any of those sort of things. What about like AAC devices? You know, what kind of goals if you have a child that's non speaking, and you want to introduce a an AAC device? Like, what are those kinds of goals look like? This

  Lesley PsyD 23:09

  is an area that is really exploding in terms of research and in terms of like implementation, and I could not be more excited about almost anything that's happening. So AAC devices, our range of devices, there are actually an older system that you can carry with you. That's like a book and you can exchange things. There's also the on a tablet, one of the biggest accommodations that I right.

  KC 23:33

  Oh, and what sorry, will you say what they are? Because I realized I didn't and people may not know Oh, sure.

  Lesley PsyD 23:37

  So there's a system called pecs that is a little bit older and is falling into less use as these other AC programs are coming into more use. And that's the like the physical one that you would have with a book. There's other systems like Proloquo to go and now I'm forgetting

  KC 23:52

  the other one. But like literally what do we mean when we say AAC? Oh, so an AAC

  Lesley PsyD 23:57

  is an augmentative communication device, it's an iPad, basically, it's carrying around so you'll have a small iPad on on a strap usually, and that is the child's voice. So it is a program of pictures that will produce spoken language. And that is how the child can interface with the world.

  KC 24:16

  So you can have it written into the AAC for example, that the child will always have access to their

  Lesley PsyD 24:20

  AAC correct. And I would say any child that's using any communication system must have a goal that it is not to be withheld. It is not to be used as a bribe or a reward that that is their voice. Also, another thing to remember when you have kids with augmentative communication devices is that they may use words that are unsavory, and that's okay too, because that's part of how we speak so we can't do things like take the word no off or I don't want to they have to have full access to all of their words at all times.

  KC 24:52

  Now, here's an interesting question. If your child is can I say like when I know that I can because I've done it, but like, you know, if I see something that the school maybe does by policy, especially by way of like discipline or teaching, and I don't feel like that is going to be beneficial to my kid or I feel like that's going to be harmful to my kid, like, how do I help right in like, because you know, there's there's the goals and the interventions. But there's also this piece at the end, where it literally just listed accommodations, where I was able to say like, I don't want you to do this intervention, right? Like my, I don't want you to use this type of discipline.

  Lesley PsyD 25:31

  Yeah, my absolute favorite one to recommend that you talk about anyone with an IEP is color charts. So it's a very common behavioral management tool that and that works different ways. But basically, when you're exhibiting the behavior that the teacher wants, your color changes, or your clip goes up, or your number goes up, or your dojo points goes up, and then when you're not, they go down, I wish we would ban them. For all children, they are largely ineffective for children with disabilities. In fact, for most children with disabilities, these charts are damaging, or they make behavior worse, because they can't be implemented in a way that would be beneficial. So let's say for instance, your child is having an outburst every single day at two o'clock, because that's when they find out if they got their reward, or their clip moved, you can write into that last section, my child will not participate in behavioral management tools, including and then you can list the specific system, okay,

  KC 26:25

  that's really helpful is are there any other like tips that you would give a parent who or a guardian that's walking into one of these meetings that you think is important? Yes,

  Lesley PsyD 26:35

  so many always go in with a spirit of collaboration first, you know, prepare for things to be challenging, because they often are. But try to remember that all of these people around the table very likely are trying their best to do their jobs in a very difficult system. So come in with a spirit of collaboration however.dot.if, anything ever sounds funny, unnerving doesn't make sense to you don't pass by it. It's okay to say to the meeting, stop telling me that again. So I can write that down. You're not expected to know everything. So that's appropriate for you to say, I'm confused. Why did we do that? Can you explain to me again, where do you see that in the law? So go nice and slow. And then the last thing I would say, well, two last things, never listen to a team that tells you well, we only have these last 15 minutes. And then we have to just stop and leave the document as it is the timelines for the system or not the timelines for parents, you don't have to abide by those. If the documents not done or it's not right, then they need to continue it. So don't

  KC 27:40

  ever basically, Don't sign it until you know that it's exactly what you feel like it should be

  Lesley PsyD 27:46

  yes. Don't sign it until you know that it is something that feels right for you. And if you get home after you sign it, and it's not right, you can call another meeting. It's never finished.

  KC 27:57

  And I would say be sure that it says all the things you talked about because I there were things that were really important to me. And by way of accommodations and modifications that we would like discuss, and they'd be like, oh, yeah, yeah, sure. And then like, I got the IP and it wasn't written down anywhere. Yeah, which can bite you in the butt. Because then later you find out it happened. And you're like, Oh, you're not supposed to do that. And they're like, well, it doesn't say it. Correct.

  Lesley PsyD 28:18

  So a lot happens during these meetings. So if we want to give the benefit of the doubt, we could say it's probably because it got missed. In actuality, a lot of times, they're not missed, they're omitted. So be careful. Read it over, have someone else read it over. I've also found that it's really effective in the meeting to keep using your child's name. Don't necessarily say I want to talk about goal two, I would say I want to talk about how Emma is going to accomplish goal two, I'm worried that that's going to be hard for Emma, keep reminding that team that this is your child, this is a real human being. Don't let them think about your job as a piece of paper.

  KC 28:51

  That's really beneficial. Well, Leslie, thank you so much. This has been super helpful. Thank you for having me as always, where can people find you if they want to follow you online?

  Lesley PsyD 28:59

  I am doing some of this work on the tick tock at Leslie sidey, Le s l EY. P. S. yd.

  KC 29:11

  Hello, my sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, Casey Davis. And today we're going to be talking about i e PS if you don't know what that is, basically, we're gonna be talking about special education, education for disabled children in the United States of America. And I'm here with Kim because Ito Hello, Kim. Hello, Casey. Thank you so much. Kim is an advocate that meets with families and consults with them trying to navigate the public school system and trying to get education and services for their children that have various disabilities. So my first question Kim is let's say that someone is listening right now. And they have like a baby, right? Like an 18 month old, a two year old and they're starting to notice maybe they're missing some mile stones, maybe there's some things going on What do most parents not know about the public education system in the United States, when it comes to disabilities, even at that age,

  Kim Kizito 30:11

  most parents don't realize that there are services in every state that are free of charge under various names for kids aged zero to three, and it's called Early Intervention. In some states, it's called zero to three. In other states, it's a there's just various different names for it. And a lot of people just kind of they listen are real. And they also don't realize what is considered behind, you know, a lot of people will, it might be their first child, like our situation, I wasn't sure what was behind and you know, what wasn't behind. And so a lot of times, the doctor, pediatricians aren't necessarily going to pick up on things as quickly as maybe you might, as a parent, I hate to say it like that, some do. But sometimes those visits are pretty quick. And so they're asking you, you know, they're not necessarily watching what a baby can do, oh, you know, how's he doing and you know, a parent, baby, just say, Oh, the kids doing fine when the kid is behind. And so I tell parents this all the time, that it's not, you're not labeling your child, you're not signing up to be afraid of anything, but it cannot hurt if you feel like there is an issue to contact your foot prior for a zero to three, you would want to contact your early intervention, it's usually through your Department of Health and Human Services. And they will come out and do an assessment to see if your kid is behind and behind enough that they require services. So a lot of people don't realize I didn't realize that.

  KC 31:36

  I didn't either. And I'm in Texas, and for a state that is not big on, like welfare programs and social services, I was stunned that we had this service in our state, because with both of my kids, we ended up getting an ECI. And it was wild. I mean, they came to our house and spent like four hours with my kids and tested will tell the folks what ECI Oh, yeah, ECI is early childhood intervention and spent hours with them and gave me this full report about the different dimensions of their life and kind of where they were, if they were ahead, if they were on track, if they were behind. And then you know, there was like a cut off, or if you're a certain amount behind, and then they offered us services. I mean, there was speech therapy, there was occupational therapy, there was physical therapy, there was all sorts and they come in here, they came to our house to do them.

  Kim Kizito 32:25

  Yeah. And there's programs that well, two things one there, the percentage or amount behind varies by state, which doesn't always make sense. And but the big, the nice thing is that they come to your home, you know, they don't they want to see your child in their natural environment. And they're doing this as difficult for parent, a lot of times, they won't let you be in the same room all the time. And you just kind of want to jump in and say, Oh, Johnny, Johnny, you know, he usually does this or whatever. But the result is really helpful. If your child has that percentage behind them, they can get they can get services. If not, then you have that. Okay, well, maybe there's not I don't need to worry about anything. So

  KC 33:04

  and then, you know, that kind of takes us into the special education in schools. And the question that I want to ask, and then I'm going to ask, like, in terms of a story is that, you know, when people hear like a special education advocate, like, what does that mean? And why would a parent need that? And I want to kind of almost like, give my answer to that, that I want you to give your answer. It's just this personal story that when we moved into the the county that we're in, we wanted one of our kids to get assessed so that, you know, she could potentially start preschool, they offer preschool here for kids with disabilities. And you know, we moved, we call them and they said, Okay, well, you know, we're really behind, we have a long waiting list, you know, we should be able to get to her to make an assessment, you know, in the next nine to 12 months, and I'm thinking, Well, okay, I knew that like the waiting lists for assessments to the hospital were a year like I knew to expect that. And so that, to me, seemed like, reasonable, like, yeah, gosh, there's a lot of kids and their, whatever, whatever. And thankfully, I knew you I knew a couple of other people that really knew the system. And immediately they were like, oh, no, they're not allowed to do that. And this was my first entryway into this system for children that is supposed to be collaborative, but many times is adversarial.

  Kim Kizito 34:22

  And so yeah, and so what you're saying I tell parents is a lot of times the our legal system has deadlines for these things, your medical insurance does not so if you're calling a doctor saying hey, I think my kid may be autistic or I think my kid may have dyslexia or something like that. There may be a wait, you know, whereas when you go through this process through the school, or even through early intervention, so from you know, zero to graduation, the idea which is the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, which is the law that kind of is the where I EPS go required. are that these things be happening within 60 days now? It's varies by state, the state can't go over 60 days. But until I think Texas is less than six, I don't remember. But

  KC 35:13

  well, I know. And sometimes like state by state, it depends on whether those 60 days are school days, like whether the weekends and the holidays count and things like that. Yeah,

  Kim Kizito 35:22

  that's the tricky thing. Yeah. And but they have a deadline, so they can't tell you so if it if someone tells me Oh, they said it's gonna be nine months? Yeah, absolutely not. I know, it's not nine months, like I'm in North Carolina, for instance. And where federal law tells you one thing, if federal law is unclear, then that's where the state can step in. So this federal law says 60 days, and it doesn't say when that 60 days starts. So here in North Carolina, it is 90 days. So in federal law, it's 60 days to determine eligibility. 30 days after eligibility is determined to create an IEP, North Carolina, it is 90 full days. So if I sent an email today asking for Kimberly to be evaluated, this would start the timeline. Federal law does not define what a day is. North Carolina defines days and special ed has calendar days, that includes holidays, weekends, everything Texas may say school days, which includes everything every day that the kid is in school, so if the kids not at school, Martin Luther King's Day, that doesn't count, you know, and so what's interesting about North Carolina is the 90 days is until the from the from the date that I send in my request till the IEP is written. So technically, it's the same as federal law. 30 plus 60. Yeah,

  KC 36:39

  well, and you can already see like, why a parent would need an advocate, because, you know, I had no idea, any of that, right. And so I get, you know, you guys are like, No, there's absolutely a time clock, they absolutely have to do within that time. So I email them back. And I say, hey, actually, this law states, you must be done at this amount of time. And so I get a response. And it's, yeah, listen, we're not going to make it like we don't have the people. We are 12 months behind, we'll get to when we get to you. And you're like, okay, and I am fortunate enough that my husband is an attorney, and he researched like, what do we do next? I mean, he's getting ready to sue the school district. And in our state, you know, the next move that you have to do is file a complaint with the Texas Education Authority. And Michael spends all night drafting and it has to be exactly exactly right, like otherwise will reject,

  Kim Kizito 37:31

  or else they'll send it back.

  KC 37:32

  Yep, yeah. And so he writes up this complaint, and he sends it in. And literally, within a couple of days of this complaint being received, we get a phone call that says, you know, what, we suddenly there's some availability that is opened up for your daughter next Thursday in their vaults. And when Michael wrote the complaint, he wrote it for our daughter, and all such children similarly affected in our county. And they came back and told us that, hey, you can only the only person that can actually file a report on behalf of a child is the guardian. However, we had tipped, we had given enough information that they then were like, however, we would like some more information about how many children are behind in this county.

  Speaker 1 38:22

  Okay, I was gonna say, Yeah, cuz you could file a systemic complaint, especially if they're saying they're 12 months behind, that doesn't mean that this obviously shows that they have a backlog. So

  KC 38:31

  and so, you know, we wanted to help make the systemic change, not just, you know, help our kid and so it's wild to me that you have to have the knowledge or connections of an attorney to get your children's rights. And so and

  Kim Kizito 38:47

  it's very frustrating, because you think about the one the kids that didn't have this information, and we're just, you know, it's, oh, it's nine months, so Well, you know, I'm not I have to sit here and go without services.

  KC 38:57

  That's a full year that they could have been in preschool than it could have been getting services. And we found this drum of how important the early services are. So once a kid is in school, we've mentioned the term IEP a few times, which stands for individualized education program. So there's two kinds, let's just say for making it really basic for somebody, let's say you have a kid in class, and they have ADHD, or they have dyslexia or even they have a medical condition. Maybe there are laws that basically say that child deserves accommodations and modifications so that they can have access to education and be successful.

  Kim Kizito 39:32

  Yep, just like everyone else that may not have a disability.

  KC 39:35

  Yeah. And there's two kinds of like, quote unquote, plans that exist. Can you explain to us the difference between a 504 plan and an IEP?

  Kim Kizito 39:46

  This is a very common question. IEP stands for individualized education program, and it is housed if you will, under the Office of Education in good old Washington, right. So if we think about it in terms of umbrella, we've got the office of Education and then our Department of Education. And then underneath that little umbrella is the Office of Special Education. And then within that umbrella is idea, which is the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. And inside that act is all of the information that we need to know about an IEP idea is a grant statute, meaning that at some point, some fogies in Congress are going to vote about how much money they're going to put into the idea. And that money will be disseminated amongst all 50 states and territories and such like that. And so an IEP is designed to protect the free appropriate public education of a child who has a identified disability classification. And when I'm being very particular about that, because a child does not have to have any sort of medical or educational diagnosis outside of the school, in order to qualify for an IEP, we just need a suspicion. And so when you are a parent who has been faced with a, the doctor has a nine month waiting list or something like that, that does not stop you from being able to get services through the school, it may keep you from getting that diagnosis, but you can still get services to the school. And so IEPs are set to provide a child with that education, a special education in functional and academic ways. So by functional I mean, potty training, standing in line attending, blah, blah, blah, academics and reading, writing arithmetic, right. And so it outlines how that child's education will be provided. And along with that, when I speak about education, special education in the idea is legally defined as a specially designed instruction. So you'll hear that term SDI specially designed instruction, I interchange those when I'm talking about an IEP, if I say IEP, special education or specially designed instruction, I'm usually talking about the same thing. Now, here's where we can get a little bit controversial. Section 504 has a completely different section of Government Department of Health and Human Services. And it is a is not a state grant statute. It is a civil rights law. And it's under the Rehabilitation Act. And so back in 1974, basically, the it is a anti discrimination act, and it is not there's no grant attached to it. So and I'm talking about 504 now, so there's no money under a 504. It basically just outlines how a person who has a disability cannot be discriminated against mainly in places that receive funds from our federal government. And so a school will tell you that the main difference between an IEP and a 504 and a 504 is a plan just like an IEP is that a Bible for provides accommodations only accommodations change how a child receives their education. And if we think about that, it's like, okay, I might need to go and get a test in a small room. Or if I have a wheelchair, I might need access by getting being in a room that has wider aisles so that I can get down or sitting at a table that's a little bit lower. And but the school will tell you that those accommodations are Bible for only or only provides accommodations, whereas an IEP can provide accommodations and specially designed instruction. Here's where I get into fights all the time. Because section 504 has a vape requirement or a faith clause vape is free appropriate public education. So both section 504 and IEP provide a free appropriate public education, what people don't know about section 504. And it's just one little section, the section that pertains to public school between K to 12 also says that the child has a right to special education and related services. So what I do all the time is if a child is on a 504, I say they can get special education on a 504. And then the schools want to fight me and then I just pull up this little clause and I say guess what, it's right here. So in my opinion, and I haven't had to fight this in any sort of due process case or having the attorneys go against me. But the way I read and understand 504 is a child can get pretty much the same thing in terms of special education on a 504 as they cannot an IEP is just not being paid for by the federal government. So

  KC 44:34

  is when we talk about getting like an assessment through the school district. And then being told whether you qualify and then you get an IEP, do you get a 504 plan on the same path, like you contact the district and they come out and they do an assessment and then they come back and say hey, we're either going to do an IEP or a 504 Well,

  Kim Kizito 44:54

  I'm gonna make you regret this because I you know, how you get you know so much about something that you get really particular Everything okay, well, I'll give you the answer about what a school will tell you. And then I'll also give you the answer about what I know because I do deep dives on this. So a school will tell you if you are looking for a 504. So what schools typically will tell you is we'll go ahead and try the kid on a 504. Why do they do that? Because there is cheaper. That is what it is, you know. And if the kid is usually is not having any sort of academic issues or anything like that, they'll say, well, let's just let's take a look at the 504. And provide those types of accommodations to see if it helps the child and then they'll say, Well, it's not helping let's go to an IEP. So you will see that, or I will see where a child is being evaluated for an IEP does not qualify. And then they say, Well, let's try a 504, which I say is not a constellation play consolation prize, but sometimes they give it as a consolation prize. So I think it's important for parents to understand that there's a three process in order for a child to qualify for an IEP, the first prong is to have a qualifying disability. So there are 14 disabilities and their disability categories, because there's disabilities that don't even have a name, you know, we can't necessarily put a name to them. And so when I talk about disability categories, many of them are what I could call umbrella categories, where a lot of different diagnoses kind of fall within but like autism is one category. and of itself, there's another category called Other health impairment, which includes ADHD could include anxiety could include bipolar just depends on so that child would need to qualify or need to be identified as either has that disability because a doctor diagnosed it, but like I said, you don't need a diagnosis or the school suspect disability, right. And so your teachers are smart, they know out of the 20 kids that they have this one over here, if I think about my kid is over here doing her own thing. She's not following anybody else. She's not answering to her name, this might be autism, you know, that's so they can understand that. So that's the first part. And there's 14 different categories, or classifications. And then the second part is, does that classification impede their education? Does it affect how they're learning? And by learning I mean, not just academics, reading, writing arithmetic, yeah, sure kid who cannot read by fourth grade possibly has a disability, or maybe they just never went to school, whatever. Also, when I talk about impeding education, I'm talking about academic and function. And so let's talk about my daughter, again, my daughter does not have any academic issues, but she's autistic. So and by function, I usually try to break that down by social, emotional and behavioral, she may have issues with emotional regulation, she may have issues with anxiety, just you know, some kids have issues with being potty trained later than other kids. And so both of those things together, or one of those things, functional or academic could be impeded because of that disability. So if the answer to numbers one and two are yes, then number three is if that child that has those suspected disability, that disability is impairing their education, either functionally or academically, do they in turn need special education and or related services? If the answers to all three of those are yes, then boom, you get an IEP, you get an IEP. And so a lot of times with the 504 laws, they get those passes first, too, but then the school thinks that they don't need specially designed instruction. And so they'll say, Well, you know, the it's impeding their learning, but we can help this kid by providing some accommodations. So I have a few questions.

  KC 48:31

  One thing that you have mentioned before that I thought was interesting, when you tried to describe, you know, if you have a diagnosed disability, or a, you know, suspected disability, you know, suspicion or identified, and when you use the example of say, a fourth grader that can't read, I thought that was an interesting example, because you specifically said maybe they can't read because of a learning disability like dyslexia, maybe they can't read because they just transferred him from another school and they were passing them along the grades, even though they couldn't read. But regardless, are you saying that it like a child who can't read in fourth grade, it doesn't have to be because of a medical disability, if like, the functional impact of the delay or the, you know, whatever the struggle or the challenge is, like a similar impact that a disability would have, like that child would be able to get special education services,

  Kim Kizito 49:28

  I'm saying when I say that I am typically thinking of the one off kid who was kidnapped and sitting in a basement, you know, for 10 years, and then they come. So I the reason I say that, like if a kid has gotten to fourth grade and cannot read, I'm instantly thinking there's some sort of missed disability but what schools have to they have to go through this checklist could this child not be reading because they miss school so you have kids that are in foster care that are going to you know, that are parents just don't don't or maybe they homeschooled and they didn't Pick up those things. And that's typically what I mean, they have to decide. And then I think about a client I think about her often who was adopted from a different country. And it was a war torn country. And she probably did not get much fundamental education. And the school came, she was speaking one language and came here and but her English was probably just as good as I think was French, her French language and but just was not doing well at all. And the school just chalked it up to a language barrier, as opposed to what it turned out to be, which was trauma from living in this war torn country and being she was in an orphanage and other country and just not getting a right you know, a good education. But schools have to check off check boxes for every evaluation to determine this is not because the child missed school, or because of a language barrier, or any of those other things that could look like a disability. And so, but you know, if you're coming to me and your kids in fourth grade, and they're not reading, I'm going to say, Well, what happened, I'm going to pull records, and I'm going to make sure I do have kids and miss a lot of school, and maybe they're not progressing or something like that. And the parent is telling me everything, but the fact that the kid has missed 56 out of 57 days.

  KC 51:15

  Okay, let me ask you a lightning round. So I'm going to give like a reason. And you tell me true or false, because I've been around a lot of other parents now, who are trying to get services for their kid for struggles, disabilities, things like that. And the various things that said, Okay, so can a school tell you that you can't have that accommodation? Because they can't afford it? Can a school

  Kim Kizito 51:38

  tell you they just need yes or no,

  KC 51:41

  let's do a lightning round first, and then we'll talk and then I'll ask, okay, can a school tell you? We can't give your kid that accommodation? Because we don't have enough staff? Can a school tell you, your child doesn't qualify because a doctor hasn't diagnosed them? Can a school tell you? Your kid doesn't qualify for special education services? Because they're not failing any classes? So these are like the top ones? Do you have any to add like ones that you hear a lot like things that schools will tell parents that oh, well, they can't get it because that was the last one. The last one was like they're not failing in school, or they haven't been diagnosed, or we don't have the money, we don't have the staff,

  Speaker 1 52:23

  I have a whole bunch of ones. They don't look autistic, they don't. But those are those are the top ones pretty much yeah, where they will try to what we call a delay or denying services. And what I say to parents all the time is you have all 50 states are the same. Okay, your state might be slightly different in terms of how it is that you request the services and things like that I always say put it in writing does not have to be a letter come in email, as long as you have a copy. But all states try to once you send this letter off saying, Hey, I think Kimberly is autistic, or I think I usually tell a parent, if you don't have a diagnosis, don't name the disability, just name, you know, just Google all the symptoms and just, you know, put all symptoms in there. Because the school you know, gets all well we can't diagnose and then they get you know, they get all semantics. But the school will at some point meet with you or discuss something with you to determine whether or not we're going to evaluate, right, so we do the letter here, North Carolina, you'd send out an email I think you'd really like be had, she's bouncing all over the place. You've called me five times in the past two weeks, you know, she's got suspended blah, blah, blah, I'd like to have her evaluated. Okay, Miss, because you don't we're gonna meet with you. We meet with me. And we go over all of the information. That is the meeting to talk about how to evaluate the child, the way you're talking and the way some of the things that you said, a lot of these teams use that meeting as the eligibility meeting. That is not an eligibility meeting. And eligibility meeting happens after a legal legally done evaluation. So if I'm sitting in a group of people, and usually it's a teacher, or a general education teacher, special education teacher or psychologist, maybe a speech therapist, and we're all talking about Kim, here in North Carolina, there's now each state's going to be different. Some states will say, okay, come on, in, let's find the documentation. Let's just go but a lot of states will want to have a meeting, you'll have a meeting, everybody will talk about it. And what I like to say is, look, I appreciate your professional opinion, because you're a teacher, or you are a psychologist or you are an occupational therapist or speech therapist or whatever. And you may have before we had the meeting, maybe you went and sat in the school in the building and you took a look at Kimberly, but this is not an eligibility meeting. This is a meeting to discuss the fact that hey, I just brought you an ADHD diagnosis. Therefore, that first prong does my child have a disability? Yes, you know, and we need to determine what types of evaluations To do so I see a lot of parents getting turned away because the school is using that meeting as an eligibility meeting when it's not. And so, the look, your professional opinion is one prong of the eligibility process. So if the speech therapist is telling me after my two week, you know, I would like to have my child evaluated looking, I sat in there and watch Kimberly and her articulation is fine or whatever, great, I appreciate that I still am entitled to a full comprehensive evaluation done. And so that's, you know, 60 days from now let's sign the paperwork, let's get it done. And I find when I am like, if someone needs me as an advocate, and they'll do a console with me, I'll let them know, look, let me let me save you some money. You know, I love money, just like everybody else, but I'm not gonna take it just, like, try this first, you know, and then if you're not getting anywhere, you know, maybe you need to bring me in. But usually it comes down to saying, Look, this is can't determine eligibility based on us just having a meeting, and you guys saying you don't see anything? And if they do, a lot of times they will do it. I'm gonna say not legally, but they won't be in compliance. So if I have a meeting with the team, and we haven't done any sort of evaluations, and they're just making the decision, well, you know, Casey's grades are fine. And then we look at Casey and I know that her grades are fine, because they're grading on participation and not actual work or, you know, whatever. There's all these other things that you know, grades are subjective. And they say, so we're not going to evaluate, well, if they don't they they're supposed to send you something called a prior written notice, which is a legal document that details all the reasons why, and also says, What are the evaluations? What's the information that you use to determine why you're not going to follow through with this? And a lot of times, I find that they don't do that, they'll just say no, and then the parent doesn't realize that they were supposed to follow a whole process. And so what I usually will say, if I'm consulting with someone, look, try this first try, you know, if they're telling you no, just say, Okay, could you please document that in a prior written notice? And that kind of puts the school a little bit on those, oh, this person knows what they're doing. And if they do that, then they are essentially saying and the prior written notice should be detailed. If they're saying that, that yeah, we conducted an evaluation, then you can say I disagree with the evaluation and then get somebody to pay for it. That's a whole different thing. But there's ways around that. And I say this knowing that there are teachers and people that say, you know, we just do not, we're just strapped, we don't have the resources. We don't have what I care about that. And I understand that however, the law has not changed. And so until the law changes, I'm just going to continue to advocate for these things to be handled the way the law says they will.

  KC 57:42

  Yeah, what I when I was talking to my husband about, you know, them talking about like, oh, we just don't have enough assessor. So it's taking a year. And I was actually he was like, that's not an answer. That's not an answer. And one of the things that we sort of talked about amongst ourselves is like, sometimes people will be like, Well, what do you want us to do? What do you want us to do? There's literally no this, that and the other. And I think it can be helpful to put this in the metaphor of a child that doesn't have a disability for people to truly understand how unacceptable of an answer it is, it would be like if your child just turned five, they're supposed to start kindergarten in you know, in August, and you got a letter in the mail that said, hey, just so you know, we're really short staffed of teachers this year. And so we're not actually going to be able to provide kindergarten to your town like Sorry, like your you know, if you're if you're east of Main Street, those children don't get to come to school because we don't have enough teachers now all are all across the country. You know, we don't support teachers and teachers are quitting and we're not paying teachers enough. And there are there are teacher shortages everywhere. But you you have never heard of a school district going I know will just refuse to educate a portion of our kids. And that is exactly what's happening when a school district tells you we can't give your child services that they need to access fair education. We don't have the budget this the same thing. Yeah. And

  Kim Kizito 59:11

  what I do a lot of the times if this hasn't happened with any of my clients recently, but if they're telling you Look Mrs. Johnson in the speech therapists, they had a car accident she's gonna be out for six weeks and we don't have anybody to service your child and so I want to know what's the plan What about Mr. Mahoney over at the other school or wherever and if they keep telling me that they're not going to be able to provide it that I'm giving them 10 days notice and this is something I would suggest if you're going to do that you this context of advocate or like me or attorney 10 days notice Okay, I'm gonna turn my camera off to you because I'm getting a note but 10 days notice to the school will say look, I'm going to get to go to ABC private speech to make up with my kids getting you know, not getting the speech that they need, and you're telling me it's gonna be six weeks the kids three they need these services, they're going to regress a lot of times say, well, we'll make it up in the summer, that's not good enough. In some circumstances, in some circumstances, it's fine. Kids may not need something immediately, but in a lot of circumstances is not. And so I would be contacting ABC private speech, hey, you know, Walnut Creek Elementary over here is not able to provide speech services, I would like to bring my child in on Saturdays. Currently, they're getting to 30 minute speech sessions a week, I'd like to bring them on Saturdays for an hour. And I want you to build a school. And sometimes that makes things happen.

  KC 1:00:33

  Yeah, all this all of a sudden, they found somebody. Yeah, are they paying for

  Kim Kizito 1:00:37

  it? You know, and so and then. So a lot of times, I'll say to parents, that evaluation that you have on your child is extremely helpful, I look at it that I say this to all of my clients. And I feel like I am not a gatekeeper, probably because I'm getting to that age where I'm gonna retire at some point. So I was given away all the secrets. But the evaluation is like the foundation of a house, you know, it's that evaluation where they're looking at all areas of need for your child, you want it to be solid, you want it to be correct. You don't want to have any issues with it. If you're pouring a foundation, and you're brand new house, and you drive by Oh, honey, let's go see our foundation of our house and you look and there's like a brick missing over here. And it's cracked on this end, and the builder happens to drive by and they're just like, hey, Mr. Mrs. Davis, we're gonna build your house tomorrow, you guys are gonna say the heck you're not there's a brick missing, it's cracked over here. So it's the same thing with an IEP. If that evaluation is not complete, or you disagree with it, or it's not solid, you need to get that straight before you continue to build from it build the IEP. And so I'm going off on tangents I know. But I want parents to fully understand that so that when they get to the IEP, and if there's any issues, for instance, Miss Johnson going on maternity leave, or got in a car accident and is out for six weeks, that evaluation has shown that your child needs intense speech regularly, and they're getting ready to tell you Look, we're not going to be able to do it for at least six weeks. And if you know what if she doesn't come back, and so on and so forth. And so you have something that that is documented need that you can say, Look, my kid can't go without this, because the evaluation says they can't. And therefore I'm gonna go over here to ABC private speech, before school twice a week to get this speech done. And I'm gonna, you know, I expect you guys to pay me don't reimburse it either reimburse or pay them directly.

  KC 1:02:34

  So if a parent is entering this process, can you give like, what would be your top tips for how a parent can best protect their children's rights through this process, like something that you think that every parent should be aware of as they start this process?

  Kim Kizito 1:02:50

  So let's talk about school age, okay, because zero to three is a slightly different process. I mean, it's the same process, but I feel like you're gonna you will get a lot of support was there because they're coming in your home, but when the Vonzell kid is in school, so say the kid is in school, the first thing that I tell all parents to do is every time you sit, if you sneeze or breathe IEP, the school is supposed to send you something called procedural safeguards. The term in and of itself makes no sense. But basically it is what are your rights as a parent, right? And so every state has these every single state, most of them are very similar. However, yours may have slight differences in terms of deadlines, things like that. So I tell parents when they say, Well, do you want a copy of your procedural safeguards? I asked. Yes, at least once a year, they require to offer to you at least once a year, but if they ask you at the medic opposite, yes, send it to me. And I look at the cover and conviction and I look to see if it's the same one that I had before the year is different. But I tell parents sit down with a glass of what you like to drink, I'm not going to judge and a highlighter and sit down and read that thing and go through it. And somewhere in those procedural safeguards. So it tells you about your rights, like what to do if you disagree how many days you may have, if you want to mediate meaning, you know, you want to have a impartial mediator, what type of rights you have, if you disagree with an evaluation, what happens you know,

  KC 1:04:18

  I conveniently had to ask for that piece of paper after I like I had told them not to violation Yeah, and I had told them like I want to get my kid assessed we had exchanged several emails about well, it's gonna be too long Well, it can't be too long we're gonna wait till I finally had to email with the statute and said You are required to send me the procedural safeguards within these amount of days and then I had them but it is something that it seems like you know, you shouldn't wait for them to give it to you. Yeah,

  Kim Kizito 1:04:45

  yeah, they kind of brush it I mean, and you know, again, I'm I have an 18 year old so back in the day wasn't an online thing. A lot of times it's online, but I used to sit and they would have this thing and we talked about it being wallpaper but they acted like it wasn't that big of a deal to read. It's not you know, and I I have clients from all walks of life, some have a, you know, advanced education, some didn't graduate high school. And so somewhere on there, it says, if you need help interpreting this, it's usually calling someone at the district and they can go over it with you. I have no problem with a parent doing that. And I think it should be done. I think all parents should understand their rights. Sometimes during the IEP meeting, they will ask, do you want us to go over the right? Yes. Just so you understand. So that that's the one big thing I want parents to understand their rights. The second thing I say to parents, especially if you don't want to bring an advocate with you, or you kind of want to do this on your own DIY advocacy, so to speak is with that same highlighter, and that same drink coffee, whenever get a highlighter, you are going through that evaluation, it is a difficult thing to do. Because let us just swallow whatever we're drinking and realize that it this was a document that's telling us all of the things that are quote unquote, wrong with our child, we don't like to say there's anything wrong with our child, but as well as so I put it in quotes, but all of the areas where your child has a need. And so it's hard to read, but you're going through that evaluation, and this is exactly what I do as the IEP strategist, I go through evaluations, I do it online, but I mean, go through it with a highlighter, and I highlight every area that shows that the child has a knee, every part of that evaluation. And once you understand that, and you agree with it, because if you're just like, you know, they completely forgot that he's six, and he's not potty trained or something. And then I might make notes, okay, well, they forgot this. Or, gosh, you know, he plugs his ears a lot. And they didn't do an occupational therapy evaluation. And I want to know how they're going to dress. So I might add those things on a piece of paper and say, you know, what, about this, this and this, so I have that. And then when I'm looking at an IEP say your child already has had an IEP for six years or whatever. And you're looking at a reevaluation, you're taking your highlight out, you're highlighting all of those deficits, then go over to the IEP, I expect all of the deficits from the evaluation to carry over to the section of the IEP called the present levels, and the present levels was just what's the kid doing now? How's he doing and all the areas of need. So if you did doesn't have any math issues, you probably won't see anything of any math section in the IEP. But say your kid has math issues. So if the evaluation says that the child is on a third grade level for math and your child is in fourth grade, then we expect that area of the evaluation would carry over as a deficit to the IEP present levels in math. Right. And so I just kind of match it up. Okay. The IEP says the kids not potty trained. Is that somewhere? I mean, the evaluation said that kids not potty trained. Is that somewhere on the IEP? Yes. Is the evaluation says the kids articulation is not at the age where it's supposed to be is that somewhere on the IEP? Yes, so I just did go through a match. I don't do it as meticulous as I'm explaining to you anymore. Because I've been doing this for 15 years, I kind of remember it, you know. And then I expect, though, that the present level section of the IEP, that section feeds, if you will, the goals. So every area of in the present levels, it tells you some of the strengths of the child, which is fine, but I tell clients all time, I'm not concerned with the child's strengths just yet, I'm just looking for all of the areas of need. And those areas of need should go from the present level. So the goal so anywhere, there is an area of need, I expect to see either a goal to address it. So if the kid is behind in math, and I want to see a math goal to help that kid, get to help fill in that gap or help strengthen that child in that area. Or maybe an accommodation. So if a child is showing that a child has is not sitting still, or has behavioral issues, I have kids that self harm. So like right now, I just looked it up before now I just looked at an evaluation for the child is hitting himself in the head, I see a little bit of everything. And I have a kid that well, let's see, I don't want to get this on the radio, but not a radio podcast. But I've kids that do you know things with body parts, you know that during the day that are you know, not things that you necessarily want to see in a classroom. And those are behaviors that may or may not require any sort of specially designed instruction. So I would expect to see any deficit on the in the present levels or any area of need, addressed in a goal or an accommodation or a modification, the difference being a modification is going to change what the child is learning. Usually that's academic. So if we have a child that has a significant cognitive delay, and may not be able to be on grade level with the other fifth graders in the class, maybe they're learning at a first grade level, we need to have modifications in the IEP to modify the work, we're not going to throw the kid in first grade, we're keeping the fifth grade, but we're going to modify the worst. So those are the things that I'm looking for. And then once I finished, I tell the parent, okay, all of those deficits need to be somewhere as a goal or an accommodation or a modification. If they aren't, then you know, we're making a little checklist to bring it up at the IEP meeting. And then that next section is the services and so that's pretty much it those services every goal that I see should be okay. companied by a service. So just to go over it again, the evaluation shows the deficits, deficits goes over to the IEP, which is where I see the present levels, present level shows us all the areas of need the present levels, feed the goals, the goals, feed the services. So if I have five goals, one for speech two for math, two for behavior, then I will look at the Services section of the IEP to see who is going to provide the services to meet the math goal, who's going to provide the services to meet the speech goal, who's going to provide the services to meet the behavior goal, how much services isn't that good a person gonna get? So if I've got two behavior goals, I expect that I'm probably going to have more in terms of services for that child, and maybe the one math goal, maybe not, I don't know. And then I'm going to see who's providing those goals. I'm always asking, Where did you come up with this number? What we're going to do 30 minutes of speech twice a week? How did you determine that? Well, you know, that's what we always start off at? Well, no. I want some a good answer would be this is what the evaluation dictates, you know. So those are the types of things that I look for. So that's what I tell parents, that is like IEP one on one? And if the SEC did, so that was kind of like a loaded. Second thing. The third thing I say is, if it's confusing, and it doesn't make sense to you, it's likely because it's being made to be confusing. Now, sometimes it's confusing, because it's you just a lot to read and everything. And you usually my parents understand, okay, this is just a lot, I don't understand what this number means. There's nothing like that. But if common sense tells you that your child needs speech services, and they've only got them in speech, 10 minutes, you know, once a week or something that just doesn't make sense to you, then you are likely correct. And I want the parents to sit there and look, I don't care. If a team thinks I'm an idiot for asking the question 30 different ways, I'm going to continue to ask the question until I understand or until they admit that they don't know what they're talking about, which usually doesn't happen. But I really want parents to feel empowered to continue to ask questions, and to not feel like they're being rushed through this process. This is your child. A lot of times the schools will just oh, well, we've only got an hour today. Okay, great. Well, let's set up another meeting, because I'm not done. So I really want parents to feel to understand that we are creating these little humans out here that we want to make sure that these kids are growing up and to be adults, and to be productive members of society. And sometimes the school is focusing just on that day or just on that year. And it's not it should be a bigger process than that.

  KC 1:12:36

  So would you suggest this is just like you'll me being the daughter of lawyers, but would you suggest to parents that they do all the communication that they can and writing? I mean, I know you can't necessarily do that in meetings.

  Kim Kizito 1:12:50

  Well, so you know, I record all my IEP meetings in states that are, so I'm in all 50 states. So in states that are one party recording states, then I record those, I'd let every state to know that I'm recording. But in one party recording states, I don't have to ask for permission in a two party recording state, I usually ask the parent to ask the team to record the meeting, parents that don't want to get up and sit through a meeting. And remember everything you can upload that recording to a private YouTube to have it it'll transcribe it for free. Now, I may not transcribe everything perfectly, but But you know, we'll transcribe that. And then you can say, okay, now I have a transcription, I can look and see what everything was said. But I really do prefer to have everything in writing. And so when I'm dealing with a team, unfortunately, if there is any sort of contention issues areas, somebody's mad suspension, whatever, a lot of times the team, the schools will want to deal with the parents verbally. And so they may catch in the car line, or call you on the phone really quickly, or things like that. In those cases, I'll tell the parent, just follow up with an email and you don't you know, you don't have to be that quote, unquote, problem parent. And you shouldn't have to explain why you're following up with an email. But you'd say, Hey, I just want to put this in writing. So I can remember what was said, you said that Johnny was kicked by Susie in the shins, and he had to go to the office and then he got out and he punches in the head and now he's suspended or whatever. And so I expect that at some point, I'm gonna get the documentation, you know, the the report for that, but thank you for talking to me. I cannot tell you the number of times the parent told me something and then it comes out in the IEP meeting that oh, you know, you might have misunderstood that. I didn't say it like that, but I met was this and so that's why I really prefer to have parents do have things in writing and record if you're, you're able, I never want a parent to secretly record I just, you know, in many states, it's illegal, first of all, but secondly, I really, you know, I'm not about trying to surprise teams. I don't think anybody goes into education to hurt kids. There's certainly no money in it. I think that we are in a lot of cities. patients where we just don't have those resources. But and sometimes parents get really mad because of what's happening with their kids. But I do think that, you know, trying to work with the team, as much as possible is going to help a parent in the end. And so you said, Your daughter of attorneys, I sit in some of these due process due process is like court for school for people that don't understand if you're suing the school because of some special education. So sometimes I've testified or I am the advocate that the attorney will hire to help in these things. And the judges want to see proof that you have tried to work through the system, the judges don't want to see you in court. And they really go above and beyond, especially with former Special Ed perspective anyway, to try to keep you from getting to the point where a judge needs to decide the case. And a lot of times, I mean, they do if you were to file due process, there's a process you have to go through a resolution meeting, which is just basically another IEP meeting, you have to process where you can determine that you have mediation, where and this is all before you actually go in front of an administrative law judge if it gets to that point. So if you are the parents like, well, I didn't, you know, I didn't want to talk to them anymore, or I take them without my without them knowing and that kind of thing, a judge is going to look at that as well. You didn't even try to work with a school, even if you know, you have proof that the teacher is the worst one in the world. And the principal kicks everybody and steals everyone's lunches and all these horrible things, you know, a judge is still going to want to see that you follow the proper chain of command that you you know, went and met with them and that you have lots of proof that look, I did try to talk to them. I did I volunteered I'm the treasurer of the PTA you know, all of these things, and I still wasn't getting anywhere. And so you don't want to I see on Tik Tok and things all the time was like, oh, service school, so the school attorney is not even gonna take your case. And I turned to the site, and this case

  KC 1:16:53

  isn't ready. There's things that you definitely have to do before you can sue a school anyways. So let me ask you this, if this comes up a lot in circles that I'm in have parents of disabled children is a school allowed to call you and make you come pick up your kid because of XYZ, they should

  Kim Kizito 1:17:11

  call you if your child is suspended. But what I see all the time is, you know, Kimberly is all over the place. And she you know, called the teacher the B word and she knocked over Jose's lunch. And so we need you to come pick her up, well, is she getting suspended? Because so what kids what schools should not do is send a child home due to any sort of disciplinary things without suspending. And so the short answer is no, I want if I want for the record, I want the child to be suspended. And a lot of times a school will try to get a parent to say to just pick up the child. And that's not an intervention.

  KC 1:17:53

  Why is it so important that the child be officially suspended because

  Kim Kizito 1:17:57

  the child who has a disability or this is a disability, meaning the child has a 504 has an IEP, or the school knows that the child has a disability. So maybe the kid has ADHD and takes medication every day and the parent has to send him a doctor's note or if the school knows has a kid, the kid has a disability, but they don't have an IEP or 504 Yet those children have a layer of protection, the layer of protection is not that they can't be suspended. Any kid can be suspended if they you know, clock, the teacher upside the head or wherever or break any sort of code of conduct. But a child that has a disability cannot be suspended beyond 10 days without having something called a manifestation determination hearing. And those days don't have to be consecutive. So if you're getting a call every other week to pick up Jr. And it's been nine weeks and you're on week nine or when they call you to week 10. But they're not posting or they're not coding it as a suspension, then they can just continue to call you but if that child gets to the 11th suspension, and this is this does not have to be a whole day. It can be the last hour of school, whatever it is, they're calling you to pick him up due to a disciplinary issue. Then the fingers turned back to the school in a manifestation determination hearing a manifestation determination hearing and it sounds more official than it is it's a hearing but it's kind of like an IEP meeting. It's basically anybody that was involved let's say Jose got in a fight and they had been they'd called Jose's mom eight other times to pick him up from school and didn't code those suspension now, whether they call it those suspensions or not there's still suspension so if they're calling me I'm like, you know, I don't care if they put it in suspension or not, it's still suspension and he actually hit somebody and he's gonna get some actually suspended for three days. Well, that brings our total to past 10. We need to have a manifestation determination hearing that manifestation determination hearing is to determine is this behavior that caused this suspension that goes over the 10 days due to the child's disability a manifestation of the child's disability Now, that doesn't mean we're excusing it, we're just trying to determine was this kid you know that this kid whatever happened? Was it due to the kids disability? And or is that behavior due to the failure and this harm is failure? I'm not making it up. It's a legal term failure of the IEP team to follow the IEP. And a yes to either or both of those questions means the fingers term back to the school, the child cannot be suspended beyond 10 days, and the school has to get together and figure out how are we going to service this child? How are we going to help this child a little bit more. So what I see is schools do not want to count these days, because they know at some point, if they get past 10, the spotlight will be on them. And it makes

  KC 1:20:47

  sense, right? Because if a child is being sent home over and over as and I've had this happen to a friend of mine, I mean, they were calling every day come get Johnny calm, get Johnny Johnny's too much Johnny's having a meltdown, Johnny through a pencil, and but they were also at the same time, like not providing enough services to support Johnny and they weren't coding them as suspensions. And so your recommendation is, you know, if you get a call and they say, you know, you need to come pick up Johnny that I need to ask, is Johnny being suspended? And if they say no, yep.

  Kim Kizito 1:21:17

  Is Johnny being suspended? If the answer is no, then I'll pick up Johnny when school is over.

  KC 1:21:22

  So they can't make me come get Johnny unless they're suspending him. If he's not like, medically ill, I

  Kim Kizito 1:21:27

  guess. Yeah, yeah. And so now, here's the situation. And again, I always want people to get an advocate in these types of situations. And I know you have some probably some sort of disclaimer with the show. But you know, I've seen schools do this. So they'll call the police because the police are not a police are not bound by an IEP. So I've had kids get handcuffs I've had kicked it, hogtied. I can I really have seen a little bit of everything. Because the police don't they don't have to follow an IEP. And so they might say, but what I typically see happen is the parent coming to the school saying look as Johnny suspended or have picked the school up, put pick the kid up, and then later after they've talked to me, I'm like, Look, we need to call that a suspension. The principal comes back. Well, we were just asking you to come help calm them down. You didn't have to take them you voluntarily signed him out. So it is not a suspect. In which case, I kind of jumped out I'm like, Yes, it is. But yeah,

  KC 1:22:18

  okay, so I'm really trying to protect myself and my family, my kid, it's not maybe necessarily the best thing you know, you know, your kid, you know, your your school to say, I'm not coming, but to make sure that you have some documentation that they did, in fact, ask you to take him home. So if I say you're asking me to take him home, it's not a suspension. Okay. Can you email that to me? I want that in writing. Yeah.

  Kim Kizito 1:22:41

  And if they won't, I'm going to email them. And I'll email everybody on the team. Johnny, you guys want the I have asked you sent Johnny through a pencil, you want me to come pick him up for the fifth time. This is the fifth time this is where I want parents to make sure that they're writing all this stuff down or keeping records of this for the fifth time. And I've asked whether or not he's suspended, you have said no. And so therefore, I don't need to pick him up. I want to understand that I do not need to pick him up. And then you're calling me instead? Because the question is, well, why are you calling me that? Well, you know, we think that you can help calm them down. I know, I can help calm them down. However, I would like for you guys, if you don't, guys don't know what to do to calm him down. And we need to discuss how to train you to get someone to calm him down. And I also want to say for the record, I do not want the police call. Now, that doesn't mean they're not going to call the police. But I'm pretty proactive with these types of things. I do not want the police to be used, I don't want to emergency psychiatric team to be used. I do want to be called however, if you're not going to suspend my child, and all you need is for me to come and calm my child down. I think the bigger issue is I am not supposed to be the intervention for my child during the school day, you got them six and a half hours a day, I'll take care of the other times. And so as they get in a way that to not make the school feel like they have their hands tied, but to offer them solutions to help with my kid because I am not, quite frankly, I'm not always able to come, I may not be able to get off work. I have people that work in areas where they can't even be reached by phone or parents that aren't you know, necessarily stay at home, stay my job, stay home, I could get up and go if I needed to. But not everybody can do that. And so

  KC 1:24:25

  and if we point it back to the IEP, we can point it back to you know, here is an issue that is impeding Johnny's ability to access fair education, which means we need an effective intervention. And like the IEP needs to have an effective intervention either, you know, and it can't be mom comes up to the school every day, right like so either the you don't have an intervention or the interventions are effective. Either way, like let's get together and be collaborative and find an intervention that works. I think that's really helpful because I think that's a spot that a lot of parents find themselves in.

  Kim Kizito 1:24:57

  Yeah, and sometimes what I say to parents Long time, we have enough guilt, okay, and a lot of times this is a mom, a lot of times it's a dad, we have enough guilt as parents, when our kids have disabilities feeling as if we did something wrong, when quite frankly, a lot of this is genetic, or it's, you know, the, it's a, it's something that we really didn't have a lot of control over. But unfortunately, our guilt becomes the low hanging fruit that is used against us to make us feel bad for you know, whatever it is our child is doing that is not quote unquote, considered normal. And therefore, we're going to bend over backwards to try to help our kid it's hard when you're a parent, especially if your child has like, I've got a kid in Texas, that is really frustrated, get very frustrated, if things do not go, the way they're supposed to go is because of his disability. But the parent feels horrible about, you know, and not trying to hurt anyone else people have gotten in the way before. And so the parent wants to be there for the child. Well, I get that. But that is a very short term solution, we've got to figure out how to get the team on board to figure out ways to help the child and there are ways out there, it's just a matter of recognizing that one, it's hard to it costs money, three, we have to figure out where to get that money from we shouldn't be getting some of it from the idea, but we you know, it comes down to who you're voting on your school board, how are they determined about how they're going to allocate funds? Are they hiring a six football coach and not providing, you know, a sensory room? So it just depends. And so it's a huge issue that I think a lot of parents don't see. And a lot of times the schools, unfortunately, are good with playing the parents against the teachers when we should all be on the same team. Yeah,

  KC 1:26:44

  Kim, thank you so much for your wealth of knowledge and where can people find you online if they want to follow you or if they're interested in advocacy, or they need an advocate for themselves?

  Kim Kizito 1:26:56

  I am the IEP strategist everywhere. So it's at the IEP strategist on Instagram, Facebook and Tik Tok, and then my website is the IEP strategist.com

  KC 1:27:08

  Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai