84: Make Friendships Easier with the Six Besties Theory with Hello Hayes

Friendships can be very complicated and fragile while at the same time solid and fulfilling.

Even though our “besties” may come and go across our lifetime, they can each bring something valuable and unique to the friendship table. In this episode, we are taking a closer look at relationships, specifically friendships in all their complex and nuanced forms. My guest is content creator and podcaster, Hello Hayes. She answers questions from her community each week about navigating turbulence in our relationships with each other, work, and ourselves. Our conversation takes a closer look at her intriguing theory of the six different kinds of best friends. Join us!

Show Highlights:

●      Hayes’s background as a writer, an empathetic person, an “old soul,” and a good listener

●      The natural shifts in friendships as life changes and phases unfold

●      Hayes’s six besties theory: (based on the premise that we have different friends in life for different purposes)

○      The Good Time Bestie

○      The Dead Body Bestie

○      The Work Bestie

○      The North Star Bestie

○      The OG Bestie

○      The Seasonal Bestie

●      The mental health piece of friendship

●      Practice your self-awareness muscle: Be confident in trusting your gut!

●      The basis for Hayes’s advice to people about their relationships

●      Knowing when it’s time to face a painful heartbreak and move on

●      Having tough conversations with the right words without being accusatory

Resources and Links:

Connect with Hello Hayes: Hello Hayes podcast, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, and email (to submit a question) hellohayesadvice@gmail.com 

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

• Transcript

  KC 0:05

  Hello, you Sentient ball of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, KC Davis. And today we're going to talk about relationships, friendships, all things complex, nuanced. And I'll just sort of hard to figure out when it comes to relationships, specifically friendships. And I'm here with Hayes from Hello Hayes. She is a content creator, a podcaster. She has a weekly advice column. And I first stumbled on her when it was this tick tock that you did Hayes about your theory about six different kinds of best friends. And so I want to talk about that I want to talk about other things. But first of all, thank you so much for being here.

  Hello Hayes 0:39

  Casey, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. And I don't remember if I said this to you in in our email, but I've been trying to like be on the lookout for signs from the universe that I'm going in the right direction. And I first became I first was introduced to your work, maybe about a year ago from a friend of a friend and former colleague of mine, Pooja Lakshman, women's mental health doc on Instagram, and she I forget how it came up. But she was the one who introduced me to your work, and I thought you were amazing. And then when I saw your name in my inbox, that was a sign from the universe for me that I have in the right direction. So thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Oh,

  KC 1:14

  my gosh, thank you so much. First of all, I think that your advice column, I've watched a few of your answers. And it's so well done. Like how did you get to a place of having all of this nuanced insight into relationships? Like, what's your background?

  Hello Hayes 1:28

  I wish I had a perfect answer for that. I think that from a very, like, from a very young age, I was an old soul. And I've always been a very empathic person who feels and notices everything. And that's probably why I am a writer, and I've always been a writer, it comes where does it come from? I mean, I started go, I my parents got divorced when I was in middle school. And I started seeing a therapist when I was in sixth or seventh grade. And I've had a couple of I've had two really important like, relationships with therapists. And I think that learning how to unpack my feelings and understand my behavior and how my feelings were impacting my behavior, like I started doing that work when I was 1112. And that naturally, I think that loss, my natural gifts as a listener and empathic person and a writer, I think I've just through, you know, a cascade of events have landed me here. Well, I

  KC 2:19

  really relate to the way that you think because it's almost like pattern recognition when it comes to soft sciences, right, and recognizing sort of the logical principles of truth and how they intersect with other logical principles of truth and things like that. And I have to tell you, you know, when I first came across your Tiktok, about the six besties theory, the reason why I thought it was so powerful is because I had had interesting experiences with friendships, right. And it immediately reminded me of a phone call that I got one time. And so I got sober when I was really, really young. And I got sober with a bunch of other girls that were my age, we were like, 1819 at the time, and we ran around like a little pack. I mean, we were like doing everything together. And then we kind of, you know, grew up together five, six years, we eventually all started to kind of get married and have kids and I had a friend, I just started dating someone who would end up being my husband, I had a friend that had gotten married and gotten pregnant and kind of moved to not like far away, but like 45 minutes away, and they're like, our third friend had gotten married. All right, and so I get this phone call one day, and it's her. And she is so angry with me. And she is so heartbroken. And she tells me that she feels like I have just abandoned our friendship. And that, you know, I haven't been there for her and I am that I have not pursued her friendship. And I was totally taken by surprise, because as she described the state of our relationship, I couldn't argue with her. Like, we didn't really talk that much. We didn't ever hang out or really invite each other to hang out. But what was so interesting was how different she experienced that emotionally and how different I did because I felt as though we were having this natural, like, other things are happening, life's happening. And we're just kind of going our own ways. And even though she and I went from like talking every day, well, at one point we were roommates to like not talking that often. Honestly, I still felt like she was my best friend. And she felt like we weren't best friends anymore.

  Hello Hayes 4:21

  Isn't that so interesting? how two people can the same thing can be happening, and you both can be experiencing it so differently. And I wonder sometimes why that is why some people are okay with that natural shift automatically and why some people aren't. And I'm sure there's sort of like we could come at that from the brain angle and how all of our brains look different and that might have something to do with it. But continue on. How did you respond to that phone call? Well, I

  KC 4:46

  kind of got upset with her and was like, Well, I'm not calling you but you're not calling me and like I was sort of operating on good faith and I thought you know that we were fine. And I just thought everybody was starting to have these separate lives and You know, on the other hand, like one of our other really good friends were a similar like, situation where we weren't like talking everyday what but she and I never had that conflict, like we felt fine about it. And then our other friend flat moved to the other end of the world. And we talk once a year. And we're kind of like, well, I guess she's never talking to us again. And yet she feels like we're thick as thieves. And so, you know, we just kind of had to sit down and talk about what we were both feeling and sort of recognize that like, there are these times in life where there is no objective right side of things. It's just like different emotional experiences that are valid. And it had me reflect on this idea that I am someone who has always approached friendships and been fine with like the ebb and flow of them, like I have best friends that were best friends for two years, and I never talked to them again. And so when you were like, listen, sometimes you have a seasonal bestie. I was

  Hello Hayes 5:54

  like, oh, yeah, that happens. Right? You can think of the people in your life. Yeah. And

  KC 5:57

  I go through periods of time where like one friend I'm talking to every day, and they have like daily updates about my life, and then I won't talk to them for months. And it'll be a different friend that I'm like doing the daily things with. And so I like this idea that sometimes we feel like someone's being a bad friend, but we're just on different pages about what our friendship is, or is doing or supposed to be doing. And then sometimes we can have a friend that I mean, for lack of a, you know, more nuanced term is like a bad friend. But in our head, we're like, oh, that's just so and so she's like, so and so. Right. So anyway, so let's get into it. Like, tell me about this theory you have about the different kinds of besties.

  Hello Hayes 6:33

  So the six besties theory is all about the idea that we have different friends in life for different purposes. And I don't mean purpose than like a transactional, every person in your life must fill a role. I don't mean it. In that way. I mean it to really help people. And the theory is designed to support people who are feeling confused about the state of some of their friendships disconnected, or maybe like for people who feel that many of their friendships aren't meeting their expectations, they're feeling disappointed. And I'll get into what the six different besties are. But the whole premise of it is that we cannot expect one person in our life to fulfill every single need we have, every friend, every person you meet, has their own unique gifts and their own limitations. Or maybe limitations isn't even the right word. But not everybody is going to be everything. And I have started to notice in my both consuming content online, and also in the stories people were sending me to my column that a lot of people are feeling disappointed in their friends, because they want the friends to be every single thing. And what I started to observe and reading people's stories is that maybe someone has a friend who they've known for a long time, and the friend is always down to go out to dinner, or go out to drinks do concerts travel, they love the friend, they love spending time with the friend. But when something has happened in the in their own personal life, maybe someone is sick, or they've been going through a season of depression, or you know what not a challenging moment, this friend like didn't support them wasn't able to show up in the way that they think that they would show up for a friend. And this person then might want to write off the friendship, this person actually I'm going to break up with this friend, or maybe they aren't, they don't actually care about me when really, maybe this friend is what I would call a good time bestie and a good time. Bestie is someone who you have a great time with, you know, you love they make you laugh, which is such an important trait and a friend. It's not that they're not a good friend, but they might not have the emotional depth of someone else. And my hope is that in going and having these six different archetypes for friends, we can start to appreciate the people in our life for what they provide, and what they do bring to the table instead of just focusing on their limitation. So the six besties are there's the good time bestie, who you know, as I just described, as you know, there for a good time. But to be clear, the goodtime bestie is not vapid or like empty. They still are a good friend. But they're the person that you I

  KC 8:56

  think you had an example one time where you said like the good time bestie still shows up for you maybe when something bad has happened, but they're like the one that shows up with margaritas. Exactly exactly. Like I'm here to cheer you up. And it's like, but that's maybe not what you need in that moment. And that's okay. It's different than one that's like, oh, wait feelings, nothing. You.

  Hello Hayes 9:14

  Right, right, right, right, right. We're not talking about the person that's like, let's just, let's just avoid that because hard things are not for me. They show up for you with margaritas. I love the way you said that. So there's the good time bestie there's the dead body bestie who is the person that you know, you could even if you haven't spoken to them in years, you could call them up and they would help you fix any problem. Like they're not going to judge you for whatever maths that you have found yourself in and they would never say to you Well, you haven't called me in six months. So why do you think I would help you? There's the work bestie

  KC 9:40

  and that's what that friend was for me? Yeah, because we had kind of grown into separate lives and we continue to after that I moved to a different city. You know, we kind of grew into slightly different people. We didn't have very much in common and we even like visited each other a few times and kind of had this moment of like, Oh, we're really different people now. Oh, and I had a couple more conflicts, and then we'd kind of just like, let it lie we were like, and I wrote her a letter, I remember being like, I love you, I would move a dead body for you. I literally said that up and move a dead body for you. But like, I just don't think we have much to have like a current sort of day to day connection. And she did have tragedy in her life, about a year after that. And I did drop everything and show up the next day hours and hours away, and held her while she cried. And both of us were like, nothing that happened matters. I'm here, and I'm gonna do whatever needs and so that was always such a like, you know, and you're right, like, that looks different than someone who thinks will a best friend to someone you talk to every day and how sad

  Hello Hayes 10:39

  I guess what's been really beautiful for me in my life and expanding my friendships, it like it would be so sad if I thought that a best friend is only somebody I talked to every day because I'd be letting go of all of these wonderful, rich friendships that I've made over 20. I mean, I'm going to be 3120 30 years. I don't talk to everybody every day, but I cherish and love them and appreciate them for who they are. Thank you for sharing that story. I was on work bestie. So work bestie has been is a cute bestie. To me, this can sometimes be a controversial one. Some folks feel like work is not for friendship. As a person who has always really put themselves into their work. I cannot imagine any of my corporate ish jobs without having I worked bestie and some of my work besties have actually become what I call a North Star bestie and a North Star bestie is like the person I describe it as a conversations with them help guide you home, like they are a friend that's a compass. And when you even if you don't speak to them every day, when you do you're just like that made me feel more like myself.

  KC 11:38

  Yeah, and is that usually someone you've known a long time?

  Hello Hayes 11:41

  Not always, sometimes it is. But I have that connection with people who I've met last month. You know, sometimes I think you can meet someone right away. And they just feel like a soul sister. Yeah, yeah, there's also the OG bestie, which is short for the original bestie. And that's someone who like knows your roots, maybe you grew up together and the OG bestie is the bestie that I think a lot of people really struggle with your story about the dead body bestie. I think that could also potentially be considered an OG bestie, I noticed that the trouble often comes up there during a life change, like going to college or starting a job when life is happening. And suddenly your oldest friend who used to talk to you every day, and you had all your classes together, now you're not talking as much I see a lot of people calling for a friendship breakup with an OG bestie, when really, you have to just let some when really life has just happened. And people have more responsibilities, and their lives are being opened up in different ways and have to dedicate their time in different ways. I

  KC 12:36

  think that's so true. Like, particularly around getting married. Like, in my experience, when a friend got married, you didn't really see them much anymore. And when I got married, and particularly when I had kids, it was like, okay, like, everyone kind of circles the wagons in their little like nuclear family. And whether that's right, wrong, good or bad. Like, I think sometimes we do that from a place of kind of self absorption. But I think sometimes we do that from a place of survival. Like, it's hard to, you know, raise a family in today's economy and climate and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, we don't maybe have the the multigenerational support that we would like to have. And so we're just sort of exhausted and don't have much to give outside of that. But I think you're you kind of hit the nail on the head that like that transition is difficult. And I've had OG friends that can swerve and do that too. And then ones that have struggled with that. And the wildest part was that conversation I had with my friend where I had said, like, Hey, I'm not treating you differently than I'm treating the other friends or whatever. Like I thought we were just all going through this. And what she said to me was, but I'm not as close to them as I am to you. And I don't think you realize nobody is as close to each other as we all are to you. Well, and in my head. We were this group of you know, four that we're always like, yeah, sometimes we all hang out all four sometimes it was pairs or three or four or whatever. And that really blew my mind. She was like no like the deepest connections are with you. You're like the one holding the little star together. I was like oh shit.

  Hello Hayes 14:08

  Yeah. Well, you That makes total sense to me even in the few minutes of speaking to you and you know, listening to you speak online. Like it's the what's it called when something is your is your Achilles heel when something is your gift, and it's also the thing that can bring you down like that is not a cost. But what's the I don't know what the word I'm looking for is but it is a ramp. It's a repercussion of being the energy and being a person that people are drawn towards. That's, I can see how that would be a totally mind blowing moment.

  KC 14:37

  Okay, we've got the work bestie the dead body bestie the fun time bestie, the OG bestie, the Northstar bestie, who's the last one or the second toss one seasonal,

  Hello Hayes 14:46

  and the seasonal bestie the seasonal bestie. So the seasonal bestie is really born from like needing to have people in your life who are in the same season as you and we can define a season as you're a new mom. We could define a season at As I'm really into my career right now, so I like need to have people in my life who are in that same career focused mindset. You could be doing intramural volleyball, whatever the thing is, it's someone in your life who can relate to this thing that you're passionate about. Without that person, you could get frustrated with your Northstar bestie, because they can't engage with you about your creative writing projects, because they're not a creative writer, and they don't understand what it means to you know, spend hours a day on your book that might go nowhere. That is,

  KC 15:28

  I always thought I was weird for being like, yeah, I have best friends that I never talked to. And then I have best friends I talked to all the time, but they'll be my best friend for like three years, and then I'll never talk to them again. And then not even because there's like a friend breakup or anything, like if I saw him on the street, I'm sure we'd be happy to see each other, but they just I mean, things just kind of like drift in and out. And for me, that's always felt natural and normal. But I know that that's not true for everyone, like not everyone experiences those like ebbs and flows, like the closeness and like the proximity shifts as normal or as natural or especially I guess, if you're not just like, as I've ebbed away from one, I felt like I was like flowing into another. But that was like the big shift that I had with my friend was she was like, I had never been any I didn't have anybody to ebb into it was just you over there.

  Hello Hayes 16:12

  And that's, I guess, another side effects that I hope what I've seen that the six bestie theory has done for people is that it's helped them see that shifts are normal, and that their feelings about the shift are okay and valid, but that they're not necessarily something to like you shouldn't necessarily allow it to impact your behavior. It's okay if you have a feeling about the shift. But the shift doesn't need to mean anything more than that. So it's I've seen that it's helped people just see what else is out there. It's helped them shift their perspective. What I also hope it does is that I hope it inspires people to continue to build their network of friends, because I do think these shifts are easier to manage when you have more relationships in your life. And I think you can only have more relationships in your life, when you don't put too much pressure on any one of them to be everything's a domino effect. When you create space in your friendships, for people to be who they are, get provide what they can both be valuable to each other. Instead of this one friendship has to be you know, I can only have one best friend and we have to talk every single day and can feel like it's just it can be too tight around your neck when you release the grip a little bit. I think people will be surprised at how much more abundance they have in their relationships.

  KC 17:20

  It is kind of the nice thing. I mean, if you're a person that is monogamous, and when you're in your romantic relationships, it is like one of the things that's highly beneficial about friendships that you're not going to find in your monogamous romantic relationship was like, that's your person. And that's it. It's like, you really don't need everyone to be everything. And I also feel like one of the hardest things for people is that balance between, okay, I don't I know everyone's imperfect, and I don't want to like be too hard on someone or cut somebody off, I want to be gracious, I want to give second chances. But at the same time, like I want to have boundaries. And so there's this weird, like, how do I know when the issue is me? And I'm just not flowing? How I should? Or or I'm just not? How do I know when my expectations are too high? Or how do I know when I'm struggling to stand up for myself? Or when you know how far is too far? Like that's kind of like the crux of what people struggle with. And I feel like your theory is also really helpful for that. Because, you know, it's one thing to be the, I don't know, like, I guess the example from earlier like to be the good time bestie that shows up with margaritas. And it's like, you know, I know if I'm going through a hard time like whether or not I really need margaritas, like I probably don't like maybe sometimes I do but like probably not who I'm calling after a death after that, right? Like and being able to reach out to people that have those strengths, not because they're like better or worse than someone else. And I just wonder how you know, that's just a difficult thing. Like, okay, my friend has done this thing. And it bothers me. What do I do with that?

  Hello Hayes 18:51

  Well, I think part of it bothers me moment is an interesting moment, because it's like, why does it bother me? I want to learn more about what this means for this to bother me. Why does it bother me that their way of showing love is through margaritas? And I don't know what the answer to that is. But I think that piece of self awareness, and like questioning why something bothers you is important.

  KC 19:13

  Yeah. I also think of it in terms like I went to rehab when I was 16. And there was only 16 girls in the rehab. And so we all became extremely close. And you know, then we get out kind of around the same time. And it's like you're very close. And there's this back and forth like reciprocal nature, like so in, you know, I shared with you I'm writing a book about relationships right now. And one of the things that I've been writing about is, you know, how do you make some of those decisions about like, do I want to push away from this relationship? And I don't even say like, end it or cut it off? It's more a question of do I lean into this? Or do I get some space from this or disengaged from this in some way, whether that's like fully disengaged or just emotionally disengaged or rethink my expectations about what can reasonably come from this relationship, right. And I always think about like this dear, dear friend that I had, where, for a long time, we had a really reciprocal relationship, like, sometimes I was in the shit, and I was like, needing to lean on her for a lot. And then you know, she would be in the shit. And she'd be needing to lean on me for a lot. And then like, we got to this period of time, and we we live together all this, like, we got to this period of time, though, where, like, she started to struggle a lot more, and her capacity to be there for me was not as much as my capacity to be there for her. And that's okay. Because we'd always had this sort of, like, you know, one person has a little more needs than the other, and then it flips. And we kind of go back and forth, but like, it went year after year after year, right, and then there's some like, hey, let's hang out, you know, getting ghosted, not getting calls back, you show up, they're not there, and just sort of because of their own sort of like demons that they're facing. And, you know, at some point, you know, you're going, Okay, I love this person, but I have to revisit their ability to be there for me. And it doesn't mean I throw them away. But it does mean that like, if I have needs, I need to go find other relationships to get those needs, taken care of and addressed. And like this is no longer the friend that I can expect to show up for me because they can't, and I can still love them. And I can still like want to be in relationship with them. But I think that's like, the hardest thing is having to rethink, you know, and I mean, obviously, it's different if they're like hurting or harming you, versus just like not being able to show up for you.

  Hello Hayes 21:29

  Yeah, the mental health piece of the conversation, like when a friend is struggling with their mental health to the point where they are either just passive in your relationship, or they are doing things that are actively harming you. It's a whole other complicated layer to this conversation, that six besties theory can sometimes be helpful for, I think, in the example that you're describing when you can, when it's not really hurting you. And you're able to say, Well, I just know I can't go to this person for this type of thing anymore. I think six biases can be helpful there. But when a friend is potentially bringing out the worst in you, or is when we get into impacting your mental health territory, it's a different conversation and a very challenging one that I think about a lot like I get a version of this letter, in my advice column submission a lot, which is like, I have a friend who is terrible to be around because they're struggling, and I feel for them. And I've suggested XYZ, I've done XYZ, but I can't support them. I don't know how to help them. And every time I speak to them, it leaves me feeling empty. What's the strategy there? And I have been thinking about that a lot. And I don't have an answer yet. But it's an important, I do think that conversation is important, too. It's so

  KC 22:37

  hard. But I do think that your six besties theory is helpful in imagining, like I can imagine like, Okay, this friend is now in a different category. And there's this room for different categories. But like the principles of like, non harm, non abuse are still there. Because I think that's what it is we get in our head, like a good friend looks like this. And anyone not looking like this is being a bad friend. And so bad friends, we should, right? And I like the idea of going okay, actually, maybe they're just this different top. And like, I also think of it as like a party, like let's say you throw a party, right, you're gonna have some friends that you invite to the party that like RSVP, and they ask what they can bring, and then they show up with that thing. And then like, they have a great time at the party, and then they help you clean up afterwards. Right? And that's like this, like 100% balanced symbiotic relationship kind of thing, right? And then you'll have, you know, that's like, oh, man, a good friend. And then when people start to struggle with friends, or they're disappointed in their friends, I think it's helpful to recognize whether you're looking at like, and, you know, obviously subordinates be like passive or active problems, because like a friend that maybe didn't RSVP and showed up or said they'd be there and then didn't, is different, or like, shows up, like didn't bring the thing they said they would, that's different than a friend that like shows up and like flips a table over, for sure, for sure. You know what I mean? Like, or that like shows up and like steals money from you when they leave, or, like, starts a fight with another friend, like, which

  Hello Hayes 24:00

  is an actual, it's funny, you use that example, because I was just reading a submission of someone who has a friend who constantly steals things from the house when they have people over. So it's funny that you just said that I know. Do you

  KC 24:11

  what I mean, but like that, to me is different. And like, it could be from the same mental health problems like you know, the reality is is like we have to not only look at like what's causing this but also what the impact to us is because the reality is you know, if you have a friend that like is having like a passive issues like they're just not showing up the way you wish they would that's different than a friend that shows up and actively hurts you actively harms you because like, you can have empathy and say like, I mean, how many times you're gonna invite the same friend to the party that you know is gonna come and steal the money and punch your boyfriend.

  Hello Hayes 24:45

  Right, right. Yeah. And I think that like on the seesaw, this is it me or is it them is a space that a lot of people struggle with of knowing which one it is and I think that part of getting more confident and being able to tell if it's you or if it's them is doing is learning more about yourself and how you react to things and what your own limitations are. That's how I like to separate from friendships I've been, there have been some times over the last year or two where I have ignored my gut. And at the time, when I ignored my gut, I felt my gut. But I was not trusting my gut. I wasn't trusting my gut, I was saying, Well, I wasn't trusting my gut. And I've been trying to be more intentional recently about getting back in touch with myself looking at those situations where I wasn't able to trust my gut. What did those like trigger in me? Why was I feeling not so confident in myself. And as I've been doing that work, I'm now getting more confident again, in trusting my gut. And I think the same thing can happen with friendship, but you have to spend some time looking at yourself noticing what bothers you what triggers you asking other people for feedback, people you trust, whether it's someone you live with a family member, another close friend, like, that's all been really helpful for me outside of friendships, as I tried to figure out when it's a me problem, or when it's a them problem, or where it's somewhere in between that self awareness piece is what I'm really interested in. And that's what I try to bring into my column into any of the content I make is like helping people have helping people practice that self aware muscle so that they can make better informed decisions about their relationships in themselves. When I think

  KC 26:13

  you know, you mentioned, you know, what does this bring out in me? And I think, like the idea of on moralizing, a lot of these thoughts and decisions, because when people write you letters, I noticed that they're often like, they want you to be like the judge about like, who's wrong? Like, am I wrong? Are they wrong? Should I change? Or should they change? Am I reasonable? Are they reasonable? And I only think two things about that. Number one is like, it's not always that black and white. Like, sometimes there's a little truth and everything and everybody's experiences about but like, even if there was one particular right person that doesn't, there's not like a friendship court of law, that that's then going to, like, carry out that sentence like it doesn't that's not gonna, like make a person change, you know, you still have to figure out what to do. Right?

  Hello Hayes 26:52

  Well, you have to decide what you're gonna Yeah, like, even after this thing has happened, where maybe someone was right, maybe someone was wrong, your life is going to continue, things are going to continue. And you have to every experience we have every interaction we have, like we have to decide what we're going to take from it. And I think that I tried to approach my life through like, What can this moment teach me? How can this moment teach me to take better care of myself and protect myself more? And how can this moment teach me how to be a kinder, more generous, compassionate human? How can this moment helped me not take things so personally, because taking things personally has never really served me. And like, there are

  KC 27:29

  other valid things to guide your decision making versus who is right and wrong, because like you said, like, what does this bring out in me is valid. Like, as somebody who had like a past in addiction, like there's only so far that I can really deal with certain issues and very personal, intimate relationships. But there are other issues that like, Man, I could go to the ends of the earth with you on that issue. Like I could hang in forever, no matter how deep no matter how messy but like I'm just equipped differently to be able to handle certain things or certain things like knife, a friend recently that before her father died, like she was really walking through, he was dying, he was an alcoholic, he was kind of verbally abusive to her. And she was having to figure out like, man, do I keep visiting him? Do I not like, what does that mean about me if I do, or if I don't. And one of the like, parts of her decision making that I think people don't give enough of that like validation to is like, what support system she had? Like, is she leaving these moments with her dad so destroyed that she can't function? And she can't show up for her kid? And she can't like get out of bed? Or is she leaving? And yes, it is painful to the bone and it is unfair, and he is wrong. But like she has like the internal skills and the friendships and the support to like, grieve that out in a way where she can remain functional. And like that doesn't have anything to do with whether he does or doesn't deserve a visit? Like that's just a practical like, who are you? What can you handle? What kinds of support do you have? Because like, there really are, yeah, what can I tolerate? And not just like, from the goodness of your heart? Like not just as a person?

  Hello Hayes 29:08

  No, right? That's such an important line of questioning.

  KC 29:13

  Let me ask you this. Do you ever get advice questions about friendships where you think to yourself the answers like you should run away from this person? And do you ever say that because I know when it comes to advice, like you try really hard not to like tell people unnecessarily, you know, you try to not know. Yeah, cuz you don't know everything.

  Hello Hayes 29:32

  Yeah, right. My formula, like there's not a formula, but generally, like, people will tell me their situation, and they think they have option A and B and I try to show an option. See, I think, yes, sometimes people write me a letter, and I'm like, Damn, that sounds terrible. However, those letters often lack self awareness. And when someone writes me a letter where there's no self awareness, I question what the other side is when there is self awareness in The letter though, and they're describing someone else's behavior. Sometimes it's clear to me that that this friendship, you know, isn't it these girls you're talking about don't like you very much. They don't, they don't want to be your friend. And you keep trying and trying and trying. And I think I have answered some questions like that, where I'll say, you know, if XY and Z has happened, it sounds to me like, they don't see you in the way you see them. And there will be other people who see you the way that you are, which is worthy of love and connection. So I'm more drawn to letters like that. Sometimes I get things where it's just someone, you know, listed out all the ways that their friend is terrible, but

  KC 30:34

  that makes you also think like, what's the conundrum here? Then you just gave me a list of all the things you hate about this person? I don't know what you what are you looking for me for?

  Hello Hayes 30:41

  Right, you have your answer. The former, like the ones where, you know, I'll get letters from young women in college who are describing people who just don't seem to want to be their friend, it makes me sad when I receive those letters, when sometimes people a part of like life is being able to notice like, this person just doesn't isn't giving me respect. They don't want to be with me. So I'm going to stop trying to force my way into this friendship. And I've made that I mean, I struggled with that in college, like wanting one person in our friend group to like, love me and be obsessed with me and like be the one that she picked. And it's really painful. And I wish that I could you know, go back in time and tell younger Hey, is like that person not worth you're pining over. And I think that those letters always like breaks something in me a little bit, because I remember what it was like to want a friend to love you. And I looking back on my life. I think those were more painful heartbreaks than like, any heartbreak I had with a boy.

  KC 31:38

  Yeah. And I feel like there's this interesting piece of like, when you get one or two solid loving relationships in your life, it becomes easier to like, for lack of a better term, like raise your standards or to say like, oh, I don't, this person is not acting like they're, like, psyched for me to be here. Or like, Oh, they're not, I'm just gonna move on. But like, I think we've all had a place in our lives where we had no pre existing, stable loving relationships, and we feel desperate for like any scrap of affection we can get because it feels like it's this or it's nothing,

  Hello Hayes 32:11

  right? I know. puts me right back there, man. And it's so, so lonely. But

  KC 32:18

  the hard thing is, it's like if you hold on to the scraps, sometimes you don't have room for the real stable loving friendships that could be making and like thank God for there's like those transitional phases like you struggle in high school often, then after that, it's easier to find your people or like you struggle as a new mom, because everything is so limited. And I remember my friends being like, just wait till they get to school, just wait till they get to school, like your world will open back up like there will be new, you know, people and that I think when it comes to friendships, that has been the hardest thing in my personal life is like at school, I made friends easily. And then you go to college, and then I, you know, had a job. And then I was involved in like recovery groups, it was like there was always this like, literal sort of Town Square community place where I could just show up and do things alongside other people and meet people and have those relationships, like organically happen. And when I became a mom, and then I started staying at home all the sudden it was like, there's no one around, and I got really lonely. And I kept thinking like, I need to make friends. I need to make friends. But nobody prepares you for how like making friends as an adult, where you don't have a lot of natural crossover with other adults feels like dating. Yeah, like you have to, like ask someone for their number, and you have to call them and you have to think about are they going to want to hang out with me? Are they just being nice? And are they gonna want to do that? And then you go and you don't know what to talk about. And then you feel all this pressure around it. And if you realize, oh, I don't think we're gonna be good friends. It's like, but what do I do? Are they gonna dislike me? And it's like, there was nobody to point out like, how am I supposed to make friends now? Anyways, I don't know why I even told that story. But I was just thinking about how like it

  Hello Hayes 34:01

  like, it doesn't really end. It just changes, it shifts, it shifts and all we can hope is that we continue with as life goes on, we continue to like the infrastructure of our confidence will continue to build up so that we are prepared to put ourselves out there. And we have the confidence to know that we can deal with whatever uncomfortable situations may happen because they will continue to happen. Like relationships are tricky. And even if you feel resolved in friendships, there will be other types of relationships maybe with work like you're gonna have to I'm experiencing this now as I like enter this new world of the entertainment business and I'm having conversations with people and I'm talking to all sorts of people where I am back in my younger self wanting people to pick me and it's the feelings that I have in these relationships are very similar to like making friends and wanting that connection with someone. So that's the moral of the story. It never goes away

  KC 34:56

  all right. I have one more question for you. Which is I feel like it Here's one of the things that I've liked about the times I've heard you give advice to people is that sometimes I feel like the topic of like boundaries will go trending on social media, and I'm gonna throw my own people under the bus. But like therapists will make videos about, like, how to be honest with the people in your life, like when something's bothering you, but we will make these like stilted, weird monologues where it's like, I'll never forget the one where this lady was talking about how to, like, end a friendship. And she was like, you know, I think our season of friendship has come to an end. And I just feel as though you know, what we need synergetic Lee like, is coming from different places, and it wasn't, you know what I mean? Or were there like, you

  Hello Hayes 35:42

  know, thrown in this energetically? Oh, god. Yeah. And

  KC 35:45

  it's just like, very, it's very HR is what I always thought it was like, hey, I need to give you some feedback about the way you came to the party. And it's like, oh, my gosh, and even I feel like I've been guilty of it. And I feel like you do a good job of like, okay, it doesn't have to be feeling as though like a therapist has set you down for an HR meeting. But it also doesn't have to be okay. Say nothing to your friend. Like, because they've like, how do you do that and not be a weirdo? I guess is my question like, because I see you give a lot of advice about that. Well, I

  Hello Hayes 36:19

  feel like, uh, about what to say, Yeah, I think it's funny you bring that this is like a big question that I have in my content creation in my work right now, like the full length advice column. And then these like shorter videos about what to say, because a piece of feedback I will get sometimes is like, Why do you have to tell your friends? Why do people need to be told how to talk to their friends, and I hear that criticism, or I hear that thought, and a lot of people really struggle with what to say. And I think about like my friendships, sometimes when I have to have a tough conversation with someone, I will text my friends. And I'll be like, can you help me write this email? How does this sound? Can I practice saying this with you? And that's like, a real valuable thing to have in a friend. So I do want to provide that to people online. And I want to be careful not to sound like HR. And it's hard. I mean, I'll go through this. I think my answer to this question is like that of a writer, you know, I'll sit and I'll practice I'll say, okay, Alexandria, like, how would you actually practice just like, how would you actually say this in your most casual way, I might do it in my voice recorder, my voice notes, or I'll just like, write it down. And then I'll read it again. And I'll say, Does this sound too formal? What are some small language tweaks, like I approach it as a writer, and then I'll practice saying it out loud, I workshop it, I'll say it to my husband. And sometimes he's like, that sounds too formal or like that sounds too, that could be interpreted as passive aggressive. And it's hard. It is writing something like when you're telling someone how to have a conversation, you're writing them dialogue, in the same way that you would like write dialogue in a book or a movie, you want it to sound real. Sometimes when someone criticizes what I am suggesting, you say, what they're criticizing is my writing. Or

  KC 37:47

  like, I've had people criticize me about it. And I'm like, they're just criticizing my acting like the words would be fine. But like, I don't know how to act it in a way that I'm not just like saying it at the camera, but like, you could say this in your own way. That wouldn't seem this weird.

  Hello Hayes 38:01

  Exactly, exactly. Like there's still a piece of it. That's like content, you know, like, some of it is still just content and like my own skill, writing dialogue that is both real and effective. And sounds real, you know? Well, on

  KC 38:14

  the actual, like, friendship skill, there isn't so much like finding the right words, as much as it is like how like learning how to tolerate how uncomfortable it is to like, kind of do like the record scratch in the middle of a friendship and be like, hey, like, can we talk about that for a second? And I find that like, sometimes that anxiety over getting the right words is thinking that if you got the right words, it wouldn't feel like you wanted to crawl into your skin. And I'm like, I mean, sometimes you just still do. Yeah,

  Hello Hayes 38:44

  no, of 100% 100% even learning how to say in the moment, like, I'm having a reaction to what you just said, can we talk about this, like, that's a really helpful one to have in your pocket when someone says something like, I'm having a reaction to that. I'm not sure why. But I'm having a reaction to that. When I've said that to people that I care about, like, it's always it's been uncomfortable, but it's resulted in me feeling seen be understanding more what they intended to say, like, we always can get on the same page.

  KC 39:10

  You know, the other one that has always been helpful to me is I'm telling myself, like, if I feel like somebody has kind of like said something to me, and I was and I'm thinking like, do they mean that to be like, mean, or are they trying to say they don't want me here? Like, you know what I mean, like, depending on how close the friend is, like, I feel like if you say like, Hey, I'm really upset because you actually like, he didn't want me to be here. But sometimes if I can say like, Hey, can we like you said this, but what I'm telling myself is that like, you think maybe I've stayed too long or like and that way like creates a little bit of space where I'm not like I'm not accusing my friend. And I'm not like creating like this big thing, but I'm giving that space of like, Hey, I'm willing to like hold this as a I'm not sure that I read it right or like this kind of hurt my feelings. And I'm not saying that you did something wrong, but like there's been like a little bit of a rupture. Like can we revisit it for a second? totally

  Hello Hayes 40:00

  a huge part of all of this is that the way we would have that conversation with someone we trust, and we feel as a good friend is different than the way we'd have a conversation with someone who is objectively like not a good person in our life. You know, like, there are different rules with people not right, there are different rules for how you communicate with safe people and Unsafe people. And I think that sometimes people will like see a video when they're like, well, that's people pleasing. And it's like, well, actually, this is just being considerate of a person that I trust, and I love, I would maybe be more direct with someone who isn't a safe person.

  KC 40:33

  I made a new friend one time. And at the very, very early stages, something happened where I was like, Oh, this is not the friend for me. And I remember calling like a couple of my friends that were therapists also being like, hey, like, what do I do? And I was like, thinking, because I have so much therapy background, I mean, like, being in therapy, where everything was very, like, you just got to be honest, you know, honestly, like at this pedestal, isation of like, being honest and direct. And I was like, How do I tell her that like, I just don't think and literally to a man, every single one of them was like, oh, no, honey, you just fade away. She's and I'm not there. Like, I'm not saying to do that, because you're like to like, you know, cowardly to tell her but like, it's the kind thing to do just like fade away, just like be busy. And you know, and I did that. And basically what, you know, I had two or three friends that were like no less than the kind thing to do is like to do the quiet fade. And most people will read that. And if she doesn't, then you'll have to be honest with her. Like, you can't just like string someone along forever and ever and ever. But like, give it two three weeks of quiet fade to three times of like, Oh, I'm busy. Nope, can't nope, whatever. And then I got the Hey, is something going on because you keep not wanting to hang out, man. I was like shit, okay, I gotta I gotta be honest. And I was but I was not prepared for that to be like the healthy advice, the slow fade. I was like, Wait, not everything has to be a big meeting. Not

  Hello Hayes 41:50

  everything has to be a big meeting. Not everything has to be I've been. I've like joked about having a whole series called say nothing. Because a lot of the time like when I read things, my answer is saying nothing, do nothing. And sometimes saying and doing nothing is actually the best thing for everybody involved and good on

  KC 42:05

  her for being like, I'm not reading, I know people are listening, but are like, wait every time now that my friends are busy. I'm gonna wonder if they're trying to do the slow fade. And it's like, yeah, like, not everybody maybe speaks the same nonverbals or like, has the same understanding of like, what those kinds of social cues are, but I still think it's okay, because there's always room for someone to go, Hey, I don't know if I'm understanding. Right? And she did. She was like, Listen, I don't know that. I'm picking up what you're putting down here. Like, are you just busy? And you want me to get and I have done that with friends too. Like,

  Hello Hayes 42:33

  I'm telling myself like, yeah, like, I've

  KC 42:35

  done that with friends where I have called them and I can't get a hold of them. Like, we're kind of like, I have one right now that like she just went through a big thing. She's going through a divorce. And she's not like calling me back and like, I will check in with her and be like, Hey, I you know, I know you're really stressed right now. Do you want me to keep trying? Or do you want some space? And she was able to say like, don't keep trying, please like at some point I'll pick up because I'll be there. I just don't I'm too overwhelmed to answer back. And like, I do think that sometimes like the things that we feel like we need to make explicit or like the huge conversations, when in reality, sometimes the more important things to make explicit are just like those small moments. They really and they build, they're vulnerable, but they actually like build a lot of intimacy about like, Hey, I've called you three times and I don't I have that with a lot of acquaintances to where I've like asked them if they want to be on the podcast, or if they wanted to, like project together and they don't answer and then I'm like, okay, are they not answering because they're not interested? And that's just like, the polite way to not answer or are they really busy and they really want to end like, I've found that it's okay to just ask again, and then be very explicit about like, Hey, I'm offering this again, because I'm not sure if you are just busy or if it's not a good fit, if it's not a good fit totally fine, just let me know I'll leave you alone. And so it's just been interesting as I've grown where the actual like vulnerability and work of like kind of being feeling and you're on the same page with friends is not those big HR conversations. It's like those little moments. I

  Hello Hayes 43:55

  love that so much. That's so powerful. Do you want me to keep calling or do you need some space right now? I'm good with both Oh, so powerful anyways,

  KC 44:03

  well listen, I don't want to take too much more of your time because we're at the top of the hour but I really appreciate you coming on here and talking about your six besties theory tell me where people can find you if they want to follow you if they want to hear your advice column where online can they get you so

  Hello Hayes 44:17

  my podcasts on wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube is called Hello haze. I mean, if you search Hello haze on Tik Tok podcast YouTube, you'll find it and my Instagram is a F haze a as an Alexandra Fez and Francis Hayes, because Hello has was taken on Instagram and my if you want to submit my submission email is Hello Hayes. advice@gmail.com and Casey, this was such a treat. I needed this little connection today. And I'm going to make you be my friend now if you want. Okay.

  KC 44:43

  Yeah. That is often how I make you have one conversation at the end. You're like, I'd like to submit an application. Yeah,

  Hello Hayes 44:50

  exactly. Exactly. You're such a wonderful host. And it was just great to be in conversation with you today. So thank you for having me. Thank you. Do

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai