10:You Can't Save the Rainforest if You're Depressed with Imani Barbarin
I’m excited to introduce you to today’s guest. Imani Barbarin is a disability rights and inclusion activist and speaker who uses her platform for conversations around the disability community. I’ve followed her for a while on TikTok and appreciate the way she expresses her opinions and helps educate the rest of us. Come join us now!
Show Highlights:
How Imani explored and discovered her passion for advocacy for disability and inclusion rights
How climate change and disability are linked
Why environmental ableism is a real thing
How people have become victims of their non-nuanced thinking, only wanting to be on the “right” side
Why the COVID pandemic has become a “mass-disabling” event, especially regarding mental health
Examples of ways in which the environmental movement has left those with disabilities behind
Why society has a general disdain for disabled people and believes that they don’t (or won’t) contribute to society
How the luxury of abled people trumps the necessity of the disabled
What the function of capitalism is on disabled bodies
How disabled people are used as pawns in the pro-choice/pro-life debate
Why there is inherent racism in the pro-life movement
What laziness is and is not
Resources:
Connect with Imani: Website and Instagram
Resources mentioned: https://www.sinsinvalid.org, https://disasterstrategies.org, https://www.americanprogress.org
Connect with KC: TikTok and Instagram
Get KC's Book, How to Keep House While Drowning
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Imani Barbarin 0:00
Okay
KC Davis 0:04
Hello you sentient balls of stardust. I am KC Davis and this is Struggle Care, the mental health podcast that wants you to stop feeling guilty about buying paper plates when your life is hard. I'm really excited about today's guest. Her name is Imani Barbarin. She's a disability rights and inclusion activist, a speaker and she uses her platform to talk about conversations around the disability community. So as usual, grab a chair, do something kind for yourself and have a listen.
Hello, and I'm so glad you're here. My next guest is someone I've really been looking forward to talking to her name is Imani Barbara, and she's a disability rights and inclusion activist. She's a speaker, and she uses her platform to talk about conversations around the disability community. So Imani, first of all, thank you so much for making the time to be here. Of course, thank you for having me. I have been following you. I almost said stalking you but that I thought maybe that was on creepy on Tik Tok.
Imani Barbarin 1:01
And I really liked your content. And I learned a lot from you. And I really appreciate the way that you express your opinions on things from like several different identities that I learned from. I'm like Saltine, cracker white person. And I feel like I've learned a lot about you from about race. I feel like I've learned a lot about you in the disability realm. And so I'm really grateful to sort of bring your expertise to the next little time we have together. Well, thank you, I'm really excited to be on this podcast with you. So how did you come to a spot where you found yourself advocating for disability after college? Well, during college, I was kind of exploring my disability identity more. And I was just kind of like hit over the head with all of these concepts about disability that had literally changed my entire life up until that point, but I had no words to put to it. And so like kind of discovering that language, like I was hungry for it. And I wanted to understand more about myself and my community is also my identity at the crux of being both black and disabled at the time, well, always wet.
KC Davis 2:14
And so like my professors were really excited to like, be like, go go wild with it. Like we don't care like, as long as you just turn in your assignments on time, you can explore whatever part of your disability you're writing. And so I was so grateful for that. Or that after college, I kind of worked as an assistant for a little while, but it wasn't really my thing. And I just I started my blog because I really just wanted to write about disability, and just talk about it with somebody, anybody, and just talk about my experiences being black and disabled, and kind of feeling like very isolated growing up. And then from there, I just started promoting it on social media. And here we are. So one of the things that happened to me when I got on Tik Tok, and I sort of accidentally found this platform where I talk about mental health was that I started talking specifically about the idea of adaptive routines for people with mental health disorders. So you know, the benefit of running your dishwasher every day. So that there's a routine for someone that maybe has ADHD, we talked about the idea of getting paper plates for someone who's too depressed and doesn't have any dishes to eat off of. And really quickly, I started to get a lot of hate comments from people who were saying, you cannot recommend this. It's so bad for the environment. And I understand the initial pushback, right. And so I would sort of say, well, here's the thing, though, we're talking about harm reduction. We're talking about adaptive routines for people with mental health disorders. And but what surprised me, and it's sad to me that it surprised me because what it tells me is that this is the attitude in general, and I just woke up to it in the last year was people would come back and say things like, you being sad is not an excuse to kill the earth with paper plates. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's really wrapped up in like the white supremacy. And I feel like it's one of the very few things where people are actually passionate about. And so they see climate change as a threat to the life which is like all of our lives. And so they're virulent in their hatred of disabled people, when we say things like, that's just not feasible for us, like we have, we're creating these routines. So it's accessible to us, but it's alarming to say the least. And what I was doing some reading around that time, and one of the things that sort of jumped out to me and it wasn't specifically about mental health disability, but it's just about disability in general, when it came to climate change. The demographic that is one of the most impacted by the harms of climate change is the disability community. And they were talking specifically about some things that happened like in Hurricane Katrina, where the amount of people that died, who were disabled cuz they could not get out people could not service them, they did not have access to the things that they need. It was way overblown in terms of like disability rate in the population like it should it was an unconscionable amount of people with disabilities.
Imani Barbarin 5:14
Yeah, I mean, it's always the risk. And so it's always really upsetting when people say the disabled people just don't care about the environment, because we're telling you what we need, but it flies in the face of your performative activism or their performative activism. And then when you look at the actual numbers about it, disabled people are the most affected by climate change. We cannot. I mean, if you ever see videos on Tiktok, there's several videos of kids in wheelchairs or kids on crutches and the fire alarm at school goes off, and nobody thinks to grab this kid. Right? If you nobody thinks to grab them. That is literally how we deal with climate change. We leave disabled people behind. And so like this pervasive ableism, behind this environmentalist movement, is really flying in the face of this goal of preserving the earth for all of us. Yeah, and I think it's no mistake, either that the two highest groups for disability in the country are indigenous people, for the land back, and black people, like two demographics of people who this country has been trying to eradicate, for centuries have the highest rates of disability. People who consider themselves environmentalist, have no problem doing away with these demographics and people. And I mean, if I had to guess it would seem obvious that the role of white supremacy is a huge role in why these populations are seeing higher rates of disability. Oh, yeah, I mean, environmental ableism is real, if you don't have access to clean drinking water, that means disability, if you don't have access to doctors that believe you, that's disability, if you've structural racism, from institutions, that's disability, so it ableism and racism are interwoven so deeply, that it's alarming to me that people will be so overtly ableist and then claim themselves to be anti racist. You can't be one without the other.
KC Davis 7:07
Do you ever feel like sometimes as white people, like, we want so badly to be oppressed? And maybe we found that in environmentalism? Yeah, yeah.
Imani Barbarin 7:18
I think it's two things. I think that like, white people want to be oppressed. And so they found They latched on to environmentalism. But simultaneously, it's one of the few things that when you advocate for it, it doesn't have a voice of its own to disagree with you to say that you're not advocating for me correctly. It's more of a pet. Yes, the pro life movement of the left, like the perfect victim. So because as a white person, I get to be simultaneously the victim and the Savior. Yes, exactly. And who wouldn't want that. And I know that people sometimes bristle at the idea that white people want to be oppressed, but I'm someone who came from the evangelical church, I still very much a person of faith, but I'm sort of deconstructing my evangelicalism. And I've never been offended by that only because like, when you go to church, and the pastor tells you, like, you're on the right side, you're for God, but they don't know. And they want to stop you. And you know, we're gonna persevere. And we're this and it's like, that feels good. Yeah, it does. I mean, I grew up in the church. So I'm very familiar with all of the same rhetoric that you are. And one of the things about white supremacy is that it lacks nuance. And so whenever you think of yourself as the Savior, or is the one helping on the righteous side, everybody else is on the wrong side, right? It's not through, there's nuance to literally everything. And so when white people position themselves as environmentalists, and people were fighting back and be like, Listen, this is not as inclusive as you think it is, then everybody else is wrong. It's the exact same positioning, regardless of the argument. It's the trump card, it's the ace of spades, as long as I'm on the right side. And you know, it's interesting, I see sort of queues of that show up a lot in some of my content, where somebody comes in at the most recent one was we were talking about like the breast is best campaign. And people come in and they really think as long as I'm on what I believe to be the quote, unquote, right side of this information. It doesn't matter who I'm harming. Like, I'm absolved of who I harm who I step over, as long as at the end of the day in this sort of black and white non nuanced thinking. I'm on the right side of the issue. Yeah, exactly. And I think that I've seen some of this most like disgusting ableism and racism towards the indigenous community here. It was demanding land back and rightfully so. Like every single indigenous practice, regardless of other involves meat or not, is more sustainable than what white people are proposing. You get people ignore them. Because it's more comfortable to believe that you're in the right simply because you're you're saying something when you're not like you know, these practices have been in place for 1000s of years, and simply just have the arrogance to say, to look at a community who's been living with so few resources for so long, based off of ancient practices and just be like, No, I don't like that i discount it. It doesn't apply to me. Like, that's arrogance. That's white supremacy. And it will kill us, who will literally kill us if we do not listen to communities who have been doing this for centuries.
KC Davis 10:26
So one of the things that I heard you say one time and a tick tock, you said that COVID is not just a mass mortality event. COVID is a mass disabling event. And I thought about that for days. And, you know, it's obviously a physically mass disabling event, we have people who are now long haulers with their physical health. But the other thing that I thought about was that it's also mass disabling psychologically, oh, 100%, like the amount of people that never dealt with mental health symptoms, or maybe were able to manage these mental health symptoms, are finding themselves struggling in a way that they weren't before, because of all the circumstances around COVID. And I thought that was such a thing we don't talk about. Yeah, I mean, I would even argue that people who never were diagnosed with COVID, have exacerbated mental health symptoms, because of this sheer isolation if you're taking it seriously. And so there's gonna be a ton of people that are, you know, coming out of this, you know, with agoraphobia, and anxiety and depression.
Imani Barbarin 11:26
And I think that people are at a breaking point, you know, in terms of the mental health, which is very scary, because we simultaneously do not have any infrastructure for mental health care in this country. Like, I think I read somewhere that, you know, our prison system is the largest mental health system in the country. Does that why why? Why is that a thing? And so yeah, there's gonna be tons of people who are dealing with mental health care for the very first time, who don't know how to reach out to a healthcare provider. And because hospitals or get again, at capacity, are not gonna be able to get to see a mental health care provider, or, you know, be admitted if they choose to, for mental health care. So, yeah, we really don't know the long lasting repercussions of COVID societally, interpersonally, we won't know those things until decades from now.
KC Davis 12:16
And one of the things that I found sort of fascinating was when people push back so hard on this idea of adaptive routines, you know, when I thought about this term, eco ableism, you know, what came to mind for me was sort of the plastic straw debate, which was sort of my most recent memory of the big environmental push that sort of left people with disabilities behind. And that was a big conversation. And and so I'm curious if you know, for someone who's listening, that maybe this is their first time thinking about these types of issues. Can you give us other examples of ways in which the environmental movement has left people with disabilities behind?
Imani Barbarin 12:57
Yeah, I mean, so first of all, the straw bans were my personal hell, but I never, I never want to talk about them again or dislike them. I don't ever want to talk about them again. But no, I mean, I do all the time, because people just never let it die. So even you know, environmental preparation routines that people tweet out, or ableist, because they simply do not take into account like one of the recommendations for people to prepare for an emergency environmental disaster, is to collect one month's worth of medications, In what world, people are struggling to pay for insulin from month to month, and you're asking somebody to just save some insulin for literally a rainy day. That's not possible. You know, there needs to be infrastructure with that. And people always like, well, you could just siphon off a little bit here and there, like that's the whole medication works. There's also the idea that single use plastics, like you said, are unnecessary to disabled people, disabled people, we'd pay 28% More of our income than non disabled people just to have the same quality of life. Because of inaccessibility, and little things like having to do the dishes, having to take the trash out and having a cleaner to help us. I'm having an assistant to help us. And people are like, well, you're contributing to plastics, why can't you just wash the dishes like everybody else? Because we can't do everything like everybody else you can try to tell I go and people get really belligerent when you bring up that fact. And I always kind of throw it back in people's face, you know, all the k&n 85 all of these, you know, medical masks that we're not wearing for COVID-19 that doctors are wearing, keep you safe are made of a plastic. There's far less pushback when it comes to keeping non disabled people live than it is to keep disabled people live because we they do not believe we deserve to live in their heart of hearts. And that was one of the things is so dangerous about ableism is that we are taught from a very young age to praise eugenics in our society. And the minute the minute you ask somebody how their beliefs impact the disability community. If they're progressive, they almost always flip on our dime, and start acting like, we don't deserve to live like literally on a dime. I've talked to people who are pro choice. And then as soon as I bring up the fact that Disabled Parents want to keep it have they're having keep their children to be like, Oh, well, they should be sterilized, like literally on a dime. And that instinct is going to harm our entire society. Because when we think about, like I said before, the racial breakdown to disability, you cannot be anti racist without being anti ablest. And so the same thing applies to environmentalism, if you're telling a certain group of people that the way that they survive, everyday life doesn't matter, and that they should do what you tell them to do. Without any sort of alternatives that are actually feasible to that community. You're literally saying to them, I don't care if you live or die, because a lot of the things that people think is frivolous for the disability community is quite literally life and death for us. And so that instinct is going to do more harm than it could ever do any good.
KC Davis 16:08
You know, what it reminds me of is, every time somebody dies of COVID, the first thing that gets asked is will Did they have any underlying health conditions?
Imani Barbarin 16:17
Oh, yeah. Yeah. 100%. And people will say that automatically, I'm like, does my life matter any less? Because they did, or, and people really do tell on themselves? When they ask that question. And I get why they're asking, I think there's this fear of, I want to believe this can't happen to me, I want to other myself, like, if I'm not somebody that has some type of disability, then maybe I don't have to deal with the existential anxiety around the fact that I too, can die. Yeah, and that's that cockiness. Again, because we're in America, like, the sad matter of fact, is that not a lot of us have access to regular health care. So the idea that somebody can walk around thinking they're healthy is just false. If you haven't been to the doctor in a year, you have no idea what's going on what underlying conditions you have, even if you are seeing your doctor regularly, you may or may not know what's actually going on with your body. So the idea that it's only immunocompromised people dying is only immunocompromised people that we know of.
KC Davis 17:17
Well, and when you talk about COVID, being a mass disabling event, even for people that don't get COVID, think about the amount of women that didn't get their mammograms and 2020. Because, you know, the risk benefit at the time was, you know, let's not go out, let's not go to the doctor, let's push anything that's not urgent. And like some of those women have cancer that was not caught.
Imani Barbarin 17:37
Exactly. You know, even people who because there's certain medications, you have to be blood tested for me never found those medications, you know, the people who have lupus, and who went hydrochloric, when was trending or whatever, could not get their medication, their illnesses, were exacerbated as well. People who cannot get chemo treatments because hospitals aren't capacity. People who cannot even like minor things can turn into disabilities, if they're not treated. And with hospitals, that capacity, that's more likely to happen. So you can never say from one day to the next that you're not disabled, that's just not possible.
KC Davis 18:14
I'm still really like stuck on your comment about how, you know, when we talk about what the general public or what a healthy person needs to stay healthy. no one bats an eye, even if that's a bunch of plastic. Everyone needs a mask. Now everyone needs gloves now. Okay, let's do it. Because, you know, we have to, obviously, if you tell them that same person, that somebody with a disability needs something with a disposable plastic to live, you're totally right, we do have this attitude of, well, you're just making it up or you're just being indulgent. Or you can find another way. And I think I'm truly simultaneously blown away at that connection. And like, sad at the knowledge that obviously, that's true. And I feel like I wake up to pieces of this more and more.
Imani Barbarin 19:02
Yeah, it's one of the most upsetting things to learn about society. Is it like, you know, I remember somebody said to my video and said, like, I did not believe you when you said that most people hate disabled people. And I was like, yeah, that's not something I lightly say, I may be jokingly making a joke or be sarcastic about it, but it's very cool. This disdain this society has that, you know, the thing that society hates most about disabled people is that we've survived it despite his best efforts to kill us. And that's the truth. And so whenever people question what we do to stay alive, they're really questioning, why are you alive? Like, why? If your life is gonna mean mine, then why would somebody less than me want to stay alive?
KC Davis 19:46
I mean, and not to mention, you know, we haven't even touched on how much capitalism has to do with this. Because if I'm taught from a young age that I'm only worth what I'm able to produce when I'm able to work. I mean, Obviously, then that belief is going to color the way that I see someone who in my view, can't produce or can't contribute in the way that I can or even at all.
Imani Barbarin 20:11
Yeah, not only can't but there's this perception that, you know, disabled people really aren't as disabled as we say we are and that we won't contribute as much as we should, which is a very important distinction, because then we, you know, we restrict social safety nets, based on this perception that people won't contribute if they get the necessary resources, or they won't participate in work, or life if they have access to health care, which is why our healthcare is actually tied to our employment because of racism. Because a lot of jobs, a lot of these jobs that came with health insurance, were mostly filled by white people. And that's why our healthcare is tied to our employment epoch. Yeah, capitalism is really like a mind bender. When you think about the ways in which disability plays a role. And a lot of people disabled themselves with this idea to do they need to hustle and prove that they're better than everybody else, or prove that they're not as lazy as those other people who were just leeches on the system or whatever. So all around is very damaging.
KC Davis 21:12
One of the things that I heard you say in a TikTok was you were talking about because sometimes people will say, well, obviously, if someone needs that plastic, they can have it, but the rest everybody else should be. And I thought you had a really interesting point where you said, like, we can't play that game.
Imani Barbarin 21:28
Yeah, one of the things that, like it should be abundantly clear to everybody is that things do not become available to disabled people, unless non disabled people want them, you know, work from home, telemedicine, all these things only became available, because it became necessary for non disabled people. Now transfer that over to the plastic and you know, recycling debate. If we don't have plastic straws, if you don't have plastic cutlery or paper plates, there's no way disabled people are getting them, because not only will they not be available, but also many places, they'll just be scarce, which means the price will go up, which means a lot of disabled people won't be able to afford them. And contrary to popular belief, not a lot of us have, you know, access to assistance, or AIDS or people that will help us like this not a thing that happens. So they're literally like, piece by piece, piece of plastic where piece of plastic killing off disabled to do with a lot of their ideas.
KC Davis 22:21
When you talk about sort of exploring your identity as a disabled person, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on what I'm about to say next. Because whenever I talk on my channel about adaptive routines, and I talk about things like if what's gonna get you to eat today is a prepackaged salad. Like you need to buy the prepackaged salad. And when I get pushback from people about, you know, disposable toothbrushes, and they'll say, Well, you know, you can't promote this to people, because, you know, we're all going to kill the world, our disposable toothbrushes, but one of the things that I find is that a lot of people and this might be true of other disabilities, too, but in particular, a lot of people that I see with mental health disabilities, they don't quite know, whether they are disabled enough to deserve what they see as well. You can have it if you quote unquote, really need it.
Imani Barbarin 23:14
Yeah, that's something I see a lot in my advocacy is that at least people, you know, who are coming into their disability identity will tell me, Oh, I didn't know that. Like, I could do that. And we're also it's not funny, but it's also kind of very just sad in a way because whenever we hear functioning labels as disabled people, particularly in like the Disability Justice Movement, we cringe, because this is the purpose of this functioning labels, like high functioning, low functioning, is this way of setting up a hierarchy of who needs help and who does not. And we reinforce it every single day with our language, and with our perceptions of what high functioning versus low functioning people need. And people think that just because they're on one end of a spectrum versus the other, that they don't need as many supports, or they'll pass judgment on somebody else for navigating the world in a different way, by saying, Oh, they're less than they just, they're worse off than me. When in reality, you just need what you need. Right? Like, you don't need to add qualifiers to you don't need to beg for acceptance from non disabled people. Because honest to god, I do not care what those people think, like, I have to survive them every single day, you think I'm gonna give them the peace of purchase in my brain as well. Like, they don't have a lot of land up there. They just don't like it. Okay? So you got like these functioning levels play like a very serious role in the way that we talk about disability. And people don't even understand like once they come into their disability identity, just how ingrained they are in us and how damaging they are. But I really hope that people kind of deconstruct that, because you're going to need what you're going to need you're not better or less than anybody else. Some people have more accessibility needs. Some people have less, some people need to move plastic straws. Some people need like sippy cups like it doesn't stop passing judgment on what you need to survive. You just do what you have to do to survive. That's the only thing people can ask you.
KC Davis 25:10
One of the things that was really hard for me postpartum both times with my kids was brushing my teeth. And I actually got postpartum depression and anxiety with my second who was born three weeks before the pandemic. And it was, the word that comes to mind now is suffering, like, it was so difficult, it was so hard. And I'm someone who, for the most part, like I had addiction, really, really early on, I had some sort of diagnoses floating around. But then like, for the most part of my adult life was pretty stable mentally, physically and otherwise. So to go through this pandemic, and all of a sudden feel like I'm not that stable anymore, despite being a therapist being mature, having all of this, you know, education and experience was interesting. And it was it got harder and harder. And I've tried lots of sort of, Oh, I'll put my toothbrush in the sink at the kitchen, I'll put it on my list of closing duties. And what I finally did a couple of weeks ago, because I started having tooth pain, and I was like, I'm going to have to go back to the dentist, I also have a complete phobia of dental work, I broke down and bought myself a box of 144 prepasted toothbrushes, and for the first time in 18 months, I've been brushing my teeth every day. And so I also have ADHD. So I think there's some executive functioning issues around it and you know, not having a nine to five job where you have the get up, go to the vanity, do your things. And I found myself even though I talk all the time about, you know, you need what you need, you know, using resources, it's not wasting resources, you need what you need, I have had so much guilt over it. I haven't even made a Tiktok about it. Because I've thought I just I can't justify it, I'll never be able to convince people that I'm not just this wasteful. And what I did in my mind to try and sort of resolve this, like cognitive dissonance was I started thinking about, Okay, what in my life, could I take out, I'll stop using paper towels. Oh, that's what I'll do. I'll stop using paper towels, and I'll stop getting Starbucks. And that way, it'll sort of even out so I'm not doing more. And that'll be my justification that I can tell people's Well, I cut these things out. So I'm not really my footprint isn't bigger. And what hit me all at once was Oh, my God, paper towels. And Starbucks cups are not morally superior to prepasted toothbrushes. And yet somebody somewhere who is able bodied able mind set the acceptable usage of plastic and said, You know, nobody is going to judge you for using paper towels. And there might be some people that will roll their eyes at your disposable Starbucks cup. But like you getting takeout once a week, nobody is going to come and give you a death threat for that.
Imani Barbarin 27:47
Yeah. And that's a wildest thing about ableism to me is that ableism is so pervasive that people I have never met in my life, people I will never meet people I don't even know don't even have a concept of cannot even imagine their faces have an effect on how I live my life. Because we have been recycling these exact same perceptions, about disability about wastefulness over and over and over again, people who do not like who people who I would not blink twice at our show, shaping the way in which I live my life, so I feel less guilty for them. I don't know.
KC Davis 28:27
It's just wild to me that somebody who is you know, I want this is the best ever. I one time had a woman shame me for saying that I ran my dishwasher even when it wasn't full, because that's what allows me to overcome the executive dysfunction of like being able to keep up with my dishes. And I went to her page, I'm not kidding you Imani, She was a travel blogger.
Imani Barbarin 28:51
You gotta be kidding me.
KC Davis 28:52
This woman had been on at least eight airplanes in two years. No, no, not see. That's the thing, like, because that's the thing like, their luxury trumps your necessity. Like I'm just trying to brush my teeth over here. I know that people have these ideas that maybe if I tried harder, I could do it in a more sustainable way and I get it because I have those own internal voices but I finally did almost take my own medicine and go Well KC, you know what, it's been 18 months. And it's been at least eight months if you trying with self compassion, but very much trying to find a routine in your life that will make this part of your health successful. And at the end of the day, they're probably going to use just as much disposable plastic to fix your fucking teeth at the dentist. If you don't start from gonna find a way to brush your teeth.
Imani Barbarin 29:43
Completely because I have trouble brushing my teeth too. When I get into depressive episodes, I have generalized anxiety disorder and then I also have what they like to affectionately call double depression. So like I struggle with the same things. And I also grind my teeth when I'm stressed out so like I remember like, just my teeth were so bad I bit into a chip, and it cracked my tooth, like in half. So my teeth are like, very sensitive, because of the sheer amount of anxiety that I've had my entire life. So I understand completely like the in the amount of like plastic bags that go into, you know, you're getting your free, you know, take home toothbrush after you for hours. And you're just like, well, I guess it is what it is now. Yeah, like, Why does her luxury, she's doing worse for the planet than you are doing just to survive your day. Like the audacity it takes to look at somebody else's life and be like, well, you're ruining the planet. I don't do any of those things. But I'm gonna go to Bali for like two weeks, and I'm going to not pay as much for food to underpaid, you know, the workers that are indigenous to that area. And, you know, right on a moped,
KC Davis 30:55
Yeah, the issue really isn't that there's an objective amount of waste you're allowed to produce, it's that you can't produce it as a disabled person. Right? That's wild.
Imani Barbarin 31:06
Listen, any space you take up when people do not expect you to live is too much space for other people, they do not care. They think that, you know, you living is a luxury, it is a privilege, and they could take it away from you at any second and pass judgments of your entire time here. And then with a real messed up part is when they use your life, to inspire themselves, but leave you in the dust.
KC Davis 31:34
So you get to be inspiration porn, that's like the role that capitalism has made acceptable. Like that's the only acceptable role.
Imani Barbarin 31:40
Yeah, I always say inspiration. exploitation is enable a society placing value on a disabled life where in which they do not find any otherwise. That's the function of capitalism on disabled bodies, if we take advantage of these stories, and we present them to disabled and non disabled people and say, they're both for the grace of God go on. You're that type of thinking, when in reality, we've left disabled people to die at every turn in this country, and gore inspiration, is you just surviving that.
KC Davis 32:13
And I mean, we haven't even touched on the reality that the individual carbon footprint is like laughably, since like, 20%, right? Not really going to turn things around for better or for worse, is really just not going to have an impact if we can't move things at a political level. And it must be scary that the people who are willing to move things at a political level still manage to leave people with disabilities behind.
Imani Barbarin 32:43
Oh, yeah, like the reason why I don't revisit the straw man argument very often, is because we got death threats, like, people were telling us, oh, you should kill yourself. Disabled people don't deserve to live anyways, we'll just let them die off over straws. Like it's the most absurd thing, like when you just say like, it's just over straws. But it was true. People were telling us that, you know, will compassionately euthanized, disabled people, I think comes to it. Like,
KC Davis 33:12
it's like the liberal version of when conservatives blow up abortion clinics, because they don't believe in murder, right. Like the kill doctors are like, rally, it was a massacre.
Imani Barbarin 33:21
Right? Like, and that's the scary thing. Like I said, people will shift their beliefs, the incident disability is introduced, and that instinct is gets a lot of people killed all the time,
you can walk so far to the left, that you just look back around and hang out with eugenics. Right? Like, if you were kidding, when we say like people believe in eugenics, like hardcore, they really do. They do not think that they're just as bad as some other people. Because like we said before, white supremacy lacks nuance. So if I'm in the right, everybody else is in the wrong.
KC Davis 33:54
That's super fascinating. And you know, with the conversation right now, with the Texas abortion ban, one of the things you know, when you and you were recently talking about the rate of sexual assault on the disabled community, and how you know, when we get sort of blindly without nuance into something without being able to consider disability, and you were talking about how sometimes sterilization was about preventing sexual assault. And one of the things that came to my mind was that it was so horrible, this politician, basically using the excuse that, you know, I think it was like up to 40% of people or babies with Down syndrome are aborted once that found out that they have Down syndrome. And he was trying to sort of conflate like, this is why this is a really righteous like, we can't let anybody get abortions, which was really kind of disgusting, but there is this side of abortion where you can get so blindly pro choice that you don't stop to have the nuanced conversation about the amount of ableism
Imani Barbarin 34:59
Um, that goes into that choice when it comes to, you know, being able to find out that your fetus in utero has a disability. Yeah, and the abortion debate is very tricky for a lot of disabled people. Because, you know, I had relatives telling my mom to abort me when my mom thought I would likely be disabled and but my mom and I are both pro choice regardless, like my mom still carried me to term, but she's very pro choice. But my mom always reiterated to me like growing up like I wanted you like, I still want you, I want you as my daughter. But I still reserve the right to have a choice and for you to have a choice. And people really lacked those conversations. And it's really irritating, just how often disabled people are used as pawns in this argument over pro choice or pro life, and nobody really asks us what we need. You know, not a lot of disabled people even get sexual education. Not a lot of disabled people even get sexual health care. When I was talking about the story about people who sterilized disabled people, it's not to prevent rape is to prevent children, they're not meant to prevent the rape, they're just trying to prevent the children. And like, that's the more devastating part is like, they're not even trying to address the root issue to a lot of these problems, they know that the abuse is gonna continue, they just don't want any children birth to disabled people.
KC Davis 36:15
And the politician that was talking about, you know, oh, well, you know, it's just so ableist to abort a Down syndrome, a fetus that has Down syndrome, and it always comes across to me like, it's this like, gotcha moment, like, we know that the lefties are into not being able to. So, what do you say now, gotcha. And it is not it is being a pawn.
Imani Barbarin 36:37
it is also a miscalculation of the left to because like, they will want to know, what are you talking about? Like, what of it? Exactly. But I think one of the things that is so irritating about that argument about people with Down syndrome being aborted is that like, if they had the social services in place, where disabled people to survive, once we take our first breath, rather than us just being in utero, less people would probably make that decision. Like, the nature of us being pawns in a lot of these arguments, is to just ignore us once we're alive regardless. So I don't like I hate that argument. Because I know how difficult of a decision it is for a lot of, you know, pregnant people to make, you know, that choice, whether to have an abortion, and to have an abortion, whether because it's a disabled child, or might just be a disabled child, it was a hard decision to make. And I think that people just erase the fact that if we did better by disabled people who were alive already, people would not feel as pressured to make that decision.
KC Davis 37:45
Yeah, it's kind of the breakdown of the whole pro life argument in general, which is, if you really wanted to reduce the amount of abortions, you would make it not suck so bad to be a parent who is unsupported or a child who can't, doesn't get the social safety net? Well, I mean, it also points to the racism of the pro life movement, which is that they don't expect these children who these unwanted children, these pregnancies that are carried to term out of the soul and, and strife to actually be members of slidy, a lot of these children are shuffled into the prison system, like that's the entire point. You know, a lot of white people want a white ethno state, and then to arrest and incarcerate children of color, then, like, that's the end point. And so like, even the argument that we're trying to make is, you know, irrespective of this idea that race plays a role, it very much so plays a role. And I think the right has projected outwards decades, what they hope this moment in history will do for white supremacy. And so yeah, you know, you started our conversation by talking about how, for lack of a better term, anti ableist. And what I think has been interesting is, as we've been talking, we're sort of naturally not even jumping, but like we're naturally having to talk a little bit about white supremacy and talk a little bit about the abortion debate, talk a little bit about indigenous rights talk a little bit about and it's, it really is so entwined, and I feel like well, I want to thank you, because I feel as though even having this conversation with you has been illustrative of that, that it's just been even impossible. It's like we can't sit down and go, Okay, we're just gonna talk about eco ableism for 45 minutes. No, like, by necessity, we had to sort of foray into all these other identity intersections and issues and so that I feel like that sort of makes your point so beautifully.
Imani Barbarin 39:49
It's one of those things where like, weather always makes fun of me because if anybody triggers a disability conversation to me, I will always bring up my statistics about how it affects racially I mean, and that's also the reason why we're seeing a lot of these Republican bills that look like how to Menus of how to exclude disabled people, because a lot of the areas that they're excluding, and cutting and restricting voting access, fall along the lines of things that have aided disabled people in particular disabled people of color in voting in past elections. So yeah, it all connects. And I think that disability is kind of like the crux of a lot of different movements that I don't think people really realize can be used against them. Because like I said, that instinct is very frightening. And it will turn on a dime, to say, Oh, those people don't matter. But then we actually look at the numbers, you actually be like, Oh, crap, that would actually eradicate an entire group of people.
KC Davis 40:45
And I feel like ability, in particular, physical or mental ability is always like the unrecognized privilege. Like anytime I've brought up issues of privilege on any of my content channels, you know, there's always like, the disaffected, lower income white person that's like, I really didn't have privilege, because they kind of do their list. Or I, sometimes I get it from women where they'll say, you know, if I can keep my house clean, you should be able to keep your house clean. And at the end of the day, they're like, Well, I didn't have any privileges, I can't afford a maid, you know, I didn't have these things. And you're like, the fact that you can stand for 10 minutes is a privilege.
Imani Barbarin 41:26
Yeah, I call them. I like to make fun of non disabled people a lot just to keep them on their toes. And I call them like, celebrating their default setting, like, really good defaults, like, I get it, you could do all these things. But like, I don't care, I'm still gonna have to do what I have to do. Because the truth of the matter is, is because of a lot of the Savior behavior, they believe that there's always going to be somebody to help. That's just not true, there's always going to be somebody that will rise above and you know, really make a difference. And the social media has really impacted or kind of warped our perception of how we as a society help one another because we're doing a lot of the stuff on camera, we're filming people at their worst moments needing help, for likes. And people seem to think that that's the norm. It's not like that's not normal. But it's not normal, that people are going to just rush up to me and help me, most of the time, people are just grabbing at me for fun. So it's not like people are going to actually be grabbing at me to help me nine times out of 10. And if they do, sometimes they actually wind up hurting me. So this idea that, like people have resources that we need, and we're just taking advantage of the system is kind of this pervasive idea that kind of started with Reagan. And you know, the welfare queen stereotype which is extended to black women, particularly who were disabled, that were leeches on the system, and that anybody who's taking advantage of a social safety net, doesn't actually need it. rigging, it can be traced to a lot of ableism of the country, in the United States, particularly the way he weaponized racial stereotypes along the axis of disability.
KC Davis 43:04
I feel like so if you're someone who's listening to this podcast, and you know, you're resonating with maybe some of the things we've talked about, about, you know, you need what you need. And you're still kind of hearing that inner voice that says, Oh, not me, no, I think maybe I'm just lazy. I just want to take a minute to say that as a therapist, I've seen so many clients, I've seen so many clients with mental health issues with addiction, seeing clients with physical disabilities, and I have to say, I've never met someone who's truly lazy.
Imani Barbarin 43:33
There's no such thing. Like, there's really no such thing is lazy. There are people that can, and there are people that just are not able to. And we have this perception that they won't again, they're just going back to this idea that people just won't do the right thing. Whereas there's not enough services and supports for people to be able to survive. And so they're just struggling all the time.
KC Davis 43:54
Yeah. And I always say like, don't get me wrong. I mean, entitlement exists, exploitation exists. There are definitely people out there that feel like they have more right to labor to leisure and rest than somebody else does. And so it really should be these people were breaking their backs and working so that I can rest. But that's not laziness. That's entitlement. Yeah. Right. Like the person listening to this podcast, who's like, Oh, God, I think I would probably finally get my teeth brushed. If I had prepasted toothbrush. It's like, you're not lazy. That's not it. Like the things that you're thinking, you would help you survive the day with meet your basic needs. That's not laziness,
Imani Barbarin 44:34
Right? And it's just you creating accessibility where you can. Like, that's the goal. That's what you need to have happen. So like, stop passing judgment on yourself. I mean, honestly, like my mom, my dad, always I have ADHD to so my brain.
Like, I'm gonna diagnose you, but I'm 100% certain the way my brain works like it's just but my dad used to tell me like I used to hate going to the gym. I still hate going to the gym to terrible degree, I really hate it. But my dad always used to say, Who cares what they think they're not going to be there when you're struggling, none of these people who were staring at you none of these people were passing judgment on, you would never lift a finger to help you at all. So why are you keep taking into account what they think about what you need to do to survive? When they're not gonna be there,
KC Davis 45:22
you need what you need,
Imani Barbarin 45:23
right?
KC Davis 45:24
So there's probably some other people listening that maybe aren't necessarily resonating with that message. But they're realizing that they have never really given a ton of conscious thought to ableism or to ego ableism or maybe just ableism in general. And I'm curious if someone's listening, and they're thinking, Oh, my gosh, these are concepts that I have totally never thought before, but totally seems like something I should be aware of. Do you have any recommendations on where you think someone should start if they wanted to educate themselves further, or if they wanted to sort of do the work to not be a part of movements in a way in such a way that they leave behind the disabled population?
Imani Barbarin 46:03
Yeah, absolutely. So I always recommend since aamva, Leeds Disability Justice, work, they are excellent. There's also an organization called the strategic partnership for occlusive disaster strategies. They're working out of Louisiana right now. And they work internationally to prepare disabled people in particularly for natural disasters and climate change. They're run for and by disabled people, which is remarkable to see people in wheelchairs, like climbing rubble to get other disabled people out. Props to them always. There's also several articles that I wrote about climate change and disability. There's a couple articles on my website on the straw ban, which again, I refuse to revisit, it's traumatizing. There's a climate change article about disabled people. There's the Center for American Progress also does a lot of pieces on the intersection of disability and climate change, as well as disability justice in general. They have a disability justice initiative that you can look at. So there's just some of the research just off the top of my head. And where can they find you if they want to follow you? Oh, on my website is crutches and spice that calm at Imani underscore Barbara and on Twitter. And then I could use underscore and underscore spice on Tiktok and Instagram. Awesome. Well, Imani, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed our conversation. And I always love when other people with ADHD are on the podcast with me because I feel like oh, we can just be ourselves. We can just non sequitur through the next hour together.
KC Davis 47:31
I love that. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much. And I am going to say goodbye to everyone now