128: Your Latina Nutritionist Doesn’t Want You to Demonize Cultural Foods

Food rules, pop culture messaging, pressure, and the demonization of certain foods have huge impacts on the meals being eaten every day across the US. There is a better way to ensure we get the nutrition we need without beating ourselves up over the meals we eat. Dalina Soto, Your Latina Nutritionist, joins us for this eye-opening conversation. Join us!

Show Highlights:

  • Including your culture is an important part of nutrition.

  • Racial bias, demonized foods (like white rice), and pop culture messaging

  • Food IS fuel—but there’s more to it than nutrition!

  • Rethinking your nutritional hierarchy

  • Decision-making fatigue in meal planning 

  • Reevaluating the “food rules” we follow

  • The “eating out” vs. “buying more groceries” dilemma for American families

  • Dalina’s top tips for quick meals and easy hacks (An air fryer saves the day!)

  • We, as women, put much of the pressure around nutrition on ourselves.

  • Dealing with kids: the key is to keep offering new fruits and vegetables

  • The beauty in finding a good nutritionist who doesn’t demonize cultural foods

  • Dalina’s new book, coming in March: The Latina Anti-Diet

Resources and Links:

Connect with Dalina Soto: TikTok, Website, and The Latina Anti-Diet book

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:00

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    Hello, you. Sentient ball of stardust. Welcome to struggle. Care. I'm your host, K Davis, and today I am with your Latina nutritionist. That is Delina. Soto. Delina, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. So let's start here. I've been following you for a while on Tiktok. I love your content first of all, and you know your brand is is very emphatic about including your identity as a Latina. And I'm curious if you could sort of start there with like, why was that so important to you when talking about nutrition? Yeah,

    Dalina Soto 1:47

    so I think it's because there's not a lot of dietitians that look like me in the space. I think last I checked, 9% of dieticians identify as Latina or Latina or Latinx, whatever term they're using. And so I think for me, it was very important to talk about nutrition from that lens, because I didn't have that when I was in school and when I became a dietitian, and then I started practicing. So many of my clients, so many of my patients were like, nobody's ever explained food to me in this way. And so it was just very apparent to me the minute I became a dietitian, I was out in the field, that someone had to talk about our foods in a positive way, as opposed to what we usually see, which is a more negative light. So, you know, the interwebs just became the place where I started, yeah, yeah.

    KC Davis 2:44

    I do feel like and I didn't really even think about this until I started following your content. But you know, when you listen to most dietitians nutritionists, especially like the closer they are to diet culture or to kind of like the wellness grift, the more they all kind of sound the same. So I think, you know, you know, 1020 years ago, it was kind of like this demonization of fat, and now we have kind of, like the demonization of carbs and refined carbs. And, you know, the rice debate about white rice and brown rice and no rice at all and and all this. And then, you know, I feel as though it really wasn't until I started watching your content that I realized how much racial bias was happening in this sort of like wellness push about clean foods. And I mean, I'd always kind of seen it and learned about it from the perspective of, sort of like intuitive eating, or like healthism, and sort of thinking that like, oh, being healthy is more moral. But I think you were the person that really opened my eyes to like, oh no. This is, like, really specific along the lines of some racial bias about, like, what foods are healthy and what foods we kind of demonize. So can you talk to us a little bit about, like, what are some of those things, if someone's listening that they maybe haven't realized before, about some, like, pop culture messaging about health that's kind of coming in conflict with people's culture?

    Dalina Soto 4:20

    Yeah. So I think white rice is the perfect example. I think the global south all eats white rice, and there's obviously a history for it. We can, you know, go throughout history and talk about how it got certain places and why we got to white rice. But I think it's really important for people to understand all white rice starts off as brown rice, right? Like brown rice is a whole grain because it has all parts of the grain, right? So when we think about whole grain, we think about wheat, right? We think about barley, we think about oats. These are grains that basically have every part of the grain attached to it, and we consume it that way when it comes to white rice, though, because when it has that brand. That tough brown shell over it. It's really hard to cook with. I think we can all agree that brown rice takes a lot longer to cook, takes a lot longer to take on flavors. So throughout the years, you know, people realize that, and so they started refining rice by taking off the brand. And actually, white rice used to be consumed by like royalty, as opposed to, you know, because it took so much more labor to utilize it. And, you know, the poor people were the ones that were eating brown rice. And then that sort of shifted with technology, where we had the ability to refine it quicker, take that brand off quicker. And then that became like what we have now, right? And there are, you know, 1000s of varieties of rice. If you did not know that, people, but the majority of people eat some sort of white rice, whether it's basami, basmati, oh, my god, Basa me. Oh, my God, you could leave that in there, because that's funny, basmati rice, jasmine rice, we have the long grain, we have the short grain. So, like, it comes in all different types of variety, but it just means that we're taking that shell off. And, you know, people demonize it, because I think that in the wellness world, in diet culture, we have this idea that everything has to be perfect and give us the most nutrition. So if you're comparing white rice with brown rice, yes, brown rice is going to have a little bit more of fiber in it because it has that whole brand attached to it, but it is very minimal. Like, honestly, on average it's about one gram. Some of them have, like, 1.8 grams of fiber more, depending on the grain, depending on the type of rice. But to me, that's like, negligent like, white rice is a great vehicle to add nutrition. Nobody. And listen, if you are eating just white rice, I'm not going to shame you for it, but like, most people are adding other stuff to their rice, right? They're adding some sort of protein. A lot of time we're adding veggie to it. We're creating a full meal. So that little bit of fiber that you lose from taking the brand off, we're adding a crap ton of nutrition to it. So it's like, why are we forcing ourselves to eat something that doesn't hold on to flavor that great, takes so much to cook, and we're not going to enjoy it as much.

    KC Davis 7:18

    I certainly don't enjoy it as much. And also, like, if you are only eating white rice, probably there's, like, other problems happening in your life that you need some help with. Yeah, like, you're under struggle, like some financials, or, you know, maybe there's some sensory stuff going on, but, yeah, I think, you know, hearing you say that's so refreshing to hear someone say, like, oh, yeah, sure. Like, you know, there's probably a slight nutritional edge here, but, like, it's minimal. And I think that when we think about food, one of the things that, like, our wellness culture loves to do is, like, strip it down to be fuel only. There's kind of that, like, Food is fuel. Think of food as fuel. And it does seem like when you look at, okay, here's the benefit of this food over that food, and maybe something is a little bit nutritionally, you know better. But nutrition isn't the only purpose that food serves in our life. And I think that when we think about culturally, like, What food does in our lives, that I think it's really great that you're giving people permission to look at that as a valid benefit when you're doing your kind of like benefit analysis on choices, yeah.

    Dalina Soto 8:37

    And I think I mean, obviously your whole platform is like doing what you have to do right when you're not feeling so great, or just like prioritizing what's best, as you know, think earlier said, like struggle bus. But when I think of people being on the struggle bus, like, sometimes you are depressed, sometimes you have a crap ton of anxiety, sometimes you're not feeling your best. And if white rice is going to be something that's going to give you some sort of nutrition. It's better than nothing, right? So I got a lot of people, especially, you know, from the US, that will be like, well, white rice with butter is like, one of my favorite things. And I'm like, awesome, if that's all that you can get in right now at this moment, great. But I want you to think about like every meal every day is a new beginning. If you only had white rice and butter for lunch, because that's all that you could afford, all that you could have, all that was available to you. How can we add nutrition the next time that you eat right? Like, what is available to you? That we can add some nutrition to your day? And I think if you can change your mentality of like, every meal has to be perfect, every meal has to be like Christy and top of the line, give me all the nutrition. If you are able to shift your perspective from that and just say, like, what's going to taste better, right? Like, what's going to taste good, right? Now, what can I add to this that's going to enhance the flavor, enhance the texture, enhance the nutrition. Every time you have a meal, if you can ask yourself that you're going. Gonna add something that's gonna give you some sort of nutrition. And this isn't, you know, a sprint, this is a long race we're gonna be eating for the rest of our lives. It's okay.

    KC Davis 10:16

    Yeah, I feel like one thing that really shifted for me was that I realized that, like, my hierarchy in my mind was such that it was like, eat, you know, don't eat bad things. Was like the number one hierarchy. And so I would go to my pantry or my fridge and I'd kind of freeze, and I'd be like, I'm hungry, but I don't have anything right here that feels like it's like, the quote, unquote, right choice, yeah, right. It's not a healthy choice. It's not a healthy you know. And so I just wouldn't eat, yeah? Because I feel like I would feel more guilty if I ate. The thing that, you know, in my head was like, that's not ideal, that's not healthy, that's not whatever. And it really did make a huge difference when I kind of, like, addressed that hierarchy and made, like, the number one hierarchy, just eat enough that, like, actually, if I'm sitting there and I'm going, Okay, I'm hungry and this is all I have, or just like, Okay, I'm hungry and I really don't want that thing in the fridge that I know is like the best nutritional option. So I just won't eat anything. And it's like, Wait, if I want to go by priority, it's like number one, eat number two, eat enough. And it was, it really dropped to like number three, where it was like, try to make choices about, like, the food that's going to meet my nutritional like benefits, and then I didn't feel like I was failing if I wasn't choosing like the nutritionally optimal choice, I felt like I was still succeeding, because it was, like, my only job, if all else fails, is just to eat.

    Dalina Soto 11:57

    Yeah, and I think again, most people have a hierarchy of individual ingredients, instead of thinking of like a meal, right? And so it's really important for us to think of like not one ingredient, not one food, is going to make or break you, right? When we eat, we should, we should try to have complete meals, right? And like, a complete meal should include a carb, a fiber, a protein, fat, right? So that you have the satiety, so that you have enough nutrition so it can carry you over for the next time that you eat, right? And snacks are usually going to be, you know, a carbon of protein for the most part. You know, most snacks are going to be a carpet of protein, or, like, protein and fiber, because those are just like the snacky foods that are, like, available to most people, or just like in our in America, right? Like, if we're going to go to the supermarket, if we're going to go, you know, to your local store in Philly, so like Wawa is like, the place that we're gonna stop if we need a snack, I'm gonna probably grab, you know, a bag of chips, or, you know, fruit and, like a string cheese. Like, there's gonna be a bunch of different things, but it's always gonna be like a carb or protein, right? So I think it's important for us to understand that, like, if I grab a bag of chips, which I often do. I am not a I'm not a bad person. Like, why I'm allowed to enjoy food without it having to have a nutrition purpose to it, right? Like, not all food is going to be the epitome of nutrition. Like, it's okay to have something sweet just because you want something sweet. But I think the bigger priority is, are you nourishing yourself enough throughout the day? Right? Like, are you eating enough throughout the day? Are you getting a variety? And once you get to a point where you have that kind of relationship with food, chips are no longer going to be like a bad thing to you. You're getting enough of everything throughout the day. So, like, chips are just that, something salty and tasty. So, like, I think it's about re thinking, like you said, the hierarchy of, like, what food is that? Yes, Food is fuel, but food is also connection, food is also satisfaction, food is also pleasure, food is community, food is family, many things. It's not just calories in, calories out,

    KC Davis 14:23

    well, and I think, you know, I'd gotten to the point where I'd heard the like, eat what you want, add what you need, and trying to think of like meals as more than just like the value of every ingredient. But I don't even think that I had taken that step where, because when you just said, like, you had chip like, not every meal, like, even widening that and looking at the day like, Oh, wait. Like the day is the unit of, like, trying to get the nutrition that I need, not, like, every instance of putting food in my mouth, yeah,

    Dalina Soto 14:56

    yeah, it's 24 hours you got, I. Yeah, you can eat a lot in 24 hours. And if you're not restricting, if you're not purposely restricting to eat the most minimal amount, you're going to be able to, like, you're going to have multiple snacks in a day. You're going to have multiple meals in a day. And every time that you eat is, again, a time where you can have something that's going to be delicious to you. I think people don't realize that, like, when we eat and we eat food that we like and we enjoy, we produce more gastric juices, right? Like, we're able to digest it better, because we're going to be salivating. We're going to have more enzymes in our saliva, our stomach juices are going to be, like, more activated, more enzymes. It's going to go into our gut, and it's going to be even more activated with, like, all the enzymes that you know are working on the food, because we're actually enjoying it. And I think in the United States, we have created this idea that food, again, like you said, is just fuel, and so people have, like, no pleasure from it. It's just like, Oh, I just ate today. Or I can meal prep on Sunday, eat the same exact thing every single day. And it's like, what is the fun in that? Like, where does that like, oh, you feel Yeah, we feel guilty if we enjoy it, yeah, and you shouldn't because, like, that's why the pleasure sensors light up in your brain. It's supposed to be pleasurable, it's supposed to taste good, right? It's supposed to hit the spot every once in a while. And I'm not saying that, like every meal is gonna be like that. Sometimes you're gonna eat meals that suck. They do. Sometimes I get and I get very angry, trust me, when I'm like, dang, I thought this meal was gonna be so good and it's nasty, but that's all right, my next meal is gonna be better.

    KC Davis 16:37

    Yeah, that honestly, yeah, like, but that honestly was another freeing part for me, was that, like, the first step was kind of realizing, like, it's okay for food to be pleasurable. But it was honestly, like a totally another, like, separate revelation when it was like, not every meal needs to be bombastic. Like, in fact, Emily and because I do kind of feel like I eat for pleasure, 24/7, right? And so I would make something, and I'd be like, oh, it just isn't great. But there was kind of this almost like, importance. And I mean, like, from a mental health perspective, like it's important for us to be okay with discomfort. And it was kind of that where it was like, it is okay if there's a meal that let you go, you know what? Like, it doesn't taste great, but like, it's got some good nutrition in it, and I'm just gonna do it, and it's like, there's also some power in that, where it's like, it's almost kind of like a mindful non judgment, where it's like, we don't have to, like, demonize something for being pleasurable, or stay away from pleasure, or be like, you know about that, but at the same time, like, it's okay if it's not great every single time.

    Dalina Soto 17:46

    Yeah. I mean, it's really hard because I think again, we've grown up in a society with so all or nothing. There's like, no nuance when we talk about food. And to have a good relationship with food, you have to be able to discern a lot, and also you have to be able to, like, do what's best for you at that particular moment in time when you're eating. And that is very hard for people to do, because they have a lot. You know, the fatigue with decision making is hard. So I do understand people that are like, I'm just gonna meal prep, and I'm just gonna, you know, have everything available for the week so that I don't have to make the choice. That is probably, like, the number one thing I hear from clients is like, I don't want to make the choice anymore. Tell me what to eat, and I'm like, but that no longer. It's like, you're not in control anymore. You have, there's no, like, looking forward to a meal anymore, where you do that. So, like, for me when I talk to my clients, you know, I'm like, you can prep certain things. You could have veggies cut up. You could have proteins available, but you can create different meals from the same ingredients, like you don't have to, you know, create, cook, you know, brown rice, chicken and broccoli, which is like, and have it divided in a little container five times so that you can eat it, you know, Monday through Friday. Like you don't have to. You can create the chicken. I mean, you can cook the chicken. You can add different sauces to it. You can have it with potatoes, you can have with pasta. You can have it with rice. You can have it in a wrap, like you can prep certain things to make your life easier, and then have different meals with it. It doesn't have to be so like, rigid and strict. And I feel like people have such a hard time with that, because we've been told that we had to be perfect and rigid and strict with our health. That's not healthy either, because it takes you to the different extreme.

    KC Davis 19:35

    Yeah. And I think what has been the most difficult thing for me, as I've like, tried to deprogram from diet culture, is it was probably like, you know, six or seven years ago when I came across kind of this idea of anti diet, of intuitive eating, of getting rid of food rules, and how, like, food rules can be really restrictive and they can be really oppressive, and they can be they can cause a lot of disordered eating. And. And things like that. But one of the things that I kind of ran into as I was trying to unpack those go, Okay, no more food rules. You know, we're just gonna, you know, make choices. I don't know if it's my ADHD or what, but I found that, like the mental load of making food choices got so much bigger when I got rid of food rules, because although I understood that the food rules I had weren't healthy, they were too rigid. There's something about just having a bunch of rules to follow that makes it easy and automatic, and you don't have to, like, think, because now I feel like I go to the fridge and it's like, okay, I'm hungry. It's important to eat, and what am I going to choose? And it needs to be satiating. And let me make sure it has the proteins I need, but let me make sure that I'm not just doing that, just thinking about this meal. I don't want to be too rigid, okay, what if i Let's get something that's full. Okay, what if it like, I just feel like it's like, I have to now think about so much, and it's exhausting, especially if there's other things going on where it's like, okay, I really want to eat that, but I know that would be better for me. Okay. Well, I don't want to be, you know, food really, and only eat what I want to eat. Okay, well, but I don't want to just not think about my health and eat this thing. Well, I can put them together, but I don't actually want to put them together. Okay. Well, what if I did that? And it's like, so I find myself almost like, missing the food rules, or like thinking about clients saying, like, just tell me what to eat. Like, I remember saying that to a dietitian, and it wasn't she was like, No, it's about no rules. And I was like, I just want to do something just to be easy. And I think that's the hardest part, is it's like our intuition about food has been so damaged that it's like it works overtime now, yeah,

    Dalina Soto 21:52

    and I think again, you know, if I'm very if I'm being very candid, right? I think that that's one of the bigger issues with intuitive eating, is that a lot of people read the books, follow these lists that are posted on social media, but there's no one there to guide them through it. And then there's also the fact that, like, a lot of dietitians come in and they're like, I'm going to be intuitive eating. But then they also have their own sets of rules. And like, I talk about this in my book, not to plug it in. But I talk about like, why Intuitive Eating is so hard, and why so many people kind of like, take the food rules that they had before and kind of like, flip flop it for the intuitive eating principles and create another list of rules. So it's really, really hard, and I hold space for that, and it takes time to connect with yourself, connect with your body, so that you don't have to feel overwhelmed like that anymore. But sometimes you do need to have, you know, things available to you that you can put together. Sometimes you have to prep like, I think it doesn't again. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, because a lot of people throw the rules away and say, Screw this and then go to, like, a very unhealthy place, right? Where they're like, my dietitian said I could eat whatever I want, so I'm gonna eat three sleeves of Oreo cookies, and then I'm like, and then how did you feel afterwards? Because that wasn't a good feeling either, right? So you have to find a balance. It's not just eat all of the cookies or just eat only kale. It's, How are we going to live a life where food is in ruining your everyday because all you do is think sometimes, for that, for those purposes, you have to eat practically. Sometimes you do eat for taste, right? You eat for like, Oh, my God, this looks amazing. I might not be hungry right now, but like, I have just opened my fridge and I saw, like, a piece of cake, and I want to have a little slice of it. Sometimes you're going to do that, and that's okay. Sometimes you're going to prep ahead and have things available to you. Like, I just made violets, dense bean salad the first time. It was so good I'm going to eat it for lunch after this. But I'm like, Oh, I'm excited to eat because it's actually very delicious, and I prep that, and I've been eating it all week, like she said. And so it's working with somebody that's gonna understand you, right? You have ADHD. You need to work with somebody that's gonna help you, right, figure out what's best for you, not for the masses, but, like, what's gonna work for Casey, like, all right, maybe for you, we need to have a little bit more rigidity, not rigidity. Oh, my God, I can't even speak

    KC Davis 24:27

    English. Like, more guidance, though, you

    don't have more guidance,

    a bit more of a pattern, right?

    Dalina Soto 24:32

    Yeah, yeah, something that is beneficial for you, right? And we do see that a lot like, you know, many of us have a lot of ADHD symptoms. I am not going to self diagnose myself, but I think we do live in a world where it's just again. We're bombarded with a lot of decisions. So having some sort of guide is important, but it might not work for everybody, like for some people, meal prep doesn't work at all. So I'm just like, okay, what can we have? In your fridge that's no cook that we could just throw together for a meal or throw together for a snack. For other people, it's like, all right, you can actually afford to order out. So if you can afford to order out, why are you stressing? Because I can afford to order out. And I will tell you that I utilize that to my advantage a lot, because I have two kids, and they have soccer and they have dance and we're running around like crazy, and sometimes I'm like, we're just gonna order Thai food today, and it has a lot of veggies, it has protein and it has nutrition, and we're gonna eat it because that's what's available right now. And we gotta go. Or sometimes that, you know, there's a local company that does like meal prepping. If I like the menu for the week, I'll order and just have, like, you know, the breaded chicken already ready, the pasta already right? I'm like, throwing these meals together that a chef prepped, and we can do that, but I can afford that. I have that privilege. Not everybody has that privilege. So my job as a dietitian is trying to figure out, okay, what can we do to help you, right? And so that's why these, like, blanket statements of just like, eat, where you want eat, where you're hungry. Prep, this prep that is, like, that's not beneficial for everybody. And some people are gonna go off the deep end, and it's not gonna be.

    KC Davis 26:11

    I remember, like, the dietitian I was working with that did a lot of intuitive eating, you know, we kept trying to talk about, like, well, how does your body feel after you eat? You know, chicken versus a Big Mac. And I kept being like, yeah, it doesn't feel any different.

    Dalina Soto 26:26

    I was like, that Big Mac probably hit the spot.

    KC Davis 26:30

    Like, I'll admit that, you know, sure, maybe energy level, whatever. But I was like, but I just like, truly, I don't feel any different. And she finally, after we, like, kind of did that investigation for a while, was like, I mean, honestly, some people don't and, like, intuitive eating sometimes overstates the importance of, like, you know, just, you know, close your eyes and how does it feel, and eat it. And I'm like, I don't feel I always like a Big Mac

    Dalina Soto 27:03

    Exactly, exactly. It

    KC Davis 27:05

    was, in fact, like life changing. The first like, and this was actually like a piece of financial advice. I heard someone say where they were talking about how most of us are in this cycle where it's like, we're eating out too much, and we're like, okay, we're spending too much money, so we need to, like, stop eating out and just buy the groceries at home. But then, like, what we realistically do is we buy the groceries and then we still eat out, and we're all and the thing, and every week, we're like, I need to eat out less. I need to eat out less. And finally, I heard this person be like, I mean, let's be real. Just stop buying the groceries. Yeah, because they're going to waste. Because that's like, if we kind of look, and I just feel like that really felt good with, like, my whole approach to everything, and like, house cleaning and things like that. It's like, let's look at what we're doing and be realistic that. Like, if we were to look at our real patterns, like, the actual way to save some money here would be to, like, quit buying those things that are like turning into a puddle in the refrigerator every single week because we're just buying them as a way of atoning for how bad we feel for all of the takeout when, in reality, maybe there are some takeout choices I could shift for nutritional purposes or financial purposes, right? And then I'll stop buying the food that's like, going to waste in my fridge. And then, like, I actually still could address my money and my nutrition in a more realistic way,

    Dalina Soto 28:36

    yeah. And I think for me, like, I know my kids love fresh fruit. So we have all the fresh fruits. We have strawberries, we have blueberries, we have raspberries, Mango bananas, you know, apples, like mandarins. We have everything in my house at all times, but veggies. Veggies are not their favorite things. And you know, we're working on it. They're seven and 10. So I buy a lot of frozen veggies. Most of my veggies are frozen, except for lettuce, that's only I even buy frozen avocados. And people are like, what I'm like, Yeah, I just throw them in a blender, you know, or like, you thaw it out when you need them. But almost everything that I know is gonna potentially go bad easily, I'm gonna buy frozen so I, you know, buy my onions and peppers frozen, already cut up. That's a lifesaver. Because when I'm cooking and I'm making proteins and I want to add veggies to it, I'm like, dumping that in, right? I'm usually here alone for lunch, and I love pasta and peas, like, like, I go through, like, petite sweet peas, like crazy. Because any pasta that I'm if it's a creamy pasta, I'm like, oh, peas. I'm adding peas to this. So, you know, I love that. I mean, I love Aldi, I do. And so I buy their green beans. They have, like the fancy green beans. My kids do love those. So I buy them frozen, and I roast them in the air fryer, and they taste like they're fresh, because they actually. Hold more nutrition. I don't think people realize that veggies and fruits are flash frozen at their peak brightness, so that nutrition is intact while they're frozen, as opposed to, like, the fresh stuff that's at the supermarket loses nutritional value daily as it's sitting there. And again, nothing wrong with it. I'm not telling people not to eat fresh fruits and vegetables, but I'm saying that, like, you could have a little bit of both, and if it's going to be more cost effective, if it's going to be less waste, buy frozen and the air fryer is, like the most amazing piece.

    KC Davis 30:32

    I live by my there. I have never met a frozen food that I can't put it 350 for like, six minutes. That's

    Dalina Soto 30:43

    right, that's right.

    KC Davis 30:43

    That's where my green beans go. I don't even read the directions anymore. No, it's like, it's that or 12 minutes. It depends on if it's like a chicken breast, it's like, oh, that's a 12 minute. That's a 12 minute item right there. If it's smaller than that, it's like, oh, yeah, that's a six minute item. 356 minutes. I don't know why I started doing it with broccoli, frozen broccoli. I mean, everything

    Dalina Soto 31:05

    I do it with everything, I don't even use my my oven anymore, because that's what it technically is. It's a small convection oven that's just like tiny, and rotates the air quicker and hotter and dehydrates quicker. So it makes everything like crunchy. So that's why, I guess that like fry effect. But, like, I love to buy again. I go to Wegmans a lot. I don't know if people have Wegmans, but Wegmans has a lot of, like, pre prepped proteins. So my kids love breaded chicken. And yes, I could bread it myself. I could totally be Nora here and breaded myself, but I don't want to, and I can afford buying, you know, a six pack of, like, huge, you know, fresh patties that are just frozen and breaded, and I just have to throw them in the air fryer. They're raw. So I throw them in the air fryer and, boom, my daughter loves steak. It's so expensive. So I buy it and I freeze it and, you know, I'll air fry it when you know she wants to have it. So like I think, we have to start thinking outside of the box when it comes to nutrition and doing what's best for us, because cooking everything from scratch is not it, unless you want to love that for you, if you want to do that, and we have to lean into convenience, because cooking from scratch was created for the woman that was at home while the husband was at work. You know, 40 hours a week you're home, you're cleaning, you're cooking, we're all working now.

    KC Davis 32:33

    We don't have time for it, so we're gonna

    Dalina Soto 32:36

    lean into frozen things.

    KC Davis 32:37

    I forgot who it was that was talking about like, I think they were looking at like England, like through the ages, and they were like, the thing you don't realize is that like, this idea of like people cooking for themselves every day is like, a very new thing, because either there was, like, one person in your family who was cooking all day, or She was talking about how, like, the way that inns used to be set up, like, there's a reason why, you know, when you read your like books, or I always read, like, fantasy books that are kind of set in, like that England ish era. It's always like a tavern where you can rent a room, but there's also, like, someone serving food, you know, get your like, gruel or whatever, and they're like, that's how a lot of people ate, yeah. And I think, like, you were eating something someone else was cooking all day, like somebody, it had to be someone's full time job,

    Dalina Soto 33:29

    yeah. And I think, I also think in Latin America, right, a lot of people that were well off hired, they had somebody that was there, right? Like, the idea of, like, the Latina made, right? A lot of it comes from the fact that, like, you know, that was a job that a lot of women did for the wealthier families, or, like, the middle class families, like they had help, they had someone that was cleaning and cooking, even if they themselves weren't working. That was a sign of you being, you know, what's the word? Like, not rich, but like, just, you know, yeah,

    KC Davis 34:06

    somebody

    Dalina Soto 34:07

    privileged. You were somebody in somebody's town, you were married to the doctor, to the lawyer, you had help. And it's very, I think it's very new. It's a very new concept that now we're working, and then now we also have to do the eight hours of work at home as well. Like, give yourself some grace.

    KC Davis 34:28

    I haven't cooked. Like, I cook a little, but like, the full out, like, really make the protein and the two sides and some roll. Like, I haven't done that consistently and so long I do it when I think it's fun or when I really have a hankering for, like, a dish that's really nostalgic for me, but I will just never forget. Like, I had been married for five, six years, and I was making dinner every night. And like, first of all, I like, god bless my husband, who like. Since the day I met him, the words like, what's for dinner have never come out of his mouth. And I realized this one day, because, like, he came home and I was like, I'm so sorry I cooked dinner. And he was like, I don't care. And he was like, let's just order something. And then I started kind of, like, paying attention. And I realized that when he was asking about dinner, it was always, what do you want to do for dinner? Yeah, that's what we asked. I was the one responding, I'm gonna cook meatloaf. And he was like, Cool, right? And so, like, you know, five, six years in, and I'm just had a baby, and I'm like, cooking dinner. And I finally was like, I don't think I can do this anymore, and he's like, okay, like, I realized, like, Oh my God. Like, I have put this on myself. Yeah. I mean, society teaches that. Like, this man has never cared about whether or not we were eating dinner. And so, like, I quit. And so now I did. So now, like, I feed our kids at like, six o'clock, and you know, they're at that age where they're not eating big, huge meals anyway, so like, making their stuff is pretty simple, and then, like, I'll either eat what they're eating or I'll feed myself something. He gets home later, and if I've already eaten, he just fends for himself. And if I'm still hungry, we go, Hey, let's order something. And it's just, you know, I think that there's a lot of really important stuff to say about division of labor and the entitlement of men and the way that, you know society, sort of, you know, the disempowerment of women under the weight. But I do think it's important to point out that we sometimes put some of that weight on ourselves. We do. I mean, like, 100% the people in our lives can absolutely do that. So I'm not trying to say, like, it's our fault. We can just believe in ourselves and throw off the chains like but I do think that like, to a degree, sometimes, you know, the call is coming from inside the house on the whole like, I'm a failure of a adult or a mom if I'm not, like, cooking a dinner every night. Yeah,

    Dalina Soto 37:08

    yeah. And I think, you know, I remember before I had kids, I would be like, you know, because you go to school to be a dietitian, and they're like, everybody eats the same meal. Everybody says, you want to set these standards for your kids. I'm sure you learned that and there. And now I'm like, I'm sorry, but if my kids are like, I want pasta and chicken for dinner, and that's not what I want, I'm gonna make the pasta takes 12 minutes.

    KC Davis 37:33

    Thank you. I'm

    Dalina Soto 37:35

    gonna make them that chicken, and then I'm gonna have a meal I want. And you know what? We'll all sit together. You know, for the most part, my kids call it juicy chicken, but it's literally just like, I make chicken in the wok and it has like, soy sauce, and I make it with like, chicken broth, and it's just like a little like, has a little more wetness to it. It's juicy, they say. So they love that they could eat that every single day. So most of the time, like I said, like, I have the chicken cubed and prepped, like, I'll buy it, I'll cube and prep it. I put it in a big container, I'll season it, and then when they want juicy chicken, I'm just throwing it in the wok with all the ingredients, and then I'm giving them fruit. They always want pasta. They want pasta every day. And I'm like, that's fine. You could have pasta every day. I'm not having pasta, but we sit together, we have dinner. They have their pasta and juicy chicken, and they're, you know, fruit or veggie. And then, you know, my husband and I have whatever it is that we decided to eat that night for dinner, you know. But I think we also, I was very naive when I first started the diet. I would tell my patients this, like, no, your kids should be eating a yes, they should be, for the most part, you shouldn't be a short order cook, but pasta is not going to take that long, right? Like the chicken I'm making is not taking that long. Why am I going to fight with them?

    KC Davis 39:01

    I mean, little kids have so little control over their life as it is, you know, it's like, this is like, the one meal a day that it's like, yeah, babe, if you want pasta and chicken, I will make you pasta and chicken. I'll make it every night

    Dalina Soto 39:14

    of the week exactly. You want pasta chicken or strawberries. Here you go. You want some green beans in there. Love that for you capacity to fight. I mean, when they're babies, you obviously want to offer them a lot of more variety, and that's more when they're eating the same things that you are, right, because they don't have the ability to vocalize their choice yet. But I think I've also learned that we take the choice away from our kids in everything. It makes me sad. Like, you know, they're little humans too. They should have autonomy, and sometimes they don't like certain foods, and that's all right. Like, you don't have to force them. I think, as a parent, our job is to offer things, and they get to decide whether they like it or not, but we also have to offer it a lot, and I know parents get very discouraged, like, my kid doesn't eat it. Any veggies my kids doesn't need to do this. And I'm like, literally, you have to offer it, like, what, 2030, times for them to accept it. And it's like, my son is seven. He you could offer him all the green beans. He's still not there yet. But he did tell me. He's like, you know, Mom, you know you told me to try at lunch, like, to grab like, the cucumbers or the carrots. He's like, I actually got the carrots and I really like them. I'm like, Cool. So now when you buy lunch at school, you could have the carrots and an apple. He's like, Yeah, I think I could do that. Boom, done. He's eating carrots. Now,

    KC Davis 40:33

    yeah, they talk a lot about, like, oh, you expose them. You expose them. You know, you have them. Try it. You have them. Try it. But I feel like what we found is that nobody ever really talks about the actual first step, which is it just tolerating it on your plate. Yes, that too, yeah. Like, that's our only rule is, like, you don't even have to try it, yeah, but it is gonna stay on your plate away. You can't take it off your plate and put it on the table like it does need to stay on your plate. Like, listen for a four year old, like, that's actually a pretty big step that has to happen before you come around to the like, I guess I'm willing to take a bite or whatever so or

    Dalina Soto 41:10

    smell it, yeah, or touch it or lick it.

    KC Davis 41:13

    Well, that's yeah, like, looking at it and smelling it like is a part of the process. And so they are habituating to foods, even if they're not even before they're tasting them,

    Dalina Soto 41:23

    yeah, yeah. And having some sort of, like routine with it too, right? Like, I think, is also important, like, having them, know, like, I'm always going to put like, a veggie on here, or I'm always going to put a fruit, and again, knowing that, like, it's okay if your kid doesn't like the broccoli, like, there's a ton of other vegetables out there. You know, broccoli is not the only one. And I'm like, you know, why do we want kids eating fruits and vegetables, for the vitamins, for the fiber, right? For the minerals? If my kid isn't eating broccoli, I really don't care, because he's literally housing a quart of strawberries a day.

    KC Davis 42:01

    Seriously, I am keeping the strawberry business like

    Dalina Soto 42:05

    he goes to the blueberry pines of blueberries. Yeah, yeah. We do. We keep the Yes, yes. And, you know, I'm like, as long as he's eating fiber, and I know he's eating fiber because I see how much he poops, we're okay. I'm okay. He's getting enough protein, he's getting enough carbs, he's getting enough fiber, he's getting his vitamins. You know,

    KC Davis 42:24

    we're good. So before we end, I want to kind of loop back to where we started. Was the importance of people being able to connect with dietitians and nutritionists that at least respect people's connection to their cultural foods and all these things that we've been talking about, about, you know, food having more value than just fuel, and not getting caught up in food rules and things like that. I'm curious if you could just share like, have you seen people have clients come to you that have been with previous dietitians or are consumed previous sort of like, try self study about stuff. Like, what is the difference it makes to them to have someone not demonize foods that are culturally significant to them that, like, maybe, like white wellness culture would kind of demonize

    Dalina Soto 43:21

    I mean, yeah, we I know I have people break down in sessions all the time crying, because nobody's ever explained it to them in that way, right? I think the mainstream media, mainstream dietetics, is not going to look like me. It's going to look more like you, right? So when people find someone that's talking about it in a different way, they definitely gravitate towards it, and they just feel seen and heard. And you know how important that is when you're working towards, you know, any goals or any health, you know, values. So, yeah, I mean, I have seven dietitians on my team, and they all experience the same thing, right? Like, we all have people just kind of, like, it's like, they're able to stop the code switching. They're able to, like, kind of like, take the load off and be themselves during sessions without being judged. I think a lot of the times, you know, we hear from patients like, well, you know, I told them I ate, you know, Mexican food, and then the first thing they say is, don't eat tortillas anymore. And it's like, Well, really, I'm not eating tortillas every day, but thanks. There's a lot of like biases connected to our food. So I think when they get to work with somebody who like, can see food differently, especially from that cultural standpoint. And listen, we work with people from all over the world, and sometimes I don't know what their food is, and the first thing I say is, like, can you explain it to me? I've never heard of that. Like, can you tell me what it is like? Can you break it down for me? Because we don't eat food separately. So sometimes they're telling me about a dish, and I'm like, Oh my God, that's fiber. Oh my god, that has a ton of vitamin A. Oh my god, that is like, a full protein. And. Like, what nobody's ever told me that I'm like, Yeah, because they're not thinking of nutrition in that way, because that's not how we're taught in dietetics. Unfortunately, that could be a whole nother episode, but I think that when you work with somebody who understands your food and you and your goals and understands just that, like cultural context, it does make a huge difference.

    KC Davis 45:24

    Yeah, well, please plug your book for us and tell us where people can follow you, where they can find your book. Yeah.

    Dalina Soto 45:30

    So my book is coming out March 18 of next year. It's called the Latina anti diet, and it is available now for pre order, so you can get it anywhere books are sold. And, yeah, all my handles are you're Latina nutritionist on Instagram and on tick tock and on threads. But on threads, I'm not talking nutrition. On threads, I'm on head

    KC Davis 45:52

    coach. And, well, Delena, thank you so much for your time and for just dropping a whole lot of wisdom on us in regards to food, so yeah, thank you so much.

    Dalina Soto 46:03

    Thank you for having me. You.

Christy Haussler
127: Addiction Treatment is a Cesspool; Here’s How I Would Navigate It with Heidi Voet

Where can you turn when a loved one is in the throes of addiction and needs help? How do you know what professionals to trust and if a treatment center is reputable? So many questions surround the topic of addiction treatment, and it’s a murky industry. We are discussing the seedy underbelly of the addiction industry with my guest. Heidi Voet, LPC, is a longtime mental health professional and the owner of Chapter House Counseling and Sober Living. Heidi and I take on this important topic and explain why, despite the problems, we would still send a loved one into treatment. Join us to learn more!

Show Highlights:

  • Heidi’s take on the ugliness of the treatment industry

  • Understanding the medical model of treatment vs. the community model

  • 12-step programs, legalism, insurance corruption, and integrity

  • The truth: Exploitation has bled into addiction treatment.

  • The real dilemma for family members

  • The struggle for political correctness while trying to intervene for an addict

  • Heidi’s advice to families who want to intervene:

  • Don’t intervene too fast. 

  • Find the lowest level of appropriate care (think of a ladder of options).

  • Be wise and ask questions of the consultant, case manager, or interventionist. (“Are you on the payroll of a treatment center?”)

  • Speak to current clients, alumni, and families of the center.

  • Red flags in your interaction with a treatment center and helpful questions to ask

  • The need to consider gender-specific treatment

  • Why KC would never recommend a wilderness treatment center

  • Assessing a center’s approach to trauma, medications, and religious philosophies/affiliations

Resources and Links:

Connect with Heidi Voet and Chapter House Counseling: Website

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:05

    Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I am your host, KC Davis, and today I have Heidi boett here in the studio with me. Heidi is the owner of chapter house counseling and sober living, and we're going to talk today about the seedy underbelly of the addiction industry and why we would still probably send someone that we love to treatment. Hi, Heidi. Hello. Thanks for having me. So you know, I feel like you and I, like, get on the phone sometimes and have like, gab sessions about, like, how much we hate the treatment industry, despite the fact that, like, I worked in it for a long time, and you still work in it and and so I wish we could, like, talk about some of these things, but I find it ironic that, like, when I talk about the treatment industry, and people are like, so then, like, what would you do if your child had an addiction, or, like, your partner needed rehab, and I'd be like, I mean, I'd send them to rehab. Like, I would still send them

    Heidi Smith 1:00

    to me, like, unfortunately, there's a need, you know, I mean, and I find myself, too, being really conflicted on my opinions, like you said. I mean, obviously I work in this industry, and there's times that, like, even in my head, I'll go back and forth to, you know, thinking, you know, how trashy this industry can be, you know, and how it's crazy. It can almost be kind of political, too. It's like all addiction treatment should be free. This is crazy that people are having to pay money and that people can't access good treatment if they don't have money, you know, all that stuff. But then, on the other hand, as a mental health professional who's worked really hard to educate myself and build a career, I also feel like mental health professionals deserve to be paid well, you know. So there's this, like, it's like, this double edged sword of, like, addiction treatment camp. I mean, how do you give good care for something and have the professionals that are doing it not be getting paid, you know? And so it's kind of a spiral down, you know, of the systems in place, especially in the United States, around healthcare and, you know, reimbursement rates and all of that, which I know is for another day, but it's all plays into, I think, why? Sometimes this industry can be really ugly,

    KC Davis 2:08

    yeah, and I think in my head there's like, you know, when I was coming up in the industry, a lot of the treatment centers really utilize, like, the medical model of addiction, where it's like, all we need to do is get you sober and give you some tips and tricks and then send you on your way. This is all we need to do. And there were other places that were doing more of like a community model, where they were really looking at, like bio, psycho social, like holistic healing. And I was like, see, that's what we need to be doing. We need to be doing community model. We need to move away from the medical model, and like theoretically, I still believe that. But the problem was, was that what seemed to be happening is that in the community model, it was like they were turning into little cults like you often the staff were themselves in recovery, and they were like, really married to their own kind of version of recovery. And a lot of the staff that were actually administering the treatment were just like 24 year olds with two years of sobriety that were being underpaid, and they're passionate, but underpaid. You

    Heidi Smith 3:22

    know, that's the other thing. Unique thing about this industry is that, you know, it's staffed almost exclusively by people in recovery themselves, and so, you know, and I mean, I know we're not talking necessarily about the troubled teen industry, but obviously there's an overlap. And I have that same and I know you've spoken to it a lot on Tiktok, but, I mean, I have the same conflicts around I mean, when I've watched some of those exposes on Netflix and whatnot, I sit there and I think, oh my gosh, this is so awful. But there's another part of me that, as a professional in this industry who's worked at facilities and been passionate about, you know, holding clients feet to the fire and, you know, and having a passionate philosophy of how to run a program and what was really best for the clients, and finding myself oddly feeling, you know, compassion for the programs that are being exposed, and thinking to myself, like, gosh, I think they were trying to help, like, I think they believed in what they were doing. It's like, it just, it can fall off a cliff real fast. So it's a lot of complexities

    KC Davis 4:23

    well, and I think to that, and it's not like, I mean, part of the irony of like dealing with an industry where so many of the professionals are themselves in recovery, is that, like a lot of people in my life, are in recovery from drugs and alcohol, and I feel like there's very few just like average, like people of average integrity. Like, if you just took like a section of the population, you would find some people that have, like, great integrity and are on, like a, you know, a spiritual path of growth, and, you know, being a better person. And then you. Have people who are just like malignant narcissists, who are bad, you know, people who are bad people, people who are here to like, you know, be deceitful and just get all for themselves, and they're sick and toxic. But I feel like the majority of the population are just like, you know, in the middle, like we're all selfish sometimes, but we all have good in us sometimes, and yada and maybe I'm biased, but I feel like all of the people I know in recovery, there's like, a very small portion that are of that, like, average integrity. It's like they're either super committed to integrity, or they're kind of pieces of shit, crap,

    Heidi Smith 5:36

    absolutely, absolutely because, yeah, because, I mean, if you kind of buy into the principles of the 12 steps in recovery. There's this legalism that comes with that, you know, the idea that, like, you really have to hold yourself to this very high standard if you want to not die, you know? And so, so, yeah, there is this kind of upper echelon of of high moral standards and high integrity. Or it's just, it's like, a bunch of guys with anti social personality disorder running treatment

    KC Davis 6:06

    centers, yeah. And so, like, you know, going into the industry, I was so, like, bright eyed and Bucha tailed, and, you know, I was like, This is gonna be great, because, like, we know what it's like to go through addiction. Like, we know what people really need, and and I'm gonna get educated, and we're gonna come together and we're gonna have and, like, it appeared to be that way, like people, you know, even staff, would talk about, you know, being accountable and having integrity, and, but then, like, the longer I stayed in the industry, I started to see just how, like, the dark side of, like, people who were in recovery, but like, weren't actually doing any personal growth work. And I'm not just talking about, like, relapse. I'm just talking about people who, like, they got sober, but like, they continued to be, like, morally bankrupt.

    Heidi Smith 6:59

    It's so unfortunate, because it ends up really, really affecting the lives of the people that are there to get help. Like, I will never forget,

    KC Davis 7:07

    like, being in, like, working in a treatment center and having, like, someone on the leadership come to me and be like, listen, there's this, like, client who is ready to discharge. But I think I like, I want you to figure out a way to keep her longer, because her insurance is paying us so much money for her drug test. And this was at the time where this was, like a big part of the addiction industry, where we, you know, you mentioned low reimbursement rates, like, it is truly a crime, how low insurance pays for treatment, and so what a lot of facilities figured out? And I truly believe, again, it was like, split like, I think some people figured it out of a

    Heidi Smith 7:55

    almost like a benevolent workaround. It was like, I'm passionate figure out how we can get more money to help more people. You know, yes,

    KC Davis 8:02

    like, I want to keep the doors open. I want it to be affordable. Let's figure out how to get these crooked insurance to pay. Like, here's a loophole. And the loophole they found was that, although there were tons of like, checks and balances and regulations around how much insurance would pay for, like, a therapy session or, like an intensive outpatient, some policies were paying like, hundreds or 1000s of dollars for a drug test, like you could bill them for every drug test at these insane rates. And then, of course, you had like, the dark side of it, where people were just like, I can get rich.

    Heidi Smith 8:36

    Oh yeah. I mean, it became an absolute phenomenon, you know. And what happened is that, you know, there was, it was all these very specific lab tests that everybody figured out, you know, kind of the medical end of your insurance, you know, people's insurance would pay astronomical rates, and you could do them, you know, five days a week. So, I mean, somebody could be in treatment for 45 days, and you could bill, you know, five days a week, insane amount of money. And you'd be people were making millions of dollars, sometimes off of clients lab tests. So then what treatment owners would do is they would start their own lab. So they realized, like, we could have our own lab. And so then there became a lot of ethical gray area, you know, around this whole drug test scheme, the federal government got involved, and I mean a lot, most of it's been shut down at this point. So

    KC Davis 9:32

    it was straight up fraud in a lot of ways. Because, like, it wasn't just the kind of test you would like send away to a lab. It was like, literally, the $3 cup from Walgreens, and you could bill insurance, you know, $3,000 for you dip in that. Like you could pay a 20 year old with two years of sobriety, like, $12 an hour to, like, dip P sticks into the $3 cups, and then bill insurance $4,000 and again. Yeah. There is this, you know, when it was people who were like, and then we take that money and we scholarship clients, or we pay therapists, yeah,

    Heidi Smith 10:08

    or we keep the people for longer we're able to extend their stay. Or, you know, yeah,

    KC Davis 10:12

    there was kind of this sentiment amongst the industry, which was like, I mean, fuck the insurance. Who cares? It's kind of like, when you see people be like, Rob from Walmart,

    Heidi Smith 10:22

    yeah, absolutely. And they're not, we're not making a sustainable income source, you know, from just the regular billing. So let's figure out some sideline stuff,

    KC Davis 10:31

    yeah? But then one of the things that started to also happen was that you'd get these guys who would open up sober livings

    Heidi Smith 10:40

    and and then they'd start a lab,

    KC Davis 10:43

    and then they'd start a lab. And so it's like, there's no clinical services. They're just literally people living in a house, calling it sober living. Maybe there's like a house manager that lives there, and they're drug testing 20 guys, you know, five days a week, and making 1000s of dollars and not putting that money, like, back into the program at all, just getting rich, just getting rich. Anyways, that was a bizarre

    Heidi Smith 11:10

    and at that point, if you if they relapsed, it would actually be better, because then you could just keep, you know, bring them back in and, you know, so that's where that kind of human trafficking, body brokering thing, you know, it's like, if somebody had good insurance, you know, you could almost sell them, you know, metaphorically, you know, to programs like, Hey, I got this guy, he's been shooting heroin, and he's got, but he's got great insurance, you know. And then it's like, hey, go pick him up on the side of the street and put him in your program. No one even cares if he's getting sober. You just care if he's his insurance is active, and you can bang his insurance for, you know, 12 drug tests a week. So it got really ugly,

    KC Davis 11:49

    yeah, like, body brokering was the term that we always use. But it like, it is straight up human trafficking. Like, Absolutely, it got so bad that people sober Livingston treatment centers would pay their like, I say this in quotes, but like marketers to go to 12 step meetings and, like, find the ones that were relapsing. And there were even, I mean, there were some rumors of, like, really corrupt places down in Florida that were, like, purposefully relapsing their clients.

    Heidi Smith 12:21

    I mean, it was absolutely insane. I guess the good news is, is that a lot of that has stopped, you know, and there have been a lot of protections that have come on the scene, you know, through the federal government and various, you know, credentialing that's required and things like that. But, I mean, it's a double edged sword, too, because, you know, it used to be with treatment. You either went to a treatment center, like you either had money to pay for treatment, or you had to go to kind of like a homeless shelter, indigent program. There was really not much in between. But once Obamacare came in and all the parity laws came in, insurance is now required to cover behavioral health and addiction treatment. So now that opened up this whole other Middle World where treatment centers can bill insurance. And so what's happened is, over the last 10 years, 10 to 15 years, the amount of treatment centers that have popped up in every city, I mean, it is exponentially larger than it was 15 years ago. So I mean, there's a treatment center on every corner, almost because insurance is required to cover it at the same they do for medical issues. So which is great. I mean, that was needed, that was needed, you know. But now back to the kind of the point of the podcast. I think it, it's like, how do you know which ones are good? And how do you know, what do you do when you need to send your loved one somewhere. And how do you figure out, you know, everyone says they're great online, but what does that really mean? And what do you look for? And it can leave it really confusing for the consumer. Yeah,

    KC Davis 13:49

    and I think, like, you know, there's even like, This is so weird, but I mean, men just suck sometimes, a lot of times, most of the time, and I'm so sorry if you're a man listening to this. Like, I have a lot of man in my life that I love, but men in general, like all of the like, systemic problems that we see men participate in politics and education. Like it's no different in the addiction industry, like it was commonplace for there to be some kind of big wig, and you would just find out, and you would just know on the down low, like, this guy is screwing clients. Like this guy is, like, I knew of like a CEO type one time who flew in a client from a different state under the guise of, like, she went to a program that, you know, I ran out there, and now she's relapsed, and I just want to bring her here a scholarship her. And then, like, you know, fast forward a few years, and it's like, oh, we realized that he was, like, sexually assaulting her. Yeah.

    Heidi Smith 14:59

    Yeah, yeah. It's like, unfortunately, it's like, the oldest story in the book, right? It's like, it's such a easy way. I mean, women and men that are, you know, in this compromised position of being sick with addiction, you know, a lot of times really lacking in resources. And you know, some ways it's like a breeding ground for people to come in and exploit them. And so it's a really unfortunate part of, I think, just the world in general, but it definitely bleeds into addiction treatment. I mean, yeah, like you said. I mean, there's a million stories. If you've worked in this industry, you know that you hear left and right so of sexual misconduct and

    KC Davis 15:36

    a lot of the stuff that came out about the troubled teen industry, where there was, like, these rehabs that were wilderness camps, where they would take teenagers to, like, hike through the wilderness, and come to find out there was a lot of physical abuse and neglect and clinical abuse, but I mean, even the facility, like the facility that I went to, wasn't a wilderness facility, but there was still some, like, pretty questionable interventions. Like, we weren't, like, starved or neglected, like, I think everyone that worked in my facility really wanted to help us, but again, the staff were, they were kind of going off book, like, just really intense interventions, lot of isolation, a lot of things that cause trauma. And I think what's really confusing for parents and loved ones is that they hear about like these horrors, and they think like, Well, how could anyone ever send their child to one of these places? And I think there's also like this comparison to like conversion therapy, where it's like, you know, it is horrible and traumatic and wrong to, like, send someone to conversion therapy, but where the metaphor breaks down is like, there's nothing damaging about being gay. Like gay doesn't need to be treated. Like addiction does actually need to be treated. Oh, yeah.

    Heidi Smith 17:01

    Well, I, I mean, I can't tell you how many phone calls I get from parents who, like, nobody wants to send their child to treatment, but, but they're crying on the phone and saying, but he can't stay here anymore. Like we have other children in the house. We have younger siblings. Like, he can't be here. He's out of control. So, like, I mean, you end up in a position where it's like, the lesser of the evils. He has to go somewhere, he has to get help. He's not well. It's not safe. It's not safe for my other children. And so, yeah, I mean, given choices of like, obviously, you know, your child doing great, and not having to send them anywhere, and then sending us. I mean, of course, nobody wants to do that, right? I mean, every kind of fork in the road like this is is in a really unfortunate situation where there's no good choices. But you know, I mean, there is still absolute need, you know, to be able to get a child or young adult or anybody you know, removed from their current living situation in their current environment to go get help. Like, I think that's always, there's always going to be a need for that. That's that's not going away. And so all the exposes in the world like, aren't going to remove the need,

    KC Davis 18:12

    yeah, and I think it's difficult when they're like, the theoretical conversations about, like, this should never happen, and no one should ever do this. And it's like, but then when you're actually a family member looking at your very real choices of like, okay, they can't stay here. I guess I could just kick them out, or go hide from them and have them on the street, but like, the reality is, it's like, if you have someone who needs help, you're forced to interface with the addiction treatment and all of its glorious potential and downside and dark side and upside. And the truth is, is that, like people do, go to rehab and get sober and get helped, and sometimes it at places that are kind of shitty, they get better. And sometimes people go to the best places in the most ethical places in the world, and don't get sober

    Heidi Smith 19:04

    well, and sometimes the path to getting freedom from addiction is traumatic, you know, I mean, I even think about your story. I mean, it's like, and I know you've shared some of it, you know, publicly, but it's like, I know there's a lot of it that was very traumatic. And is like, you look but it's like, I mean, here you are. That

    KC Davis 19:22

    was, what was there? Like, yeah, that. I mean, there is kind of this, like, you gotta break a bone to set it idea. And when people ask me, like, how are you not angry at your parents, I'm always like, I mean, what else should they have done? Like, they put me in therapy and I still used, and then they put me in outpatient and I still used, and then they put me in partial hospitalization, and I still used like I was gonna die, and like they had to choose between, like the trauma of me living in active addiction and dying, or like the trauma of me going to a place that, like I might still die, but there's a chance that maybe. I would get better, or that I would at least be like, held long enough to come to my senses or whatever. And it's a weird thing to make sense of, because on the one hand, like, I could say yes, it was traumatic and I deserved better, but like, look at me now. I'm sober and I'm happy and healthy, but at the same time, like, there are many girls that I went through with that are not that back in relapse, possibly with even more trauma, ones that killed themselves, ones that just, you know what I mean, and it's kind of like, it's almost like, when you're trying to diagnose someone, like on paper, you can talk all day long about the difference between autism and ADHD, or, like, what's bipolar and what's just, like, you know, a different thing, what is a narcissistic personality disorder, versus like, what's just a shitty human being? But like, those theoretical differences, like, it's that's a really different than looking at a human being that likely has, like, multiple overlapping factors in their life. So it's not as easy to pull apart, like it was bad and it shouldn't have happened, and therefore, I'm mad it happened, versus like it should have been better, but it's all there was. And I'm glad something worked, but it didn't work for every it's kind of like there's a bazillion things happening and there's not like a straight correlation.

    Heidi Smith 21:15

    Well, yeah, that, and that's what I think that that's why it's such a hard topic, because we can't pretend when you're trying to change somebody who's out of control, right? Like, let's go with the parent, somebody who's behaviorally out of control and then out of control with using substances. Like, that's not the same as treating somebody with a broken leg. Like, you know what I mean? Like you're dealing with somebody who actively has essentially a thought disorder. Like they they cannot, they're clearly not making correct decisions in their life, like they're and so it's like, ultimately, like, you know, even like the program you went to, it's like, the design kind of is to break your spirit. I mean, a little bit, it's like, and, I mean, no matter how much I feel like, you know, we've studied, you know, the process of change and human behavior, like that's not a perfect process, and so it's impossible to walk the line perfectly of balancing like unconditional positive regard for a person's autonomy and choices while they're suffering from a disease that's affecting their ability to make choices and their ability to think properly and to make proper choices for their own well being. And as much as I think, you know, we struggle with like, I think the political correctness of that, you know, of like, of how much are we allowed to intervene, you know, on someone's behalf, you know, it's just, it's a very hard industry, and I think we don't talk about that enough. Well,

    KC Davis 22:38

    what's ironic is that you'll see, like on social media, you know, an out of control teenager or, you know, like, I'll see a mom post, and you know that kid will swing on her, and the general feedback is like people criticizing the parent, and they say things like, you can't let him do that. You can't tolerate that. You can't stand for that. And what's always been interesting to me is like, the very thing they keep saying, like the parent needs to do, is very similar to what people often criticize facilities for doing, which is like, what do you all think that looks like to quote, unquote, not tolerate,

    Heidi Smith 23:17

    right? Like when you run a facility and like, one of the 16 year olds, like, spits in the face of the group facilitator. What are you supposed to do with

    KC Davis 23:25

    that? And it's that's not to say that we don't need like, we get it. We're a therapist. We understand the like, you know, all behaviors, communication, like, I know that you still have to manage the population, you still have to hold people accountable. You still have to, you know, address the straight up, like anti social behavior that happens. And I mean, I feel confident saying that as someone who exhibited a lot of that behavior, you know what I mean? But it's messy. And so that's a good way to put it. It is messy. And so here's the question that always gets posed to me when I talk about my experience in a teen industry is, what would you do? What will you do if one of your children needs treatment? And I just think that that's probably the most helpful question, because the reality is, like, there is no perfect solution out there, and even if there was, there wouldn't be a guarantee that it would work. So I just wanted to kind of talk, because, like, we're both parents, and we both have people in our life that we love, that are in recovery, and kind of, you know what, from our sort of, like, unique perspective of knowing how bad it can be, like, how we would navigate that system, absolutely, maybe an easy way to ask is like, start at The let's start at the beginning. Like, let's talk intervention, like that kind of realm, and tell me things that you like would and wouldn't do. So

    Heidi Smith 24:48

    I mean, the first thing, and again, this isn't going to apply to everybody, but I do think one mistake that I see is, I think there is a trend where families intervene. In too hard, too fast. So, I mean, that's one thing. I mean, I like, I've talked to, you know, my son's father, we've talked about this a lot, you know, like, we're only going to send, you know, hopefully we don't end there. But it's like, we're not going to do this whole sending him to treatment 10 times, you know what? I mean, like, if we're going to ever send him to treatment, we want to make sure he's willing and ready for it, you know? And it's like kind of hit a place of willingness and doneness. And so what I think happens is that there is a certain sect of parents that panic, you know, when their kids dabbling in drugs and they just immediately rip them out of school and throw them in treatment. I mean, that's one thing. And obviously there's a lot of nuances we'd have to, you know, you'd have to dive in as a professional to the whole story and everything. So, I mean, this is obviously, like, a very, very and

    KC Davis 25:45

    whether there's other, like, mental health issues with standing but yeah, the first time you catch Jared smoking weed at a Friday night football game, like, is not the time to, like, jump to an intervention, absolutely.

    Heidi Smith 25:56

    So I mean, that's honestly, like, where I would start kind of with your question is, like, making sure that, like, we appropriately intervene from the beginning with, like, the lowest and most appropriate level of care, if that makes sense. So I mean, I think one mistake that a lot of families make is is jumping the gun. And again, that would be very individual and specific for me to be able to kind of know who how that's happening, but I do see that, you know, so and it almost kind of blows your wad too soon, you know? I mean, it's like, you know, it kind of ruins the opportunity. So if you throw them and treat them when they're 16, then it's like, you kind of, I mean, then when they're 25 and they're really ready, it's like, well, now they have so much prejudice against treatment and so much hatred and trauma about treatment, it's like, and you kind of the money's

    KC Davis 26:45

    out. They know the game, yeah. So I'm curious if you think that there's like, because I think parents can make the opposite like, I totally agree with you. And I think some parents make the opposite mistake of, like, not intervening when they actually have like, the legal power to do so, yes, and you know, because sometimes you'll see parents, and it's like, they're coming to you, and the kids 19, and it's like, okay, this kid's been smoking crack since they were 15,

    Heidi Smith 27:12

    right? Like, geez, this would have been nice too.

    KC Davis 27:15

    Yeah, you like, you can't make this kid get mental health care anymore. And I do think that a lot of it to me, at least if I were to, and I know that's like, not helpful to be like, son, not too late, not too early. Don't get it wrong, or they'll fucking die. Get the timing right. Yeah. No, I think that there are some, like, tangible flags we could, like, lay down. Which one is like, I think the existence of mental health, especially if there are mental health issues that have predated substances Absolutely. Like, if you've had depression, anxiety, thought disorders, behavior disorders that predate the substances, like that would be a situation where I wouldn't wait, like, maybe they'll grow out of it, right?

    Heidi Smith 27:54

    Yeah? Like, that's a downward spiral that's probably not going to end well, you know, if we've already been struggling for years with other stuff. You know, that's gonna the escalation is gonna be significant. So, yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. And I also think

    KC Davis 28:09

    in if I had a daughter that I believed was at risk of being trafficked, which happened a lot, like if she's hanging out with 25 year olds, things like that. Like, I might actually pull the trigger on that, but I might some do some things first. Like, I might just move my family first. Like, that's another thing is, like, sometimes a kid does just need to be, like, put in a different situation, yeah? Like, taking a new Yeah, yeah. Like, I think there were some things even that I asked my like, I asked my parents to take me out of the private school that I was because I hated it I hated it. I wanted to go to the performing arts school. I wanted to and they really resisted a lot of those things. And I think obviously Hindsight is 2020 but like, I think there were ways that if I had been my parent, I think I would have listened a little more, like, who knows what could have been different if I could have gotten situated in a different peer group, in a different place, where I could have explored some passions, which I'm not saying, like, go super controlling about who they can and can't hang out with, because that always backfires. But like, I think, like before I sent my kid away to a like, long term residential treatment, or any treatment. I think the first thing I would do is move my family to a different state, like that would kind of be like, let's see if this, like, exhaust

    Heidi Smith 29:28

    all your options. I mean, there would be like, I mean, you definitely want to, you know, kind of like, climb the ladder of the options. I mean, to me, sending away is at the very top of the ladder, you know. So it's like, you know, like you said, I mean, yeah, do we need to move schools? Do we need to move, you know, cities? Do we need to move state? Do we need to, you know, remove ourselves from our current situation? Do we need to, you know, try this therapist. We need to try medication. Do we need, I mean, like, there's a million things you can do from home. And the nice thing is, is that these days is a lot more, I think. Because of this whole trouble teen industry, the idea of having case managers and kind of like in home social workers, has become much more accessible, like there's that's become its own industry of its own, where you can really hire a mentor, a case manager, who will get involved with your loved one while they're still living at home. You know, income and consultant, mentor and all of that. And so there's a lot of options now that are way outside, you know, above and beyond, having to remove them from the home. And so, I mean, I think that's and most of the professionals I work with are going to exhaust all those efforts, you know, especially someone who's under 18 before they send them out of

    KC Davis 30:39

    the home. And I think for any age, when you talk about, like, having an intervention and hiring an interventionist, I think that's fine. Like, I think it's fine to, like, want a third party that can, like, inform you about the industry and like, tell you about because the whole point is, like, some, like, every treatment center is going to tell you that they're the best treatment center, like they are sales people, literally, right? So like, be aware that when you're talking to a treatment center, and yes, they are going to make sure they meet criteria, and they will, you know, some places will say, like, Ah, they're not a good fit for us, but like, at the end of the day, they are sales people. And so like, I totally get and understand and think it's valid to go. I want someone to make a referral. I want someone to help us navigate this, but the thing that I would do is that if I was working with like a family manager or an interventionist or a case manager, I would ask specifically if that person gets any type of payment or like remuneration for referrals, meaning there are people. And this is really unethical, but it happens, who a treatment center will come to an interventionist and be like, Listen, you know, we'll pay you 1000 bucks for every person you refer to us. Yeah? And so, like, I would ask that outright. I mean, I know some people will lie, but I'd ask it.

    Heidi Smith 31:57

    Oh, yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's a baseline question for any kind of consultant, case manager, interventionist, it's like, are you on payroll of treatment centers, you know, are you getting kind of pay for play, you know, do you get, you know, and really asking them their process of how they do treatment placement, and, you know, have they, I mean, another one is, you know, a lot of, there's a whole kind of industry called education consultants, And so, you know, a lot of and therapeutic consultants, and so a lot of them will not refer to a program that they haven't visited in person. And so, I mean, I think there's a lot of criteria you can ask, like, if you know, how do you decide how you refer, you know, and what are your ethical boundaries around, you know, being paid for referrals and things like that. And I just, I don't think anything can beat. I mean, I guess this kind of just jump in the gun, even to placement of treatment, nothing can beat, you know, like individual conversations of people who have worked with that person or been to that treatment center, like there's Google reviews are all paid for. And, you know, that's all. I don't trust anything on Google, you know, I mean, and so the first thing I would do if I was going to work with an interventionist or a consultant, or work with or want to send my son to treatment, the first thing I would say is, can I speak to some current clients, some alumni? Can I speak to some families? You know, of current clients, moms and dads or families of alumni. I mean, that is one of my favorite things, is when I'm talking to a family and they ask for referrals, I think it's like, just the most raw, beautiful thing to ask, like, you know, what can I talk to another mom whose son is there? Absolutely, it's like, the smartest question you could ask me. You know, because

    KC Davis 33:41

    the thing about like, the online reviews is that if they're good, you'll never know if they're just paid for, and if they're bad, you never know if that's just a disgruntled client, like, who has, like, severe issues and like, the amount of clients that like because I held them accountable, or because I, like, refuse to allow them to, like, enact violence on someone, or because I wouldn't put up with their bullshit. Like, who will then turn around and be like, she is abusive, she's an incompetent counselor. I mean, like, obviously, that's how that goes. And so you don't really know how much of the criticism is just, sort of just gruntled ex clients, how much of it, or how much of it is real, and I almost trust,

    Heidi Smith 34:23

    I mean, when a treatment center has some bad reviews, I mean ones that just have 5005 star reviews, like, that's sketchy, you know. I mean, that's almost I'd rather have an authentic, you know, platform where it seems like people are, you know, are authentically leaving reviews. But, yeah, no, absolutely. And that's the hard thing is, you've got a lot of clients that are, you know, in the grips of addiction, you know, maybe they were kicked out, they were sent back to jail, you know, they lost relationships or whatever, and they're pissed.

    KC Davis 34:51

    I want a three star review, like, I want someone who can be like,

    Heidi Smith 34:55

    yeah, that was good. You know, there could have been some were better, but they were kind or, you know. So, yeah, absolutely.

    KC Davis 35:01

    So tell me what your like red flags would be if you were, like, interacting with a treatment center. So

    Heidi Smith 35:09

    I mean, one of my, and this may not be popular, one of my things that I would inform somebody about the treatment industry these days is that there are treatment centers that are owned by huge corporations. Like, you know, they're managed by, like, these big hedge fund conglomerates. I don't know all the right words, but you know, like, you know, money people, you know, our banks own them, basically, you know, and and then there's treatment centers that are still owned by individuals who are passionate about helping people. And so I can tell you hands down, if I had to send my son to treatment, I would send him to a program that was individually owned, you know, by a person, a couple, a family, you know, who was passionate about working and helping people, as opposed to a program that was owned by like a huge, a big conglomerate or corporation, and that may be controversial, and I'm not saying that those programs can't provide good treatment. I You're asking me what I would look at for my son, you know, I would go to more of kind of a private, individually owned, smaller program. So I don't know what your thoughts are on that Casey, but so

    KC Davis 36:23

    yeah, I think I mostly agree with you. I might even try to, like, ferret out like a third option of, like, a non profit owned, yeah, or, like a foundation owned, which there are fewer of those, only because, in my mind, like the downside to the ones that are owned by the hedge funds it's like, usually what happens is, they come along, they either start it up or they buy it from somebody else, and they gut it and they streamline it. And everything is about efficiency. Everything is about the bottom line, and they lose a lot of like, good treatment that way. So, like, that would be my hesitation of why I wouldn't want to do that. For that reason. I think it is better to get an individually owned or family owned place, but I think that I would still have my own personal like, I want to know, like, what's their deal? What's your philosophy? What's their deal? What's your philosophy, you know, and if you're the owner, it's like, what's your involvement? Like, I want to know that the people who are mostly making clinical decisions are, like, licensed clinical practitioners. They're therapists, their social workers, things like that, like,

    Heidi Smith 37:25

    are you state licensed? Are you accreditation body? I mean, there's, yeah. I mean, there's definitely questions you can ask. I want that to make there's accountability, you know, there's, you know, people don't even know to ask that kind of stuff. So, yeah, what are the licenses of your counselors, organizations do you belong to? What accrediting bodies or provide oversight? What, what city, county and state, you know, licenses do you have? You know, what kind of inspections does your facility have? All of that, you know. So I think I mean, and it's a lot, but, yeah, absolutely, because you don't want it to be too much of a mom and pop program too, you know, like a legit program that's that's well run. So I think that finding that balance is important. I

    KC Davis 38:12

    think what is helpful to do in those cases of when you're talking to someone is, I always think asking to see their policy or asking what their policy is. So it's like, what's your policy when you know there's a relapse? What's your policy if there's like, because I don't want someone who's like, oh yeah, what we do is like, I want someone who can be like, well, here is like, on paper. Show you like, what happens, or, you know, what happens if there's a fire in the building? Like, what do you do with the clients? What happens if they run what happens if you know whatever, like, I would want to know those things. I also if it was a child, like, one of the things that happened when I was in treatment was that there was about six months where they wouldn't allow me to talk to my family. Oh, God. And they convinced my family that that's what was best for me. And here's the thing, this one's hard because, like, I have occasionally gotten clients where the family was so toxic, you genuinely felt as though, like this person is going to be better without the influence of their family. But as a parent, I would never allow a facility to block access to me from my child or vice versa,

    Heidi Smith 39:17

    and as much as like and the truth, I've kind of gone full circle with that. I mean, I've been in this industry for over 20 years and I mean, again, like, there's actually, I mean, therapeutically, I think that's beneficial a lot of times, to have separation and communication. I think a lot of times the client's toxic for the family, and the client is, you know, bullying the family and screaming at them and being really emotionally and verbally abusive and terrorizing them. And there's all kinds of like, legitimate reasons why I think not communicating would be like a great therapeutic intervention, but in this day and age, I just don't think it's an approach. It's an appropriate thing to do for longer than a couple weeks. I mean, like, there's no way that I would send my son to a treatment center that didn't let me regularly. At least once a week, right? Like, have just, are you okay? Are you being fed? Are you, I mean, are you safe? Do you feel okay? Do you need anything? I understand that, like, you've got to submit to kind of the treatment program and all of that. But, yeah, having that level of isolation, I just, I've come full circle with that, and I'm just not on board with it. I just don't think you can do that.

    KC Davis 40:22

    Yeah, speaking of isolation, I think one thing that I would ask is that I would ask the clinical like, what are your interventions, in terms of, like, do you use behavior contracts? Like, do you use isolation? Do you use like, I'm trying to think of the best way to put this, like, I don't want there to be a situation where someone's deciding, like, the therapeutic move here is that, like, we're not going to allow anyone to talk to you, right?

    Heidi Smith 40:52

    Like we're going to alienate you and make you sit at a table by yourself for a week and no one can talk to you. Or, yeah,

    KC Davis 40:58

    I'm not into that. I'm not into that. Like, I want it to be clinical and professional, and I'm fine with people being very, you know, they don't, they don't need to, like, talk all fancy, like, if you need to tell my, you know, kid, they're full of shit, great. But like, I'm not down with any of that weird or,

    Heidi Smith 41:17

    like, some psychotherapeutic and psycho dynamic and psycho dramatic interventions, right? Like, I think, think there's a place for doing some really, like, interesting therapeutic work that involves, like, hey, let's have a funeral for your, like, ego. Or, you know, like, I mean, death can be great, but, like, when it crosses over into alienation and isolation, yeah, I mean, and, I mean, most states, I'll have clear guidelines about that too. I mean, that's, you know, like, you know, when you have a state license. I mean, there's very clear cut guidelines about that stuff, but, but it is, I mean, and that's where, like, I get it, like, kind of, as a clinician who likes psychodynamic therapeutic interventions, like, I see both sides of it, I get that kind of 70s Gestalt, you know, kind of, like, I don't know, like, kind of being able to create experiences for somebody, you know, that carry

    KC Davis 42:09

    this rock around and you're not allowed to put it down. And then we'll talk about how you won't let go of things like,

    Heidi Smith 42:14

    like, put the bricks in your backpack and don't talk, you know, all that. I mean, I can get with it, you know. But like, there's just a certain point at which there's, there's lines you just can't cross. There just are, I mean, there's just lines you can't cross. And sometimes it kind of sucks as a therapist to be like, Man, that would be really powerful if we could do that. And the rest of the team's just like, Yeah, but we can't. Like, we can't,

    KC Davis 42:35

    yeah, my thing about those, like, kind of creative things. And another example would be, like, there's a facility out in Montana that has, like, a ropes course that they make you do blind, and it's all about, like, letting go of control, like, I'm talking about, like, kind of, like, weird, creative stuff like that, right? I think some other examples were, like, carrying the rock around, putting the brick in your backpack, you know, having to write everything down in a notebook before you say it out loud, like, all that kind of stuff. I think for me, it really comes down to two things, and like, one is time limit and the other is consent. Yes, absolutely. Like, I think if you want to do something like hippy dippy, like that, as a clinician, I'm okay with 48 hours of that, and I'm okay if my child says, Yes, I will do this. I'm willing to do this to see what it looks like. And I think if

    Heidi Smith 43:21

    it's a minor, obviously the parents have to be on board too. And I would add to it is their humiliation involved. You know, that's like that old school, right? Like, where you even, I think, on some movies about treatment, where the person's having to wear like, a sign around their neck that says, like, Don't speak to me, or, you know, like, you know, that kind of stuff. Like, when it involves humiliation, I think that's where you start walking that fine line. And again, I completely agree. It's like, that's where there's consent involved. There's it's just that stuff has to be handled very, very, very carefully,

    KC Davis 43:51

    basically, like anything outside of just talking, yeah,

    Heidi Smith 43:55

    and I love that stuff. I mean, that's like, the thing, and that's that part of me that's like, ah, you know, like, when I watch these exposes and stuff like, and they're talking about things they did as the other part of me is like, I think I know what the team was trying to do. You know what I mean? And I get that when they're describing it, it sounds so abusive. But like, from my perspective, I'm like, I think they were trying to, like, do this therapeutic intervention, and it just fell flat, and again, ended up being really abused or but like, there's part of me that really can see both sides. So

    KC Davis 44:26

    I mean, listen when I talk about how in treatment, I was made to write down on newspaper, like, all the things I wouldn't let go of, like friends and drugs and art, like images and whatever, like things about, like, a drug subculture, and put it in a big trash bag, and I had to carry it around with me. And then they put, like bricks and balls in it, so it was heavy and big, and I wasn't allowed to put it down. And the whole shtick was like, you know, it's gonna be hard for you to, like, move throughout the day, but this is, like, a representation of, like, all. This stuff you're carrying around with you that you won't let go of, that's really hindering you. And, like, I don't necessarily, like, have an issue with that. Conceptually, the problem was I was not given a choice. Yeah, I was given that as a punishment for having been caught cheating on schoolwork. I was not given a choice, and they made me carry it for six months, oh gosh. Like, oh my gosh, even on like, family visitor day, where I was, like, humiliated because I was like, the girl with the trash bag, yeah, never could I put it down during meals, when I slept, it was in the bed with me. Like, I think that is what made that traumatic and humiliating and not a creative, interesting experience that really could have stretched and grown or whatever. I just think you can't force that stuff on people as much as you want to. Absolutely,

    Heidi Smith 45:47

    it's such a good way to put it. I mean, six months is crazy, yeah. I mean, the other thing you know that I would say is really considering you know whether you need gender specific treatment. If I had a daughter, I think, you know, if I had a 22 year old daughter that I needed to send a treatment like I'd probably want to send her to a women's only program. And maybe I have some personal bias or whatever, you know, to unpack there. But I mean, that's just for just kind of and just I don't know. I just know too much. I just know. I know what happens at co ed programs a lot of times, if they're not run, I mean, extremely well. I mean, I think you can pull off good co Ed treatment if you have, I mean, if you're, you know, that's the other thing I would ask. It's like, if it's a co Ed facility, like, how are we, you know, protecting, you know, from frat organization, because otherwise that will become the entire purpose of the client's existence is just to figure out how to date and treatment, and it's just kind of a waste. So

    KC Davis 46:53

    I also think, like a big thing for me, would be asking about how trauma informed the approaches, and I would want a really specific answer to that, like, I wouldn't want, like, a vague answer. I would want to know how they identify trauma, how they assess for trauma, how they treat trauma. Because, like, there just isn't, there just isn't going to be hardly anyone seeking out, like, addiction treatment that doesn't also have trauma, and I think that part of the things that I've seen turn like unethical or abusive. Sometimes they do so because someone is just genuinely trying to be abusive because they're a bad person, but oftentimes it is more a result of like, either a clinician or a non clinical staff, like kind of going off the rails and not being trauma informed, not having an appreciation for what trauma is, or understanding trauma. I also, and I know people are going to call me snobby for this, but I want to know what level of licensure the clinical staff has, because I know it takes an associate's degree and some studying to have, like, a chemical dependency licensure in a lot of states, and I just wouldn't send and I'm not saying that there aren't people out there that have that that are kick ass clinicians. I'm just saying, if I don't know you, I want someone that has a graduate degree. I want someone with a master's level clinical degree? Yeah,

    Heidi Smith 48:23

    absolutely. I mean, we used to joke, there's some, you know, licensures out there, that it's like, it all it takes to get is two proofs of purchase and a letter from your mom, you know. And it's, you know, like, it's like, you'd like to know that the person has some education, some experience and but, you know, I can't be missed, even when you just said, some people might call you snobby, like just I think it's important even this whole conversation. It's not lost on me that this whole conversation is assuming their privilege. You know what? I mean, that like that we have the people we're speaking to have choices about the treatment center that they send their child to, you know, and that they're going to be able to be real picky, and that they're going to be able to be able to call and interview and ask all these questions and like, you know, it's sad that mean a lot of people just they're going to have to go to the program that's a network with their insurance, or they have to go to the program that's free and covered by the state. And so I just want to acknowledge that I don't have even have a solution to it, but I just want to acknowledge that the idea that somebody can be so picky and have all these questions and all these interview questions and all these criteria is assuming some level of privilege, you know, that you're going to have really kind of the pick of the litter, you know, and choices where you send your child and, you know, maybe you can send them out of state, and maybe you can afford to private pay and like, you can do all these things where a lot of people don't have those choices. Yeah,

    KC Davis 49:42

    and I think that's it's important to acknowledge, and it's important to acknowledge that, like, there are very few nevers like, Honestly, the only never on my list is that I would never, ever, ever send a client to a wilderness treatment center that's like, one of my never. Like. If I had to choose between wilderness or nothing, I would choose nothing. And that's saying something, because I don't think if you asked me, like, should you send your kid to the place that's like, you know, I don't know, Bill in their P tests, if that's truly the only option, I'd be like, Yeah, send them right? Like, I would send someone to a shitty place, if the option was a shitty place or nothing, because at least there's going to be some exposure to some recovery language, recovery concepts, recovery world, so that you know, they would know kind of how or when to reach out to those types of people. And I even know that people talk about, like, oh, we sent my sister away. She came back worse. Or, like, I went to treatment and learned about how to do harder drugs. I don't necessarily, I mean, again, like you said at the beginning, like, if you've jumped the gun way too early, and you just, like, have a kid that's smoking pot. Like, yeah, that could happen. But I know for me, like, I mean, I was hanging out with people that were, like, smoking crystal meth, like I wasn't, like, learning about hard drugs in rehab. Like, wasn't really, it's not like I wasn't learning about them anyways, like I was going to learn about them. I was hanging out with people doing those drugs,

    Heidi Smith 51:16

    I would say nine times out of 10 when it's a manipulation that, you know, a kid calls their mom and dad on their Sunday phone call and whispers in the phone and says, there's all these big bad guys here that are teaching me more about drugs than I ever knew. Usually, like, that's a that's attempt to get Mom and Dad scared, you know, and get them to pull you out of treatment. But I mean that again, that's, there's some bias there, but, but, yeah, like you said, I mean, you don't land yourself there, you know, because you're like, innocent snowflake, you know. And so that's usually a technique that I see. You know, guys in my program, and programs I've worked in use to scare mom and dad into bringing them home,

    KC Davis 51:56

    yeah. And I do think that's why, like, I want to have my kid assessed by a therapist or someone before I ask someone who is related to a treatment center, do you think they need treatment?

    Heidi Smith 52:10

    Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, unfortunately, it's like, yeah, as we're talking about this. I mean, I keep being reminded of like that. I mean, if you have resources. I mean, in a lot of ways, you do get what you pay for, you know, like, when I think hiring an education consultant or a therapeutic consultant, like, can be very valuable, you know, to help like that out and get, like, really good testing, you know, like, and get really good assessments, and, you know, and really, like, find the right fit. And, you know, based on their trauma and based on this, do they need gender specific? Do they need, you know? And there's amazing resources out there for that. It's just not something everybody can access. So, but yeah, I'm trying to think what else would be a big part of what I would ask, yeah, I'd be real curious, too, about medication management. We get a lot of guys that come, what I would call, like, out of shitty treatment centers that it's astounding, like the mismanagement of medication, like they show up and they're put on like, seven different psychiatric medications that don't even make sense, you know, they're like, a 30 day treatment, and they leave with, Like, you know, seven prescriptions for just an outrageous combination of medications. So I would say that would be another huge thing that I would kind of be on the lookout for, is, you know what their philosophy is around that,

    KC Davis 53:32

    I think also on the topic of medication, one of my like, that's one of my big ones, is like, if they're over medicating, which I know is kind of hard to ask, but just asking about medication in general. But another flag for me is if they have medications that they and I'm not talking about like a sober living or a place where, like, that client's gonna, like, have their medication on them, but like a place where they're handling medications, if they have, like, an automatic No, like, medications that a person is on, that's honestly a red flag for me, and I know that that's hard, because a lot of places have it, but like, a lot of the places that I worked, it was like, Yeah, we don't allow Adderall. You can't take your Adderall here. And as someone who has, like, a late diagnosis ADHD that just wouldn't fly. Like, you're not taking my child off the medication that they need. Oh, yeah, because you're afraid that they're, you know, it's gonna get whatever or like, if when you have chronic pain patients, when you have ADHD medication, like, I also, personally would want a place that is open to medication managed recovery if somebody's on opiates, like, I don't want a place that's religious in their abstinence. Like, I don't want them like zealous about, like, Oh, we're abstinence only, meaning, you know, no medications or only certain types of. Occasions, or you can't be on Suboxone or methadone, or any of that kind of stuff.

    Heidi Smith 55:04

    Yeah, it's like, it's the idea that, like, we have a box that all the clients have to fit into, versus, like, Hey, we're going to be individualized enough to kind of build a box around each specific client to what makes sense to them. And I think that's a lot of you know, and I think at the same time, like, I think, you know, owners of treatment centers like, have the autonomy to have their philosophy, and they get to have, you know, their way of doing treatment, you know, obviously, if it's ethical. But I also think that, like you said, I mean, I think making sure that you ask those questions, and if somebody that that's like, there's your sign, you know what? I mean, if they're like, Oh, well, you can't take Adderall here, it's like, well, clearly this isn't the right place for my child or, you know, but I do, I think that's also, I mean, I do think it's a red flag of like, of really being able to realize, especially when you're working with adolescents and people with dual diagnosis, you know, it people are really close minded to like their one philosophy, you know, and that you have to fit inside this very specific box, and that's just information that it may not be the best place for you or your child.

    KC Davis 56:06

    And I also think that it would behoove people to ask about like, whether they use 12 step, whether there is like, spirituality or religion, not because I think that there's like one right answer, but because I think if you feel strongly about those things, I don't think you want to accidentally discover that, like they're talking about God,

    Heidi Smith 56:25

    yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, I think that's why, like, it's very important for families like to take their value system and find the program that fits for them, you know. I mean, I know my parents, you know, were conservative Christians, and you know, if they had looked at a treatment center for me or my sister, like it would have been very important for them to find a program that was not it minimum wasn't working against their Christian value system, you know, like, I just know them, I know they wouldn't have wanted to send us to some kind of, like spiritual Why can't I think of it, you Know, Like witch doctor place in like Santa Fe I'm not maybe, you know, like, where there's like, shamans, and you know, that wouldn't have worked for my parents. My parents would have been petrified and terrified that, you know, whereas another family, you know, that might be exactly what they want. And so it's like, yeah, it's just knowing, like, based on your value systems, like, what questions do you need to ask?

    KC Davis 57:19

    So Well, I think that is, I could have, like, a more comprehensive or easier checklist, but I think that that's a pretty good summary. The Heidi, thank you so much for the time. And do you want to plug yourself and your place? If anybody is looking for somewhere? Oh, sure.

    Heidi Smith 57:35

    I mean, you know, we're in Dallas, and our program is called chapter house. Our website is chapter house recovery.com. We work with young adult men, and you know, even if that's not what you need, I'm always happy to be a resource. You know, for anyone, especially in Texas, that's looking for treatment or has questions about sending their children to treatment, you can always email me. My email is on our website. You

Christy Haussler
126: Your Sensory Health Matters with Virginia Spielmann, Ph.D.

Sensory health goes far beyond discomfort with a scratchy fabric or loud noises. If you are not familiar with sensory health, this episode will be full of new concepts and revelations for you. You WILL realize how important sensory health is for each of us! My guest is Virginia Spielmann, an occupational therapist who did a TEDx Talk on this topic. She explains sensory health, why it’s important, and how it matters in every area of life. Join us to learn more!

Show Highlights:

  • Virginia’s background and journey to her work today

  • Sensory health: “how” we feel, what we do with it, and why it connects to everything about our psychological well-being

  • Understanding sensory health as the bridge between mental and physical health

  • Active lifestyles and exercise don’t look the same for everyone.

  • Differences in sensory processing

  • How we unintentionally gaslight our kids’ sensory reactions

  • The importance of being curious as a parent

  • Finding a balance between accommodating and exposure/growth

  • Understanding systematic desensitization

  • Comfort AND challenge—not comfort OR challenge

  • The #1 intervention for improved mental health? Dance and other forms of big play

  • An overview of the STAR Institute’s programs, services, and events

Resources and Links:

Connect with Virginia Spielmann and the STAR Institute: Website and TEDx Talk

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:04

    Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle. Care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and today I have Virginia Spielman in the recording studio with me. She did a TED talk called your sensory health matters. Here's why, Virginia, thank you so much for being here.

    Virginia Spielmann 0:19

    Such a pleasure. Thank you so much, of course. So before

    KC Davis 0:24

    we get into I have so many questions. My first question is like, what do you mean by sensory health? But even before we get to the first question, why don't you tell us why this is an area of interest and a little bit of your background. I

    Virginia Spielmann 0:38

    am British occupational therapist by training? Well, I wasn't trained to be British, I guess I was, but I started in my journey in the UK, and very quickly within the field of occupational therapy, found this specialist area about sensory integration, which is really simply put, the science of how we feel, what we feel, and then what we do with it. And it's connected to everything. It's this bizarre piece of information that should be common knowledge, and yet it has this sort of strange mystery about it. I suppose people who are neurodivergent often have differences in how they feel and what they feel and what they do with it. And of course, it varies tremendously from person to person anyway, irrespective of where you fall in the bell curve. So it was something I discovered very early in my journey as an occupational therapist, and captured my fascination and attention. I so I studied at undergraduate level, did my dissertation on it and looked at it, have looked at it since then, sort of studied it since then, and my masters, my PhD, yeah, and it's still slightly shrouded in mystery. You know, we still only get taught about five senses at school, and it's just a huge part of psychological well being. There's, it's hard to find aspects of life that aren't touched by this, and it's so poorly understood. So it's captured my fascination for a long time. Of course, it's not just cognitive, though. It's also because I am neurodivergent. I discovered a few years ago, much to many people's complete, unsurprised and differences myself in how I sense and feel things. And so you sort of start off thinking interesting and academic and intellectual, and then you go, well, it's also about me. I'm learning about me. So, yeah, that's sort of a journey of self discovery buried in there somewhere as well.

    KC Davis 3:01

    I feel like we're always the last person to be surprised by discovering that we're neurodivergent in some way. And I like when you talked about you had this small reference just then where you said, and you know, it's not just neurodivergent people, like everyone can experience, sort of like a range of the way that they interact with their senses. And I always find it helpful to like keep reminding especially audiences, that like, the point of the term like neurodiversity isn't that there's this like, hard line between like, neurodivergent people and neurotypical people, but that like within the realm of just peopleing, it's normal for even a quote, unquote, neurotypical person, or, let's just say, like a non autistic, non ADHD person, to have differences in a spectrum of how they experience the world from a sensory perspective. And I think that that is you're kind of one of the first people that I've heard talk about that to a broader audience, other than just, you know, someone who's neuro divergent. And so let's start there. Like, what do you consider sensory health?

    Virginia Spielmann 4:16

    Yeah, I love everything you just said, I mean, and also remembering that the spectrum is, you know, not a linear it's not a binary line from black to white with it's this three dimensional spectrum of, you know, color and variation. And you know what we sort of have, of course, you know, reduced how we view being human down. It's we have this very reductive perception, and we have this idea that there's one right way to be human, and there's, do you know, I just it's probably the worst quote in the world, but it always pops in my head Morgan Freeman in that awful Robin Hood movie with. Evan Costner, and the child calls to him, why did God paint your face? And he says, Because Allah loves wondrous variety. And for some reason that stuck with me as just very profound statement. And you know, it's a beautiful thing about being human, that we are so different and we show up so differently, and we perceive things so differently, and yet we're always looking for the binary, even with health, right? We can have a one dimensional view of health, or maybe, you know, we are very evolved, and we think about physical health and mental health, which, you know, is still an argument and shouldn't be. But then you have this other aspect of how we feel, and I feel there's something about sensory health that is has huge overlap with embodiment. And you know, this drive to be in our bodies again, connect to the wisdom of our bodies, and the idea that, well, we can't just learn things in our brain. We need to have embodied experiences of things to really master them. There's that sensory piece for me, and it really almost bridges between mental health and physical health. This how we feel, what we feel, what we do in response to it. Sensory health is optimizing the processes that help you make sense of your day to day, make sense of what you sense. Make sense of your relationships. Make sense of moving around in space and in childhood, and I mean, in adulthood, hopefully we've mastered that a bit more, some of us, more than others. Well, it's

    KC Davis 6:38

    interesting. I feel like my met this age where my doctor is like, hey, like, if you've never really been like, a super active person, like a physically active person, he's like, now is the age where I need you to become one like this will be really important for your health, going your physical health, going forward. And one of the things that I've been thinking about my, like, lifelong hatred of exercise is that, like a lot of that is kind of a sensory aversion, like I am very temperature sensitive. I don't regulate heat very well. Once I get hot, it takes me a very, very long time to cool down. Like my husband laughs because I sleep on we have to have like a mattress cooler that circulates like 50 degree water underneath me. Otherwise, the body heat between my body and the mattress wakes me up. And listen, I've had like hormones tested. It's not like a hormone problem, but you know, for me, it's always like sweating and being hot and the feeling of movement when you're like, moving in an uncomfortable manner. I always used to joke that, like, exercise combines the three things I hate the most, which is being hot, being sweaty and being like, no, it's being hot, being bored and being in pain. Oh, no. Like, how can anyone like this? But I just think it's interesting that number one, when we think about physical activity, like our brain always just goes to exercise, and that's like one specific thing, right? But it occurs to me that perhaps I should be approaching this idea of like moving through space and moving one's body more from or with care to a sensory health perspective, and whether that could kind of change my approach. And I'm curious if you have thoughts on that

    Virginia Spielmann 8:23

    totally as you started sharing. You know, I have a kind of be in my bonnet about the way we think about exercise anyway, because we do tend to have a few formulaic approaches to healthy, active lifestyles that don't mesh with everybody. You know, a lot of neurodivergent people have resistance to exercise. And you know, any sort of heavy cardio load can be really detrimental to them. And you know, there's this excellent sort of trifecta that often accompanies neurodivergence, which is, is hypermobile Ehlers, danlos, mast cell activation syndrome and Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, or just under this umbrella term dysautonomia. And so, you know, there are reasons beyond it doesn't feel good that some we all need to find the activity, the active lifestyle ingredients that suit us. And so having nuance in these conversations is really, really helpful. You know, strength, focusing on strength, walking. You know, do there's ways and ways of doing Pilates and yoga and different things that don't cause distress and disorder, sensations of being disorganized and actually almost in conflict in your own body. And so adding, diversifying the way we think about what an active lifestyle looks like, you know, becomes really important, but there's still this. Thrive in research and research driven conversations to find the one right answer. We found it. We found what you need to do. Everybody benefits from this much cardio every day. Everybody benefits from, you know, and we've heard a million versions of that statement as the, you know, pop culture or the main media outlets try to report what research is looking at, but there's always this urge to oversimplify, and I think, freedom to discover a million different ways that your active lifestyle could look, you know, it's gonna benefit everybody.

    KC Davis 10:48

    And you talk in your Ted, talk about how, you know, okay, so, yes, it's a diversity, but you can kind of fall on that spectrum, in a place that we would consider like a disordered way of sensory processing where, you know, it's not just, hey, there are certain things that feel good to me, certain things that irritate me, like, Oh, I'm a little sound sensitive. But like some people, can really have a difference in sensory processing that massively impacts their daily functioning. And I'm curious if you can talk about that for a little bit, because you would think like, oh, it'd be obvious if you knew that that's what was going on. But in my experience, it's not always obvious to people. Like, I'll be talking to someone about why they're struggling with cleaning, or why they're struggling with hygiene, and no one's ever really stopped to give them the permission to say, like, what is it about a shower that you hate and that you always procrastinate and after and they have to think about it for a while. And what's funny, it's like, you'll get people that'll say, oh, it's kind of boring, or there's too many steps, or, you know, I just it's like, I don't have enough time, so I have to choose that or eating. But there's always a subsection of people that will say things like the temperature change between being hot in the shower and being cold afterwards is so miserable, or the feeling of my hair being wet against my skin makes me want to crawl out of my skin. And these are big reactions, but it's like no one's ever given them permission to actually get curious about what the aversion is and legitimize the aversion. Because, you know, I think probably most of us had that experience of being a kid and being like, Oh, my shoes uncomfortable, and you're in, you know, a parent being like, get over it. Okay. Just we have to go. So talk to me for a minute about like, how might somebody maybe even recognize, like, Oh, wait. You mean everyone isn't feeling it like this, right?

    Virginia Spielmann 12:46

    Well, I think, you know, you hit on a lot of things there. You know, first of all, I would say there is, or I don't want to use the word spectrum, but you know, there is this. You could think of it as a progression, I suppose, of differences in sensory integration and processing. Like we all experience sensation uniquely and similarly. And then there are some people whose experience is quite noticeably different, if you know what you're looking for, but can be accommodated within the environment with a bit of flexibility, with some strategies they find adaptive ways of coping. And then there are people for whom it really is a physical difference in their body that sort of influences many, many other aspects of well being, so very, very much wired to your emotional well being. And it's always going to be that way, and really they need very specialist supports. And then I would say there's even another layer of people who have such profound differences in sensory integration and processing that it's experienced as a profound physical disability all the time, every day. And to say it's not is really doing that population a disservice. But you know, some people, for some people, touch is painful, light touch is painful, but they've been told, you know, not to reject their grandma's kisses. And you know, like you said, like as children, we tend to have a sort of, oh, you're fine, just get on with it, attitude. And so the way we learn about what's painful and what's not is generally in those relationships with our caregivers in childhood, right? So as an infant, your stomach gurgles, you get a look of terror on your face, but your caregiver says it's okay. It's just your stomach. It's just your stomach, right? And you start to go, okay. That's what this sensation means. And then you know how adults tend to react when children get a very obvious injury. Oh, no, look. Oh owie. And they blow on it. And. They nurture it, and then you go, Oh, this is, this is a serious thing. I did need attention for this, right? You start to get coded in the database in a very specific and sensory is something we tend to gaslight a bit out of our kids, you know, like even temperatures as a you know, it's hard for caregivers to realize just because I'm cold. My child might not be, you know. And so we tell them to wear a coat based on how we feel temperature. We tell them to put the shoes on, because we know those shoes aren't going to harm them, but their nervous system might be saying, you know, DEF CON one, these shoes are a nightmare. We can't have these on all day, because it's going to feel like our feet are being damaged for the entire day, right? And then I'm going to spend the day in a state of DEF CON one. But I won't know that this is a unique experience to me, because you haven't told me that. Nobody's told me that, and so we tend to internalize that kind of gas lighting. It's unintentional, it's well meaning, and it goes into our into our reference book for safe, unsafe. You know, until someone, like an occupational therapist, hopefully, sort of digs into it and you realize, Wait, every time someone brushes past you in the cafeteria, you experience it as pain. That's pretty significant. This nine year old child who's been told you're a problem child and you have behavioral difficulties, we don't want you experiencing pain just to get your lunch. Let's, let's take a problem solving approach to this. Now imagine nine years of just thinking I have this, like, weird, defunct body, it's harder to be in space, and I'm failing. I'm just failing all the time. You know,

    KC Davis 16:50

    it gets a weakness. Everybody else is just stronger than me, or everybody else is tougher than me, and I think it's hard as a parent, because in some ways, like you said, like it's our job to right size their feelings for them, so I don't want to overreact to every maybe tiny little boo boo, so that they get the impression that it's a huge deal every time, right? But it's can be difficult as a parent to know, okay, what is the right size to react to this too, because, you know, we want our kids to have resilience, and we want our kids to have some measure of toughness and not be afraid of challenge and not be afraid of discomfort. But how you balance that?

    Virginia Spielmann 17:32

    Yeah, I think one of the main things there, though, that you really nailed it, just not sure you realized you did, but it's like your perception of the size of the problem, or the thing, isn't it actually in this moment, and so pausing and being curious so that you can be the detective who helps figure out, whoa, that does feel really bad for your body, doesn't it? Okay? Now we learn something about your body, or, you know, those sorts of things. And so having that moment of curiosity first, and I remember, you know, being a young parent. My kids are older now, you know, and realizing that when my son fell over, I needed to pause before rushing in to soothe, which communicated to him, oh my gosh, this is a potential catastrophe, and I needed to sort of see how he's going to react first. And I wish I'd known this about food as a young parent, right? Like, that's a huge one from a sensory perspective. And our second child we adopted and had been in an institution for the first 10 months. And, you know, when came home, he came home with this binder of his favorite foods, his schedule, all of these different things. I was in this mode of doing this perfectly. I was going to do this perfectly, and so I was going to follow the schedule. We're going to get his favorite foods. And I went, you know, above and beyond, and then I learned, I realized, but it took me a minute, this wasn't actually his schedule at all. It was the schedule of the sort of Ward he had lived in. And these weren't even his favorite foods. They were just what had been available in the ward, and he didn't like any of it. It was all off whack and spat out the food and all these things and but my drive was to very primitive sort of, I must feed him. I must keep him alive. I must. And so I had no sympathy, I had no curiosity for this infant. I wasn't able. It took me a bit too long. It took me a beat too long, and there are things I wish I hadn't felt the pressure to do, like get X amount of calories in him come hell or high water, right? And instead be curious and believe him when he gags, believe his body when it says, No, mate, that's. Not for me, you know. And then be curious, and then find the thing, do the thing, collaborate with him to figure out his foods.

    KC Davis 20:08

    I'm curious. As an occupational therapist, how do you think about the balance between I know they're not opposing, right, but this sort of balance between accommodating and sort of exposure and growth,

    Virginia Spielmann 20:25

    such an amazing and timely question. I cannot tell you. This is a huge debate within our field at the moment. You know, what is neuro diversity affirming practice as an OT do and when you want, if you're doing anything habilitative or sort of, you know, that might be called intervention or treatment. Is it that oppressive? Are you trying to change a person's neurology? And this is, I think, particularly star Institute, the nonprofit here that in Colorado that I run, and where we work on sensory health. It's something we almost talk about every week. But here's where we're at, all the accommodations. Take all the accommodations and really try and build flexibility into the world of each individual, because it benefits everyone. It benefits everyone in the classroom when there are standing desk options, when there are noise defenders and music options and chewing options. You know, we allow these things in adult learning, but not in our childhood learning settings. It's very strange, but it benefits everyone when we support bodies being in different states of arousal and try to optimize learning environment with a sensory health lens. It's good news. It doesn't just even benefit all the students. It benefits every body in that building. And your brain changes when you learn a new phone number. You know brain change is neuroplasticity is available all the way through the life. It's how we learn new skills. It's how we mature. And when there is this massive mismatch with the way, especially our childhood experiences and environments have been constructed and what neurodivergent bodies need, then there's a need for intervention. But the intervention is that experience isn't going to be organizing for this child, so we're going to provide a specialist experience, and we're going to try and create repeated multitude of experiences where this child, like has, develops mastery, develops bodily autonomy, learns they can move through space on their own terms without it being painful and uncomfortable. You know, they can cause effect in their body and in the world, and they can experience agency, and agency starts in the body. And if I just provide a child with accommodations in the most extreme form I would be putting infants in wheelchairs and depriving them of the learning to walk and become ambulant. Right? There's this very extreme version of accommodations that deprives people of the organized, nurturing, nourishing experiences they need to have optimal sensory health, bodily autonomy, motor mastery. So the philosophy behind what you do is kind of the drive there is, am I taking this approach and trying to make someone more fit in more Am I trying to help them be more appropriate. Am I trying to shape their behaviors? That's all my agenda. But if I'm about helping this person become their favorite selves in the world and develop as much bodily autonomy as they can and with listen to the wisdom of their own body, then the type of intervention I'm doing is very different, and it's, it's, it moves in a very different direction. And on top of all of that, there is this myth that sensory integration therapy is the same as systematic desensitization, and they're completely different approaches.

    KC Davis 24:19

    Okay, talk about that, because I've never heard of either of those, but I have a feeling that if you started to talk about it, I would probably recognize what you're talking about.

    Virginia Spielmann 24:27

    Yes, there's nothing. Actually, I haven't got a beef with systematic desensitization itself. I think when it's done by a trauma informed, very skilled therapist and the client has self selected to do it, it can be great. And so, you know, if I wanted to, I can't swim in the sea because I have a huge phobia of I can't see what's underneath me. There is definitely a shark that's going to eat me. And if I wanted to deal with that, if it was really important. Uh, for me and I chose to do some systematic desensitization. We would gradually expose me to the thing that I have this big nervous system reaction to, and at the same time expose me to some things that would calm and soothe my body. And we try and do it at such a pace it almost wouldn't trigger my fear response. It

    KC Davis 25:24

    kind of keeps you in that window of tolerance. Yeah,

    Virginia Spielmann 25:27

    and I don't know that many occupational therapists do it. I think it's normally psychologists and people like that that do it. And so the idea there, yeah, desensitization is this gradual exposure to sensory stimuli, and so it is aiming to change what's happening in your neurology and your nervous system. It operates on the principles of habituation, which is the nervous system's ability to diminish responses to stimuli that's familiar and non threatening. So you know, the first time the buzzy bee comes into your space, you orient to it. You have a little bit of a protective reaction to it, like, is this a bee or a fly? Am I about to get stung, or is this just an irritant? And then for some people, they are able to notice it's something innocuous, and almost immediately filter it out. They habituate to it very easily, and then they selectively attend to the important stimuli in the room. People with differences in sensory modulation might not ever completely filter it out, but and it can be quite effortful for them to do so, because that habituation doesn't come as easily. I

    KC Davis 26:44

    said it's like being nose blind. Like, you know, how sometimes you'll walk into a room and you'll smell something, but if you spend enough time in that room, you actually, like, can't smell it anymore. Yes, you've had, yeah, you become nose blind to it. And it's interesting the idea that, like, we do that with our other senses, like, you know, you can have something in your clothing that, like, doesn't feel quite comfortable that day, right? But if I go about my business, I'll just kind of habituate to it, or I'll go, like, sensory blind to it, and I just won't think about it, right? But for some people, they can't do yes,

    Virginia Spielmann 27:21

    yes, and that is what desensitization is trying to leverage. So there's this gradual exposure. The familiar is heavily COVID as non threatening. You want to get familiar with it. You can imagine, like maybe being scared of dogs. You know, this would be maybe an approach that would be recommended, because, as if it's successful, as there's this gradual exposure over time, starting in those low intensity levels and gradually increasing, the nervous system and the brain adapts and is less responsive, less reactive, And the distress just isn't experienced in that somatic Body, Whole body level.

    KC Davis 28:04

    I remember listening to someone make a Tiktok once, and I think it was Caitlin Powell, but she's autistic. And she was talking about kind of that same example of, sometimes I put on a shirt and it just feels wrong. It feels wrong, and I'll change it, I'll change it and I'll change it and I'll change it. And she was talking about how she was working with her therapist on sort of desensitizing to some of these things. And I loved the way she talked about it, because it wasn't super black and white. She's like, you know, on the one hand, like, I don't want to stay at home for an hour doing it change after change after change after change after change, just kind of like trying to find what feels right, but at the same time, you know, saying we'll deal with it, you know, figure it out, go on. Just go through your day like I won't habituate to it. So, but one of the things that she did was she was like, the step I'm at with my therapist is that I bring a second sweater with me, so I don't change the sweater. I bring a second sweater with me, and I go about my day. And as she was doing that, she was like, you know, there are some days where I will just forget about it and but if I don't, I'm totally allowed to go and, like, change the second sweater. But it kind of reminds me of what you're talking about, where it's like this. And again, she as an adult, and she opted into that. And it's not this sort of like pressure of like, get over it. Take this with you. And I think we sometimes have this idea that comfort and challenge are opposites when it comes to either our own sensory stuff or our kids sensory stuff, where it's like, okay, the option is either comfort that the discomfort so it's okay, and let's get an accommodation, and let's make it better, or challenge it, which is like, keep going, you know, push through, suck it up. And, you know, I think, I think we would all be better by thinking about comfort and challenge. Is not having to be separate. It in sort of like moving forward, because it is true that, like, if you over shelter, like, I think we can get so focused on comfort that we do ourselves a disservice, even from a sensory perspective, you know, but at the same time, you know, you can't just throw someone, throw yourself in the deep end and say, hopefully I'll figure it out, you know? And so it really is kind of like weaving the thread.

    Virginia Spielmann 30:27

    I love that, yeah. And then I mean, and then what you've got with sensory integration therapy is trying to support the natural development of the nervous system by providing the just right experiences, if it's done right, that's what it should look like, and it should look like play in childhood. We do do it with adults here, and it can look a bit more like trial and error, and sometimes if it looks a bit like CrossFit. And you know, you're building this sensory lifestyle with the adults. But you know, with our sort of under 18 population, we're really wanting to optimize the natural development of the nervous system by providing the right experiences for that brain and body through play. So there's definitely, you know with what we want to see is the development of what we want to see, what we imagine we would see if we could look at the brain, would be the development of beautiful neural connections that support this person's mastery and autonomy in their own body. I can move through space the way I want. I can make a plan. I have ideas of how to move my body, and I can make it happen, and I'm going to do it again, and I'm experiencing success and joy and play again and again and again. And so these neural pathways are becoming highways, and it's so efficient. And you know, maybe even we might see some neural pathways become discarded that weren't serving us before. They're not the same thing. Desensitization and the sensory integration therapy are quite different. But I think because people talk about the treatment plan, the intervention, the program, sensory integration therapy, and it's also been done poorly, so so very often, that it's sort of been bucketed as another oppressive approach that's about changing the person to fit in, versus self actualization of the individual.

    KC Davis 32:33

    Yeah, I feel like I'm thinking back through some of those interventions that that I've heard of as a parent, and it feels like the desensitization ones have an intervention that's, like, pretty clearly linked to whatever the issue is. If that makes sense, like, oh, we have trouble with touching. Okay. Well, here's a brush. We're gonna brush the skin and desensitize whereas, like, I felt like, whenever OTS were doing more integration stuff, I would find myself being like, Okay, you want her to, like, swing on the swing. So that is more emotionally, right? And you're just like, what do these things have to do with each other? And they'd be like, trust us. We want her to, you know, cross the midlines. We want her to put these, you know, we want her to move these body, her body in this certain way. And so that's kind of always how those buckets happened in my head, where it was like, decent, I can't say, you know, I'm talking about that bucket was always like, like, you said, like, okay, the goal is to get in the water and we'll fart, we'll start with a little water, and then more water, and then more water. And it's always like, very connected. And then there was this whole other bucket of interventions that I was like, I mean, I guess I just trust you, because this doesn't make any like intuitive sense, how learning to stand on our head was going to help us. You know, with our picky eating or whatever it is,

    Virginia Spielmann 33:49

    that's a common, I think, challenge that we face as a field, and we have to do better parent education and caregiver education like this, knowledge can't, shouldn't be so mysterious, you know, like, Why does playing and big movements and cross body movements and excited play? Why does, like, I had one of the OTS here yesterday running around the building in a silly hat with the child chasing him, and the mother not far behind in her own silly hat, you know, and the work they're doing is on this child's emotional regulation. You know, she can be very invested in controlling the agenda in the classroom, and can get sort of very controlling with her peers. And, you know, how does us running around the building in silly hats even remotely? How do we join the dots with what's going on in the classroom? And I can what we need as therapists who can answer that question

    KC Davis 34:47

    is that only for kids like do we stop ever being at a developmental level where that big, excited whole body play like rewires the brain in good ways, because. I don't know the last time I've done that as an adult, yeah,

    Virginia Spielmann 35:02

    no. I mean, I love to get adults playing. It's just way harder. But, you know, I think, you know, and I play Dungeons and Dragons, that's one of my ways of doing it. And I love going to, you know, the packs conventions, where they've got all the cosplay and the games and the board games. And I think adult play is incredibly important for you know, why isn't your doctor asking you if you play as well as asking you if you have an active lifestyle? Well,

    KC Davis 35:29

    you know? What it reminds me of is that study they did about various interventions for depression, and it was like cognitive behavioral therapy, this type of therapy, this type of therapy, and then just random activities, exercise, dance, things like that, and SSRIs, I'm talking all of it. And I saw this post, and it was like, the interesting thing is not that, like dancing was the best form of exercise for depression, it was that dancing ranked better than every single intervention, including medication, including therapy, include, literally, including every clinically based, evidence based therapy. The number one intervention that seemed to have the biggest impact was dance. And I can't help but think, yes, there's probably kind of a I don't mean spiritual in a religious sense. I just mean like, in a play sense, of like, Oh, it's good for your mental health to be light and playful and whatever. But I can't help but think how much of that has to do with what you're talking about with this sensory health, where it's like, I know my daughter is better regulated when she has the room to run and spin and jump and do these things and that that like really talks to her nervous system. But I can't help but wonder, like, it's not like we hit 18 and all of a sudden childhood's over, and our bodies don't need that anymore. And maybe there really is something to that about these like gross motor movements and sensory integration and sensory sensitivity and mental health, and that's what it reminds me of. And I wonder if, like, when, you know, when you talk about sensory health, and when I hear the term sensory health, I think my initial thoughts were quite basic, quite Oh, you know, Is there too much sound? Is that bothering me? Do I need some headphones? Do I write and I find myself as I'm talking to you, realizing like, Oh my God. Like sensory health isn't just about like, what in my environment irritates me or overwhelms me, it's about like, Have I fed my vestibular system today, and is that connected to my self defeating thoughts and my toxic behaviors that I want to change well.

    Virginia Spielmann 37:44

    And you know what I was thinking while you were sharing about that study, the dance thing wasn't skilled dance, right? There's no you didn't mention, yeah, how great these dances were. And I'm pretty sure there would have been tremendous variety, right? But, and I think that's one of the things that holds us back, right as adults, right? Like, I won't do dance as my hobby as an adult, because that's a bit sad, isn't it, I'm not a professional dancer. It's gonna be

    KC Davis 38:13

    me and a bunch of six year olds going to dance class the level one class.

    Virginia Spielmann 38:17

    Yeah, and, actually, yes, go to dance class at 45 like, you know, find the thing, play the game. You

    KC Davis 38:26

    know, that was my so I have a theater degree. And when you get to your last there's this one class. And the big project of the year is called the wildness project. And you are tasked to go out and do something wild, something totally taboo, something that really pushes you out of your comfort zone. And what's so funny is that, like a lot of people would use that project to go do something like going and doing mushrooms was always like a big thing that people would do with it, or they'd go and you were allowed to do like you could come in and talk about that. You did not care if you broke laws or did any of that. I had a friend that sat for a nude painting, like she volunteered in the art department to sit for a nude painting, like all these things. And of course, here I am right, and I'm like, Okay, I have, like, a few years of sobriety, actually, at that point. And I'm like, I've already done all of this wild shit that you guys are doing. So my wildness project was to take an entry level ballet class at like a studio, because it terrified me to do so I felt so awkward, so uncomfortable, and that was, like, my version of pushing myself. But anyways, that's neither here nor there. I just think, like, totally plugs in with what you're saying, which is like, Yep, I

    Virginia Spielmann 39:37

    think that's spot on. We just, you know, and we design our lifestyles in this very adult way as well, where we move for an hour in the gym, and we sit for eight hours at work and we talk about our emotions in this space, and we've siloed these things out in. Such a way that we're really not cultivating sensory health, quite the opposite. So, yeah, I think, and, you know, there's so I love the idea of this dance thing, because in dance, there's sensation, motion, emotion, there's, you know, you stretch your nervous system, because you you know, there are moments of dance that are fast and maybe, you know, powerful and impactful, and then there can be quiet, and there's so much range. Yeah, I think that concept, AZ didn't talk about self actualization, the founder of sensory integration therapy, she talked about self organization. And you know that I'm in my body, I'm functioning well, you know? I'm in flow. Things feel good. I feel nourished. I'm self organized. We don't think about that.

    KC Davis 40:53

    Those are actually the terms that I've used, and I never heard anybody use those terms that I would talk about, like when I am struggling to communicate something that I'm experiencing, and then, like, I'll be in a situation where it just seems like everything inside of me kind of like, lines up, like aligns, and all of a sudden I have the words right. Or those are the words I use. I'm like, it feels like everything kind of organized for a moment, or if I experience something that, kind of like, throws me off, and then I can't, quite like, kind of get it back together. That's the term that I resonate the most with, which, like, that was a very disorganizing event. And so I love those terms. That's

    Virginia Spielmann 41:34

    so cool. I haven't heard someone sort of use them. Think that's the way they were intended to be used in sensory integration as well. You know, that's what integration. What is integration? It's that everything's aligned, everything's working together. I'm in an optimal state of function right now, you know. And then that I'm an inch taller than when I'm disorganized. Bring it right and, you know. And then when you focus on that, and that's what drives the work that you do. It changes everything about how you deliver your therapeutic supports and right goals, and, you know, all of those pieces, and it becomes about helping children be classroom citizens, because they get it, because they want to, and because they have something tremendous to contribute, and the class would, you know, would miss out if they didn't, rather than, you know, fitting in and being convenient students who look the same as everyone else, which is not, you know, helpful for anyone? Yeah.

    KC Davis 42:36

    Well, Virginia, thank you so much for your time. Can you go ahead and plug your organization if you wanted to learn more about it?

    Virginia Spielmann 42:45

    Yeah. Star Institute is a non profit based in Centennial, Colorado. Our website is sensory health, dot O, R, G, and we do research, provide education, and also provide therapeutic programming all the way through the lifespan. People travel from around the world to us for programs. We run conferences and events all the way throughout the year for allied health professionals, educators, caregivers and neurodivergent individuals who want to learn more. We really love sharing what we do, because we really want it to stop being a mystery. Our vision is sensory health for the nation, state and the world. I said that the wrong way around sensory Health for the state, the nation and the world. And yeah. So what we, you know, we have this sort of idea that people will know enough about this stuff that over coffee, talking about something, you know, I've been on the struggle bus for a couple of weeks. And, you know, I'm talking about why I'm on the struggle bus. And my friend says, Have you thought about and up comes some concept related to sensory health, right? You know, really liberating us to tune back into our bodies and to find our flow and what it feels like to be self organized.

    KC Davis 44:03

    Thank you so much. You.

Christy Haussler
126: Almond Moms, Metabolic Diseases, and Pediatric Obesity (Part 2) with Dr. Karla Lester

This episode is the second part to my conversation with Dr. Karla Lester about food shaming, weight bias, metabolic diseases, “almond moms,” and more. Dr. Karla lends her professional expertise to the discussion of these important topics. Join us!

Show Highlights:

  • The effect of “almond mom” parenting on kids: food shaming, eating disorders, and more

  • The start of binge eating disorder in very young kids

  • Guarding against “opposite” mistakes with your kids in making good food choices

  • From KC, a parent’s perspective on food choices and neurodivergent kids

  • A switch from compliance to compassion

  • The goal in feeding kids should start with a focus on intentional, daily protein intake (Start with protein at breakfast!)

  • Aim for habit change in a positive direction.

  • Understanding “food noise” and what it means to bust common food myths

  • Dr. Karla’s advice to parents: “Get to neutral.”

  • Red flags for parents to look for in their kids’ food behaviors

  • Responding as a parent to your child’s weight gain/loss

  • The truth about insulin resistance: “It is an epidemic that we cannot ignore!”

  • Understanding the term healthism

Resources and Links:

Connect with Dr. Karla Lester: IME Community, Dr. Karla, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and Dr. Karla's radio show

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:05

    So what are some of the like? What's some of the damage? You know, if, because we're still kind of talking about this first mistake of, kind of the almond moms, of, kind of weaponizing thinness and believing in this sort of myth of calories in, calories out, and that, you know, as long as you're thin, you must be healthy, and any means necessarily, what's the effect of that kind of parenting that you're seeing in kids? Well,

    Dr. Karla Lester 0:28

    what I've learned is there's a ton of food shaming. There's eating disorders that are perpetuated or caused by those kinds of actions parents have maybe good intentions, but sometimes we can cause harm even with good intentions. See, I knew that from my work, like I can develop a whole nonprofit and do some amazing things I'm proud of, and at the end of the day, I feel like we were too BMI focused. I feel like I had really great intentions. I did a ton of work, but let's face it, like I contributed to some harm. So I don't, I don't want to do that anymore. So that's the thing that I don't think parents understand. They think that when they say, Oh, why are you going for seconds when you just ate, or their kid goes to the cabinet after they had dinner and they're just activated. Maybe their child has gained weight, and that kind of weight talk is very intergenerational. There's a study I talked about on my radio show last week about InterGen, generational parent weight talk and how it affects kids. They did a study in age five to nine looked at different ethnicities, races, and they found that you know how you talk, when you talk to your kids about weight, even if you have intention to focus on health, most of the time, parents are bringing that toxicity that they've learned in to their home, and they're causing, like, a broad range of harm. So it can be that the parents are going to get into more like restrictive eating. So the kids going to restrict, and then they're always going to binge okay? And that's one thing I've learned too on Tiktok from people who are adults who grew up, you know, they were singled out, they were restricted with their intake, and their binge eating started really young, so maybe even six to eight. So we in practice screen. We have adolescent binge eating disorder screening. Well, we need to talk about it earlier so the kids really confused. They get into what I call food shaming, so they don't know what to eat. They're food policing themselves. And I all say, you know, amazing parents who really want the best. They're very educated. I'll talk to their kid, and I said, Why can't you get seconds? And they're like, Oh, I could never do that. Why not? Oh, my mom would give my dad a look, or my mom would give me a look. And so some parents, luckily, who I work with, they want to do the work to deconstruct that, because I'm like that, stop that. Can you stop that? What's coming up in you? You know, like, what is coming up in you? Or they'll say, my kid's a lazy eater. There's Oreos there. They'll eat the Oreos. Well, yeah, if I've cut up vegetables, they'll eat that. And so they say, my kid's a lazy eater. No, they're not. They're just, you know, environment predicts behaviors. They're just doing their kid thing. So, and I've seen parents who have had, I worked with parents and teens who have different perspectives on the same experience. So I had a mom who I love working with her, but she's, like, very compliance based person. She's like, really, like, gets a lot of stuff done. Let's fix this, you know. And she's that way with her daughter, who's struggling with really severe eating disorders. And so with her daughter, she said she did amazing during the pandemic. She with her weight and her eating. Well, I go and talk to the daughter. She's awesome, hilarious. Prefer working with the teens, and she's like, I was dying during the pandemic, like I was eating less than 500 calories a day. I watched my mom just like, let people praise me on my weight loss. And I was literally dying. And, you know, to be honest, obviously, I'm like, put on my pediatrician hat, you know. Let's stop here. Talk to mom like, this is somebody who needs treatment, probably inpatient, you know. But it was just so interesting to see that, you know, mom is like, so feeling like her daughter, who was literally dying, was doing so, great, yeah. So that's an extreme.

    KC Davis 4:55

    It still illustrates like, what the issue is. And. With that kind of those myths and how damaging they can be if we don't unpack them from ourselves. Carla, side note, we're at the top of the hour. I want to be respectful of your time. I We haven't really even gotten into the second half of it. Do you have time to keep going? Or would you like to reschedule to Okay? I feel like that's a really good setup for kind of this second, or the opposite mistake, which is kind of where I find myself as a parent, right? Like, I know all of those things that we just unpack. I don't want to make weight comments, I don't want to make food comments. I've done all the things that they've said to do. You know, don't make sweets taboo, and don't make them you know, have to eat their broccoli before their dessert. And, you know, now I have kids that only want cake, right? And then also, like, learning about my own stuff with PCOS and ADHD and how, like, it actually doesn't work to just say no rules at all. Eat whatever you feel like, eating like that's not helping me. That's causing some health issues for me. So I need to make some diet changes, but I don't have any tools for making diet changes that didn't come from diet culture, right? And so that's where I am personally. And I'm looking at my kids, and it's like I'm at a loss of what language to use with my kids so that I can equip them to make good choices, to eat food that will fuel their body to because, you know, I ate everything and anything I wanted, and my metabolism in my youth, like made it so that it looked, didn't look like there were any effects of that. And now, you know, I have some health stuff, and I'm being told to eat differently, and I don't know how, and it's like this, the ADHD and the PCOS and the food noise kind of clashing with this. Oh, there are no food rules. And it's like, I need something else. And so I guess I'm just curious, like, how it's making me do this sort of reactive like, just don't say anything about food, you know. And I'm curious, like, where, what does it look like when we kind of do this opposite mistake of, okay, I'm so afraid to say anything that I might not be giving them the tools that they need.

    Dr. Karla Lester 6:57

    Yeah, this is such a great question. And first of all, I want to tell you that you are doing a lot. I mean, you're interviewing me, but you have so much information about your children's health. You know them so well. You know what works, you know what could cause harm, you know what's going on with them. I mean, you're totally engaged, and you know a ton about your own health, and you really know a lot about the science, so that is going to be like you, I can tell you, debunked and kind of let go and challenged a lot of the myths and recognizing the harm that and also really want you to understand that it's not just all on you. Okay, you don't cause and you don't control everything. So what we can do first is to reclaim health and a definition of health and how you think about health. And I think it's very challenging. It's even hard for me as a physician, is like it was the absence of disease, prevention of disease. You know, what does it mean to you? And then think about that, like, for your family, leave weight out of it. Okay? We don't want to food police. So we don't want to have like, here's good food, here's healthy choices. You know, think about the language that can be really triggering, and we don't want to do that. We also don't want to like, I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Ellen Satter. She's a dietitian who's been around for decades, and she has a division of responsibility, which I think is really amazing work. Her work is beautiful, but it's like, parents, you know, you bring the food into the home, and you provide some routine and structure and some positive experiences around eating, and then the kids decide what and if they eat, you

    KC Davis 8:35

    know, oh, I have heard of that, that kind of split of responsibility, yeah, that was one. That's one that I've tried really hard to do, where it's like we I put the food on the plate, and then you decide what you are aren't going to eat. And so I think that's beautiful, this idea of that way, I don't argue about what you do eat, what you don't eat, all this kind of stuff. Here's what I ran into as a parent, is I ended up having neuro divergent children that have safe foods, children that will break down in tears if you're asked to try a food that is slightly different than another food. And I think it's hard when you have that. And it's like, you see your kids palette kind of narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow, and you're going, well, like that may not be like, the healthiest thing for like, your whole palette to be just these foods, but at the same time, you know, I think we find ourselves as parents starting with this idea of, oh, yeah, I'll put it on the plate and you'll it's like, well, sometimes my kids just wouldn't need anything on there. Like, it's not true for all kids, that they'll eat if they're hungry, right?

    Dr. Karla Lester 9:34

    Yeah, it's kind of like the intuitive eating, you know? It's like, that's great in theory. Okay, so what we want to do, what I do is it comes from the coaching principles of so a lot of diet culture is like compliance based. And what we do as physicians, too is like me telling you kind of authoritatively what to do. And so then parents do that to their kids, and then that's why they resist. And it's like you've put up this, like, demand. Avoidance type situation, which you're going to especially have when you have neurodivergent children. But so what we want to do is switch from compliance to more compassion. Compassion doesn't mean that we're not doing anything, okay? Compassion means we're working on our relational health. We're working on it together. So what we want to do is get positive emotion activation, so we want it to be a positive thing. So for you, your work is probably going to be around like, what's our why, like, what's my why for doing this? And do some work around that, because that's going to be really epically powerful to keep you motivated. And then we get into the how, and it's really adding in the positive, so we're not restricting or taking anything away. And so some things that we maybe think about that our diet culture are really not and are just really helpful for taking action and health behavior change. So those are things like making decisions ahead of time about food. It doesn't mean we have to meal prep and everything, unless that's helpful. But you know, I'll do that like for a week, and then I drop. But anyway, yeah, whatever. Anyway. So what I always do is we add in protein first, because what do we want to do? We want to decrease glycemic variability. We want to stabilize blood sugars. So whether we have a weight issue, whether we have insulin resistance, when you know, I have patients who did a CGM, actually, and he went off his anxiety medication because he was finding that his anxiety was related to blood sugar fluctuations from some of the foods that He had been eating in different times a day, and the irritability and things like that. So, okay, so what we want to do is balance our blood sugars decrease. Blood sugar is going up and down, so we've got to do daily intentional protein intake. And then when you look at, you know, if you look at how damaging with our toddlers, it's like, oh, they're snacking all the time, all the snack foods. Look at what it was and what's marketed to us, and then we're heroes as parents. Is a high carbohydrate, a lot of processed stuff, and low fat. They need fat for their brains to develop. I mean, it's an amazing energy source, and so we add in protein first. You don't have to count macros, but it's just like every time we're eating even a snack, we're gonna have protein daily intentional protein intake. You don't even have to tell your kids. But with my patients, I actually like working. I've paid several patients who are on the autism spectrum, and I love working with them, because they choose. You know, like, here your power of choice, agency, autonomy. Here's why. What are five protein options that you like? And we get them in every time, and we're not going to talk about it. It gets boring over time. We don't need to duplicate and keep redoing this work. That's what diet culture tells us, you know, it's not on or off, you know. And it's like, do a seven day habit challenge this week. We're gonna add in protein at breakfast, and that's gonna start your day. You're gonna focus better, you're gonna have energy. I mean, your good blood sugars are gonna be more balanced. And then, and you usually have to think ahead of time to get protein in at breakfast. And then, you know, what do you reflect on that, you know, and maybe as a parent, depending on your kid's age and where they are developmentally, you're the one who's reflecting on it. Like, how hard was that, that was? We want to have it, stack it, okay, then you're going to add in other things, you know, fiber is a little bit more tricky. Like, what are we doing? Fruits and vegetables. We're not going to demonize or we're not going to push things. You're going to do a 20, maybe 50% on that habit change in the positive direction. Okay, maybe it's sleep. What's the biggest problem in front of you? You know that's what you're going to address first. Okay, you're developing self trust. You have the evidence tracking too. Is not diet, culture, self monitoring. Now, unless you're gonna, like, put it in a it depends on what you're using. Like, I don't like tracking, unless I do, like, three days and I don't have time for it, I get an idea, and then I know, like, this is what I'm getting, and I can have an idea of, like, how much protein I'm getting, and I it's too boring for me. Yeah, I never count my

    KC Davis 14:27

    total, not a lifestyle, you know, I like what you're saying here, because it reminds me of, kind of that approach, of, like, eat what you want, add what you need, so that it's not kind of this restrictive, but it's just making sure and that I feel a little bit better, kind of a my approach first, personally with my kids, because that's kind of what I've been trying to do. I've noticed that, you know, the reality is, is that the type of food I eat does affect some of my health conditions, and I've learned that prioritizing protein. And what happened was, for a long time, I had doctors telling me to do low carb, do low carb, do low. Carb, and it never, ever, ever worked. And I could not sustain it until I finally had a doctor say, I want you to prioritize protein. And what happened was, naturally, when I was prioritizing protein, I was just eating, like refined carbs, but it wasn't a restricting, and I realized that's what it was. Was I would say, Okay, I'm not gonna eat that carb. Not gonna eat that carb. But then I was just I was just hungry all the time, and when I started prioritizing protein, it was like the protein was giving me more of what I needed. It was helping with satiation. I would there was no restriction. And so I've been trying to do that, and what I've noticed is I'm running into some of that, like, you know, I call it food noise, but I think you refer to it as, like, food cue reactivity.

    Dr. Karla Lester 15:43

    Yeah, that's a scientific term for food noise. And,

    KC Davis 15:46

    you know, it's difficult, because I'm trying to make these diet changes, and I'm doing things that my doctor is asking, and I'm finding that I'm really struggling with, okay, I can do this, and my brain won't turn off, and it's weird to be like, I think I know enough about anti diet to know, like, this isn't a willpower problem, so I'm not gonna move in the direction of, oh, you know, try harder, try harder. But it's weird because it's like, I don't know how else to support myself when I feel this, you know, and I think sometimes people say food noise, and you see in there that they're on a really restrictive diet, and you're like, maybe that's just hunger. Like, you're gonna think about food all the time if you're not eating enough, but like, I am truly talking about something very different around like, the way that my brain sort of, like perseverates around certain foods, because regardless of whether I'm full or hungry or any of that, and it's difficult to go, I think I need support here and again, I don't want to go in the diet culture direction, but it's kind of like I don't know where else there is to go.

    Dr. Karla Lester 16:54

    Well, it's a medical issue. It's in your brain. There's nothing wrong with your brain. You're just getting some data. Okay, so those cravings are real, or food noise are maybe your body is telling you to, you know, what happens if you're making some changes, if your body's changing, your body is just trying to keep status quo. And so it's like that we might activate more of the, you know, food scarcity, but also like cravings, so that it gets your body back up to where was. It's also really hard in our society, because we're very visual people. You know, our senses are activated. So food noise is so easy. It's all around us. So if you're doing, I mean, it's so hard when doctors say, eat low carb, but there, I mean, it takes so much support to help somebody navigate that in our culture, and there's different degrees of it, and your body eventually will become what's called like fat adapted to where you'll be able to mobilize your energy stores. And it sounds like you were noticing some of that Casey, like you were noticing that your body was having less cravings. You were probably becoming more insulin sensitive and more insulin responsive. Things were starting to work how they were. But you have a long history of, you know, these, like any food, maybe feeling restriction creates a scarcity mindset that creates more cravings and more food noise, you know for

    KC Davis 18:36

    sure, and I've done the work of like, I know that like, carbs have been demonized, and brain needs glucose, like you need the like, carbs are not the enemy, but so that's why it feels weird to be in this spot where it's like, I don't want to get, like, eaten alive for like, engaging in some sort of, you know, myth about carbs. But like, the reality is, even after I've unpacked all of that, I am struggling to have a diet that supports my health. It's really not about, you know, fat phobia. It's not about, you know, diet culture, or any of those things, which I guess I'm just saying all of that to say that I really appreciate your platform and what you're talking about and recognizing that there is this ideological importance of talking about sort of busting these diet myths. But then there's still individual people struggling with things that need support. And it's not as easy as just saying, You know what? No food rules. Just intuitively eat everything. And I know part of intuitive eating is eating for health, but there's not really a mechanism that explains how to do that when you're really struggling. Yeah,

    Dr. Karla Lester 19:46

    it's individualized. It's very individualized, as you're seeing. So we don't have to even think about, you know, for you like, what would it be like for you to create what would be your preferred future? So. So we don't have to stay attached to things that haven't been serving us. So you don't have to keep pinging back and forth every time you eat. You know, it's like, oh my gosh. You know, you're just being super hard on yourself, I can tell. So you can step back, be a little more curious, but also come up with some mantra that's going to help you, that resonates that you really believe that's like, you know, you're I'm doing enough. I am enough. You know, I'm working it out. You know, I'm working it out like there's nothing going wrong here. You know, it's just like something to get to neutral. You know, I tell parents that like get to neutral, don't say and you believe this. You know, you're beautiful. You're when your kids hating on their body, or they don't have clothes to wear, and they're you're noticing they're doing body checking, or maybe find wrappers, and they're binging, and you know, it's just so horribly activating for us as parents to go through that, or to see that, and we don't know how to help, but it's like, we don't want To get into the where we're, like, trying to convince them of something that they don't believe. Okay, so it's like, you don't say, Oh, you're beautiful. Don't say that. But be like, You got a body. Everybody is different. Everybody is different. Every body is different. Get to neutral. Get to just neutral with everything. So

    KC Davis 21:20

    in that vein of getting to neutral, you know, I think we talked a little bit about, like, things as a parent that I don't want to be reacting to, like, Oh, they've gained weight, there's a problem, or they're going back for seconds. We can't allow that and but I don't want to over correct and, like, not look at anything health wise. What would you say to a parent, like, what are some of the signs that should actually be cueing my curiosity around food or diet or weight with children. That's not coming from this reactive fat phobia, weight stigma, thin privilege, but it might genuinely be, hey, let's investigate this. Let's make sure we're taking healthy steps around this. Let's maybe see a doctor about this. What kind of steps would you say that? What kind of like, little flags should we be looking for as parents? And I just thought that when you mentioned the like, the candy wrappers. So, yeah, share this. Well,

    Dr. Karla Lester 22:12

    first of all, you're gonna be the one that knows your kid and that sees the behaviors. And so whether it's things like maybe they're binge eating, or they're restricting food, or they're saying things about their body that are negative. Because the reality is, when you look at body image, body dissatisfaction, which teens are so stuck in, that happens really young, and when you look at all the influences on that, you know, with phone, social media, everything that's out there, even really young kids are exposed to so much like negative body image, and they just, it's really hard for parents, so we don't fully control that. So you may be seeing that in young kids, and it may be very activating. And you may be like, I don't know where this is coming from. Obviously, if you notice that they're gaining weight in a short period of time, maybe they have more stress at school. Let's just think about, like, what could be going on at school? Are they being bullied? Do they have don't ignore things and focus on weight that are going on so, like, food can be a very powerful coping mechanism. It can be so helpful when you're stressed. And I've even had patients and coaching clients where I've said we can be grateful to food for helping us get through these really toxic times, but is something going on at school, like they have a learning issue in a specific area, and we need to address that? Don't be afraid of addressing what's really going on, talking to teachers and learning. You know, what could be, maybe the cause for some of this. So then the other thing is, you know, I wish that we as pediatricians had been more open and less weight biased and less BMI focused, because a lot of parents will be like, well, I took them in, and then they said they're fine, and they made me feel weight shamed this whole time. And then now that I know that they meet the criteria for the medication, the GLP, one medication, now that I go in and mention that, then I'm seen as like this almond mom, so they can't win, but there are a lot of amazing pediatricians out there. So looking at, I think it's more helpful to look at weight, separate from height and then follow trends. So, you know, obviously weight gain most likely can be just a part of normal, healthy growth and development for a child. But let's see. You know, what are those causes, comorbidities, potentially going on and contributing factors? Is there a medication? Is there? Yeah, some sort of disordered eating, some new stressor. I mean, there's so many different possibilities for what could be causing, you know, is there something genetic going on? And then, you know, getting the data to see, you know, do we need to screen their. Fasting lipid profile. Do we need to screen their hemoglobin, a 1c get a cmp to check for fatty liver disease, and their blood sugar levels and thyroid, you know, looking at their height, some things that might affect their height, you know, are they having pubertal development early or delayed? I mean, there's, it's very complex. It's different than adults, and so getting to the pediatrician is going to be really helpful, too. And

    KC Davis 25:27

    I would also guess, you know, thinking back on that story you told us, is that if we see the inverse, like, if we see rapid weight loss, because I do think there's probably a lot of parents that might initially respond to that as like, Oh, this is great. They're getting healthier, they're making better choices. But I kind of hear you saying, like, you know, don't like, you said, like, separate it, take it as a data point and make sure that we're not just projecting our own sort of, like, cultural biases onto that. So we don't want to see weight gain and go, This is bad. There must be no health. But we also don't want to see weight loss and go, Oh, this is great. They must be making great choices. It could be, it could be those things. So we don't want to also just like, over correct, and go, like, I It's fine. Every body is fine. So we're just not going to look into this at all. But I think that's a helpful thing for parents of you, saying, like, you know, disconnect it from sort of, maybe your cultural projection onto what it means. But also don't ignore it completely, exactly.

    Dr. Karla Lester 26:29

    And the main thing, though, is, if the restriction is happening and you're seeing weight loss in a child, you really need to get in. I mean, I think that's just, do not pass go, go straight to the pediatrician. That is, you know, once that cycle starts, that just becomes so powerful, it's so protected, and yes, parents cannot ignore that. That's extremely dangerous. It

    KC Davis 26:53

    sounds like you would be more concerned with a child losing weight than you are with the child gaining weight. Absolutely.

    Dr Carla, I want to kind of land the plane with this. One of the things that you've talked about is insulin resistance. And what's funny is that I found myself having kind of a reaction to that term, because that term has also, like, made itself, like made its way into what I call, like the wellness grifter buzzword. And this is what happens a lot of times, I think, with like wellness culture and wellness Grifters, where they're selling, they're trying to sell you something, some tea, some ridiculous whatever, and they really are trying to get to this part of our insecurity, where we go I don't like the way I look or the way I feel, and it's this promise of this quick fix. And I see this all the time, and I see it with things like cortisol face, like, you're not overweight, you have cortisol face. We can fix it if just drink this tea, right? Or like, oh, you know, are you stressed? Do you have brain fog? It's probably the MTHFR gene mutation, or whatever. And what I think is really unfortunate. See this with the MTHFR gene mutation. I see it with insulin resistance. I see it with cortisol phase. I see it with mast cell activation syndrome, where it's like these real terms that are real medical issues, but once the like Grifters get a hold of them, it's like they become this kind of like stereotype, this sort of like woo, woo, like snake oil, selling whatever. And there's two things that are really unfortunate about that. The first is obviously all of us now kind of believing we have some health condition that we don't have, so that we can buy some ridiculous detox tea or food plan or hire some trainer to do something. But I think the second really unfortunate effect of that is that it delegitimizes the very real medical issues that those things can be. So we kind of have, like this overreaction to it, where it's like, you know, oh, everyone has cortisol face, and it's like, no, I've legitimately had my cortisol tested, and I just have a round face, you know what I mean? But then it's like, what if someone does have cortisol face? And we're all going, No, that's not a real thing. It's like, no, wait, slow down. So can you talk to us a little bit about like, that term of insulin resistance, and how it's maybe, like, it's made its way into that wellness grift. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's not real.

    Dr. Karla Lester 29:36

    Yeah, insulin resistance is real. It is the epidemic that I think we absolutely should be worried about, especially when I'm looking at teens. And we look at a study called the today two study. It's today in all caps, everybody should check it out and talks about how type two diabetes in adolescents is different. It's more severe, and they have early cardiovascular disease within. One to two years of diagnosing it, and once a hemoglobin, a 1c reaches 6.3% it's hard to turn it around. So I mean, it's, to me, it's like this metabolic health emergency. And so I had a friend say, Carla, I just can't believe it, you've talked about insulin resistance. You're like the expert on this. You've been on Tiktok talking about it, and now everyone is just talking about insulin resistance. And I'm like, Oh, I know. I mean, it's just the way of the world. In America, it's what we are. We're consumers. Everything is a market. You know, every and diet culture teaches us that, you know, we can buy something, look for the singular fix and solve. Oh, here's what's broken with me. And then we can, with certainty, buy this thing. And then we think that we can cause and control it. It makes us feel safe. I mean, there's a lot going on in the world. I have to give parents a break too. I mean, it's a scary place. And for teens, you know, there's a lot going on. And so this is something that we can believe that we can cause and control and is causing us harm. So I get it. I get kind of into dogma too, and wanting to buy things and the latest and greatest, but just recognize that cortisol face can be a part of Cushing's. I've never heard the term cortisol face until I got on tick tock. But yeah, there are patients who have Cushing's disease, and they're going, it's very severe or Cushing syndrome, and taking care of several and over the years, and it's not something you're going to find out on the internet. Of parents be like, do you think they have Cushing's and they have cortisol face? I'll be like, no. But anyway, okay, work with your doctor if you think you have Cushing's disease or syndrome. Okay, so part of it is healthism. Okay, so you can look at the kind of separate out. What is healthism? Healthism is where we put and this actually started in the 80s. It's so interesting. Healthism is when we feel like we can that our health is up to the individual is in control the individual and can be blamed. And so we really get into that. We get kind of wacky. And then in America, with our consumerism that we're addicted to, we want to look for the singular fix and solve that's, I can buy it. This has certainty, and we want certainty, right? This is gonna work, and then we don't have to blame ourselves, because the other side of things has been this, like, harmful, dis, uncomfortable. You know, once we get into the health behavior change that maybe we want to make it's so uncomfortable, and some of us get and I a victim of this, I get into, like, a more restrictive thinking space that can kind of feel kind of safe to me, but I'm going to over function on that. And so that's one reason why I don't do anything. So then we get into healthism and believing that our that we can control it and fix it, this problem. And then the other thing is that with social media, especially experts, are not listened to. And so it's that, it's this kind of weird thing that I see, and I look at the comments of some of these influencers who are glorifying eating disorders, basically, and these people who have then privilege and who are using it as creators and her selling you stuff, these people want to be like them. And they just like, believe that if I buy this, I'm going to look like that, you know, whether it's a dress or, you know, so we want to stay out of the extremes of like, the diet culture and then like the do nothing. But it's also staying out of this extreme of like, thinking that nothing we do is going to improve our health or make us feel better, improve our well being, or over here with healthism, consumerism, singular fix and solve. And I'm almost lately, I've been thinking about that kind of shift, and that's kind of almost more helpful to me, because it kind of leaves weight out of it. Well,

    KC Davis 34:01

    Dr Carl, I really appreciate all of your help. I feel like there's a lot of people out there that need to hear these truths about the way that we have thought that weight and health is connected for so long, and the way we've been told for so long that that that is not accurate. And then I think there's also a lot of us that need to hear that as we deconstruct from those things, to not be afraid, to have to address, you know, our health struggles. You know, because we're we have this fear that we're gonna, you know, go back to the dark side, and it's like, no, there really is an empowered way forward. And I really appreciate that. Can you share how people can watch your content, but just kind of plug yourself? Oh,

    Dr. Karla Lester 34:45

    thank you. And this has been a great discussion. It's just brilliant. Your questions, okay? So you can find me at I m, e community.com, so the power of the individual and support of a community, and you can find. Find me on my other website, Dr Carla, with the kmd.com and that's where you'll find coaching. And I have a course called Health yourself, which is a reverse your insulin resistance course that I do in group coaching. And I have a metabolic telehealth practice that's for ages five up to age 21 that's licensed in 15 states. You can find me on Tiktok at ime community or Dr Carla MD, and I'm on Instagram and Facebook, but mainly on Tiktok. And then I have my weekly radio show, and that is 80s mixtape with Dr Carla at Casey u m.org let's see this week, I talked about bullying yesterday on my show and I played, we're not going to take it by Twisted Sister. So very cool.

    KC Davis 35:47

    All right. Well, thank you so much, and this has been delightful. Thank you. You.

Christy Haussler
125: Almond Moms, Metabolic Diseases, and Pediatric Obesity (Part 1) with Dr. Karla Lester

Today’s topic arouses a host of different feelings and reactions around the term “pediatric obesity.” Dr. Karla Lester joins us to share her expertise as a medical professional and her perspective as a concerned parent. Discussing food and eating habits for us and our kids can send us down a rabbit hole with many tangents. Let’s get some balance and clarity in today’s episode.

Show Highlights:

  • Parents are victims of diet myths and bad science—and it carries over to our kids.

  • Having food rules doesn’t mean a commitment to restrictive eating.

  • How Dr. Karla came to the work she does today

  • “Almond moms” and “thin privilege” in our society

  • Fact: It is more difficult to navigate the world in a larger body, and parents fear this for their kids.

  • Health myths that “almond moms” believe and pass on to their kids

  • Does thinner always mean healthy? “No, you can be metabolically healthy, or unhealthy, at any weight.”

  • Comorbidities between addictions and eating disorders

  • Myths about obesity causing many health issues

  • Understanding insulin resistance and its causes

  • A look at the COVID-19 epidemic in a different light

Resources and Links:

Connect with Dr. Karla Lester: IME Community, Dr. Karla, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and Dr. Karla's radio show

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:00

    ,Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and today we're going to talk about something that, let's be frank, absolutely, like arouses a lot of feelings and reactions to the term, which is pediatric obesity. Now that's obviously medical language, and there's a good reason why we all feel a reaction to that, but I have in the studio today, Dr Carla Lester and Dr Carla first, I want to say thank you for being here. Thank

    Dr. Karla Lester 0:33

    you for having me. I've been following you since I got on Tiktok, and your platform has been super helpful to me as a parent. Well,

    KC Davis 0:41

    your platform has been super helpful to me, and one of the reasons why I really wanted to have you on the podcast is because I feel like as parents, particularly at my experience as a parent, where I've been really in my own journey, kind of situated pretty firmly in the anti diet movement for a while now, when it came to some of the realities of, like, trying to help my kids make choices that are healthy, and I don't want to be an almond mom and I don't want to do diet culture, what I found was there's a little bit more here than just everything. Can be intuitive eating, and it totally doesn't matter. And, you know, and I even recognize, like, with my own ADHD, like, I have some challenges in the way that I eat that, you know, I couldn't find answers to those, just in kind of the intuitive eating side of it, but I don't want to go into the diet side of it. And so I'm kind of, like, I don't even know what to do with my own self. And that kind of also brings this gap for, I think, when we're looking at our kids, where I don't want to be harmful, and I know that weight isn't a measure of health, but at the same time, I think sometimes we look at our kids and there's some real health issues happening, and weight is either causally or tangentially related. And I think as parents, we're like, really afraid. We don't want to do harm, but we don't know what to do. And so I think you thread that needle really well. So I'm hoping that we can talk about that today.

    Dr. Karla Lester 2:06

    Perfect. That is what I do. So my whole philosophy is, let's meet in the middle, because what I found when I started my platform Miami community, and then I have a metabolic telehealth practice, it's licensed in 15 states, is that parents are stuck pinging back and forth between the extremes, and it makes sense because of how we grew up, all the myths, the bad science we've been taught. So they're either in the which kudos to you for being anti diet, and more in the body positivity and Health at Every Size. You know that's where we want to be to avoid harm, but the ping back and forth between that and believing falsely that that means that we're not addressing health or also ignoring, like you said, that there are some comorbidities and health issues related. We could talk about insulin resistance, but you know, what are the actual health issues that are going on? So there's the kind of do nothing, I'm not going to cause any harm, or the pinging back and forth between, like restrictive diet culture, I'm going to be an almond mom. And diet culture teaches us that it's all or nothing. It's going to be painful, it's horrible. And so what I do is I'm like, we kind of have to just drop everything, erase everything, deconstruct and do that work, because we have internalized weight bias. And so what do we want to do? We want to learn what are the actual health issues that my child or teen is facing? And start with relational health. So you can be like me, be like a soft place to land. Operate with compassion, not compliance. Don't look for a singular fix and solve to your child's body, accept them fully. That's your job, and love them and then also accept you want to make some changes. That's okay.

    KC Davis 3:53

    Yeah, I think part of what's hard is, like as a parent, we can't teach something that we ourselves have not been taught, and we can't impart something that we haven't internalized. And, you know, it was really important for me to find the anti diet movement and to find intuitive eating, and to find Health at Every Size which, if anyone's listening and they're not familiar with those, you know, we don't really have time to unpack all of them, but one of the things that I do know is that all of those kind of movements, they are about health like, none of them are denying that. Like you might need to make changes in your diet, in your activity level, you might need to look at health markers. None of them are denying that. So I don't want to seem as though I'm saying that. I'm just saying that me as the person navigating those movements. What I found was I was like, Okay, this is great. Get rid of dieting, get rid of food rules, get rid of all these things. And I really pushed into intuitive eating. And I met with dietitians, and we talked a lot about, okay, you know, how does your body feel when you eat X, Y, or when you eat a, b, c? And I kept being like, I feel nothing. I. I feel nothing. And we, oh, okay, well, we just can't hear. You can't hear. Let's get in. And we kind of kind like, literally, after a couple of dieticians, we got to the point where one finally went, I mean, you've mentioned that you have ADHD, and we know that, historically, that can come with some interoception problems. The truth is, not everybody feels a difference when they eat one thing over the other. And she finally was like you might and that's what it kind of came down to, for me, was I don't want to be in diet culture. But at the same time, I hit my mid 30s and was told I have a fatty liver, and was told that I had some other like health risk factors for some insulin stuff, and was told by a doctor, I need you to make some of these diet changes. And I was like, okay, my only experience with quote, unquote, food rules is this restrictive diet place, and my only experience with Health at Every Size was this, sort of like, throw all the rules out. And I truly didn't know what to do. Okay, she wants me to eat less sugar, she wants me to eat different kinds of carbs, she wants me to do protein. And I don't know how to do that. And I realized in looking at my kids, okay, I'm doing all of the anti diet stuff. I'm serving dessert with dinner. I'm not making them, you know, eat this before that. I'm not doing taboo, I'm not doing whatever. And then I realized, like, my kids might be a little bit like me. And my kids, all they want is sugar all the time, despite the fact that I have done all of the things I was told to do, to not make sugar the number one thing they want. And so then I'm like, Okay, now we actually kind of maybe need some rules around this, but I don't want to do the bad rules, but I need some rules, and I don't, I don't want my kids to grow up and be like me and not have a way. So I know I just kind of like verbally vomited on you, Dr Carla, but all that to say, I feel like you are such a necessary person to thread this needle, and I want to go a little bit into your background. Because what I really want to do with you is I want to kind of talk about these two polar opposite mistakes we can make, about kind of like almond mom diet culture, but then also kind of like saying everything and anything goes and not having any structure. But I want to start because I think it's important for the audience to know your background, and so tell us a little bit about your background and how you kind of got to this place.

    Dr. Karla Lester 7:13

    Okay. And thanks for sharing what you shared, too. I just want to say, when you have insulin resistance, you know Intuitive Eating is not going to work. Okay? These are med makes me feel these are medical issues. These are medical issues. And also, there's, I did a radio show on, I have a radio show on insulin resistance is central, so it's in your brain. So you've got all these things going on in our brain with central insulin resistance that contributes to the fatty liver or the mash, and then you've got ADHD. And so we have our food system. So as parents, please understand we don't cause and control. We've been blamed and shamed, and we have as parents, there's so much pressure on us, but we live in this really messed up food system. There's powerful neuro marketing tactics. There's so much food cue reactivity and food noise, so let's just have a lot of compassion. These are medical issues. My background is that I Well, I'm a pediatrician. I'm a mom of three. I get all this. I've had to deconstruct a lot of this stuff myself. I've gone through a lot of health changes myself and growing up, I had a high aces score. So I really feel like, once I got to a certain age, I'm 55 now that my body just like wore my trauma. I mean, it's like that stress just has to go somewhere. So I'm a big advocate in my community if people want to advocate, because I think, you know, once we address these issues in our home and feel more agency around these health issues with our own children, then we can be advocates in the community. But I was on the board of the food bank, but with my nonprofit, my office was at the Health Department's a big public health advocacy I'm at the capital. Most people know me not as like just the childhood obesity doctor. They know me as a fears advocate for children on all sorts of issues, gun violence prevention, Medicaid access, and, you know, it's been an awesome career. I'm glad that I've been able to do all this stuff, but I really noticed with my practice, all these issues, these kids with aces, these kids with looking at social determinants of health, looking at health disparities that have become worse in the pandemic. And what happened for me was I had built my career up to where I was a leader of a population health center and founder at the Children's Hospital here, ended up having really intense whistleblower retaliation, and my attorney said, you're out, you're going to resign. It was effective immediately. That was five years ago, and then I got offered these jobs to build that for us, and I said, You know what? Like I have to get back. I haven't been helpful enough, especially for teens, because it. You look at the data and the media framing of especially adolescent obesity, it's like the severity of it keeps going up, and then they witch it, and the media blames. They'll tell a story, maybe about a teen, and it's this just weight blame and shame, and it shifts it onto them, and it's like we're not getting anywhere. And I knew in clinic teens, they don't show up, they drop off, they don't adhere, and they share nothing, you know. So once I started coaching them, I was like, Wow. I mean, they're in pain, like they are suffering, with hours on end of body, judging, almost dysmorphia, focusing on their stomach or their arms. Anyway, I found this food noise constantly. They feel like I shouldn't be eating. They've told me that time and time again I shouldn't be eating. They restrict, they binge. And I was like, this is way more severe than I ever knew about doing all this work. So I kind of had to, like, I'm asking parents to do recognize we're at a loss, kind of erase everything we've done. Yeah, sure, I can say, Oh, I'm proud of this. I'm proud of that, but the reality is, we're kind of at a loss. And so then I started seeing parents who were like, Oh, my daughter is body confident. She's size six, she dances, she has tons of friends, but I just can't help but think she wouldn't be better at a size zero. And I was like, What's going on, you know? And then I found out, I'm like, I think the parents have untreated issues. And then I saw the almond mom thing with Yolanda Hadid, and I was like, Whoa. You know, they're like subsuming their teen into this. You know, what they say is health, but is really a pursuit of thin privilege, the social capital of thinness, and it's so hard for parents, because that exists in our society.

    KC Davis 11:58

    That gave me goosebumps when you said that, because I feel like part of what's so difficult about having to help our kids navigate food choices, and you know health choices, is that, like, we have so much as parents, we have to deconstruct, and there's something really powerful when you said, like, we can watch a child, and I think a lot of parents will watch A child maybe put on a lot of weight or even some weight, and feel fear. And like you said, there is a social capital of thinness, and a lot of parents their quote, unquote, health fears have a lot less to do with health and a lot more to do with I don't want my child to lose thin privilege. Now I will stop and say, I think that there are two sides to this. There's kind of like a malevolent side, and then there's kind of like a side that I have a little bit more empathy for. Like, I think we hear that and we think, Oh, these superficial moms, these, you know, they have undiagnosed eating disorders, and they're being so they're pushing this on their kids, and I totally understand that. But I think as a parent, I understand that, like it is, in fact, more difficult to navigate the world in a larger body, like there is more discrimination, there is more stigma, there is more pain, and I don't think that every parent that feels fear around watching their child gain weight is necessarily just acting out of this kind of superficial I think there's this fear of, I don't want my kid to get bullied. I don't want my now that doesn't obviously justify doing something harmful and engaging in diet culture, but, but yeah, so let's start there. Let's start with almond moms and kind of this fat phobia and this and so if anyone doesn't know this thing about almond moms was people started posting online on tick tock videos of their moms, of kind of like, what their moms would eat in a day. And the joke was that, like, the mom would eat a handful of almonds and then be like, No, I'm good. I'm full. Or they'd go to a restaurant and they'd be like, This is what I'm eating. It'd be like a burger and fries. Be like, this is my mom's eating. And the mom would have, like a burger, no bun, and they'd be cutting, like the tiniest little sliver of meat and eat. And they like, I'm just so full. And I think it was kind of an awakening, like people realizing I thought this was normal, or I thought this was just my mom and kind of realizing, like, oh, fully grown ass women are not supposed to just be eating a handful of almonds, and realizing how many of our mothers were disordered. I mean, I feel privileged that my mom wasn't an almond mom, but tell me a little bit about some of the health myths that almond moms believe and perpetuate with their kids.

    Dr. Karla Lester 14:45

    Well, they're very tied into the energy balance theory. So that's the calories in, calories out. So we, you know, have to give ourselves a major break and have gentleness and compassion, because we were taught that in 1970 Seven Dietary Guidelines for Americans came out, and they pushed the false lipid hypothesis of Ancel Keys and who was responsible for BMI as well. So thanks, and that taught us to those guidelines were developed by politicians, but said, you know, let's demonize cholesterol. Let's demonize dietary fats. Eat low fat and high carbohydrate. And then we had, you know, the food pyramid came along. And so, you know, our bodies, we were taught are just like a, you know, calories in, calories out, machine, and I'm Gen X, and I talk on my radio show about how to deconstruct toxic 80s diet culture. And a lot of this stuff did come from the 80s. And then I play epic 80s music. So that one thing is they're very stuck in that. So it's very much about cause and control and like cause and effect. And then the myth is that, you know, a lot of these people have metabolic health privilege. Give me a break, you know. And a lot of it is like, you know, thinness is better, and they've, I'm sure they have had privileges, and a lot of it is tied into patriarchy keeping women silent. And you know, when you look at the body positive movement Health at Every Size, I mean, it's rooted in making sure that the silencing stops of marginalized voices. And

    KC Davis 16:20

    it does seem to be two things, right? Like, there's that social stuff of it's like this myth that thinner is better, thinner is more beautiful, that thinner always means healthy, that health is morally superior in all instances, right? And so it's like, okay, if I believe that socially, and I've been sold this lie scientifically, right, that all I need to do is eat fewer calories than I'm expending to maintain that thinness. And I would also guess that, like if I had those beliefs then and I was eating a certain amount of food, and I wasn't either maintaining thinness or losing weight, then the only conclusion I would have to draw is I should be taking in fewer calories. I should be taking in fewer calories, or I should, or should be exercising more. And so you get people moms in these bodies where they are or are not thin, but they've kind of like whittled themselves down to these, like, 912,000 1200 calorie days, right? Because that's what they have to do to kind of maintain that plate. So it makes sense to me that there's, like the social myths and the scientific myths. And I saw a tick tock one time that I thought was really funny, where it was talking about moms being really overly concerned with their daughters not being petite like they are. But the punch line was, she was like, it's always this petite woman who married this, like, linebacker Mom Dad, that's then, like, shocked that their daughter doesn't come out super petite. That's like, You married a linebacker, and that's neither here nor there. I just thought that was a funny observation. So observation.

    Dr. Karla Lester 18:02

    I've seen this. I get those parents,

    KC Davis 18:07

    yeah, I've heard you say before this kind of you bust this myth by basically saying that you can be metabolically healthy at any weight.

    Dr. Karla Lester 18:16

    Yeah, yes, you can be metabolically healthy at any way. You can be metabolically unhealthy at any way. You can have insulin resistance and be thin. You can have type two. I mean, some people produce more insulin. Some people, it's super interesting science. Some people produce more, you know, glucose, and so they're going to be more like, have more diabesogenic or obesogenic. And so when you look at genetics and risk factors, you shouldn't base it on weight as much as you should say, does anybody have type two diabetes? Did they have pre diabetes? Did they have fatty liver disease? They have metabolic syndrome? Did they have hypertension of early cardiovascular disease? You know, let's just get into the actual health issues, and then what are your metabolic health numbers? You know, what's showing up on your exam, but also what's the data? And then, what are the causes, comorbidities, contributing factors? That's what I focus on in my practice. It's different for everybody, and it changes over time too. And so it's much more interesting way of practicing. And obviously it's not going to be a singular fix and solve. So we look at all sorts of ways that we work on it. But the thing is, it's healthism, right? The almond moms get into what's healthism, and a lot of people, I've seen a lot of videos that say my mom's an almond mom, and they're actually just kind of a healthy, health conscious person, which is fine, and they absolutely don't even put it on their their daughter or their child at all. So they're like, do you? And they. Cook and this stuff. So I'm like, I've put in the comments they're not an almond mom, you know. And then some mom and mom people say, Yeah, my mom's an almond mom during the day, but then she binges at night, you know, in secret. And then some have absolutely, that's an eating disorder, it is. And that's a lot have. These are just, you know, is it really parent who has an untreated eating disorder, and then they're subsuming their child into it, because that's very attractive, and it's with this is my main concern with the compounded meds. That's what we're seeing. It's my biggest fear right now is that these almond moms are getting these compounded meds for their adolescents and maybe even younger children, and some nefarious companies are giving them out. And it's just very scary. Yeah,

    KC Davis 20:51

    let's talk about that for a second. You know, I worked in addiction for a really long time, and there's a lot of comorbidity between addiction and eating disorders, and we, what we know is that the most lethal mental health disorder in the world are eating disorders. That is the most deadly mental health issue that you can have. And what's frustrating to me around the discourse of GLP one medications is it's I don't think that they're a panacea. I don't think that they're evil. I don't think anything about that. I just wish there was more conversation about the risk factor of the interplay between those medications and eating disorders, because using medications in eating disorder is not new. We had tons of clients that were using tons of laxatives that would drink a ton of coffee for the appetite suppressant of the caffeine that would get on certain medications on purpose for the appetite suppressant. Like, those things aren't new. And what's so interesting to me, like, I went to the doctor one time, like, so I have an addiction history and one of the most but I also have a problem with one of the discs in my back, and every once in a while, like once a year or whatever, it compresses a nerve and gives me like, level 10 pain, and it is so incredibly difficult for me to access pain meds. And I have 20 years of sobriety, and it literally took me 15 years before I was even willing to go on pain meds for surgeries, right? And it is so difficult to access pain meds, even when you need them, when you are disabled, when you have chronic pain, when you are post surgery, especially as a woman, because nobody believes women about pain and the roadblocks that I had to go through to try and access needed pain medication. And here's the thing, it was like, I get it because it's a reaction right to the opioid epidemic that we caused when we were not being thoughtful about prescribing narcotic medication, but we've almost like over corrected. And what I think is interesting is that it is so difficult for me to access narcotics when I legitimately need them, and I've had multiple doctors offer me GLP ones without doing any lab work first. Wow. And it's kind of bananas, right? And listen, what like this was me kind of talking about some like, hormonal issues that I have, some metabolic issues that I have, and that's come up in conversation, and I don't have a like fundamental feeling for or against using them, and I'm willing to have that conversation. But it was wild to me that you know you could jump on an app and in 30 seconds somebody will prescribe it to you. You can have a doctor offer it to you and not even do lab work first. And I'm like, How are we not making the connection? I can't get pain meds when I need them, and yet this medication has been being offered to me before we're even getting to the point of trying to figure out if I need it. And it's like, Well, what we're probably going to do, honestly, is eventually when we realize, culturally, what's happening. I'm afraid we're going to do the same thing we've done with the opioid epidemic, and overcorrect and now people that need the medic like it's just really frustrating, and it was so ironic to look at the interplay. And they're similar in some ways, in terms of they serve a medical purpose, but we need to be aware that they can be used detrimentally in the course of a lot of mental health issues. Anyways, I forgot why I brought that up, but I think we were kind of talking about the science myths that almond moms kind of cling to, and this idea that skin, if thinner, is always healthier, then that means that anything you do in pursuit of thinness, like, ergo, that's okay, and that's healthy, and that's not going to be detrimental. And then can you talk a little bit about, because I feel like one that I was raised with that is that, like, it kind of goes with, like, I always thought that weight gain is what caused type two diabetes. And so when doctors would say, like, you really need to lose some weight, otherwise you're going to get type two diabetes, this idea that like weight gain is causing and you'll see it, they'll be like, oh, people who have this much adipose tissue are this much more risk. And it's almost like this conflation of cause and correlation. And can you unpack that a little bit? Because that was a big turning point for me. Yeah, such

    Dr. Karla Lester 24:56

    a great question. I do want to clear. Verify that. I do have several patients who do really well, and the parents do on the medication, and it does help address their metabolic health issues, and we're looking at biomarkers, and it's reversing their insulin resistance. They're more responsive, and weight loss can be there or not, but we anyway so it can be. And the also, the cost of the medications is a huge barrier to access. And I think we're in this toxic consumerism. I mean, everything is consumerism, singular fix and certainty, right? And

    KC Davis 25:41

    I think one of the myths that I think is kind of central to talking about what almond moms believe, is that like weight gain causes health issues, and that like obesity causes and by the way, I want to just side note I'm using the term obesity because that is like what the medical language uses, and it has like a medical definition. I am aware that it is not a term that many of the movements that I associate with, like, used. So I just wanted to say, like, I'm aware of that I'm not intending to offend or not be nuanced. But I just feel like, you know, talking to a doctor trying to refer to, like, the medical definition, this belief that it is the cause of type two diabetes, or, you know, I've even been told, because I have PCOS, that like losing weight cure my PCOS, right? And so talk to us a little bit about how those are myths,

    Dr. Karla Lester 26:29

    yeah. So the cause of type two diabetes is insulin resistance. And there was a scientist, Gerald ravine. He was at, I think that's his name. He was at Stanford, and he won the Nobel Prize for his research that showed that showed metabolic syndrome X that became insulin resistance. Metabolic Syndrome is the cause of these metabolic diseases and cardiovascular disease. And it's so interesting to see, if you follow the literature and you know how these myths take hold, and the attachment to energy balance theory, I fight the gym bros on tick tock about this, because they're obsessed with it. Get a new calorie deficit, calories in, calories out. And you just need to lose weight to resolve these issues. It's just really interesting to see how that in the medical field, especially in healthcare I find still today, a lot of even specialists endocrinologist they don't address insulin resistance in patients, and they don't know enough about insulin resistance. We talk about how doctors we don't get any training in nutrition, which is true in medical school or residency, but that we don't have training in insulin resistance. We don't have training in focusing on what are the actual metabolic health issues that are happening? And then we give out, eat less, move more advice. Bullet point, like compliance advice and like BMI, for instance, we've used that as this just one that was chosen in, I think, 1994 so that we would have a screening tool so we could assess and that was recommended by the expert panel for pediatrics to follow BMI. So everything was put on it as a screening tool, and then you would be based upon the percentile of BMI that would determine your risk factors, like what labs are ordered, and then BMI decreasing BMI is the goal, and it just, I have to say, it's a horrible way to practice medicine, because, you know, I was following these expert committee recommendations for years, and nobody was getting better. It's exhausting. You're doing these notes. You're like, why am I here?

    KC Davis 29:00

    And is it true that the weight itself is what causes things like type two diabetes or cardiovascular disease? Or do we have that relationship? Wrong?

    Dr. Karla Lester 29:10

    I believe that no type two diabetes is caused by insulin resistance, okay,

    KC Davis 29:16

    but is gaining weight what causes insulin resistance?

    Dr. Karla Lester 29:19

    No, it perpetuates a cycle. So what happens is it starts. So if you have a genetic predisposition, which is the most powerful thing, then we've had bad recommendations for what to eat, and we have our food system with high processed carbohydrates, refined sugars, trans fats and salt, and they created this addictive trifecta, and there's a lot of food politics that goes into this. And then what happens is we've been eating low fat, high carbohydrate, which has and then we should eat frequently. That's what we've been taught. And so that's what's contributed if we didn't have our food system and the lousy. Is advice and a bad science, then we wouldn't have as many people struggling with insulin resistance. So insulin resistance, so Insulin is a hormone we think about when you think about blood sugar. Insulin resistance is an adaptation of the body. The body can adapt. We just want to keep status quo. That's what our body wants status quo. There's no agenda that our body has. So when we eat anything, our blood sugar goes up. Blood glucose goes up. Insulin is released from the pancreas to connect to insulin receptors on the cell membrane, and then opens up a channel the blood sugar, blood glucose is led into the cell so that we can make ATP, our body's energy source. When the blood sugar goes down, there's a feedback loop, so then the pancreas is kicked in to stop releasing insulin. It's how it's supposed to work. We're insulin sensitive. We're insulin responsive when we have insulin resistance, so maybe we have a genetic predisposition, and there have been some, a ton of studies on insulin resistance. It's just interesting, like what gets out in the media, what's taken hold in healthcare. We could have had it differently. We could have had a more effective way of approaching it, and it makes me sick, but anyway, we're doing better now. So what happens is, when we are told to eat high carbohydrates, so more insulin is going to be released when we eat sugar, right? And then it's going to spike up, and then our blood sugar is going to crash, and then we're going to feel like, like one donut begets another donut, right? It's like the sugar Chase. And so we're going to eat and then, so eat more, and then, so what's going to happen is Insulin is a powerful storage hormone, and what if we have high insulin levels around all the time? Well, we're going to be very dangerously hypoglycemic, because insulin lowers blood sugar. So what happens is there's a change on the of the receptor on the cell membrane, so it's just not as responsive. It doesn't let as many glucose molecules in to flood the cell, and you're not dangerously hypoglycemic. So then in your bloodstream, you have higher levels of insulin and you have higher blood sugar. So what does your pancreas do? It kicks out more insulin to overcome it. Then that kicks in the obesity cycle, because insulin is a powerful storage hormone. It stores everything is fat and keeps your fat stores on a lockdown. The best book is the obesity code by Dr Jason Fung. I mean, if you want to learn about all the hormonal stuff, because, you know, a lot of my viral posts are on it's hormonal. It's not simply caloric. It's not You're not a calories and calories out machine. Once the cycle starts, then you get the effects of obesity on your body too. So then we're getting inflammation. We have more risk for cancers and some of the chronic issues and diseases that are associated with obesity. So, but it starts with, you know, and it can be really complex interplay,

    KC Davis 32:55

    yeah. And I'm curious like, how many of those health things, like, I'm thinking back to COVID, where they used to talk about, you know, people who had a certain amount of body fat percentage were more likely to have these high risk factors. And I remember there was this discourse around, you know, that everyone took that to mean, C It's unhealthy to have a bigger body. But nobody was really talking about, like, You talk a lot about weight stigma in, like, the medical world that, like, it genuinely affects the quality of medical care that you get, so that, like, a good percentage of that isn't, oh, their body is just, you know, more broken and is going to get COVID, like, going to die from COVID. It's like they're not getting the same quality of care that a person in a thinner body is getting when they have COVID. And that actually might be the main risk factor, right? Or that, you know, there are underlying health issues that are causing the weight gain, and it's those underlying health issues that are the risk factor, not the literal amount of, like, body fat composition someone has,

    Dr. Karla Lester 34:04

    yeah, I mean, it's tricky, because there are definitely issues. I mean, we're looking at, like, with COVID, there's so many pulmonary I mean, it's a virus that affects your lungs. You know, that was an issue. And so for people who have obesity and struggle with that, that's really tough. That made it really hard. That was my first really viral post was medical gaslighting due to weight stigma and bias during COVID is dangerous because there was a comedian on Tiktok who went in thought he had COVID. It was before we had vaccines or anything, and so he was he said, Why is everything any super funny? I had been following him. Why is everything about weight, you know, just watch the weight with the doc. He's like, Doc, I gotta, you know, I got a fever, I got a cough, I can't breathe, you know, it's like, everything looks good. Just watch the weight. You know, it's like, I'm not gonna test you for COVID. I'm not gonna. And I was like, Wait, that's like, wrong. I mean, that was weight bias. And so, yeah, I mean, our society. Agriculture, we shouldn't be surprised, unfortunately, and even in the medical system that they're going to weaponize it. I mean, there's so much weight bias. And my daughter and I actually did a kind of a qualitative study on that viral Tik Tok post about medical gas lighting. And because I woke up to, like, 1000 comments of similar experiences due to weight, and a lot of them were gender based during pregnancy with, like, postpartum depression. They were saying, you know, they were really struggling. And they were like, you just need to lose your postpartum weight, your baby weight, COVID, PCOS, you know? I mean, it's just like, on and on and on, these really chronic people with lupus who had been ignored, people with cancers, who had been told you just need to lose weight and then your problems will go away. And they ended up having, you know, some advanced cancer. And so I think we're obviously very messed up there. Yeah,

Christy Haussler
124: A Tale of Two Birders and Other Niche Tea

This is a lighthearted episode–because we all can use a break from all the heaviness around us. I’m welcoming Caroline, “The Niche Tea Lady,” to the show. Join us!

Show Highlights:

  • Understanding “niche tea”

  • Caroline’s favorite story of niche tea: the amazing tale of two birders

  • The biggest plot twist in a niche tea deep dive

  • Memorable niche tea surprise endings

  • Pyramids, video games, and the nuances of content creation

  • Everyone loves an underdog story!

  • “Discords” and weirdo behavior

  • The funniest niche tea in Caroline’s experience: a published back-and-forth between two high-level academics

  • The most viral niche tea stories in Caroline’s experience: birding and beekeeping

Resources and Links:

Connect with Caroline: TikTok, X, Instagram, and YouTube

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:00

    Casey, hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to Struggle. Care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and today we're gonna have a little bit of a light hearted episode. I feel like we all deserve a little break from the heaviness, and so I'm here with a very special guest, the niche tea lady Caroline, thank you for being here.

    Caroline 0:21

    Thank you for having me.

    KC Davis 0:24

    Okay, so you run a Tiktok account where you post about niche tea. Can you explain what that is to those of us above 35

    Caroline 0:33

    got it? Yes. Niche tea is think of it as like if you hyper focus on drama, and you jump from story to story. It's that but each story is based around a different hobby or online community or niche, basically anything you could call it a niche. So something that I found myself doing a lot on my own was just usually on YouTube. I'll find some hole of content to fall into, where it's relating to something, right, something that I probably haven't engaged with before, but I'm very interested in kind of just getting people's opinions about it. And when that happens with drama, I found myself with no one to talk to about it, because it was always so specific, and there's all this background on it. And so I made niche tea as a way to just talk about those things as I hyper focus on them and jump from thing to thing. Yeah,

    KC Davis 1:25

    this is like, I'll find myself in like, a YouTube rabbit hole, and then my husband will come home, and I'll be like, there is so much drama between people that like to quilt in quilting circles and people that feel like quilting should be an A one, you know, a solo hobby. And I'll just, like, force him to listen to it. He'll be like, I don't care about quilting drama at all, exactly,

    Caroline 1:44

    and neither do I necessarily, or at least, I don't care about quilting, but I care about this,

    KC Davis 1:51

    but when the tea is hot, yeah, the tea is hot. Okay, so, Caroline, I just, I invited you here today because I genuinely just wanted you to regale, regale us with, like your top favorite stories of niche tea. Got it paint us a word picture.

    Caroline 2:08

    Oh, my God, that's a tricky one. I think one easy one that I could choose actually would be the episode about bird watching, from the bird watching community, from that one so many people were interested in. That one I love. A big part of what I love is what loving the response I get from people about these things. But that particular one involved, it was basically a story of two men who reached the world record for bird sighting. I believe it was specifically sightings, because sometimes they count. I've learned bird calls as count as like. That's like the difference between birding and bird watching. Birding includes if you hear them, apparently, right? And so basically, there's one guy in the field in the hobby who's been big into the hobby. He's well known throughout the community, and he was going to break the world record for the most, let's say, seen birds in the world, different species. And then he was planning it out, like a year in advance. He was He knew what his plans were going to be and which birds he was going to hit and what the plan was. And then a couple months before, it out of nowhere, this challenger shows up. Who when you watch birds. When you do bird watching, it's not something like, everybody knows everybody, because you're only not that many people are like, routinely logging their bird sightings and talking about it and doing all that. So first of

    KC Davis 3:32

    all, where are they logging their bird sightings? Like, do they have to take a picture of it? There

    Caroline 3:35

    are, there's no like, Review Board of whether or not,

    KC Davis 3:39

    is this the honor system. Caroline, is this the honor system? Yes, there are

    Caroline 3:43

    a number of different websites that are neutral, kind of third party, you know, places where people can come log their sightings, and then also discussion boards and things along those lines. So this guy comes out of nowhere and just logs like nearly 10,000 birds in like a couple days or something, and claims that he's just been he claimed he was just, he's been doing this his life, too. He just hadn't put it anywhere online. And no one has ever heard of him, and it's very hard to find any record of him. I looked into it. And so the original guy who was building toward this, the one the community knew. He said, You know what? Instead of debating whether or not this new guy, I believe his name is Jason, and whether or not Jason was is real or not, you know, I'm just gonna assume he is, and I'm gonna adjust my timetable accordingly, like he even openly said that he's like, so now I'm going to, you know, I'm gonna treat this as though it is real, because I can, you know, like, and I can adjust things if I need to. So

    KC Davis 4:45

    is Jason's claim that he's been, like, analog tracking his birds, and that he just uploaded them all, like, logged them all into the website at once.

    Caroline 4:55

    Yes, that he's been doing this for years and years and years, just like. Uh, just like the main guy, who was a diplomat, and I'm trying to remember his name, but so the primary guy decides to move up a bunch of his travel and he starts, he's a diplomat, actually, so that helps him get to different places across the world. But he ends up meeting the getting that 10,000th watch like he as he moved his timetable up, Jason did too. So he kept seeing, you know, he would originally go, I cannot remember his name. I'm gonna call him Michael. He would originally go to a location, and then he'd find out Jason had just gone to a different location, or a similar thing, you know. And it was, ended up being this neck and neck thing, and about six months, at least earlier than when the primary guy was going to finalize his, you know, actually do the whole thing, have his friends and family there, you know, and see his 10,000 stop.

    KC Davis 5:53

    He had, like, a, he had, like, a little award ceremony, like he was gonna, like, see his 10,000th bird, with his, like, family and friends around, yeah,

    Caroline 6:01

    because it's like, a, it's like, a lifetime achievement, like, it's a big deal. Like, people were all like, very, you know, it was a thing that he'd worked toward for such a long time.

    KC Davis 6:09

    And is the diplomat showing his work? Like, is he taking pictures, or he's also on the honor system, also

    Caroline 6:14

    on the honor system, but he's well, but we believe him. We yes, there's nobody's doubted him that I seen is my understanding of reputation, yes, and he's also been

    KC Davis 6:25

    mainstay of the Birding community. Exactly, he's a pillar, so pillar of the Birding community. We can trust

    Caroline 6:33

    one person. We can trust him. There's no reason to question him. He's somebody who would have people with him. You know, while he's going on these hunts for a particular bird, he's somebody who travels very frequently for his job, and there's enough evidence to corroborate that he's telling the truth. I'm sure there's potentially one or two that maybe people couldn't like, weren't physically there for. But generally, he's trusted. We're not worried about him. But for the Jason guy, we don't know anything about him. Nobody knows him. Nobody knows anything about you know what his theoretical fines were. And so there are people though, the diplomat is moving forward, and he's like, I'm just going to assume you know. And like I said, he ended up getting there about six months earlier than he had originally planned, and he wasn't able to make it kind of a celebration of this lifetime achievement the way he wanted, because he had to change his plans, and where he ended up finding his last bird was not anywhere local, so it was something that he had to do last minute, and wouldn't have been able to organize other people for. But even so, Jason claimed to have beat him by like eight hours.

    KC Davis 7:40

    So he's just dogging his steps. Yes, really

    Caroline 7:44

    hard. And even so, again, the diplomat is very diplomatic. Shocking. He posts, you know, a statement about, you know, reaping his 10,000th and that regardless of whatever else is going on, this is a big achievement for him. He is very proud. He said, thank you to a bunch of people like his wife and like people in the community who've been very supportive and whom he's built relationships with over the years. Meanwhile, there was a single article on a website for a traveling like guide tour company in South America, and it said congratulations to Jason for for beating the world record

    and seeing 10,000 being the first person in the world to hit 10,000 and do the whole thing. And it was written by him, if you look at the up,

    and people are like, what is this? So by the time I get into this, people are going through, you know, people have been going through for the last several months his bird list in addition to this. And so by the time I jump into this, that article is gone from that website, I can find traces of it. You know, like Google will hold caches of things. So something hip, if people ask me a lot like, how I find some of my information, especially for stuff that's gone the way, that machine is obviously a really good tool to use. If people aren't familiar with what that is, it's a website where you can put in a URL for a page, and then it'll archive the state of that page as many times as you want to do it. So if you want to archive something for the future because you think it might change, you can go there and have a manual archive done of it, and then if anything changes on that web page, you can go back to this website, the Wayback Machine, find the URL, pick the date, and you'll see a living state of what it was at that time. But another easy one for stuff that gets deleted real fast is simply that Google search engine doesn't live look up everything on every website all the time. It's storing it everyone smiles. Think of it, the same as Google Maps when you do street view. That's not your house yesterday, that's. Your house the last time the Google car came through and took a picture of your house, right? So it's the same thing on the search engine. And so when things have changed like, oh, they 404, that page last night, if you need to see something on that page, you can still search it, and you won't be able to click the link when it comes up, but it will still come up with some details. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So the preview, if there's a Featured Snippet, anything along those, like those standard things that help you from SEO, those things get cashed. So I've had situations where people are like, Oh, I can't see, you know, I can't tell what the name of this he was associated with this person, and I can't find like he took it down? Well, I've searched people's websites and found like, for example, like their PR page that still had details on it, because it's the cache of it. So I could find, if I look up somebody's name, and potentially, like their web, like this person, whatever PR this you can get to a point where the preview will show you what you searched for. So you can see in the preview that name might be listed under a bunch of lists of names. And now you can say, so for your website, you had this page. Now when I click on it, it goes to a 404, or it's changed. But at the time, you can see that it was here that you've changed that it's kind of a neat thing. So by the time I go to do that, the article is gone, but I could still see the 404, of it, basically, and confirm that he did write that. And then right at the same time, I'm also seeing that the bird community's kind of investigators, the people who've chosen to go through the 10,000 bird list, found a whole host of different birds that were improbable, like very improbable, and then a whole other host that it would be shocking if they were not wrong or false some way, like birds that were have been assumed to have gone extinct, birds that would have it would have been a newsworthy event for a confirmed sighting, that type of stuff, like last seen in the 30s. You know, that type of stuff. So, in combination with so there's that coming out about Jason, also this only, the only place this gets reported on is this one travel website. People are like, What do you mean? What's happening? Who are these people? What's happening? Apparently, the travel website just got company, just got inundated, and they ended up putting out a separate statement that was like, We did work with this man. He came to us, we do bird tours. He did one with us, and then later he wrote that article, and he gave it to us, and said, Would you publish this on your website? And we were like, yeah, he's worked with us before, so yeah, but we're not trying to say anything. I can't tell whether or not to feel bad for them. I kind of do, though, because I think they were just like a client wanted this fine, you know. So I felt a little bad for them. They had to put out a separate statement, Jason still didn't. He posted like, one or two direct responses to people on birding websites, but for the most part, he does not have an active social presence in any way that you can figure out. So he's just gone silent. He's been silent. That's what I'm saying, is like, didn't exist. Like he when I say he came out of nowhere. I don't mean like, oh, we just weren't paying attention. And look, this guy's got pictures of birds all over his Instagram. And it turns out he's been logging like, he doesn't have social profiles that I was able to find, or anything that where he talks about any of this, or if, like, they're very locked down. If so, so he's not someone who's out there, like on his Twitter talking about his side of it. He literally, like, doesn't he's not part of the conversation, except in these very controlled, weird little areas where it's like, I'm gonna put my birds here and then leave them, and then I'm not seeing back and forth with him talking with anyone, and then him say, like, releasing an article on a website, but not posting anything on social media, or like, doing, Like, just the vehicles he's using to talk about these things, every move is bizarre, is the point. I still only vaguely believe he's a real person. Supposedly, though he emails the diplomat and concedes because of some of the questions relating to, again, newsworthy, extinct birds, and he kind of throws out, like a yeah, maybe, you know, I he's like, he kind of throws some wishy washy I'm gonna let this go because, you know, I'm taking the high road. And yeah, I, you know, he said I'm gonna be the bigger man, right? That that was the tone of the email to the diplomat. And the diplomat was like, he just posted. He's very, again, very communicative with, like, his friends, family, fans, whatever, community. And so he posts on his Facebook like, you know, I got this, you know, this is a nice email from Jason. It's very kind of him, whatever. And everybody's like, you're being nice. Just it was very funny. He is very much a diplomat, but

    KC Davis 14:56

    that is a wild I feel really bad for the diplomat. Can you imagine, just like, being some guy that, like, that's just your life? Is you just a birder, and some dude comes out of nowhere and just totally like, yucks your yum and rains on your parade? I mean, the man wanted his friends and family there when he saw his last bird. Yeah,

    Caroline 15:15

    I know. And that was a big sentiment that a lot of people had coming off of this story, that comment I got a lot like, man, that's rough, you know, and he was still so gracious about it, given everything. And as loathe as I am to support government entities in specific situations, I'm gonna give him this because, yeah, he just seemed like a guy who just likes birds. And why would you do this, even if this was real, even if you take everything he says at face value, even if that was me, I feel like I would still hesitate, because, man, that's rough. Let the

    KC Davis 15:49

    man have his win. So okay, here's so that makes me think of this question, what's like the biggest plot twist you've ever had in a niche T deep dive, the

    Caroline 15:58

    one that I think had a good twist to it. Was the, I guess the whole story was kind of the twist, but it was, I like the academic ones, and there's one those are some of the really fun ones, because usually people don't hear those unless they're close to it, right? Like, it's not a thing that you necessarily hear a lot about, is what's happening in academia. But there was one about it turned out there was this, like, big discovery or claim that had come out about the oldest pyramid in the world being in it, think it was in the Philippines, and the paper behind it, and it was a whole discussion about that. And that had been something, there was this big paper that had come out, and had been something that had been very highly regarded in the archeology field. It had been peer reviewed. It had, like, all of this stuff. And then basically it turned out way later that all of these different things, that this initial group of people, led by this one particular guy, the researcher, had claimed everything they had discovered could be explained by other reasons. And then it also came out that the peer reviewers weren't archeologists, they were all different, or weren't geologists, like they weren't correct in the field that they were in. And that was such a weird one, because it was just like 20 years later, like it was a significant amount of time, and that was just crazy, honestly, like that whole situation, like the idea that it could go through, because there's so much rigor around academic papers, that one was just such a weird it was bonkers to hear every single thing that was in this particular piece of research that took so long, took so much manpower, took all of these different things, and all of it falling kind of apart, was just a little a little bonkers to be able to hear about from the people who actually were in this area. And it throws off so much about what people thought of, what archeology was like, it changes some of the developmental pieces of what we think humanity went through, like, what our actual timeline looks like. That's like a big deal, right? So like, because we thought that, like, in order for it to be a man made pyramid where it was, it implies a level of technological like ability of humans, right? Like that just would not have made sense at that time. And it implies a lot about the area and the what people would have lived, and whether or not it would have been something like we were at a point where we were able to do that there, and how that would impact everything in that area. So it's the difference between it being, like, I think it was some massive, like, 20,000 years old to like, Oh no, actually, the oldest pyramid is like 5000 years old, maybe somewhere in that range. Okay,

    KC Davis 18:51

    so my next question is, like, Tell me some niche tea that had, like, the best twist to it, or, like, the best, like, surprise ending. Yeah,

    Caroline 19:00

    something about niche tea. That is, I think people get frustrated about but something that is that I is something that's kind of inherent to it, is that there's almost never part two. I moved I've moved on. I try and wait until there's something really interesting to talk about, or I lead people to other places where they can continue to dive into it. But, you know, it's an ADHD rabbit hole. I have now expelled that energy and I'm leaving one of the few times that I've done a follow up was because there was a twist when entirely against what the original video was, and I was, I felt lied to and irritated. And that was one that was, it was about genshin impact, which is this, it's a gotcha game. It's like, I think they're, I can't tell if they're mostly mobile or not, but it's a video game. Doesn't matter. People play it online. People make content around it. And so the original story was, there are a lot of YouTubers who make content around genshin, and they are people who work with the company that owns this game. And. So the company will give you know, contracts to certain people to talk about it, which is obviously very helpful if you are a full time content creator, if you're somebody who and especially if you're specific to this video game for the most part, then yeah, you want to get in with the company, because that's going to help promote your ability to continue making money doing this thing. The original conversation was, and the original video was about the company released something for the game. People in the community who make content about the game had mixed opinions on like, like, some people thought it was, we're saying, Oh yeah, we love this. Some people, a lot of people, were saying, We've been not only is this bad, it's been bad, and they keep doing things that are bad, and we're getting frustrated. Somebody just casually made a joke about that, like said, it was a tweet that it said the duality of man, and it was, it showed two screenshots from YouTube, of one saying, this is the best update ever. I love it. And the next one like, this is the worst update ever, I hate and so it's just a really funny like, Look at this. But this tweet, this tweet started an absolute Apocalypse within the community, because everybody started jumping in and saying, Yeah, everybody who are posting positive content about this update are shills. They've been paid off. They're not people you can rely on. They're not people who you can actually like. They're not going to give real criticism because they're paid to do this, and very likely they have a non disparagement, or at the very least, they're not going to get they know. They're more likely to get more contracts with the company if they say good things about about the so it

    KC Davis 21:37

    wasn't like so people didn't think that it was genuinely a split opinion, like, Oh, it's just a polarizing game feature. Like, people kind of immediately went to, like, oh, the people who are giving positive reviews are because they're on comp. Now, do we know did we know that? Did we know that only the Okay, so that was just our assumption. Yeah.

    Caroline 21:55

    So that was the assumption. And the stupid thing about that is, like, this is a jumping off point to the actual thing. So like, this is, we're not even there. We're not even there yet. This was such a hard one to do because, like, I had to go down, like, real into the into the weeds on this one to figure it out. Yes, oh my god. So this is

    KC Davis 22:11

    like me explaining, like, sometimes I come across a tick tock video that is so funny, like

    Caroline 22:16

    a ninth tier meme, yes, and

    KC Davis 22:18

    I really want to show my husband, and he's not even on tick tock. He doesn't even have a Facebook so, like, I literally, I will sometimes go and, like, save other videos, and there'll be, like, six videos before I get to the video I actually wanted to laugh at. So be like, Okay, so there's this trend. Here's what it looks like, but then, like, there was this iteration of the trend that looked like this. Now there's this person that nobody likes, but, and it's like, I have to explain all nine layers, and it's never funny by the time I get to, like, that point, but I insist on doing it anyways. I feel justified.

    Caroline 22:50

    And like, No, trust me. Like, next time, next time, you'll get it. Share this joy with me, damn it, right? I always think about, when I think about that, not to stay on the tangent, but like, I always think about the memes, like in April, where it's like, you know, like, it's like, right now and it shows rain, but soon, and it's ramen, and it's just an uncooked block of ramen. Gonna be May, it's gonna be May. So, like, you either get it or you don't get and, like, how do I explain that? Would that be still being funny? Like, it's funny inherently, but you have to get there on your own, yeah? So we've got people now going back and forth, saying, yeah, and there's actually two full camps. So a little bit to what you said. They're the people who were aligning to the guy who was complaining about the things that they didn't like about this was a patch to this game, because it's an online games. It was a series of updates things the guy who was saying, you know, and the people who aligned with the guy who was negative were like, you all are shills. Nobody's legitimately criticizing this game. These are bad things. Like, even if you want to be positive, even if you want to, you know, make positive content, like, we should get better from these companies. And they keep getting away with it because people like this keep making this type of content, reviewing it when you're not giving a good faith assessment of what's going on. And then people on the other side are like, I just want to play the game that I enjoy and see people talk about it in a joyful way. I don't want to be this is my escape. This is whatever. Like, yeah, not everything's perfect, but like, I don't want it to be a hateful space. It's a gotcha game, you know. Like, I just want to let me have fun with this and not worry about these things. And, yeah, if we can't change the frustration, then let's just keep a positive spin on it. I enjoy the content more that way. So that's what it originally started as. And the people who made those videos that were excited have no issue with each other, not really like they were, pretty much. One of them was known to be a guy who does positive spins on things, and I don't know, he wasn't considered necessarily to be a shill, but he was considered be somebody who was positive in nature. But because of this, people started taking sides. People were also still mad at the company for different reasons. This is a community of, like, a ton of people. People go back and forth. It just keeps escalating. And then people start getting mad at the content creators and start trying to out them for different stuff and all. All of that ends up coming to two completely different people. One of them comes out and says, so you've got atsu, and then you've got braxophone. Is the name of the other guy. Brax the phone atsu is well known within the community. He's one of the leading content creators, and he is well known to have connections within the company, like his roommate worked there, or, like, that type of stuff. No one in his family, but he's friends with these people, so that's also, it's not really contested that he gets benefits from that, right? He comes out and he's like, Hey guys, can we all, like, calm this down? And he's talking to the guy who's very negative, who's kind of riling people up and calling everybody shills. And he's like, Hey, look, I know you don't like me. I know you know we don't get along whatever. I think we can bring this all down. I'd love to talk to you because I think I know why you don't like me. Because this other person has told, I think someone's told you some negative things about me. I'd love to have a conversation with you because, like, I promise you a lot of that's not true. In response to that Brax, the phone comes out and like, Hey, I'm that guy that you're referring to. Here's an eight page Google document about how I think you have been specifically sabotaging my entire career in this space as a content creator because of you don't like me and you have connections. He basically says they had a series of interactions as he got bigger in the space as a content creator, he met this guy at SU, so braxophone was up and coming at SU is already very well established and has good connections. Brax the phone basically says, like, I was trying to get to know you, and like we had these misunderstandings at these parties, like I was trying to do XYZ thing, it didn't come off well. Basically, they just kind of didn't vibe. Braxton really wanted to be closer to atsu, and basically said, atsu decided he didn't like me. He had a click. He's been actively sabotaging my career, and he's blacklisted me. He's gotten me blacklisted with the company so that I can't get contracts. This was, like, a big deal to me, because I'm like, oh, like, that's okay. That's like a thing that's actually right. Like, Okay, now we're not just complaining because, like, we're YouTubers yelling at each other, like, guys spend time in commentary YouTube spheres like I'm used to, that that's normal. This is, that's, this is, this is another level of

    KC Davis 27:06

    whatever. This is, IRL

    Caroline 27:08

    in real life, exactly. This is bottom line type of stuff, you know. So atsu responds to this, but by the time he does, atsu is pretty well not like it seems like, by a lot of other content creators, and so a lot of people came like, had come forward and were like, at manipulative. Like, atsu is really Clicky. He does have his group of people that he hangs out with, and he was really exclusionary to this guy. And this does suck. And it just kind of kept going. And atsu basically got kind of nuked by this, like, he just kind of stepped back and he tried to defend himself. People didn't really pay attention. Everybody kind of was like, out to was one of a bunch of people who all kind of got negative feedback, because everyone's like, all of you suck. Like, all of this comes together to suck for all of for everyone involved. So, like, we're just over it, come to find out. So like, three months later, Azu had, okay, that's the original. That's kind of how it ended. And it was just like, okay, like nobody, like people were kind of basically on Brax the phone side, like, this is, what an awful thing to do. Like, you're, you're hurting someone's career because you don't like them. And, you know, Brax, the phones document outlined, like the times they met, and the reasons things were awkward, and you talked about being, I believe, I believe you talked about being autistic and having struggling with the social cues and that type of thing. So, you know, it looked bad, as far as otse was concerned. That's pretty much where it kind of just fizzled out from there. But I was just like, this was a lot that came out of something very small, like, literally, a patch, update on a game. Got it so good? Atsu, this major player kind of like, disappears. He's just like, okay, yeah, he just steps back and kind of falls into the background, while the other guys kind of just keep on trucking right. Several months later, atsu comes forward and is like, I'm quitting. This whole thing destroyed my life. My wife of 10 years had been cheating on me. I am now getting divorced, like unrelated, like these things. Just he drops this bomb and is like, this all sucked, and he talked in it was literally like a 40 some page Google that there are just so many Google Docs and they're all so long. But in this next one, in this, I

    KC Davis 29:20

    mean, that's so dorky. I love it so much. People like battling online with Google Docs. It's

    Caroline 29:25

    so common. The joke, Mr. President, another Google doc has hit the tower is, like, actually, super common.

    KC Davis 29:33

    That is a fun I feel

    Caroline 29:34

    like a horrible person, but I actually, like, find anything where it turns into like, oh, it's the Pentagon. Like, no, they have the Pentagon.

    KC Davis 29:39

    Like, no, listen, the rule about 911 jokes is that if you were sitting in a classroom, like, if you were in school when you had to hear that news, and it like, rocked your child, you now get to make the 911 jokes.

    Caroline 29:54

    That's what I thought. I was like my dad worked, like, right near the Pentagon, and I had to, like, go make sure he was alive. And. Come home and, like, I remember,

    KC Davis 30:01

    yeah, like, if you were pulled out of freshman English with that were under a terrorist attack and had to hide in the locker room, you get to just make the funny joke about Mr. President. Another google doc has hit,

    Caroline 30:14

    okay, it's just so funny. So in this new one, I'm kind of going through it, he's talking about his wife. I feel bad, you know, and he's going back through and explaining stuff. He goes back to talk to Brax the phone again, and he's like, here's the thing, though, you and I, there's one section in this doc where he says, You and I both understand that you currently have a contract with the company, and you have and you and I both know that, and I didn't come forward and out you as having this, because I kept thinking you were gonna make the right decision and do this and say that this is the case. And like to me that I feel like that hit me harder than everyone else. Like, what do you mean? He has a contract with them right now. Dude, does do words not have meaning anymore? Like black ball has a very specific meaning, and because I was coming from the position looking back on it, you are just upset that he doesn't like you and doesn't want to invite you to parties with him. You're upset about that. And you then tried to add in this idea, like, because then he came back again and said, Sorry after Aussies document, Brax, the phone came back again and said there was, like, one of his first sentences was, I'm not going to pretend everything I said in my first document was true with no clarification.

    KC Davis 31:38

    He just dropped that line. And was like, listen, he just

    Caroline 31:40

    dropped it and kept it pushing. And I was like, hello. And then also he says, you know, talking to atzu, you know that I had an NDA, and that part of the NBA was that I wasn't allowed to talk about the fact that I had a contract or an NDA, which my husband and I get into fights about this all the time, about the legality of whether that would hold up in court, because there are situations where you have to be able to acknowledge, wait,

    KC Davis 32:04

    it's hilarious that he that, like, it has accidentally gone full circle to, like, proving the original people's point that, like, yes, people aren't disclosing that they have these contracts when they're giving these reviews and pretending to be, like, neutral about it. Oh my god. And you know what? It really does make so much sense, because everyone loves like, that story of like, I'm the underdog, the up and comer and like this person who's already made it that has all these privileges, you know, is like, secretly a really shitty person like that. I feel like that narrative, we eat it up like we love to hear some celebrity is secretly, like, shitty and like, now we really like this underdog, and for some reason, I find it such a delicious twist to find out, like the underdog sucks,

    Caroline 32:47

    right? And that's the thing. Like, this was an easy one to do, too, because again, atsu had always been fairly polarizing and had been seen to be fairly Clicky. The way he describes it in his follow up that happened later is the second one that I'm talking about in this same document. He's like, Look, I've had people who have clung on to me because they knew that my friends, like I have connections there that I had before I got into this content space. Like, I didn't make these like friends, at least not all of them, like a lot of them, are just people I was already friends with, and this is just how things played out. And I've had people use me for this and cling to me for that, and I really have a distaste for it. So when I see people listen,

    KC Davis 33:26

    no new friends. You know what I mean? I know a lot of YouTubers, or

    Caroline 33:29

    I hear a lot of YouTubers saying, No, I don't have a discord. No. And personally, oh my God, never I think that's the worst decision, complete tangent. But don't make a discord. It's going to be, there will be minors in it, terrible things will happen in it. It will be your fault, and I need you don't make a discord. But

    KC Davis 33:46

    that's such a weird choice to me. Like, the only time I've ever participated in a discord was like, when, so when my book launched, I did like a book club, like my publisher set up a little book club, and we, like, had people sign up, and so we did it through like discord, because that was just the easy was just the easiest way to do it. But I mean, it lasted like, six weeks where we would, like, read the book and come together and, like, talk about the chapter whatever, like, whatever. But outside of that, like, I know of content creators that have discords with their fans, and it's such weirdo behavior to me. I

    Caroline 34:19

    agree, like I've never had I think about all these, you know, because a lot of the stuff I consume is heavier stuff that I don't, you know, utilize for niche key, because it's not tea. And so every time you hear about another YouTuber has been exposed for XYZ, inappropriate slash, criminally implicating behavior. I always think, like, how do you fall into these traps? Like, I get DM requests. I get all this stuff you can easily, like, I just don't hold back and forth conversations with people who I am not able to physically like, look at you and verify. Like, I know that you are not a child. I know you. Know what I mean? Like, I don't know, yeah. So I that whole thing. That's a pretty good twist, pretty weird, yeah. So that twist threw me off a lot because, oh, so he's literally correct, because you went out of your way to use the word black ball. You went out of your way that words have meaning. Can we not do this? Because now I feel manipulated. Is what I said. Like, do I believe that atsu is like, based on this whole thing and the way he talked to people? Because then, of course, when his document came out, some of his friends were coming out and sharing screenshots from discord about him, saying, like, he doesn't like Brax a phone, but literally, even in that same thing, he's like, I'm not a big fan of the guy, but please don't not hang out with him because of me. Like, I'm not telling anyone else to not hang out with him. I'm just not interested. He's, you know, whatever, he doesn't owe you like friendships, simply because he doesn't have to like you. He doesn't have to give you extra opportunities, just because he has the ability to do so like but I do believe that all of these people are very like emotionally immature, and I hope that I know Otzi said he's stepping away, but I'm more on his side. I hope he just goes to therapy and, you know, is able to kind of maybe find something else that's less intense to get into. But yeah, I was just, I was so mad, like, What do you mean? What do you mean? Because I don't care if he didn't invite you to parties, I What, what do you mean?

    KC Davis 36:20

    Yeah, okay, that's a good one. Let me ask you this, what tell us about, like, the funniest tea that you've ever had.

    Caroline 36:27

    I had to think about this a bit, and it's not so much any it's a class, a class of tea That's the funniest. And the class is academic. Academic is so funny because usually you're talking about PhD level, just nerd people and, like, you know, as a math person, these are my people. I understand. I'm fully in support, but they are just the way they engage in drama with each other, especially because a lot of times we're talking about, like, if it's big enough that it makes it into niche tea, it always ends up being like you're talking about, like front of their field, PhD, publishing, research level stuff. Two stories come to mind. One I had mentioned to you previously, that was the one about the a guy made an entire he was a geologist, and it was in Indonesia, and he found there was a basically, he was claiming that this structure on a mountain was a pyramid. And then he was, he wrote up, he did a whole series of, you know, over almost a year, you know, worth of research, where he went on site and with teams and did digging and did all the stuff and wrote up a whole thing. And his conclusions, though, were that this was definitely a pyramid, and that based on the dating he did of the stuff around it, like the soil, the raw you know, all the context is what they call it. It was like 20, 30,000 years old. That is insane. Before that, we would have thought the oldest pyramid was that we've confirmed the man made pyramid is like five to 10,000 years old. So, like, that's a significant difference. And also in Indonesia, like, that's a totally different place, yeah,

    KC Davis 38:04

    that's like a rewriting history, kind of like, Babe thing. It was

    Caroline 38:07

    huge. It was huge, huge, huge. And about a year after that paper, when that paper got released, eventually, a bunch of people and it was peer reviewed, is the thing. It was published through Wiley. This is not one of those quick turn places. Like, there's another place called archive, where you can kind of just put up whatever you want. And it turns out that, you know, a lot of people were really challenging it, to the point where Wiley got involved, and, like, a year later, came back to them and said, Hey guys, a lot of questions. How do you respond to these things? And then this email back and forth is one of the funniest things I've seen like this, watching this descend, because they end up retracting the paper. And so this guy, it starts this email chain that starts in like, November of like, 2023, and like, goes into January, just back and forth between the main representative at the publishing company, Wiley, and the main researcher on this thing. And by the end, it's basically like, Hello, I hope you're having a great day. Go fuck yourself. Like they are so mad, like they're just, they're like, I really don't understand. And I would love to, you know, like in the mass per our last email, you piece of shit, yeah, yeah. Like, and it's just watching the anger, like, but they have to stay professional, because this is what we're doing, you know, go back and forth. So, like, similarly, we had one. It's like the

    KC Davis 39:21

    definition of white on white crime Exactly. Although neither of these people are white, I think, like, because this guy, but just like the clinging to, like, politeness, yes, as they descend into just like, full on loathing of each other. And

    Caroline 39:35

    because the guy who's in charge of this too, the researcher, he, his name is Dr nataway dia and he then also started posting these massive rant on like Facebook. He eventually, once it got retracted, he started claiming that he was being suppressed, and basically that there was, like a archeology mafia that is like, not allowing him to bring

    KC Davis 39:55

    out the truth. Oh, like the archeology Illuminati, sure, sure, sure, exactly would.

    Caroline 39:59

    Is some serious coke that was really, really funny to watch. And meanwhile, the rest of the academic community is like, hey, so I we're more worried about the fact that when this paper came out, this was a really big deal, because obviously, it literally changes so much about human history and this retraction. Can we be that loud? Can we be that loud on the retraction? Because, like, not people aren't really understanding this, because we

    KC Davis 40:20

    need to change it back now. Yeah, we need people to stop quoting. We need to change history back now.

    Caroline 40:24

    And you can't just quietly retract the thing. You've gotta, we've gotta, like, get this circulating too, you know, but the way that they descend, like they're, I think, to your point, like the facade of kindness, while you're just like, I hate you so much. And there was another one that was for physics, and it was basically these two groups of people who theoretical physics. We're talking like, literally, conceptual level stuff, nowhere near the point of even being taught, like in any kind of school. It's just PhD level people writing papers at each other. And these papers are different. They're not peer reviewed, so they can just kind of upload it and go back and forth if they need to. And that ended up happening in this case, since guy came forward and was like, I have this new idea for how gravity might work. I won't it doesn't matter, and doesn't

    KC Davis 41:10

    matter, I wouldn't understand it, even if you explained it

    Caroline 41:13

    doesn't matter and not proven very theoretical, still, still. And he put out a couple different papers, and he where he was exploring different aspects of what might support this idea that he has around gravity. And then these other guys came forward and started writing, like counter papers to his paper and basically saying, like, this doesn't make any sense. This doesn't explain the things you say. It does like, kind of just coming out and saying that. And the thing that I this is when I first realized, like, oh, where normally most people will go to Twitter and start, like, going back and forth on Twitter. These guys don't do that. They literally just keep publishing at each they're publishing at each other, but it's a paper. So then the first guy comes back is like, actually, like, and there's so much passive, aggressive sassiness that sounds like a teenager, like a 14 year old girl writing a note to her friend that she knows another friend is gonna read, you know, like, that kind of thing. Like it

    KC Davis 42:07

    starts. It's like, despite the erroneous conclusions by Alfred at all, no,

    Caroline 42:13

    literally. It's like, we can see here why this might have been this is the reason we think this was incorrectly assumed and then utilized incorrectly. It's like you would under the phrasing that was in there, like you would notice this if you worked with these on any regularity, like, if you understood that, like this, we understand how these mistakes can be made, like that type of stuff. Like here, why don't we break this down? Like there was one part where it's like, we understand how you got to this point, and they're both doing it back and forth. I don't remember who said this to who, but it was like, to who, but it was like, you know, we understand. You know how? You know, this was confusing, so we're gonna go into it in in more depth, which is like, why don't I say it again for you, but slower? Would that help? It

    KC Davis 42:53

    reminds me of like posh Lords fighting by like slapping each other with their gloves,

    Caroline 42:58

    like getting not even just that. It's the it's the posturing, it's the stand up in a huff. You walk over, you raise your hand, you finger by finger, take off your glove, slap across the face like, you know, it's a 20 minute lead up type of thing, like the pomp and circumstance of it. And I remember I got one of my favorite comments ever in that video, because so the guy who came up with the new thing. It was this idea he's calling cotton gravity, again, doesn't matter. And then one of the responses from the other guys, the title of the paper was farewell to cotton gravity. And someone who icons is like, farewell to cotton gravity is fighting words. Actually, people get so they have no idea. These are people. This is like, that's a 14 year old girl who knows, you know what I mean. Like, that perfectly encapsulated. Like, oh, excuse me, do we need to have a talk? Like, I didn't know anything about this before today, but now I'm invested. Like, it's because it's a sort of thing where I describe it as, like, if these guys, like, yeah, they're not on social media for the most part, and when they are, you can see that they're just as insane. Like, same thing with the geologist who was climbing the pyramid. Like, when he's on given a platform on Facebook or any other anywhere else, he just rambles. And you were like, Oh, this guy might be crazy, you know, but for the most part, we don't see that. And so to see it in these really, like, academic places and have it highlighted, and to know that, like, if these guys met in a bar, they made spike. Like, that's so funny. You picture these old men who just, like, teach in a paper, and then they see a guy and then,

    KC Davis 44:26

    like, it's on site, academic conference. I

    Caroline 44:29

    love that. I love that stuff that makes me laugh so much. Okay, so

    KC Davis 44:33

    I want to end by having you tell us, like, what the most viral niche tea has been.

    Caroline 44:39

    That definitely was bird watching one. It was definitely that I went, I went back and triple checked, and that one, it's got like, three some million views. Any honorable mentions? Oh, honorable mention would be Flow Hive, another one that I put the bird watching one, and the Flow Hive in kind of the same, in the same genre, in. The sense that it's a niche that people have a lot of interest in, but there's also a lot of neat information. So it's like a fairly people really, like, find it to be interesting in a way that I wasn't prepared for. Like, people love beekeeping. Nobody's a beekeeper, but people love beekeeping. You know what I mean? Like, like, nobody. Like, think of the woman who saves another day, saving the bees. Like, I don't know there's something about bee content. Or

    KC Davis 45:26

    the woman that, like, scoops the bees with her bare hands. Yeah,

    Caroline 45:29

    that's the same woman I was, Oh yeah, yeah, getting the bees her. I do think there's

    KC Davis 45:34

    something sort of like, as someone who reads a lot of fantasy books, there is something like primal about watching someone interact with bees, where you're like, This is magic. There's no other explanation. The

    Caroline 45:44

    same thing with the bird watching, where it's like, I feel like the sea glass video I did was similar where it's like, just about people who collect sea glass from beaches. That's it. You know, it's because it's such innocuous outdoor It sounds very peaceful type of stuff. And because, I think again, same thing with the bird watching. You picture like, this man that's like, in his 60s or 70s, right? And you just, you're like, Oh, I bet he wanted to fight that guy. That's

    KC Davis 46:12

    how I feel when there's, like, tea about, like, knitting patterns. There's

    Caroline 46:15

    another one. I is always good knitting drama. I just never, I haven't found one that's like, really, really juicy. But knitting is one of those ones that I never people constantly say they're like, the knitting community goes wild. The stuff that people get upset about in the knitting community, the drama there goes insane, like with patterns, and certainly, AI has created, I'm waiting for a really good knitting story. It's I like to check off niches. And if it's a new a net new one, I'm way more interested, you know, and knitting is one of those ones I really meant to but yeah, I'd say the beekeeping one, that one had to do with a beekeeper on tick tock, who was he was testing a new hive from a company called flow, and basically explaining his concerns with some of the back and forths he had with them and their customer service because of some recommendations they made to him, that he's like, Hey, if I did this, my bees would die, and that's not good. And he was theorizing that the reason for that would be because flow is based in Australia, and he is in the Midwest of the US. And so, you know, winter is a real thing. It's the Midwest, in a really serious way, that it's not the same in Australia. And he's like, here's the thing. I know enough to know that that recommendation, those recommendations they made, wouldn't make sense, and all he was doing was a product review. He wasn't coming out to, you know, come after them, or anything like he said, from beginning, I'm gonna try this hive, because I keep hearing about it, and I'm gonna take you guys on this journey with me. He has a whole series that he goes through. I think part of the reason people like those, beyond just the topic, is that people are really interested in learning about that. Because part of what I try and do is lay a groundwork so that as you come away from it, you have an understanding of, like, what is this thing? What's the basic history behind it? How do things work? So, like, I was explaining the difference between traditional beehives and the Flow Hive and how it works, and like, what it and people love, love that, like the kind of the history of and again, with bird watching, like, What do you mean, where? Where do people love birds? Is there a committee? Is there oversight? Is there? Are there? They're famous birders. Like, I mean, I

    KC Davis 48:18

    truly feel like you do, like a humanitarian service, because, especially right now, everything post election is so stressful and like, things really matter that, like, there's kind of and like, Yes, I do want spaces where, you know, it's like, oh, it's, you know, you don't have to think about anything, but like, there's some kind of, like, weird need that niche T fills, where it's like, I want to feel something about something that doesn't matter.

    Caroline 48:42

    Yeah, it's fun because it's just, it's like, an indulgence. It's like, it's the same reason I love reality TV. Well, yes, like, there's

    KC Davis 48:50

    things that matter that you feel about, and then there's things that don't matter that you don't feel anything about. And it's like, sometimes you need that, like things I can feel about that don't matter. Probably why I like books exactly

    Caroline 48:59

    like, yeah, you want to hear about how the, you know, princesses are, the princess community is beefing over the way they wear dresses, you know, whatever.

    KC Davis 49:08

    Oh, that happens. There's some real tea in the like Disney community about the changes they made to the Disney princesses. Exactly. Well, Caroline tell us where we can look you up, where people can follow niche tea. I

    Caroline 49:19

    am predominantly on Tiktok, but I'm also I try to have a presence pretty much everywhere. I'm on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, I repost to Instagram and YouTube. You can find me any of those places, just trying to make it easy for people to follow me. I'm Arith girl, A, E, R, i, t, h, g, I R, L, everywhere. So I should be easy enough to find. And I use the same profile

    KC Davis 49:41

    photo, so I'm making it as easy as I can. Awesome. Well, Caroline, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It was great talking to you. You.

Christy Haussler
123: Are You an Introvert or is it Social Anxiety? with Natasha Daniels

Social anxiety is an interesting topic. Natasha Daniels is a social anxiety therapist and mom who joined us recently to discuss OCD and kids; today, we are exploring another form of anxiety as Natasha helps us understand social anxiety. She wrote a memoir, Out of My Shell, detailing her personal experience. 

Show Highlights:

  • Natasha’s background, personal experience, and book about social anxiety

  • The neuro-divergent affirming movement

  • The difference between social anxiety and introversion

  • Do we ALL have some degree of social anxiety?

  • Thoughts on “bed rot,” social anxiety, and what’s “normal”

  • Social anxiety as a defense mechanism

  • The isolation that comes with social anxiety

  • OCD, social anxiety, and autism—a common connection?

  • “A paralyzing fear of others’ perceptions and a preoccupation with managing those perceptions”

  • The difference between a defense mechanism and a personality trait

  • An overview of Natasha’s experience with social anxiety and why she wrote her book

  • Social anxiety is NOT a self-esteem issue.

  • Outsmarting the negative critic in your head

  • Dr. Kristin Neff’s concept of “fierce self-compassion,” which is “a feistiness of advocacy”

Resources and Links:

Future Fans:Helping little kids become BIG fans

Connect with Natasha Daniels: Website (and book) and Instagram

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:00

    Music. Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and today we're going to talk about social anxiety. I actually have Natasha Daniels back in the studio with us. Last time Natasha was here, we were talking about OCD in kids. And now we're going to talk about a different kind of anxiety, which is social anxiety. Natasha, thank you for coming back. Oh,

    Natasha Daniels 0:23

    thanks for having me again. I appreciate it.

    KC Davis 0:25

    So Okay, the last episode about OCD, you kind of talked to us about what you know about OCD, but talk to us a little bit about kind of who you are and how that relates to social anxiety. And I understand you actually wrote a book as well on this topic.

    Natasha Daniels 0:39

    I did. I wrote a memoir. So I am an anxiety and OCD child therapist, and I'm also the mom to three kids with anxiety and OCD, and all three have social anxiety, and I also have struggled with just generalized anxiety disorder and predominantly social anxiety. And so yeah, I get social anxiety on a very deep, personal and clinical level.

    KC Davis 0:59

    So what is the name of your book?

    Natasha Daniels 1:01

    It's out of my shell, overcoming social anxiety from childhood to adulthood. I gotta think about that for a second.

    KC Davis 1:07

    So here's one of the things that I'm really excited to listen to this because I am firmly situated in sort of like the neuro divergent affirming movement, where we are trying to just like, normalize that people have different neurotypes, they have different personalities, they have different ways of socially interacting, and also trying to kind of normalize like that a good portion that is going to be disabling for the rest of our lives, you know, and that there might be accommodations we need for the rest of our lives. And there's kind of this long history, especially when it comes to autism, and somewhat with ADHD, where all the therapies around autism and ADHD were really focused on just making those kids act more, quote, unquote, normal, right? So making autistic kids make eye contact, making ADHD kids, you know, stop interrupting because and so a lot of us carry a lot of this shame from childhood, and are now really being empowered with this idea of like, Oh, I'm not wrong. I'm not bad. This is just the way that my brain works. And I think that there that that movement is really important and really good. And one of the things that I like as a therapist, and just my personal and professional experience, like, have begun to think about is kind of this, I wouldn't say, like guardrail, but it's kind of like this parallel truth that I think is really important to have in this movement, where there are things about our brains and our bodies working differently, that there's nothing wrong with them, and maybe They don't need to be fixed. And I think sometimes we need to remember that there are also disorders that are inherently debilitating, and are things that can and we should be seeking to overcome, that we can live differently that they aren't or don't have to be a part of our core personality or identity or experience, and that's why I really find your experience with social anxiety really captivating and important. Because, you know, and I want to kind of start here with like, the difference between introversion and social anxiety, because there's nothing wrong with being an introvert. There's nothing there to fix. But I'm wondering how many people maybe actually have social anxiety that just think they're an introvert and they're maybe missing an opportunity to grow in a direction that would make their life more fulfilling, happier, more meaningful?

    Natasha Daniels 3:38

    Yeah, and I love that question, because I really feel like that has been a big part of my journey, which has been, how do I love and accept the introvert part of me and get the social anxiety much, much smaller and how they are separated? Because I think that one is to accept who you are, and that was part of my journey, because I think social anxiety is really good at getting you to give yourself a narrative that's not true, you know, to make you feel like it's not a disorder. It's just that people don't like you, or that you repel people, or that you're just an introvert. And really social anxiety is the fear of rejection criticism, the feeling that you are going to embarrass yourself or be found out, or that you're not enough. I mean, I think that's the core fear under social anxiety for most people, is I'm not enough in some category, and I get my value by you validating me. And so there's this panic, if I'm not validated externally in some way, then I'm not good enough. And that's different than being an introvert. I mean, you can be an extrovert and have social anxiety. I've got one of those at my house, and she, I mean, she wore a banana suit to a Hawaiian dance. I was like, I think you got the wrong she's like, No, I want to be different, like she was, I'm sure she was the only banana dancing in the Hawaiian dance party. But it's not about being an introvert extrovert. I mean, a lot of people with social anxiety are introverted. Sometimes. Maybe not organically. Maybe it happens that way. And some people are shy, but some people aren't shy, and some people have social skills and some people don't. It's not a lack of social skills, per se, it's just that fear of judgment and criticism that dominates it, and it's, it is debilitating, and it, it does squash your ability to live a full life. And it, it can be worked on.

    KC Davis 5:20

    So, you know, when you talk about the root of it, I mean, I remember feeling that as a teenager, like really needing people's validation, really being afraid of rejection. And I think that's a normal sort of developmental space. But at the same time, I wouldn't describe, like, my behaviors or fears around that as social anxiety, because, like, although I was afraid of being judged, I don't know if I just like, I felt like I knew how not to be, if that makes sense or like, I never, I didn't have like. I was always out. I always wanted to be with people. I always, I guess in my head, it was like, I'm good at getting people's validation. So yes, I'm still afraid of not having it, but I don't have any anxiety about my ability to gain it. You know what? I mean, it's almost like kind of tending towards narcissism, almost,

    Natasha Daniels 6:07

    yeah, and I think it is developmentally appropriate, especially middle school and high school, you know, your tween and your teen years, to feel like you're living in a fish bowl and to feel, you know, that real. I mean, it's developmentally appropriate, like, I want my peers to love and support me. I want to people have people like me. And I think it's also a human condition. I think with social anxiety is the acuity, it's the level of debilitation that goes with it. And most people's social anxiety don't have that tenacity to say, I'm good at it. I think it's the opposite. It's like, I'm bad at it, and I should avoid it.

    KC Davis 6:40

    So is that really, I mean, you said in the podcast about OCD that avoidance is the fuel of anxiety. Is that the difference between like, maybe what makes because you could have a lot of people that have that fear of rejection or that needing of validity, and you know, some people that might express, as, you know, I'm, you know, almost narcissistic. Some people, it might just be I'm really clingy, or I'm really needy, or I'm kind of a pick me, or I'm real insecure, or I'm real manipulative to people, because I really need everyone to like me. Is what distinguishes the social anxiety, the avoidance aspect of it, that that fear kind of causes an avoidance.

    Natasha Daniels 7:17

    I think that's one component for sure. I mean, I think avoidance fuels all anxiety disorders, and so do I avoid my, you know, avoid putting myself in situations that are going to be uncomfortable? Do I avoid talking to people, you know? So, yes, avoidance is a component of it. I think there's other elements too. There's checking in a non OCD way, like, am I blushing, or am I sweating, or am I is my voice shaking, or, you know, Do I look okay? Or whatever your theme is, it does show up differently for each person. We all tend to hyper focus on specific things, and that's different for each person. But then also it's the ruminating. And so let's just, you know, analyze that conversation for the next 24 hours, and what I should have said, or what I could have said, or so there's a lot of ruminating that also happens, and then a lot of times, a lot of anxiety attacks. You know, you're in a situation that you couldn't avoid or that you had tried to do, and then it's that's not going well, because your inner critic is telling you, oh my gosh, this is really sucking right now, and then full blown panic. And so having those anxiety attacks is also sometimes a hallmark of it.

    KC Davis 8:21

    Yeah, and I wonder, you know, I think one of the things, there's a few disorders that are some like this in that one of the things that I think makes social anxiety a little bit difficult to I talk about in the abstract, like, it's probably not hard as a clinician to identify when you see it, but it's hard to talk about in the abstract because, like, to a certain degree, all of these behaviors are just like typical behaviors. And we all have had a conversation where we're kicking ourselves going, Oh, I must have looked so stupid. I can't stop thinking about it. You know, we all have situations where, you know, maybe you're sweating and you're thinking, oh, gosh, I got probably an armpit water left. And so, you know, it is part of this, the frequency of those things. Because, I mean, I have interactions where I can't stop thinking about for days because it was, you know, I did or said something stupid. But I also think that, like in those situations, I have, in fact, done or said something stupid, you know what I mean, as opposed to, maybe there's not anything identifiably wrong at that moment, but then later, you know, you start second guessing, and you start, like, that kind of thing.

    Natasha Daniels 9:25

    Yeah, I think that's why a lot of people's social anxiety aren't diagnosed. Don't even recognize they have it, because it is, like this severity of it. It's the volume of it that creates the disorder. And I know even when I was talking to, like my brother about it, you know, and I was writing my memoir, he's and I was like, explaining stuff, and he's like, Well, don't we all have that? And actually, my uncle too, he was like, don't we all feel that way? And I felt really discounted. It's like, read my book, but when they did, it's interesting, because that was both of their reactions. And then when they read my book, they were like, Oh my gosh, I did. Realize you were suffering like that internally. And I have a friend who's really outgoing, and she's like, I didn't realize people think this way or struggle this way. And so I think it's in the detail of what's going on in our head and the severity of what we avoid, or how much we like ruminate and think about it, that becomes the disorder.

    KC Davis 10:17

    Yeah. And I think you know, as much as we even say, like, some of these are normal fears and feelings and things to do. You know, in adolescents, they're still even there. Like, you know, when you have a kid that is crying every morning before school because they're afraid that they, you know, won't be liked, or they like even then, like, you can see the outliers where it's like, okay, yes, a degree of that is normal. But here we have a kid that is, like, damn near not functioning. And it's not just the I'm afraid to get on stage for this presentation, or what if I don't have friends, though, the first couple of weeks, whatever, it's kind of like things beyond that at a different frequency and intensity and even like a benignness, even the benign ones are really heightened.

    Natasha Daniels 11:02

    Yeah, exactly. I mean, even when I think about my kids or my own childhood, it's like throwing up before going to school every day, like that was the norm. Or, you know, for my daughter, having to take, you know, medication to calm her before she goes to a birthday party, because otherwise she feels like she's gonna throw up or pass out, or my son even, like, we went to a pumpkin patch thing the other day, and he is in online school, and I was like, Oh, he needs to get out. And he has social anxiety, so that's definitely not helpful. And just the panic, and him just standing in the line, you know, I'm trying to dance a little bit, and he's like, stop it. Just stop it, you know? And I'm like, we're in the dark. No one can see me, and everyone's dancing like, why is this a problem? But that level of feeling like you're in the spotlight, and that level of panic is definitely more extreme than your your average kid. You

    KC Davis 11:54

    know, one of the things that I think is kind of funny that happens on social medias is there's kind of this, like normalizing, like, they call it like bed rotting. We feel like this. My favorite place is my bed. I just want to be in bed with my treats and a good show and binge watch TV. And the thing is, is like, I agree, like, I love a good bed rot day. Like, I've always been a person that, like, that's my day. That's my idea of like, a day off and but then, like, as a therapist, my mind always goes to, like, those bumper rails of like, we've got to have some bumper rails on this conversation, on this trend, on, on a kind of trending towards, like, normalizing, not always having to be out and doing things. Because I do think that it would be easy for someone with social anxiety to go, yeah. See, it's normal to always want to be in, to never want to be out, to not like anyone, to, you know, not and, and there is some pushback that I'm seeing, you know, in at least in the spaces that I exist, where people are like, hey, like, it's not normal to hate everyone, right? It's, it's not normal. Like, it's okay to be like, I'm not a people person, and then like, but like, that's different than like, I, you know, vehemently dislike participating in communal spaces because I don't like other people. You know what I mean, like, and I'm just curious, like, if you have any thoughts about that, about like, things that you know, maybe even that you personally kind of justified as well. This is just normal, or this is my personality, or it's okay, and that you later realized, like, Oh no, that was me being in distress. Yeah,

    Natasha Daniels 13:25

    it is really it feels better to just be like, I just don't like people. Or people suck. And, yeah, some of them really do. But I think there's a defense mechanism that happens with social anxiety that I definitely was part of in my teens. I was just like, Oh, I'm going to be anti establishment. I'm going to like, you know, I'm going to go goth, I'm going to go Nine Inch Nails. And there was like, liberation in that, because I was like, Okay, now I can, like, not like people, and be very overt about it, and I don't want to fit in. I don't want to be with you. And I really feel like, not only was that a phase, that was a defense mechanism, although, you know, I still like the music. And then as I got older, again, still not recognizing that I had social anxiety, I would always make excuses like, oh, well, I'm new here, you know, or this is a new thing, or maybe next time, I'll make friends. And then it was just like, I don't fit in with these people, like they're too wealthy, or they're too this, or they're too that. And I would always find a reason why I was excluded. And then I just doubled down, really, in my 30s and 40s, I was like, I just don't get along with people and so, and that's okay, I'm just gonna stay here and just be best friends with my husband. And that was unproductive, because that wasn't really the whole story. I mean, I was avoiding because I didn't know how to make connections, and I was afraid of rejection, and I felt like the minute I left my house, I was there's a spotlight on me, and so avoidance was just an easier way. I

    KC Davis 14:43

    remember when I was in rehab, they had me do this, like one exercise about, I can't remember what it was about, but it was during, like a family processing therapy session. And I read this thing where I talked about how every time I move. I don't see my body moving from my point of view, from like first person that, like, I see everything I do in third person. So I'm thinking, How did my body look as it moved in that way? And how did that sound as somebody heard it, and that even when I was alone, it was like being in The Truman Show, like, in my head, it was just kind of like, always a performance, and it was specifically related to, it wasn't related to like, I don't know how to act, or like, I don't get social cues. It was specifically related to the judgment of the people around me and making sure that I was liked, that I looked cool, or that I looked okay, or that I looked and that like that was like this preoccupation that, like, I couldn't do anything, everything I did and said I observed in third person. And that was kind of like my primary preoccupation was, how is this going to be taken? How is this going to be observed? How is this going to pass? Even if I was in public and no one was looking at me, it still mattered to me. And I remember thinking, like, Man, this is a really, like, broken part of me. This is like, a really disordered, maybe part of my addiction, part of me being, like, very different. And my sister, who's 12 years older than me, so she was, like, in her late 20s at the time, was like, Well, I remember feeling that when I was a teenager. And I remember that at the time, feeling a little confused, because I was like, Wait, am I not that unique? But then also being like, oh, that's kind of relieving, because she, like, didn't have addiction problems, but she was like, I mean, I remember feeling that as a teenager, and ever since then, that has really been kind of this really important memory, because it seems like at least from my understanding of, like, social anxiety from that aspect of it. It's like, and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong. It's kind of like a normal phase, but you don't ever grow out of it. Like, if you kind of get, like, stuck in that, I can only ever think in public, in this, like, 3d Truman Show, what am I looking whatever. And then that's causing this, like, almost like, it's debilitating to think that way, and so I can't really, I don't know what you think about that, but I just, I'm trying to thread that needle, even for myself, between, like, it would be normal to experience some of this stuff at like, certain phases of life or certain heightened experiences, but that, like, I did, kind of just pass through that, like, I don't, I don't. Now, in my, you know, 30s, experience the world that way, yeah,

    Natasha Daniels 17:27

    well, and I think, like, okay, during your tween and teen years, if we had, like, a radio dial, you know, it's at like a nine, you know, normally for, like, developmentally appropriate, you know, phase of life, and when you have social anxiety, it's at like a 20. And then as you get older, you know everyone else's dial goes down to maybe, like a five, and yours is still at a 20. And so because the level of intensity that I felt starting in eighth grade was still so above and beyond. I mean throwing up every day before going to school, and then not your typical just like, I feel like I'm on stage when I go into the cafeteria. You know, it was like It dominated. And then I started having anxiety attacks in eighth grade, because we had this one teacher who was lazy and would just make everybody read again. Nobody likes reading. It can be embarrassing to read in public, but for me, like I would get stuck on it. I would think about that one hour, and I would worry about it, and then I would have an anxiety attack reading. I would run out of breath, and I would start to panic that I was going to pass out, and then for the rest of the day and the night, I would like lament on, I have to go back. And, you know, everyone saw me. Everyone thinks I'm an idiot. Everyone heard me mispronounce a word, and so I think it's like that volume button is at a really dysfunctional level.

    KC Davis 18:45

    It also seems like when your description of it, what strikes me about that is you just seem very alone. And I think my experience of those kind of developmentally appropriate experiences of like self you know, what is like self consciousness? I didn't experience those as feeling alone, like they were still very much in the context of connections that I was feeling with other people, if that makes sense, like there wasn't like a love, there wasn't an anxiety or a worry or avoid there was definitely, like, maybe a preoccupation, or a little bit of like, I really care, or I'm a little afraid of this, but I think when I hear your experience, it makes me feel very much sad about how alone and kind of almost like disconnected from the reality of kind of what was going on around you. Yeah,

    Natasha Daniels 19:32

    and I think that is an earmark for social anxiety. Is this isolation and feeling like you are alone? And I think that's also why people don't recognize they have it is they think I'm the only one that has these thoughts. I'm the only one that worries about these things. I always felt like I was on the outside looking in in any area of my life, even in my family, I thought, you know, they don't like me that much. You know, they don't call me enough as an adult, my work environment once I became a mom. Oh my gosh, that just like, like, social anxiety to the power of two, because now my kids are embarrassing me, or people are judging me about my parenting. On top of that, I don't fit into my community. I don't fit into my work, and so it's and for some people, it's just one area. It might just be their work. They feel like, you know, they're not good enough, and they're worried they're gonna blush and they're worried they're gonna shake. And for me, it's ironically, the other way around. I feel pretty confident in work. If I'm wearing a professional hat, I can have a conversation all day, but throw me in a party where it's unscripted and, like, I have to actually, like, find out who I'm gonna talk to. I rather die. Like, that's a tent for me. And so it's different for each person with social anxiety. One

    KC Davis 20:35

    of the things that is standing out to me, you know, in contrast to the conversation we had about OCD is that, like, I could for sure see someone who is OCD and has social anxiety as getting diagnosed autistic, because they'd go, oh, you know you worry in social situations. You're uncomfortable in social situations. You know you miss social cues. But again, that's your like self report about thinking that you're missing social cues, or you don't get what's going on you always feel on the outside, and then you have these obsessions and compulsions that maybe get seem like restrictive and repetitive behavior. And I can also see the opposite, right? Like, maybe someone who is autistic just kind of going to a therapist that isn't familiar with autism and being like, Oh man, this looks like OCD and social anxiety, and it is making me think about because I have so many autistic people in my life like I think sometimes we hear a lot from people in the autism community that experience, that feeling, way they talk about they call it social deficits, which I'm not a huge fan of, the deficit language, but that's what it's referred to. A lot of times I'll hear people express that experience as this sort of like, I'm always worried that I'm not doing something right socially. I'm always overly concerned that, you know, I don't know when it's the right time to leave. And I'm always worried that, you know, what, if people don't like me here and I can't pick up on it. But I think sometimes, you know, there are just as many autistic people who experience their social symptoms as like, the opposite, if that makes sense, where it's like, I don't worry. I don't think about it. I don't, you know, there's this, for lack of a better term, kind of like, an obliviousness of like, this isn't something I worry about at all, and that's part of the symptomology. And I guess I'm just wondering, like, you know, it seems like it would be difficult as a parent to figure out what's going on, or even as a person, but it also strikes me like, how many autistic adults also have social anxiety, but because they are autistic, or because they have an autism diagnosis, maybe are thinking like, well, this is just a part of my autism. There's nothing that can be done about it. And are, like, really trying to, like, drum up some self acceptance for this part of them that maybe isn't so central to their identity as they have previously thought, like, maybe this is social anxiety, not saying you're not autistic, but maybe part of this is social anxiety that actually can be, you know, drastically minimized, and increase your experience of life like so I'm just curious your thoughts on that. Yeah,

    Natasha Daniels 23:13

    you know, I think sometimes there is an overlap. I think when you take social anxiety without the autistic element, a lot of times, what drives it is that you are too aware of people's cues. And so like, I can tell that someone's uncomfortable, like, a mile away, I could be in a room and I could be like, Why is that guy in the corner? Like, looking uncomfortable, and now I'm uncomfortable for him. Like, I can read subtle cues to the point where it's a deficit, because I can tell when someone's not interested in what I'm saying, and I think I'm accurate a lot of the time, because I'm so clued in, I'm like, hyper fixating on their eye contact. Where are they moving their eyes? How are they participating in this conversation? And so it adds to the narrative I'm picking up on things that I think the average person doesn't pick up on and so they can live in Oblivion, which I wish I could when you're dealing with an autistic person. They may or may not, they may struggle reading social cues or truly having like the reciprocity of the back and forthness. And so the skills might make them struggle. And then, though the social anxiety can add to it, like I need their approval, that that narrative underneath of I need them to like me. I'm not good enough if they don't accept me, that part can be worked on, where I can stumble on my words, or I can not fit in, and I can do these things anyway and be okay with them not liking me, and that there's room for growth in that area, no matter what,

    KC Davis 24:45

    yeah, it seems like I mean, or I can. Maybe this is a question like, is the core of social anxiety, kind of like a paralyzing fear of others perception, and that causes. Like a preoccupation with needing to manage that, which, in turn, often results in just an avoidance of social situations when at all possible.

    Natasha Daniels 25:10

    Yeah, I think it's a really good way to summarize it. Yeah, exactly. Okay, cool.

    KC Davis 25:16

    That's a helpful way to think of it, because I think that helps me distinguish, like, okay, although I relate to some things that I've heard people talk about in social anxiety, I don't relate to this core sort of like thing happening, if that makes sense, yeah, and I like what you said about basically, like, the difference between a defense mechanism and a personality trait, right? Like, we can be introverted, or we can prefer to have a quiet time by ourselves, and then that's different than social anxiety, which kind of is like a defense mechanism. So what are some of the things in your experience? And if I remember correctly, the book is like a memoir of your sort of like coming through social anxiety. So what were some of the key points for you, or maybe some of the key interventions that actually helped you? And I'm curious, like, What have you discovered about your personality that you didn't know before, because it was kind of being covered up by the social anxiety? Yeah,

    Natasha Daniels 26:14

    you know, I the book goes back and forth to, like, my childhood and then my present, and then in between, I'm doing actually therapy sessions with my younger self, and trying to get my younger selves to realize that it's social anxiety and not kind of the stories that I was telling myself. But I so I did start to develop like a hierarchy. It's like a first batch of working on my social anxiety. And then I revisit it back in my 40s. I'm not that old. I'm in my I'm like, 52 but because it's a good daily practice. But to speak on, like, introvert versus social anxiety, one of the things that I did as an exposure was I signed up for this conference. It was like, an entrepreneur conference or whatever, and I was like, we're gonna go alone in it's another state. And then I even, like, I kind of developed because I named my social anxiety para, because it makes me feel really paranoid. And so I kind of personified it as an element of myself that I didn't want that was this negative critic. And then there was this Natasha 2.0 who was like, this, like, annoying cheerleader, who was like, You got to go to this conference, and you got to, you know, sign up and go and and then she was like, you should get a roommate, you know, which really pushed me over the edge. And so let's get a stranger, you know, who's going to the conference. Going to the conference too. Because people were looking for roommates. The roommate was, I couldn't decide, and this is in the book. I was like, trying to figure out, like, do I want to diagnose her? Like, she's definitely quiet, you know, does she have social anxiety too? And so we had dinner, and she's like, you know, not talking, and she's distracted or whatever. And so I thought, Oh, I think she might have social anxiety as well. And then I meet this other girl randomly who just walks up to me, thank goodness, because I was like, overwhelmed, and she's outgoing, and she's an extrovert, and she, like, just takes me under her wing. And so the whole weekend, I'm like, learning I'm watching her, like, how she's talking to these strangers, and I see my roommate who was very like, not friendly and wasn't really engaged. She read a book at night, and I eventually, I was like, I think she's an introvert. Like, I wouldn't sit there and read a book. She doesn't seem to care. But I saw her when we were, you know, taking a lunch break, and there's a sea of people, and she's just sitting there on the grass reading. And I was like, that's a comfortable introvert. That's the difference, you know, I have social anxiety. I'm totally aware, and she is in the middle of the sea of people, and just wanting to recharge sitting there. And that eventually became my goal, like, I want to accept who I am. But the problem was, if I'm sitting in like, let's say I'm sitting in an auditorium with a sea of people, my social anxiety is like, oh my gosh, you're the biggest loser. People are staring at you, grab your phone, look busy. This is so awkward. Everybody else has friends. Look at them talking over there, and it will it's non stop. And I realized I don't want to be sitting with a group of people, but I want to be able to sit there and be like, I'm cool. This is fine. This is who I am. I'm not the life of the party, and so it's rectifying that, and that's what I learned about myself in the book, was, like, I am a solid introvert. I don't know if I would have been I wanted to be an actress when I was in fourth grade, and I was really loud, so I don't know if, like, the bullying in middle school, like, shut that down, but I know now, like, I'm a solid introvert, and my goal wasn't to have a large group of friends. My goal was, Can I sit in public, in groups and not feel like there's a spotlight.

    KC Davis 29:24

    You know, one of the things that strikes me, and I say this as a morally neutral term, but just as an observation, like, there's quite a bit of self absorption in social anxiety, of like, self preoccupation, and I wonder how much, how many people are trying to fix their social anxiety by treating it like a self esteem issue. Like, well, I just need to think better about myself. I need to like myself more. I need to like that kind of thing. But it seems like all you wanted to do was just. Think about yourself less, like, that's what you saw in the lady reading the book. It wasn't that she, like, liked herself more than you. She just, like, was able to sit in a place and not have to overthink how everyone in that place was thinking about her and, like, whether it was weird to be reading a book, or whether anyone was judging her reading a book, or something like that. And I mentioned that just because I feel like that's one of, like, I feel like my life lessons was that, like, there were so many issues that I tried to treat as I can solve this if I just like myself more. And then I realized, like, no actually, like, I can solve this by just like, learning how to think about myself less frequently. You know what I mean. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, I can just go whether it was like body issues or insecurities or any of those kind of things, because it seems like that's the freedom, not that you have to be socially suave, or that everyone has to like you, or that you have to like yourself, but just that you could exist in a public place without feeling like all eyes are on you, or having to like think In that kind of third person, yeah,

    Natasha Daniels 31:02

    I mean, I did feel like I for me, like I had to accept the reality that people may not like me and that I was okay with that. And for me, I did have to become as cliched as it sounds like. I had to become my own best friend and my own advocate, where it was like this, screw you. I don't care if you like me attitude. And once I got that, when I was like, I'm gonna put myself in situations. So one time, one of my exposures was, if I see that I'm doing something that's bothering other people, I'm gonna keep doing it. It was like, just this mental game I was playing with myself. And so I was in this gym in my community, and I was somebody was on this exercise machine that was squeaking, and it was squeaking, and it was super annoying. And we were all getting annoyed. I could tell everyone it was a very small gym and and I couldn't tell what exercise equipment was doing that. And so, like, 10 minutes later, I found it because I'm on it and it's like, er and squeaking. And I was like, No, you were gonna do 50 reps. You have to finish the 50 reps. And I was like, mortified, but I was doing it because I wanted to put myself in situations where it wasn't going to be a positive response. Like, can I put myself in situations where I might have a confrontation, or I might be annoying people, or people legitimately don't like me in that moment? And can I accept that? I think sometimes on the surface, we do social anxiety exposures, like, let's prove that people are going to be nice to you, or let's prove that you can get along with people, or that it's going to go well. And that was not my goal. My goal was like, Can I care less about what people think? And actually, ironically, care more about what I think? And so my self esteem did grow. I think the more I worked on my exposures, because I was, like, rooting for myself, but it

    KC Davis 32:41

    seems like that was the result, not the like. Because I think what you just said is kind of what I was, what I was trying to say, which is, like it wasn't, let's prove that I'm so likable and that I'm not that I that it's not true, that people aren't going to be annoyed with me. It almost seems like you approached it more like a distress tolerance exercise, rather than like a self love exercise. And when you learn the distress tolerance of, yeah, people might be judging me, or like, Oh, I'm not being liked right now, like that led to you having higher self esteem.

    Natasha Daniels 33:17

    It got smushy, yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's smooshy. I feel like I started to really, like, pay attention to the negative, like critic in my head. And then I started, like, I forced myself I did, like, a lot of mental exercises. I would force myself to not, like, negate what I was saying. Like, if I was like, Oh my gosh, like, you look like such an idiot, it would be like, what's another way to say that to myself? Or what it's something I do like about myself, and not in a very trivial way, but like, can we double down on liking your quirks, you know? And then somebody said, like, gave me a compliment, I always have to negate it. Like, if someone says, Oh, I like your shoes, I'd be like, Oh, I got them at pay less, like they really were like, or got them at, like, goodwill, like, I always had to, like, put myself down. And so I made this mental rule, like, if someone compliments you, you just have to say thank you, which was so uncomfortable. Just be like, thank you. Oh, I appreciate that. So I did a lot of games, but I really feel like, along with the exposure, because I don't think the exposure would have worked if I wasn't like, you know what? Honestly, it was like this screw you attitude that came before the exposure. I was like, I'm so tired of what everyone thinks. I'm like, Screw everybody. Like, I love myself, I'm quirky, I'm not your flavor. That's a you problem, not a me problem. I got kind of feisty and angry about it, and I was like, I don't care if my hair doesn't look good, or I don't care if you don't want to be my friend, or I don't care if I sit here in this auditorium and you're worried about that. That's a you problem. And so I got a little feisty, and then, at the same time, was putting myself in exposures. And so I think it was a two for up for me, yeah,

    KC Davis 34:42

    well, it does. It sounds like it goes hand in hand, but I do like the distinction you made where it was like, I do think a lot of us make the mistake that, like, we first need to, like, sit in our closet and convince ourselves we're worthy, and then we can go out and do things, as opposed to Yes. And I think. So what I hear you saying is a lot of even kind of like self compassion. And Christy Neff actually makes a distinction where she talks about self compassion and she talks about fierce self compassion. And fierce self compassion is angry. It is fu it is, I don't care. It is this, like, feistiness of advocacy. And so I like, I mean, it kind of sounds like exactly the same thing, which is funny, because, like, you know, when I wrote how to keep house while drowning, that was kind of the backbone of that book, was we have to do these at the same time. Like, we have to have this, like, gentle skill building, where, yes, we're looking for accommodations, but we're also like, doing the thing right, and we have to have this like, emotional skill of self compassion, where we're like identifying when we're being critical and we are, you know, trying to change the way we're talking about that. And like giving ourselves permission to be human, and giving ourselves permission to, you know, not always be perfect. And I just, I feel like, the older I get, the more I feel like that's like most issues, right? Is like that double approach of like gentle skill building that has to balance accommodating and, you know, challenging exposure and those, like emotional skills, like they really does have to be both,

    Natasha Daniels 36:26

    yeah, it does. And, I mean, and even it's a daily practice, like, even, you know, currently, I have to ask myself some, some of the time, like, do I do I want to go there, you know? Or am I forcing myself to go there just because I think I'm avoiding because of my social anxiety, or do I just not care and I don't want to, you know? And so it's like, because you want to be true to yourself, and it's not just about throwing yourself off the cliff all the time, which is what I did initially. It's like, you know, sometimes I don't really want to go there, or I actually learned how to say no more with my social anxiety, you know, like I often said yes because I didn't want to hurt someone else's feelings, or I felt like I wanted them to like me. And so I'm saying no to a lot more stuff as well, because, like, that is my authentic self, yeah.

    KC Davis 37:10

    I mean, people pleasing has a lot of forms, yeah? And in some ways, you know, I can see how much more of a boundary person you would become in that process, yeah,

    Natasha Daniels 37:21

    to protect because you become your friend. You know, you're like, I Natasha, doesn't want to

    KC Davis 37:28

    go, you know? Well, Natasha, this has been another great conversation. Can you tell everybody? Tell us again, the name of your book and where we can find it.

    Natasha Daniels 37:35

    Yeah, you can. It's called out of my shell, and it's where books are sold online, you can go to social anxiety reality.com. Is the website for it, and I did create a separate Instagram account just for social anxiety, which is social anxiety reality, where I do reels, and I just like they're embarrassing, I try not to watch them. That's my daily struggle. So yeah, if you want to be voyeuristic, you can check that out. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. You.

Christy Haussler
122: Addressing Sexual Violence on College Campuses is Easier than You Think with Nicole Bedera

Today’s topic carries a degree of sensitivity, so consider this a trigger warning if you are sensitive to discussions about sexual assault and sexual harassment. Our focus is on how universities and workplaces are dealing with these issues–and how they can do it better. My guest is Nicole Bedera, a sociologist and author with a Ph.D. Her upcoming debut book is On the Wrong Side: How Universities Protect Predators and Betray Survivors of Sexual Violence.

Show Highlights:

  • Nicole’s background as a victim advocate in the criminal justice system

  • College as the entry point into an adulthood of privilege for perpetrators of violence

  • The biggest challenges for universities regarding sexual violence

  • Title IX: where it all began in 1980

  • Punishing perpetrators AND meeting the needs of survivors—can we do both?

  • Power, punishment, and consequences

  • Nicole’s surprise when she dug deeper into sexual assault cases

  • The myth: Sexual violence only happens from evil men.

  • White supremacy history and sexual assault

  • Barriers to justice and societal norms

  • The truth: Perpetrators rarely change their behavior.

  • The research shows that a lot of men will stop perpetrating IF they know there will be negative consequences.

  • There is little accountability on college campuses for perpetrators.

  • The need to create safe spaces for survivors over perpetrators

  • The Brett Kavanaugh scenario

  • What we CAN fix to have huge ripple effects

Resources and Links:

Connect with Dr. Nicole Bedera: Website, Twitter, and On the Wrong Side book

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:05

    Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle. Care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and today we are going to talk about something that is a little bit of a sensitive topic. So just sort of putting a trigger warning out there, if you couldn't tell by the title, we're going to be talking about sexual assault, specifically sexual assault sexual harassment, and how universities and workplaces are dealing with it and how they can deal with it better. And our guest today is Nicole Bedera. She has a PhD. She's a sociologist and an author. She has an upcoming book called on the wrong side, how universities protect perpetrators and betray survivors of sexual violence. Nicole, thank you for being here.

    Nicole Bedera 0:43

    Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

    KC Davis 0:45

    So tell us a little bit about yourself, like, how did this kind of become your area of expertise?

    Nicole Bedera 0:50

    Yeah, so I started out as a victim advocate, actually, and I was working inside the criminal justice system, specifically in the hospitals with meeting with victims during forensic exams, which you might know was a rape kit. So a lot of the time, I was one of the first people that a survivor was asking very basic questions about what happened to them. Why is sexual assault so common? Why is it happening to so many people? Why did it happen to me? Is it something I did? And for a lot of people, it was their first window into what happens if you try to report and it doesn't look the way people expect. If you watch a lot of SVU, you're pretty horrified when you see the way it actually works. And so they would ask these really simple questions around, why does it work this way, and is this a good way to do it? I'm kind of surprised by what's going on. And at the time, this was about 10 years ago, a little more than that, the academic literature wasn't very well developed to answer those questions. The questions that we had were mostly victim blaming, or the answers that we had were mostly victim blaming, they were things like, well, here are the risky behaviors you behaved in, and this is why you are in the situation you're in. And it just didn't feel right to answer that way. We were not trained to answer that way either for what it's worth, but the other response of saying we just don't know didn't feel satisfying either. So I decided to get a PhD and study how sexual violence happens in our society, why it's so predictable, why so many of these cases look the same, and also why our responses just aren't working for survivors, and why it's so rare for survivors to get their needs met when they come forward. I ended up on college campuses mostly just because college is the entry point for the most privileged adults in our society to learn the norms of adulthood. So if violence is normal on a college campus, it's gonna feel normal in a workplace, if it's normal for your school to sweep things under the rug, you'll expect that in your family, and you might that might be something you teach your own kids. And that's why I focus on college campuses, not because I think they're particularly unique, but because it is that entry point for the most powerful people in our society to be thinking about violence and thinking about their role in violence perpetration and violence response and in being victims too.

    KC Davis 3:01

    Okay, thank you. Here's kind of where I wanted to start, right? Because you're talking about how universities can be responding differently, and I want to start with like, what are some of the challenges that universities face when they're trying to address these issues of sexual violence? Because I think that one of the things that I think about a lot is I'm someone who like when someone tells me you know I was victimized, I believe them, but I also am not a person in charge of punishing the person that victimized them, and so just as a member of society, I've almost never met someone who says that they were sexually victimized that I didn't believe because, yeah, yes, I believe you. We believe victims, but if you are actually a person in charge of, like, handing down decisions that change people's lives, you know that's why we have, like, a court system when it comes to actually doing those sort of things. And it strikes me that, like, universities are in this weird in between where they're not a court system, but at the same time, they are making decisions that are affecting people's lives and futures and and I guess I just want to kind of start with what are some of the challenges that universities are facing when they're trying to deal with these things. I think

    Nicole Bedera 4:20

    one of the biggest challenges is exactly what you're talking about, which is they see a survivor coming forward as something that's bad for a perpetrator, and they see survivors as an object as evidence, which a part of how they've ended up in this place is not because the law requires them to do this. I want to be really clear about this. Everything I say today, schools could do better tomorrow, if they want to. They have so much flexibility in how they implement federal regulations around Title Nine and sexual violence and sexual harassment. But the issue is, they've been trying to mimic the criminal justice system. You. Even though the reason our schools are supposed to care about sexual violence is totally different than the criminal justice system. So the criminal justice system is focused on punishment, but if you look at the law of Title Nine, and it's the same thing in your workplaces too, but schools and workplaces are supposed to care about sexual assault, because if they don't do something about it, it creates a hostile environment for other women who cannot be safe in that space, and for the victims, we know that if, for example, they are forced to share space on campus with a perpetrator that really negatively impacts their academics and the academic opportunities that are open to them. So the entire title nine process on paper isn't supposed to be about punishment. It's about civil rights. It's about making sure that just because you were sexually assaulted doesn't mean that then you have to change your major, or you have to be the one to move out of your dorm to get away from this violent person, or that you have to be the one to sacrifice all of these opportunities. The original court case that about Title Nine, that said that schools have to care about sexual violence, was actually about these issues. So in this court case, it's called Alexander V L, if there any nerds that want to look it up, and it's from 1980 so it's been around for a while. And what happened in this case is that there was this culture of sexual harassment at Yale University, where professors would ask women for sexual favors in exchange for high grades. And it happened to such a degree that even women who had not received that kind of solicitation didn't feel like they could go to office hours, felt like something unsafe might happen. And that is the court case in which the judge at the time, you know, declined to hear the case because all of the students had left campus by that time. It's one of the big challenges in this particular field, as students move through pretty quickly. But he did write that it was really reasonable that if sexual violence is happening on college campuses to the point that victims and women more broadly, have to have a smaller experience, and they have to avoid some of the opportunities that then are open to only men as a result, that that's a form of sex discrimination. And so the biggest issue that I think campuses are dealing with right now is they're still thinking about what they should be doing in terms of the perpetrator and punishing the perpetrator and using the victim as evidence, as an object in the perpetrators story, where they're the main character and the victim is the side character who's trying to keep them from graduating. But that's not why victims come forward, and that's not the way they should be thinking about sexual assault. They should really be thinking about how this type of violence and having to share space with a perpetrator can make it hard to complete an education. And if they thought about it from that perspective, we'd have a really different system than the one we have right

    KC Davis 7:45

    now. And do you think that there's a way to you've said, like, okay, it's they treat it like it's about punishing the perpetrator. Do you think that if universities treated it not as punishing the perpetrator, but more as meeting the needs of the survivor? Is that separate from punishing the perpetrator, like if a survivor's needs is, I need to not see this person, or I need to be in safe you know that, like one of us has to move? Is there overlap there? It depends

    Nicole Bedera 8:12

    on how you think about punishment. And I actually think that abolitionists are the people we should look to, because they're very clear on what is punishment and what is consequences? And I think sometimes we think of things as punishment for perpetrators when they're actually just the natural consequences of committing an act of violence. And so one of the things that Maria Macapa writes that I think is really great. If you're not familiar with her work, you should get familiar. And it's worth noting that she started her work as an activist about campus sexual assault. That is where her beginnings come from. So she's very, very well aware of these issues, and one of the things that she says is that expecting a perpetrator to give up a position of power is not a punishment. They might not like it, but it's a consequence, and that in comparison to punishments which are inflicting suffering and cruelty. The intention is to sort of teach someone a lesson or to make them hurt for what they've done to someone else. A consequence is just recognizing, you know, we really can't trust you in this position of power anymore, because if we leave you in this position of power, you might hurt more people, or you need this position of power to perpetrate abuse, which is something that we don't think about it very much that way, but that's really true that one of the most common types of sexual violence that happens on college campuses is a professor sexually assaulting or harassing a graduate student, where they're their advisor. And so for anybody who hasn't been through a PhD program, it's really different than an academic advisor in an undergraduate setting, your PhD advisor literally decides when or if you graduate, and they have so much power over that decision that if they can hold that over you, they can get you to do a lot of things that you wouldn't agree to otherwise. And so in this case, saying, you know if you're sexually harassing students, we can't trust you with advising graduate students. It's not. Much about teaching the perpetrator a lesson. It's a form of harm reduction. It's a form of saying, We don't want you to be in this powerful position that you are abusing to hurt other people. So to go back to some of the examples we've been talking about before, things like switching dorms. You know, I don't really think of it as a punishment to say that if you perpetrate a sexual assault, you have to live in a different dorm, or that you can't live on campus at all. I see that as a consequence, which is that if we don't do this, the victim will be the one who feels like they have to leave. And that's another thing that I think a lot of the time, whether it's a college campus or workplace or wherever, people aren't thinking about quite the right way when it comes to sexual violence, they seem. I think the most generous read is to say that they want to be able to keep both people to say, you know, violence has happened. Can the victim and the perpetrator just both find a way to stay in this workplace, to be nice to each other? But that isn't something that is physiologically possible for the victim. It's never safe for a victim to remain around their perpetrator, and victims do it, let's be clear, victims do it, but it always brings on a series of harms, things like being more stressed out. Victims that are forced to share space with their perpetrator are more likely to have PTSD, anxiety, depression, sleep difficulties. They're more likely to develop chronic stress related conditions like migraines, back pain, heart disease and cancer. So even though people can do it, it's with a cost that most victims will eventually opt out once it's safe for them to do so. And so the decision we're really making is not, how can we keep both people? It's Which one do you want to keep? And that's where I really hesitate to think about these interventions as a punishment for the perpetrator, because it's just a natural consequence of violence, and we're deciding, is that borne by the victim? Are we going to keep making things harder and harder for the victim? Are we going to say this is just the way things are now the perpetrator is the one who made the decision to be violent, and they're the one who should bear the consequences of being violent.

    KC Davis 12:06

    And I feel like all that makes sense, and but I want I'm wondering is, like, there's nothing that you're saying that I disagree with at all, especially when we're talking in the theoretical where, like, we definitely know in our theoretical like, who the perpetrator is who the victim is. And, like I said, I don't think I've ever met a woman I didn't believe, but I'm thinking as a university like, do you think that that's why the universities, sort of, like, mistakenly try to replicate the justice system, not only from the punishment perspective, but from the like, what are we supposed to do if, you know, one person is saying it happened and the other person is saying it didn't, and now we have to choose who are we going to keep and they're like, I would assume they're equally worried about, like, what if I make the wrong decision on either side of those things? And so is there a way that I can almost like, you know, soft peddle, some in between solution, right, where I'm keeping them both, or I'm making them compromised so that I can avoid having to basically, like, pronounce who I think is telling the truth. Like, how do universities handle, you know, that aspect of it? Because that's kind of the part where it seems like they're trying to be the court system, where they're, like, looking for the evidence and trying to figure out what really happened. And I guess I'm wondering, like, does that have to be a step in order to serve a survivor? Or, like, how are universities handling that aspect of it? So I want to answer

    Nicole Bedera 13:37

    that two different ways, because I think that there are two different answers. I want to be clear from the beginning that there are a lot of things that survivors need that don't involve a perpetrator, that we don't need to adjudicate whether or not they're being truthful. We know the research is so clear that overwhelmingly they are, that when people make false allegations, researchers like me, we know what they look like. And one of the one of the things that people don't realize is that most false allegations do not name a perpetrator, and so for the most part, when a victim is coming forward about a specific person, that is a trustworthy claim, the big exception to that is when perpetrators who are facing accountability proceedings accuse their victim of violence, which is something that's been on the rise. Debt the herd is a really good example of this, but that too experts, which I think it's fair to say that our HR departments, our title nine offices, they should become experts on these issues. We can recognize these patterns. We know what they look like. And so in the case of these types of retaliatory complaints, it's that there is a victim who is speaking out first, and that the perpetrator is really trying to recast their self defense or things that they are doing, like speaking out in the first place as defamation, as violence, even though that's not the victim's goal. One of the things that we look for when we tell apart victims and perpetrators is is this person trying to get away from someone and maintain their autonomy, or are they looking to control? Someone and control what they're allowed to do. And sometimes, to an untrained eye, those things can look similar, but to a trained expert, they're very, very easy to tell apart. And so in a lot of scenarios, we should just believe victims and we should give them what they want. I think in the context of things like workplace accommodations, like something that really helps victims of stalking is to be able to be late to work sometimes, so if their stalker is outside their door, they don't have to walk past their stalker or else they'll lose their job. And that can actually make it harder for stalkers to stalk. If the victim is no longer going to be leaving there outside the front of their door at the same time every day, then they can't predictably be there to have an interaction with the victim, right? Something like that. I don't think we need to even adjudicate whether or not something happened. It's an easy thing to be more flexible. We should just be more flexible in cases where the perpetrator is involved, where we're asking for something like for the perpetrator to be removed from a specific place. My personal opinion, an expert opinion, is that we should err on the side of believing victims, that in this period where we're figuring out what happened, we should put protections in place. And those may need to be temporary for a period of time, but we already, you know, it's funny, we actually kind of already do this in the criminal justice system with things like protective orders. We there's a temporary period where the protection is so life saving and so crucial that we put it in place immediately and then revisit it later. And there are a lot of things that I think schools should be doing that way, and it's worth noting that they already do this for other disciplinary procedures. If a straight cisgender man punches a straight cisgender man on campus, they put that person on suspension until the case is over. That is the way a lot of schools already handle this. We're making an exception for sexual assault and treating it differently than other cases of violence on campus.

    KC Davis 16:48

    Well, I would imagine there's probably quite a bit of misogyny that goes with that, right, which is like, Well, women aren't as trustworthy, women are hysterical, women are vengeful, all these things. And I do think that, like when you say, you know, universities are trying to mimic the court system. They don't need to do that. I feel like your answer really illustrated that you have to deconstruct that on several levels, right? Like, your first point of like, it's not about like, it's not about the perpetrators on trial and the victim is the evidence, right? It is, there is a survivor that we are serving, and we need to think of it that way. But even deeper than that, when you were talking about how there are so many things that don't have anything to do with whether or not you are aren't doing anything with the perpetrator, like so many needs that you can meet. And then I think your third point of like there are things that you can do in the interim that err on the side of safety, and we should probably always err on the side of safety. And it seems like if Title Nine has made it legally a university's job to address these issues, then they are beholden to have experts, or to learn the expertise that you know in order to make those kind of decisions about, you know, what does it look like when someone reports, and how can we go about this in the safest way possible? Yeah,

    Nicole Bedera 18:17

    and I want to say too that underlying all of this is this myth that school administrators and the criminal justice system really want us to believe, which is that all cases of sexual assault or He Said, She Said, and that there's not enough evidence to be able to make a good decision. But one of the things that I was really surprised by during my year at a university, which is what the book is about, I spent a year observing these processes from the inside, interviewing the victims, the perpetrators and the school administrators. So I really got to see all sides of this issue. And one of the things I was most surprised by is how much evidence there actually is in a lot of these cases. It's the digital age. People are not just talking in person. There are text messages, there are emails in cases of sexual harassment, especially, you know, I did all this work before the pandemic, but I could imagine even more so in 2020 when a lot of classroom interactions were moving on to zooms that were being recorded, that you have all of these messages that are right there. There's no question about what happened a lot of the time. And I actually start the book with a case like that. So there was a case of a graduate student who she attended a networking event on campus, and the keynote speaker took a real interest in her somehow dug up her email address, she doesn't know how, and started offering to be her mentor. And over a course of text messages and emails, it escalated into sexual harassment and some actions that started to resemble stalking, that he was not leaving her alone. When she was saying she wanted to be left alone, there was some escalating threats and those sorts of language, and she was worried he was going to start showing up at her house and things like that. In this case, the title nine office sort of replied by saying, we can't possibly know what happened. We would need. Interview him, we would need to know his side of the story, but everything happened in text messages and emails, so there's actually no question about what happened. And I was surprised by how many cases look like that. Now, I think maybe there was some truth in the past that it was hard to find evidence in these cases, but that really isn't the case anymore, and even in cases where a victim and perpetrator went into one space alone, and that's where the violence took place, I was really stunned by how often the perpetrators narratives of what happened mimicked the victims, but they had been trying to convince investigators that what they did should just be considered okay and that it's not that bad. And this makes me think of research I did in the past where I interviewed young men about how they seek consent, and this phrase kept coming up, which was, well, it wasn't rape, it's just non consensual. And so what they would do when they were saying that something was just non consensual is they would come up with reasons that a victim deserved what happened to them. And so if we can cut through that victim blaming and say there is no scenario in which something non consensual is okay, there is no victim who deserves this, well then it's a lot easier to make the right decision. You know, one of the cases I talk about in a lot of depth in the book is one where I did interview everybody involved, and at the very beginning of both the victim and the perpetrator's statement, they both recognized that before the sexual assault occurred, the victim had clearly communicated she did not want to have sex, and the perpetrator agreed that they would not have sex, and yet that case still ended in what the school calls insufficient evidence, because They were looking for all of these complexities. And there's actually a term by another researcher named Jackie Cruz, who I work with very closely. She's very smart, but she calls that. That's what she calls it. She calls it orchestrating complexity, looking at cases that are clear, cut and straightforward, and trying to find reasons to justify inaction. Because it makes us feel guilty. It makes us feel like the bearer of bad news to be the one who says to a perpetrator, you know what, you have violated our Code of Conduct. You are not someone who is safe to be in this community, and we actually think you should leave people feel guilty about it, and a lot of the reason they feel guilty about it is because so many of us have been socialized our whole lives, that men are valuable, that men's space needs to be protected at all costs, and that we need to find a way to, you know, lead them in the right direction, as opposed to setting firm boundaries with them well. And I

    KC Davis 22:34

    wonder if that's connected to not only are we socialized to think all of that, but we're also, I think, historically, socialized to believe that sexual violence only happens from evil men, like it's only like conditioned to believe that sexual violence is so abhorrent that it only happens from an evil person. And so then you're looking at this person, and you're going, well, they don't seem evil. And you're looking at even some of those areas where you know we have this idea that rape is holding a woman down while she screams. And I just wonder how many people you know when you get in the position to have to navigate these you're in a position of leadership when you come across realizing that, like most of these cases, are not like that, and they're not ready to sort of look at the reality that like no like people that you might relate to do things like this. And I even wonder if part of it is like people in power needing to distance themselves from the idea that they could ever be capable of something like this, like it needs to be this crime that only people who are completely othered would ever do. And it's a little too close to comfort to realize, oh shit, this is a mistake I could have made right in college, right? Or maybe I have made well,

    Nicole Bedera 23:59

    and I want to shift the framing on that a little bit, because the research is pretty clear, people do not sexually assault people on accident. We've known that for 40 years that and it gets back to the same thinking that I talked about in my research before, that when men are confronted with things they've done that they know that they hurt somebody, they know it wasn't great behavior, they'll make these artificial distinctions of it's not rape, it's just non consensual. That's what that looks like, where somebody will say, I know I was hurting that person, but I thought I was allowed to do that.

    KC Davis 24:28

    And that's what I mean, is it's not that, like I thought rape was okay, and it's not that I thought what I was doing was okay. It's I knew what I was doing wasn't okay, but in my head, it wasn't rape, it was this other non okay thing that I could justify as not being the taboo thing that I should be punished for. So you shouldn't really punish me.

    Nicole Bedera 24:49

    That's exactly right, and that's where the white supremacy history comes into play, right? Because this idea of rape being something that comes from a stranger in the bushes is really a racialized. Class history intended to cut down on what was considered to be loitering by free black men. After the abolition of slavery, there was an idea of, if they're public, they're dangerous, but there was nowhere private for them to go. They didn't have private property because of slavery, right? And so that's where a lot of our modern ideologies about sexual violence and who its perpetrators are come from. It's this idea of black men, poor black men in particular, are who we think of as perpetrators of sexual assault, whereas wealthy white men who are doing the same thing to their spouses, to their children, well, we want to exempt that. And so that's where we get this distinction that a lot of us, we don't talk about it in a racialized way a lot of the time, but that distinction between stranger rape versus acquaintance rape, that's a way of saying, if we're the insiders, if we're the ones in position of power, if you know us, then it doesn't count. This is a way that we can treat women and children and transgender and non binary people as well, while also being able to hold this double standard for men of color in particular. And you see that dynamic on college campuses too. There's a real sense I heard this rhetoric around the stranger in the bushes or the creeper in the bushes from a lot of administrators saying that's what we thought all of sexual assault was, which, again, is a real indication that these administrators are not the experts they need to be, because that is sort of sexual violence, rape culture, 101 stuff is that stranger rape is really rare, and the most sexual violence happens between people who know each other. I learned that on my very first day in victim advocacy training, probably in the first 10 minutes, and I knew it before I got to that space too. And so it's a reflection of how little they know, but it's also their way of saying, you know, if somebody has the class privilege to be able to afford to be on our campus, they're not the kind of person we expect would commit sexual assault at all. And that really is the way they're thinking about it. Is anybody who has any kind of privilege, you know, that's the only kind of person that we admit. And so if they're here by default, we don't think that they could do something like this, and that's part of why school administrators feel so guilty. It is exactly what you're talking about. It's not what they expect it to look like. And I was really stunned by how many of them didn't expect that sexual violence was a real problem on college campuses at all. There's a lot of research. Well, there's a little research on this that when we do surveys of people who work in higher education, they don't think of campus sexual violence being a real issue despite all of the conversation in the media. And even if they think it happens at other schools, they think it doesn't happen at theirs. And so if that's the mindset of the person who's adjudicating a sexual assault, of course, their response is to be shocked and to have a hard time believing it. And that's a really big theme. And what I saw is just this disbelief of Wait, people really act like this here. If it were this bad and this violent, wouldn't I know? But it's just so normal that, no, we don't see it very clearly well. When

    KC Davis 27:52

    you said at the beginning of our conversation, you know, to be clear, these are things that could change tomorrow. Like, I think that when you know, as someone that really doesn't know a lot about the inner workings of how colleges are handling these cases, or what the data looks like of these cases. I know from my perspective. You know, if you ask me, like, what do you think the biggest barrier was? Like, I would say, I think it would be hard to try and figure out what's really going on and feeling this burden. Like, you don't want to unfairly punish someone, but you also don't want to ignore a victim. And what if you make a mistake this way? What do you make? And I think that that it seems like that's a myth, yeah, like that is not the barrier. Like, the barrier is not it's difficult for us to know what's going on. The barrier is truly things that could be changed if people just wanted them to change enough, and if people would get educated, and if college campuses would just, like, take five minutes to figure out the best evidence based way to approach this.

    Nicole Bedera 28:53

    I think that's exactly right, that, yeah, the problem isn't that we don't know what's going on. It's that we don't want it to be true, and that the perpetrators aren't the people that we hoped they would be. This is the way I feel about the metoo movement in general, and a lot of our conversations about sexual violence in society. Something I say to my students a lot is that everybody thinks sexual assault is wrong. Everybody thinks rape is wrong up until the perpetrator is someone they already know and love, and then there's a real hesitancy to support survivors. And I see this at my research with survivors all the time. If they do something like just tweet out me too, I've been sexually assaulted, they'll get support from everyone in their lives. But if they name a perpetrator, and the perpetrator is someone who is in their family or in their friend group, they will find themselves pushed out because people have a really hard time grappling with it, and people just they don't. A lot of people don't think that this is a good reason to stop being friends with somebody. A lot of people just don't think that sexual assault is a good reason for someone to be expelled from school. And I think that's our biggest challenge, is making the really strong case that it actually is a very good. Reason to end your friendship with somebody if they've committed a sexual assault, especially if you are friends with the survivor too, and if the survivor can't be safe and can't spend time around you, if every time you have a birthday party, you're inviting their rapist, you can't really be surprised that then they're the one who's gonna end up leaving their social situation. And that's one of the things that we're increasingly finding as sexual violence researchers, is that how sexually or how traumatic sexual assault is isn't determined by the physical violence itself. The thing that determines how traumatic sexual assault is is how the victim is treated once it's over, and a lot of victims their entire life unravels because everyone in their lives is focusing on being fair to the perpetrator. And I put fair and big air quotes there, because saying you can't be friends with me is a pretty fair boundary to set. There's this real there's this myth that when somebody is accused of sexual assault, it will ruin their lives, and that everyone in society will shun them and turn away from them. They'll lose out on every opportunity. Researchers actually find it's the opposite, that being accused of sexual assault confers benefits on perpetrators, that everybody is sort of thinking the same way, thinking everybody else is going to take the side of the victim, so I'm going to be the one person who takes the side of the perpetrator, but everybody is thinking that everybody is protecting the perpetrator, and before long, it's the victim who's the one who disappears. One of the studies that, you know, I can never unread it, and I'm glad I read it, but I hope other people feel the same way, because it feels like something that's fundamentally unfair. There's this study where they it's called an audit study. So what they do is they create these fake resumes that are identical, except for a couple of different you know, the name will be different, and then a couple of different details, and they will show them to participants and say, Would you hire this person? How much money do you think they deserve? And in this case, the detail that was different was that one person had been accused of sexual harassment in their last job, and the other person had been the victim of sexual harassment in their last job, and participants overwhelmingly preferred to hire the perpetrator and to pay them more money. And so that is actually the normative view in our society, is that we really do side with perpetrators, thinking that we are giving them a second chance. And I just want to be clear that, because that's such a norm in our society, perpetrators really change their behavior. They have no incentive to do so. They have a lot of people giving them credit for something they haven't done, and it's really, really important that we do hold them accountable in meaningful ways. And I say this not just from a moral perspective if it feels like the right thing to do, but also from a pragmatic perspective. One of the things that we also know in the research is that the places that are safe where sexual violence doesn't occur are just places where it isn't tolerated, and one of the reasons that that happens is because most perpetrators of sexual violence are looking to impress other men. Most perpetrators are men, and they're looking to impress other men. So if they're in a place where, when they sexually harass someone, a co worker says, You know what? That's funny. I think that's hilarious. I want to work with you on more projects. I want to promote you. Then, of course, that's going to quickly turn into an environment where a lot of sexual harassment is happening, and that is the main reason that men commit these acts is to bond with other men. The Kavanaugh case is a really clear example of this, where we haven't heard of many stories, not to say they don't exist, but we haven't heard of many stories of Brett Kavanaugh sexually assaulting women privately. We hear stories of him doing it publicly to entertain other men who are laughing. And so when we instead of giving benefits to perpetrators, when we instead say, that's the kind of person I'm not inviting back to this party, that's the thing that creates safe places. And one of the things we see in the research is that a lot of men will stop perpetrating if they know there will be negative consequences, instead of positive ones, because they feel kind of ambivalent about the violence itself. So

    KC Davis 34:06

    you know, even if you are someone who is worried about or thinks it's important to give second chances, what I hear you saying is the best way to give someone a second chance, the best way to give someone the opportunity to change and grow is to have zero tolerance. Yeah,

    Nicole Bedera 34:24

    I say this a lot to people who, again, coming from a very well intentioned, well meaning place, they find out that a friend of theirs has committed sexual assault, and they say, but if they don't have support, how will they ever change? One of the things I say most often is, well, you were in their life when they committed this act of sexual violence, and so the presumption that you're the right person to push them in that direction, you know, it's a big assumption. Are you maybe somebody who tolerated their violence? Are you somebody who, you know, if you keep them around, are you sending them the message that this is an okay thing to do and this isn't a deal breaker for you? I. And we don't have a lot of studies on what happens to individual perpetrators when they face boundaries, in part because it's so rare, it's hard to study. You would be really hard pressed to find a group of men who committed acts of sexual violence and did not benefit from that violence. So it's an open question, but I do think it's worth trying. I do think that the research we have so far around organizations that are safe would tell us that if a perpetrator going back to the college campus, example, if they're expelled and they have to go to another school, at least, they have to make new friends when they get there. And because of the way a lot of our campus organizations work, they might make really different friends. You know, it can be difficult to rush a fraternity as a junior. It can be difficult to join an athletic team as a senior, if you've already completed so much of your education. And so we know that the perpetrators on college campuses, they're really concentrated in a few places that they are overwhelmingly places that are very masculine or male, only that they are competitive and that they're hierarchical. So places like you know exactly where I was talking about before fraternities, where you have a hierarchy within them, and the rushing process is competitive. Football teams where there's a captain, there's a hierarchy of which string are you on. But also places like the marching band have pretty high rates of sexual violence perpetration too, even there, where you have individual sections being male dominated, and there's a hierarchy of first chair to whatever it's chair. So knowing that a lot of these organizations, because they are so hierarchical, you have to start at the bottom and move up, having a perpetrator start in the middle often means they have to go somewhere without that kind of hierarchy, and they might make different kinds of relationships that might be safer for them. The best predictor of whether or not a man will be violent is whether or not he is friends with men who are misogynistic and so disrupting those friend groups is a pretty good idea. Actually, it is a good way to potentially give somebody a second chance, which

    KC Davis 37:08

    I do think you know, back to your conversation about punishments and consequences, I think that is exactly those two things to marry together. I think are exactly how we should be thinking about things like dispelling fraternities. You know, there's been lots of cases where, you know, a survivor comes forward and says, you know, this happened at a fraternity house or at a fraternity party, and the college has disbanded the fraternity or kicked them off campus for however many years until basically nobody who's involved in that fraternity would be around when they were allowed back on campus. And you know, you hear kind of that side of, well, what about people that didn't do anything, and what about it's important for how men need to bond, and they need the support or whatever. And but I think going back to what you just said, which is, like, disrupting those social groups is the most beneficial thing you can do for the survivors, for the community at large. And it sounds like even for people who are in that social group to prevent them from perpetrating or from kind of going in that direction. And I think when we think about consequences versus punishment, that I think that's another helpful way, because when we talk about punishment, we have this big thing about like, Well, you shouldn't be punished if you're not the perpetrator. But consequences are different. You can suffer a consequence of someone else's actions. Victims

    Nicole Bedera 38:28

    do it all the time, and we're really comfortable putting that on victims

    KC Davis 38:32

    exactly like if you're participating in a in a group, in a culture, then yeah, you might suffer the consequences of the perpetrator being from that group or that culture. And again, like disbanding those groups, not as a punishment, but as a like a risk, honestly, like a restorative, a restoration of community of like, the best thing we can do, because we know that there is some toxicity being bred here, is to disrupt it

    Nicole Bedera 39:01

    exactly. And you know, another thing that is sort of lurking in the background of this conversation is when we talk about something like disbanding a fraternity, we don't usually talk about all of the other opportunities for connection that will open up for its members. We think about it as you know, if you're expelled from this one university, then that is the end of your education. But it's not one of the things that I think is a strength of the work that I did is I got to interview the perpetrators too, including, you know, the one perpetrator who was expelled that year. And this is just a fact, I like to sneak into as many interviews as possible, but people are really concerned that the campus sexual violence proceedings are unfair to perpetrators, but your average university expels one perpetrator every three years. It's actually really, really rare for them to hold a perpetrator accountable in any meaningful way. When they do hold perpetrators accountable, still, the most common way they do that is by deferring sanctioning until after graduation and by. Saying you will be suspended, but only after you graduate, which is a non sanction, right? It's which is nothing. It's nothing, and it offers the victim nothing. Because often what happens in those cases is it's not safe for the victim to be on campus, so the victim takes a leave of absence, and the victim is the one who acted as if they had been suspended for two or three or however many years. And so that's sort of the reality of things right now. But to get back to what I was originally saying on this point, which is that there's this idea that when somebody is expelled, which again, is really, really rare, that this is the end of the road for them, that they will never get into another school. That wasn't true, that is not true, the perpetrators just go somewhere else. And that's upsetting in its own way, that the perpetrators just go somewhere else, and that there's no sort of the stigma that we think will be there for perpetrators of violence doesn't exist, and that schools aren't thinking about the safety of other students that schools really do. They don't hesitate to bring these men back onto campus. They often think they do a lot of victim blaming. They'll say, Oh, well, the particular victim who led them to violence, who made them act violently, they won't be here, so they'll be safe in this space, which is victim blaming. And it's not true. The one perpetrator who was removed school that I studied, he'd been removed from at least one other university before that, and so the idea that he would go somewhere else and be safe somewhere else. That was certainly not true. But all this being said when

    KC Davis 41:23

    we see this in other places too, like you see the police officers get fired and just go get hired by another, you know, police department. You see doctors who get lose a license, move to a different state, and

    Nicole Bedera 41:34

    part of the reason for that is because we don't have a lot of schools that have different social norms, and so they go into a school that kind of acts the exact same way. They fall in with similar people. So a big part of this whole thing I'm thinking of working is that we have to have schools that are committed to safety and to holding a different standard of their students. And that's a big part of making this type of change, too, on the prevention side. But the thing that I find kind of freeing about this reality, because we know what's horrible about it, but the thing that's kind of freeing about it is I don't think we have to worry too much about what happens to the perpetrator. Will their life be ruined? Because overwhelmingly, they're welcomed with opened arms wherever else they go. And so we really can think from an abundance mindset, when we say we're going to disband this fraternity, well, those men will be able to find other friends. They'll be able to find other social groups. The whole world is huge, and I think this is most visible when we talk about a really common thing that victims want. Actually, the most common thing that victims want in studies is to never see their perpetrator again, to never be in the same place as them again. And people will get really caught up in thinking That's so unfair, because what if the perpetrator wants to be where the victim is? And my response to that, after conducting this study, is they can be literally anywhere else in the world. If we're saying they can't be in the place where the victim is, that is one place at any given time that they can't go. And so we're getting really fixated on this one place when the whole rest of the world is still open to them and they are okay. And I think it helps us a lot to remember to be accurate about that and to stay grounded in reality, that when we hold a perpetrator accountable, we tend to feel guilty thinking, What if everybody else does what I do? But that's not the world we're living in. The world we're living in where this is maybe the only place they're going to be held accountable, and the rest of the world is open to them. So don't think about that. Think about the part that's only in your control, and the part that's in your control is things like creating a safe place for survivors so that they can stay instead of the perpetrator being the one to push them out.

    KC Davis 43:38

    Well, and the idea that college campuses are privileged people's first introduction to how the world is going to treat them is obviously very powerful when you think about a survivor, but when you think about a perpetrator, and I mean, is there some, you know, degree of men that probably are straight up sociopathic evil, like the kind of sure, but I think the majority of cases, it actually is kind of hopeful. That's not the majority of cases, because what that means is it's not about creating a society that has this really specific mode of identifying and punishing and segregating. And you know, what do we do about this? But it is the case that we might actually be able to prevent people from becoming perpetrators, if we get them at this developmental time in life where the institutions have no tolerance for it. How many of these men go on to be serial perpetrators, as you said, because the first time it happened, they're fine, and the men around them like it, and there is no fallout. And it's like, well, sweet, I like this experience. I can continue to do this right. Like, and how many times have we heard of cases where. But you couldn't find that person's first perpetration in their early adulthood. And to me, that's kind of hopeful, as if you are someone who wants to think from a restorative justice standpoint of like, this isn't like we could prevent this,

    Nicole Bedera 45:16

    right? And it makes me hopeful for that reason, for sure that taking a sociological perspective, because that's what I am. I'm a sociologist, one of the reasons I was drawn to thinking about violence sociologically is it feels like a losing battle if our form of sexual assault prevention is trying to change the hearts and minds of individual rapists who are getting benefited from committing violence and who are in positions of power in our society. Again, thinking about Brett Kavanaugh as an example, there is no world in which I over here on my little spot, am I going to be influencing the way he thinks and the way he acts? He's so powerful in this society. And that's, I think, one of the realities we don't think about very much when it comes to sexual violence. We tend to think about it when people are young, because that's when perpetrators tend to be sexually assaulting people who they are not married to. But when we think about sort of the next phase of violence as something that happens privately, in the home or in workplaces, where there's such a big power imbalance, people can't come forward, you know, it is really important to think about catching people early and teaching them that this is not an appropriate way to behave, and thinking about it sociologically, it just feels a lot more doable to me than having like a new round of potential perpetrators come up and going to them one by one and saying, We know that you'll be rewarded if you do this, but we hope you won't. Please don't. It just doesn't seem like it's gonna happen. But the other thing that I find really helpful about all of this, and that makes me feel very grounded, is that a lot of the time, people throw their hands in the air and get overwhelmed after violence has happened, and they say when they feel backed into a corner where they don't know what to do, what they'll eventually say is it would be better if we prevented it altogether. It's too late to help this victim. There are no good outcomes. And one of the things I like about this way of thinking about it is we never reach that place. We never reach that place where it's too late, because there's recognition that how damaging the sexual assault is is still up in the air for the victim, and that we can actually make violence less traumatic for victims if we give them support and inclusion and we try to keep their life from unraveling. And so for me, that feels helpful because it gives us an agenda like gives us a clear directive about what to do. And so we're not just coming up with what do we think is the right response that feels punitive enough or harsh enough against perpetrators, but instead, we're letting our response be guided by what will give a tangible benefit to the victim, what will make this better, and that, to me, also feels more hopeful. So we have the hopefulness around the prevention of perpetration, but also the hopefulness around restoring access to society for victims, making sexual assault less damaging, retaining women in places where currently we are hemorrhaging women. And there's one study that finds that one of the best predictors of whether or not a woman will complete a major in a STEM degree is whether or not they have a sexual violence history, and that it kind of makes sense when you think about all the stress structures that are involved that a lot of our STEM degrees in college, they include weed out classes, and if you were sexually assaulted the same semester you take organic chemistry and the perpetrator is in your class, then, yeah, there's a good chance you're going to fail that class, and there's a good chance that you're going to have to change your Major, and you're going to probably have to go into a major that's more female dominated, because those majors tend to be more flexible and more understanding about the types of things you're going through, whereas all the other majors that mostly cater to men just aren't really thinking about what survivors need. You know, you start to see very quickly how when this violence is happening with adolescent women, queer and trans people, that it leads to a lot of other segregation in society too. And that gives me a lot of hope as well. To say, Wow, if we could fix this one thing, if we could move in this one direction, the ripple effects might be a lot bigger than we think.

    KC Davis 49:17

    Yeah. And I think to your point, that just because the assault has already occurred doesn't mean you've missed the window of prevention, because preventing Fallout, preventing the post traumatic issues like you still. We're still in the world of prevention, with still so much that we can do,

    Nicole Bedera 49:38

    and we actually know a lot about what to do. We know a lot about what survivors need in the aftermath of violence. They need agency because sexual violence, it's not traumatic because it causes physical injury. Most of the time it doesn't the reason it's traumatic is because there's a loss of bodily autonomy, and that is inherently one of the most traumatic things. We can experience. And so part of how we heal it is giving survivors power back, respecting their agency, respecting the things they say they need. And so part of why survivors are traumatized by sexual assault in its aftermath is because when they go to their friends and say, I really need you to not invite my perpetrator to your birthday party, because I want to go and the thing they hear back is, well, I'm going to prioritize that person ahead of you. That's again, denying that agency. It's denying their assertion of what they need to be okay. And so we know that that kind of stuff makes a huge difference, and that the more that we create stability in survivors lives, the more that we tell them that they're valuable, that they are valued members of our society, and that we will put them first, the better they do. And it's something you can see really clearly in this college context, especially when students are trying to report there's this academic concept that's so useful, created by Jennifer fried, called institutional betrayal. And institutional betrayal is defined as actions or inactions taken by an institution that exacerbate trauma. And there's a list, and I have the list in the book. If you want to see the whole list, it's in the book, but there's a list of the things that we know exacerbate survivors trauma when we respond that way, and they are things like mishandling a reporting process, responding in ways that make sexual violence seem more likely in the future, responding in ways that tell the victim that they are not valuable, or they're not as valuable as another person, very commonly, their perpetrator. And the thing about institutional betrayal is it's not that it's just a bad thing or that exacerbates trauma a little bit. We actually find in the research that when victims experience these types of reactions, it exacerbates their trauma at the same severity as the violence itself. So another way of putting this is that survivors who experience institutional betrayal look the same on surveys as someone who was sexually assaulted twice in a very short period of time. And so when we're talking about how much we can take these burdens off of survivors, it's really significant. We're talking about reducing the trauma by half, or more than half. That's a huge thing to be able to make, just make it easier for somebody who's experienced sexual violence, to be able to show up the way they want in their lives, to be able to fully participate in our society. And again, that makes me really hopeful, because that's something we can do. We don't have to be going to perpetrators and trying to get convince them to do something different. We can just make their violence less damaging on our own without trying to involve them at all. And I say that not because I think it should be our job, but because I'm realistic about who is most committed to this work. I know that we are the ones who are most committed to this work, and so it feels nice when we can do it without needing the permission of the people who are causing harm. Well, Nicole,

    KC Davis 52:53

    this has been such a great conversation. I feel like I just took like a master class in such a difference in what I knew before this hour and what I know now. If you guys want to check out the book again, it's called on the wrong side, how universities protect perpetrators and betray survivors of sexual violence. Nicole, where can we find you if we wanted to do you have a website? Do you have kind of ways to follow your journey and your work?

    Nicole Bedera 53:18

    I do. I have a website. It's just my name. Nicole badera.com, I'm also on Twitter and trying out blue sky. I'm really, really trying this time, because I don't know how much longer I can stomach Twitter. But the other thing that I just want to plug here is that if you are someone who this all sounds really good to you, and you're involved in an organization that's trying to end violence within it, no matter what type of organization it is, we know all types of organizations have violence within them. The other place you can find me is I just founded a consulting group called Beyond Compliance consulting. We're very selective with our clients. We like to work with people who don't just want to meet the bare legal minimums for helping survivors and addressing sexual violence and gender discrimination. We work specifically with people who want to end it, and that is their goal. And so if you want to meet us for that, we'd love that too, and we're just beyond compliance consulting. Awesome. Well, thank

    KC Davis 54:06

    you again.

    Nicole Bedera 54:07

    Thank you for having me. You.

Christy Haussler
121: What if Children Designed Cities? with Mara Mintzer

What if our cities were designed with children participating in the process? What they would prioritize might surprise us all! My guest, Mara Mintzer, did a TEDx talk on the topic of including children in the city planning process, and she’s been involved in this kind of unique child-friendly endeavor in Boulder, Colorado, as the co-founder and Executive Director of Growing Up Boulder. Join us as we take a look at this topic!

Show Highlights:

  • Mara’s background and current role in Boulder, CO

  • Public spaces aren’t often designed for children (and mothers).

  • The United Nations guidelines for human rights for those under 18 years of age

  • Wisdom from the tiniest voices about slowing down, enjoying the world around us, and noticing our experiences on life’s journey

  • The Nature Everywhere Initiative in cities across the US

  • Are we supporting kids’ development with our public spaces?

  • The value in having culturally relevant third spaces for kids

  • What would a teen-friendly park look like?

  • Hearing the voices of many diverse groups that have been traditionally excluded

  • Feedback from people about what they want in their communities

  • Promoting involvement from kids to understand their issues and craft workable solutions

  • A few unexpected things that kids want in their spaces

  • The dilemma for parents in kid-friendly restaurants with “adult food” AND “kid food”

  • More relaxed parenting in other countries and better work-life balance

Resources and Links:

Connect with Mara Mintzer: Growing Up Boulder

Mentioned in this episode: The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:00

    Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle. Care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and today we're going to talk about designing cities with children in mind, but not just about designing them with children in mind, but actually designing them with children participating in the process of design. I'm here with Mara Mintzer, and I just recently watched her TED talk about this idea of including children in the design of cities. And Merrick, tell me who you are, and then let's talk about this, because you have actually done this in Boulder involved children in the planning process. So tell me a little bit of your background, absolutely.

    Mara Mintzer 0:41

    And I'll tell you my background, and I'll also say that when I first heard about child friendly cities, I also thought it was designing cities that would support young people, it didn't occur to me that it was with them. So I even had a learning curve. But My name is Mara Mintzer, and I am a co founder and executive director of growing up Boulder, we are now a nonprofit program. We were originally based at the University of Colorado, Boulder, and what we do is we elevate the voices of young people to make our communities more equitable and sustainable for everybody. For my career, I have been running programs for and with underserved young people. They are caregivers and parents for many years, both in New York City and in California, before I moved to Colorado. And when I moved to Colorado, I did some networking, and I heard this idea of child friendly cities, which I'd never heard of before. And I said, this has my name written all over it. I want to be a part of that. The

    KC Davis 1:39

    reason why this topic is so interesting to me is I had this experience probably about a year ago. My daughter was attending a preschool at the time, and I had gone to some parent involved thing, and she had to go the bathroom. So I went into the bathroom with her, and I noticed that all the sinks were really low and all of the little potties were really low, because it was like a preschool. And I was like, That's so clever. Of course, they would do that in the preschool. And I watched her independently go to the bathroom and wash her hands and get paper towels and do this whole routine that I didn't even know she could do independently. Because every time we go somewhere, I have to help her with it. I have to physically pick her up. You know, she gets water all over her clothes because she can't reach the sink. And after that, I started noticing all the places that we went. And it never occurred to me before that even the places that were made for children didn't have these features. Like, we were at the Children's Museum, we were at the zoo, we were at, you know, public parks with playgrounds. But I started noticing like, huh, isn't it interesting that even when they make something for children, designing for children in mind, doesn't reach the bathroom. And so that kind of opened me up to this thinking about how we don't really design public spaces to be hospitable for children, and in turn, they're not hospitable for mothers and parents. And when I talk about this on the internet, you know, you get this huge surge of parents kind of agreeing with me, but then you get this, like, kind of minority but vocal section of adults that are like, well, I don't want to have to look at children. And it's just an interesting you know, children really are a marginalized group, and I think it's so interesting that your approach is including them. So how did that even come about? Because that would not occur to me, I'm sad to say,

    Mara Mintzer 3:31

    Yeah, well, I mean, and you know, children are, and have always been, and will always be, a part of our society, and some societies are much more open to just having kids integrated and everything. So for instance, when I lived in Argentina, kids would come out to dinner, they would participate. There weren't adult and Kid activities. And so part of it is a mind shift of like there being kid things and adult things, when, in fact, that's really an artificial boundary that I think we create, but yeah, so the way I first learned about this concept was I met this professor, Willem von fleet, in at the University of Colorado, Boulder, and he had founded this children youth and Environment Center. And he explained that there were these child friendly city initiatives around the world. And if you take a step back, and this is going to get a little intellectual, but I think it's actually really important for us to know. So the United Nations has this treaty that's been signed by all the countries in the United Nations, except for the United States, but this treaty has been signed that says there are certain human rights that we need to respect for anyone under the age of 18, and they're different, like some are the same, but some are different from the human rights we think about for adults, like, for instance, the right to schooling, the right to assemble with your friends. You know, things that are not a given everywhere and all these cities work with UNICEF to create these child for. Family cities, and a way to do this is with the young people themselves. That's a key part, is youth participation and child participation. And I actually hadn't specifically done that before, but when we started this program in Boulder, it turns out there are so many ways we can be including young people, and we often think of only teens as being able to be included, but we've worked with preschool kids. Like, one of my favorite stories that always makes people chuckle is we wanted to hear from preschoolers about the transportation master plan for our city so that, like, why go to preschool or care about that? But what we wanted to understand is like, how do they get around, and what do they need to get around safely? And so we put GoPros on their heads, and the preschool classes went out with their teachers, and the teachers are Reggio Emilia trained teachers, which means that they take careful notes and observations of the children. And what we learned from those videos and the notes from the teachers is that the kids felt really unsafe trying to cross the street, even where there was a crosswalk, the cars were just going too fast and they weren't seeing the kids. And so that leads us to think about, well, what are some interventions we can do for areas where there are high levels of children to really slow down traffic and really make it safer to cross the road. And we learned that from, you know, two to four year olds. So it's really, it's eye opening, and it's so beautiful. Yeah,

    KC Davis 6:30

    I was going to ask, you know, along those lines, like, what were some of the things? Because I know in your talk, you talk about a park and including all these different ages in how this park was going to get redesigned. And I loved the comment you made about noticing that toddlers wanted to stop and look at the leaves in the ditch. And I'm just curious from those littlest voices, like, what were some things that surprised you? Because I think as adults, we think, Oh, they're going to really love the slide. They're going to really love this, like, the features that we think they're really going to love, and it's not like they don't love slides, but what were some of the things that were kind of aha moments for you from some of those littlest voices?

    Mara Mintzer 7:08

    Yeah, definitely the slowing down. Like I always say that toddlers are our Zen masters, if we will listen, they force you to slow down and just again, think about that journey. And what are you seeing on that journey, and what are you experiencing? You know, kids bodies. They kids breathe more quickly than adults do, and so they're actually taking in more of the air around us, and so air pollution is much more concentrated for them. So just thinking about like, if they're having tons of cars come by and there's no green barrier between the little kids and the road, they're inhaling all of that. And not only is it not good for them, but it's really unpleasant and much less joyful. But what if we create those green barriers between the sidewalk and the road, and then even have cycling there too, so you're even farther from the cars? Those sorts of things came from, you know, there's research about it, but also just the observations. They also taught us to kind of look for the really interesting things along the way. We were doing a walking field trip with a group of second grade English language learner students, and they noticed things that we adults never would have noticed there were little dinosaurs, like plastic dinosaurs hidden under a giant pine tree that we didn't notice, but they found right away because they were closer to the ground. And so when we designed a little walking route that was child friendly, it had all these joyful elements that we adults had completely missed, and it was just delightful.

    KC Davis 8:46

    I love that. I also love it because I think that the idea of remodeling a park or turning a green space into, you know, a park, it seems like it would be a very expensive endeavor, and I'm sure it is, but it also seems like our heads go right to, okay, we need play structures that you know are probably going to be very expensive, and we need, you know, very manicured spaces, and we think about having to kind of, like, equip the space. And it sounds like, you know, these kids are more interested in just an opportunity to be where they are

    Mara Mintzer 9:23

    absolutely and I am so lucky because I am working with an amazing team of parks planners at the City of Boulder right now, and we have a pretty unified vision of bringing well. And it's also with the National League of Cities, and it's called the nature everywhere initiative that the National League of Cities there children cities, connecting children to Nature Network is rolling out in different cities. But what we are doing is we are looking to include nature play and nature experiences and nature learning all over the city. And to get to your point, Casey. Right? It doesn't have to be that expensive. For instance, one area that we were looking at right now, there's something that's kind of falling apart. It was a first attempt at nature play well, what we figured out is, if we put just like a very loose fence around that area, and then ask the parks department, you know, don't mow the grass inside, right? They won't mind that, because it's less area to mow, let's let the grass go really tall and wild. We'll put in a few nature plate elements just to update them and make sure they are really safe. And then we're also going to put in things that allows kids who might be using a wheelchair to access the spaces as well, so that there are multiple ways for multiple kids to engage. This will likely not be very expensive. It's much cheaper than buying ready made, plastic and metal pieces, and it can hold children's attention for so much longer because it's free play. It's imaginative, and this is what we need more of. Yeah,

    KC Davis 10:56

    you know, when I had the first place that we lived, when we moved here in Houston, there was a park near us that was, you know, obviously everything here is, like wooded before you bulldoze it down. But instead of leveling all the trees, and like building this really manicured Park, they had just gone through and bulldozed a path through the trees. And that was literally the only thing in this park, and it was my kids favorite park. And it had me reflecting on, gosh, we do so much for the average park where we have to put in, we make it like a lawn, right? Like a Suburban Lawn, like grass that has to be watered and, you know, maybe some play equipment, and this, that and the other. And here was this spot of land, and I think, you know, they had even sort of named a nature reserves that nobody could bulldoze it down, but it literally had nothing else in it. And not only did my kids like it better, but it was also just more family friendly. First of all, we're in Houston, there was shade. You could go when it was windy, you could go when it was hot, you could even go if it was sprinkling a little bit. And they just never ran out of things to do. And they eventually added a few things here and there about, I think there was, like, a QR code that you could scan to hear about, like, what kinds of birds typically were there. That was one of the points for me that really got me thinking about looking at the spaces that I was visiting with my kids. And I think it's interesting we think about that section of the population that's like, well, I don't like sharing a space with kids, and I think a big part of that is just being a curmudgeon, right? But another part of it is when you have to force kids to be in a space that does not accommodate them, they are going to act and behave in ways that are not going to be, you know, like they're going to be more disruptive, they're going to be more energetic, they're going to be more frustrating and impatient. It's like, that's not just, oh, I don't like kids. That's there's not a way for a child to be in a restaurant where anyone's thinking about their needs. And so do you not like kids, or do you not like how we've designed these spaces to exclude children? That's

    Mara Mintzer 13:05

    exactly right. And in fact, an example of that is right. So some cities, over time, have used these really high pitched noise makers that only teenagers can hear. We can't hear them, and it tries to stop teenagers from loitering. And it's often in front of, like a store, it's some area that they feel like the kids are engaging in anti social behavior. But I like to turn that around and think, what aren't we offering to our young people as ways that are supportive of their development? So you know, a lot of the behaviors, I think, that we find annoying, as you said are just we're not creating those outlets, that space for them to do what they're supposed to do. And so what is a teenager supposed to do? They're supposed to be social. They're hanging out with their peers. They like to see and be seen just a little bit and be up a little bit higher and watch everything. If we build those spaces, they also want thrill seeking, right? Like, thrill seeking is a part of that age. That's why younger people are sort of more prone to fights or those other pieces. They do have this piece of them that needs an outlet. But like, what if we design spaces that allow that thrill seeking, that adrenaline rush, in a pro social way, and that teens have helped create, that they're then going to go to. Can you imagine what a decline there would be in, you know, graffiti, where we don't want it, and just behaviors that as a society, we've said we do not want, and it's because we're not creating those opportunities for them

    KC Davis 14:35

    well. And you know, you hear people complaining about, oh, these, you know, kids going into Sephora, and they're too young, and they're into tumblers, and it's, I think there's a big thing about this to talk about when we talk about the absence of third places for adults, but I find that as I've grown it's the absence of third places for teenagers that I think are hit hardest, because, like, when I was growing up, we had malls. Yeah. Even if you didn't have money to buy things, like you would go to the mall, and your friends would be the mall, and there'd be a safe place to walk around. There would be things to look at, there would be things to you know, a couple of things that you could do. And like, malls are dying, right? And think about it like you try to loiter in in front of a store in the way we used to loiter in the mall, and, like you said, they're turning on high pitch noises to get you to leave and then, and I still remember, even with parks, you know, when we would go to parks as teenagers, there was always kind of this side eye of like, this is for little children. You must be doing nefarious things here, and that's kind of where you get this, okay, we're all driving around aimlessly looking for, I guess, someone's house to go, whose parents aren't home. And the very few places, you know, where there was maybe a skate park or something, where that was a little more oriented to teenagers, even when I was a teenager, those were hard to find. And it does make you sort of reflect on, you know, when we find ourselves frustrated by the way teenagers or children behave. It's like some of that we just need to get over, because we've all been children, right? It's important for them to go through those phases. But how much of that are we creating by not treating them like full citizens that have the right to gather and have places to go and just exist. Because, you know, I think I would want my kids socializing in public, instead of driving in them into these private nooks and crannies that they're finding where nobody's watching, nobody's around,

    Mara Mintzer 16:38

    completely and and, you know, the other thing is, when we think about spaces having culturally relevant third spaces, so one of my colleagues here in Boulder, I just love his vision, but he has this vision for a youth center where it would be created by a variety of nonprofits. So it's not just one nonprofit, but it's a space where there's a place for performances, there's a place for art making, there's a place for group work. There's a place for individual like therapy or coaching. It's staffed by people from the community, for the community, and also it's celebrating these amazing cultures that we're lucky to have in our communities, instead of sort of only showing one version of what a culture and age is supposed to look like. Can you imagine if you're being seen like that and having these spaces where there are other adults that you can work with or be mentored by? I think that would just make such a difference to every teen. What were

    KC Davis 17:39

    some of the insights that the teenagers had that surprised you about like, what they how they experience spaces?

    Mara Mintzer 17:49

    Yeah, well, it shouldn't have surprised me, but it similar to what you were saying. We did this project on what would a teen friendly Park look like, and it came out of one of my colleagues when her son was about 10 or 11, he started getting yelled at by the mothers on the playground, being like, get off the equipment. You know, you're too old to be here. You're scaring our little kids. And he said, like, where am I supposed to go? What am I still want to play? And actually, I see this in our middle schools all of the time, and it's heartbreaking. And I actually remember experiencing this. So our kids go from being in elementary school, we get recessed once or twice a day, and there's stuff to play with, and you have free time, and suddenly in middle school, there's nothing to play on. And it turns out that developmentally, they still want to play. They really do and so, but it's this sadness of like everything kind of closes down for these middle school aged kids. And so it was a reminder to me of that need to play. Still, I didn't know that that was normal and part of development, and when I experienced it myself, I was kind of ashamed of like, Oh, I'm 11. I'm not supposed to play. Actually, you are. And so like, we need to bring that back out into the open. We need to give our kids more free time to be able to play and meet without adults hovering over them and choosing all their activities for them and just being unstructured. And that really goes across the ages. And Jonathan heights new book The anxious generation, which I'm sure many of your listeners, and maybe you have read it was, it was heartbreaking and it was exciting, because when I read it, I said every single thing he's talking about in this book is what growing up older my nonprofit does. We have been addressing this for 15 years, and now people are starting to understand why it matters. And before we would talk about it, and people didn't really understand it, but now they're really getting it, and so I think there's an opportunity right now to change things. Yeah, I

    KC Davis 19:46

    hadn't even really thought about this until now, but I mean, when I think back to middle school, when we had recess, it was like, post like, right after lunch, they did just send us out to the football field, like we weren't going to the. Playground anymore. We were going to the football field, where we were either sitting on the bleachers talking, maybe some boys were running around, and we might have had, like, Foursquare, like, maybe a few balls, but it's interesting, right? Because you're right, we didn't stop playing. We would go home and play. You know, you still invite your friends over and play mermaids in the pool, but you just there really aren't those spaces for those kinds of kids. I thought it was interesting. One of the things that you mentioned in your TED talk that you got from the kids is separating the walking paths and the biking paths. My husband always gripes about the people that like to bike in our neighborhood because it slows down traffic so much. And he asked me one time, like, why don't they bike on the sidewalk? And I was like, well, interesting fact that I just happen to know that bikes are more dangerous to pedestrians than cars are to bikes, which is why bikes legally are supposed to be riding on the road. But in a lot of our parks around here, we have these big, wide concrete kind of like trails, for lack of a better term, and you are allowed to bike on them. But as someone who now has kids who like to walk and sometimes run, you can't really take children on a path that has bikes on them, and so I thought it was so interesting to hear them talk about wanting to separate, you know, where people were riding and where people were walking. But even so, you know, okay, bikes are supposed to be on the road. What about children? My children know how to ride bikes now, and I don't want them to ride in the road. Where do I take them to ride bicycles and things like that. And I just think this is such an interesting concept, because as much, and you know, you what I love that you say at the end of your TED talk is that, you know, this is just the beginning, and when we learn to listen to children, it has a broader implication to listening to people of color, to listening to people who are indigenous, to the space, to listening to people who are disabled, that it's not just about children, it's about including those voices who previously haven't been included. And I love that phrase, you know, nothing about us, without us, and it just really got me thinking about how we don't consider children marginalized, and how the marginalization of children is so connected to even the marginalization of women and mothers still. But I'd love to hear from you also like, how have you seen that ripple effect, like when you center children, how has that rippled in the community, or even in the design to better listening to all kinds of voices.

    Mara Mintzer 22:21

    What we often see is that the same approaches, the same techniques we use for listening to kids, work really well for listening to groups that have been excluded in the past. So I'll just give you an example, and I learned this somewhat through trial and error. At one point earlier on in growing up boulders history, we tried to create a youth group, and we would have the kids come to us, and we were going to create all these things together. And I reached out to all these organizations, and I was so excited. And who showed up, but only the adult representatives, not one teenager showed up. And so it was a moment to think about, okay, well, what isn't working here? And the answer was we needed to go to them instead of them coming to us in our university towers where they maybe weren't familiar or comfortable. And so instead, we started going to after school programs, or we went to school classrooms that were set up in a way that our programs could work, that changed everything because it was on their territory, they already felt comfortable, and then we could ask good questions, and if we were good listeners, get really insightful information. That same thing works for hearing from adults. And so we've been working to become a recognized, UNICEF, child friendly city, which is a multi year process which ends in official recognition. And one of the pieces of that is called community conversations, and that really is having conversations with our community. Well, what's so exciting is we partnered with over 30 nonprofits, government programs for kids, all sorts of spaces where young people and their parents were and we said, look, this is our goal. We want to hear certain things, but what? And here are a few different ways that you might approach this. Choose what works for your community. So in one of our partner nonprofits that works primarily with Latinx families, they wanted to use storytelling. Right? Instead of filling out a survey, they wanted to do storytelling, and so it was facilitated by their own leader in Spanish using a storytelling method, and the data and information we got from that was so rich and so useful, and that was primarily adults we were hearing from, but we were doing it in a way that worked for them, and really honoring what the community was telling us. And if we take the time to do that, we can create such better spaces and policies, but it does take more time. And so again, it's a really different way of approaching engaging with children or adults. And so, you know, it's a whole change, but I think it's worth the time and energy. And

    KC Davis 24:56

    you didn't just like, ask people questions, like. So there were some really cool things that you did about the park that you talked about in your TED Talk, where it wasn't just like asking kids questions like you. I mean, these kids were holding clipboards like these kids were walking through parks and taking pictures of the things that interested them and the things that they thought were problems, and even like really young kids, you know, we're making model, you know, model parks out of, you know, Ed cartons and candy and things like that. And talking about these things, can you talk a little bit about how much we are perhaps underestimating children's ability to understand issues and come up with creative solutions.

    Mara Mintzer 25:43

    I mean, the kids never cease to amaze me with their insights. I was just at a meeting that we ran two nights ago where a group of teenagers, you know, maybe 13 to 18 were they were running the whole meeting. They were so amazing. And by the end of the meeting, they had typed up an entire plan for and divided up. Okay, everyone's reaching out to three organizations. Here's your name and here's what you're committing to. Because, again, they're experts on their own lives. They knew which organizations they could reach out to to get a variety of demographics to come to a meeting that we're having no The other thing we do with young people is, when they were at that civic area Park in my TEDx talk, they were using their five senses, right? And so we weren't just asking them visually what to do, but like, what do you want to experience with your body, with your sense of smell, your taste? And so all of that then feeds into how you design a space like, for instance, we've heard from kids over time they've wanted sort of edible gardens, and I mean, and forests. And I'm really excited. I think this is more coincidental, but our open space department is looking to design some forests now that are have all sorts of edible plants in them. And so kids really are thinking outside the box when they're creating their spaces.

    KC Davis 27:08

    Would you say that there were things that you went into that project, or any projects you've done, like, what are some of the things that you went in thinking, like, Oh, this is going to be perfect for kids, that when you actually brought kids into the conversation, you realize, like, Oh, this is actually not something that, like is the best thing to do here. Because I feel like we often have in and I mean, even as a parent, you're like, Oh, they're gonna love this. And then they're like, No, we really, like, she said, like we wanted to stare at leaves in the gutter. Like, were there any of those kind of surprises about like things that you assumed children would be most drawn to in public spaces or in parks and playgrounds that you were kind of surprised to hear? They weren't.

    Mara Mintzer 27:52

    You know, it's been so long now that I don't, I can't think of anything because, and there might have been at one point, but the themes, actually, that kids are asking for now are pretty similar most times. And actually, when I've compared it across cultures and looked at other countries, it actually is somewhat similar, although the way that they might roll it out for a specific space changes. So they constantly want interaction with water, play with water. They want nature and beauty and flowers and color around them.

    KC Davis 28:24

    It's like the opposite of most parks. Most parks are a big, open green field, maybe a playground,

    Mara Mintzer 28:31

    yeah. And, you know, I think of sort of the also the junkyard type spaces, like in in Wales, where they have the land, or in New York City, where they've got on governance island that kind of wild and free and Dangerous play with like hammers and fire and all this. And really, that is what kids often prefers, this messy play, and not the neat, manicured play that we create and parks, there's like one little surprising thing, but it wasn't. It wasn't so surprising. We were working with second grade students on a bus route, like looking at a bus route and how to make it more child friendly. And so the two things that they came up with were, one, they were really kind of bored and disengaged when they were waiting for the bus and on the bus. So they designed playful sort of signs for all the busses inside the bus that it was count the number of bunnies, hidden bunnies. And so the kids had actually drawn the artwork, and then for other kids to have something to play with and do while they were on the bus, to make taking public transit more fun. So I thought that was so clever. And the other piece was they get really tired when they were waiting for the bus to come, so they installed a bench there. And of course, I've been noticing around town how frequently adults and kids will use benches if you put them there. So I hadn't thought of that, and it really made a lot of sense when the kids raised those ideas.

    KC Davis 29:56

    I really love the note about like being bored at the bus stop, because I. Like a lot of adults would hear that quote, unquote complaint and be like, Okay, we'll get over it. Parts of life are boring, like, you don't need to be entertained all the time. Yada yada ya, right. However, when I think about adult design, I think about and I notice how much boredom is taken as a real issue that deserves to be addressed. Like when I'm sitting in a waiting room waiting for my oil to be changed, there is always a TV. There are always magazines on the table when I am waiting at the doctor's office, again, there are always magazines on the table. Like these are things that we dismiss in children that I don't think we realize we design around as legitimate needs for adults. I've never been I really like wait in a place where someone hasn't given one at least one thought to what can I do to entertain myself? And now we all have phones, but even so, like there aren't a lot of waiting places for children that, unless it's specifically a pediatrician that are thinking, how can we help children wait here

    Mara Mintzer 31:09

    Absolutely and you know, sometimes we think that these things have to be a certain way, but they're all human designed. These are not things that have always existed. So there's no reason to say that having something interesting for adults to look at is more important than having kids have something to look at or to do. And again, that goes back to that adults who don't want kids around, if we are designing spaces that are keeping kids in mind, it really changes it. And so like when I lived in Australia, there were all these cafes that had sections set up for kids. You know, there were chalkboards they could write on. They had toys there, and so then you could spend many hours eating and drinking at this cafe with your kid also having great opportunities for socialization. It's not that hard to do, but it's a different mind. You Yeah.

    KC Davis 32:04

    Like, one of my biggest if I could, like, wave a magic wand as a parent and get is that, like, it's not that there aren't restaurants that are accommodating children. It's that the food is never good at those restaurants. Like, it's fine. But, like, I'm not thinking, like, you know what, I would love to go, man, it would just be so great to go and have a sit down meal at Wendy's, right? Like this, just, you know, there's, we have one restaurant in my neighborhood that has an out gated outdoor play area with some playground equipment. And they even do like, a bouncy house on the weekends. And we go there all the time, because when my kids can run around and expend some energy, they don't mind waiting. It's easier for them to sit down and eat. And they'll even do the thing where they'll eat a little pop up, go play. Eat a little pop up, go play. And there's also some TVs on the sports for parents. And so you have a more relaxing experience, and you never really have despite the fact that kids are running around even more chaotically because of the play place. You almost never see child parent conflict. You never see anyone being disrupted at their other tables, even though the kids are running around because it is designed for them and the food sucks. It sucks so bad. And, you know, if I want that experience of being able to sit down and eat a meal and not have to worry about, you know, my kids ability to sit for, you know, 3040, minutes. You know, those are the kind of places we want to go. I have always yearned because I spent some time in Guatemala City when I was in my early 20s. And there was this one restaurant that my friends who had kids would always take me, and it had, like, kind of an old school McDonald's esque, like indoor playground. But the restaurant was like, a la Madeleine, like, that's the closest I can think to it. And we would it like it was an adult restaurant with a child's play place, and this is where all of these mothers would go to actually sit down and have a conversation, actually sit down and do a book club. And again, there was very little conflict between patrons and children. And I just ever since, and I've always noticed that like restaurants that accommodate or cater to children are like you said they're like, children specific, they're not also trying to make a good adult experience, and so that we have that separation of like, oh, we have adult restaurants and children's restaurants, versus just like a restaurant where anyone could go, where everyone might be accommodated. And I just wish that there were more places like that, I completely agree,

    Mara Mintzer 34:41

    and there's absolutely no need for that dichotomy. Actually, one of the things I feel really strongly about also is actually in terms of food. So when we think about again the way our American society works, we think of adults food versus kids' food, when, in fact, if you look at cultures all over the world. There's no need for that. Like you don't have kids in other parts of the world saying, I'm not going to eat this. I'm only going to eat chicken nuggets. No, if you eat antelope for dinner and your parents eat that, that's what you eat too. And so you know, what? If there were restaurants that had just kid sized portions of the same adult food, and then things that kids could do again, that could give them a break, or have other ways of being at dinner, we could really transform the way our society works. And the other benefit is it would reduce stress and anxiety for parents. Because again, you know this is sort of the hot topic now, and I know our Surgeon General just talked about this crisis in parenting and in the US, how stressful parenting is, and it is absolutely true. There was a great book I read that looked at parenting in Denmark and how much more relaxing it is, and the reasons for that are the following. One, they have universal child care and after school programs so that it doesn't matter what your income is there, that is just a given that you will have that time. There is better parental leave. There's also a better work life balance, right? Like you're not working as many hours. And then there's the expectation that adults and kids have other activities they engage in. And so when each when the parents and the children are getting to be seen as whole people, and there are supports in place, and the kids are also expected to help out at home, it's just what you do, you set the table, and no one asks questions about it, it reduces stress so much for parents, and it's more enjoyable. And so I think there is a possibility for us to do this, but we have to really change the systems around us and also our own expectations and beliefs and what we think kids can do like they can do so much more than we allow them to do, and that's another change I'd love to see in our country. Yeah,

    KC Davis 36:55

    it reminds me, you know, full circle to like watching my tiny little preschooler do like, a full independent bathtub routine, and it was like this whole time, it's not that she wasn't capable of doing it, it's that she had never been in a space that had empowered her to do it on her own. And how many parents are overloaded with how much we have to do for our kids, especially out in public, when, like, half the problem is that there just aren't spaces that are thinking about how a child could exist in those space and she has it, there's a psychology aspect to it, right? Like, when it is accessible to my kids, they feel like they feel more of a responsibility to do it, as opposed to, well, you know, I can't pick me up. Like there's kind of this challenge to them that they sense in the environment of, oh, I'm expected to do this. And I think that matters. I also think that some of the things that I've heard my kids voice, it's not the big things, right? Like, some of the things you've talked about are kind of big, like, big parks and bus stops and things like that. But like, I'll never forget my daughter like commenting to me one time, like, I wish more restaurants got the crayons that didn't roll away, because there's a couple of restaurants around us that have crayons that are, like, hexagonal, if that makes sense, like they have flat sides, so they're their triangle, so that when they're coloring on the table, they don't roll off the table. And that's always stuck with me about like, what a small thing that if we were listening to children, we would hear, you know, I am more engaged in a restaurant when I have something to color, but more than that, because that's what parent with, what adults think, right? Oh, well, give them something to color, but it's specific to when my crayons don't run away.

    Mara Mintzer 38:38

    Yeah, you know, Allison gopnik is a professor who does work around child development, and one of the research studies she's done has to do with children actually being better problem solvers than adults, even. And these are, I think, young children, maybe like four or five, and what happens is, the reason they can be better problem solvers is that as we get older, we have frameworks that help us understand the world, because there is so much information out there, and it makes sense that we have to have some way of wrestling all this information into submission and to be usable. But kids don't yet have those restrictions, and so they can look at a problem and actually solve it more quickly or more creatively, because they just are literally thinking without such rigid framework. The crayon example is a great idea. Maybe there are other things we haven't even thought of. If we brought kids in for our randd team to help come up with answers, yeah.

    KC Davis 39:37

    And then the other short one that I'll share with you before we end our time is, you know, one of my daughters is four, and what's really difficult for her we go on airplanes is she kicks the seat in front of her, and we spend the whole flight really kind of managing that. Now, part of that is, you know, she's neuro divergent, and she's, you know, kind of squiggly wiggly, but a big part of it is that she doesn't fit. Sit in the seat, and so she's constantly pushing on the seat in front of her to push her body back up in to the seat, because where her knees hit the seat, she can't really sit comfortably. So she's always kind of like slowly sliding down. And that's like, one of the biggest complaints that people have on airplanes, ah, Kid kick in the back of my seat, and it's like, okay, well, some of that is okay, yeah, kids are restless. They want to swing their feet and they're not as aware. That's fine, but some of that is, and I can say this as a short person who also, like, my knees genuinely hurt when I sit on long flights, like, there's nowhere to prop my feet up, and that has to do with, like my body being comfortable and aligned. And how many of these kids, you know, how simple would it be to think about, where are kids legs and feet hitting in an airplane seat, and is there a simple way for them to put have a foot rest, to put their feet on something, to have a booster seat or something kind of built in. And again, you would think, Oh, look, this is so much. But like, I don't know, they just unveiled that, like, brand new Southwest Airlines, you like, whatever. And like, part of it is like, there's TVs in the back that we thought about people's entertainment. And the other part is, like, that little part of the headrest that kind of folds forward to support your head if you want to sleep. That's not necessary. That's luxury. Like, that's not like, we could have just told adults, like, get over it. It's a flight. It's not supposed to be comfortable. But we didn't. We thought about, how do we make people be able to watch TV on flights easier? How do we support their heads so they're more comfortable? Why can't we think, why is where a child's knees and feet hit on the seat, not as valid as you wanting to rest your head again, like it's just kind of something to think about. You're very

    Mara Mintzer 41:51

    welcome. No, I was gonna say the thing is, right, the kids aren't the ones with the wallets and voters, and I think that is why they so often get ignored, is that they're not seen as constituents. But in fact, I think we should be. And I love your example, it wouldn't be that hard of a fix, but if we have to start thinking about it first,

    KC Davis 42:10

    yeah, well, thank you so much. And where can people go to learn more about your organization and the cool things that you've done there?

    Mara Mintzer 42:18

    Absolutely so they can go to our website, which is growing up, Boulder, B, O, U, L, D, E, r.org, and if they want to support us, there's opportunities for donation. There are also ways to support with skills that they have, and all the resources that we've discussed are on there, and we've written a book, and there's my TED Talk. So there are a variety of ways, if you want to learn more and take some of this into your own communities. Our goal is for others to be doing this as well and then teach us while we go along. Awesome.

    KC Davis 42:51

    Thank you so much. Thanks. you.

Christy Haussler
Going Back To School as an (ADHD) Adult

Returning to school as a neurodivergent adult brings unique challenges, and we are discussing all aspects of this topic in today’s episode. I’m joined by “The Neuro-Spicy Student,” Amber, to share her experience and perspective on this topic. Join us!

Show Highlights:

  • Amber’s “alphabet soup” of diagnoses, misdiagnoses, and disabilities

  • Amber’s childhood experience in school

  • Two sides of the coin for most neurodivergent students

  • Amber’s story of multiple attempts at college and (finally) earning multiple degrees

  • Internal barriers in returning to school as an adult

  • A common experience for adults with ADHD: Learning and learning and learning—without formal degrees to show for it

  • Differences in going to school as an older student with accommodations

  • Finding empowerment in advocating for yourself–and healing your younger self

  • Specific accommodations you can ask for in college

  • Amber’s parting words for listeners considering a return to school

Resources and Links:

Connect with Amber: LinkedIn

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

  • KC Davis 0:00

    Hello you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle. Care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and today we're going to be talking with the neuro spicy student. I have Amber here with me in the studio, and we're going to talk about going back to school as a neurodivergent adult. Amber. Thank you so much for being here.

    Amber Anthony 0:21

    Thank you for allowing me to be here.

    KC Davis 0:24

    So tell me what your alphabet soup is of diagnoses.

    Amber Anthony 0:29

    That's a long list. We do have ADHD that one is formally diagnosed, and then we have the self diagnosis for autism, but I have been misdiagnosed with borderline personality disorder, which I feel like that is something that a lot of other Audi HD ers have in common, and I've also been diagnosed with bipolar type two. Believe that one is also a misdiagnosis. I do agree with the OCD diagnosis, because that's pretty on par for some of my struggles, but I also do have a couple of physical disabilities, hot Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, ethos Danlos Syndrome, the hypermobility. I think that is something that is very much shared amongst neurodivergent folks, that just something that we all sort of have in common, that those are some struggles we all go through, and they very much impact being able to go to school, stay in school, and find success in school throughout all like from the youngest years to back to college. So

    KC Davis 1:36

    what was your experience in school like as a child? Rough,

    Amber Anthony 1:40

    very, very rough. There was a lot of hyper variability as a little kid. I mean, I spoke in complete sentences by the time that I was about 1618, months talking about that I was going to be rich and famous one day. That was my big goal as an 18 month old. But I definitely found a lot of struggle with math. In particular, I am dysgraphic as well as dyscalculia. So any kind of math, it's just going to create so much anxiety, so much stress. And there has been exactly one teacher out there, Mr. Jim Roman, shout out to my grandpa. He's not my actual grandpa, but he is, after this many years, he is the only person that sat down with me and got me to understand algebra two, which no other person has ever been able to have him since, but that man, he's a real teacher, because he actually cares. So I had to shout him

    KC Davis 2:40

    out. I feel like it's super common for people, whether they had a diagnosis or they weren't diagnosed till later, like to have really adverse experiences in school because of neurodivergence, whether it's a learning disability or ADHD or autism. Like it's just so common for us to have these early experiences, and it's kind of two sides of the same coin. But like, there's kind of, like the group of people that, because of some executive functioning stuff, some attention stuff, like we, at an early age, just kind of conclude that we must be stupid, and then like, the other side of the coin are those of us who maybe trend towards, like, what was considered gifted, and so all of our issues were kind of like fell through the cracks until it was too late, right? And it was like, Oh, they're smart. Who cares if they can't ever do their homework or ever stay organized, or ever whatever. And we get to a certain level of school where we just absolutely crash out, because it becomes obvious that these skills that we weren't building along the way are not there.

    Amber Anthony 3:40

    That was college for me. Which of those categories did

    KC Davis 3:44

    you fall into?

    Amber Anthony 3:45

    That was absolutely college. I mean, I very much struggled in elementary school, but it was internal struggle. It was very much she's a delight to have in class, a little chatty, but she's so smart, she's so precocious. She has this great vocabulary words that you know, kids her age just don't know and are reading, you know level that's up in high school and college level when I'm still in elementary and I mean, I had decent, well, no, I didn't get good grades, really, until about middle school, because that's when it counted. I was supposed to go to a very prestigious, all girls Catholic high school that gets you ready for college. And I was also supposed to be a legacy student that did not work out. One might say that those nuns at the school did not like my mother after the six years that they are no eight years they had already had her at that point. So they're like, We can't do this anymore, guys, I cannot do this again. And they only had three years because my sister and I would have actually been at the same time. Oh

    KC Davis 4:47

    my gosh. But so did you finish undergrad?

    Amber Anthony 4:50

    I have actually finished four associates at this point, but that is my second attempt of college, my first attempt of college. Was actually three weeks after I graduated high school, I went to summer school and started online classes before never completing any other sort of summer before college. And that did not work out. Schedules did not work out. I had just turned 18. I had no time management skills. And I am a youngest child, yeah,

    KC Davis 5:23

    yeah, my crash out was in high school, and I actually funny. You should mention, I actually went to a private all girls Catholic prep school, and I was there the first year, and and then I got expelled my second year. And you know, my grades went from like A's and B's to like when I in the eighth grade, to like D's and F's, and I didn't change. I didn't do anything different. I just, all of a sudden the homework mattered, and they weren't going over everything in class. There was like, stuff that you were supposed to be doing on your own, and it became obvious I didn't have those skills. And I mean, I was like, Well, I guess I can't do school anymore, right? And I feel like that is so common with people who are neurodivergent, like, just realize we have such a bad experience with school that we start hating and I hated school. It's weird, like, I loved aspects of school when it came to learning and socializing and things like that, but I hated the grading part. Yes, I learned. I

    Amber Anthony 6:30

    always said that I love learning. Don't grade me. I hate

    KC Davis 6:34

    grading unless it's gonna be like you teach me something and immediately ask me to talk about it, because then I'll get good grades. But don't ask me to go home and structure shit by myself. By myself. So how long was it before you decided to go back to school?

    Amber Anthony 6:48

    It was a little bit back and forth a few different times. So from age 18 until 20, I went pretty consistently, but that's also when some of my physical issues really started amping up. I got mono for like eight months when I was 18 years old, and that just wrecked my health. I got my tonsils removed. I missed a bunch of class because the professors were asking me to leave because I looked like I was dying in class and like I don't want a lawsuit on my hands. If you die in my class, get out. So I missed a bunch of stuff. I had to drop a bunch of courses, and it did not work out the first time around, I started again at 24 I tried for a semester, and I just, I took random classes. I take gerontology, for some reason, that is the study of aging, the psychology of aging. Oh, interesting. And like geriatrics, okay, yes, yes. So of the elderly people do I have any interest in elderly care? No, no, I don't

    KC Davis 8:00

    that sounds like me. People are always like, Oh my God, how many degrees do you have? And I'm like, Oh no, I only have two. But I changed my major 1000 times and took a bunch of coursework that didn't even relate to my major, and like, years worth of coursework to not end in a degree.

    Amber Anthony 8:17

    Ask me my first major. What was your first major? Mortuary science.

    KC Davis 8:22

    Oh, mine was philosophy that lasted a semester. What was your second major?

    Amber Anthony 8:26

    I went to English, which actually is now my one of my current majors, one of I'm a double

    KC Davis 8:33

    I went to meteorology as someone who was also dyscalculic. For some reason I thought meteorology would work because I could chase tornadoes, but then there was so much math that I switched to theater. Oh,

    Amber Anthony 8:44

    I did, taken a few theater classes. I was definitely a theater kid, especially because, you know, I'm rather I'm rather theatrical.

    KC Davis 8:55

    So when you made the decision to go back, or like all the times you've made the decision, what kind of internal barriers did you have to get over or like did you have to process or, or or deal with? Because I feel like when we have these bad experiences in school, and then we get older and we perceive ourselves as being like outside the age group that like should be in school, there's a lot of internal like barriers and almost like stigma and trauma to like work through. So like, what did that look like for you?

    Amber Anthony 9:27

    I had to do it for me, instead of who I was trying to please, which was very much, I mean, very familial. My oldest sister is a polyglot times six, so there's that she has either one or two masters at this point, she has traveled the world so that there's living up to that my middle sister is a pastry chef. She went to the Culinary Institute of America, and she is a very accomplished mother and pastry chef. And. And very successful in that, as well as my other sister, very accomplished mother. She is fantastic. So going back for myself and not having to live up to familial standards, and deciding that I just want to do this for me as well as the people I want to help, because that's really what brought me back. I know that to be a librarian and to be a social worker, I have to have those degrees to get into those buildings and to fill those gaps, because that's what I want to do. That's who I want to be.

    KC Davis 10:36

    I feel like that is such a powerful point to speak to, because there is this feeling, you know, and I the audience knows that I had a pretty bad drug addiction when I was in my teens, and so when I came out of rehab, you know, I was a senior in high school, and I went to, like, a special high school with a contained class, and you know, then I went to community college for my first year, and there was kind of that feeling of like I've been left behind, like I'm not going and doing what everyone else is doing. And I remember like waiting tables to put myself through grad school. And I waited tables in kind of like a rich part of town, and there was, like more than one occasion where I would end up waiting on the mothers of, like former classmates that I'd gone to prep school with and I remember feeling so ashamed, even though, like, I know intellectually, there's nothing shameful about waiting tables. And I was literally waiting tables to put myself through a really rigorous graduate degree. And yet, the pressure and the feeling of, I really want to tell them, I'm getting a degree too. I'm getting a degree too, because, and I think that can get muddied, like, there probably are some of us out there that, like, we feel like we should go back to school to finish that degree, but it's mostly being pushed by just like the societal standard, like, I'll be more worthy, I'll be more respected. And I think your point to having to realize that, like, that's not motivation that's going to carry long term. Like, there really has to be a personal motivation. Of it doesn't matter what anybody thinks. It doesn't matter how old I am. It doesn't matter like, all those kinds of things. Like, I have to do it because at the end of this road is something that I want for me in my life. Yes, so 100%

    Amber Anthony 12:26

    yes. Just have seen the amount of people out there that are not spoken for and that are suffering because they have no one to speak for them, whether it is because of being a marginalized human or just not being able to advocate for themselves. And I just, I can't let it keep going on. I can't be participating in a system that does not work for all humans. Yeah,

    KC Davis 12:56

    did you struggle at all with like? Because I know for a time I was thinking about, like, doing more schooling, and one of the things that I struggled with was, like, doing the math of how old I was gonna be by the time I graduated. Yeah, yeah. Did you struggle with that at all? Oh, no. 100%

    Amber Anthony 13:14

    I did that math. And like, how did you get through that? So by the end of this, I will be between 36 and 37 at the end of all of this, granted, I would have been, I think, 35 if I had stopped adding so many things to the plate.

    KC Davis 13:30

    That's the ADHD tax, though, but that's part of it. Is like you feel like, No, I've lived 1000 lives. I really am very knowledgeable, I really am very competent, but I've learned so many things, but I have no degrees to my name. For 75% of it,

    Amber Anthony 13:44

    that is the worst part of my schooling, everything that I have learned up until this point that I've gotten all my degrees, I have early childhood education associates, I have social science associates, I have a library science associates, I have an English Associates, and I'm working on a social work transfer associate. And I also have five different certificates in early childhood education, being a specialist in disabled students and infants and toddlers. Yeah, of course. Because why wouldn't I?

    KC Davis 14:10

    I feel like the most powerful thing I heard someone say was they were talking to somebody who said, Well, you know, well, you know, if I go back to school now, I'll be 40 when I finish. And they said, You know what the time will pass.

    Amber Anthony 14:23

    Anyways, it will and if you do it until you retire, which they keep trying to hike that age up, you could do it for 20 years. You start at 40, you have 20 years of doing a profession that fulfills you, that you love and that God willing, helps people.

    KC Davis 14:43

    And like, this idea of like, oh, but in four years, I'll be 42 and it's like, yeah, no, but like, I'll be 42 in four years no matter what, even if I don't go back to school, right? Like, the time will pass anyways, no matter exactly. And so like, yes, it's gonna take a long time. But again, that long time is going to happen no matter what. It's just like, we may or may not have a degree at the end of it,

    Amber Anthony 15:05

    exactly. So

    KC Davis 15:06

    tell me then, like, let's shift to like, what has been different this time about going back to school? You mentioned before we hopped on like that you've been dealing with accommodations, and I feel like that's a big one for people who are late diagnosed. Like, part of our adverse experiences in school is that we had not been diagnosed or recognized and we didn't have accommodations at those times. And so what has it been like to go back to school and this time advocate for accommodations?

    Amber Anthony 15:32

    I would say that being older, I just feel like I have more of a voice. For some reason, when you get right out of high school, everyone is telling you what to do, where to go, how to be. And I'm also a military kid. Twice over, I was raised by two sailors, so I say I have a filthy fucking mouth because and my dad's from Jersey, so that should explain a myriad of it.

    KC Davis 15:58

    Well, yeah, out of high school, you still feel a little bit like a child. And so professors are these, like, far away experts. They're the real adults. And I would imagine, like, going back to school in your, like, late 20s or your 30s, you kind of see a professor as a peer. It's like, I'm older than another adult, yeah? Like, I'm paying you for a service, yeah, 100

    Amber Anthony 16:21

    No, I have very much been like, Ah, no. Like, I want us to be respectful, but you are going to, like, hear what I have to say, and I'm gonna talk a lot, and you will keep listening, or I'll go to the dean, because I have, and he heard me talk a lot too. And

    KC Davis 16:38

    so what has that process been like? Have you hit bumps in the road? Have you found successes because of accommodations that you you know didn't get in other situations or other tries? I

    Amber Anthony 16:50

    am still currently in a fight with the Los Rios Sacramento college, community colleges, specifically Folsom Lake, they say a lot of nice words, and they make things look really, really nice. Put a beautiful little bow on it and tell you really nice things. But when it comes down to actually enacting those accommodations and getting professors who are tenured and have been there a very long time and might have a very specific world view. They don't always want to be on your side. They don't want to, I have said multiple times to DSPs officers, the director of DSPs and also the dean of literature, that the rounded curve helps all people. So why are we making specific accommodations for, you know, just one student here, one student there. Why can't we make an accessible class overall? Here's how we can do that. No, we just need to go straight to accessibility for just the student, just specific students make their accommodations. Because if we make accommodations for everyone. It makes it too easy. If it's accessible to everyone, easier to learn, that sounds like a good thing, doesn't it for everyone to learn a little easier and not have to struggle.

    KC Davis 18:16

    Do you think that process? Because although it sounds like a headache, it sounds like it could be very frustrating, and even it seems like it could feel very defeating. But has there been an aspect of it that has been empowering to you, to have this almost it's not practice. I mean, it's real life, but I mean to like really go in and advocate hard for yourself, even if it doesn't always end fairly

    Amber Anthony 18:42

    I have always said I would rather it be me than some kids straight out of high school who does not know the things to say as well as have the background, sort of be able to back them up and say, No, I actually do know what I'm talking about here, and this is what's right and you aren't following Through with everything that you told me you would follow through with and keeping other people accountable for what they're saying, that they're going to do and how they're going to help. And I do feel powerful from that. Do

    KC Davis 19:11

    you feel like, I mean, I'm also curious if any of that has been healing, like to your own inner child, like, I think we all remember being whether we were young children or, you know, I had moments in grad school that I look back and I think, like, God, I wish. I wish somebody would have advocated for me, because I didn't even know to advocate for myself. And I could just see that being like a very corrective emotional experience. It

    Amber Anthony 19:34

    has been really nice to be able to, even when it doesn't work out, just know that I have said what I need to say, and they know that I'm not backing down, because I keep going to the next step, and I know how to bring it to the next step. And another shout out to Dr Douglas, see if you miss she works with it, creators on Tik Tok. Also, she has been a fantastic. Person that I have communicated with on several different times, that she has helped me sort of navigate some of what I have not known how to get through the administration and but of the red tape where some of my rights I still did not know how to advocate for, but I did know who to look for to find out what I needed to do, instead of just being like, well, I guess I'll just try again later, or I guess I'm the wrong one. But no, I am allowed to

    KC Davis 20:27

    have this. And you know, even though I haven't had that experience in school, and I don't like have a boss like, but I do, like, run a business, and I do have business partnerships and contracts and things like that. And I find that even in that world, like I have done some things recently that have been like, about accessibility for me, and it's funny how you'll do it and then you'll be like, Why haven't I done this before? Why haven't I asked for this before? And there was this weird subconscious, like, you didn't, it's not, not that you didn't need it, but almost like, well, it's supposed to be hard. You're not, like, it's not supposed to be too easy. Like, the one I did recently is like, when I do brand deals, and I don't do a ton of them, but what typically happens is, like, whatever, like, nice person working in the marketing department is usually not like, the top of the food chain, right? And so they're sending an email of, like, hey, we would love to have you do some stuff for us. You're like, Okay, what? And they're like, Well, we have this product, and we would love for you to do one Tiktok reel, and also a story, at least three pains in the story, 15 seconds each. And we, you know, here are the three talking points, and here's the call to action. You have to say it verbally, but make sure you don't say these words here. Can you have this to us by next Tuesday, and then we can post on Thursday, but make sure you send it in, and it's like, so many details, and those details will often come in spread over multiple emails. So like, there's the initial email of, like, here's what we're looking for. You'll be like, Yeah, let's do it. And then you'll start to get a bunch of other details filtered in. And then sometimes you'll also get like, Okay. And then here's the brief, and but the brief will be written generally for, like, all influencer stuff, and so you have to go in and figure out which ones are yours. And, like, it's so funny, because you guys can't see Amber, but she's, like, visibly hyperventilating thinking about it. It really is that stressful. I

    Amber Anthony 22:13

    can see, like, just how many directions you would have to be pulled in to try and I'm just like, this is working in the infant room at my school, yes, and

    KC Davis 22:21

    it almost reminded me also of like having a syllabus, but worse, right? And so what I did recently was I was like, You know what like? Because there's things that, like you have to say to get it right, but it's like, wasn't all written in the same place. So I went in and made myself a Google form that basically said, like, check which, like, which of these contents. Are you wanting? Are you wanting? Tik, Tok, this, whatever the next one was like, what are the talking points? Copy and paste them. When is the due date? The due date must be at least 14 days after I received this form for a proof like, when do you want the draft? Okay, after you get the draft, when do you want it posted? That date must be four business days from approval, including re like, I had to spell it out right, and then it had to be like, you know, now, put the call to action verbatim in this line. And I think what feels weird is that you're basically asking people to do more work. And you think, well, there it's my job to do all of that work, but, like, I literally have a disability, like, I need information in a specific, you know, format in order for me to do the job you have hired me for. And it's weird, because you're like, This is so simple, like, this is so much easier. Now this is so much more. This is literally accessible now, and you're like, why didn't I ask for this before?

    Amber Anthony 23:46

    Because you don't want to be a burden. Because society teaches us we are all just burdens when we need something, especially if we are female, identifying, it's just ingrained into us.

    KC Davis 23:59

    So what are some of the specific accommodations that you have? Because one of the things that I know is that a lot of people, who they totally get the idea of accommodations, but they don't know what to ask for. And it's not like the school gives you a list of options.

    Amber Anthony 24:12

    Oh no, they will not give you a specific list, because they have to be specific to your disability. But you also have to prove why you deserve them, like how you will actually be using them, and why it won't give you an unfair disadvantage over everyone else, which is something that I have very much come into contact with. Of them not wanting to allow for my accommodations, one of which being, I am not allowed to use the accommodation of Grammarly go because there is an AI aspect to it. And unfortunately, there are a fair amount of colleges out there that still use Turnitin, which is a faulty also AI to. Tracking system to see if you are using AI to write your papers. I understand why they are using it, but I think there just needs to be a little bit more critical thinking on the people grading stuff. Part. You can tell AI writing like very different. It's very dry, it's all the same. It all comes out very much sounding the same, and it has no voice to it. So that's something I'm not allowed to use. The reason I was using it, I have a very difficult time, especially in writing, to be able to figure out what kind of tone I'm using. And Grammarly go allows you to figure out is this coming off impassioned or combative, because more often than not, when I am fired up and really excited about something, people are like, Girl, drink water. Calm down. Why are you mad? I'm like, I'm not I'm just excited. I'm very excited. So there's always been confusion there, and I tried to use that as a way to mitigate that. And unfortunately, that was not an accommodation that I was allowed to use. There are professors that, thankfully, I do talk to them, they allow me to use it. They understand why I'm using it, and I also keep a lot of notes to show them exactly how I am writing my papers, to show that I am not cheating. And unfortunately, that's another thing that I have to burden on myself to show that I'm using accommodations properly and I don't have an unfair advantage over everybody else. So

    KC Davis 26:31

    what are some of the accommodations that you do have that work? Well, I'd like to give people ideas about what they can ask for. Oh yes,

    Amber Anthony 26:37

    I would say double time would be great. Double time for tests and quizzes. That's great also when professors let you do it, because sometimes they'll say you don't need that. You do fine without it, but sitting preferential seating, so either sitting close in front, or if you prefer to be in the back of the class, so that you're able to see the full board, or being able to take frequent breaks, standing up in the classroom, fully, leaving the classroom for a few minutes being if you have the in person classes, not having to have your camera on for a zoom. Course, because being perceived is very difficult on some days, I found that a very, very helpful one. This is very much up to professors, but I have up to the discretion of the professor an allowance to have late work within a certain time frame, just because deadlines can get very difficult, especially once you add in the physical disabilities with I also do have chronic migraines. I forgot to mention that one, those are fun, so those throw things off

    KC Davis 27:40

    a lot. That's probably like the number one thing I wish that I would have had. And for me, it wasn't even about like I was procrastinating or I got sick, like it was truly that, like I looked at the syllabus 1000 times, and I literally saw a 15 when it was a five, like it's due on the fifth, and my brain saw a 15, and every time I looked at it, I just couldn't see something different, like the amount of like hits that I took to grades when I was, like, fully working hard on something and managing my time and doing all like and I just screwed up the dates and and I would have some professors that were chill about it because they knew me, and they were like, I don't think she's like bullshitting, but I had others that just would not budge. And I also think, like when I was younger, I really wish I would have had an accommodation about writing down what the homework was. I don't know why that was so difficult. What got lost in translation. Every day I would look at the board, and they'd be like, homework is this? And I'd be like, cool, I'll remember that. And then I didn't, and I'm like, 12, so like, every day I'm not doing my homework, and I just, man, I wish that the teacher would have just written it in my planner, and then when I went home, my mom would have opened up my planner with me and shown it to me. I think that that would have solved all of my problems.

    Amber Anthony 29:00

    They did that for me, really, gosh, you're so that was what they did that my school, once I got to it was actually a public school instead of a private school. In elementary I did not have to ask for accommodations. They just saw who I was, and they accommodated me. They were like, Oh, she seems to struggle with focus, so let's keep her towards the front of the class. This person seems to be her friend, so we're not going to put her next to her, because she's going to talk to her. Yeah, I also had times where I didn't even know I was receiving extra help. That's how good they were. I was being taken out of the classroom to a separate place, and they were giving me, like a tutoring during school hours. I had no idea that they were helping me, because I was just like, Oh, I'm going to my little school thing. And everyone does this, right? No, they don't. They were just helping me because that's what I needed. My mom never even. Had to sign me up for it. It was fantastic. They just saw me and accommodated me. That's

    KC Davis 30:06

    amazing. Well, Amber, I really appreciate just kind of hearing your first person experience. And then I'm curious if you have any kind of like parting words for listeners at home that maybe have been considering going back to school and whether or not they should do that. And the fears that they have around that, you know, what would you say to someone who's considering it?

    Amber Anthony 30:24

    I'd say, jump in. Just jump in. It is not a sit around and think about it and go back and forth and make a pro. I mean, if you're a pro and conless person, do it. But, I mean, I think it's going to come out in the favor of jump in. Do it, because if you find out that's not what you like, change your major again. It doesn't matter. Just find something that you love, and if at the end of it, you're like, you know what? School wasn't it, but you make a bunch of friends, you make contacts, you network. Something can still come out of it, even if it's not a degree. Something really beautiful can happen when you just decide to be part of more than what you are right now.

    KC Davis 31:04

    Yeah, that's great. Well, Amber, thank you so much, and we'll throw some helpful links into the show notes for anybody that wants to look up stuff about accommodations. And I hope you guys all have a great day.

    Amber Anthony 31:16

    Thank you. Thank you so much.

Christy Haussler
119: How to Have the Best Fight of Your Life with Lindley Gentile, LMFT

How are your fighting skills? Most couples could use a LOT of work in this area, and I have just the person to help us! I’m thrilled to be joined by a great friend, Lindley Gentile, for today’s episode. She’s a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist who recently wrote an ebook titled, How to Have the Best Fight of Your Life. Listen to our conversation about this thought-provoking topic and learn why looking for right and wrong is the WORST way to handle conflict. 

Show Highlights:

  • Lindley’s motivation to write this book? Because many (most!) couples seek therapy around communication issues

  • Fighting well leads to being seen well.

  • The need to uplevel your fighting skill set beyond being “right or wrong”

  • Ways in which we are fighting wrong

  • Making the shift from arguing about who’s right to witnessing one another

  • The fable of the elephant can teach us about being open to another’s experience.

  • The value of “I” statements over “You” statements

  • Withdrawing physically and emotionally during conflict vs. the skill of asking for a pause

  • Fight, flight, or freeze

  • The WWC framework: witness, witness, and collaborate

Resources and Links:

Connect with Lindley Gentile and Austin Couples Concierge: Website, Instagram, and book

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC 0:05

    Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. This is your host, KC Davis. This is the struggle care podcast, and I am really excited to have Len Lee Gentile back in the studio with me today. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She is one of my best friends for a long time, and I still feel like I never know if I'm pronouncing your name, your married name, correctly, because you got married a few years ago. Yes, you are. It's beautiful. Okay, all right. Well, Lindley Gentile, I asked you to come on today because you have recently written this sort of like mini book, and it's called how to fight. What is it called? I'm very prepared, as you can tell.

    Lindley 0:57

    okay.

    KC 0:57

    So I've brought Lily on today because she has recently written a little mini ebook, and it's called How to have the best fight of your life, which I love the title of that. And I'm curious, like, as a marriage therapist, like, what led you to write this little book? Like, did you just because, to me as a therapist, the only time I've ever, like, gone to write down things is because it is something I have had to repeat to every single client over and over and over. And over and over. And I just wanted to be like, here read this. So I'm curious if something has come up. You just hit the nail on the head.

    Lindley 1:28

    It is the number one reason clients reach out for therapy, and they use it under the words, we need to learn how to better communicate. What they really mean is we need to learn how to talk about things that are uncomfortable. We don't know how to communicate about things that are uncomfortable, about opposing views, about uncomfortable emotions. And so my business partner, Jessica Worthington, and I, we've been doing this for a long time with couples, and we came up with this recipe that just works. It just works. And I started teaching clients, fighting is the way that you fall in love. What led you to fall in love in the beginning is you felt seen. You felt heard my partner gets me. That's what leads to love in the beginning, right? And when we don't know how to fight well, we don't know how to be seen well, we don't know how to validate our partners Well, which means we're not taking these opportunities to fall in love again and again and again. So yes, it'll save you from uncomfortable conversations now. But the real point in learning how to fight well is you want to continue to fall in love with your partner again and again and again over time. This is really making sense to me, because you fall in love because you come to someone and you don't know them, and then you get to know them, and you learn new things about them, and in that though you feel seen and accepted, but once you know someone and you know them, well, there is no new like novelty and Discovery, except when there's a disagreement,

    KC 3:21

    because those are really your prime opportunities to go, I don't get this. Let me go through the process of understanding you and seeing you and learning about you and then deciding to love what I see, which makes sense. That's

    Speaker 1 3:37

    a learned skill set, and I find that 99% of the couples that come to see me, they've not up leveled that skill set yet, right? We up level so many things in our lives. We up level the foods we eat, the drinks we drink, our investments, our careers, but we so rarely up level our tool set and marriage. And so most people are still fighting the very, I'm going to say, juvenile way, right? But it's just like the way that occurs to most humans, which is right or wrong, who is right, who is wrong, right? And so we get lost in trying to over explain ourselves and to justify why we did what we did, we get defensive, and that really robs us of this opportunity to be curious and learn about our partner.

    KC 4:33

    So you have, in your book, you have four ways that we are fighting wrong, like four ways we're doing it wrong, four ways we are, like, getting in our own way, and I want to kind of talk about that. So the first one is, you say ignoring the problem. And I love that this is what you start with, because I do think that there's this idea that, Oh, we never fight, so we must be good because we never conflict, so that must be a good relationship, right? But how many times is it that we're actually just. Uh, avoiding issues and burying things and just harboring resentment or, like, not having boundaries. Like, is that kind of what you were alluding to

    Speaker 1 5:08

    there? Yeah, it's most people have gotten it into their minds. The most common analogy I hear, it feels like I am an attorney who's going to have to give a closing argument, and I've got to get my facts correct and my data in line, and I've got to get all my points and, you know, Cross my T's and.my i's and before I kind of sit down with my partner and tell them why I did what I did or defend what I did, and that is so overwhelming to me that I would prefer to sweep the problem under the rug and move on. That's just easier. Let me

    KC 5:42

    tell you that that really resonates with me. I think it especially resonates with people who are partnered with someone who is smarter than them,

    Lindley 5:52

    or just better at arguing. Yeah, I

    KC 5:53

    guess that's what I mean. I don't mean smart like, I'm a smart person and I'm good at arguing. Michael is better. Is an attorney. He is, like, gifted IQ, like he is always going to out argue me, just on, like, the points and the closing argument, or whatever, whatever. And so I do feel that temptation of like, I would honestly just rather say I'm sorry for something that isn't even my fault so we can reconcile the relationship and move on. Because I'm overwhelmed with the idea of having to, like, in PowerPoint presentation, closing argument together in such a water tight way that he can't poke you know what I mean? And like, so I do. I don't even sometimes bother to, like, bring something up that actually matters to me.

    Speaker 1 6:33

    And here's the thing, we are no longer going to have to present a closing argument, because the point of arguing in this new up leveled way is witnessing one another. It's not about right or wrong. There isn't such thing as a right or wrong. There are always many realities that live side by side. So when you can get out of this idea of right or wrong and move into the point of this argument is actually witnessing one another. You no longer have to gather that closing argument. So

    KC 7:07

    that really helps me on the flip side of it, because, you know, it's funny, like when I talk about, okay, Michael can out argue me, but at the same time, like I can out argue many of my friends and family members. So like, people have told me the same thing about me. It's like, I don't want to tell you something bothered me because we have to have an inquisition about it. And in my head, though, I'm not thinking I need to be right, what I'm thinking is I'm happy to believe the truth, but like, you're gonna have to demonstrate it to me. And so I'm pushing back really hard, not even necessarily because I'm trying to be like a butt head, but because I'm like, but you're not making the case. Well, how can I switch my opinion if you're not making the case? Of course, I care about you, but like, you're not making the case. And my poor friend is just like, I'm it's just exhausted, Casey, I don't know like, and so for me, when I'm that person hearing that, my job isn't to change my mind or to like accept their reality over mine, but is just to witness their reality. Also helps me when I'm the person that is like doing too much of the closing argument, if that makes sense,

    Speaker 1 8:15

    absolutely, we want to move people away from finding a singular truth, and instead understanding that many truths can hold hands, the point is not finding the one truth, it's witnessing all the truths that live side by side.

    KC 8:37

    So then your second tip really hit me between the eyes. Okay, this is the next mistake that people make. You say, offering additional information to clarify what really happened. If they only knew X, they wouldn't be so upset. And it's you say, although this may be true, they will not be able to integrate the information you are offering until they feel heard. I always think this, and this is also why, like, we'll have a disagreement, and the disagreement would be over. But then I'll get to my bedroom and I'll be like, but wait a second, and I'll think of my next point, and I'll like, barge back in over and over, because I really do think, like, Wait, if I just give you this one more piece of information about, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever. And that one really struck me, like, this urge, or almost compulsion, to clarify, clarify, clarify. And I get stuck with this. Like, okay, if you're not understanding me, I must just not be like, saying it clear enough. So let me say it harder, louder, clearer. Like, yes,

    Speaker 1 9:33

    I heard this story once on the internet. It was such a great analogy. The man was talking about, imagine you walk up on your partner or a loved one or a friend, and they're currently drowning in a body of water, and they are in crisis mode. They're going, they're bobbing up and down, and you're saying, didn't you read the rules on this sign? Let me read the. Rules to you, had you have known the rules, you wouldn't be in this situation. And don't you know that it's not smart to swim after 10pm Surely, if you understand that it's not good to swim at dark, you wouldn't be in this situation. Meanwhile, our partner, right? They don't need more facts. They actually don't need any of that data. They don't need you to recount any of that to them. They would like you to see that they are struggling and to throw them a life raft at best. All right, your

    KC 10:28

    next tip is have a grown up tantrum. And I feel like you put this so well, because as someone who just wrote a whole book about relationships, I was struggling to put this in the succinct of a way, and you basically just say, yeah, like having a grown up tantrum, yelling, name calling, pouting, they won't lead to a mature relationship, and they won't evoke the admiration of your partner. God, that sentence is so powerful. It's like it's not effective. It's not only not effective in changing someone's mind, but like, the way that it wears down the trust and admiration when we lash out like that,

    Speaker 1 11:02

    absolutely I like the word admiration. I also want to use the word attraction. We often think it's our job. It's our partner's job to remain attracted to us. It's their job to remain attracted to me. It's their job to admire me. It's their job to respect me. I like to think it's my job to be admirable. It's my job to be respectful. It's my job to be attractive so that my partner wants to draw near me. It's really hard to expect our partners to maintain the desire to want to draw near us when that's what we're modeling

    KC 11:44

    when we're shitty, to be near Correct, yeah, okay, I love that. And then their last one is toxic positivity. So talk to us about that. Yeah.

    Speaker 1 11:55

    Well, you and I had many discussions about this, but I actually believe that the point of an emotion is to give you a gift. It is to give you direction and information on where to go next in life and how to advocate for your needs. If you expect to only feel comfortable ones, right? I only want to there's a spectrum of emotions, but I only want to stay on this end, happy, silly, playful, and I only want my partner to be happy, silly, playful. We are not answering the door for many, many other important messengers, right? We can still gifts from pain, shame, anxiousness, anger. They're all here to give us really important data. The most mentally healthy people allow themselves to feel all the emotions on the spectrum, right? We don't want to just focus on those super pleasant ones. We want to welcome even the unpleasant because they have a very important purpose in our life. They're like a GPS. They direct us where to go next. And Dr Susan, David, she's an incredible writer. She's an amazing TED talk. Um, she says, you know, the price of admission to a meaningful life is being uncomfortable. It's feeling those uncomfortable emotions. So if we know that they create meaning and they give us gifts, why would we want to shut them down in our partner or rob our partner of having that experience, and why would we want to shut them down on ourselves?

    KC 13:27

    Yeah, that's good. Okay, so I said four. I know the list is more than four. There's like six other ones here, but you'll have to go get the ebook to read the rest of them, because I want to ask some questions. Moving on to sort of like solutions, right? So, okay, those are some strategies that don't work. Of course, there are more of them, but I want to kind of move into this idea of witnessing. Can you talk to us about, like, where, how that's different than how a lot of us go into you mentioned like, like, how do like shifting from, you know, who's right? Let's prove it to each other to witnessing. What does that transition look

    Speaker 1 14:03

    like? Absolutely. Let me start with a story. It's an old fable that I think will really help people understand witnessing. There is an old, ancient fable about an elephant, a village who has never experienced an elephant. They can see an elephant coming from a very far distance through the forest and a group of brothers. They're adventurers. They say, Hey, how about we go check out the elephant in the forest and we'll report back to the village what an elephant is like. The three brothers take off for the forest. What's important to know about the three brothers is that they're without sight, so they are exploring the elephant, taking in, you know, with their hands and sensory information. And one of the brothers says an elephant is exactly like a long thin rope, just like a long thin rope. And brother number two begins yelling at him, that is not the truth. The truth is that the elephant. Is like a sturdy tree trunk. And they're going back and forth about who has the right truth. And the third brother comes in and says, You guys are idiots. An elephant is like a thin paper fan. So obviously, what's happening is we have one brother at the tell, one at the trunk, one at the ear. Everybody is screaming about who has the truth. And in reality, everybody has a piece of the truth, but it takes curiosity and it takes openness to hear what the partner is experiencing to get the complete truth right. So I always ask people to embrace this fable of the elephant and remember that multiple realities are true at once. It depends on your childhood, right? It depends on your life experiences, and if you're at the tail or the trunk or the ear, what information you're taking in. But when you can be curious about how do I talk about the ear and also witness my partner explaining the tell, because when we have both of these parts, then we have a more complete truth. So that

    KC 16:07

    makes sense to me. I want to kind of explore a connected sort of part to that. That you talk about is you talk about using I statements. And I feel like this is one of those, like old therapy advices about, you know, like, always use I statements, nobody can make you feel anything. And it's one of those advices that, like, I think has some really important truth, but it's been so over prescribed that people's eyes kind of glaze over. So can you talk about, like, what is the real purpose of using the I statements, like, what does that mean? Are there ways that we can, like, Use I statements that, like, kind of defeats the purpose and like, what really is the heart or the intention of that? So first explain what it is, in case someone doesn't know, sure. So

    Speaker 1 16:53

    let's just talk about the elephant, right? An I statement is, I am experiencing a long, thin rope. I can't possibly tell my partner what they are experiencing. They're at a different part of the elephant that wouldn't be productive. I don't know what they're experiencing. I actually need to open my ears to know that, right? So that's what it is, is we only say the word I I felt embarrassed when this statement was said. We do not say You humiliated me when you made that joke, right? So we only want to talk about the part of the elephant we are personally experiencing. So we say the word I now throw away all the old therapy language, and just think about it like this, when we say the word you, we unintentionally activate our partners amygdala. It's the part of their brain that wants to defend, defend, defend, defend, defend. Okay, so we just immediately and subconsciously, we're not aware of it, and they're not aware of it, but immediately our partners defense system will come online, and they will now have no choice but to defend when we say, I am experiencing this, I am feeling this, I am noticing this, it actually triggers The part of our partner's brain that wants to care give and wants to step closer to us. So we're inviting them to come closer when we use you statements, you did this, and this was your reality, and this is why you did it. We are inviting them to push away.

    KC 18:40

    And, you know, one of the things that I appreciate about I statements, that I think has gotten lost when it comes to pop psychology is that people envision that when you use I statements, that it basically like, permits mistreatment and abuse. Because, like, you know that I think the first thing that comes up is like, Okay, but what if they were, like, purposefully humiliating me? And I'm trying to point out that, like, that's not okay behavior yet, like, but to me, what I have noticed is that, like, best case scenario, right? Let's say I'm at a dinner party and my husband makes a joke, and he thinks he's being funny. He thinks that this is going to be light hearted, and it really embarrasses me. Best case scenario, me saying I was really embarrassed, like you said that because he loves me, that clicks in this caregiving, like, oh my god, the person I love is in pain, and it allows him to go, oh gosh, I participated in that pain, and I didn't mean to, and I'm so sorry, but if I say like, you embarrass me. Even though he loves me, even though he's a good man, and even though I know he has the maturity and the skills to hear past that and put his defensiveness down, he's still going to feel that like, oh gosh, she's against. And it kicks in his own, like, I want to be loved, she's going to reject me. And I'm not saying like, Oh, it's my responsibility to take care of that stuff for her, but I'm just saying, like, best case scenario, this is a person that I love who loves me, and I know that I can help them hear me by using this language, and that will allow us to come closer. Now it even works in the worst case scenario, because what if I'm married to someone who is genuinely malicious, and they knew they were saying something to humiliate me, and it was maybe even like the language they used, no court of law in the land would ever be like, there's no way he didn't intend to humiliate you, even in that scenario, if I lead with you, purposefully humiliated me. I have now put us exactly where he wants us to be, which is in a you prove it, I prove it. You're always coming after me. You always do like I'm setting up the kind of conflict that a malicious person is very good at having, very good at manipulating, very good at gaslighting through but like, if I say I was so embarrassed when you said that, and I have laid myself out vulnerably and said I'm in pain, and his reaction to that is, well, that's your fault. That tells me everything I need to know about this person's character. There's nothing I can do to, like, force them to care about my pain, no matter how much, like you said, clarifying information I give. But it's just a powerful boundaries, because he, if he's malicious, if he's manipulative, he's gonna try and drag me into those conflicts. Well, you're just too sensitive, maybe, but it really, really hurt me. Well, that's not my fault. Didn't say it was I said it really, really embarrassed me. Well, all I'm doing, you know, you always do this. I don't know what that means, but I'm just saying, like, if you keep it on the subject of, I'm not even saying what you did didn't motive. Like, I'm not even saying any of that stuff to, like, throw us into this big fight. I'm literally just restating I was really hurt by that, and you watch them flounder on the line of being incapable of empathy, of being unwilling to be loving, and there's nothing they can do, you've literally just held up this mirror, and that way, it is more powerful to address things that are obviously malicious by not going there and staying on the I statements, I

    Speaker 1 22:28

    agree wholeheartedly. We're either going to lead ourselves to a productive conflict or we're going to reveal information about our partner that we desperately need anyways to make some tough decisions.

    KC 22:41

    Yeah, it's like we're either gonna lead ourselves to a productive resolution or we're gonna lead ourselves to a productive non resolution. Yes, that's the power of i statements like I refuse to be thrown into other arguments, to where by the time we're done arguing, I don't even know what we've started talking about, and we never actually address you know what I mean? So I just, man, I really, like when you really do understand the purpose of the i statement, it's really much more powerful than what pop psychology has made it about. You know? Well, I can't make you feel anything. Didn't say you could. I just said that I did. And in fact, most of the time when you make jokes about me, I feel that same

    Lindley 23:19

    way. I wholeheartedly agree.

    KC 23:21

    So like, one of your mistakes that we make is withdrawing physically or emotionally during an argument. So like, we hang up the phone, or we walk away or whatever, but then later you talk about the skill of asking for a pause, because maybe, like, our brains really activated, and I'm wondering if you could explain kind of the difference between one of those, like, basically, like, one of those things being a mistake, but the other one being like a tool, sure.

    Speaker 1 23:46

    So one of the foundations that we ask you to have in place before you use our conflict recipe. You know, we've talked about multiple realities. We've talked about I statements. The other really important ingredient is having the full brain system online. We have a part of the brain called the amygdala that is constantly scanning for danger now, because we no longer live in the age of saber tooth tigers chasing us. Our brain, our amygdala, is quite bored, right? And when it picks up on any sense of danger, so now it may just be a partner who's unhappy with us, we immediately go into fight or flight. Fight, flight, freeze, Bond, right? This is survival responses. What happens is our frontal lobe tends to power down the blood flow that would have gone to our frontal lobe begins to go to other areas of our body to help us fight, flight or freeze. This is not a good time to have a productive conflict if we don't have access to logical brain. This is when we say things we don't mean, like Fu and your mom and the horse she rode in on. And I wish I would have never right. No, we don't have access to logical thought. We are currently. At an elevated heart rate, we're focusing on defending or shutting down. This is not an appropriate time when we sense this with ourselves or our partner. The best thing we can do is take a break right now. The way we do that incorrectly is saying, Peace out. I'm out of here, and we get into our car and disappear. That can feel like abandonment to our partner. They may interpret that as my partner doesn't care about my pain. They don't care about this issue that's important to me, and they're running away instead, if we can say my brain flipped right. I'm in fight or flight, whatever you want to call it, right? Like I had a couple one time who used to say pickles. I don't know why, but that was the word pickles. Like I'm there. I'm at a place where I don't have access to my logical brain. If we find a way to communicate that to our partners, hey, I'm not in a place I don't have access to my brain, right? I need to step away. I care about this. I'll come back. Right? Let them know when you're going to come back. I'm going to be really honest. I've been teaching this for 11 years. I need 24 hours period. I am not the type of person that can ground myself instantly and be able to keep my brain online and talk about the conflict. I need 12 hours. 24 hours. In really difficult cases, I need 48

    Lindley 26:34

    and it was hard for my husband to get on board with that in the beginning, I would say, I need to step away. I'm not in a place where I can have, you know, productive conflict. I've lost my logical brain. I'm gonna go lay down. Let's talk about this tomorrow. Let's reconvene. I do care about it. And I would go into our room, and he would march right behind me and open the door up and say, No, we're gonna finish this right now. Right? So it's really letting your partner know I care. I've got to pause. We are going to do this later. I find that most people need 24 hours. It is okay to go to bed angry. I don't know what crazy person invented that stupid line of, never go to bed. Angry. Me. I'm like, always, always go to bed angry. Get some sleep. Let the blood flow return to your logical center. Talk about it the next day when you have access to your full brain, or when your partner has access to your full brain, this is not a one night stand. They're not going anywhere. You're married or you're in a committed relationship, right? You've got plenty of time to work this out. And I say, you know, as long as we've come back to the table within 48 hours or so, I think that that's a good timeline.

    KC Davis 27:52

    I like that. Okay, so then explain to us what your process is for witnessing? Yeah,

    Speaker 1 28:02

    we like to tell people WWC, witness, witness, collaborate. Okay, so there is a story in the book about a pair of clients who, just like you said, they were at a dinner party, and the husband cracked a joke about their sex life, like, Hey, we've got little kids, our sex life is is in the toilet, like, it's terrible. And then he made some sort of joke, and everybody at the dinner party starts laughing, and the wife

    KC 28:33

    is humiliated, right? The typical way humiliation shows up is anger and rage, right? We know that, right? The outward expression of humiliation is often anger. So she's pissed, the kind of pissed where you leave your body, you're so angry, right? She's like, dissociated from her body now, but she's using our principles, and she knows now is not a good time to talk about it. I don't have all the brain systems online. I'm gonna go home, we're gonna go to bed, I'm gonna shower, I'll bring it up tomorrow. So at about noon the next day, she has all of her brain systems online, and she starts the process, WWC, witness, witness, collaborate. And she says, Hey baby, I just want to let you know that I felt really humiliated when this comment was said last night.

    Speaker 1 29:20

    Okay, she never said the word you. She started it out beautifully with her I statement. Now, husband knows we're going to start the recipe now, witness, witness, collaborate, and he says, baby, oh my goodness, I am so sorry. I see that you're embarrassed, right? So the first thing we want to do we witness someone is just like, mirror back, mirror back. What you hear? Oh, my goodness, you're embarrassed. Oh my goodness, you're humiliated, right? He is seeing her. He is hearing her. I always tell people ask a question so that they really feel hurt. He asked the question. What part of the elephant are you at? Right? Like, what are you experiencing? Explain it to me, that's, that's what he's doing there. So she is able to say what I'm experiencing is I felt embarrassed because it felt like maybe it was my fault that our sex life is struggling, when, in reality, I think it's the season of life we're at. We've got small babies, and the schedule is hard for both of us. And he says, I hear you. I see you. He repeats back to her, what he heard, is there anything else you want me to know? And she says, No, I feel seen. I feel heard. And he says, Okay, would it be possible for you to witness me now? And she says, Absolutely. And he says, Okay, so this is the part of the elephant I was at, right? I was really worried about our friends. We know they're having a super tough time in their marriage. They feel very isolated. They feel like they're broken. I thought if I could throw ourselves under the bus a little bit, that maybe they would feel more normal, and they would feel like they're not in this struggle, season alone. And so, you know, the wife witnessed him. Oh, baby, that big heart of yours, right? Like I can tell you were trying to use that big heart of yours. What was your biggest hope or what was your biggest goal there, right? And he says, I just want to save their marriage, like I want them to know they're not in this alone. Don't give up. And she's like, Oh, baby, I had no idea. That's why you made the joke, right? So now he feels seen. He feels understood. We have now witnessed each other. We had very different realities. Both realities walked side by side. We didn't need to figure out a singular truth or a right or a wrong. There was no closing argument that need to be had. It was two people who were curious, what are you experiencing? What are you experiencing? And now they said, collaborate, right? WWC, what do we do moving forward, knowing that you really love to help people feel normal, and then I really feel sensitive about this topic of sex. And he said, Well, you know what? Like, how about we throw ourselves under the bus in, like, lots of areas, but maybe not the sex area, right? Like, maybe until we fully work through this one ourselves, we kind of keep this one private. And she said, Baby, I would love that. That would make me feel really respected and supported. Immediately after that, they were like, Hey, let's meet up for lunch, right? Let's go meet up for lunch and let's hang out. They had a wonderful lunch together before they up, leveled their conflict skills. This is what it would have sounded like. She would have come home that night, right? And she would have been furious, rageful, embarrassed, angry You embarrassed me. How dare you make a joke about our sex lives right now, right? This would have triggered his amygdala, his fight or flight, and he would have immediately gone into a defensive state. You're so sensitive. You're always so sensitive. I'm sure everyone else there laughed. Why can't you laugh? Right? And now we would have been off to the races back and forth about who was right, who was wrong, who's sensitive, who

    KC 33:24

    you always do this.

    Speaker 1 33:25

    You always do this right, which would have turned into an explosion. They would have gone to bed, you know, not speaking, and then likely would have not spoken for the next day or two, until finally, one of them cracked a joke and they just moved on. Would have happened is they would have missed the opportunity to fall in love. They would have missed the opportunity to see and hear each other.

    KC 33:50

    I love that that's really helpful. And I really like the way, you know, in the little book, or whatever you lay out, like very specifically what words you can use, and what steps you can take to do this process, which, you know, maybe not everybody wants to use, you know, an exact formula, but I think for a lot of people, that kind of formula is really, really helpful.

    Speaker 1 34:11

    Yes, absolutely. To me, if I have a few sentences that I can grab onto in the beginning until the concept really absorbs. I know that that helps me a lot. So I wanted to give people like, hey, try these few phrases that seem to work really well. Just start here.

    KC 34:32

    That's awesome. So if people want to download this, where can they go to find it? Do you guys have a website?

    Speaker 1 34:39

    I think the easiest way to find the book is to visit our website, Austin couples concierge.com, we also are relaunching our Instagram. Austin couples concierge, it'll be in the bio there, and they can follow the link and download it at home. They can do this. They can practice this from the comfort of their home. Oh. Awesome.

    KC 35:00

    Well, thank you so much for your time, and as always, it's been such a great conversation. Thank

    Lindley 35:05

    you. You.

Christy Haussler
118: OCD in Children: When it’s More than Anxiety with Natasha Daniels

Today’s episode will be helpful for all parents—and for anyone who has ever been a child. We are discussing OCD, specifically in children, with Natasha Daniels. She has been an anxiety and OCD child therapist for over two decades. As the mother of three kids with anxiety and OCD, her passion and perspective is both professional and personal. Join us to learn more!

Show Highlights:

  • OCD differs from general anxiety and requires very specific therapies.

  • Signs of OCD, a diverse, idiosyncratic disorder that shows up differently for each person

  • In children, a common sign of OCD is the tendency to ask theme-based, repetitive questions.

  • Is it anxiety or OCD? 

  • Autism and OCD: Comfort/coping skills or compulsion?

  • When does my child need professional help? How do I know?

  • OCD or nervous tics?

  • A discussion of mental health issues in families, social anxiety, neuroplasticity, and addiction

  • Finding “the sweet spot” as a parent (so as not to coddle but not fuel anxiety)

  • The best approach: parents can refuse to participate in the “overblownness” and drama while not being dismissive

  • The wisdom in coaching our kids

Resources and Links:

Connect with Natasha Daniels: Website (find resources, courses, podcast episodes, and more)

OCD Resources: International OCD Foundation and Treat My OCD

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:00

    Music. Hello, you Cynthia balls of stardust, you little OCD weirdos. I say that with affection, of course, because today we're going to talk about OCD. And specifically we're going to talk about OCD in children. And if you are a parent, this is going to be a good episode. And you know what? If you're not a parent, but you've ever been a child, you're going to want to listen to this one too. We're going to talk about OCD today with Natasha. Daniels, Natasha, thank you for being here.

    Natasha Daniels 0:29

    Oh, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Yeah, okay,

    KC Davis 0:32

    so introduce yourself. Tell us why you know about this subject. Well,

    Natasha Daniels 0:36

    clinically, I am an anxiety and OCD child therapist. I have been for two decades, so I feel really old. I think more importantly, I actually have three kids with anxiety and OCD, and so it's something that I live with as a parent. So I wear both hats.

    KC Davis 0:50

    I love that I always feel like that's kind of the perfect that's like the clinician I want. Like I want the personal and I want the clinical, because they both bring something really important, and they both bring something that the other side can't bring by itself. Totally

    Natasha Daniels 1:05

    Yeah. You want someone who gets it and knows how hard it is, yeah?

    KC Davis 1:08

    So when we chatted before the recording, one of the things that you're really passionate about is talking about the distinction between OCD and just kind of general anxiety or anxiety that may be coming from other sources, and tell me why it is you think that is so important that we kind of pull out OCD as something distinct.

    Natasha Daniels 1:32

    It's so important. I'm glad you're starting with this, because I think it's so so important because the therapeutic approach is different, and if you treat OCD as if it's anxiety, and you go to a regular general practitioner and they try, like cognitive behavioral therapy or some other approaches, it's not going to work with someone with OCD. And in fact, with cognitive behavioral therapy can actually make it worse with general CBT. And so you want very specific ERP exposure response prevention, which is a type of CBT, not to throw acronyms at you, like, right from the get go, but that's important. Yeah.

    KC Davis 2:07

    And, you know, a lot of my I think it's hard as when thinking as adults, right? Like, when you're an adult looking back at your life and you're kind of trying to figure out, like, Hey, where's all this stuff coming from for me, it's so difficult as an adult, because by then you have so much life experience, you probably have some traumas thrown in there. And I've just never met, I don't know that I've ever met somebody had, like, one thing going on, right? Like, Sure, maybe they are autistic, but they also have ADHD, and there's some trauma, and, you know, maybe the world around them is burning and like, it's just, there's just so much going on. And, you know, I wouldn't say that it's totally easy with kids, but at least earlier in life, there are fewer factors to consider, and there's so much anxiety that I think just comes from living if you're disabled, if you're neuro divergent, if you have mental health issues, if you are, you know, from a marginalized community, if you are a woman, if you are living in late stage capitalism. I mean, there's just so many reasons, and some of them very valid, to feel anxious. And so it makes sense that when we're looking at our kids and we're going, Okay, well, my kid is really anxious, and they're also ADHD, so maybe it's that, or, well, maybe they're autistic, or maybe it's that, or is this just social anxiety, or is this a normal development, like, sometimes I feel like I go too much the opposite way, like it's normal for a kid to feel some anxiety at certain developmental ages, right? So I guess my question is, you know, what would be, kind of some of the signs that I as a parent would be looking for that should not necessarily be, oh, this is definitely OCD, but should sort of, like, turn that curiosity on. For me,

    Natasha Daniels 3:53

    it's interesting, because I feel like out of all the disorders that you can have, especially in childhood, OCD is the oddball where it's like, it's very clear to see it when you know what to look for, versus, you know, fleshing out the differences between, you know, autistic behavior or ADHD behavior and OCD. Then when you get into the CO occurring struggles, then it gets a little bit trickier. I have kids with multiple co occurring things going on. And my son and I always argue, he'll be like, That's my ADHD. And I'm like, I think that's OCD. We actually had a huge argument last night about that, and I was like, we could just agree to disagree. Yeah, he knows his brain, but I am a therapist, so but the different like the signs that you might see when you're looking at your child's behavior is and it is hard to say, because OCD is such a diverse, idiosyncratic disorder that shows up differently for each person, and so I think that is one of the reasons why it's missed. Most people don't get diagnosed. It can take 17 years to get a diagnosis in the right treatment, because it's so hard if you're not trained and had a cocd, but on a very general term, like if you see a child doing. Uh, repetitive behavior, because compulsions can tend to be repetitive and not purpose filled, right? So if your child's like going through a door, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, we obviously know the stereotypes of washing their hands or lighting things up, but I want to talk about some non stereotypical ones that are super common but get missed in in the media that involve the parent. This one gets missed a lot. So if your child's asking you questions on a loop, and you're like, oh my gosh, like, it's kind of, I always say, like, the pull your hair out moment where you're like, we've already, I've asked this, I've answered this, like, 300 times, and you're coming back for more. So it might look like, you know, Mom, I touched the clock, swipes, and then I wipe the sink down, and then I rinse my hands, and then I touch my mouth. Is that poisonous? Mom, I touched a plan outside and, you know, like, so it's all these kind of questions that are either reassurance seeking or checking, seeking. I thought that I might have gossiped about my friend the other day. Is that doesn't make me a bad person, and our kids are going to ask these questions. But then it's the intensity, and it's the lack of satiation, you know, like they're not getting anything from the conversation. It's almost like you're talking to a wall. And so I would look for those kind of things. So

    KC Davis 6:06

    let me ask you a couple questions on those kind of pop up for me. So like, what about because I think a lot of kids will do this sort of, like, asking question over and over when it comes to, like, wanting something. So it's like, Hey, I'm hungry. And, you know, maybe it takes you 10 minutes to put something together, but they're asking three times, I'm hungry. Are you getting me food? I'm hungry. But is that? Can that be developmentally like, distinguish whether it's kind of an impulse control? I'm hungry, I'm hungry. Are you making it? I'm hungry. Are you making it? Yes,

    Natasha Daniels 6:33

    that is a great a great distinction, because, yeah, kids can nag you, or they can be impulsive or impatient. They're normally when it's OCD, it's theme based. So you'll start to notice a theme like, wow, they're always asking me questions about if they've done something bad, or they're always asking me questions if something is poisonous, or they're always asking me questions if I wash my hands. Like you'll start to if you really pay attention initially, they seem like worry based questions, yes for the most part, yeah. And the other thing is, they typically want something from you, not the sandwich or whatever you're making, but they want a specific response, like you might say, I love you. And they'll say, No, you have to say, I love you too, you know. And they'll almost re script what you need to say, or how you or if you throw it back with, like, an ambiguous response, like, let's just use the Clorox wipes as an example. If you say, I'm sure it's okay, right? Like, just, you know you're busy, and you're like, I'm sure it's okay, that would not satisfy the OCD, typically. And so they might say, No, Mom, is it okay? And so you kind of get that push back. They're wanting to hear something specific. It can show up in all different ways. I'm just using examples, but it can look different.

    KC Davis 7:48

    What about like if you get asked, let's say you're getting pancakes, and your kid says, Don't put the whipped cream on until the pancakes have cooled down, otherwise it'll melt. You're like, Sure. And then you go, and you get the whipped cream from the thing, and you're walking over just now, remember, don't put the Like, you don't know where it's the same question, but it's almost like, it's like, okay, well, I clearly have remembered that you said it 30 seconds

    Natasha Daniels 8:12

    ago. No, I think that is, like, just anticipatory anxiety. Like, please don't do that. Like, I'm gonna freak out if you do that. Yeah. And for me, like, I think when it's OCD, intuitively, a parent will know the difference, like, you'll feel it, it's like It's nonsensical, versus those things of, like, I'm anxious. Did you do this? Because when you're talking to anxiety, like when your child is anxious, and I have kids with both issues, and so I can tell who I'm talking to, you know, the anxiety or the OCD. And so when it's anxiety, like, I feel like we can move forward. I'll try to give you some examples. Like, Well, I

    KC Davis 8:45

    think what comes to me, sort of intuitively, is that it seems like anxiety can be soothed, like, by by an emotional response, whereas, like, what I know about OCD, and I guess probably good to clarify for people at home, like, the reason it's called obsessive compulsive disorder is that actually the obsessions and the compulsions are two different aspects of it, right? And the obsession is whatever the belief is that isn't reasonable, but it's sort of impervious to logic, right? And then the compulsion refers to the action that one takes as a response to the obsession, either to try and manage it or to quell it, or to satisfy it, or whatever, right Would you say that's mostly accurate? So when we have a kid maybe asking about like, Are you sure it's not poisonous? Are you sure it's not poisonous? I kind of hear you saying that like a kid that just experiences some anxiety can be soothed, even if they need lots of soothing by like an attuned emotional response that not necessarily the words I'm using or that I'm saying the exact right thing, but that I'm just kind of being attuned and that helps, whereas a kid with OCD really needs, almost like they need me to participate in the ritual of specific words or specific reassurance. Businesses that don't seem to ever actually reassure they just seem to, like, put a pin in it for the moment because it's going to

    Natasha Daniels 10:06

    come back. Yeah, yes, that's a really great way to describe it.

    KC Davis 10:10

    And how do we because a lot of this also is sounding like kids on the spectrum, like, how do we distinguish between some of those, like, repetitive and restrictive behaviors that we might see with an autistic kid. How do we know whether that's their autism or whether it's just OCD, or maybe an autistic kid can have OCD, and how do we distinguish that?

    Natasha Daniels 10:33

    Yeah, and unfortunately, a lot of autistic kids have OCD. And so it does get really sticky when you get into the weeds, and then, on a general level, typically, that rigid, repetitive behavior, or stimming behavior that you see in autistic kids is comforting to them. There is like this comfort, like, I want this routine, I want my red cup. I want to go this way, compulsions. And even in autistic kids, that repetitive behavior is not comforting long term, like there's distress in it, there's like, this overwhelm in it. And so you can start to see the nuance and the difference. One is comfort and a coping skill, and the other one is a compulsion. And it's

    KC Davis 11:10

    that's an interesting that's an interesting distinction that I think is really helpful. So when you have a kid that's saying, like, No Mom, say these words, because we know that, like, scripting can happen with autistic kids too, but it sounds like you're saying, like, long term, we should be able to kind of clue in as to whether you know the restrictive behavior is like, what I know about autism is that if an autistic child can have their repetitive behavior, It kind of stabilizes them in a lot of ways. But does a compulsion have a stabilizing effect on a kid with OCD in

    Natasha Daniels 11:49

    the short term? Yes, and this is why it gets very confusing, because let's say you have a child who has just right OCD themes that one gets really confusing because just right and disgust themes are not fear based. They're feeling based. And so the fear is I won't be able to handle the discomfort of it not feeling just right, or I won't be able to handle the feeling of it feeling disgusting for me. And so those get missed a lot, and I think there is overlap. But when someone, let's just say someone has just right OCD themes, and you say something to them, but it didn't feel just right, they'll be like, No, say it again, and then you repeat it, and they're like, no, no, mom, like, you have to say it this way. You repeat it again. And there's escalation in, like, getting it to feel just right. And you'll know, I'm on a loop with them all the time where haven't raised an autistic child. So here's my like, caveat and disclaimer, and it's not my specialty, but certainly there's so many people in my community who are raising autistic kids, and the number keeps going up just because of the overlap. But I don't think you're gonna get that stuckness. Like there are people who can get stuck for hours with their kids on these loops that they can't escape, and the child explodes or implodes because they're not getting that satisfaction, because OCD is like, Nope, it didn't, it didn't feel just right. You have to say it again.

    KC Davis 13:09

    Well. And I wonder, even if, like, if a parent's listening and they're going, Okay, I know my kids on the spectrum, but it sounds like some of this stuff's going on. I wonder if, though, like, what the point you made at the beginning, where you said, like, OCD needs a different kind of intervention. I wonder if, at the end of the day, whether or not it is OCD or autism, if it's looking that similar, I wonder if that's the important thing to know, that perhaps an OCD intervention would be worth looking at to help an autistic child that is experiencing a lot of distress from a repetitive behavior, not necessarily like, oh, we need them to stop and look normal, but if they themselves are experiencing anxiety and distress, perhaps it's true that an autistic child experiencing that kind of distressful repetitive behavior does not need, as you said, a sort of like cognitive behavioral therapy, normal anxiety approach. But perhaps it would be worth looking at. Not so much. Oh, we have to know. We must know in black and white, is it OCD, but more? Hmm, this looks so much like it. Let's get curious about whether these kind of interventions would be helpful also, yeah,

    Natasha Daniels 14:23

    definitely. If it's causing distress and it's impacting their daily functioning, then that rigidity isn't serving them, and that would be something to look at. And how can they handle discomfort? Or how can they handle flexibility, which then it does overlap, because really, that is the ultimate goal with OCD treatment, is sitting with the discomfort and not scratching the itch. Now,

    KC Davis 14:41

    let me ask you another thing. How do we distinguish between OCD and maybe nervous tics? Like one of the things that happened to me when I was young was when my parents were going through a divorce, I developed, like some vocal tics, and I developed some almost. Was like, I guess compulsions around like, Okay, I've turned the light three times. I need to turn it till it feels right, or I need to. There were some other ones, but I had this little vocal tic where was like, and I wasn't doing it. I was doing it kind of subconsciously. It very much had to do with, there's a feeling that it feels like it's going to hit the spot. If I do it and it's not quite doing it, I have to kind of do it till it does. And they didn't persist through childhood. It happened in kind of like that space there. But it did have that similar I guess, when you were talking about the just right one, that kind of almost like, threw me back to like, Okay, I've done it on the left side. Now I have to do it on the right side. And I have to just kind of sit here and I have to just kind of sit here and do this until it feels right. Yeah. And I'm curious if those are related, or if, you know, there's kind of a spot here for, you know how to kind of ticks and those sort of things go into this. They

    Natasha Daniels 15:54

    are related. I mean, ticks can be co occurring, can be a co occurring condition with OCD, but there is something called toretic OCD, which actually is kind of ticks and OCD combining, and it's exactly what you just described. It's having that urge, that impulse to do, to have a tick, which is kind of automatic, but then OCD kind of hijacking that and saying you have to do it until it feels just right, or you have to do, you know, putting the OCD angle into it where there's intention, because tics, in and of themselves, are typically unrelated to thoughts or feelings. They just happen in your body. Sometimes you can suppress them, or you can have therapy to kind of work with them, but they are happening automatically. And a lot of kids with OCD have tics and that come and go and are transient, touretic. OCD is something different. It's exactly what you described

    KC Davis 16:42

    well, and I know probably a lot of neurodivergent kids may perhaps that have some echo Lolly like it might look like ticks just because they're kind of repeating. I'm curious if like, and I can't recall a lot of DSM criteria like, the real difference maker is that like creates clinically significant distress. Is OCD one of those, yes,

    Natasha Daniels 17:06

    like, if you look at the side box and you're looking at the criteria, it is really based on how disruptive it is in your life and your thoughts.

    KC Davis 17:13

    So we could be seeing maybe some of these things in our kids. I'm thinking about my parents looking at me during the divorce. I'm going and, you know, the lights. But I will say that although I relate on some levels to that feeling of just right, just right, just right, it wasn't like I could suppress it and it, I can honestly say it never got to a clinically significant level of distress for me. It wasn't, you know, it was kind of annoying to suppress it, but it wasn't something that was super disruptive. And so I always think that's important to say, because I think, you know, with our kids, like we might notice some things here and there, but it doesn't necessarily mean, oh my gosh, okay, my kid has OCD. It really does, as with many, many, many of the diagnoses, like, have to do with whether that it's creating a significant distress in that child,

    Natasha Daniels 18:04

    yeah. And, you know, some of us have that genetic seed and it just doesn't fully sprout, you know? I mean, I feel like, you know, well, anxiety, OCD, mental health issues are just rampant in my family, and I remember being a little kid and my pinky toe had to, like, I had to move my pinky toe every time I was in between a driveway, or if we were on the highway and there were lights, and I don't know, and I remember, but I had this, like, pull like, I had this kind of, like, rebellious personality in my brain. I must have been like, nine. I was like, I'm so tired of my brain telling me to do this. And so I just was like, I'm not doing it anymore. And that was like, a little seed. And then instead, you know, social anxiety sprouted. It was gonna get me somewhere. But it was like, we'll try OCD first. And it was like, Nope, that didn't work. Let's just go into social anxiety. But I think, yeah, sometimes

    KC Davis 18:47

    I do think, like, what's super interesting is that when we look at genetics, I mean, when we talk about mental health, especially like depression, for a long time, there was kind of this like, Well, is it environmental depression, situational depression, or is it like the chemicals in your brain are, and we know now that, like, that's not what depression is. And I'm not saying it doesn't involve chemicals in your brain, but like, you could have, for example, a like, there are some genes that are, I just know this because I have an autistic child, like, there are certain genes gene mutations that are related to autism and epilepsy. They're Same, same gene. And if you have this genetic mutation, a lot of people with this genetic mutation have autism and epilepsy, but not everyone with the genetic mutation does, and it has to do with how that whether or not that genetic mutation expresses itself, and to what level it expresses itself. So like you know, it could be dialed up to 10, it could be dialed up to one and even so, what causes a gene to express itself, or can be even an. Environmental factor could there could be something that happens that kind of causes that expression, or amps that expression up, and I find sort of that interplay. I mean, as a therapist, I feel like I have enough of that understanding to not speak a ton on it, because I'm not a psychiatrist or a, you know, neurologist, but I do think it's helpful to be aware that, like all of those bio psychosocial things are kind of interplaying together. Because I think as a parent, you can go down that wormhole of, how did this happen? Yeah,

    Natasha Daniels 20:34

    absolutely. And I think I mean the mean, what to me? What gives me hope with mental health issues, especially since it's rampant in my family, is the idea of neuroplasticity and epigenetics, and the beautiful thing of being able to alter my brain based on my behaviors and my thoughts and the interplay between genetics and environment is so powerful, and that's why you do twin studies, and you can have two identical twins And one doesn't have OCD, or one does really well and one doesn't, because there is this interplay, which I think offers hope that just because genetically, it's rampant my family, that doesn't mean that my kids are going to be institutionalized when they're older, because we can do things.

    KC Davis 21:16

    Yeah, and when I was in rehab for drugs, one of the things they explain to us is, like, when you flood your system with basically, like synthetic dopamine and oxytocin and all this, like your transmitters, your transmitter sites in your brain, like, actually begin to shut down, because your brain wants homeostasis. And so if you flood it, it goes, Oh, we have so much of this. We don't need this many. So let's shut some ports down, basically. And the effect of that is that then when you're not and so that's what that tolerance is. So now I'm using, and I'm not really even getting high. I'm just feeling normal, okay, no pain. But the other effect of that is that when I wasn't using, nothing made me happy anymore. Nothing was exciting. I didn't look forward to anything, and that was really depressing, right? And that you want to use more, because nothing feels good. And one of the things that I was told when I was in rehab was that, and this, I'm quoting this from, you know, 20 years ago now, so don't take my word for it, but they basically told us that it takes about 18 months of not using drugs for your brain to start to reopen, those receptors to kind of like reset. And they call, it's called, like, your hedonic threshold, right? Like, how much kind of pleasure you need to get happy. And so they're like, you have to be prepared that, like, things are going to feel like they're in gray scale for the first, you know, year and a half, but it will get better, and we need some tools to get then. Luckily, I was actually just institutionalized for the entire

    Natasha Daniels 22:48

    18 months. That is nice to just be there. One

    KC Davis 22:50

    of the things that happened was they were totally right, is that they did. My brain did begin to reset. My hedonic threshold began to lower, and, in fact, it reset itself so hard that I was a happier person than I had ever been that, like small things. And it was funny because me and my friends would joke, like, we've all become so boring and lame now because, like, we do these things that everyone's like, that looks like such a boring life. And we're like, dude, but you have no idea, like, my brain lights up at a monopoly game with my friends on a Friday night, like the smallest things, and it really reset my brain, reset my personality, and I think, like, reset the trajectory of my life. And that is all just neuroplasticity. Yeah, that's

    Natasha Daniels 23:36

    crazy. It's so good. They told you that, you know, I feel like, if we can just tell people, because then you understood, like, why everything was in black and white, and why it felt that way. And there's a light at the end of the tunnel that was probably so therapeutic for you to understand the science behind what you were experiencing that's interesting

    KC Davis 23:53

    well, and I kind of actually have this theory, just from my personal and professional experience with addiction. I actually believe that addiction is a subset of OCD, and the reason that I believe that is because when, from my personal and professional experience, because a lot of people go to rehab that are using drugs, a good percentage of them don't ever come back and they quit. And a good percentage of people who use too many drugs or drink too much alcohol never even make it to rehab. They just stop. And they were indistinguishable before they stopped, from people that you know ended up having, like substance use disorders and have chronic relapsing. And what we found to be the difference between people who kind of chronically relapsed and those that didn't, was that people who chronically relapsed had a belief that this time it will be different. It's not just it's so bad I don't care. I'm going to use again, because anyone can get to that spot. We're talking about the ones whose life would be going great, and then they would relapse. And every single time, there was this belief this time it will be different. Mm. Yeah, it wasn't really that bad last time. This time, I can control it. And there was no like. It was a belief impervious to logic. You could sit there and have all their friends and family read these letters. You could show them how many times they'd been to jail. You could talk about all and they would agree with you cognitively. And then, you know, they'd tell us in private sessions like, but my brain keeps telling me to do it anyways and that it'll probably be fine. And it was like, that is an obsession. They It was literally a mental obsession that if we could not figure out how to get the mental obsession to go away, it wouldn't matter how much sobriety they had, and I began to think of it that way, like this is a mental obsession about your ability to use drugs like other people, and your ability to moderate with a compulsion that you then go use and for whatever reason, like you are not able to moderate like other people. And that really changed the way that that we in the places that I worked at, like that we approached addiction treatment, yeah, which makes sense, which is kind of funny, that, like, I escaped the vocal tics, and then it was like, Yeah, but I think, like, like, there must have been a little, just a little dabble there.

    Natasha Daniels 26:15

    And I know there has been research on addiction and OCD and the overlap. And I'm not a neuroscientist, but I like to nerd out on it, and this same part of the brain, you know, addiction and OCD. So that's not surprising to me. I feel like, hopefully it

    KC Davis 26:30

    is also not that strange, because, like, only recently did we pull hoarding out as a separate diagnosis from OCD, yep. So like the idea that, you know, an obsession and a compulsion can pair with like those like, a behavior that isn't as kind of my like, as repetitive as like, exactly the same motion every time, and it's similar. Like, you will get somebody with hoarding disorder, and it's like, but I might use this right? And you can sit there and show them, but you've never used anything you have, but look at your house, but wouldn't it be but, and you will logic with them all day long, right? And there's a part of their brain that goes, I recognize this is reasonable, but it just never can get to that, like deep seated belief, place that drives their actions.

    Natasha Daniels 27:13

    Yes, that makes sense. Anyways, I know

    KC Davis 27:17

    that's kind of a tangent, but I just, I've always thought that addiction really should be looked at as a part of obsessive compulsive disorder. You know, we kind of talked a little bit about, you know, how OCD needs different interventions, and you mentioned a couple of those. But I'm also wondering, as a parent, you know, I feel like when it comes to anxiety in general, and we can make kind of, like, two opposite mistakes. And I think our generation grew up with parents that were very like, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and can't swim, throw you in the deep end. And who cares about your feelings. You know, like, this is silly to be scared of. Get on the bus. Like, quit doing that like. And so obviously that kind of, like running roughshod and being dismissive or even just being really punitive, like, didn't work. And so I'm of the generation where we're trying to do something different. But what I watch a lot of my generation do, and what I have found myself doing, is that I feel like sometimes I go too far in the opposite direction where I'm like, I mean, I hesitate to say coddling, because I'm not. It's not like, Oh, I'm too afraid. Like, I want to spoil my kids. It's more like, okay, honey. Like, we'll just wait with you, and we'll wait till you feel like doing it right. While the doctor's like, we have to give her the shot. She's never going to be ready for the shot. You just have to hold her down. I'm like, but like, but bodily autonomy. And here's what I noticed. It's funny, I mentioned the shot because that is what happened. It's really important to me to always tell my kids, yes, we're getting shots. I don't want you anxious about every doctor's appointment, because I spring it on you in the last moment. Exactly, yeah. And the first few times that they were old enough and they were, you know, my daughter would say, like, wait, wait, wait, I'm not ready. I'd be like, Stop, everyone. Stop. We will wait until she is ready, because I wanted her to have that feeling. I've been in medical procedures where they kind of overtake her autonomy. It was not good, but what I noticed was that it seemed to make it worse. I watched the fear grow bigger and bigger and bigger as she sat there, going, Okay, I'm not ready. Okay, right? And now we're almost in full blown panic. And I thought, Okay, I need to rethink this. Because, yes, I want her to, you know, I guess I have these values of bodily autonomy and of you feeling in control and consent, but at the same time, like, at what point is it my job as a parent to go, Okay, I love you. We're gonna get a shot. Now. I know it's scary, and I know you don't want it. I'm gonna hold your body on the count of three so that they can give it to you and that it'll be done. And she's going no, and I'm going one, two, and then her distress is like, four. 30 seconds, and then she's totally fine afterwards. And I guess the point of this big, long story, right? Is I feel like I waffle back and forth, right? I go from just figure it out, like, kind of, you know, which doesn't make it, it makes it worse, right? When I'm pushing really hard and I'm getting frustrated at whatever anxious thing they're in. But I also feel like sometimes I do too much of the like, well, we'll wait till you're ready. Okay, do you want to do it now, honey? Okay, what will make you feel better? And it's like that that also seems to grow the anxiety.

    Natasha Daniels 30:28

    Yeah, I 100% agree. I feel like there is this sweet spot that that we have to practice on a daily basis. You know, sometimes we swing too far to the left then too far to the right. And I know as a parent, I'm always trying to find that that sweet spot where anxious, the fuel to anxiety, is avoidance. And I think once we recognize that, we don't want to contribute to that fuel line, right? I mean, like anxiety is a fire, and it can't grow massively if it's not being fed avoidance on a daily basis, and so we can inadvertently partner with anxiety by facilitating avoidance to an extreme degree. And so it's always finding that sweet spot of, I don't want to push my kids off a cliff, but I want to encourage them to look over the cliff and see, oh, actually, there's a little bit of a ledge, and you can jump down, and then you can jump down again, and you don't have to fall off the cliff. You can actually climb down the cliff, but how do I get them to the edge so they can see that or that they have a parachute, and they can actually parasite whatever that's called. And so I know I messed that word up, but it's like finding that sweet spot. And but the shots is a great example, because everybody can relate to that, because a lot of kids are anxious about that, and I totally resonate with that too, because both my kids have had to have a lot of blood work in general, because one has celiac, one had Hashimotos and so and very phobic. But it's a good example, because it has to be done, just like our kids do have to have some sort of education, they do have to sleep, they do have to eat, right? These are things that anxiety impacts, and if we just give them their own agency to the point where we don't offer opportunities to practice being brave, we're robbing them of that experience. My mom, you know, she just threw me off the cliff. I would be throwing up in the back seat of a station wagon, and she'd be like, okay, here, take a napkin and then get get to first period. There was no talking about it, or like, you have anxiety. Let's talk about there was none of that that's extreme or being punitive, right? And like, my mom would, like, push me and say, like, you have to get up there and go do that. And it was like, I was afraid of her hitting me, and so I would do it. But that wasn't really therapeutic. So with my kids, it is, it's doing what you said, like exploring it. What's the scariest part of and it's interesting, because I had assumed because one has a fear of shots and the other one has a fear of blood work. And so I took them aside privately, and this was at different stages of development as well. Like, What's the scariest part about getting your blood taken? You know, for my son, it's being poked. And he actually had even, like OCD themes around being poked, like, we live in Arizona. He's afraid of the cacti. He was afraid of, like people poking his stomach. So he'd always hold his belly button. It got very compulsive. So I knew, Okay, it's the idea of being poked or stung. He was, like, terrified of anything that can sting him. It was all very related, but with my daughter, she was mainly afraid of getting her blood taken. And when I process What's the scariest part about getting your blood taken? I thought, because I'm afraid of getting my blood taken, I don't like the needle going my vein. That grosses me out. She's said, I don't like when they put that rubber band on my arm, I feel like my arm's gonna fall off. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. I would have never thought that that's the problem. And so, like, we did exposures. I bought a rubber band, you know, and we practiced the tightness. I actually advocated for her when she would get her blood taken, I'd say, please take the band off as soon as you can. That part bothers her, and so she was more in control. Did she get to have a pass and not have her blood taken? No, right? Because that's not an option. Did we get a lab to come to our house? Yes, because she throws up every time. So we accommodate on some level, but walk them through that with my son. This is going to sound really weird. We did exposures on poking, you know. I actually got a paper clip with his buy in. He earned prizes, and I would lightly poke him super light with a paper clip, which sounds bizarre, I know, and we're like, this is poking, you know. And that was like a 10 for him for a while, but I got to the point where he can get a shot, and it was like no big deal, because he kind of exposed himself to what that experience was.

    KC Davis 34:28

    I think this you said two words that I feel like are the answer for my generation and everyone else, is exposure and accommodation. Because I feel like, you know, I always have the saying of like, it's not our job to be the parent that we needed as a child. It's our job to be the parents that our children need. And so it's difficult if your parents never accommodated you and everything was in their mind, exposure. I'm quoting that right, because that's not true. Therapeutic exposure, but this kind of suck it up, no pain, no gain, figure it out. Stuff, your feelings, you know, whatever, whatever, Don't be weak and get over yourself. It's all in your head. We sometimes, I think as parents, react to that, and we feel as though any type of pushing our kids or exposure is going to be, like, really traumatic or really wrong, and so and we don't want to expose, we want to accommodate. And I think what you said is so beautiful, because it is the marriage of both. It is, I mean, you just named so many accommodations that you did, but there was also exposure. And you know what's funny, I wanted also share with you something similar about figuring out around shots, like what you assume, what the problem is, right? So both my kids hate shots, and when we went to get when the COVID vaccine finally came out, and I have one of my children is autistic, and you know, it was really hard for her, and we had to hold her down every time and give her the shot, and it was screaming. And so we go to get our COVID shot. Now, in those early days, right? You were going to, like the hospital, and they were fering you through the line, and they were doing adults and children. So when we get there, it's a seat in an auditorium next to a desk, and I've got one at this one, and I'm with the other one, and I'm about to say to the lady at the desk, and they're there going so fast, right? I'm about to warn her, like my daughter's autistic. She doesn't like shots. This woman turns around, goes right into her thigh, and she looks down at it and looks up at me. Literally did not flinch. She did not care. She did not flinch. And you know what? We realized she doesn't like to be held down. She was not screaming because of the shot. She was screaming because she did not know what was happening, and she did not like it when everyone was putting pressure on her limbs and on her body. And for, of course, for my other daughter, it's the opposite, right? It is the shot itself, like she you kind of have to help her stabilize her body, or she'll move around and hurt herself. And I just thought that was so interesting, what you mentioned. But So talk to me a little bit more about this idea of accommodating and exposing. And I wanted to kind of tie it back to what you said at the beginning, which is, like, how we need to do that differently for OCD than just other types of anxiety, yeah,

    Natasha Daniels 37:10

    and that is also a really great question, because I think that accommodation in the OCD world is like a four letter word. They're like, accommodate. It's the person we remove is accommodation. And I feel like that word is used differently in different communities. And so it has a different meaning. When we talk about OCD accommodations, we're talking about really participating in the compulsion. And I wish that we'd use a different language, because I think it does confuse parents who are navigating multiple worlds, the autistic world and the OCD world, because the accommodations used in a different way. Yeah, accommodations

    KC Davis 37:42

    means supports for independence or for whatever it almost seems more similar to, like to borrow a word from the addiction industry is enabling.

    Natasha Daniels 37:51

    Yeah, although enabling has a bad connotation too it

    KC Davis 37:56

    does. But I mean, when in the OCD world, when they say, don't accommodate the obsession. I wonder if what they mean is closer to the definition of when we say an addiction, like, don't enable the addiction. Yes, because we're not saying don't support them, don't accommodate them. We're also not saying like, you know, like, if I have a friend that's new in sobriety and I know how they feel around alcohol, I'm not gonna have alcohol at a party like that. Is accommodating, yeah, but we distinguish that in the addiction world from, oh, my friend, you know it needs money. And I know that if I give them money, they're probably gonna, you know, go use it to use and, but I'm too scared to say, yeah, so I'm gonna, but I don't want to be mad, and I just maybe, if I give it to them, right? Like, that's the enabling aspect of it. So it sounds like in the OCD world, when y'all say, don't accommodate it. You talk more about enabling it, as you said, like participating in it. Yes, that's

    Natasha Daniels 38:46

    a word I'm going to use then, because I feel like when I use the word accommodation, I upset the autistic world. But then the OCD world's clueless. Most of them are clueless to how those are, and I'm trying to educate people in the OCD world, like, don't use the word accommodate. People are getting upset about that in other areas. But what it means with OCD is you can easily enable, we use the award accommodation, even to the point where, like, you know, there's a therapy modality that talks about removing accommodation. We're not talking about removing support. So if your child has OCD most of the time, it's a family affair, and so OCD might boss the family around, like Don't say that word, or you can't sit there, or you have to wash your hands here, or everyone has to take their clothes off before they enter the house, or can't come into my room because you're contaminated. And we follow these rules that's enabling the OCD, and so that never helps. It doesn't happen overnight. And so to pull those back is takes time, and there's therapy modalities that help you pull those back over time, but the accommodation, and when we're talking about OCD or anxiety, there might be your child really can't function at school because they have to share, you know, joint supplies or whatever, and it's a decision of either they don't go to school at all, or I have to find some accommodations in the. School environment where they're not triggered, so they can get an education while we work on it, or when we're talking about anxiety, like, what is going to make my child comfortable while they're moving towards doing break things? Can my child get their blood test at home? Yes, that's an accommodation. Can they do certain things that will help them feel better and have autonomy while doing still scary, big things, because sometimes it's too big of a step to do something without those supports. Well,

    KC Davis 40:29

    and really what we're talking about in any world, whether it's addiction or OCD or autism, ADHD, is just scaffolding. Yeah, like, we want an appropriate scaffolding, and that's going to be different for each kid, because there are going to be especially when you get into like the and we would consider OCD a type of neuro divergence, but when you get into like the autism, ADHD, kind of duo, some people are going to need accommodations for the rest of their life. And so it's not that the goal is to scaffold every single person into complete independence, never needing accommodation. But we don't want to make the opposite mistake of, okay, we'll just cocoon this person to this serious degree for the rest of their life. A good example that comes up even with autism and ADHD is sensory sensitivities, especially sound. So a lot of kids with autism and ADHD are really sensitive to sound, and so you know, you have, like, your one accommodation for that is, like noise canceling headphones. One of the things from a pure, like audiologist perspective, is that the more you use noise canceling headphones, the more sensitive your hearing can become. So you kind of have to play this dance of, okay, well, for a lot of kids, you can't just not give them headphones because, oh, it'll make it worse. Because worse than what, they're already melting down. They already can't function at school. They're already in so much distress, and they don't have the skills to deal with that. But at the same time, we also don't want the answer to be okay, you know, we'll just wear these 24/7 unless it is to that. Like there might be a kid where there will be no scaffolding away from that, but there will be a lot of kids where we can scaffold in such a way that there are instances where we can use it where we need help, and there are instances where we are targeted in this is what we're working on via exposure and obviously doing that with a team. But I think that idea of scaffolding supports yeah is kind of what you're talking about, yeah.

    Natasha Daniels 42:35

    And I do have a really good example of that as well, just to show like, where we can inadvertently harm our kids or set them back versus encourage them. This is what I was arguing about with my 15 year old son last night. He like one of his predominant I think OCD issues is that he gets songs stuck in his head. And so with OCD, you can get songs stuck in your head. You can get images stuck in your head, not just intrusive thoughts or feelings, and to the point where he would melt down. He would not let us play like the music on the radio. His sister can't sing like nobody can hum like dominating the environment. And then when he got diagnosed with ADHD, he's like, Mom, you were wrong the whole time. It's my ADHD. Like,

    KC Davis 43:16

    I think I was like, most people with ADHD

    Natasha Daniels 43:19

    aren't getting like, they're not getting compulsive with having a song stuck in their head. It might be, you know, that it might happen, it might be distracting, but they're not getting distressed the way you are, like you would have a full on meltdown at the airport because he has a song stuck in his head. And so I said the volume button is probably higher because of your ADHD, and it's probably more distracting, but the idea that you're having it, it's getting stuck. And so what we have done is like you you can if you want to block the sound and you want to wear headphones or you want to put your air pods on, that's fine. You get to control what you want to do with that, but you're not going to control the environment. We're not going to turn the radio off, but we had to do it really slowly, because there'd be mornings that he's melting down and he can't go to school for all sorts of other anxiety OCD issues. I wasn't gonna put the radio on and just like, you know, push him off a cliff. I was like, we're gonna be quiet. He's not okay right now. But, you know, last night, I think he wanted this, like, global rule in our house again, that no one's gonna be allowed to sing. And I was like, that seems very compulsive to me, and we're not. I said, you know you're gonna have roommates, you're gonna have you know at your employment, you're gonna go to college. People are gonna be singing, they're gonna be playing the radio, and I will be doing you a disservice if, if I coddle you, or maybe I didn't use the word coddle, but if I cocoon you and have you live in a bubble where you have no exposure to this, what is that gonna be like when you grow up? We kind of agreed to disagree last night, but is it to be continued? But that's an example.

    KC Davis 44:44

    It's a great example also, because it also shows the what can be hard as a parent, especially if you grew up with a disability, which is that everyone always told you that everything was your fault, and so we can sometimes feel very guilty. But. By telling our child like, Hey, you're being inconsiderate. I know it's coming from your disability. I know that it's but you don't get to kind of hold the, you know, room hostage or whatever. And we feel that inner child wound, you know. And I always like to say, like, everything is emotional context. And telling a child, you know, hey, we can't just always turn the radio off. The saying that in a way that is attuned and kind and empathetic, and in a context where you are looking for appropriate accommodations and you do care about their sensory experiences and their challenges that is not going to be the same emotional context than your as your parent, who did not look for appropriate accommodations, did not take your disability seriously, was very dismissive, and said we're not turning the radio down just because your ears hurt. And I think that's kind of what we have to do our own healing to get to the place where we're willing to recognize like I have to teach my kids, and I do have to recognize which of these aspects of their disability might be lifelong and might be pretty intense, regardless of how much intervention, but also not let go of my responsibility as a parent to teach my kids about you Know, I want them to self advocate for themselves, and I want them to feel validity in their neuro divergence and their differences, and I want them to feel responsible for being a good citizen in society and believing that other people's needs in the environment are just as valid as theirs. And I think that's it, right? It's like your needs aren't less valid than everybody else, but they're not more valid than everybody else. Like, I want to, I want kids that believe that their needs are just as valid as everyone else's, even if their needs are different, you know, so that they can sort of take this process on, like for themselves. Once they're out of my house where they're they know how to think about, okay, how do I get my needs met? And when do I recognize, like, how I can do that in a way that still respects everybody else's needs and is kind of reasonable both ways?

    Natasha Daniels 47:10

    Exactly? Yeah, definitely. Let

    KC Davis 47:12

    me ask one more question as we close. We talked a little bit in our pre interview about kind of our responsibility as parents to right size our kids feelings, you know? And I think this is really true. Like our anxiety will feed our kids anxiety, right? And we kind of recognize this, like you we realize early, like sometimes our kids fall and they look at us, and if we go, oh my god, like they kind of do the same thing, right? And so while I don't want to be dismissive at the same time, I don't want to be kind of overly dramatic. I don't want my anxiety to be contagious. And so I'm curious if you have any sort of, like, ending thoughts on how, as a parent, can we best, like, right size our kids feelings and not participate in kind of the overblownness or the drama of it while not being dismissive.

    Natasha Daniels 48:02

    Yeah. I mean, I often talk about being a lovingly detached anchor, like, That's my ultimate goal, is to be to be supportive of my kids struggles in the moment without having smudges on my lens that are, that's my stuff, which is a lot of what we talked about today. You know, a smudge might be, oh, you're just like my dad. Or a smudge might be, oh my gosh, you're not gonna be able to function in college. So I might be living in the what ifs instead of the what is. Or I might be in my smudge might be, I'm gonna be late for work again, and I can't keep having this or this smudge might be, my parent didn't listen to me in this moment, and so I'm gonna be over identified. Or a smudge might be. I'm so empathetic or an empath, that your pain is my pain, and I'm feeling it. So as a parent, learn how to identify your smudges. We all have them. There's no way we have a clear lens when we're looking at our child in having a struggle, but being able to identify them separate out. What is my stuff versus their stuff? And then the thing I always ask myself as a parent, is, what do they need from me right now? You know? And that really helps put me back in the moment. It kind of grounds me. Sometimes I literally do grounding stuff, like let me feel my feet on the carpet, or let me feel my breath, or let me smell something. So I'm like, out of my head and more into my body. And then I just say, What's my role right now? What do they need for me and I get into my coaching, you know they need me to not be emotional, or they need me to just reflect back to them that this is hard for them right now, but I think that can help us anchor ourselves and be there for them with more intention than reaction.

    KC Davis 49:36

    I love that you use the word coaching, because I think we can learn a lot as parents from watching coaches, because there are good coaches and bad coaches. And bad coaches are not just the ones that are super gruff, super mean, super pushing, super challenging, not listening to having kids run exercises till they faint in the heat, but also you've. Bad coaches that are so concerned with everyone's just gonna have a good time that like they never win a game. And so I think when we when I think of like the good coaches my kids have been with, I have had coaches say to my kids, there's no crying in the pool. But that's also the coach that celebrates so much with them with their wins. It's also the coach that goes home and thinks about, how best can I accommodate, you know, my one kid's fear of water, and maybe let's try this, or let's try this, or let's try this. And yet, they have that balance of, I'm listening, I care, but also I have what you the perfect wording, right? Which is this kind of, like, detachment, where, like, I don't have to own your feelings. I'm separate from your feelings, and I have so much confidence in your ability to handle your feelings that I don't need to participate in your feelings. Yeah,

    Natasha Daniels 50:52

    which is really comforting for kids who are overwhelmed that we're an anchor and that we kind of reflect that, and we might have to do our own inner work to get that, and that's a daily practice, honestly, but it's a gift that we can give our kids.

    KC Davis 51:05

    Well, Natasha Daniels, you have been a delight. Can you give us any resources? Tell us about like, Where can we find your stuff or anything about you? And then, what would you recommend to kids, to parents who are thinking that maybe they're seeing some OCD in their kids?

    Natasha Daniels 51:18

    Well, you can find my work at at parenting survival.com, I have a podcast. I have YouTube videos for kids, teens and young adults, and courses and a community, so all sorts of stuff that you'll find over there. I have a OCD workbook for kids, eight to 12 that just came out, crushing OCD workbook for kids. And you know if you're concerned or you're like, I don't know if my child has OCD or just listening to this conversation. Now I'm not sure if it's anxiety or OCD. You can always get like a an assessment. I always you talk about no CD just because they are virtual and they're all over the world. So treat my ocd.com also a really good resource is the International OCD foundation@iocdf.org

    KC Davis 51:59

    Awesome. Thank you so much. Natasha,

    Natasha Daniels 52:01

    yeah, thanks for having me. You.

Christy Haussler
117: Private Infant Adoption: Altruistic Act or Human Trafficking?

Today’s topic of adoption is a sensitive subject for many people. We are covering adoption from a different perspective as we talk to Stacy, an adult adoptee who belongs to a community of adult adoptees who are vehemently opposed to private infant adoption. Join us to learn more!

Show Highlights:

  • Meet Stacy and learn her story

  • An overview of differing views of adoption through the years (Are new laws needed?)

  • Examples of laws that are drawing negative feedback from adult adoptees

  • The expense of private infant adoption and the ethical dilemma of a more systemic problem

  • The ratio of parents looking to adopt and available infants

  • A closer look at adoption theology and open adoption

  • The US system that contributes to the number of desperate pregnant women and creates the perfect storm for exploitation, pressure, and propaganda

  • What adopted kids need to know

  • The adoption industry needs a different approach.

  • The nuances of adoption out of foster care

  • For many people, adoption into a “nice” family was/is a fantasy. 

  • Stacy’s viewpoint on what to say–and what NOT to say–to adult adoptees

  • Stacy’s message to adult adoptees

Resources and Links:

Connect with Stacy: TikTok

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:00

    Music. Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. It is KC Davis, your host. Welcome to Struggle Care. And we're going to talk today about something that is a bit of a sensitive subject for a lot of people. And we're going to talk about it from a perspective that you may not have heard before. I'm here in the studio with Stacy rebec, and we're going to talk about adoption. So Stacy, you are an adult adoptee, meaning you were adopted by your parents. And before we get started, tell me a little bit about yourself. So what do you do? And you know all that good stuff? Sure. So

    Stacy 0:32

    I'll probably limit it for my job, saying that I work for our state's court system in the IT sector, and I live in Topeka, Kansas. I'm 41 years old. Both my younger sister and I were adopted through domestic infant adoption to my parents. My mom also had relinquished a child at age when she got pregnant at 17 and relinquished a child at 18 before going on to adopt us later on. So we have lots of experience in our family. Yeah.

    KC Davis 0:59

    So you know, when I was growing up adoption, there was this very clear picture of adoption. It was like this very altruistic thing to do, and particularly if it was like an overseas adoption, right? Like, Oh, I'm getting a child from a country where they wouldn't grow up with anything, and I'm bringing them over here and saving them. And then the other sort of picture that I grew up with adoption is that it is this like fulfillment of all hopeful wishes for maybe parents that are experiencing infertility, and then I had some time in the evangelical church before I deconstructed, and they were huge about adoption, and so It was sort of like, partially a story about how much we need to save kids, and then, like, partially a story about, like, how much everyone deserves to have a kid. And so I was really, I don't know what the word is. I wouldn't say blindsided. That's too strong. But like, I had no idea about a year and a half ago when I stumbled upon a whole community of adoptees that are vehemently against private infant adoption. So let's just start there. Stacy, you know, tell me maybe a little bit about what you're kind of where you're at. And can you tell us anything about this community of adoptees?

    Stacy 2:17

    Sure. So there's a really great community, especially like on Tiktok, that I've interacted with, and there are kind of distinct segments within the community. There are adoptees that are from international and trans racial adoption, there are adoptees that came out of foster care, and then there's domestic infant adoption adoptees. And those worlds are similar, but they are very different in sometimes outlook and what methods they want to see changed in the adoption system. And that's great, like we can have productive conversations about that. And I specifically, I'll give an overview of some of the other ones, but I don't want to speak for anybody that is from foster care adoption or transracial or international adoption, because that is absolutely not my lane to speak in. But I'll give kind of an overview of a lot of the discussion is talking about the need for either Abolishment, in some cases, or at least a reckoning and read reorganization of laws to better help adoptees. A lot of the laws in place are really centered on adoptive parents and what is the best for them and what they want, which is understandable. You know, a lot of people that make the laws are adults who perhaps would like to adopt a child, and that's kind of where that has come from. And we really want to make it more child and adoptee focused in those respects. There is some disagreement about abolition versus not sure what the best word to use is, like reorganization

    KC Davis 3:46

    or like restructuring or reconstruction? Yeah, restructuring

    Stacy 3:50

    is probably the best way to think about it. I lean on the side of restructuring, specifically for domestic infant adoption. I think there are some really good arguments for Abolishment In other instances, but again, that's kind of outside of my lane to give my viewpoint on. Especially I do think for domestic infant adoption, restructuring of laws is really necessary. I will say I do live in Kansas, where we have one of the best set of laws for adoptees. You can get your pre adoption birth certificate fairly easily here, but that is a rarity among the states.

    KC Davis 4:24

    So you mentioned that because I was going to ask you know, you said that part of the problem is that a lot of the laws regarding adoption are geared towards what parents want, not what children maybe deserve or have a right to. So can you give us some examples of those laws that adoptees and adoptee advocates are not happy with, sure.

    Stacy 4:46

    So in some states, your records are sealed forever. You can try to petition the court to unseal your records in a certain in your certain case, but that is highly unlikely in some areas. Which means that you cannot easily find your biological family, which means you have a higher chance of not being able to catch like genetic illnesses and things that could be passed on. You don't necessarily have those risk factors that you can rely on. You could, in my instance, even though I had one in Kansas, and I found my family, Ma, I had a younger brother who is five years younger that litter up in the same city than me, and that's putting you at risk at procreating with somebody that you are siblings with, and that is very unfortunate. So having access to those records and your health records is vitally important for most adoptees, and in some states, you cannot access them at all. The best chance you have is doing a DNA test and by luck, connecting with somebody. So

    KC Davis 5:47

    one of the other, like kind of big paradigm shifts that I had when I was listening to adoptees, is also hearing birth mothers. And I apologize, I don't know if that's like the term that people prefer, or if there's a different term, I don't

    Stacy 6:02

    know for sure. I know my mother, who did again, give up a child, calls herself a birth mother, so in reference to her, specifically, we can say that. I don't know. I know biological parents. Some people really prefer to just say parents, but I think it's very individual at this point of what families

    KC Davis 6:19

    prefer. Well, for clarity sake, I'll say birth parent, but I've seen a lot of birth parents talk about how they regret their decision, and how at the time, their decision to put their child, their baby, up for adoption, was a decision in worst case scenarios. It was a decision of duress, where they were really pressured by private adoption agencies. And then kind of, some of the, you know, medium case scenarios, it was a decision made out of desperation, because of circumstances. And then, you know, maybe five years later, they find themselves in different circumstances, and they're going, why did those people convince me that this is what was best? Because, sure, at the time, I, you know, maybe didn't have somewhere to live, or I didn't have a good job, or, you know, I was on the outs with the Father, whatever. But, you know, five years later, and now, a lot of those circumstances have changed, and I don't have any access to this child anymore. And I don't think I had ever really heard, I mean, birth parents are hailed as simultaneously, this beacon of bravery, but also they're kind of like an NPC, like Silent character that you never hear from again.

    Stacy 7:29

    And I know things have slightly changed since my mother's story, but my mom got pregnant, and I will say I have her permission to share this. I specifically asked her beforehand if I could share pieces of her story. So I'm not talking without asking, but she got pregnant at 17 in 1963 while still in high school, and she had her daughter at 18, but she had to pretend that she wasn't pregnant during high school, she graduated, I think, like four or five months pregnant. Nobody knew. And then right after that, her parents drove her to another city, like she didn't really have an A stay in it, other than like, I'm not marrying that guy. Like that was her say. It was like, I'm not getting married. Just picked her up, drove her to stay with a family in another city so that nobody could see that she was pregnant. She had her baby. She didn't get to see the baby, although I guess her mother did, which is nice. She got to see baby before she was placed on for adoption, and then just came home and had to act like nothing happened. And so she we've had discussions about how it was a choice, but it wasn't really a choice. You can talk about people having a choice. And this, by the way, this predates roe by a decade, so that was really not an option at all. The choice was either you marry this guy. The choices she thought was, you marry this guy, or you put the baby up for adoption. And she knew there was absolutely no way she was going to marry this person, so she put the baby up for adoption. And that's not really a choice. When you look at it, right? There's not in that mindset. There isn't a choice. And I think nowadays, it still happens where people get convinced that, you know, you can't raise your baby like, what are you thinking of? You're young, you're poor, you're whatever. Here's this nice family, like they can provide so much more for them. And, you know, it's kind of crazy, because a lot of times families that I have seen, and I know this is not the case around the board, but families who adopt will get so much help from their church or their their community, they will be provided with diapers and clothes and all these kind of resources that maybe a young, poor mother wouldn't have and it makes you wonder if they were provided with those resources like perhaps they may not make that same decision.

    KC Davis 9:53

    That was one of the more eye opening things to me, was when people talked about how expensive it is for. Private infant adoption. And how okay, this family will go fundraise, and they'll get 1000s and 1000s, I'm talking, you know, 13,000 20,000 30,000 $50,000 and like you said, the church will have this huge baby shower and give them all of these things, and someone will give them a crib and, uh huh. And it was like, okay, but now we have this pregnant woman who the only reason she's making the decision to give up this baby is because she doesn't have access to those things, and yet, everybody can give it to this other couple. Like, why can't we just give it to this mother? And I know it's not that simple. Like, you're not no one's gonna require a private citizen to fork over 20 grand to, you know, a stranger that's pregnant, but just from a systemic view, it does sort of make you scratch your head like, you know, it's not always, or it doesn't even seem often someone being like, you know, what? I don't want children. That's not what I want ever, no matter the circumstances. And so I am gonna, you know, give my baby. It's like I do. I would want this baby if circumstances were different, and circumstances get moved for the people that want to take the baby, not for the mom that is actually having the baby?

    Stacy 11:12

    Yeah? And that's equity. There's a huge discrepancy in equity between the two situations, right? And I do think there are some scenarios I know for my adoption, and I have not met my biological parents. They did not choose, they did not want contact, and that's fine, but I know from research that my biological mother was very Catholic, and so when she got pregnant, she absolutely did not want another child at that point in time, but she didn't feel like she had other options either, because abortion was completely off the table for somebody that was very, very Catholic. And so I know that I was not a wanted child, as in, like, I want to keep this child. So that does happen. But again, it's not really like we can talk about choices. When you grow up with a lot of in some cultures, you don't the choice is not quite the same. I guess it's a nicer way of putting it,

    KC Davis 12:06

    which kind of brings me to, like, the next point that I learned that I'm wondering if you can speak to for a minute, because let's say that so it's not the majority that are in that spot right. The majority are making this decision out of desperation, circumstances, things like that. And if you were to only think about how many infants are available to be adopted by mothers who are saying, You know what? This is not desperation. This is not circumstance. I just I don't want to be a parent to this child, to another child. What would you say? Like, what's the percentage or like, the comparison of like parents who want to adopt an infant and available infants?

    Stacy 12:51

    There are more parents that want to adopt by a long shot than available infants. And I think when we talk about that, we kind of have to talk about adoption theology, because the pool of parents that want to adopt is not just parents that are struggling with infertility or anything like that, because adoption theology, especially, I think, since the 80s and 90s, has risen in popularity. You have a lot of parents that want to adopt because they think it is the good thing to do.

    KC Davis 13:25

    Because the picture is, here's this mother who, you know, doesn't want this baby or can't take care of this baby, and so you're the good person stepping in to take on somebody else's baby and make it yours.

    Stacy 13:37

    Yes, and they think it's a good thing to do. And some of these parents do adopt from foster care, and perhaps adopt children whose rights have already been terminated, and some of them don't. Some of them turn to either international adoption or pursue domestic adoption, or sometimes will sign up as foster parents for infants hoping to adopt, which I find problematic, which

    KC Davis 14:02

    is a whole other can of worms. And I do want to get into that. And what's interesting, though, that you can bring that up, is that every time I have listened to adoptees or adoption advocates talk about these things we're talking about, where they say, Hey, a lot of this is out of desperation. Hey, a lot of this, you know, whatever, somebody always brings up foster care, and that's a different conversation, right? Like, that's a different conversation, and there's still issues there, and we can talk about those. One of the other things that I thought of, too, is when I've heard a lot of birth mothers talk about, you know, I was made a lot of promises by these adoptive parents about how I would be involved in this child's life, and they would know me, and that's why I agreed to this. And then we come to find out that, like, that's not in the contract, that's not enforceable, that's just a thing, a nice thing. They said that after the rights are. Are formally handed over to the adoptive parents. We have a lot, and not not all of them, not every one of them, but we have, you know, a lot of people saying, and then they said they changed their mind, and I have not spoken to them since, and I have not heard from them since, and I have no right to be in this child's life. Yeah, open adoption is problematic in the United States, especially because our laws like and that, as far as I know, this is across the board for all states, the concept of open adoption is there, but there are not specific laws to ensure that that happens, right? So you can write it in. So it's open adoption, a legal type of adoption, or is it just an there's one type of adoption. And then there's like, whether you're doing a nice handshake on the side to say, we'll keep in touch.

    Stacy 15:45

    Yeah, it's like that. So it's just really just adoption, and that some contract can be written so that you say you want to give biological parents some input, or what have you. But in most cases, that's really not enforceable. And again, I'm not an attorney, so I can't speak to the intricacies, but I know that that is not enforceable in the majority of cases, especially for domestic infant adoption. And I don't want to say that a lot of parents are going and using that as a manipulation tactic, necessarily. Yeah, I think in a lot of instances, they really think that that's something that they want to do, and then when you have the child in your arms, you realize, like, oh, I don't actually want to share this with anybody. And that is not great, because that means that they didn't really put in the work ahead of time to realize what it meant,

    KC Davis 16:39

    right? Like, it's almost like not informed consent on the I do think some people

    Stacy 16:44

    do use that specifically as a manipulation tactic to try to force their arms. And that happens, and it's gross

    KC Davis 16:51

    so, and it makes sense to me, you know, if we have desperate, well, listen, we can't even get into how our country, here in the US is set up to create desperate pregnant women. We're rolling back reproductive rights. We don't have universal health care or universal paid maternity leave, and so we have this system that kind of uniquely puts women in a situation of desperation. And one of the other things that I think really opened my eyes, and I don't know what I thought before, like that adopt, that there's like an adoption ferry, that there's like an altruistic wing of the government, like, like, oh, you know, oh, it's a nonprofit, so it must be not. But like, adoption agencies are businesses, and they need to make money and turn a profit, and like any business in a capitalistic society, they have a problem of more demand than supply, and I'm not saying that that's I phrased that wrong, but like their response would be, like any business in a capitalistic society facing more demand than supply is we have to figure out how to get more supply. And it just seems like it's the perfect storm for exploitation, for pressuring and for propaganda and for, you know, like they literally have their own financial interests in mind when they're talking to a very vulnerable woman in a very vulnerable state trying to make one of the biggest decisions of their life, which just seems a little icky. Yeah,

    Stacy 18:19

    it is very icky. I've had my own run ins with some of the crisis pregnancy centers in town and people who work for them, and it is just so highly unethical that that they are kind of they work hand in hand with generally religious adoption groups, although I guess not necessarily all the time. I can't say that, but to kind of funnel women in who are perhaps looking to get an abortion or something else into instead supplying them with an infant. And

    KC Davis 18:50

    I mean, I'm gonna say something, and I know, listen, and I know that it is gonna be a triggering phrase for a lot of adoptive parents out there, but like, we're getting pretty close to human trafficking.

    Stacy 18:59

    Yeah, I definitely think in some scenarios that that is probably a good word for it. And I think domestically, that's probably more of a like a Ooh. Do we want to use that word? But in some cases, when you go, when you are going to a place where you think you're going to get health care, and instead, you are funneled by a religious group into changing your decision, or maybe solidifying your decision in a way where you weren't quite sure beforehand, who's telling you, perhaps inaccurate information about how your life will be afterwards. In regards to this child, I don't know of a better word for it, so

    KC Davis 19:38

    that they can take possession of that human being and then literally sell it. Uh huh, yeah. Okay, so now that we've offended and upset a lot of adoptive parents out there and perhaps adoptees that really love their families, let's take a step back and then kind of circle back and touch on some of those feelings that other people might be having, that maybe had a different experiences or adopted. Parents. You know, what is that like for adoptive parents to hear that kind of perspective? What has been your interaction with adoptive parents? Like, give us a little splash of cold water to the face, because it feels like we've got a little intense Yeah. So

    Stacy 20:16

    I have met a few people my age who have adopted children, and they've actually that I thought pretty open that I'm an adoptee and what my story is. And my mom and I talk to people about it, and they're like, Well, I'm adopting a child, and not necessarily even infant adoption, but like, what should I do? I want to make sure my child grows up fairly well adjusted, you know? What can I do? And when I tell them, like, Okay, well, you have to one. They have to know, grow up knowing that they're adopt, not something you can either spring on them or hide from them, which I grew up knowing I was adopted. My mom was very intentional with that, so that it wasn't like a big surprise or shock when we were older, and so that, like, my health records were accurate and things like that. And it is not that suggestion is usually not met well, because they feel it's almost like a sense of ownership of child. And that's not I want to be clear that that is not just adoptive parents who feel that way. I think a lot of parents feel like an ownership rather than like, almost like, like the child is an object rather than a child, in those regards. But so they don't want to tell them, and they don't want them to grow up knowing that. They said, Well, maybe we could tell them when they're older. And I, I'm pretty frank with them. I'm like, you know that is a big betrayal when they find out when they are older, like you will have the best chance of a good relationship with your child if you are open with them about it and their experiences from the time that they are very little like that. You don't have to like go into details with a two year old about why all of this happened, right? But there are age appropriate ways to introduce it very young, and I know because that's how we were raised. So

    KC Davis 21:54

    yeah, well, and I would imagine that most adoptive parents their hesitation in telling their kid is probably not a malevolent reason, like, I definitely would imagine that most, as you know, as most parents like, we're like, I don't want my kid to feel singled out. I don't want them to feel like they weren't wanted. I don't want them to feel like, you know, they're not 100% my kid and loved and all these kind of things. And I would imagine that that's what's driving most parents fears is like them wanting to be a good parent and feeling protective of their child. Yeah, I think, to your point, though, it's, you know, it's a big thing. It's pretty damaging. It sounds like for to have that sprung on you later in life. I would imagine,

    Stacy 22:40

    I think there were a couple. I mean, obviously with trans racial adoptees, you can't really, like, hide that. So there, growing up, there were a couple of kids that I went to school with. They were all also adopted. And our family and the few that had adopted internationally were the only ones that were fairly open with their children, like on the offset of what had happened, and then a few of them got dropped on them in their teens, and let me just say I would not make that choice seeing the reaction of that happening. So, so

    KC Davis 23:09

    we've talked a lot about, you know, what are certainly generalizations. Like, it's not this is not every circumstance of adoption, but they are systemic problems with the adoption industry, at least in this country, would you say that it's unethical to ever do an private infant adoption?

    Stacy 23:28

    I don't. I don't like

    KC Davis 23:30

    saying no. You don't like saying black or white, yes, no, total answer, yeah,

    Stacy 23:35

    yeah. I think it is problematic at best, systemically right now to participate in domestic infant adoption, but I don't also think that it is always unethical. I do know a few adopted biological parents who were in places that they didn't want to be, but they also didn't go through. They went through there's you don't have to go through an agency to adopt. You can find family, friends or whatever to or like friends of friends, and do a private adoption that way. From experience, I tend to think that that is more ethical, but it comes with other problems, because if you do that, that's actually how our adoptions were, like it was through a doctor or friend that my parents knew. But when you do that, then you tend to adopt a child and live in the same area as the biological parents, which has its own issues, right? And most agencies are very careful to not place children in the same area so that there can't be like accidental incest, because nobody wants that. But I think you're less likely to get a coerced decision in situations like that that not that it's perfect, right?

    KC Davis 24:46

    Well, and it does seem like this isn't about demonizing individual people. This is about sort of pointing out some very systemic exploitation and how high the risk is. It. Seems like we need a different approach to this industry in general. And it doesn't mean that there's never a circumstance where someone is, you know, engaging in a private infant adoption that is not, you know, that is wrong, I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah,

    Stacy 25:16

    and I have my personal thoughts on a women should always have a right to choose whatever scenario works best for her. I really have a hard time saying that, yeah, because what if that's what she wants to choose? We should move towards abolition. Yeah, because there are situations and we can talk about the motives behind her making that decision like you know, whether it is she had a very strong religious upbringing, and that really is her only decision in her mind, there her only option in her mind, like that is a different situation than that. Is a different question. Rather than having that off the table entirely, right, their motives behind it could be problematic, but I still think that the pregnant person should have the final say about how this goes, because she maybe have a revulsion to the idea of abortion, which is fair, I guess, but perhaps this baby is product of rape or product of something else, and she never wants that child. I feel like she should have the option to do adoption. I do think in those instances there needs to be something in place so the adoptees have their full health record, and even if they don't make contact with their biological family. Know enough about it, so we don't have surprise incest. Because I know in some situations that has happened, of course, that is not like an adoption specific thing that can happen with like sperm donors and men stepping out on families and all kinds of things. So that is not like just an adoption thing, but we can try to plan for those scenarios, right, so that we don't have those pop up as much as possible.

    KC Davis 26:53

    So you referenced foster care earlier, and you know, one of the things that that I have a little bit of experience only because my husband and I attended some foster care training, because we were considering becoming foster parents. And one of the things when we went into, like, the initial meeting, like the very first thing they said to all of us was, if you have infertility trauma that you have not addressed, I need you to get up and go home and address it before you go through this process. And they really hammered home to us that the goal of foster care is reunification, and that that should be what we're striving for. And that, you know, if it comes to a place where reunification isn't safe or possible, then that's when we need to look at adoption, but you kind of referenced it earlier. We have, we see a lot of parents, I think, go into foster care, hoping that a parent will not get their act together and that a family will not reunify. And I think there's a I mean, and I've had some friends that have adopted children from foster care, and like, there's a really big difference. I want to be clear what I'm saying. Like, you know my friend who fostered a young boy, and then got to the place where, like, there was a point in time where he was hoping that the rights would be terminated, but that was because of the biological parents behavior, because they were not safe and there was no indication they were going to be safe. And that was sort of his love of this child, is this is not the best place for that child that's different than, right? Because that's based on the facts of the situation, of what's best for the kid that's really different than entering the foster system and just generally going, Oh, I really hope we get one. I really hope this parent that I have not met, that I do not know, you know, I hope they don't get their shit together. I hope they fail at reunification so I can have a kid. That's a completely different thing. And unfortunately, I think even kind hearted people don't recognize that's kind of what they're hoping for when they enter into foster care. The other interesting thing that I think comes up in the conversation about adoption is that there obviously are adoptees that have had different experiences, that have different feelings about adoption, you know, biological parents or birth parents that have different experiences. But one of the things that I have noticed is that the demographic that you maybe wouldn't initially expect to have such a vehement sort of push back on some of these talking points are kids that grew up in abusive situations, in neglectful situations, that are sort of reflecting on their own trauma and going, you guys are complaining, I would have given anything for someone to have rescued me out of this situation and put me into a different family. And I just think that that's a very valid perspective and feeling to. Have. And so I just think that's important. Like, not everybody having sort of strong reactions or feelings to this conversation is Oh, so you're for human trafficking. Like, that's not the case. Like it is complicated to grow up and not be taken care of. And I think for a lot of people that grow up this way, adoption is almost this fantasy, uh huh, you know what I mean, this, this almost Daddy Warbucks. What if I could be taken away from here by a nice family that would really take care of me? And I think that sometimes, whether we're conscious of it or not, some of that can play into sort of the way we address the adoption industry at large, in general.

    Stacy 30:38

    I agree, because I've seen some of those people that are very angry and adoptees comment sections. And like their hurt is understandable. And like, I understand that I don't know that they are productive and their outlet for it. I understand where it comes from. Take it to your therapist. Yeah, they're a better way. There are better places to express this, but, yeah, no, that is completely valid. I think the trouble with any government organization, or anything that handles basically any government organization, because generally it's even if they have private contractors, you know, sync and DCS are government programs. And with any government program, it's imperfect, and they're going to do too much and too little at the same time, right? It's almost impossible for them to do it completely correct, right? There, you're going to miss families, and then you are going to come down too hard on families, depending on the factors at play. You're like, right? What judge Are you in front of? Is your guardian ad litem? Like, what biases do they bring into this situation is the foster family really like, oh, like working for reunification and hoping that they that your the child goes back with the family? Or are they really just secretly hoping to get this over quick enough so that they have the child in their home? And so it creates both scenarios where kids get probably ripped out of their homes more than they should, but also we they miss children who are left in abusive homes and who want to be like, taken out of their house and into another situation. And so, you know, I don't know that there's a way to change that enough to ever that they'll

    KC Davis 32:14

    never be a mistake one way or the other. And then, speaking of like being up in comment sections, what are some of the Give me some of like, the best and worst responses that people have when they hear adoptees talking. Like, what would you say? Like, hey, this is not a helpful thing to say. This is not a supportive thing to say. Versus like, what is an appropriate response to someone sharing as an adult adoptee? Because the one that comes to mind, honestly, is the You should be grateful. Yeah.

    Stacy 32:41

    Like, you should be grateful. It's gross and like, and also like, oh, did you want to live with your drug addicted parents? I've seen a lot, and I'm like, that first off, that is not even like, I can't even say that's like, the majority of families. Like, like, you're just like, pulling scenarios out of the air and being like, would you rather live with these No, like, I love my parents. I wouldn't have rather grown up in another family, but also, like, for one that wasn't true. But what if that was true? Like that is like, why would you say that to somebody that doesn't do anybody good? Referencing? Oh, well, you could have ended up dead in your family. I've seen that in comment sections, which is super inappropriate, or people. I also don't think it's awesome. Like, again, I understand that people had terrible scenarios growing up, but trauma dumping What happened to you to make somebody else feel bad, you know, like they didn't experience that is also weird. Like, Oh, well, my father did this to me, so you should be grateful that you got adopted. Like, that's weird. Like, don't

    KC Davis 33:42

    also, like, adoptive parents can do bad shit too. Oh, yeah, absolutely, it's not a guarantee, just because you got adopted. And then Stacy, sort of wrapping up, what would you say to maybe adult adoptees that are listening, that may be thinking of these things for the first time, or experiencing some of the like, did you have conflicting feelings? Was there a part of this that was difficult for you?

    Stacy 34:07

    So as an adult adoptee, I think you really if you are wanting to find your biological family, I think the biggest thing to prepare yourself for is that they may not want to find you right like or they may welcome you with open arms, but they're dysfunctional, or they may have been looking for you for a long time. You may not find them. You may find them and they don't want contact with you. Yeah, they might have died before you got to meet them. You really have to make sure, I would say, talk to a therapist and make sure that you are really prepared for any of those scenarios, because you don't want to go in with a fairy tale scenario in your head, because then that's the other thing we see. Is we see a lot of scenarios where adoptees meet their biological family and it's just roses and awesomeness and things like that. And that can happen like my mom has been in contact with her. Daughter for years, like, we went to her wedding back in 1994 we were, you know, we weren't in her wedding or anything like that, but we went to met her. We're in her wedding. Like, my parents don't want any contact, which is, again, fine like that. I mean, it's not fine because, like, medical history would be nice, but I don't think they also owe it to me at the same time, if that makes sense. And my sister has gotten in contact with both of her parents, and she has a good relationship with one of them, at least. So just, you just need to prepare yourself. And also, the reason why I kind of step back, and I don't really have a whole lot of videos on my Tiktok about this I deleted most of them, is because there is a lot of tension between how people process their adoption, and I decided that, because I have kind of my situation was better, I didn't find it productive to go in and counter other people's arguments, necessarily, because it's not I mean, I didn't want other people to feel like I was negating their experience, even though I Have a perhaps different outlook of what should be done to remedy the whole adoption scenario, right? But I worry about inviting in comment sections and video replies and how productive that is to the larger discussion. So I really would suggest, if you want to engage with these topics, like in a public atmosphere, that go to therapy and you really have a good handle on yourself before you start talking online in those spaces. So, yeah,

    KC Davis 36:30

    that's all really helpful. And I think, you know, as a therapist, I feel like the hardest thing for any person to do is to hold two truths at the same time. And, you know, I think that it can be true that you have feelings about your adoption and about and maybe anger or distress about, you know, the problematic aspects of adoption in general, and you love your parents, and you've had a good life, and you don't want to hurt your parents feelings. You know what I mean? Like, I just think it's important to say that, like everyone has that permission to hold two truths at the same time.

    Stacy 37:10

    I've been very fortunate that my mom my dad has passed. So I'm talking just about my mom currently has been very open, and we can talk about this subject because, you know, from a birth mother perspective and adoptee perspective, and sometimes we hurt each other's feelings, and that's okay. We just talk through and work through it, that having these conversations is really helpful, not only to us, but so that we can work to make the future a better place for other adoptees and how these systems continue on. Yeah,

    KC Davis 37:40

    it really isn't about anyone being the good guy or the bad guy. When it comes to talking about individual adoptive parents and adoptees, it really is about all of us being human. And I think most people are doing the best that they can with the information that they have at the time. And we're all growing, and we all make mistakes, and, you know, not kind of moving out of that adolescent phase of seeing everything in black and white and needing everyone to be sort of, you know, morally perfect. Well. Stacey, this has been a really great conversation, and I appreciate it so much. Do you want to plug anything of yours, your Tiktok handle, or anything like that? Sure. I

    Stacy 38:17

    think I'm drowning Ophelia at on Tiktok. Let me just verify before, before

    KC Davis 38:21

    you send them to somebody else's pain. Yeah, that's

    Stacy 38:23

    terrible. Yeah, no, I'm drowning Ophelia, because that is a name I have picked out for my online handles when I was 16, and I haven't changed it.

    KC Davis 38:31

    I love it. So awesome. Thank you. You.

    Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Christy Haussler
116: Follow Up: California Passes New Family Vlogging Law

Today’s episode is a follow-up to Episode 65, The Dark Underside of Family Vlogging, Part 1, which aired almost a year ago. My guest from that episode, Cam, returns to discuss her reaction to a recent big development in the world of family vlogging. Cam grew up as the child of one of the first well-known “Mommy bloggers,” and is an international advocate for the children of influencers and family vloggers. She shares her perspective on the new California law. Join us!

Show Highlights:

  • Understanding the basics of the Child Content Creator Act in California to protect kids’ rights (similar laws are being passed in Illinois and Minnesota)

  • Legal ramifications for parents who don’t follow “the 30% rule”

  • Children on reality TV shows do NOT fall under the new law.

  • Understanding the Coogan Law

  • Cam’s perspective on the protections of the law for children—and what she wishes the law included

  • “The right to forget”: what it means and why it’s not included in the law

  • Cam’s thoughts about a recent scary cancer diagnosis in light of her past history with vulnerability at the hands of her mom’s vlog

  • Growing up with NO boundaries or privacy

  • Laws in CA, IL, and MN to protect kids from being exploited

Resources and Links:

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:04

    Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle. Care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and we are back in the studio with Cam. You'll remember cam from several episodes ago where we talked about family vlogging. Cam's mom was one of sort of the OG family mommy vloggers, and I wanted to sort of do this little catch up, because there's been kind of huge news in the family vlogging world. So cam, thank you for being back with us.

    Cam 0:29

    Thank you so much for having me again. Hello, hello.

    KC Davis 0:32

    Okay, so the big news is that California has passed a bill that relates to family vlogging. So share with us what that is. Yeah,

    Cam 0:45

    so similar to the bill that was passed here in my home state of Illinois that protects child vloggers or child influencers, we were able to talk to legislators over in California, we were able to speak to Governor Newsom and kind of express how necessary this bill is in a state like California, because, as you probably know, it's kind of like a quote, unquote, right of passage for family vloggers to pack up and move to California because of opportunities, or whatever the case might be. So we brought that to their attention after they were kind of seeing the work that we've been doing in several states around the country and with kind of comparing it to the Coogan law and explaining how, you know, these brands will seek out family bloggers so they have kids, but they don't have to pay the children legally. They were kind of horrified that this was able to go on for so long, and so they kind of copy and pasted the bill from Illinois. 30% of the revenue will be protected for the kids when they turn 18, which, you know, 30% is 30% but I still think it should be at least 50, but it passed, and yeah, I don't know. I'm sure we'll see a lot of family vloggers start to move out of California soon.

    KC Davis 2:03

    So when you say protected, you basically mean like, if I was to get a payment from a brand to make a video and my kids are in it, I would be required to put 30% of that payment into a bank account for my kids, and I wasn't allowed to spend it. Is that what that means? Yes, correct. So

    Cam 2:19

    you would be required by law, essentially, to have a Coogan account that's similar to what it's being compared to, and you would have to put 30% aside for your child. You can't touch it, and it's only accessible to your child when they turn 18.

    KC Davis 2:37

    And if a parent doesn't do that, does that give the child legal recourse when they turn 18. If that money's not there, yes,

    Cam 2:44

    it does, because legally, they are supposed to follow what is now being set up like if you are there's basically regulations and guidelines now. So if you're going to choose the route to post your child on social media, to monetize your family, to monetize your children, you have to do it the right way and set these things up now, of course, there's not like, you know, the government isn't gonna get like, a ding, a notification if someone doesn't do that. It's just kind of like, but you'll

    Speaker 1 3:15

    have recourse when you Right exactly. So for when I

    Cam 3:19

    like to compare it to like Alana, like Honey Boo Boo. Her mom was supposed to set up a cougan account for her for a few different things, and she never did. And so all of that money is missing, and legally, Alana is able to take action against her for the certain things where the Coogan account lies, not the reality TV, because those kids also aren't protected. But like the things she did where she as a child, was paid, she's able to legally go after her mother. I

    KC Davis 3:45

    don't think I realized that it doesn't apply to reality TV. Did I hear that? Right? Yeah. So children

    Cam 3:51

    on reality TV shows, they are not protected by the cougar. They actually have no protection so they can film from sunup to sundown. They don't have to. They don't pay the kids legally. It's up to the parent to kind of pay that. It's to just be ethical,

    KC Davis 4:09

    yeah, which doesn't happen. I

    Cam 4:13

    don't know if you remember, but when a lot of the stuff about the Duggars was coming out, I think her name is Jill, she said that her parents had were supposed to set aside money for the kids, and then her dad gave her $1,000 after like, 20 seasons of being on the show as a child. And you know, so none of those kids have that money, because those parents take it. And you know, it's their responsibility to, like you said, Be ethical, but they aren't. It's about even the John and Kate Plus eight kids like those kids you know, didn't have any protections as well.

    KC Davis 4:48

    And so for people who are listening that maybe aren't familiar with what the Cougar law is, maybe they didn't catch our last episodes. It's basically a law that regulates child acting how many hours a day they're. They can work, you know, how when they can get their education, and what happens to the money that they earn? So I am a little shocked to hear that that doesn't apply to reality TV. Yeah,

    Cam 5:12

    it's also something that we've kind of been advocating for, in a sense, just because reality TV is blown up. But yeah,

    KC Davis 5:18

    it's mild. So okay, two follow up questions. One is, are there any other protections in the law besides just the financial protection? And two is, are there any protections that didn't make it into the law that you would have liked to have seen?

    Cam 5:32

    So some of the protections that have made it into the bill, that I do think is important is parents have to keep kind of a log of how many minutes or hours their child is working for them, for like social media or whatever. And so it kind of goes hand in hand with the cougan law. So like these kids can't necessarily be exploited to the point where they are like their life is working for the camera every single day, all day, like there's no separation between reality and what's posted online. So I think that parents keeping track of how many hours they're making their children work. One, I mean, I think that's ethical. I think that that's really important. And two, I think it puts a responsibility on the parent, so they can kind of have perspective and see kind of how long they're making their child work, you know, because at the end of the day, kind of, I think a lot of people just think it's simple to just put your phone in front of your kid and be like, Oh, this is easy, whatever. But when you're looking at it on paper and you're seeing like, oh, I had my kid working for five hours today, you know, I think that kind of might put some into perspective for people.

    KC Davis 6:53

    Well, it strikes me as something that, you know, okay, so that's not probably enforceable, or if it is, it's probably really easy to get around. But I actually still think that it's a really like healthy law to have, because I feel like it's making a statement, which is like making it's like forcing people to recognize, like, No, this is work. You are requiring work from your child. This is not I have a little family camcorder, and we're recording happy family memories like, I think it is. I think making an important first step of saying, like, no, like, this is a thing, and we're gonna, like, officially, state legally that this is work, right, and you are forcing your child to work right? So I think that's a good first step. Is there anything that you would have liked to seen in in the law,

    Cam 7:40

    absolutely, the right to forget part has really been something that I've advocated for, these bills in every single state. However, it unfortunately hasn't made it in a bill yet. And what is that? So the right to forget is when the child turns 18, the child influencer turns 18, they would have the legal right to have any or all of the content removed off of the social media platform that their parent posted. So not only would we be holding parents accountable, but it would also be holding these social media platforms accountable. There are a few platforms who have been fighting against this. However, in recent light, they've actually been advocating with us. Now, Facebook was really against this. They lobbied against us really, really hard in Washington, but they were with us when it came to the Maryland bill. So

    KC Davis 8:35

    it's interesting, because this is people may not know this, but the right to be forgotten is a legal right in the EU so in the European Union, which is basically, like, if you don't want to be online, like you have a right to have things taken down online that are about you. And I obviously there's some nuance to it and things like that. But yeah, it's interesting. It does feel like it's not surprising to me that you would run up against resistance to that here as, like, a uniquely American culture around, like, sort of, maybe tangentially related to free speech, but it's kind of like this, no, I have a right. Like, you have the right to film anyone you want on in public. You have, you don't have a right to privacy in public, and someone can put it online. You can't do anything about that. And like, it does feel like there's kind of a uniquely American culture that would resist this idea that somebody would have the right to be like taken from the internet. But I'll tell you like. I'm sure you could relate like as someone who makes content. It's just like a totally unique experience to like blow up online, especially if you blow up in a negative way or in a way that gets criticized, and I can't imagine the trauma of blowing up completely against your will, like you didn't even put it online to begin with, or that you were a child, yeah,

    Cam 9:52

    and I think that's just again, like I could have biasness towards this, because whenever you Google my legal name, there's Photos. That pop up that I wish didn't pop up. I mean, that's why I don't go by my legal name on the internet. And I totally agree, and I think that's especially where we run into a lot of problems, because a lot of legislators that I've talked to around the country, every time we get to that part, it's kind of just like, oh, we'll see what we can do. We don't really, we don't really know how we can incorporate this? And it's, I don't think they realize that it's something that we can do, because, like you mentioned, this is something that happens in another country. So it's, I feel like we can definitely find a way to word this bill so these kids that have been forced to do things are protected because, I mean, hey, the post about me getting my first period when I was nine years old, that's still on the internet. I can't do anything about that. And it's just like, it sucks. It

    KC Davis 10:51

    does seem like it should at least apply to children. Absolutely, I

    Cam 10:55

    agree. Like, I

    KC Davis 10:56

    understand the argument against, like, oh, you know, if you maybe, if you did something horrible and it got publicity. Maybe you shouldn't, you know, be allowed to run away from that, but like a child, I think should have that, right?

    Cam 11:08

    I agree.

    KC Davis 11:09

    So switching gears just a moment, I wanted to ask you kind of a personal question that I already asked, if it was okay to ask, but so you recently got kind of a scary medical diagnosis,

    Cam 11:19

    yeah. So I've been advocating for myself to kind of get these tests done. It's taken a while, and I was recently diagnosed with stage four cancer. It's treatable, but it's spread, so it's a little bit scarier. I mean, cancer in general is obvious, obviously, just very scary. But, yeah, it's been interesting, kind of navigating the diagnosis along with having a platform of my own. Yeah,

    KC Davis 11:45

    I'm curious, like, how you know one of part of your story is your mom, like, very much publicizing your medical history and the things that happened to you medically, and the times you were in the hospital and and I'm curious, like, as an adult, how that still affects you, especially going through a big medical event like this,

    Cam 12:05

    yeah, so you know, when I first found out, I just panicked, and I had so much anxiety. And of course, it was because finding out I have cancer is scary, but I felt so vulnerable and so exposed. I guess I don't really know how to explain it, because, I mean, I'm in the privacy of my own home, but in my mind, it's like, oh my god, like it didn't feel in my control. And so I was just getting real, like I was isolating myself, like it didn't feel private. Yes, exactly. And it got to a point where I was starting to really isolate myself and not talk to anybody and like, I just was like, Okay, I'm just gonna keep all of this a secret. And like, I'm not gonna whatever. I'm not gonna just, I won't burden people with it, like it's my thing to carry and my partner, my fiance, Alex, they said, you know, after we were leaving the doctor's office, I just was like, Great, now I have to tell everybody. And, like, I have to update everybody. And my partner was like, No, you don't. They were like, you don't have to tell anybody anything until you're ready to tell what you want to tell. And I think, I think kind of getting a big diagnosis like that, I felt obligated to make like, update everybody. Like, get on all my social media platforms, and get on Facebook, which I haven't been on in years, and be like, I have cancer, but kind of having that reassurance for my partner of them, being like, you are not obligated to post anything. You are not obligated to tell anybody until you've processed this yourself and you're mentally ready to tell people. And I think kind of hearing that was just like, it was like, like a weight off my shoulders, kind of Yeah. Well, one

    KC Davis 13:59

    thing that kind of strikes me is like, as an adult who makes content about my life, like, I have a very clear line between, like, my real life and what I talk about online. And there's tons of things that happen in my real life that I don't talk about online, right? And I specifically talk about the things online in a specific way, but like, that's an adult, right? Like a child who just kind of has a camera put in front of their face and their real moments documented and then put online, like they're not gonna develop that same sense of boundary. And so it's interesting and heartbreaking to me that, like, after you got the diagnosis, part of your initial anxiety was already like, how am I gonna talk to the internet about this? Or, like, how am I going to update everyone? Or, like, how am I going to roll this out? It's like, honestly, like, the, you know what I mean, and like, that's such an extra anxiety. Like, how am I going to roll this out? Like, all the PR people are coming in,

    Cam 14:52

    yeah, it's just like, it's like, an instinct, almost, because, and I always say, like, I was literally raised on the internet, like, I, I. Grew up on the internet, in a sense, where not only was my parental Guardian, the person who was supposed to trust and protect me and teach me these things, posting everything. So like, I'm thinking, it's okay. So like, like, I'm a chronic overshare for a reason, because I I grew up without boundaries. And so that's something that, like as an adult, I'm really, really trying to work on in therapy, is knowing that these boundaries are okay. And even, like, I said, like, just that reassurance of being told, like, I don't have to run to the internet and immediately post this, like, I'm allowed to process this separately, and then if I decide to share, like, then I can share. It's just kind of like, oh, like, you're right. I can do that and you're right. It is kind of sad, like, you know, like, my first instinct was literally like, run to Twitter and be like, lol, I have cancer. Like, you know, like,

    KC Davis 15:56

    yeah, okay, so the one in California is the child content creator Rights Act, yes, and I just want to mention that in case anybody wants to, like, look it up and, you know, use it as a template. In Illinois, it's called the child influencer law, I think. But what's interesting is that Minnesota passed a similar bill that's going to be effective next year, that prohibits children under the age of 14 from engaging in the work of content creation, and requires adult content creators to delete content if a minor appearing in the content requests removal. Yeah,

    Cam 16:28

    that one is huge. That one I am very, very excited about. I don't think a lot of people know about it, because it's Minnesota, which, I mean, no shade to Minnesota, but it's just, you know, focused on California, but I'm so thrilled about that one, especially because on social, and this is something I have been saying to every legislator that we've met with on social media, there is a rule that you have to be 13 or 14, depending on what platform to even post on that platform. So seeing Minnesota actually kind of enact like, Hey, if you're under 14, you can't have these kids working for your social media account, I think that that's really huge. Like, I think that it's I think it's going to protect a lot of kids from being exploited, and I think it's going to protect a lot of kids from thinking that oversharing or just constantly posting everything on the internet isn't okay. Like, I think, I mean, 14, obviously you're still a child. You're still so young, don't get me wrong, but I think at 14, you're smarter than you are at six, you know what I'm saying? Like, you have more awareness, is what I'm trying to say. Well,

    KC Davis 17:43

    that sounds like great news. And I hope that you know, if you're listening from other states and this is something that interests you, you'll go and look at those laws and see write a letter to your local government, see if we can get more of these laws passed. Cam, thank you so much for taking the time to come in and update us on that and to share a little bit more of your story. And I really appreciate the time. Thanks for having me. Of course, have a great day. You too. You.

    Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Christy Haussler
115: The Difference Between Bullying and Ordinary Meanness (and why it matters) with Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore

Hello, World!

Today’s episode covers the topics of bullying, meanness, and conflict. My guest is uniquely qualified to share her wisdom and expertise, which she did in a TEDx talk. Bullying or meanness: what’s the difference, and how do we recognize the two? Join us to learn more!

Show Highlights:

● Dr. Eileen’s background as a clinical psychologist and author

● The specific criteria in the definition of bullying

● Empowering our kids to withstand meanness without taking a victim stance: “Conflict is inevitable.”

● Bullying has become “a thought-stopping cliche.”

● Meanness and bullying in the online world

● Vulnerability in being a content creator and dealing with feedback

● A better approach with kids: “Whose opinion matters to you?”

● The truth about self-esteem and a “quiet ego”

● Connecting with something greater than ourselves

● Helping kids learn self-compassion rather than self-esteem (Dr. Eileen teaches a “reflect, but downshift” technique in her book, Kid Confidence.)

● Dr. Eileen’s formula for teaching reflection to kids

● “Whose feelings are most important?”

● Validating and normalizing kids’ feelings (by following their lead) by offering empathy and confidence

● Being your kids “biased biographer”

● Learning to “stay in the water” instead of standing on the edge of the pool ● “Testing the water” to pull back on accommodations

Resources and Links:

Connect with Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore: Website (Find books for parents and kids!) and Kids Ask Dr. Friendtastic podcast,

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website:

www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:00

    Music. Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle. Care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and today I have Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore with me, and we're going to talk about the difference between bullying and ordinary meanness, which is the title of the TEDx talk that you did. That's right, although

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 0:21

    Ted central changed the title to conflict resolution on the playground, which is so bland,

    KC Davis 0:29

    but what can I do? Oh, that's funny, yeah. No, I like the first title better, for sure. So tell me a little bit of your background of how you kind of came to be the person on TED stage talking about the difference between bullying and ordinary meanness. Well, I'm

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 0:42

    a clinical psychologist, so I work with adults, children and families, and I've also written a whole bunch of books about children's feelings and friendships for both parents and kids, and one of the things that I often saw in my practice is that the B word gets thrown around too casually. So one of the stories that I tell in the TEDx is I had this middle school boy come in and he told me I was bullied today. And I said, what happened? And he said, this kid, he told me, quit making that annoying noise. It's like, No, that is not bullying, and researchers actually have a very specific definition of bullying. It involves deliberate meanness targeting a specific person, usually repeatedly over time, although sometimes one especially horrible action can count, and the most important part of the definition is that there is a power difference between the kid doing the bullying and the kid being bullied without that power difference. It's not bullying, it's just ordinary meanness or conflict or an unfortunate event or something like that. Now this definition, this distinction, is really, really important for a number of reasons. First of all, if we call every little thing that a kid does that we don't like bullying. We're really trivializing the very serious cases of peer abuse, and I don't like that. The other thing is that we're saying to our kids, you're fragile. You can't handle it if anyone is even slightly mean to you, and I don't think that that's empowering for our children. They are going to face somebody being mean to them. We do it as adults too. You know that somebody will say something like or, you know, we'll be irritated with somebody, and maybe we'll say something that, oh, gosh, I wish I hadn't said that. This is not good, but it's something that we can work through.

    KC Davis 2:41

    Yeah, that's what's hard, right? It's like, okay, on the one hand, I don't want to say we should normalize ordinary meanness as if it's okay or provable, or it's not a big deal, or it's not hurtful, but there is a sense of, like, normalizing it for a child, in the sense of, like, hey, this isn't okay. It's not acceptable. But like, it's going to happen, and you can survive it, and we can walk through it, and we can figure and it's not like the world is not ending Exactly,

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 3:09

    exactly. You are not devastated by that.

    KC Davis 3:13

    This is not going to cause, probably long term damage, like most people are going to have general meanness experiences in their life, right?

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 3:23

    And that, again, I'm so glad that you brought that up. I am not in favor of bullying or meanness or anything like that, but I do think it's something that we all need to figure out how we're going to deal with conflict, because conflict is inevitable. My favorite work activity is I have this little podcast that comes out every week. It's just five minutes, and it's called kids ask Dr friend tastic. And every episode features an audio recording of a question from a kid about friendship, and then I try to say something practical and thought provoking. So I have so many favorite episodes, but in one of them, a kid, a little six year old named Zen, asked, How do I not have conflict with my friend? And I said, Well, there's only one way you can never have conflict with your friend, and that is you and your friend have to think and feel exactly the same at every single second, but wait, then you couldn't be friends, because he would be the same person. So, you know, it is just unavoidable that we're going to disagree, but that conflict is actually useful. Now, most of us go through life assuming that, yeah, pretty much everybody thinks the way I do, but that's just human nature. So conflict is actually what brings us up in those moments to go, Huh? I guess they see it differently. Oh, okay, so

    KC Davis 4:48

    here's something that I think is light bulbing. For me for the first time, is that if we call everything bullying, one of the things that we lose, we position our children to react to. Any feelings of hurt, feelings in this very black and white, they've done something wrong. I am a victim. They are bad. There is nothing else to think about here, when, in reality, like the majority of the conflict we experience, you know, because we're human, there might be, you know, a slightly out of line comment, or maybe a little too sharp of a tone, or maybe outright something kind of mean they said,

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 5:25

    or they didn't realize that that was a sensitive topic for us. Yeah, they

    KC Davis 5:29

    didn't, they didn't realize it, or maybe you did something really hurtful to them, and that's their knee jerk reaction. And we're not saying it's okay that that's their reaction. It almost it's like bullying has become a thought stopping cliche in some places. That's exactly right, and it also seems like it would harm people that are being bullied, because if someone is being bullied, we don't want to talk to them about, Well, what did you do to bring that on? And do you see their point of view and like, it really does come down to like. You need really different interventions and responses depending on what it is, you need to diagnose it Right exactly.

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 6:03

    Because, if there truly is a power difference, if it's the kid doing the meanness or the bullying is bigger, stronger, tougher, more socially powerful, or if it's a group of kids picking on one kid, we cannot expect that one kid to say, you know, we'll just speak up to them. No, they can't. There's the power difference. That's what makes it difficult or impossible for that kid being targeted to deal with it. In that case, they need adult intervention to be those safety guardrails. But if it's just one stupid comment, because they're a kid and you're a kid, and they don't know how to handle conflict, and we adults, let's be honest, we're not so good at conflict either.

    KC Davis 6:45

    This is all applicable to adults, absolutely.

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 6:47

    So we all need to figure out, how can I raise my point without, you know, punching at them verbally, or certainly, otherwise, How can I when do I just need to, like, roll my eyes and say, I love them anyway. And, you know, so it's a balance. It's not like they're just do this one thing and then you're fine. We really need to be thinking about it. We always, always, always need to try to imagine the other person's perspective. Because, as you said, maybe they're responding to something that I did before that. Michael Thompson, the author, has this wonderful line that I wish I'd written, and it says his description of conflict among between kids. And it goes it all started when she kicked me back. Isn't that great?

    KC Davis 7:37

    So good. So Dr Eileen, I want to ask you about, like, if we take this concept of meanness and bullying, and then I want to step for a minute into the world of the internet, which is like, where a large portion of my presence is, is being on Tiktok and Instagram and being a content creator there. And it's been really interesting for me to see the discourse around what bullying looks like online. And certainly, I think we have instances, you know, where, especially with children like you mentioned, like, oh, the website of all these are cyber bullying and things like that. But when I think it gets interesting is when we think about someone who has, like, an online persona, and the difference between meanness and bullying. And this is actually funny, because this on my mind today, because I actually just had someone comment on one of my videos and said, You know, I think that, you know, I've been trying to tell you that I think that you're a bully, because you are sometimes really mean to people. And there is such a stark power differential. You have 1.2 million followers, and you know, you can mobilize a huge group of people. And we see this, there are people, there are creators out there who have, we call, like, call out accounts or, you know, they'll kind of get into an interpersonal spat with someone. And it is true that someone with a really large following has social capital and can, sort of like direct other people to go to this other kind of lone person on the internet. And so their point was that there is a power differential always between me and some like, random commenter on the internet, and now I've never, like, sought someone out to like, say something mean about them what they're referring to.

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 9:29

    Yeah, like, I haven't, I don't know what they're talking about, but I cannot imagine you getting all your followers to say, Take that one down. That doesn't seem like anything I know about you.

    KC Davis 9:39

    No, it's almost always me responding to someone in my comment section that has said something that I thought was inappropriate or hurtful or whatever. But what I have found really interesting is that while I agree with the argument that in that instance, there's a case to be made that I am in that like it's not just. Me being mean to someone, even if I was mean, right? Like, let's say it's not just me. It's bullying because of the power difference. But in my experience, like, there's also a lot of power that comes from being anonymous on the internet. I

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 10:15

    was just gonna say that there is absolutely the power of because I've done a fair bit like between the books and videos and articles what have you. I'm out there. Also, there is a vulnerability, because anybody can say anything about you. So I'm not sure I totally buy that. It's a one way power dynamic. You Yeah.

    KC Davis 10:43

    I mean, certainly there are things you could do to leverage it, like we the example of, Hey, everyone, go get this person. Or if you're making maybe, like, video after video after video about a random private citizen or whatever,

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 10:54

    but you're not going to do that, but you are very vulnerable. And I and you know anybody who makes the effort to share content with the world? Because the world can be vicious, and it

    KC Davis 11:07

    becomes groups of people who anonymously, make more profiles or get other people to come, and it's like, you can't. My thing is always, and I don't want, I'm like, trying to, sorry, this is like, fresh on my mind.

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 11:18

    Because, yes, of course, so do. I

    KC Davis 11:20

    think that not only did I get that one, but I got a ton, but that's on the back of a ton of other like, hate comments I've been getting for days about how ugly I am and how mean I am and how awful I am. So

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 11:30

    Brene Brown talks about that, about people writing, you know, more Botox, less research. It's like, ouch, ouch. So it is a very brave thing to go out there and put stuff out there, put your ideas out there, try to be helpful. And yeah, anybody can say something vicious about you, and you can't really hit back, and you wouldn't want to, but I think that people don't always realize how vulnerable creators are. And exactly as you said, because it's so public, so that person who said whatever mean thing about you, they are actually harnessing your earned audience to punch at you. So I don't think they're powerless. That was intentional. Like I'm not gonna quibble about who's bullying who you know? I think that was certainly unkind,

    KC Davis 12:24

    but I do think it's interesting when we think about online spaces, I think that's where power differential sometimes becomes harder to quantify, like, if it's this is my boss, okay, power differential, right? If it is, maybe even from a social capital more, where it's like a white woman in public, sort of harassing a black woman. It's like, okay, there's an obvious social capital racism power differential there. If it's a like you said, a bigger kid, a stronger kid, a more popular kid. But it's interesting to me, once we move online, that it's a little bit harder to talk about bullying versus meanness, one because power differential, I think, is harder. But also what I find interesting is the repetition part. You mentioned that, like, it can be one thing that's really severe, but usually it's sort of like a cumulative and targeted over and over. And I think that anybody who has

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 13:13

    put their ideas out in public has encountered nasty people like so my first book for parents was called the unwritten rules of friendship, simple strategies to help your child make friends. Like, what is more G rated than that? Like, I am the most G rated person on earth, right? But I saw this one reviewer who called the book nauseating because it doesn't contain bible quotes. Now, okay, like, I don't have to go there, but I don't remember a lot of comments about play dates in the Bible. But you know, so and you know, this person felt very free to just say this. And of course, they had the right to their opinion, but they didn't just not buy my book. You know, they made a point of announcing it to everybody that it's nauseating, and it's like, Do you know how long it took me to write that book? You know, all the research that I read for it, but, and I would consider

    KC Davis 14:08

    that and tell me if you'd agree, like that would be to me, like, ordinary meanness, yeah, because

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 14:13

    I don't care. Like, this is not, you know, something that wounded me, because this is not someone's opinion I respect. Yeah, exactly. But

    KC Davis 14:20

    what's interesting to me is, like, let's say you have a teenager online and whatever, in way, they're like, they're getting a lot of comments, but it's not from the same person. It's not even coordinated. It's not like a group of people who are coordinating, coordinating. It's just that, as they grow up and they're on the internet, and this, this is, I think this happens a lot with teenagers, I think, and I see it a lot with, like, professional people who have any kind of online persona where, okay, no one is bullying them, but psychologically they are being bullied like they are still having the experience. Of this repetitive onslaught, anonymous power differential, like, it's just like an interesting thing that I think happens online, and I'm curious, like, how we address that with kids, how we handle that as adults? And because it is, like, a huge impact.

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 15:15

    So a lot of times, parents will give their teenagers sermons about you shouldn't care what other people think. Well, they can't. You know that that's just not possible. And if they did, they would be sociopaths, because only sociopaths don't care what anybody right. So I think the better message to give them, or the more useful message, is whose opinion matters to you? Your parents, sure your close friends, sure, your teacher, yeah, some anonymous person who you know, you know, grumpy pirate 27 like whatever. You don't even know who that is, and that person is not creating things and trying to put it out there. So I think with teenagers, they're trying to figure out who they are. They're experimenting with different ideas, almost like putting on hats. So one of my main advice pieces to parents of teenagers is, whatever the kid did a month ago, you can't hold that against them, because that was an entirely different person. So you just gotta let it go. But so they're trying on these identities, and sometimes they're going to get nonsense. And like you and I, are old enough to be have more established identities, maybe more established relationships that anchor us. It's harder for a young person, and all we can do, I think, is talk about it. What do you think motivates someone to make a mean comment to a stranger, let the words come out of their lips. How do you think you should respond if a stranger says something that's mean,

    KC Davis 16:49

    I like that. You're saying that, you know, that we shouldn't just say, oh, you know, don't care what people think. Don't listen to what people think. Because I think there's something kind of invalidating about that. And I think in my experience, and I feel like this is how any teenager would feel, like, even if you know that that person's opinion maybe isn't correct, or that's just their projection or whatever, it doesn't take away the pain of this individual wants to hurt me, like, whether their information is accurate or not, it's still wounding to be like, there's a person out there who just, like, decided what they wanted today was for me to be in pain, right?

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 17:28

    So is that person who's someone whose opinion you respect, somebody who has nothing better that to do with their time than be nasty online. So let's not give them the satisfaction and to say your problem, not mine. Now it's different because you said sometimes you'll have a teen who gets multiple comments along the same direction. So you know, if you get feedback, you might want to think about it. It's like, Huh? I've heard several people said that maybe I should tone it down a little bit, or think about how I'm expressing that feedback doesn't feel good, but if you're

    KC Davis 18:05

    getting, yeah, do you think that's part of it too? Like, I feel like people they mistake I don't like what you're saying with your being mean, or like you're this feedback about me that's critical. Is you being mean? And people have a hard time distinguishing? Yeah,

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 18:20

    and I think there's, it's very people are very quick to cancel someone and say you're toxic, meaning you have no value, no worth. And I don't believe that, like you might have made a mistake, you might have done something unkind, you might need to learn something, but you know, to just dismiss people entirely. So I had a client once, she was a college girl, and she had a best friend who was very close to her, and then she fell in love with this guy, and they started dating, and the roommate, the best friend was jealous, and my client tried to say, well, let's have brunch. Let's do this, and let's make sure we have time. But the best friend was still angry, and then, after she'd been dating this guy, I don't know, was it six months a long time, the roommate sent her a letter, five pages handwritten, and the gist of the letter was, you're bad, like that is not how you resolve a conflict. So if I had the other roommate as a client, I would have suggested start first with connection. I miss you. Offer validation for their point of view. I know it's so exciting for you to have this relationship, and I'm so happy for you that it's been going so well for so long, you look really happy with him, and that's great. And then ask for what you want like. So could we make sure that we have some time together? You know, let's talk about what makes sense, and that's going to get a. Positive response, as opposed to the you're bad, which is just a conversation Ender, yeah.

    KC Davis 20:05

    And when you talk about, you know, helping, maybe helping kids or teens deal with the ordinary meanness by sort of saying, okay, like, just because they say that about me doesn't mean that that's true. I feel like that really ties into, sort of like, your other area of expertise, which is like children and self esteem. And I want to talk about that for a minute as well, because I know there's a lot of parents that listen to the podcast, and I've also never heard advice for children that wasn't applicable to adults. To be honest, like so many of my

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 20:36

    Yes, yes. Isn't it fascinating? Yes,

    KC Davis 20:38

    but you know, I think it's I'm really interested in self esteem, because I feel like when I was growing up, there was a big push for the self esteem movement, and now we're sort of looking back and going, did that work? Like, yeah, I want like, I know that science

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 20:54

    says no. So what research finds is that higher self esteem is not associated with better mood. It is not associated with better school performance. It is not associated actually, it might be associated with better mood, but it's not associated with better school performances. It's not associated with having kids avoid sex, drug and other bad things that we don't want them doing. It's not associated with better relationships. In fact, bullies tend to have higher self esteem. I was gonna say, like it, yeah, yeah. So this is not and you see a lot of stuff on like Instagram about how you can't succeed without believing yourself that is the key to success, or you can't have a relationship unless you love yourself, and that's simply not empirically true. So what I like I was I wrote this book because I kept seeing all this nonsense about self esteem, things like affirmations to say good things to yourself, or heap your kids with lots of praise, and scientifically, that does not work. If you've got a kid who's self doubting and tell him to do affirmations, or you heap them with praise, it makes them feel worse, because it highlights the contrast between whatever it is you're saying and how they actually feel. This is science.

    KC Davis 22:17

    I remember being a kid, and I remember that the more praise people would heap onto me, the more shame I felt, because I was, like, if you only knew, Oh, look, I feel even I feel even less disconnected, like I feel even more disconnected now, because the only people that like me are the ones that don't know me.

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 22:38

    Yes, that is perfect articulation of how a kid or an adult with low self esteem tends to think, and also the other recipe that's always pushed is accomplishments. No, we all know adults who are very accomplished but hate themselves, so then we certainly don't want to put our kids on a treadmill of constantly having to prove their worth. And I think the problem is that the whole premise of boosting kids' self esteem is wrong. So I mean, how many people stand in front of a mirror and say, gosh, I love myself and like, would you want to be friends with them if they did? No, no, that is not what we're aiming for. What we're aiming for is more like the way we are with a close friend, so you're not thinking, does he like me, or is she impressed by me? You're not even thinking about yourself, because you're immersed in the conversation or the activity. And there's this beautiful kind of forgetting of the self, which is called a quiet ego. Isn't that beautiful? I just love that term. Yeah,

    KC Davis 23:40

    it reminds me of my favorite quote by CS Lewis, where he says humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less. And this has been my experience to a T like I went through rehab when I was 16. I had really low self worth, self esteem problems, and they did the whole Oh, stare in the mirror and tell yourself, I'm good enough today. And none of that worked. No. But what's interesting is that, you know, as I got better, I did get sober, and I did become like a healthy person, but I didn't think about myself any less. Now I was just thinking about, Am I doing the good things? Am I doing the good things? Am I doing the good things? It really wasn't until I just stopped thinking about myself in general as much.

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 24:18

    Yeah, so either thinking I'm amazing or, you know, I'm terrible, both of those are focused inward. And what we want to on judging the self, and that's a dead end. So what we really want to do is turn down the volume on self focus and self judgment, and we do this by connecting with something bigger than ourselves. And that sounds so Hallmark, but it is absolutely true. And we've all had moments of that, when you're moved with compassion for a friend. You're not thinking, do I look good now when you stand under the night sky and just feel that deliciously small that. Sense of, oh, again, you're not thinking, how am I doing? You know, is everybody impressed?

    KC Davis 25:04

    Well, there were periods of my life where I was thinking that even under the night sky, but those were the ones where I was not happy. But Dr Eileen, how do I help my kids do this? Like I have a six year old and when she struggles with perfectionism or self doubt or something, it's hard as a parent to not go right to but you're so special. I love you so much. You're so great. How do I help a young child instead learn self compassion instead of self esteem? Right?

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 25:31

    So it depends on what they're doing. So the book that I talk about this is called Kid confidence. Help your child make friends, build resilience and develop real self esteem, and I talk each chapter is one of those things that the self doubting kids say, like, nobody likes me, or the worst kid in the world, or whatever it is, so we kind of just take it step by step with each one and like, I'm a clinician, so I'm very much a roll up my sleeves. What are we going to do kind of thing, but for a kid who is putting themselves down. Remember, with a little one, some of it is experiment to see how you respond, and what I recommend, yeah, some of it is a twinge of oof, but some of it is also they're feeling their way in the world and in relationships. So what I would recommend is don't get into an argument about whether or not they're worthless, like that's not the topic. You know, they're a human being. They have worth. What I would do instead is focus on the feelings behind the comment. And one technique that I recommend is what I call reflect but downshift, so you describe the kid's feelings, but then for bonus points, you attach in this situation at this moment, so it's not a Forever and always. So you're feeling discouraged with this particular project that you're trying to do tonight, you know? So we're making it smaller and more anchored, but we're acknowledging how they're actually feeling. Don't tell them don't feel that way. Just reflection is such a Dippy intervention, but some of us have made a career out of it, because it works. It feels good to be heard, and especially as a parent, when you acknowledge your kid's feelings, you're ramping them up in words, which makes them feel more understandable and more manageable. And when you as a parent do it, it's like you're holding half the weight of those big feelings. Now I have a couple of recommendations about how to reflect with kids. The basic formula is you're feeling blank because blank or you could also say it's hard for you when, or it bothers you when, or you wish whatever it was. We adults tend to want to skip the feelings and go right to the solution, but kids won't let us, so we really have to meet them where they are. I had a family once. The parents were these lovely, gentle people, and one day, their son came home and said, I hate Stuart's guts, and I'm changing names, of course. So the parents responded by saying something like, throughout history, dehumanization is what has led to atrocities. So I work in Princeton, what I can't What can I say? So, like, this is true, right? It's good. We shouldn't teach our kids, not sure, but they were completely talking past the kid. So the kid responded by saying, I want to kill Stuart and these poor parents were horrified, thinking they're raising a future AX murder. But the principle is, when kids don't feel heard, they get louder. So this is a Dippy intervention, but just reflect, reflect, reflect, until you see the softening in their face and in their body, and then and only then can we move on to problem solving, and it's better to ask rather than tell.

    KC Davis 28:47

    And when do we pivot? Like, because I feel like sometimes reflecting works really well for my kids, but then, like, occasionally I get a that's what I just said, like, you know, like, I'm like, I'm getting and I feel like, as a therapist, I've, it's like they kind of go, okay, therapist like, that's true. Like, we get a little too therapisty on it. And, you know, when where's that middle ground of, like, I want to validate your feelings. I think we follow the kids lead. Yeah, follow the kids lead. Okay. I love that downshift language because I was just talking to a friend this morning about, you know, I really I want to validate my kids emotions, and I want them to, you know, honor their feelings and things like that. But at the same time, you know, I don't want to make such a big deal out of every feeling they have, that they think every time I have a feeling the world needs to stop because something horrible is happening, or something or that I can't do things that are uncomfortable or that there aren't, you know what I mean. And so how do we validate but also normalize? You know, I feel like there's kind of a middle there absolutely is,

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 29:53

    and we follow the kids lead. So if they say, I know that's what I just said, and you can say, Okay, I just wanted to make sure that. I understood, and that's fine, but it is we do have to watch our instinct to leap in. So I had a mom of a high schooler once as my client, and one day her kid came home spitting nails because of something that happened at school. I don't remember what it was, but she's like, I can't believe the teacher did whatever it was. And the mom told me that for once, she remembered to do the reflection. Because normally she would be like saying, well, you should do this. You know, you should go talk to the teacher, but she said, for once, I remembered, and she said, you're really frustrated that the teacher did whatever she did. And the kid goes, Yeah, and it's not fair, because she's always doing things like this. And the mom said, it's hard for you when she keeps doing this thing, even though, you know it's hard on the rest of you, or whatever. And the kid said, Yeah, and it's just not fair that she does that. And she says it really bothers you that she's doing this thing again and again. And the kid said, yeah. So now what did we see? We see the softening in her face and her body. So the mom knew, if she could say, So, what do you think you might do about it? And the kid said, I guess I'll go talk to the teacher. And she stormed off. And the mom was like, Well, it worked so and it worked a lot better than the mom said, why don't you just talk to the teacher, even though the mom was right, that's exactly what she should have done. But we made room for the kid to think about it. But to your point about their feelings are not the end of the world. Like you know, I've devoted my whole professional life to people's feelings, but our feelings in a given moment are not necessarily the most important thing. I had a younger kid once who just hated, hated, hated getting her picture taken. And it was grandma's birthday, and the whole family was gathering from all over, and I said to the kid, I get it, you hate pictures. You know, you just feel uncomfortable. You just really dislike pictures. She goes, yeah. And I said, whose feelings are most important at grandma's birthday? She goes, grandma's. And I was like,

    KC Davis 32:01

    yeah, that is so helpful, Dr Eileen, that has unlocked some things, because it's also not even, like, whose feelings are most important, but like, I was just listening in this moment, just this morning, I was listening to a Tiktok of this lady that was like, you know, if your kid says, you know, I don't want to try this, like, the sandwich tastes like peanut butter. And you know, it doesn't, because there's no peanut butter on there. And, you know you like, maybe just say, okay, that's fine. Don't eat it. And in my head, I was like, my child's diet would be two items if I just literally validated every fear and feeling she has about food. But at the same time, there's this concept that you just mentioned, of like your feelings can be valid, and is your feeling more important in this moment than perhaps what your body might need, the opportunity to have a new food, the like, like that, I think, unlocked something for me where it's not either or it's not shut up and try the sandwich, or quit being so sensitive, or, ugh, you're too much eat the sandwich. But it's also not okay, sweetie. You know, I told I want to validate your fear of the sandwich. And, you know, like, or having to have this long, drawn out kind of, like tiptoe conversation about, like, cajoling them into the sandwich. It's like, hey, you know what? Sometimes I feel afraid when I've tried something new, too. And

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 33:25

    that one yeah and yes

    KC Davis 33:29

    in this moment. You know, trying, you know, the opportunity to try a new food that might give you a lot of nutrition for your body is more important than what you feel.

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 33:38

    I mean, we all it's always a judgment call, but one of the reasons that we adults are the ones with the car keys and the credit card is because we have a bigger perspective. You know, kids are just like in this moment right now. So there's a lot of interesting research by somebody named Ellie Liebowitz, and he's out of Yale, and he treats childhood anxiety, and he never meets the parents, or never meets the kid. He only works with the parents. Isn't that interesting. And what he finds is that when kids have an anxiety disorder, more and more, the parents do things to accommodate that anxiety, you know, like we don't want the kid to explode. So okay, we'll find we'll, you know, do it three times and, you know, check the whatever, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. So what he has to do the parents do is dial back the accommodations. Can't control the kid. Can only control what happens around the kid. And he says that there are two key ingredients that parents need to offer empathy, because the kid really is struggling. You know they're not doing this just to make your life harder, and confidence that this is hard for you, and I know you can do this. I know not that you won't feel scared or uncomfortable or whatever, but I know you can get through it. One of my favorite interventions for developing real confidence is. Is for parents to be our kids biased biographers. So tell the collect and tell those stories of where the kids struggled initially and then triumphed. I remember when you were first learning to swim and you were afraid to put your face in the water. And now look at your year of fish. I remember when you were first learning to ride your bike and you fell and you fell and you fell, and now look at you zipping around. I remember the first time you went to soccer and you were so nervous and you didn't know what to do, and now it's your favorite activity. So because we have that broader perspective, we can be their biased biographers and tell these stories of struggle followed by Triumph.

    KC Davis 35:42

    You and this idea of empathy is big, I think, because I just know there are people listening that when they heard the term dial back the accommodations, they bristled and they felt triggered and they felt because I think part of where a lot of this comes from is that we remember being children kind of raised by that, you know, be seen, not her generation, or that generation, that maybe we were undiagnosed ADHD or undiagnosed autistic, or we undiagnosed anxiety, and our parents were going, you know, get over it. Who cares? And so we're trying to do the opposite. But I think sometimes we might go too far, like, we're parenting out of a reaction of our own wounds,

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 36:24

    yes, and you can't make up for what happened before. Like, if that's your game plan, it's

    KC Davis 36:29

    not gonna work. Yeah, yeah. Like, because my parent was too tough and never gave me accommodations. Now I almost parent out of this fear, and I am over accommodating, over tiptoeing, over sort of like, you know, I'm almost like, making my kids anxiety worse, because, you know, I'm doing all these things. And so, you know, I know that you don't mean rip all the accommodations away, but I don't want to just specify that for the audience, because I do think that attuned, connected, empathetic caregiver saying, You know what, Honey, we're actually not going to do that right now. Or, you know what, Honey, we're going to do it anyways. Or we're not going to use this, you know, accommodation of this tool right now, right? And I know it's going to

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 37:16

    be hard for you. Yeah, that's so different. And I believe in you. I believe in you. I know you can do this, and you might even say, I'll be right here with you, or I'll see you at the whatever or so and so's gonna help you, or whatever. So the metaphor that I use with kids all the time, and sometimes with my adults too, is that you can't get used to the water by standing at the edge of the pool, so we really have to stay in the water, and what changes? You know, you jump into the pools like, oh my gosh, it's freezing. If you stay in the water, you're going to get used to it. That's just a physiological fact. Does the water temperature change? No. What changes is our perception of it. Now, if the kid wants to go in toe by toe, that's absolutely fine. I'm certainly a toe by toe person myself, but no amount of standing by the edge of the pool is going to get you used to the water. So the protecting the kid from feeling uncomfortable, it feels good to us, because, you know, we don't have to deal with the big fuss. And you know, we like the idea of being protective, but sometimes, and it's hard

    KC Davis 38:22

    as a parent, if you had parents that did not accommodate you, that were not empathetic towards you, that did not think about your need, it's hard, I think, when you had parents where you felt like your pain didn't even affect them, or didn't affect them the way It should, we never learn what amount of discomfort is okay for our children to feel and what isn't, because it is my job to protect my kid from some kinds of pain or to accommodate for some kind right? But I think sometimes, if you don't have that model, you don't know how much discomfort is appropriate, and you're we're all just kind of trying to figure it out. But I think, to your point, you know, knowing that it's not one extreme or the other exactly,

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 39:06

    and it's got to be both ingredients, the empathy plus the confidence. So one of my principles is that realistic expectations for kids are what they do pretty much most of the time now, or just a bit beyond that, we can get very tangled if we think about, you know, what kids ought to do, or what most kids could do, or what the younger sister could do. I don't care we deal with the kid in front of us. And so when you're thinking about, you know, what kind of accommodations might I start pulling back like I would recommend talking about it with a kid, you know, see, you know. And because I do this all the time in my practice, and I'll tell the kid, I will never push, but I will nudge, because I believe in you, and our job is to put our heads together. And I'll look for like we usually do, a scale of one to 10. Of because I don't know how bad something is for a kid. I cannot know that without asking the kids sometimes can't know either. So I'll say we're looking for something that's uncomfortable but definitely doable, and our job is to keep doing it until you're bored. So it's really about building confidence, rather than ripping away because they shouldn't. You know that that's not helpful well.

    KC Davis 40:24

    And one example is, you know, when you're doing, like, food things, like, if you have a really picky eater, or a kid that really has some stuff around food, I'll never forget, like, listening to a nutritionist that was talking about, like, Okay, your parents old school method of you have to eat everything. We're not doing that. Or you have to eat this before this. We're not doing that however. We're not just gonna go all the way over to eat anything you want, and it doesn't matter, and we're not gonna push you to try new things. But when she talked about the like, the steps you should be taking towards it, the first step was always the child tolerating it on their plate, right like, before we get to you have to take a bite. Even it's you don't have to eat it, but it does have to stay on the plate. Now, obviously, you're, we're listing depends on your kid. Oh, I have a sensory thing, a smell I can't do, right? But I just thought, like, that's a good example, not a rule, but an example of, like, how sometimes we might go to what we think is the first step of, sort of like pushing them past their comfort zone, but it's really like way back in the back there. This has all been so super helpful. Can you, like, just as we land the plane here, where can parents go if they're going, oh my gosh, this is so great. You know, what books have you written? What's your website? Tell us all the stuff where we can find you. So

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 41:37

    my website, for my main website, is Eileen kennedymore.com, e, i, l, e, e n, k, e N, N, E, D, y, M, O, O, R, e.com. So you can see my books there. I've written four books for parents. The most recent one is kid confidence. Help your child make friends, build resilience and develop real self esteem. I've also written four books for kids. Moody moody cars is for four to eight year olds. That's just such a joy. It goes freewheeling, full of feeling, traveling near and far. Honk if you see me. I'm a moody, moody car. So it has beautiful photos of antique cars, and I think they look like they have feelings. And I also have two books growing friendships and growing feelings for six to 12 year olds. And those ones, each one has little cartoon vignettes of common friendship problems, and then the narrator comes in and gives research based tips. And then wandering through the text are this cat and dog character that make goofy suggestions, like, he should sniff their butt, their butts. I'm like, No, he shouldn't. He should not sniff their butts. But it makes the kids laugh. It makes them feel smart because they know not to do that, but it's still getting the information in there. Yeah. And then my joy is the kids ask. Dr friend tastic podcast. You can find it on any podcast app that you like, or drfriendtastic.com Dr friendtastic.com you click on the podcast tab. And for accessibility, I have full easy to read pod transcripts there. There are always discussion questions also. So an interesting thing you can do is just play the episode up to the end of the kid question. Ask your kid, what advice would you give, and see what they say, and then play my advice. And then it always comes with a couple of a handful of discussion questions to deepen your kids understanding to and mostly it was about, have you ever had something like that happened? Or why do you think that it's so much fun? I'm

    KC Davis 43:31

    definitely going to check that out for my six year old. Can

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 43:34

    I tell you one of my favorite episodes there was this little girl named Vera, who is eight, and she asked, do we have to change ourselves to make friends? So my answer was, oh my gosh, my favorite questions and life, not just the podcast, are ones where the question seems simple on the surface, but the more you think about it, the more questions it raises. So what do you mean by change, and what do you mean by self? What do you mean by make friends? So I talked about how we are all different in different situations, different relationships. We also change over time. At the same time, we have a felt sense of authenticity, those moments where we think this is who I am or want to be, but sometimes we'll do something that's not exactly what we want, because it's what a friend wants, but that can be very authentic, because it taps into our deepest value of caring for the front and that's the foundation of friendship. So the answer to the question, do we have to change ourselves to make friends is no we have to show up as our most authentic, caring selves. So it's just, I like that and

    KC Davis 44:49

    like I think the difference making that distinction between authentic change, which is maybe I have a way of acting that I don't even maybe I don't like it either, but I can. How it's impacting people, and maybe I want to change that, and I want to be and like, that's an authentic change, versus a, you know, oh, I need to hide what I like, or, you know, what

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 45:09

    I think and what I feel, and I that's so cool. That's helpful. Is this really a balance so growing feelings, which is the second book for six to 12 year olds, that's about children's feelings about friends, because feelings don't usually come up in the abstract. You know, it's usually because they did that, whatever. So we talk about the feeling cycle, so or stories, feeling stories cycle, and it starts out with an event, and then as soon as that event happens, we start making inferences about what does this mean for me, for you, for our relationship, and those thoughts lead to feelings, and those feelings prompt actions, and those actions trigger reactions from other people, which could be setting the cycle of motion again. So what I find is a lot of the discussion about emotions nowadays is not taking the social piece into consideration, and that's really, really important. Kind of like that college girl who's like, You're bad, like, you know, she's just barfing out her feelings to be crude there, without any sense of what is the response you are hoping for and what kind of communication is most likely to get that that's not about being fake or manipulative. It's about being able to see beyond just, you know, this feeling that's happened in this moment. Can I expand my awareness both to what's going on with them and to what I really want? So I think that can be a really powerful perspective for kids, and each of those areas on the cycle are something that we can intervene with. I'll tell you one more thing. This is probably the best thing I ever invented, because it worked and it's, I call it a soft criticism. So the normal response to criticism for all of us is to defend, wow, it's not my fault. And you do it too, and they do it worse. That is just human nature. So the soft criticism is designed to get around that normal defensiveness. And I find this works with kids. It works with partners, it works with coworkers. So step one is you give an excuse. So you might say something like, I know you didn't mean to. I get that you were trying to do that. I understand that you were having a lot going on, or you were really tired, or whatever it was. The beauty of giving the excuse is, in order to come up with an excuse, you have to stop for a second. Imagine things from their point of view. Raises your empathy, lowers your anger. Great place to start. And just practically, if we give an excuse, they don't have to come up with one. And we can just skip that. And and you've put yourself on the same side with them, rather than against them. You're bad and I'm good, you know, like, that's not useful.

    KC Davis 47:51

    So see that working really well with kids? Well, really with anybody. But I'm going to use that with my kids too.

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 47:56

    But step two is the part we want, which is to describe the problem. And here, the formula we would use is, when you bad behavior, bad outcome. So you might say something, like, I get that you were really frustrated last night when you're trying to do your homework and your brother was making a racket. The same time when you throw your shoe at him, you could really hurt him. So like, we can be very specific here. And then step three is the most important, which is about moving forward. A lot of times, parents think they have to solve it. It usually works better if you get the kid to help you solve it. So ask a good question about, what can we do instead, or what can we do to prevent this? Or, you know, what can you do to help him feel better? You know, if the kid's crying or whatever, and you get the kid back on track with being a good kid, and we solve the problem together, rather than, you know, thinking, Oh, I gotta figure this out. No, let's figure it out together and see what we can do. So

    KC Davis 48:58

    that is really helpful, and I really appreciate the time that you've taken, and especially since I missed our time this morning, this afternoon, and I hope that you have a really great day.

    Dr. Eileen Kennedy-Moore 49:08

    Thank you. This was very fun. You.

    Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Christy Haussler
114: Why Budgeting Doesn’t Work (and what to do instead) with Jill Sirianni

I have an honest confession to make. I am a terrible budgeter, but I’m a world-class financial goldfish. In this episode, I’ll explain my “financial goldfish” status and budgeting for our neurodiverse brains. I’m joined by Jill Sirianni, host of the Frugal Friends Podcast. If you’re like me, and budgeting just doesn’t work for you, you’ll learn a lot from our conversation. Join us!

Show Highlights:

  • Characteristics of a financial goldfish

  • Budgets–the diet of the financial landscape (and they don’t work any more than diets do for most people)

  • Top reasons we fall victim to impulse buying

  • The myth of “Wants vs. Needs”

  • The downfalls of typical antiquated budgeting

  • Creativity in meeting needs without spending

  • Jill’s 90-day transaction inventory

  • Helpful online tools

  • A moral problem vs. a systemic problem

  • KC’s helpful hack to be more thoughtful before spending impulsively (like late-night DoorDash)

  • Jill’s tips for creating a pause before spending: keep a list and buy second-hand

  • Understanding the marketing behind sales

  • Making choices about your behavior today that may not align with spending habits held up as the “standard”

  • Understanding values-based spending

  • In finances, one size does NOT fit all. 

Resources and Links:

Connect with Jill Sirianni and Frugal Friends: Frugal Friends Podcast and Buy What You Love Without Going Broke book by Jen Smith and Jill Sirianni (pre-order now!)

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • Unknown Speaker 0:00

    Music.

    KC Davis 0:05

    Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care, the podcast where we talk about anything, everything, mental health, your well being, and try to talk about, you know, ways to take care of ourselves that actually work and work for our brains. I'm your host, Casey Davis, and I'm here with Jill Sirianni, who is the host of the podcast frugal friends, and we're going to talk about budgeting for our brains. Specifically because I am historically a very bad budgeter. I always used to, my husband's a big budgeter. I used to tell him, like, he's like, What do you mean you have a budget? And I was like, Well, I'm like, a financial goldfish. Like, I just have a general sense of, like, how much I have, and I just, like, try to only spend that, but then, like, if the tank gets bigger, well then like, my sense of what I can spend gets bigger. And anyways, the joke is, is that, like, I don't know if you know this, but a goldfish never stops growing, and it will grow to the tank you give it exactly, and I always become massive. I was like, I am a financial goldfish.

    Jill Sirianni 1:03

    I love that. I think most of us are like that. And really, there's nothing wrong with how you're describing your approach. Yeah,

    KC Davis 1:12

    I always tell him was like, I mean, I've never, like, put us in debt. And he's like, Yeah, but, but we could have so much more money if you just, like, stayed a small goldfish in a big pond. I'm like, Well, I'm sorry,

    Jill Sirianni 1:22

    it's not how goldfish

    KC Davis 1:24

    work. Yeah, that's not how goldfish work. But listen, I feel like this is one of those areas where, which is funny, because it's like cleaning where, like, there's so much advice out there that doesn't work for people who are neurodivergent. Do you have a take on that? Like, why that is?

    Jill Sirianni 1:41

    I think what you're describing here is the issue with managing personal finances, kind of across the board. I think most people would say budgets don't work for me. Budgets are kind of the diet of the financial landscape, and they feel so restrictive to so many of us, and so many of us have been taught it's been ingrained in us, whether overtly or covertly, that spending is bad, and if you're going to do a budget, then it's how can you spend as little as possible? And I think one of the things that we're trying to reframe, both in our podcast and in the book that we just wrote is being able to describe managing money as what works for you, being good stewards of the resources that you have, and not so restrictive with it, but recognizing that spending is a skill. We all spend money. We spend money every single day, and dispelling this myth of there are spenders and they're savers. No, we all spend money, and we can, just like any skill, learn to get better at spending that money, make sure that it is aligned with our values, with the way that we want to be spending and in a way that's going to be beneficial for our whole personhood. I've always

    KC Davis 2:59

    thought it was interesting how, like a lot of the big financial like advice givers, they make it seem like the issue. I mean, God, you nailed it on the head when you said that budgeting is the dieting of the financial world, because it is so similar. A lot of the big financial like advice out there acts as though it's a mainly, like, a character issue and a willpower issue, when really, like, it's a behavior and, like, we have a lot of science on like, what changes behaviors, but like, when I'm sitting like, yeah, if I'm sitting down, like, making a spreadsheet, yeah, sure, my morals and my like will to do differently in my values, like, come into play, but like, those are not the things like making the decision at 10 o'clock at night when I've had a bad day and I'm really hungry and I want to Door Dash food for the like, fifth time that week. You know what I mean? Like, it's those moments that I personally struggle with where it's like, okay, I have these long term goals, but I also have these, like, short term needs, but is it a need? And is it a want? And am I like, over moralizing what needs and wants are and and I just, you know, those are, like, the make or break moments. For me, it's not even like the big organizational things. It's like those moment to moment, like, I want a Starbucks drink. What do I do

    Jill Sirianni 4:19

    with that? Oh, Casey, everything that you're saying, there's so much congruence here. And I think just a lot of your messaging that I've been hearing from you, morally neutral care tasks is something that I hear from you a lot. And we like to describe debts, neutrality, spendings, neutrality that, yes, we are accustomed to, and we hear the voices of people assigning character issues to what we do with our money, and it's completely ignoring the fact that we've got History Society marketing tactics that are tapping into behavioral economics that are getting us to spend impulsively. They're tapping. Into what is known of the human psyche to be able to gain more money and make us feel as though we don't have what we need. And in order to belong, I have to spend money, and there is nothing wrong with us for then buying that thing or making that impulse decision. But that doesn't mean that we have to stay in that place. It doesn't mean we have to set up camp there and remain victim to some of these tactics that are happening unbeknownst to us, and then we're stuck wondering, why did I just buy that at 12am on Amazon? It

    KC Davis 5:38

    strikes me that we're like, bringing a water pistol to a gunfight when it comes to like, behavioral science, like people who want you to buy things are heavily invested, and like the science behind what makes you want things and make impulsive decisions, and, you know, makes you think you're going to be happier if you have this thing and all of that right? And like, on our side, there's not a lot of people giving us, like, helpful tips for the actual moment, besides, like, I guess, grip your, you know, white knuckle it like, just don't,

    Jill Sirianni 6:08

    right, just don't spend. Just stop spending, just budget. Just stick to your budget. Just don't impulse by and if that were realistic, then we will all would have figured it out by now, we like to talk about the top five reasons that we impulse buy. That's a question that a lot of our listeners are coming to us with, and when we're looking at spending as a skill and becoming better spenders, this is something that's really important to understand. It's not an exhaustive list, but it can be helpful to find ourselves. What am I most prone to here? So a lot of times it'll either be habit spending, whether it's time of day or location, it has just become a habit for us, and we are not even necessarily thinking about it or planning intentionally. It's just when I'm at the store, that's when I get a caffeinated beverage for myself. It could also be that we are shopping as an activity. It's just what we grew up doing on the weekend, and it's what we do for fun. It's how we were trained to enjoy ourselves in our leisure time. And so we just go out and shop as an activity, and we spend money we weren't necessarily planning on other times it could be stress, shopping or shopping because of any type of emotion that we're experiencing, whether we're happy or sad or celebratory. There's a lot of things that can play into what propels us to spend and it absolutely can be connected to our emotions. There's also social influence. So this is all of the social media, but it's also the people within our communities who they have XYZ it looks good in their kitchen, their lives look like they're functioning so well. And maybe if I bought that thing, my life would go smoothly too. And so I'm gonna get that or we follow people on Instagram who make things just look so beautiful. And we think if I buy that thing, I'll be cool, I'll belong, I'll have all the things just like they do. And the final one that we see really regularly is the thrill of the hunt. Just I like to dig. I want to find the deal. I like finding those red or yellow tags and getting that clearance, and I feel smart and powerful and engaged when I can get the thing, I can dig for it and find it so again, not an exhaustive list, but these are some of the top five ways that we end up impulse spending, and I think one of the first steps is identifying which one might I fall under until before we can then identify what could be next steps so I can be kinder to myself, kinder to my finances, and really make more beneficial Decisions, decisions I can feel really confident and proud of.

    KC Davis 8:53

    I feel like I can identify with a lot of those in the same target trip, right? Like, you know, you go to, like, there's a target right by my kids school. So, like, often I'll drop her off, and then you pass by this target, and you're like, you know what? Like, it would be fun to just stop and go in there, like, I don't really need anything, but I'm gonna go and then you go in and it's like, okay, there's like, a coffee shop in there. So you're like, Well, I'm gonna get myself a beverage as I walk around. And then maybe you see a few things you like, maybe you realize, like, oh, I need razors and some toilet paper, whatever. But, like, I also am, like, obsessed with the Joanna Gaines, like, set up and do it

    Jill Sirianni 9:32

    so well. They make it all look so beautiful. It's not how my house looks, but looks great there.

    KC Davis 9:38

    And I particularly always get sucked into, like, seasonal decor, which was fine the first day I the first year I lived in this house, because I didn't have very much decor. But what I find that I do is, like, I see it and it's so cute, and I get it, and then when I actually go to, like, get my decor out, I'm like, I already had this. That's embarrassing, or I had something that was so similar to this, like, it was silly of me to buy that, and it's all. Almost like there's this esthetic yearning. And I've even noticed this when I look at tick tock like, I'll see a tick tock of someone like, you know, making a stake over a campfire while they, like, look out their tent into, like, a rainy kind of like, and I'm like, wow, that feel like watching this feels peaceful, and I like that feeling of peace that I feel, and I want to go do that so that I can feel that peace again. But when I actually sit and think about like, what would I actually be feeling if I was sitting in a tent and it was muggy, it was raining, it's muggy, right? I'm cooking a steak, so the smoke is blowing in my face. I don't have, like, the seasonings that I would normally want for this steak. I'm gonna have to figure out, like, where, like, when I actually think about how I would be feeling if I was in that it's not peaceful. And I feel like I do the same thing with, like, shopping, right? You go in, you look around, and it's like, this setup is so esthetic. It's so beautiful. Like, look at this little coffee cup that's like a copper little coffee cup. And wouldn't I be so peaceful? And wouldn't I be so quaint? Wouldn't I be so cutesy, so demure, so mindful, if I was sipping coffee from my little copper coffee cup in the morning, right? And then I get it home, and it's like, worst case, it's like, oh, this bird, this scalds my fingers because it's copper. And then, like, best case, it's like, oh, now, like when it's sitting in between all of my mismatched mugs, like it's actually not bringing me. The thing that I felt when I was in the store,

    Jill Sirianni 11:34

    the one that gets me is the tiny carafe with the cup that can go over top of it. Have you seen these? Oh, I haven't bought one. Are you kidding? I'm like, it looks so adorable. Wouldn't that be so cutesy, so demure, so amazing

    KC Davis 11:49

    that people are gonna experience

    Jill Sirianni 11:54

    next to my bed. It's gonna be luxurious for me. And then I think in the middle of the night, I'm gonna be clanking glass around to drink your cup of water to dump it, right? Yeah, because it also requires that I had filled it up before I went to bed, like waking up my husband like it's just, it's not practical, but I love the idea of it, and I think you're really onto something here, and even you were describing the wants versus needs. And I think there's such a myth there, especially when it comes to this outdated approach to budgeting, it's well, separate your wants from your needs and only spend on what you need. And then it's like, well, how do I even define that? Because I need food, but what degree of food am I then allowed to spend on? Can the food be tasty? Can the food be organic? Can the food be cooked by somebody else, or does it have to be bland, cooked by me? I need to not like it, because it's all about deprivation. And I think one more like

    KC Davis 12:54

    the opposite, where in my head, anything I buy from the grocery store is fair game, because it's a grocery like I can buy, okay, I don't have to look at and, I mean, I'm blessed to not have to look at food prices when I go. I can just, you know, I can buy the brand that I want, but that doesn't, like, no Casey. You can't just, like, stop at the, like, summer decor aisle in heb and feel like that doesn't count because it's going towards the grocery budget. Like, doesn't work that way. One

    Jill Sirianni 13:26

    of the things that has been really helpful to guiding us in making some of these decisions, we love to talk about values based spending, aligning our spending behaviors with the things that we say are most important, but along those lines and kind of dispelling the myth of wants versus needs. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs has been super helpful. I'm sure you're familiar with it. It's that triangle of our various types of needs. And at the very bottom, you've got your physiological needs. That's your air, water, food, shelter. Then you've got your safety needs, of employment, health resources. Then comes love and belonging. Needs. This is where friendship, family, sense of connection comes in, followed by esteem, our own needs for confidence, respect, achievement, and then very tippy top is the self actualization, where we can find our meaning, our purpose, our creativity, our expression. And one of the downfalls of typical antiquated budgeting is it just wants to look at those bottom tier needs of what's the air, water, food, shelter, maybe resources and employment, and forgetting that we have all of these other needs that we can spend on. As long as eyes wide open, we feel like we're the ones who are making the decision, not being baited, manipulated into making those spending decisions, and so with some of these, and

    KC Davis 14:47

    you know, what's so wild about that is the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which I now know he like, kind of nicked from a an indigenous cultures like view of talking about those things. But. It was never intended to mean you need these things and more than these things, right? Like it was intended to describe that people cannot focus on this level of need unless the level of need below it is already secure. So it's not like a ranking of which needs are more important, necessarily, in terms of like, human fulfillment, it's that like, people can't focus on their need for creativity if they can't pay their rent. Do you know what I mean like? That's that like, which I feel like, is better explanation for what you're talking about, and

    Jill Sirianni 15:38

    it does help to describe, yeah, how we kind of move through those but in reality, once we do have some of those basic needs met, we will spend on trying to achieve some of the higher levels, maybe before some of those needs have been met in its entirety. It's not as if, oh, we only move on to level three once we've fully achieved level one. That's not entirely true, and we see that kind of across the board, like, oh, we go spend on our cars sometimes before we fully have all of our electricity bills paid. Well, yeah,

    KC Davis 16:13

    it's not supposed to be prescriptive, like, you can't move on or whatever. I think it's more of a systemic observation. Like, yeah, people are not gonna have the bandwidth to, like, look for, you know, all these other things, if like, there are some basic things that systemically are not being provided for them. So how do we tackle that?

    Jill Sirianni 16:33

    I think part of it is permission to recognize that we are whole people with varying degrees of need, and it is okay to spend money to meet those needs, and it's also okay to get creative on meeting those needs without spending money that some of what you were describing, both of us are describing. And what's this draw to esthetic? Why is what is it about this glass carafe water thing, or the seasonal decor that's making me want to spend on it, and it could be helpful to identify Is there a deeper need that I am trying to meet here? Is it a need for creativity? Is it a need for peace and stability? Is it a need for belonging? I'm not going to know that that answer for every person, but I think it is important to start to create those pauses and be curious with ourselves about the spending decisions that we're making. What is it about the seasonal decor that's drawing me in, and how am I going to feel about that purchase afterwards, is it going to create a sense of confidence that is going to solve for the need that I'm identifying, or is there a deeper need here where I could hit that need more accurately without buying this item, and I could meet that need in another way? And so that curiosity piece really is the first step we don't like to jump to, well, we don't really call it budgeting. We call it making a spending plan, but there's so much work that can be done and self understanding and kindness found before we even get to the action steps. I know a lot of times we want to jump there, but recognizing that our actions and our behaviors originate in our thoughts and our emotions and so beginning, there is the best place to start, and we recommend curiosity. Practicing curiosity with ourselves. This will be beneficial for every aspect of life, certainly finances. And one of the things that I like to describe with curiosity is avoiding the why question, not that there's anything wrong with why, but it really can put us on the defense when we're looking introspectively. It's the difference between, why do I always spend so much money on seasonal decor that I end up throwing away at the end of the season, to what is it about seasonal decor that I like so much? What does it give to me? Right? Such a big difference.

    KC Davis 19:02

    Wow, that's huge. Because why do I want this pumpkin? You know, it's like, first of all, I'm probably going to find a reason that means something about me that I probably don't, like, you know what I mean, like, Oh, I'm being impulsive, because I think it's going to be my life better, as opposed to, like, the kind of curiosity you're talking about, it's more likely to uncover something about myself I do, like, which is, like, I love that magic of holidays and my little kids thinking that everything is magical, and that feeling of like, comfort and warmth, like that is actually a good thing about me. And I think that, like you said, that's a better place to start, because then I can just ask myself with a lot of self compassion, like, okay, so is this stuffed pumpkin? Is that really going to get me closer to that, you know? And I, you know, to that point of, like, the first step being awareness. I think that, you know, that's something that's talked about a lot. Oh, first become aware of. First become aware. But I think the part that we don't say enough is that, like, it is totally appropriate to spend, like, an extended time in that space, like, literally before you change anything. Like, if you spent a week not making yourself change anything about your spending, but just asking yourself being become aware, like that moment of, like, you know, becoming aware of why you want the pumpkin doesn't matter if you buy the pumpkin anyways. Like, just, you don't have to pressure yourself to do that, but like to get the full picture without, like, the shame of shutting down or making the mistakes and things like that. Like, it is okay to spend some time just becoming aware. It's just not one journal entry process. This is a, yeah,

    Jill Sirianni 20:42

    it really could take weeks, and there's so much discovery that can happen out of that. When it comes specifically to our finances, one of because I know we do love tangible steps, one of the things that we encourage people to do is a 90 day transaction inventory, so again, not shifting any behaviors, just observing ourselves objectively, like that fifth grade scientific process we all learned. We're not bringing shame, we're not trying to shift anything. We're just curious what's going on here. And so that's gathering all of our credit card statements, bank statements, every transaction that we've made over the last three months, and making almost journal entries next to all of it. This is not going to necessarily be done in one sitting, depending on how many transactions there are, but it can be really helpful.

    KC Davis 21:29

    Are there any of those, like online tools that, like, do that automatically, that you found have been that are like, helpful or beneficial? Because I know that there are some out there that'll kind of like, try to give you a breakdown, give you everything

    Jill Sirianni 21:39

    we do like monarch money as an app for helping you to create a spending plan, but a lot of times, if you're not already using something like that, it can be just as easy to just download a CSV file of all of your transactions, especially if you've got a couple of different bank accounts, and so whether that's printed out or in a spreadsheet, creating another column where we are being curious about our emotions and learning who we are giving ourselves the opportunity to understand ourselves better. It's quite Invitational, and it can be quite kind to then look at okay, what happened here with this transaction, what had and how did I feel about it afterwards, what led me to spend on this thing? How did I feel about spending on it afterwards? And keep going down the list, we won't remember every single item, but it can help to bring our attention to when do I end up spending money that I wasn't intentionally I didn't want to spend intentionally? Are there certain times a day, is there a pattern that I'm seeing popping up here and from there, once we've done all of our curiosity and we're learning more about ourselves, and we're asking ourselves whether or not these things are aligned with the things that we would say are actually valuable, then it can inform some of the decisions that we might make from there, how we might curb some of the ways that we spend that we are now deeming this actually wasn't that beneficial to me. I thought that it was gonna get me time with my friends, but really, we were just at this loud restaurant. I could hardly hear anyone. I felt so overstimulated, and I went home stressed like but I just wanted time with my friends. So is there a different way that I could get time with my friends that might actually meet that relational need and potentially even help me financially as well? I feel

    KC Davis 23:34

    like that's such an important step, because I feel like some people who do that step are going to find, okay, there's a lot of areas where I maybe am spending money that I don't necessarily like, that I don't want to be anymore, or that I could spend in a different way. And then I think, though that, like, just as powerfully and important, there are people that will do this exercise and be like, Oh, I'm not the problem. The problem is, like, systemically, I'm having a hard time finding a job that will pay me a living wage, and the cost of housing has gone like, you might look down at it and go, Oh, shit. Like, this isn't my moral problem. Like sitting down and trying to decide, Okay, should I shop at the Aldi versus the heb because this one has three cents. Like, I feel like that is, it's like equal parts has the potential to cause despair, because you can feel like, you know, okay, I feel powerless. But there's also this part of it that is, like, very freeing when you realize that, like, society wants you to think it's your moral problem, when it is, in fact, a systemic problem, and like, the quicker we stop treating it like a moral problem, like a moral individual problem, and start realizing it's a systemic problem. Like, the faster we can figure out ways to live a meaningful life with those constraints, instead of kind of like spinning our wheels.

    Jill Sirianni 24:56

    Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like, I think, recognizing that there's so much bigger happening, although we do have to respond to what's within our power and our control to be able to shift in this narrative. And some of that is that awareness piece and choosing differently, but also recognizing we get so many people coming to us saying, Okay, I've got everything what now? And we're saying it's not always about cutting. It's not about deprivation. Sometimes it might be sacrifice, certainly, but we are aiming at easier nos and better yeses when it comes to some of these things, and certainly for some of us, it could mean bigger life changes that need to happen. It's not just the grocery store that we end up shopping at. But how can I make sure that I'm being valued in the place where I work is where I'm living still aligned with my season of life? Or is there an opportunity for me to rethink my living situation here, which is why we say a 90 day transaction inventory and include all of your bills and everything on it, because everything is up for negotiation when it comes to redefining what's going to be beneficial for us in our personal finance management, the top three areas of Our spending for most people is food, transportation and housing. And so transportation and housing decisions we're not impulsively, typically making. We're not making those decisions every single day, food decisions we are and so making sure that then we can kind of align our lives with that recognition in mind. Okay, what can I do to help some of the fluctuating food costs that are happening, but also realize it's not just about how much butter costs that week, but what is my housing situation like? What is my transportation situation like, and what is the money coming in? And are there bigger decisions that I can make here? Is there a decision, a one time decision that I can make that'll make everything else easier or unnecessary in the future, talking about just functionality. And

    KC Davis 27:07

    sometimes those are revolutionary. Like this is, I mean, I know people who are, you know, talking about multifamily households, intergenerational households, buying land and having a couple of houses with different like, sometimes these. And I think that's kind of what I was trying to get at. Is like, get at, is like, if we could, some of us, it's like, if we give ourselves permission to stop spinning our wheels over, like, Man, I feel so guilty that I use DoorDash and instead go. Maybe the system's not working, and what I actually have control over is like, looking at some revolutionary moves that I need to make that will have an impact on some of these, like, bigger financial things. I like that. So let me ask you a couple of, like, little things that I think have helped me, and like some advice I've heard, and tell me your thoughts on them, and then see, and then I want to hear if you have any other ones, right? There's this one on Tiktok that was so helpful to me, that was talking about that, like, esthetic trap, right? Because I get sucked into the Joanna Gaines setup. And her thing was, like, if you find something that you really, really want, one of her tricks was like, to take it to a different aisle, like, take it to the bathroom aisle with the towels and the, you know, whatever, and stick it and look at it. And she's like, sometimes the magic falls away when you're not looking at the whole, you know, like fake living room they've put there, you know what I mean? And I was like, that's such a good tiny tip for those moments where you feel like, Oh, what do I do? And then, like, I recently deleted DoorDash off of my phone, which isn't to say that I don't use it anymore, but now, when I decide to do it, I have to reinstall the app. First make the order, and then I delete the app. And that moment of pause, of like, extra labor has forced me to, like, take a moment, take a beat, because I will still order DoorDash. Like, I think the other day, I was like, we had a really rushed day, and I was like, oh shoot, I gotta feed the kids. I have these things I also need to do. And I was like, I'm just gonna order some DoorDash. Or like, wow. You know, my mom came over to listen to me read my book, my new book, out loud. And halfway through, I was like, You know what? I want to order us some lunch. This is so wonderful, but it's helped me not DoorDash a lot of times where it would have just been kind of that impulse that, like, it's 10pm And I'm cranky and I'm hungry, and instead of getting up and instead of getting up and making myself cheese and crackers, I'm just gonna DoorDash Taco Bell. So it's like that extra step I felt like was really helpful. So I'm curious if you have any other like of those small like behavior hacks, almost that have seemed to help people.

    Jill Sirianni 29:35

    Absolutely. I love that first example you gave. We must be in a similar algorithm, although the Tiktok that I saw was the trashcan method, where you take the item that you see in the beautiful like Magnolia section of target to the trashcan aisle, and that might be closer to how it might look in your own home. Not that our houses are filled with trash cans, but sometimes the quality of these things don't hold ordinary items wouldn't. It's not next to all of the other items within the display, and it can really help to provide a pause and an interruption. And that's really what you're describing, is how to create pauses and opportunities to be more mindful and intentional about the actions that we're taking as a habit. How can we implement this a little bit more? What are some of the ways we can interrupt ourselves and ultimately, eventually, this will have to become more and more intrinsic, but there are certainly some external things that we can be doing. One of the things that I particularly helps me is keeping a list of the things that I want to buy. So whether I'm scrolling Instagram or I happen to be on Amazon, or I'm over at a friend's house, and something, I see something or something breaks in my own home, and I'm like, Okay, gotta replace that. Rather than one click buying it immediately, I keep a running list of the things that I would like to purchase in my notes app on my phone that does a couple of things. It helps me feel as though I'm responding to the need. I'm valuing the fact that I had this urge and desire to want to acquire this thing that's valuable. There's a reason for that. I'm not ignoring it. I'm not stifling it. I'm giving it an outlet and a place to go. And it's not going away. It's gonna live there. It's not gonna live in my cart, and I'm not gonna get reminders of it constantly, bye, bye, bye, that thing, but it's there, and I know that it's there. Then when I'm out, I can be looking for those items and am I still interested? There are plenty of times that a week later, the thing gets removed, because I either found another solution to solve for that problem, or it's not hitting me the same way as it was before. I just don't think that I needed or wanted anymore. One of the other things that's important to me is buying second hand. So reducing, you know, the amount of waste that is being created is part for me of being a good steward of resources. So it also kind of allows me to give myself time and be patient in finding some of the things that I say that I want. Can I fix the thing that's broken? Can I find another solution within my home? Can I find it used pre owned, and then I might come to the point where I'm buying new if needed and necessary, and so that little bit of creation of pause is helpful also, as you're describing, removing ourselves from some of the email lists or the text messages that are reminding us to buy one of the tangible kind of software pieces that we recommend is unroll me. Think it's unroll.me and so,

    KC Davis 32:36

    yes, I've used it. You can, like you basically swipe left and right to unenroll from various things. Which brings me to another point about sales. I love your idea about a list, because one of the things, one of the rules that I have for myself is now, if I need something first, and I put it on a list, and I can wait for that thing to go on sale, but if something is on sale. Like, basically, in general, I've stopped utilizing sales because I found that I spent more money when I was using sale. When I was like, Oh, it's a big sale. It's half off. I need to whatever, whatever. If there is a large item that, man, it would really make an impact if I had a 50% off coupon. Or if this went on sale 20% like you said, like, I'll make a list. Like, you know, my kids are growing really fast, and there's a particular clothing company called primary that I love to buy from, and they're a little bit more expensive than target, but I found that they last them longer, and they're made a little bit better. And so, like, they're kind of a better investment. But if I know that, like, every August, because I'm a weirdo, every August, I inventory, like, coats, jackets, sweaters, long sleeve things, then I want to, like, buy for that season, or whatever, then, like, I know that I'm going to do that and I can wait and watch for their end of summer sale, right? As opposed to getting that pushed to me with a bazillion emails about, like, Wait, 20% off. Okay, let me go find something I wouldn't have otherwise bought. I do sometimes do the 24 hour cart thing, but only on Amazon because they won't send me emails. But that actually does help me, because I'll put it in my cart, but I won't let myself buy it. Then I'll be like, it's there. It'll be there tomorrow. And by the time I go back to that cart, you're right half the time, I'm like, okay, these were two things that I actually have some version of this. I just momentarily convinced myself that these things would be better, and therefore my life would be easier, and therefore I would have less stress, when, in reality, I'm just gonna end up with three of something that's similar and still feel stressed about it.

    Jill Sirianni 34:39

    I think it can be so helpful when we are able to educate ourselves with an understanding of marketing tactics and how much marketing tactics are playing into our psychology, our cognitive biases, our cognitive distortions that are a part of us can serve us well, but in many ways. Marketers are leveraging this, and it doesn't mean that we won't ever take advantage of a sale, or we won't ever impulse buy, but I think understanding it, we can feel more equipped and we can make better spending decisions for ourselves. Sales are not for us. Sales are for a company to make money, and as you're describing, usually there's going to be some sort of upsell. Most of the time. Sales are not really real sales. They've overinflated the cost to cut them just a smidge, but then they're going to sell you more on the back end to try and get you to spend even more. Bundle this, pair this with that customers also buy this. And so a lot of times, with the deals, the urgency, the fear of missing out these items are played into when it comes to selling us items. That doesn't mean that, you know, we can't get a 50% off here and there, but I think asking ourselves, what is behind me making this spending decision? Is it just am I feeling stressed about this right now, or is this something I did intend to buy? This will be helpful. It will make other decisions and actions easier or unnecessary in the future. I feel good about spending this then fine. But if we've been able to pause and say they've just created urgency in me right now, and it'd be okay if I come back to this decision tomorrow, we'd be better off spending the extra $2 the next day than spending the extra, who knows how much by responding to the sense of urgency and impulsively making a decision that we may or may not feel good about the next day. I

    KC Davis 36:36

    was ordering something that I needed the other day, and I got to the cart checkout, and it was like, You're $3 away from free shipping. You could pay $10 for shipping, but if you added $3 to this car to be free, and that's fine. But my new rule is that I have to find, if I cannot find something for $3 then I'm just going to pay for the shipping, right? Like, yeah, if there's a little $3 thing that I want or I need, fine, throw it in there. But like, I'm not gonna go then purchase a $20 item, because now I'm still spending $12 more than I would have if I just, like, that's helped me thinking less about like you said, We're for that the hunt the deal. But look how many items I got. Because in reality, it's usually not like items that are make or break survival. For me, it's just that feeling of, I've got a good deal. I'm getting so many things, but if I'm spending more money than I otherwise would, that is affecting, you know, these spending behaviors, especially when it comes to like, so there's a few things, and I love the advice that I've heard about, like, making choices about your behavior, the behavior you have today, not the behavior you hope you'll wake up with tomorrow. And what I mean by that is that I heard someone say once, like, if you have tried over and over and over to tell yourself, like, No more eating out, no more DoorDash, we're just gonna buy groceries, and you continue to do it like, let's just be honest with ourselves that whatever, that feeling, that guilt, that whatever, like, it's not working, and what's happening is that you're going out and buying a week's worth of groceries for your house and still doordashing. And you're telling yourself, because of moralizing, what I need to do is cut out the DoorDash. What I need to do is cut out the DoorDash. But let's be honest, you aren't and this guy was like, at this point, just stop buying groceries, like, lean into the behavior that you're already doing, because you would be spending less money if you would just do what it's clear you want or need in that season of life than, like, trying to be someone else. And this is my Instacart, okay, like my husband has pointed out a couple of times, like, hey, like, Instacart marks the prices up on each item, and then you pay, like, even if we have, like, the membership, so we don't technically pay for delivery, but like, they mark up every item there, and then there's a service fee, then there's a tip, right? And he was like, look at this list of what you ordered, it would be 20% cheaper if you just bought these items at the grocery store. And I had to tell him, I'm aware of that, Michael, but what you need to understand is that the grocery bill would actually be 50% higher if I walked into that store and saw all of the things that I you know, like, Oh, I'll get this. Oh, that looks good. But like when I sit down at the computer, I literally put my list into Instacart. There are no end caps, there's no little coffee shop, there are no impulse buys, because I have to search each item and then select what I want. And so like we are, in fact, spending less money on groceries when we use Instacart every week, then we would be if I was going into the grocery store and living in that reality of like, that's who I am. And this is not a thing that I have the capacity to sit down and like, really fix at the moment. Nor maybe do I need to, like, it's okay. I don't have to be perfect, like, I can work with who I am, not like this. Perfected version of who I think I need to be,

    Jill Sirianni 40:07

    yeah, our idea, our fantasized self, versus the realistic version of ourselves, and learning to honor that person, the person that we are today, I think this ties so beautifully into one of our principles that that we talk about, which is honoring your season with your money, recognizing where am I at right now in life, whether that has to do with levels of stress, with work, children. How old are the kids? Single, married, living situation, whatever it is, recognizing that our finances needs to be congruent with that we can and it's one of the reasons that these one size fits all financial experts. It's not working for people because we haven't made it individualized enough to recognize the needs of individuals and how that's going to shift the way that they make money decisions. It paying off debt as quickly as possible is not the best decision for everybody. Owning a house is not the best decision for everybody. There are these things that are held up as the standard, but in reality, it needs to look different given your season of life. And I think this is a very helpful, very tangible daily way of recognizing the season that you're in. To say, I do want to eat some food at home, but I need to pay for convenience. And that's worth it for me right now, because also I'm seeing that it is decreasing the level of impulse purchases that I'm making as well. So somebody might look at this and say that's a waste of money, but for me, in this season, raising kids, this is going to be the most helpful decision that I can make. It's efficient. It helps make other jobs easier or unnecessary for me in the future, and this is something I'm willing to pay for as a result of that. And I think when we can really take find that permission, take the guilt and shame out of it, be very fully aware of where our money's going, why it's going there, then have at it. We can even create space in the spending plan for impulse purchases. If we know that we like to go out and we like to be able to get ourselves a little treat. Fine, make room for it. This does not have to be deprivation. It just needs to be eyes wide open so we can be certain we're making beneficial decisions for ourselves that are serving us, not just serving corporations.

    KC Davis 42:35

    I like when you talk about, like, values based spending, and I feel like one of the things that you are really emphasizing is that, like, I don't think that necessarily that sentence like values based spending is like, revolutionary. But what is revolutionary is that you're emphasizing that it actually be your values, because we have such internalized set of like, what the value should be like, we should have no debt, we should not impulse spend. Shopping shouldn't be to, you know, change your feelings. And it's like, I mean, if you're having a bad day and you want to go, like, obviously, I'm not saying like this, like, reckless overconsumption, but like, make sure it's your values. Like, like, you said, like, you can value convenience and that doesn't have that's not like, morally worse than valuing like, you know, homegrown, you know, made from scratch. Food, you know, it's not one of those is not inherently better than the other from like, a character perspective,

    Jill Sirianni 43:29

    right? And it just might be. Then you make decisions on what are your easy nos as a result. Don't say the hard nos. Don't deprive yourself of the thing that is a lifeline for you, but find the things that are easy to say no to for me, I don't have a value for luxury handbags or high end clothing or super expensive skincare products, so that's easy nose for me. But I do love travel. I do love a really nice dinner out with friends, so that's where I'm going to be spending my money to get at some of the things that are just super enjoyable for me and for all of the other things I can get creative on how I can meet my internal needs. Sometimes, even without spending money, it doesn't even always require the super nice dinner. Sometimes it's having a potluck with friends.

    KC Davis 44:23

    I'll tell you, like my closing story on this. But you know, my husband is a corporate attorney, and so he works a lot, and one of the things that, like, we had to kind of get clear on was, like, that we value money that saves us time. Because the reality is, like something that like you. If I say, like my husband and I will Door Dash like a Gatorade and a can of dip. And you might think, like, that's so wasteful, that's so over the top, that's so silly, like, why can't you just go to the whatever, whatever, right? But the truth is, oftentimes, like the difference between you. Like, my husband getting home and time to put the kids to bed, and missing bedtime is like, the 30 minutes it would take, or even the 20 minutes it would take for him to, like, pull off the highway Park, go inside a gas station, get what he needs. And even if someone was like, oh, okay, well, he could go out after that. Well, like, Yeah, but then, like, I want to hang out with him. You know the amount of times that we are, like, ordering dinner, and he's like, let me just go get it. I don't want to pay and I'm like, I want to buy back that 45 minutes with you. I just want to get it delivered. And, like, when we started thinking of things that way, like, you know, we're not someone that has a lot to show for how much money we spend in the year, at the end of the year, but that's because we realize that we value experiences and not even, like big vacations. Like we don't even really do that, but like, we value being able to see our family a lot in the year and go see them, and we also value just like, making our life easier and buying back as much time as possible to spend with each other.

    Jill Sirianni 45:58

    I think it's one of the reasons that to kind of go backwards with it, that some of these financial experts have become so big in their one size fits all, is because it can be easier to just say, Do this, don't do that. Do this, don't do that. But what you're describing, and what I'm describing, is this, getting to know yourself more and finding these foundational principles of efficiency and contentment and honoring our seasons, that takes a little bit more of introspection and kindness towards ourselves to say. How do I understand what this looks like for me, and how does that then inform the decisions that I make with my money, it's a lot more fluid. It's not as cut and dry, but it can lead to so much more freedom and permission in the ways that we choose to spend our money that is going to be completely different from somebody else and still both doing it right or okay when in beneficial ways. So it's a beautiful thing when you can start to grasp but it's not necessarily something that can happen overnight, to be making these intentional decisions feel good about it, even if somebody else might say that's not the best way to be spending your money like well, maybe not for you, but for me. These are the decisions that I've made, eyes wide open with the money that's coming in, this is how I want to steward all of the resources that are given to me, including time. It's the really, the only finite resource that we have. So if I can use some of my money, as you said, to buy back some of that time, fantastic. Well,

    KC Davis 47:40

    Jill, thank you so much for this conversation. And can you sort of tell the audience what, where they can go to get more of you, more of your excellent advice. Tell us about the book. Tell us about the podcast. Tell us everything.

    Jill Sirianni 47:50

    Yeah. Well, thanks so much, Casey, it's been so fun and an honor to be with you and your listeners. We just wrote a book called buy what you love without going broke, and it can be purchased at buy what you love book.com it's on pre order right now, but it will be shipped out to everyone who purchases in January. And then we put out a podcast two days a week, Tuesdays and Fridays, frugal friends. Podcast, wherever you listen to your podcasts.

    KC Davis 48:17

    I love that. Thank you. Jill Have a great day. You.

    Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Christy Haussler
113: Balancing Self-Care and Community Care with Nat Vikitsreth

This episode is about liberation, revolution, and social justice. We are tackling these topics from a practical perspective with my guest, Nat. Join us!

Nat Vikitsreth is a licensed clinical social worker who works with families who want to practice social justice in their daily lives but are torn between acting in their communities and at home. She helps them bridge the gap despite being tired, overwhelmed, and stretched too thin. Holding space for their beautiful intentions and walking with them on this journey are Nat’s passions.

 

Show Highlights:

  • Nat’s background as a transgender woman from Thailand who has become a clinician and a social justice organizer

  • Trying to honor our values about liberation at home and in the community

  • Being your own ally first with agility and awareness of your available bandwidth

  • Learning to hold space for accountability

  • The root causes of our suffering: white supremacy, colonialism, capitalism, and patriarchy

  • Leading with compassion in action instead of punishment

  • What it means to be truly humble

  • Nat’s advice for parents

  • Finding the sweet spot between discomfort and boundaries

  • Being realistic in your family about what causes you can support and take action on with your limited capacity

  • Nat’s words of advice about actions beyond the “sexy actions” to take

Resources and Links:

Connect with Nat Vikitsreth: Website and Come Back to Care Podcast

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:05

    Hello, you. Sentient ball of stardust. This is struggle care, and I'm your host, KC Davis, and we're going to be jumping into a topic today about liberation and revolution and social justice. But you know what? We're gonna get really, really practical with it, because as I say those words, some of you maybe feel inspired and energized, and maybe some of you feel exhausted and overwhelmed. And so I'm here right now with Nat wicked said, and I practiced that last name a few times. Did I do? Okay,

    Nat Vikitsreth 0:41

    it was beautiful. Casey. Okay, thank you. Thank you.

    KC Davis 0:45

    I'm so glad to have you here. Can you just share with the audience you know who you are and what you do and why you're so passionate about the topic today, absolutely,

    Nat Vikitsreth 0:55

    I get to work with families who really want to practice social justice in their day to day life, and they're torn between doing it in their communities and doing it at home with their families. And I get to help them bridge that gap. And a lot of the families that I get to work with, which is such a huge honor. They are tired, they are overwhelmed and stretched so thin. Yet tension is there, yet they have this wound from their childhood that keeps getting in the way when they want to practice those beautiful social justice intentions, so I get to hold all of those pieces together and walk with them on this journey awesome.

    KC Davis 1:49

    And can you share with us a little bit about your identity and your heritage and how some of these issues of liberation are really close to your lived experience and your passions?

    Nat Vikitsreth 1:59

    I was born and raised in Thailand, in a Thai, Chinese family, and as a transgender woman who's also a social justice organizer and a clinician, I get to combine all of the things that I love into my work with families. I started out as a sex worker and doing social justice organizing amongst our trans sex worker community in Thailand. And then I moved into working with little children with autism, and I just fell in love with working with little children and families.

    KC Davis 2:39

    That's amazing. The you know, the two things that I really wanted us to get in today, and they kind of mirror each other, is that I feel like a lot of people struggle with this idea of self care versus community care, so it feels as though they're having to choose between. How do I take care of myself so I don't feel overwhelmed, so I don't feel in despair. But how do I also stay plugged in to maybe the world stage and what's happening to other people that are being oppressed and being marginalized and and it feels like they have to pick between one or the other. And then, very similar to that is, you know, something you spoke to, which is people who are parents, who are going, Okay, I, you know, I would love to be involved in some of these issues, but I don't have the time, you know, to go out and be in a protest, or maybe I don't have the time to organize or be involved. I feel like everything is kind of right here at home. And, yeah, I guess I want to teach my kids about these things, but is that enough? Like, can I really not do anything outside the home, but I do want to do want to do some things outside the home, and it kind of feels like there's not enough time and energy to do both. So I'm hoping that people at home, whether they're parents or whether they're childless, or whatever their family situation, is this idea of trying to honor our values towards liberation in our homes and in our communities and in the broader kind of like, world stage, like, I just want to acknowledge, like, it's super difficult.

    Nat Vikitsreth 4:05

    It is, especially when we play by the script written by white supremacy, capitalism, colonialism and patriarchy that's centering us, our individual will and our individual action, where, if I don't take action, I am failing as a human right. The same thing applies here, that if we center our will and our action instead of our collective action and liberation, then we just fall into that trap that the oppressor want us to fall, which is, oh, it's, it's too big for me, then I'm not going to do anything. So what I often say to people who want to take action but are so tired is that we must be our own ally first before being our. Eyes to other people, and that means, instead of focusing on what's the right strategy that I need to do, what if we focus on agility, where let me check in with my bandwidth? Do I have enough to step in and take action? And we'll get into details about what the options can be based on disability justice movements and things like that. Or do I have just enough bandwidth to step back a little bit Fill my cup, and once it's filled, I can step back into action? That's the agility. How much bandwidth do I have, and what can I do?

    KC Davis 5:44

    And I appreciate that what you're describing is an embodiment of a fluid movement, because I feel like where a lot of us get stuck sometimes is that, you know, you'll hear someone say, I don't know what's going on in Palestine because it's all too overwhelming, and I have anxiety, and then you'll have this kind of flood of people that will really say, like, how dare you. How privileged of you. I'm sure people in Palestine would love to turn the TV off and not think it. And it's not that there's not some truth, because there are people who say that from a perspective of, you know, I don't want to be involved or, or, oh, I want to center my comfort and let like there's some validity to we don't just get to unplug because it's uncomfortable. But at the same time, I feel like sometimes that white supremacy motive of like, if you are not acting, you're a bad person, morally, gets used and weaponized even within social justice communities, where we're policing each other and but then you have the people that aren't doing anything, weaponizing even that, and being like, well, you're not allowed to police me. And it's like, well, and it's so it's like this whole mess of, is it accountability, or is it policing? Is it self care, or is it sticking your head in the sand? And, and, you know, I know, even personally, like I've had friends call me and say, I really don't want to be the person that just puts their head in the sand, but I am really struggling. I feel like, if I'm, you know, if I'm on tick tock, and a video comes up talking about the genocide in Congo, I feel like, if I scroll past it, I'm being a bad person, because I should look, and I should pay attention. And then you'll have people that say, you know, and so there's this interesting tension there to me, where it is, you know, at some point, yeah, if I'm just saying, Oh, I have the privilege to not have to look at anything distressing that doesn't feel right, but at the same time, forcing myself to never be able to opt out of something distressing is now overwhelming my system to the point I can't take any action.

    Nat Vikitsreth 7:51

    Yes, Casey, thank you so much for naming Congo Palestine and the lives of children that are being lost and children that are being starved, right? And this tension is so needed. If any of us is feeling that tension, it indicates to me, humbly that we're in the ring. We're taking action, we're getting into the mess. So why not give ourselves a little bit of grace and and this conversation just came up in my community too, when I work with black indigenous youth organizer of color, that we just want to take action. We just want to take action. We want to jump in because the global injustice is so strong, we must hold ourselves accountable, and we need to take pause on that idea of accountability as punishment and disguise. It's really difficult to hold someone accountable, and the alternative is to hold space for accountability. Let me

    KC Davis 9:09

    sit with that for a minute, because, you know, I've had a lot of interesting experiences with kind of that word accountability in a community sense, where, you know, where I've almost had these thoughts of like, you know, accountability is not something you can force onto someone else. It's only something we can take for ourselves, and then at the end of the day, sometimes, you know, I'll take accountability, but the other person doesn't think that I have or I didn't do it in a way that they wanted to see it, or it wasn't good enough, or there's some, you know, accusations about my motives behind it, and it's hard to be in that space where, okay, I don't want to be too defensive, and I want to look at myself and I, you know, then you almost get in this rabbit hole of, I don't know if I know that I have blind spots, but am I always. An unreliable narrator to my own reality, yes,

    Nat Vikitsreth 10:02

    right, like you can't see what you can't see, and that narrative of okay to be accountable, I need to take action, otherwise I'm going to be punished. And then to your that accountability can only look like a, b and c, otherwise it's not accountable enough or accountable in the wrong way. So we end up policing one another into conformity, where in my trans community, when we organize, we often aim for how do we be different together, different in our interventions, different in our strategies, and even different in our values. So when we hold space for someone to be accountable to say it differently, it means I love you so much. What support do you need to take action?

    KC Davis 11:01

    Gosh, and think about how different that is, to hold space for someone else, to be accountable, to come to them and say, you know, I love you so much. What do you need right now in order to, you know, take a look at what's going on with you and start to take steps towards, you know, what feels more aligned with your values?

    Nat Vikitsreth 11:23

    Yes, yes. I'm

    KC Davis 11:25

    kind of curious as we're talking and I'm gonna Google it real quick. I feel like accountability is one of those words, and I'm kind of curious what that like. Can I get a definition? Of course, it's gonna tell me how to make an email account. Okay, accountability, responsibility, okay, let's see. Let's see. Let's

    Nat Vikitsreth 11:46

    see. I

    KC Davis 11:48

    want someone to give me to make an account,

    Nat Vikitsreth 11:52

    to make an account, to make,

    KC Davis 11:57

    to make an account of one's behavior. Let me see if that says something. I

    Nat Vikitsreth 12:08

    can always cut this off.

    But I thought that we're exploring and learning. Yeah, we're in real time. We need this

    KC Davis 12:20

    because something tells me that to make an account doesn't mean just saying you were wrong or just saying, you know you agree with someone or I don't know. It's interesting

    Nat Vikitsreth 12:37

    to me, yeah, and I'm approaching this idea of accountability Casey through the lens of transformative justice, meaning that we look at the root causes of our suffering, and it's again, White supremacy, colonialism, capitalism and patriarchy, and because we're swimming in this water together, it's really hard for me to fault you for hurting me without understanding the root causes. So when hurt and harm happens, the community comes together and ask, yeah, we're surviving under the same systemic oppression. How do we move through it together without involving the police, without saving one another? Like, what do we need to move together forward?

    KC Davis 13:36

    Hmm, okay, here's some interesting things. So to call someone to account means to hold them accountable, to blame them or to reprimand them. It could also, which is an interesting right, but it says it could also mean to ask for an explanation of something. For example, the people responsible for the accident must be brought to account. It says synonyms of call someone to account, include blame, cast a stone, hold responsible. It's interesting how deeply entwined those things are with this idea of blame and how that's not, that's not like quite it. But I love this idea of like to call someone to explain, or to examine or to you know, and what's interesting, I think, is this idea of like to call someone to account as the idea of asking for an explanation, it's almost like I'm not coming in with this, like I know that you're wrong, but it's like this looks strange. This looks concerning. Let's come to the table and talk about it, because maybe I don't know all the information, or maybe you're needing some help, or maybe there's something that you need from us, and I think that's an interesting way to look at it. I.

    Nat Vikitsreth 15:01

    And that's compassion in action. Instead of leading with punishment, let's explore what your needs are. How can we show up for you? How do we move together through this? And to me, that's accountability, and I'm so struck by the definition of blame and cast a stone which is so deeply embedded in our cultural narrative, the punishment piece right where the military force in Israel also has that texture of punishment, and they're training the police force in the US again, same texture of punishment, and it trickles down into our home when we try to, quote, unquote, hold our children accountable for their behaviors. And is it truly accountability, or is it punishment that

    KC Davis 15:57

    is like the words you hear as you will hear Israel say, we will hold these terrorists to account. We will hold them accountable. And then, you know, we have mass bombing of civilians. And so it does make you think, gosh, do we even have the right words to describe what we want to be talking about now? And I think you know, we're our own first bully when it comes to these things,

    Nat Vikitsreth 16:18

    yes, and it serves the system of oppression so well when we keep blaming ourselves and shutting down and not taking action because of shame, and that keeps us stuck in cynicism and despair, instead of mobilizing Together with our neighbors, with us with each other. And I always say this Casey, because I work with parents who are so stretched so thinly across every direction, especially now back to school season, that across races, places and classes. We all want our kids to have better lives than we had, but we're surviving, trying to get through the day in one piece, paying the bills, putting food on the table together without a lot of support right, like structural child care, paid parental leave and so on. So sometimes we're left with our tiny bandwidth to only teaching our little ones how to survive, and if we pause long enough, we can hear our wisdom that says, But teaching my kids how to survive the system is not the same as giving them a different childhood, like we all know this, right? So I think lots of grace to ourselves trying to do what we can. Yeah, it

    KC Davis 18:00

    reminds me, too, of, I think one of the biggest things that I learned when I got sober was, you know, I had really poor self esteem, and I wanted high self esteem, right? And I focused so much on that, and I realized, and I think it's actually, it might actually be like a CS Lewis quote, where he talks about, you know that, like, Oh, God, I'm going to butcher it, but something about the fact that, like, it's not about thinking higher of yourself. It's thinking of yourself less. It's not trying to fix how you think about yourself. It's trying to adjust the amount you think about yourself.

    Nat Vikitsreth 18:42

    Oh, and how did that unfold for you in action?

    KC Davis 18:46

    I think because, you know, when I thought that I was so awful and worthless, I was thinking about that all the time. I was interpreting all of the events around me as being about that. And then I got sober, and I started being like a productive member of society. But what I noticed was, even though I'm not doing these quote, unquote bad things, like, I'm not stealing, I'm not, you know, cheating, I'm not lying, I'm not being self destructive, I'm doing good pro social things, but I'm still thinking about myself just as much. And does this Okay? That makes me a good person, okay? That makes me Okay, okay. That makes me lovable. And I think the real freedom came when I just stopped thinking about what things meant about me in general. And I feel like that's like one of those first steps you're talking about, which is, is possible to think about what's the right thing to do without first thinking, like, how am I going to feel about the right thing to do? What is the thing to do? What does it mean if I don't do the right thing? What does it mean if I don't like, you don't have to have like, like a self reflection filter about your worthiness. You know what I mean,

    Nat Vikitsreth 19:56

    absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just so curious if I can ask a follow up question that thinking of yourself less, did that transform at all along your journey as you're practicing liberation or anti racism, at becoming an ally and accomplice? You

    KC Davis 20:19

    know, I think that, I mean, I come from a pretty liberal family that's always been involved in social justice causes, but what I found is that that happened as I deconstructed from evangelicalism. And I didn't deconstruct from faith completely, but I deconstructed from that sort of Puritanism, and that was the big part. And I remember the CS Lewis quote. It was about humility. It said humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less

    Nat Vikitsreth 20:51

    that is powerful,

    KC Davis 20:53

    which I think is powerful, especially in regards to social justice, like if we you know, we talk a lot about how important it is to be humble, and, you know, thinking about how awful you are for not taking action is also not being humble. That's like thinking about yourself a lot and kind of making it about yourself. Yeah,

    Nat Vikitsreth 21:16

    because another thread that we talk about a lot in our movement work is, who do we center, and who do we decenter? And the tension that we talked about in the beginning is there where it's such a human thing that we are hardwired for belonging. So of course, we're going to examine, Am I doing the right thing? Am I doing enough? Am I hurting someone? And on the other side of the same coin for us to move towards liberation together, it's not about me, it's not about you, it's about us. So is this action moving us closer to our values? What we the question that the parents in our come back to care community ask is, what's adaptive right now?

    KC Davis 22:14

    And where do parents start with that? Where do they start with, okay, I don't have enough to do. You know? I don't feel like I have enough to do 100% at home or 100% in the community. And so, you know, what do I do from here?

    Nat Vikitsreth 22:30

    Yeah, and it starts with how much bandwidth do I have, realistically, brutally, honestly speaking,

    KC Davis 22:39

    right? And do you encourage people to think of bandwidth, like, as because this is something that I feel like a lot of people struggle with, is that if you ask me, like, Can you do it? This is something I get onto my husband a lot, because he'll be like, Well, he'll be doing something at like, 11 o'clock at night. We were like, in the middle of, you know, doing something together, and he'd be like, well, they asked me if I could do it. And like, technically, I can, and I'm like, but can is more than just, are you physically able to do it? It's also about like, you know, there are other things in your life that you're allowed to prioritize. And like, am I looking for? You know, my bandwidth on a scale of one to burnt out, like, am I responsible for doing everything right to south of the, you know, one point before burnout, that's a hard question. What? Even, just like that first question about bandwidth,

    Nat Vikitsreth 23:34

    that is, that is, oh my gosh, I love this so much. Because how do we know? Especially growing up surviving capitalism, we, all, most of us, are trained to override our discomfort and produce and produce and perform and perform.

    KC Davis 23:54

    And I have this theory that that is why that is not only responsible for us overworking, but I think in places where we selfishly prioritize our own comfort or selfishly take more than we need, I think that comes from that same system, because if you know this system is going to push you until you break, and it's not going to give you your fair Share, the only way for you to not break is to just take what you can. Oh, you know, like it's, I think of it this way, like, if you never believed that, let's say that, like you have parents that every day when you woke up if you were sick, they never believed you and made you go to school anyways. Well, then you would eventually learn that, like, the only way for me to take care of myself is to be overly dramatic when I'm sick, or to, you know, to have to lie and manipulate and take more than what I need. And then I'll say, Well, okay, then if you won't let me rest, then I'll lie and say I'm gonna go work on homework, and instead, I'll go do this. You know what I mean? It's like. That sort of like, I have to be super comfortable all the time. I wonder if there's like, that flip side of the coin

    Nat Vikitsreth 25:07

    again, Casey. It's how the societal thing trickles down into our home, and then it gets reinforced. And when those who raised us weren't holding space and reflecting back, oh, you're sick. What do you need? Your body might need rest, and rest is equally important than productivity. Then how do we know? When are we overriding our limits? Right? And I had to relearn what that feels like in my body, and it's so dependent on you and your background and intersecting identity. But for me, I had to find that sweet spot Casey between discomfort and boundaries. Because yes, if I'm going to take action for justice and liberation, it's going to be past my discomfort, because risk is involved. But how far can I push that? It's not going to go beyond my physical, spiritual boundaries, and for me, if it goes past my boundary that I set, it becomes people pleasing, right? That I'm gonna do this because I want to be perceived as a good ally, as a good human, as a person who knows what she's talking about. I know that my throat will close up, palm sweating, yeah, was

    KC Davis 26:42

    talking about deconstructing from evangelicalism a minute ago. I think another big part of that is like having to deconstruct this idea that punishment is purifying, that like that, like pain is atoning. Because a lot of times, you know, I was talking to a friend recently, and they were talking about that same thing, about, like, scrolling on the end. It's like, okay,

    Nat Vikitsreth 27:06

    it's like, it's

    KC Davis 27:07

    a video of, you know, some really pick your tragedy, whether it's, you know, a black woman being murdered by the police, or, you know, people starving and Congo. And it's like, every I'm making myself watch it, and I'm not gaining any new information. From the video. I'm not being inspired to more action by like there's no there's no new information there for me to gain, to inform my actions in this it's simply that I feel as though being assaulted by the distress and the trauma of it is like making me a good ally, or that it would be selfish to not have to look at it because, you know, oh, now I feel so guilty about how privileged I am, and it's that interesting. Like, what do you think just putting yourself through the pain of witnessing that over and over and over is doing because if it's not giving you more information,

    Nat Vikitsreth 28:09

    right, and it drains you even further from the little bandwidth you have left to go take Action and this idea of self punishment that runs deep. That runs so deep, Casey, and then we mistake that for that's me being an ally for the day, consuming that information, hurting myself, right? And when I see parents that I work with who do this, and they love their kids so much, and as they're scrolling, and then their kids come in, bidding for connection, they snap, yell, the cycle continues. So I think a lot of us know this pattern so well. So what are the alternatives that we can spend our energy on?

    Yeah, I will say one thing that has

    KC Davis 29:08

    really helped me is finding sources of information that I can proactively seek out as a and letting my and not like feeling like I have to consume every piece of information that's pushed to me, pushed to you, yeah? So if that's yeah, so that's like a reputable news site, or maybe one account that I can go and look up and see because they're giving updates on a situation. Or if it's like an organization that has sort of taken on something as their you know what they're talking about in action items like somewhere else that I can go, you know, whether it's once a week or once a day, and go, Okay, hey, what's going on with that situation XYZ and where I'm proactively like, made like, being knowledge. Or like being aware, like I'm proactively being aware, instead of just like reactively dealing with information being pushed to me about whatever that topic is.

    Nat Vikitsreth 30:10

    It takes so much self awareness. I'm not shaming social media. I'm human, and I'm on Instagram search page looking for cute animal videos, mainly squirrels and red pandas. And I love it, yeah for my body and my nervous system, the first five minutes, so blissful. I love it so much watching these fluffy animals. But beyond that, I start to notice my body just my brain turning into mush. I'm feeling kind of numbed out, and that tells me, Okay, I gotta put the phone down. So hard to do, but it's time. So it takes a lot of self awareness to know what your limits are and how much information do you need to go take action.

    KC Davis 31:01

    And if we're to talk about taking action, I feel like the actions that get PRI like, there is definitely a hierarchy of actions to take in, like, various liberation movies, right? And I feel like the top of that hierarchy is like, very like, patriarchy, coded, right? It's like people who can go out and be in protests in black block with their signs, and people who can make several videos a day, you know, updating a situation. And I'm just thinking about, like, all of these women who are, like, nursing babies and making dinner and, you know, like, I can't, like, there was a protest in my area the other day. And, you know, I don't know if you guys are super plugged into protest, but like, you don't often have a lot of time to be aware. Like, they'll tell you, like, tomorrow, six o'clock City Hall. And like, I would love to be a part of that, but like, I almost never can get childcare that quickly, right? You know. And sometimes you know, if you know, hey, it's a school board meeting in six weeks and an important issue is coming up. And like, okay, you can arrange for that. But you know, going to a school board issue isn't at the top of the hierarchy. No,

    Nat Vikitsreth 32:17

    it's not sexy, right? We often aim for sexy actions that are going to get the most coverage, the most visibility, the most Look at me.

    KC Davis 32:31

    I'm doing the and how do you help? We know when you talked about capacity, and I was thinking of capacity in terms of how much can I be involved in. You know, the causes that matter, but how do you talk to families about capacity, just of how many causes they can realistically keep tabs on and be active in at any given time? I mean, I remember, you know, I had a, this is like a little vulnerable to say, but I have, I for maybe eight months now, I've been running a campaign for Palestinian relief, and then, you know, I have a young child that's autistic that has eloped a couple of times, and one of the last times that it happened, the sheriff's department came over to visit with us and said, Hey, there's this program called Project Lifesaver, where We can issue a tracking bracelet to your daughter, and if she were to ever get away from you, like, we could find her within minutes down to the foot of where she is. And, you know, it's a free program, but there's a waiting list, and when they came to give it to her, you know, I asked, like, how many people are on the waiting list now? And he was like, Yeah, it's like, 50 families. You know, we're not, we're run by donations. We don't have any grants. We don't have any funding, like, so and so, like, I really wanted to, I talked to my husband about and I was like, I feel like we could get people together and clear this waiting list. And so I made a fundraiser for it, and I made a video for it, and when I went to, like, put it on the top of my link tree. You know, it was like, okay, that the Palestinian fundraiser raised a ton of money. And I had this moment of like, Am I allowed to do this? Do I have to keep them both on there is someone going to be angry with me, because I understand the genocide is still happening. But now I've switched to talking about this other issue, which is like a local issue, and it there was some conflict there. And so, like, how do you help families? Think about, you know, how many like am I like? Should I be keeping up with everything? And at what point is it me being selfish by only looking at, you know, the ones that affect me or the ones in my local community? Because surely, we need people to do both. But how am I supposed to think about

    Nat Vikitsreth 34:41

    that? Yes, oh, Casey, I'm letting that sink in. Right. When you talk about mobilizing people in your community for that program, there's that creativity and generativity and vitality in organizing. Your local community. Yes, it stems from a real need, but there's that generativity in there, right? That we often don't talk about. We talk about the suffering of, oh, I need to organize and mobilize to address this real issue. It's real. And when we gather people and we address the issues together, it's beautiful, right? And that's hope that I hope it can refuel us to do this work. And to your point about, how do I choose? There are 5000 issues, and the tension is, yeah, we can't be everything for everyone all the time with our limited capacity, but we keep our clear eyes and heart on the political analysis. We know that the issues in Palestine and the issue in our backyard are connected, the issues in black communities and the issues in trans community are connected the environmental issues and the indigenous issues are connected. So Grace and trust in our community that when we address one the ripple effects throughout the whole ecosystem,

    KC Davis 36:22

    you Wow, wow. That's really moving. I really feel I got kind of emotional in hearing that. And it's not like it's not, you know, it shouldn't be mind blowing. And I've heard people talk about, you know that before, but the way that you stated, it was very empowering. Maybe that's it. Maybe I usually hear it in terms of, you have to care about this, because this is related to this. And you know, if you don't care about this, then you you know, you don't understand. And as opposed to this idea of, where is your you know, what is your bandwidth and what is your capacity? And sort of that belief and knowledge of you know there are several different systems, like there's one system that is broken in several parts, right?

    Nat Vikitsreth 37:10

    That's right. And pick one, pick your entry point. The best teachers for me doing this organizing work Casey, are poor, working class, disabled women, mothers, femme identified bodies who have limited capacity, because they have to survive so many systems all at once. Yet they get together, yet they mobilize, yet they do political analysis, yet they take direct action within their capacities, because that's what they can do. And for me, when I work with parents, I ask, what's your gift? What can you bring to the table? And just do that. Let's not just aim for the sexy action or a one time donation, but can we aim for the boring, mundane stuff marim Kaba talks about, you know, she does boring things with protest and organizing, where they would go early to set up the space and leave last to sweep all the trash if you can't go to the protest. Can you do that? If you can't go to the protest, can you set up a spreadsheet that organize ride shares or pick up and drop off for people who want to be on site and protest. Or can you like, Hey, bring your kids if you want to go marching, I'll do childcare. Or I'll bring cookies to the meeting. And we all have our sites of change, school board meeting, Trader Joe's grocery person at checkout, our neighbor, our relative at the bus stop. The possibilities are, I think, endless.

    KC Davis 39:14

    So when we think about these various spheres of you know, influence, it also kind of strikes me that one of the questions is, like, where, if I'm looking at my bandwidth and it's, you know, this big or this big, like, in what ways is my participation most impactful, you know, like, where are my spheres of influence? And you know, you're going back to you talking about, like, okay, there's the sexy things to do, or there's the the main cause happening that you can kind of do and, and I think, you know this idea that what's hard, I think, is going, Okay, this is an important thing. I don't have a large sphere of influence. That overlaps with this thing. I don't have a heavy sphere of influence that will affect this thing. You know, I don't, maybe have a ton of finances that could move the needle or could contribute. But what I what I do have, can I do it? So maybe it is, even if this is the largest cause on everyone's mind, okay, I have a few bucks to give to this, and I can call, I can email a representative and share a Facebook post and like, maybe that's all my sphere of influence can really afford to do with this. But if once I've done it, like, can I then allow myself to go, okay, that's what I could do. And now, you know where the are, there other areas or things that I can do that are going to be you know that I can use my more of my other capacity for or that I could you know what I mean? It's kind of like I've done what I can do. There's no point of me continuing to have anxiety about it. There's no Pass Fail. There's no pass fail. I remember I had another friend call and was talking about, you know, I almost feel guilty having fun with my family when I know that, you know, and then fill in the blank that there's a genocide in Palestine, that there's a a genocide in Congo, that there is famine, that there is, you know, people being, you know, shot in their own homes, like I almost feel guilty going on vacation, or, you know, having a party, or, you know, sitting down and reading and wanting to call a friend of like, and something that I said to her, I didn't realize I really needed to hear it and it, I said, this is going to sound kind of shocking, but like, horrible tragedies have happened since the dawn of time, and people have always baked pies while they were happening. So I'm not saying ignore it or put your head in the sand or don't, but like, it's actually very weird that at this day and age, we can be so connected to every single tragedy that's happening. It's not normal for the scope of humanity, for us to be so in tuned with tragedies that we have so little sphere of influence over like it. Usually, if something was happening, it was because it was, you know, the town next door, or it was, you know, in your country, or somebody knew about it, or, you know, but at the same time, like there's people are still having babies and baking pies and wrestling on, you know, the floor with their kids. And I think sometimes that is hard. Am I allowed to continue to have joy? You know, without it's almost like a survivor's guilt,

    Nat Vikitsreth 42:39

    yes, and what I hear from the parents in my community too is I tuck my kids in at night, knowing that some other families don't get to do that, and getting Real about our capacity and what we can do while holding next to it all the tragedies that are happening to show up in solidarity with others. We gotta be ready. Our cup cannot be dry. We know this right? And the guilt is so real Casey, it's so so real. And to put my therapist hat on is to ask the question of, so how do we mobilize that guilt into action? But the human part in me, I carry that guilt too, like I was treating myself with pizza the other day, so excited to eat the first moment I opened the box, and I have my phone, my Instagram on the other hand, and I see pictures of children starving, or rather made To be starved. And it was a choice point. Am I gonna let the skill take over? Like, I know my body needs nourishment and my bandwidth needs to be replenished, my cup needs to be refilled so that I can go back and take action tomorrow?

    KC Davis 44:18

    Yeah, that sort of filter of like, sphere of influence is, I think, a really helpful for those moments where it's like, Can this feeling, this distress, this guilt, is whatever, like, Can this inform or mobilize me into an action item? Because sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes the answer is no, no. There's not really any more action items here. You know, there's not

    Nat Vikitsreth 44:41

    That's right, that's right, that sweet spot before guilt turns into shame, we are okay. So what am I gonna do about it? Yes, my heart is breaking. What am I gonna do? Yes, I'm feeling guilty about the joy that I'm cultivating to fill my cup. What am I gonna do? And it could be, what am I gonna do tomorrow? Makeup is a little fuller, but right now, can I give myself grace and permission to cultivate joy? Right? Because, throughout history of organizing Casey, they're artists. They're poets who write as they process, who make art as they process their grief and rage and heartbreak, and who, mothers, femme, identified bodies and humans who bake pies, right? And I think we talked about that briefly, where there's always going to be oppression, people who put us in hierarchy of worthiness. But as long as there's oppression, there's always resistance, and sometimes resistance is taking place in the kitchen where I'm going to knead the pie dough together, mobilizing grief and heartbreak out of my body by moving bilaterally. At midline, there's rhythm, there's humming, there's music, there's connection with the land, with the spirits. They're swaying and rocking up the body. There are ways throughout history that people are unapologetically moving through grief and heartbreak well,

    KC Davis 46:17

    and just you saying that, you know, I think it finally hit me that it's not resistance if you're giving in to the despair, resistance is also resisting the despair, resisting the hopelessness, because those are the weapons of oppressive systems. And if you're not resisting that, it's not resistance.

    Nat Vikitsreth 46:41

    No, it's gaslighting ourselves into what the oppressors want us to do. And it's not moving the needle. It's not helping us stay in the struggle, right? If my trans community, my Asian immigrant communities, we can't afford other like more people burnt out and not take action.

    KC Davis 47:05

    Now this has been such a wonderful conversation. Can you plug yourself and your accounts and where can people find you and see more of what you do?

    Nat Vikitsreth 47:16

    Thank you for asking Casey. I can mobilize families and people to do this liberation work. But when it comes to talking about myself, I have no word. So please be patient with me. All of my information, along with my podcast, which is called come back to care. Is at comeback to care.com, and then work with parents and families, people who love and raise young children and want to heal their inner child wounds and internalized oppression wounds so they can really show up as an ally, as a parent, as a human, and do this liberation work for the long haul. Well,

    KC Davis 48:01

    I can't thank you enough, and we will put those in the show notes that people know where to go. And I hope that you have a wonderful day.

    Nat Vikitsreth 48:09

    You too, KC. Please take care. You.

    Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Christy Haussler
112: When a Loved One Won’t Seek Mental Health Treatment with Dr. Alec Pollard

What do you do when a loved one won’t seek the mental health treatment that they obviously need? We are looking at the very important topic of mental health from the perspective of your concern for a loved one who might be resistant to asking for help, and what you can do about it. I’m joined by Dr. Alec Pollard, a co-author of When A Loved One Won't Seek Mental Health Treatment: How to Promote Recovery and Reclaim Your Family’s Well-Being. With a long career as a clinical psychologist, he is the founding director of the St. Louis Behavioral Medicine Institute. Join us to learn more!

Show Highlights:

  • Dr. Pollard’s background and four decades of experience as a psychologist 

  • Turning his focus to help those who are concerned about their loved one’s mental health

  • Dr. Pollard explains The Family Well-Being Approach/Consultation

  • Two types of accommodations that loved ones make: commission and omission

  • Differentiation between appropriate and inappropriate accommodations for a loved one

  • Recovery avoidance: a pattern of behavior that is inconsistent with the process of recovery

  • Creating opportunities for a loved one to get better through support, incentives, and positive rewards

  • Dr. Pollard’s book and its approach of finding a balance between long-term planning and crisis management

  • Dr. Pollard’s takeaway about his book as his proudest achievement in his career

Resources and Links:

Connect with Dr. Alec Pollard: St. Louis Behavioral Medicine Institute and When A Loved One Won't Seek Mental Health Treatment

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:00

    Music. Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle. Care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and I have a guest with me today, Dr Alec Pollard, and we're going to talk about, what do you do when someone that you love doesn't want to seek out mental health treatment that they, in your opinion, probably very much need I talk a lot about mental health on the podcast, but I'm usually talking about mental health from the perspective of you being the person looking for help. But I know that things get really complicated when it's someone that you love that needs help that maybe feels resistant to it, and so for that reason, Alec, thank you for being here. You and some of your colleagues wrote a book, and the name of that book, let me pull it up here, when a loved one won't seek mental health treatment, correct. So tell me a little bit about yourself and how this came to fruition. Well,

    Dr. Alec Pollard 0:55

    I'm a psychologist. I've been practicing, I won't say how many years, but let's just say I was a child prodigy, certainly, of course, but okay, I'll admit it, almost 45 years, I've been practicing at this point, and I started off with my interest in specializing in OCD and anxiety disorders, and that was truly my love for many years, in terms of both research and clinical work and teaching and training, but at some point myself and my colleagues would get these calls, and we're not alone in this, and it would be somebody, it might be the husband of someone, the wife, the parent, the child, the adult child of someone with a mental illness, who would say something along the lines of, he or she has got this serious problem, it's affecting the rest of us, but they won't get help, either because they deny it's a problem, or they agree it's a problem, but they're working on it themselves. They don't need help whatever it is. And so what can you do to help us? And then we would say, well, not much have him call us when he's ready. And that's pretty much what we call in the book, Doctor typical. And we were Doctor typical, because that's what you know to do. You're not a miracle worker. Can't make somebody want to change. And so that's what we said for a number of years. And finally, we were feeling guilty about that, because we had real human beings calling us, it's suffering, and that's kind of what we're supposed to do, is to help people who are suffering, and we were just turning them down. And so we realized that, well, maybe we can help the families, if nothing else, to reduce the impact for the mental illness of their family member on their lives. And so we started sharing ideas and researching the literature. Found that there was very little directly about this topic. There were lots of things to draw upon, which is what we did, and we also learned a lot from our colleagues in the substance use area, who are very used to people not wanting help and denying that they have a problem. So we took some things from them. I'm happy to say that I've never had the original idea in my life. I I just steal from everybody else, and the only original contribution, perhaps, is how we package it, put it together into a comprehensive, holistic approach. And that's nice, but, but really, we were fortunate that there were theories and interventions that we could draw upon to put together this, what we call the Family Well Being approach, or Family Well Being consultation, if it's provided by a therapist. But the book really was designed for some families, at least, to be able to do this on their own and to learn how to deal with a loved one who will not seek treatment, something we call recovery avoidance, and we can talk more about that, if that would be of interest. Well, I,

    KC Davis 4:09

    my own background is in addiction. I was a therapist in various addiction centers, and then ended up at the end of my code of addiction career working with families, and so I'm a little bit familiar with, at least the conundrum of, you know, when families are so desperate for help. And the way this book is laid out, it's, it very much is laid out. In my mind, being a practitioner, it looks like, Oh, this is someone who has had the same conversation with person after person after person after person, and after person, and then finally, kind of realized, wait a second, there's kind of a pattern here. This could kind of be systematized and given out, you know, at mass to people, because I'm really kind of saying the same things. There's kind of the same principles that I'm repeating, yes, and I find that when I used to work with people that wanted to get their person. Into, like, a drug rehab. There was kind of, like two polar opposites. You kind of had the people that were like, I think the word we would use was, like, enabling. Like, there's this idea that, well, if I just make sure that this person doesn't experience any distress, then you know, I'll get them to stop using drugs. And then on the other side of that, we had the families that were like, you know, if I make their life hard enough, if I punish them enough, if I control them enough, you know, if I if I bring enough consequences, and if I make them hit rock bottom. And I'm curious if that's been your experience, sort of generalized out to other mental health issues, because it seems like you address both of those things in the book

    Dr. Alec Pollard 5:42

    we do that's very, very good observation on your part. And so we came from the field. When we first started doing this work, it was largely with families of people suffering from OCD. And then we started to realize, well, in fact, when we first started the book, it was going to be about OCD families, and then we realized, Now, wait a minute, we've been doing this with the families of socially anxious folks, agophobics, depressed. Why are we just focusing on that so? But the reason I mentioned the OCD focus early on was in the OCD literature, there's something called accommodating, and it's very similar to enabling, and it's the concept gets has the ability to sort of be fine tuned and nuanced in our book, so that we have different types of accommodating and things like that, which are not as critical for our conversation, but it basically is the concept of enabling, and which we call accommodating. And then there's two kinds of accommodations that we're concerned about for family members. One is accommodations of commission. Those are the things people usually think about with enabling or the term accommodating, the things we do for someone that we wouldn't normally do for anyone else if they didn't have who was not disabled in some way, and those are accommodations of commission. But we also learned that something that doesn't get talked about as much as accommodations of omission, those are the things we give up in life for those people because we're accommodating, we're committing those accommodations and the social life the you know, sometimes even more extreme, you have to quit your job and realize we didn't address that early on, when we were Developing this approach, and we started to realize this is something that we're omitting that should be in there, and because we really emphasize a lot with the families the importance of cutting back on those accommodations of omission to start to bring back into their life the things that bring them, that they value the bring them meaning joy, pleasure, because, and this is, again, not a unique idea to us, is that if you, if we go, think about the flight attendant who always tells you when the oxygen mask comes down, put it on yourself first before you Try to help your children or others that you're with, and that's such a great metaphor for our whole approach, which is we're not going to even talk about how to get that family member in treatment until you've taken care of yourself, both because you need to be a model for that person, instead of telling them what to do, why don't you do it and take care of your life, your own well being. And secondly, very pragmatically, when you are stressed, when your well being is not taken care of, you are not very good at dealing with the challenge of what we call recovery avoidance and and that's the pattern. It might be helpful at some point for me to kind of define that term a little bit, but,

    KC Davis 9:12

    yeah, I want to get into what recovery avoidance is, but I only want to ask a little more follow up question about this term accommodating, because I'm interested in that term, as opposed to enabling. And I think I like it, but accommodating is also the term that we use when we're talking about, you know, okay, somebody who needs accommodations at school, someone so I'm interested in that being the word. How do you help families understand maybe the difference between, like, an appropriate accommodation for someone's disability or their mental health versus an inappropriate or a kind of accommodation that's not helpful or maybe is sort of like an over functioning on the family's part? Yeah,

    Dr. Alec Pollard 9:55

    that's a great question, and you're right, and we go into some length about. Talking about accommodating as a general term, is a good thing. You know, it's good service at a restaurant. It's, you know, when you accommodate people. And not only do we talk about it in that way, we also use that point to try to destigmatize or unshame people from thinking that somehow there they goofed up because they wanted to accommodate somebody. Their intentions were absolutely positive and good, and in most cases, accommodating is a good thing. The problem is that they don't, and they can't possibly realize this at the time is when you start accommodating a recovery avoider. That's when it's bad. So there is no general strategy that's good or bad in life. Generally, usually okay. I think shooting is bad thing. Don't shoot people, but. But even then, if somebody's attacking your family, you might have to so it's understanding the nuance of when to do something and when not to do it. I use the example of a loaning money to a friend. So it really depends on who that friend is, whether that's a good idea or a really dumb idea. And sometimes you don't know your friend well enough until it's half it's too late, but you that friend who needs that extra money to get through the last last year of college, and they get they graduate, they get a job, they put themselves on a payment plan, they pay you back every month. That ended up being a really good thing. You feel better about yourself. They get through college, it's a win, win. But that friend who maybe isn't so responsible or doesn't have the right attitude about it maybe doesn't pay you back, and then you start calling them, going, Hey, where's the money? And then tension builds, and this is just what happens in families, and then it starts to deteriorate into that conflictual

    KC Davis 12:04

    Well, it's an interesting distinction, you know, accommodating the mental illness versus accommodating the recovery avoidant behavior, yes, which I think is interesting and important, right? Because we're not just talking about, in general, a loved one with mental health. We're specifically talking about a loved one with mental health issues that is not taking the steps towards seeking any treatment, or not taking the opportunities, or not accepting the help, or not really where, where we find ourselves working harder than they are, on a consistent basis on their mental health, right? Exactly. So that's a that's an interesting distinction.

    Dr. Alec Pollard 12:45

    Yeah, no, that's exactly it. And also, you know, it's just in life in general, even without any concepts of accommodating and all the things we all know about, just as you approach life, it's a human challenge to learn and know when to change what you're doing. And you know, well, we all know that. Suppose a quote from Einstein about the definition of insanity is keep doing the same thing, but expecting a different outcome. I'm not sure he said that, but, but he gets credit all the time, but for that. So it's knowing, okay, I don't know anything about accommodating or whatever, but something's not working here. And human beings, God, love us, we sometimes get stuck in things, because, unlike computers, it's not input in analyzed and input, I mean an output. It's we filter things through what we hope and wish for, and so when we get information, we don't always use that information to change our expectations and our tactics. We just keep doing the same thing over and over again we get that's

    KC Davis 13:58

    what we always used to say in in rehab was we would tell families, you know, they'd say, Well, you know, is it right to give them money? Is it wrong to sign them up for therapy without their and we'd always say, it's not about right and wrong or good and bad. It's about what works and what doesn't work. Because if we find ourselves kind of doing these same things, these same accommodations, over and over, and that person is not helping it's not helping them. They're not getting better. They're not, you know, wanting to seek out treatment. So tell me, let's go to that point about what does it mean to be recovery avoidant, and what does that kind of cycle look like?

    Dr. Alec Pollard 14:32

    Well, we think we felt that we needed a term for this to study it, we needed to label it, to give it a term that we could begin to talk about it with, and recovery avoidance was the term that we picked. There's a and recovery avoidance we define as a pattern. First of all, it has to be a pattern. It can't be once or twice something happens, but a real pattern of behavior that is inconsistent with the process. US of recovery from whatever the problem is. And we're very adamant about emphasizing that this does not describe intentionality. No person wants to not recover to wants to be impaired. It is not no decision is made consciously. I'm going to be an impaired individual, and that is part of why the thing you were talking about the people who are maybe more conflictual in their dealings with a person with a mental illness, we call that minimizing. And again, I'll say why we did which is that it trivializes the forces that drive recovery avoidance, that make people act in ways that are inconsistent with their own welfare, and by sort of suggesting that if I lecture you one more time, you'll snap out of this, and in fact, they're not capable of snapping out of it, and certainly not on command. So So So what happens is that that the minimum we talk about two ways that families interact with recovery avoidance. One is the accommodating, and then the other one is the lectures, the nagging, the prodding, the shaming, the shaming, the guilting, the on and on and on, all the uglier sides of being human and and we try to help people not feel so ashamed of that when they look at themselves. We try as much as we can to help people feel that this is all just natural ways of reacting to very challenging situations for which none of us is prepared. Well,

    KC Davis 16:44

    a lot of people I know, at least me, I mean, most of us, I think, vacillate right. We maybe are trying the accommodating, and then it, you know, we kind of blow up and get frustrated and swing to this other side, and then we feel guilty about being so harsh, and then we come back over here, and we just kind of swing back and forth, and neither side is really working, and we're we're not really even reacting to the person we're trying to help. We're just reacting to our own internal frustrations and fears.

    Dr. Alec Pollard 17:13

    Yes, absolutely, and we would not say that you're either Accommodator or a minimizer. Everybody is both. Now some people might do more of one than the other and and that's certainly true, because we see that. But to really understand what we call the family trap, you have to understand both dynamics, the because both minimizing and accommodating. Not only do they not when we say not work, we're talking about more than not working. We're talking about actually making things worse. So we have to understand that these both accommodating and minimizing, are toxic in that they it's not just that they're ineffective. We would say at best, they're ineffective, but most of the time, they actually contribute to this trap that the whole family is in. So the more that the individual avoids recovery, the more the family accommodates, the fewer opportunities the individual has to engage in recovery behavior, and their motivation to do so goes down because they're protected from the consequences of their own disorder, which is what drives us to go to go see the doctor. For the most part, people don't go to a doctor to be a better person. Okay, maybe in some parts of California. But other than that, don't do that. And I can say that because I lived in California for four years at least. So, any rate so, and then the other part of this, and I don't have, you know, we don't have visuals here, my diagram, that's in the book. But so you have that circle of interaction, more recovery avoidance, more accommodating, fewer opportunities and and incentives to actually work on recovery. And that cycle, then you have this other loop where, because you're accommodating, you are burdened by the extra responsibilities that jeopardizes your well being, which means you're going to be cranky, irritable or anxious and afraid. None of those things help you deal effectively with recovery avoidance. So when you start the lecturing and whatever, the recovery avoider now feels number one, more afraid because you don't get it. You don't understand how hard this is. So they're distrustful of the family because they don't feel that they get it. They're more anxious, more defensive, dig their heels in, which reinforces recovery avoidance. So that's the whole thing we call the family trap. And everybody's stuck in it. They don't know how to get out. And so all right, of course, I'm going to say that our book is the way out. I'd like to think at least for some it will be you. But it's easy to see how just normal human beings can get stuck in that cycle.

    KC Davis 20:11

    I like the term opportunity. It's funny, you know, I actually just turned in the final manuscript for my book. It's about relationships and how to make decisions in relationships, and it actually pairs nicely with a lot of things that you're talking about, because it deals with, you know, what do you do when you're in a relationship with someone that maybe has some mental health difficulties, and you feel stuck between the compassion of, well, I understand where they're coming from and the reality of, okay, but this is really hurtful. And you know, what do I do and what are my obligations? And one of the things that I that I talked about is this idea of opportunities where you can't control whether someone gets better or not, whether they're willing to, or whether they're able to, or some mix of it, but we, we can look at whether or not our behavior is robbing that person of the opportunities to get better. Yes, and you know, we, all we can do is create those opportunities, not get in the way of the opportunities that would be there and be healthy enough to be the kind of support system that a person would need when they are able and willing to take those opportunities. Yes,

    Dr. Alec Pollard 21:17

    absolutely. And we would say, probably there is one more thing you can do besides creating the opportunities. You can create incentives for it. You can actually incentivize people to take advantage of those opportunities, but, and big but, well, that didn't sound right, you know what I meant? So you we don't even talk about that, that's the last step in our five step approach, because we you won't do it well if you haven't taken care of yourself first and reduced the conflict in the family. Yeah,

    KC Davis 21:55

    I was going to ask, how do you help somebody distinguish between creating incentive in a healthy, appropriate way, versus the kind of controlling, you know, oh, I'll just bribe them, right? I'll bribe them, or I'll threaten them, or I'll make these ultimatums, you know, because I can see someone engaging in those behaviors thinking, Oh, I'm creating incentive. I'm telling them I won't pay for college if they don't go to therapy. Or I'm telling them I'm going to get a divorce, if they won't, you know, take the medication?

    Dr. Alec Pollard 22:24

    Yes? Well, that the answer to that could take up the rest of our talk so, but I'm going to try to bullet point it here a little bit. Alright, so you won't be upset with me, Casey. So there's a couple of things that that distinguish sort of what we would call productive use of incentives and incentivizing versus what families often tend to do people violate. So in step five, by the way we talk about that very issue, like, well, what's the difference now you're you told us for the first four steps, we should take care of ourselves, and now you're turning us back to trying to influence the recovery avoider. And the answer is, yes, we are, but it's some fundamental differences. First of all, if you've done it right, your household is no longer filled with conflict. Not saying that the recovery avoider is cured or better, even just saying there's less conflict. So for a while you're gonna All right, so he sleeps till noon. So what? Leave him alone. You go play golf, whatever. I know I'm oversimplifying it, but it's basically stop creating unnecessary conflicts. Save your battles for if they're standing in front if they're in their room doing rituals and it bothers you. Well, you got to learn to let go of that. If they're standing in front of the television doing the rituals and you can't see it, that's different. That's what you have to focus on the things that directly interfere with your life, and then you try to let go of the other stuff. And so the whole goal of Step four is to dismantle those arguments, those contentious things, and focus on yourself more and treating both you and the recovery avoider better. So before you even get to trying to influence them directly. You are trying to get rid and you know, we have a quote before each step, you know, like some kind of defining quote. And the defining quote of step four is, if you can't do anything good, first, do no harm. That was Kurt Vonnegut quote. And so we're saying, let's stop doing harm, which means let's stop the arguments and the conflicts that are unnecessary right now and get the environment better between you and the recovery voider. That is a huge difference, because when you're mad at each other, you can't do any healthy and. Incentivizing. It's, you know, and so, so that's one big difference. The other big difference is that we focus on incentives that are immediate. So when people say, Oh, I'll pay for college if you do this, well, that's too far off, because you have to understand that the reason that people behave in ways that are sort of self defeating are not because of long term things. It's because of the immediate influences on their behavior, mostly the avoidance of something bad or the pursuit of something good. We really are not that complicated at that level, right? So I'm either going to get a high if I smoke this and or if I do this compulsion, I won't feel so bad. And so the incentives have to be more up closer in time to really be so if we just use the example of homework, that's not the big issue for everybody, but let's just pretend, instead of saying, Johnny, I'll get you a new car. Like, take the huge incentive, like, I'll get you a Mercedes Benz. Now, most of us couldn't even think about using that as an incentive, but if at the end of the semester you have straight A's, okay, well, first of all, that's pretty high straight A's. It's all or nothing. So that's a bad incentive, and it's way off better to say when you've done your homework tonight, you will earn screen time tonight based on that you got your homework done on whatever contingency, however you set it up. But that's going to be much more powerful than delayed, and because you're battling against immediate incentives that are keeping people impaired. So any rate, there are nuances to it. We go through the definition of good incentives and bad ones and healthy and most importantly, we focus almost exclusively, with some exceptions, on positive rewards, rather than because often what families have gotten themselves into is threats and negative trying to influence things through negative consequences, whether it's just yelling, arguing, threatening to kick them out, which that's an in a lot of times, the concept of tough love. One version of it is, you know, the idea that you're kicking them out of the house and tell you get treatment, you can't live here, and all that kind of stuff. And that all sounds good, and sometimes people can do that successfully. But the problem is most families can't follow through with that, and so what they've done when they kick them out of the house and then they let them back in after the first call from a homeless shelter, they've now done more harm because they've lost their credibility. So we emphasize for families do lesser things, but make sure you're ready to do them and don't do them out of impulse. Plan them all that's in the book talking about how to plan your interventions, do things that you'll follow through with, because it's about building credibility in part over time, so that when that family member hears you say, starting in June, I will no longer, or I will start blah, blah, blah, whatever it is, and they believe it. And so you reduce testing you, yeah, and that you start to get credibility, right? So that's another thing that we emphasize a lot, is don't be so ambitious. Start easy and make sure you can follow through with it, because that's going to build on your ability to be effective with that person down the road.

    KC Davis 28:55

    Well, we're running up out of time here, but I just wanted to say that the book is chocked full of really, really practical things. And I like the balance between long term planning and like crisis management. Like, what do I do right now when this thing's in front of me, speaking of in front of me, I think I have a child about to run in here. That's life. It's okay. And I do, I do, honestly, really like the book. It does seem to mirror a lot of the lessons that I learned, you know, just in working with people in addiction, which I, you know, is my stamp of approval there. And so again, for everybody, it's when a loved one won't seek mental health treatment, how to promote recovery and reclaim your family's well being. And so I really encourage everyone to check that out. Do you have any last kind of things that you want to say about the book? What is the thing you're most proud of in

    Dr. Alec Pollard 29:48

    the book? Well, I will say, I think this is the thing in my career, which is, I've already admitted has been rather long. I think it's the thing I've done a lot of things, and I. I won't go on about it, but just I've done a lot of things I think I'm proud of in my career, but I think this is the one that I'm the most proud and mostly because I think we've started to create thinking about and again, other people have, you know, set the tone for us, and we used their information to go a step further, but I hope that we've opened up the door for a whole group of people that otherwise were ignored and neglected, and not the recovery avoiders, although them too, they will benefit, but these family members that so many of us have been ignoring for years, They're suffering, and I'm hoping that we can do some good there.

    KC Davis 30:43

    Well, it's a great book, and I'm going to be recommending it to people, for sure. I'm actually going to send it to some of my therapist friends that still run rehabs, because I think you're right. It's not that, it's, you know, you know, I know. You're very you're humble and saying, oh, you know, we're really building upon, you know, work that's been out there, but this is such an excellent synthesis of all of that wisdom, and I appreciate the way that you laid it out. I mean, my whole thing is kind of talking about moral neutrality, where, you know, we don't want to shame you for what you've been struggling with, and not put these moral labels on it. And I think that's something that the book does well. It's not good bad, right or wrong, it just is. It's just human, understandable, human reactions, and some of them work, and some of them don't. And let's get you on the right path. And so Alec, I want to thank you again for your time and for the all the effort that you guys put into this book.

    Dr. Alec Pollard 31:34

    Thanks so much. It's been my pleasure. You

    Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Christy Haussler
111: How to be a Content Creator without Wrecking Your Mental Health with Franchesca Ramsey

If you joined us for last week’s episode, you know that we promised Part 2 of my conversation with Franchesca Ramsey. She brings an expert perspective on the various aspects of content creation, like authenticity, compassion, handling negative comments, the value of listening, and more. Franchesca Ramsey is an actor, writer, public speaker, and longtime content creator. She wrote and performed in the web series MTV Decoded, where she tackled race, pop culture, and other uncomfortable topics. Other notable accomplishments include writing for The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore and a nomination for an NAACP award for one of the best books of 2018: Well, That Escalated Quickly: Memoirs and Mistakes of an Accidental Activist. Franchesca shares her expertise and insights about guarding your mental health as a content creator. Join us to learn more!

Show Highlights:

  • The skills we lack in being human, trusting each other, and genuinely calling someone IN

  • The public vs. private sphere of an online presence

  • Listening, forgiving, and doing the right thing

  • Hard-earned perspectives on hot takes and being silent

  • What’s your WHY for content creation?

  • Handling critical and negative comments on social media

  • Being authentic in content creation means sometimes logging off.

  • KC’s thoughts on her WHY as a content creator

Resources and Links:

Connect with Franchesca Ramsey: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and book

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:05

    Hello, you Sentient balls of . Welcome back to struggle. Care. I'm your host. KC Davis, we're going to jump right back in to part two of my amazing conversation with Francesca Ramsey about mental health and being an online content creator out in these public platform streets. If you didn't hear last week's conversation, go listen to that. And if you are just joining us this week, you're going to want to hear that first just as a reminder, Francesca Ramsey is an actor, writer, sought after, public speaker, and the creator, star of the award winning web series MTV decoded. She has been a former writer and correspondent for The Comedy Central show, The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore, and she wrote an amazing book called well that escalated quickly. So without further ado, here is the rest of that conversation. Well, and I think in general, like as a society, as people, like one of the things that we don't we're not taught well as kids, it is how to manage emotional reactivity and that feeling of being in fight or flight, and so, like we, I think, lack those skills in general, but then you push somebody into the place of a content creator, and like all of that is amplified online. And I actually had that same situation last week. I had a mutual mega video, and it was friends only, and she tagged me in it, and she was like, Hey, I just saw this video that you made, and I almost didn't say anything, but like, I think like or form, I think poor form, it kind of hurt my feelings, right? And like, what was so it was genuinely, maybe one of the most touching things that has ever happened to me on Tiktok, because, like, this person and I have followed each other for probably three or four years, and like, they absolutely they could have just scrolled on because, hey, you don't agree all the time, or they could have unfollowed. Literally, it was like this very human moment where I was, like, this person cared enough to tell me, like they actually valued this. You know, it's parasocial, but it was like a mutual parasocial relationship, and they felt comfortable

    Franchesca Ramsey 2:06

    and they trust you. And I remind people I saw that happen, and I remind people all the time that it's really scary to share that you've been hurt or that you're disappointed or that somebody fucked up. I think people assume like, Oh, you're getting off on this. You're gonna, especially if you respect somebody, it's really scary, because you're like, this could potentially, this could potentially hurt our relationship. Like, is this going to be the end whatever? So if someone does that, it's because they believe that you can handle it. They believe you can do better. They believe that you are worthy of their time and energy. How many times that people piss you off and you just go, Fuck it. I'm never gonna talk to them again. I'm just gonna write them off. Versus you say, like, Hey, can we make time to talk? I'd love to go out to lunch or get on the phone or FaceTime, or can I send you an email? Whatever? I'm setting aside time for this relationship, because I value it, and I want us, my best friend's sister, as a therapist, and she says, rupture and repair. We've had a rupture, and now I want us to repair it, and it's because you believe it's worth it. And, yeah, I've made a few of those friends only videos and commented on a few of them, which I think is how we got to this podcast episode. Yeah, I again, it doesn't always work. Don't get me wrong. It does not always work, but I believe it's worth it. And I just think more people could stand to benefit from calling folks in. And just like sometimes you got to call people out, brands, celebrities, stuff like that that I don't have personal connection to. But I think if you really want to move the needle, you got to call people in sometimes.

    KC Davis 3:48

    And I do think like when it comes to calling someone in, like when it's someone who has, like, an established relationship with me, there's so much more there than someone ran. Because I do think sometimes someone will make a video, and it'll be a very passionate, quote, unquote call in, and they'll say, like, Well, I'm not calling them out, I'm calling them in. And it's like, I mean, okay, I guess technically, but like, and at the same time, I think there's a difference between, you know, if you've been directly hurt by someone or something, like not saying that everyone needs to, like, tone police themselves. But at the same time, I do think that if we are the person doing the calling in, we have to ask ourselves, like, What is my purpose? Do I want this person to hear me? And am I thinking about the way that I'm talking and the way that I'm addressing them in the hopes that they can hear me, or am I using language or tone that I know is going to make it more difficult for that person to hear me, but I'm gonna enjoy how it feels like I'm the one that's right.

    Franchesca Ramsey 4:54

    Yeah. I mean, I think assuming that your audience has heard these terms before, but just for. Reference, you know, calling out is when we do something in a public scale, and we're taking a celebrity or a brand to task or person you know in our personal lives, because we've been harmed, versus a call in requires a lot more care. Even though you have been harmed, you are not making this public, you are making it a private or a more delicate conversation, because your hope is to repair the situation so the person can learn from it. And so I think you bring up a really good point about asking yourself, what is the intended goal? Because I do think there's a way to call people in that happens to be public, but I think it's very tricky. And I think a lot of people to your point, use the words I'm calling you in, but they're not really and for me, I think calling in requires like offering a little bit more grace. It doesn't mean that you're saying what you did is okay, and I'm excusing it. You're just allowing a little breathing room to say maybe you didn't mean to do it like and intentions are those things that, like we often try to stay away from when we're trying to take real accountability, but when we're calling someone in, I think you give that little breathing room so that the person hopefully can meet you in the middle, and then you can move forward together.

    KC Davis 6:28

    And I think the less of a relationship you have with them, the more you need to have some of that graciousness, because I don't know you, and you don't know me, and so like, if I do, it's like, if I do know you, you can actually be a little more pointed and direct with me, because I know you're not here to harm me. I know that the it's like the grace is unstated, and if I don't know someone or have a relationship with them, I actually have to put a little more of that graciousness in there. The best call out I ever yeah, there's more to calling in than being right and being on the same side. I think people think that as long as I align politically with you and I'm right, then anything I say to you being wrong is a call in, and that's more than that. But the best call in I ever got from someone that did not know me was a follower that made a video, and they said, Hey, I see that you feel a little spun out. And I want to tell you, like, with all the respect and the care in the world, just stop. Stop. You feel like you're being attacked. I know that it feels that way. Oh my god. I know it feels that way, but you're just digging yourself deeper. I implore you to just take a beat and step back and remove yourself in this conversation. But it was that like, I mean, it genuinely, like, auto regulated my nervous system. And they were like, you know, you've really kind of stepped in it, but I see you in this space of feeling frantic, and I one time went viral, and I know what that feels like. And it was like, there was this compassion for that without saying that. Like, yeah, yeah, you stepped in. It still, but like, I care you enough. Yes, yeah.

    Franchesca Ramsey 8:05

    They centered your humanity. They were like, and again, it's that thing that I keep saying is, like, two things can be true, you fucked up, but you're also a human. And my good friend Dylan Marin said this. He has a fantastic podcast called conversations with people who hate me, and he wrote a book about and did TED talk, and one of the things he said is that empathy is not an endorsement, and I think about that all of the time, but we can empathize with someone and not say that what they did was okay. Still hurt people, you still need to face consequences, you still need to repair the harm, and also you are a person and hurt people, hurt people, and people make mistakes, and I've made mistakes too, and I needed to learn from that mistake, and I've gone viral, and I've been called out. I've done those things, and I can see the humanity in you, and that's why I'm taking the step to call you in. And I think most people aren't prepared for how much work calling someone in is. It's like emotionally draining, and you don't get the public cookies for it, and that's where I think people default to doing things publicly. And they say it's a call in, but it's like, No, you. I mean, you just want people to hear it, which is fine, that's okay. But if it was done offline, it would be a lot more work, and you really don't get anything out of it. You get nothing out of it.

    KC Davis 9:36

    Yeah, this whole like private versus public fear is interesting to me online, because I feel like a lot of the conversations that we have, a lot of the discourse around community, does not take into account the very unique dynamics of online platforms. So like, when we talk about, let's just take like, the very comment, you know, like, listen to, and then fill in the blank, right, listen to. Black women listen to people with disabilities. And it's this idea that you know you don't necessarily get to be like the arbiter of whether you caused harm, like the people who you know. You need to listen to people that say, Hey, that harmed me, and it's intent versus impact. And all the stuff, like all of that stuff, is really, really true, and there aren't a lot of people there to help you walk through what that actually means in the context of 1.6 million people watching your videos, right? And like, because, okay, like, you know, you've said something or you've done something, and like, no one is a monolith. And so there's a portion of people that are like, hey, that's fine, and a portion of people that are really angry about it, and maybe you need to address this. And how do you address it online? Do you address it offline? If someone came to you offline and you address it, you know, not every mistake needs a big public apology video. So you have to make these decisions about, you know, what does need me to address publicly, and what you know, I addressed privately, and I kind of did my thing, but now there's still people publicly that are upset because they didn't see whatever that work was. And you start to, you know, when you when we hear this, sort of like, you need to listen to people, and it's like, well, is that the same thing as every single person that has an opinion in your comment section, sort of like being owed or needing to get an explanation or you're wrong, as long as anyone can say you're wrong, and that there's like, a tricky way to translate some of those lessons on how do you listen to people while recognizing that you know not everything kind of going back to our First point, not everything has to be performed publicly and but maybe some things do,

    Franchesca Ramsey 11:46

    yeah, I mean, I think, unfortunately, there's not really an easy answer for that. I think it's something that I struggle with myself, and we kind of touched on this before, is being okay with the fact that you're not always going to get it right. Everyone's not going to like you that even when you really make your best effort to do it right, it's not going to be enough for some people. And the same way that when you have conflict with someone and they say, I'm really sorry, and you decide you're not going to forgive them, sometimes you're on the other end, and you say you're really sorry and the harm was just too big, and the person says, like, I can't forgive you, and you just have to be okay with it. You have to say, like, my actions will hopefully show you that I've made the changes and I'm bettering myself, and I'm trying to do what's right. And if it's not enough for you. It's okay. It's not gonna you see this a lot of times where someone says, like, oh, I said, I'm sorry. Like, what more do you want? Like, it's like, oh, so then you weren't really sorry. What you wanted was to be forgiven. You didn't actually want to repair the harm. You didn't want to change your behavior and do better. You wanted a clean stamp, and then to move on, if you're really trying to move forward and be better and learn, you have to accept, oh, it's not going to work for some people, but I'm still going to do what's right. I'm going to do what's right not because it's profitable, not because I'm going to get rewarded for it, not because my name is going to be in lights, because it's the right thing to do, because most of the time the right thing to do. Don't get you anything, nothing. You know, we're not all getting a Nobel Prize. Sometimes you lose you lose jobs, you lose friends, you lose opportunities, because you're trying to stick to your morals, but you stick to your morals because that's the right thing to do. And it's I get messages from people about this all the time, and I'm like, I wish I had an easier answer for you.

    KC Davis 13:48

    One of the boundaries that also has really helped me, particularly when I make like white woman mistakes, is, do I want to do the right thing or like? Is my goal to do the right thing, or is my goal to be seen as doing the right thing?

    Franchesca Ramsey 14:06

    If no one was around, would you do the right thing?

    KC Davis 14:09

    And sometimes like, I will take steps to like be accountable and rectify situation, and for whatever reason that is not somebody doesn't like that, either it was a publicly and it wasn't good enough, or sometimes it was just something that actually went private, and that work went on privately, and I didn't make a video about, Oh, and here's all the things I learned. And so early on, what would happen is someone would say, like, you're not doing this, and I would want to respond with, actually, I am doing this. Here are all the things that I'm doing. And then really quickly it was like, Oh, so you get in this place where, okay, if I don't publicize all of this thing that I did, that I thought all these ways. I thought that I was meeting my integrity. There's this group of people that will think that I. Didn't. But if I do make that move to publicize it, to make these people think this, then it will do something that tastes bad. It will be this. Here's this self aggrandizing. Let me give you I've now centered myself, to give you a long list of how I'm really okay, and you're not allowed to think that about me. And I've learned that like, truly, most of the time, the more appropriate response is, like, just to allow people to misunderstand, or I can let someone know you know something, but like, if it ever comes down to the only way this person is going to think that I have not done the wrong thing is to make a big, long video about how I've done all the right things. It will not feel good. It will not taste good in anyone's mouth. It will not center the right things, it will it will blow up. It will not feel good, and it will not have, it will have just been about me, really caring that user number 904455, is wrong about me, and they see that they're wrong about me, and that's when I kind of go back to that, like, Okay, did I pursue the right thing? Yes, I did. So that's what I developed,

    Franchesca Ramsey 16:10

    like, a number of just like responses that I share all the time, that I go back to when I feel myself wanting to defend myself and go back and forth. I often tell people it's okay for us to see this differently. It's just okay, like, I again, especially on the internet where it's like, I don't know you, I don't know you, you don't know me. You have a life. I have a life, and I realize I'm in a privileged position in that like this don't pay my bills. So like, if this was fucking on my check, it would be very different, but it's not, and it's okay if you have to unfollow me, it's okay if you have to block me, it's okay if you report this video, it's okay if my Tiktok gets taken down. I mean, I'm gonna be disappointed, but I'll be fine. I'll move on. And I also often say I'm not gonna repeat myself. I was clear the first time. At this point, you were just asking me to give you more of my time when I said it very clearly, and that's it. And I like doing that because it is a trick that makes me go. Now I really can't respond, because I'm gonna look fucking stupid. Yeah, if I just said I'm not gonna repeat myself, and then I repeat myself. Yeah,

    KC Davis 17:16

    I sometimes will say, like, if someone's really pushing and pushing and pushing, I'll say, I understand that you don't agree with my choices,

    Franchesca Ramsey 17:23

    and I'm okay with it. Like, yes.

    KC Davis 17:26

    Like, just to put it back, like, put it back into this perspective of, like, number one, this is just a disagreement on opinion. This isn't a lot of people like to turn it of like, hey, because I've, you know, I'm trying to hold you accountable, and if you don't do what I think you should do, you're a bad person who doesn't want to be accountable who did it? And it's like, actually, this is just two people having a differing opinion on what we and like, I've done what I think, you know, meets my standards of integrity the best I can. You don't think that I did. That's okay. Neither one of us is bad or wrong. I understand, and then I'm also, like, making them realize, like you're just repeating yourself, like your goal now is to get me to do something to control my behavior, and I'm letting you know, like I'm not going like, I understand you disagree with my decision, clear, nothing to argue about.

    Franchesca Ramsey 18:16

    Yeah? Well, yeah, I do something really similar. And I think what's really smart about that is, at the crux of it, people just want to be heard a lot of times, and I've learned through my time on the internet, dealing with my audience and people that I actually know and people that don't like me and people that have you know, dedicated hours of their content to talking about how they dislike me is that a lot of people don't feel heard in their real life, and so the Internet is a place where they feel like they could be heard. And so sometimes, when I'm going back and forth with someone, sometimes I just say, I hear you. It doesn't mean that I agree with you. It doesn't mean that you're right. I just I hear you, I hear where you're coming from. And I've again doesn't always work, but I've oftentimes found people that are just like, you know, thank you so much for hearing me. I really respect that we had this conversation, even though I still think you're wrong about blah, blah, blah, it's like, wow, how unfortunate that you've been in too many situations where people just didn't listen to you. And I know how frustrating that is when you're being misrepresented, and it's just like, but this is what I feel, this is what's important to me, or like, this is what I believe is right, or, and the person's just got their fingers in their ears, and you're just saying, I just, I just want to know that this is penetrated, and then I can move on. And so sometimes you just have to give that to people. I understand is a great one. I use. I've heard you, and sometimes I've said to people, especially when I can really see that they're upset and it's not going anywhere, is I say, like, how would you like this to be resolved? Like, what do you want? Because if you. What you want is for me to say I'm wrong. You're right. That's not gonna happen. But if you want, because I don't think I'm wrong, but if there's something that you want me to do, and it's within reason, I might be able to do it. Sometimes I had somebody say, you know, I'm getting dog piled because of your comments and blah, blah, blah, I said, What would you like me to do? Can you delete the comment? Okay, I'll delete it. Hey, I remember one time I was, I had gone through a bad breakup, for Jessica was not being smart. She was sub tweeting. And I was sub tweeting about this girl and all this drama and whatever, she showed up in the comments, and she was like, You blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and and she said, You're you're posting this for validation, and you need to take this down. And I said, You know what you are, right? I was posting this for validation. I didn't name you, but obviously you're upset, because you know what's about you, so I'll delete this. And then, sure enough, we exchanged some very friendly emails, and we're not friends, but like, we decided to squash it, and it was a great example of, like, I fucked up. Somebody was unhappy, and so I said, and again, what I said, No, sub tweets was not wrong. That's probably why she was upset, but how I went about it was not right, and she was upset, and I could acknowledge that I had done the wrong thing. And so if deleting this, because it was one of those things where, like, I fired off a subtweet and then it went viral, and because people were agreeing with it, or they had been the same situation, and it must have come across her feed, and she was not happy about it, even though she wasn't named. And so I said, No problem. I can just delete it. It's over. And I think more people would be served to just say, what is going to help us move forward? It doesn't mean that anyone's the winner or the loser. We're just agreeing to disagree and move on.

    KC Davis 21:48

    Yeah. So the last thing I wanted to ask you about is, what are some lessons that you've learned, or advice that you maybe have to give, or maybe just experience, some perspectives on how to engage with like, bigger issues as they come, as they're happening, whether they're political issues or social issues or things like that. Because I feel like there's kind of like two sides to the polarity. Of like, there's that frustration of like, I need to have a hot take on everything. But then there's also this, like, I feel like it would be weird for me to not say anything. Then sometimes there's a lot of pressure from an audience for you to address something, and then you know, so what are some like, kind of maybe hard earned perspectives you have on that?

    Franchesca Ramsey 22:31

    Yeah, something that my therapist says to me a lot that has been really helpful for me is like knowing what your WHY IS, and when I know what my why is, it helps me make decisions about what I speak on, what I share, what I create. And for me, my Why is telling untold stories and making people feel seen. And sometimes that means, like, posting a silly video, sometimes that means sharing content from someone else. And I think my why also kind of like what we're talking about, the calling in versus calling out. Like, am I sharing this because I want to look knowledgeable and informed and I want to be a good look like a good person? Or am I sharing this because something is really important that needs to be amplified and I'm the best person to speak on it, or I have a perspective that people haven't heard. I use that a lot when I decide if I'm making content. And I think that's one of the things I really don't like about Tiktok, is that it rewards everybody speaking on something. And a lot of people there the videos are like, I don't really have anything, I don't really know anything about this, or I don't you know. People are asking me to talk about no one is asking you to talk about this, but okay, but everyone's talking about it, so they need to. And for me, I'm of the mind of, like, am I adding anything to this conversation? And if not, I'm just not going to participate. Doesn't mean the conversation is not important. Just means that, like, I Francesca, don't have anything to share, so I'll just share what somebody else has said. You know, someone who's more informed, a journalist, you know, and you know, an economic specialist, somebody who has some letters at the end of their name. And I can say, You know what? That makes some sense. Now, why am I going to just try to, like, regurgitate what I hate, those videos that are like, I saw somebody that said it's like, just share the video with the person that said it like, I don't need your cliff notes version of it, because you're just trying to get views. So I think, like asking yourself, like, What's your why? And everyone's going to be different. And then the thing that I've tried to do to varying degrees of success is to be candid about my wins, but also be candid about my failures. I have found that that has given me goodwill with my audience, because it happens so rarely, that when you do fuck up, if you're like, Yeah, you know, I fucked up. And instead of trying to sleep it under the rug, like, here's what happened and whatever, you're not going to win everybody over. But for me. Me, more times than not, people are like, Yeah, you know, I rock with you. You've always you've done that the entire time. I've been a fan of yours. You know, sometimes you get it wrong. You're human. It happens. And then when it comes to, like, speaking on certain things, I always similarly to how I feel when I've been wronged or I have, like, strong feelings about something. When something happens, I try to give myself a moment to make sure I have all the facts. And that has come from mistakes. The story I talk about my book was there was a guy who posted on Facebook that he was throwing out resumes of anybody whose name sounded too black and they like went viral, and everybody was trying to find where he worked. And I was on the case, and I found where he worked, and I posted it on Tumblr. And then we were calling the office, and we were yelling, and blah, blah, blah, and the guy did not work there. We were calling some like, random business, and we were flooding their phone lines, and they had like, an automated, like, off site phone service, and they had just been instructed, if you said, Hey, does Casey Davis work there, they were just supposed to say, Oh yes, we will send her a message, even if you didn't work there. They were just instructed to do that. And so that's what they were doing. And I remember when the company put out a statement, and they were like, that person does not work here. We do not know who that person is. I felt so stupid, and I was like, I was not the sole person responsible, but I had this moment of, if I had just taken, like, two seconds to just one, one, what is my why I want this person fired or like, or do I want to have a conversation about, you know, racism in the workplace and how certain names get like? That's a conversation worth having. But I've decided that this, like, one random guy needs to lose his job, and I need everybody to know about it. And so I jumped in, and I didn't have all the facts, and then you can unring the bell. And so similarly, something will happen in the news, or a celebrity will do something, or whatever. And like, everyone is so fast to be like, I have to respond to this. And it's like, Did it really happen like that? Like, do we know all the information, it doesn't mean that it's not worth talking about. But like, I am not the Associated Press. Like, why do I have to talk about it the minute it happens? The minute it happens? How many times Kate Middleton, perfect example, homegirl, was missing, quote, unquote, she just had cancer. And so many people were like, holy shit. I've made like 30 videos saying that she was kidnapped and she's dead, and conspiracy theories, and we're making all these jokes, and then she comes out, and she's like, Hey everyone, I have cancer. And I was like, now if y'all had just satchel asses down and waited again, like it was weird, the Royal Family handled it poorly. Like, don't get me wrong, but like, everyone was just so quick to have a response. And it's like, sometimes it's okay to just say, I don't have enough information to comment on this.

    KC Davis 28:19

    There's been a couple of times where I have made a video where I've said, like, hey, this thing happened, and a lot of people are talking about it, and I do not have a hot take. I am also processing this thing, this like Zeitgeist event that happened. But I just, you know, it occurs to me that it might feel strange to you that I'm not saying anything, you know, that just to see my content go on and and, you know, I just want you to know like I'm right there with you, like I am also sort of reeling from this whatever, whatever I think I might have posted something similar to that, like when January 6 happened, where it was like, I don't have a comment. I may never have a comment, but I know that some of you sometimes are, like, wondering, like, why do you not seem disturbed by this? And I think sometimes, particularly being a white woman, a lot of people have that, like, fear of like, when, like, are you not saying anything? Because you just don't care if you're not affected. And it's not this, like, demand. It's more like a safety check. It's like, I'm constantly wondering if you are indeed continue to be a safe person. And so sometimes that's like, the best I've come up with, yeah. And

    Franchesca Ramsey 29:34

    I'm also just something that I say all the time is, like, speak up, not over and sometimes, like, you just don't need to hear from me. And like, I would rather reshare, repost someone else's content, you know, or recommend, like, a book or an article or, you know, I oftentimes will read something and I'll just, like, post it on my story. And I'm not saying like, this is the right perspective, or, like, here's why you should read this. It's just like I read. And I thought this was interesting, and I'm sharing it with you. And so people are like, what do you think about blah, blah? Sometimes I'm like, I really have been living my offline life, and I don't know about that thing. And I think, on the one hand, it's flattering when people care what I think, but I often have to remind people like, I'm a comedy writer. Like, yeah, even when I was doing decoded, which was, you know, is a show about race and pop culture, and one that I'm really proud of and opened a lot of doors for me. Like I was reading a teleprompter on that show. I know I'd do a great job at it, but people are like, You are so smart I need to know what you think about a, b and c. And I'm like, I had, like, a team of writers and fact checkers working on that show, and so, like, you were getting a really funny, concise, five minute explainer, but it took like two weeks to write, and it went through all these different channels to make sure that it was correct before it was put out. It was not a hot take. And so, like, now something is happening, and you know, it's like, Will you speak on this thing? And I'm like, do you want me to speak on it because you don't know how you feel about it? Or you want me to filter through how you should feel about it? Or do you actually care how I feel? Because real talk, like, I'm not qualified to speak on a lot of things, like, a lot of times I'm just sharing my opinion. And again, I've gotten to a place where I'm okay, not commenting on every single thing. And I have really been making a conscientious effort in recent years to, like, move away from being, like, the social justice educator. It's tiring. I just I want to, like, be funny and like, Sure, say stuff that's smart too, but like, I don't want to be tasked with, like, oh, this tragedy happened. Like, Francesca has to explain it in like, a minute video that's shareable. Like, I just, like, drew something in my journal that I thought was cool. Look at this. I painted another wall. Like, I'm just, like, I want to do that. And I think people need to give themselves permission to do that again. It's so important to talk about all these issues. But, like, it's weird to me when I'm like, You are a cupcake influencer. Like, why are you explaining to me? Like, geopolitical news with fucking icing? Like, why are you You don't I mean, it's like, when the freaking Johnny Depp trial happened, like, suddenly everyone was like, a body language expert, and I was like, just make your fucking crochet videos and go like, I don't need to hear from you about this. I don't think you're qualified, and I don't think you actually care. You just want the views, like, listen

    KC Davis 32:35

    the nuttiest one that I ever got. This was like six degrees too. Was I had a guest on my podcast to talk about friendship. She left like she did, like an advice column about friendship, and we want to talk about, like, different kinds of friendship. And so I had her on my podcast. She has a tick tock, but, I mean, she had probably, like, 20 or 30,000 followers. There's, like, a very small account, but I just happened on some of fruities. But then I got an email from someone, from a listener that was like, I'm just so disappointed that you had this person on your podcast because, like, they have not used their platform to talk about and like, I don't remember what it was. I don't know if it was like they have not spoken about Palestine, or like they haven't talked about this, like, event that happened, and I remember being like, wait, wait, wait, you're disappointed in me for having a content creator that talks about friendship on because on a completely unrelated social media account where she talks about friendship, she did not make a commentary on some sort of, like geopolitical happening. I was like, This is strange. Yeah,

    Franchesca Ramsey 33:35

    it's also just, it's so interesting to me, like, personally, if I'm going to do someone's podcast, or if I'm working with someone, you know, I do my due diligence, but sometimes it's like, I'm on a panel with someone. I'm like, I don't freaking know this person. I don't know every single thing that they've done or said, and it's like, do you denounce this thing they said in like, this year? And I'm like, yeah, that's pretty fucked up. If I talked to them, I would say that was fucked up, but on the panel, it had no relevance, and I didn't know about it. And I can't go back in time and tell them that I disagree with the thing that they did that I didn't know about until now. Like, I

    KC Davis 34:14

    just not everything needs a press release. Ah,

    Franchesca Ramsey 34:17

    no, it's such a weird way to engage. And I just have to remind myself that people that have the time and energy to devote to that, like, it has really nothing to do with me. It has it's other stuff that has nothing to do with me. And like, I just have to wish them well and hope they figure it out. But it's taken my other time to get there. The

    KC Davis 34:38

    other mind trick that I do sometimes it really works is that I what I noticed is that when people would say really hateful things to me or really critical things to me, I was automatically picturing like a reasonable person that I wanted to like me or agree with me. And so then I felt this like I need to convince them, no, I need to show them if I just explained. And then I was watching Tiktok one time, and it came across those like, street this is, I'll admit, this is a little mean, but it was like street interviews from people at Trump rallies. But like, in particular, the ones that are like, very into conspiracy theories, where they would be like, he's the new Christ. He's the new Christ. I

    Franchesca Ramsey 35:17

    saw him pulling all the strings. But also he's not like, how? And they're like, Well, why

    KC Davis 35:22

    do you think that like? Because I saw his face in my pancake, right? And so what I started doing was realizing, like, Casey, why are you assuming that every person that like is a scholar, like, start thinking of him as this person? And so I did. I'd be like, I would picture it coming out of the mouth of like, the person who thought they saw Trump in their pancake syrup, and then being like, Is this someone that I need to respond to? Like? Is the substance of this necessary like? Do I even care what this person thinks of me? And all of a sudden I was like, so free of a lot of like, because sometimes there was like, a genuine, substantive like, I'm concerned about XYZ, and sometimes it was something where it's like, You're so wrong, and it would be so easy to prove myself right, but also like, I don't care enough because you think Trump's in your pancake. Yeah. I

    Franchesca Ramsey 36:12

    mean, I think that's definitely a way to go about it. And I think, you know, having that offline community that gives you that gut check, because sometimes, like, I've had times like that too, where someone says something that, like, I really don't agree with but there's like, a kernel in there that I'm like, Oh, is that true? I don't know. And so then I sometimes I just have to say to, like, again, my very offline friends who don't know any of the drama or any of the viral whatever, I'm just like, Can I get your read on this? Just tell me, like, what do you think about this? And if they say something like, I don't know. Think that they're right about blah, blah, blah, I'm like, Oh, fuck. Well, you're like, super offline, and I trust you, and I know you, and I know you're gonna give me, like, an unbiased opinion. Then you know again, but it's goes back to that. Why do you want to win internet arguments, or for me, I want to tell untold stories. I want to make people feel seen. Sometimes that means engaging with people who think differently for me so that I can better inform my content. Sometimes that means logging off so I can do a better job at making my content sometimes that means taking time away from the internet so that I can make sure that I'm better informed before I decide to come back and make something. And

    KC Davis 37:25

    sometimes I'll take that, like, kernel of truth and still not engage with someone, because, like, okay, there was a kernel of truth, and I can take that, and I can grow from that. But it's also clear to me that you are a person that is not for me, that like, your intent was to wound me, and so I don't have to come back to you and be vulnerable about that, like, I can take this like, little kernel of gift you gave to me and, like, leave you on red.

    Franchesca Ramsey 37:46

    I mean, we are not meant to engage with 100,000 people's opinions every single day. We're just not I'm not supposed to know what everybody's doing at all times. I'm not supposed to know about like, every like, exciting event in every person's life. I'm not supposed to know about those things at all times. And so sometimes, yeah, sometimes I have, like, a subset of my audience that thinks that we have, like, that parasocial relationship. And again, it's very flattering. But sometimes they'll just like, dump in my inbox and tell me, like, all kinds of crazy things. And I'm like, I know you're going through something, but like, I really don't have the space to take this on. And, like, I just have to say, like, Hey, thank you for sharing this with me. I hope that you are able to, like, find healing and peace. I'm sorry I'm not the person to like, help you with this, you know. Or sometimes I just, like, send them a heart emoji. And I'm like, that's all I can do right now. Like, I'm literally doing 8 million things, and I just saw your long wall of text, and I'm like, I can't, I really can't do this right now, and I also don't know you, and like, I don't want to say the wrong thing. I'm not a therapist, I'm not a marriage counselor, or whatever it might be, and it's just okay to be like, I can't. This isn't for me. I can't do this. I

    KC Davis 39:02

    am one of the like, lessons that I learned when I was running Drug Rehabs that oddly helps me with social media. Because there was a long time where I was getting lots of emails and DMS about, like, people's personal and they're heart wrenching. And I especially, you know, setting myself as a book creator who's like, trying to give helpful tips to people struggling. It's like I wanted to answer every single one, and I wanted to help every single one. And I took it really hard if someone was like, hey, that tip didn't work for me. And I realized that, like, My why is, like, I'm here to build a really good net, not to go fishing with a fishing pole. So, like, I'm not worried about, like, every fish on the line. I'm not here to save everyone or to fix everyone's problems, yeah. Like, I'm here to make a really good net, knowing that some people will not get caught up, like, some people will pass through, some people won't be helped by it, but in general, like, I have a structure of creating content and education that lots of people can kind of get caught up in, in a good way, and that was always kind of a helpful way, because it's hard to like. Catch and release. You know what I mean, when you kind of feel like, oh, gosh, this person really kind of dumped this shout

    Franchesca Ramsey 40:04

    out to you for keeping that fish analogy going, catch and release. Thank you. Yeah, catch

    KC Davis 40:10

    and release. There you go. Francesca, this has been such a great conversation, and I'm glad that I waited till I had like the perfect person to have it, because you are just such a grounding person to talk to, and I appreciate your perspectives a lot, and especially on this.

    Franchesca Ramsey 40:25

    Thank you so much. That means a lot. And like I said before, I am such a fan of your work and what you bring to this space. I think you do a really good job of navigating challenging conversations with a huge audience. And I'm just very honored that I am in community with you, and that I've been able to learn from you and, yeah, and that we've been able to have, like, a fun but heartfelt conversation. I really appreciate it. Thank

    KC Davis 40:49

    you. If people want to follow you, where can they find you?

    Franchesca Ramsey 40:51

    I'm on Instagram at Chesca Lee, C, H, E, S c, a, l, e, i, G, H, my website is francesca.net Francesca F, R, a, n, C, H, E, S, C, a.net, and then I'm on tick tock as Francesca Lee. Somebody else got my got my username. I'm usually, I'm usually tuscali everybody everywhere. But if you just search Chesca Lee or Francesca Ramsey on tick tock, you

    KC Davis 41:14

    can find me Awesome. Well, have a great day.

    Franchesca Ramsey 41:17

    Thank you. You too. You

Christy Haussler
110: How to be a Content Creator without Wrecking Your Mental Health with Franchesca Ramsey

Today’s episode is a conversation I’ve been wanting to have for awhile, and I’ve found the perfect person for this topic. Franchesca Ramsey is an actor, writer, public speaker, and longtime content creator. She wrote and performed in the web series MTV Decoded, where she tackled race, pop culture, and other uncomfortable topics. Other notable accomplishments include writing for The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore and a nomination for an NAACP award for one of the best books of 2018: Well, That Escalated Quickly: Memoirs and Mistakes of an Accidental Activist. Franchesca shares her expertise and insights on longevity and mental health as a content creator. Join us to learn more!

Show Highlights:

  • Burnout is real in the content creation world.

  • Lessons learned about life and authenticity as a content creator, influencer, and vlogger

  • Are you putting your time and energy in the wrong place?

  • You have to censor yourself EVERY day!

  • Impulsive reactions on social media can have severe consequences. Give yourself space to step back.

  • Prioritizing joy in your content and not reacting with anger

  • The nature of social media

  • Strengthening internal boundaries by getting comfortable with being misunderstood

  • Thoughts on cancel culture and negative backlash

  • Our conversation is so good that we don’t want it to end. We will continue with Part 2 with Franchesca in next week’s episode!

Resources and Links:

Connect with Franchesca Ramsey: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and book

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC Davis 0:05

    Hello the, sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle. Care. I'm your host, KC Davis, where we talk about all things individual and systemic that affect your mental health, your wellness, and occasionally just things that interest me. And so I am really excited about today's episode. This is a conversation I've been wanting to have for a while. I haven't found the right person to have it with, and so I have Francesca Ramsey with me in the studio. Francesca, thank you for being here. Oh,

    Franchesca Ramsey 0:29

    thank you for having me. Casey, I'm such a big fan. I've been a longtime fan of yours, so it's long overdue for us to chat. Well, thank

    KC Davis 0:36

    you. I was so starstruck when you, like, tweeted at me on Twitter. I was like, wait, wait, wait, what?

    Speaker 1 0:44

    Yeah, I've been following you on Tiktok for a minute at that point. And then, you know, I made, I did this thing where I pulled a video from Tiktok to Twitter, which I'm sure we'll talk about that at some point, when I was like, oh, man, I feel like I should let her know that it was me. If people are starting to get weird so,

    KC Davis 1:02

    and they did, they always do. If those of you at home don't know who Francesca Ramsey is, let me give you a little breakdown, and then I'll let you also introduce yourself, right? But Francesca's an actor, writer, public speaker, longtime content creator, and you've done lots of stuff. You did the web series MTV decoded. You've been a writer for The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore, and you also have an NAACP award for one of the best Amazon books in 2018

    Franchesca Ramsey 1:29

    Well, I got a nomination. I lost the award to Michelle Obama, which I'm totally okay with, right? I mean, we knew she was gonna win. I knew.

    KC Davis 1:39

    And you wrote a book called, well, that escalated quickly, and I believe it's memoirs and mistakes of an accidental activist. Okay, so you're the perfect person to have this conversation with, because I want to talk about longevity and mental health and being a content creator. And you've been doing this a long time, and I've been doing this a short time. And in my short time of doing this, I think I started in 2020, and it was totally accidental. I have had to learn a lot of really hard lessons, and I have wanted to quit a few times, and I have watched other content creators quit?

    Franchesca Ramsey 2:21

    Yeah, burnout is real, and I think especially because this career field is so new, and most of us, you know, you can go online and you can see a lot of people working as content creators, but in your real offline life, do you know a lot of people that are long term content creators, probably not, and so creating community for me has been really important. But I've I've felt myself get burnt out. I've watched other people get burnt out. I started making videos in 2006 so my senior year of college right after YouTube had been founded, there really was no blueprint. And I think for me, the thing that's given me longevity, as I approach almost 20 years, which is bonkers to say, is taking time off. And I think a lot of influencers and creators, they're like, I'm gonna go all in, which is not a bad thing. But when you're self employed, you can essentially work all the time. And when your content, when your life is the content, the lines get blurred between, like, living life and living life for the purpose of creating content. And somehow I just had the foresight to not do that to myself. Yeah, that's actually

    KC Davis 3:41

    one of the things I wanted to ask you about. Is because I just wanna delve into your brain about, like, the lessons that you've learned. And that is one of them. Because not only do I see people burn out, so I see people like, flame out, burn out. I also see people quit because they're like, it's too much and I can't do it anymore. I also you see people, quote, unquote, get canceled, and then they quit, or they, you know, they just can't recover. And one of the things that I wanted to ask about is this idea of, when it comes to, like, the content creation, influencer, vlogger world, there's this idea of authenticity, where, you know, it's not just the product you're putting out there. It is also you. It's your life, your personality. And there's all this emphasis on authenticity. And I'm curious, like, how you lessons you've learned about boundaries, because I feel like that's where a lot of us get into trouble. It's like there's a difference between authenticity and transparency. And you had a Tiktok recently where you talked about, there was someone talking about their frustrations, learning that white content creators were often paid more than black content creators, and there was this frustration, and you made this Tiktok response where you had said, like, hey, that is like a real issue, and we need to talk about it. And it is valid to be upset about. And one of the things that you see a lot of newer content creators do is we don't have a buffer between experiencing something and then jumping online to talk about it

    Franchesca Ramsey 5:14

    and turning it into and turning it into content. And it's it is, it's hard. When I made that video, there were a lot of people that were like, there was differing responses to it, where people were like, you know, don't tone police, don't respectability politics, all these things. And I was like, Look, I know these words, and I think you're using them in the wrong way, because I am not saying that you should not be angry if you're not paid fairly. What I'm saying is when something happens. I mean, it could be the smallest grievance ever. I mean, you see influencers do this all the time, where they're like, I ordered something at this restaurant and it didn't come on time, and then they make a video about it, and you're like, Okay, I understand that you're pissed off, but like this becoming content, what is the purpose? And similarly, if you want to talk about pay disparity, which I think we absolutely should, if your goal is to be paid fairly, making a video the minute you find out about it is not the way to do it. And I saw a number of influencers, one in particular that was saying, you know, my manager reps these white creators, and they're making more than me. And I was like, so you should be talking to your manager, not to us, because if your manager is telling you my white clients are getting paid more than you, then Mom, why you my manager earn that 10% but now you come on social media and you tell us about it, and you you look really tone deaf to Your audience, like your audience is like you're complaining about 1000s of dollars for Instagram posts, other brands are thinking, Oh, if the deal's not right, she or he or they are, they gonna go on the internet and argue and talk about it versus talking to us behind the scenes to get it right? They might be too risky. And so I say that from a place of I have made that I have made that mistake I will never forget. I was working on my first TV job was the Nightly Show, and I was really struggling. And one night after that, we, after we taped Larry, my boss sat us in the office to go through. How do we feel about the episode? And he asked me how I was doing, and I was really, I don't remember what I was upset about, but I was really stressing out. And he said, Well, maybe if you weren't on Twitter so much, you wouldn't be stressed. And I had a moment of, oh my God, my boss is seeing me talk shit on Twitter when I'm supposed to be in my office writing jokes for the episode, and now here I am stressed about if I did a good job or not, because I was putting my time and energy into Twitter. And it was a huge perspective shift for me, because even when I was right with who I was arguing with on Twitter, I was putting my time and energy in the wrong place. And I think that's something a lot of creators, they struggle with, that balance your grievances can be absolutely legitimate, but I have to ask myself, what's the result that I'm looking for? What's the purpose of sharing this on the internet? Am I looking for the instant gratification of Yeah, girl, you're right, blah, blah, blah, or do I want a solution to the problem? And you know, I think that can happen. Sometimes you can get both, but I'm of the mind. It's never going to hurt you to just take a moment to calm down before you decide how you want to move forward. It

    KC Davis 8:36

    seems like it's a hard lesson to learn, and there's not really anybody to tell us when this point comes, but Tiktok is such a different animal than all other social media that we've really been familiar with in the past. Like it used to be that we had our personal Facebooks and our personal Twitters, and then if you uploaded on something on YouTube, there was this understanding that it's like this is cultivated for an audience. And then you used your like, personal, you know, Instagram or Facebook, for your kind of unfiltered reactions to your day, and it was just the people that you knew listening to that, and they knew your intentions and your backgrounds and whatever, whatever. And when Tiktok really started blowing up, I feel like a lot of us started Tiktok just like our facebook, and it was just our friends we were following, and then, like, but as they blew up and as they got big, there has to be this, like, turning point of, like, Oh, this isn't my personal social media in the sense of, like, Facebook anymore. Like, I can't just this isn't just my unfiltered thoughts, or at least if it is going to be be aware that's going to get me in trouble, and I probably can't use this as a career.

    Franchesca Ramsey 9:40

    Yeah. I think with the thing that a lot of people struggle with, like, when you mention authenticity, I've seen this with a lot of younger creators. And just for context, I turned 40 last year, and not to be like, That's old, but maybe you've had this experience too, where I'm starting to see my 30s and 20s with, like, this different lens, where I'm. Like, Oh my God. I just didn't know there was just so much life I hadn't experienced. And one thing I see a lot of young people saying when it comes to authenticity is, I'm not going to censor myself like I'm just I am who I am. And I think you have to censor yourself every day, like you, you know, if your boss smells like a butthole. You don't say, like, Hey, you smell like a butthole. You just go like, Oh, my boss smells a little funky today. And you go about you. You just don't say everything that comes into your head. It's the same thing with building a brand online. You can be authentic without sharing everything. And some people think, oh, that's being fake. Or, you know, you're playing the game. It's like, well, I mean, maybe a little bit of both, but the same way that when you you know, when Beyonce is doing a meet and greet, you're not getting the Beyonce that's at home without her bra on, you know, like, that's a different Beyonce. I don't know that Beyonce behind closed doors, she's somebody else, but when she's at work, she's this version. And similarly So, when I'm on social media, you're seeing Francesca, but you're not seeing all of Francesca. There's stuff that I save for my friends and my partner and my family and whoever else you know. And so learning how to delineate what is for the audience's consumption? What opinions you maybe should keep to yourself? What drama should maybe be on the internet? If you have drama with someone you actually want to squash, maybe you got to talk to them offline. You have slide in their DMS to your point about the tick tock of it all, that algorithm will pick you up and show you to millions of people, and I've started, or for a while, I've thought about who is the person I don't want to see this content. If I have that person in mind, I shouldn't post it on then or because it could potentially get to them. Yeah,

    KC Davis 11:59

    and I want to talk about that the drama of it all for a minute, because two of the big things I wanted to hit was like, how you like lessons you've learned in dealing with like online hate, and also like lessons in online drama, like, I feel like when my account was smaller, you know, I would stitch a creator and say, like, I disagree with this person, or like, I find this person fundamentally flawed, or I this value set is ridiculous, right? And I hit a critical mass of followers to where, no matter how right I was or how tactful I was trying to be, it created this huge ripple effect of people like going to that person's page. And then it became about how I was sending my followers. And then it was like, okay, yeah,

    Franchesca Ramsey 12:45

    and I've even seen you, and I commend you, because I've seen a number of times where you're like, I am not telling anybody to go after this person, but they still do it anyway. And it is that thing of like, you can't unring the bell, and I've learned that lesson many a time. I told a story in my book about someone I don't even remember what exactly I think we were talking about, like victim blaming or something on Twitter, and a girl was in my mentions, and she said something along the lines of, like, Yeah, well, if you get assaulted, then it was probably your fault or something like that. And I ran, like, just reamed her out. I was like, and then, like, a few hours later, when I reread our conversation, I realized she was talking about herself. She was saying that she had been assaulted and that something that she had done had led to it, and by the time I realized it, my followers were just laying into her, and I was I felt so terrible. I DMed her, I deleted the tweet immediately, and I DMed her, and I was like, I misread your comment, and I'm so sorry. You did nothing wrong. And I and she never replied, and I just felt so heartbroken by it, and it reminded it was an eye opening moment for me that the impulsive reaction on my part to be right ended up having severe consequences, and also, because it was a public conversation, despite the fact that I was only replying to her, I didn't quote tweet her. It was still on the internet, and everyone could chime in. And the performance of social media encourages folks to not be thoughtful, not have nuance. It's like, WWE wrestling. It's like, I'm gonna wind up and I'm gonna drop on you, not because that's the right move, but because everyone's gonna see it, and so yeah,

    KC Davis 14:41

    and I had a few times, more than a few times, where I've made a response video that was snarky or sarcastic or clap back, and would have been a stellar, totally reasonable response, except I misunderstood what the person was saying. In my head, I always hear like, friendly fire, friendly fire, like I ended. Up really just blowing up some poor, vulnerable person, or, like, you know, I end up seeing them as, you know, a full human afterwards who maybe just made a mistake, versus someone who was really trying to be cruel. And those are always the times when I'm like, I need to step back for a minute because I'm now in a state that's so reactive. And typically, that reactivity is because I've gone through an onslaught of hate, of people who are clearly just trying to be cruel, people who are pursuing my suffering, and

    Franchesca Ramsey 15:32

    then it gets really hard to distinguish. I've had that issue too, where you have so many people asking questions that are not in good faith or misrepresenting what you're saying. So then you get a random comment. And something that I've done is I'm answering so many comments at once that, like I respond to somebody that I meant to respond to somebody else, or I think again, I just like, read too fast or something. And so again, like giving yourself space to step back and say like the internet is not making me feel good right now, I'm getting either a lot of negative feedback or I'm consuming a lot of negative content that's making me feel bad, and I need a break, and I think more influencers, again, need to give themselves space for that, and that's one reason that I always encourage folks to have multiple streams of income. Because, you know, here we are, Tiktok might not be here next year, and that is going to have devastating effects for a number of reasons, but for some people that Tiktok is their bread and butter, it could potentially be really devastating, but even for your own mental health, when you're like, have to make videos. I have to respond to comments. I have to no no, no, no, no. If I'm starting to feel tense, I'm like, I have to take a break. I have to put the phone down to go outside. I have to hang out with my offline friends who don't know anything about social media and live my life, because this is not productive. And, you know, there's been this whole conversation about like content creator versus influencer, which I think is kind of like semantics. But personally, I don't feel like my brain is suited for creating anything when I'm angry or upset, I mean, sometimes, but I'm really trying to prioritize like, joy in my content, and I can't do that if I'm thinking about like, how someone's gonna misinterpret it, or what the haters are gonna say. Like, that's not a good place to create from.

    KC Davis 17:38

    Yeah, and I find myself sometimes feel like I'm backed into this corner where not responding makes me feel powerless, like makes me feel like a doormat, like I should just sit here and take it, and I have some of my own trauma and my background to where, like when I feel like I'm getting the messaging, just be the bigger person. Just allow yourself just take it. Just take it. Just absorb it. Just absorb it. Yeah, I get to a place where it like clicks off something in me, and I feel really angry about my perception of the expectation that I just sit there and take it, and I lash out, and I clap back, and I feel like I have I'm constantly thinking about the way that I respond to those things, because there's been ways that I've responded where I feel empowered, and then there's ways that I've responded where it feels good for my ego in the moment, and then I end up regretting it. And then there's ways that I respond that I think, okay, all right, that's not some big, huge mistake, but like, what do I want to do differently? And I'm still trying to find that middle ground because it doesn't feel good to become the person that I hate. You know what I mean? Like to just utilize my power to squish you because you've hurt me. But it also doesn't feel good to just like completely ignore all of it, and I'm still trying to find that inner you know, that middle ground of can I Is there a place where I get to stand up for myself, or defend myself or not, have to feel that way that doesn't crush people, and I don't know,

    Franchesca Ramsey 19:08

    yeah, I mean, I don't have an answer. It's something that I grapple with too. But I will say the first time I encountered your content was when you were making those cards where you were talking about, like, bad faith arguments and like, you know, rhetorical devices and stuff. And I really loved that because, to your point about standing up for yourself, it felt like that's what you were doing in that content. You weren't directing it at one specific person. You were saying, here is something that I've encountered, and I'm going to explain to you why it's bad faith, why it doesn't work, how you can spot it, and you were taking your power back in that way. And that's something that I've been trying to do more than my content, like, if I see a trend in my comments, or I've encountered a certain type of person that is just, you know. Sticking in my craw, instead of giving them the spotlight, how can I take that feeling and turn it into content that makes me feel like I am giving it, like letting go of it, having power over me, but also like doing something that helps my audience? Because if I'm encountering this thing that I know they are and I can, or even sometimes, if I comment on drama, you know, for example, this influencer this conversation about pay disparities, I'm like, I can talk about this without saying the influencers name. I can talk about this without being like, here's why they're wrong and like, what you need to learn. And I can make it about what I've learned, my experience, things that I've encountered, ways that I would do things differently. And I can use that grain of situation as a jumping off point without making it about that. So that if you don't even know about the drama, you're just like, oh, this was really great advice. They don't, they don't, they don't have to know who I'm talking about. And I feel like, to your point about, like, the algorithm and drama and whatever, I also feel like it then you don't get caught up in, like, the discourse wave, where then like, everybody's commenting it. I feel like it attracts like a more authentic audience. Like, I'm like, Oh, this video is not going to go viral because I didn't say this influencers name and this data. But guess what, the comments are a lot better because there's people who actually care and want the information, and they don't want to just like, fight. And when

    KC Davis 21:35

    you get to actually talk about the subject, like, one of the things that I have noticed happens is that, you know, I'll start out with a commentary or even a criticism or whatever, and that's what I want to talk about. And I have good points and I'm not maybe I didn't say every single word perfectly, or maybe some, you know, in a real conversation, I might say something and you go, Oh, what about this? Will be like, yeah, actually, let me amend that one sentence. But of course, in Tiktok, it's a one snapshot in time, right? So, but what happens when it's a stitch, or when you say the person's name, or when whatever, not that that's always wrong, but really quickly, what becomes the center of the conversation is whether I did it right. And so now I have to defend whether I did it right, whether I said it right, whether I'm being a big old meanie or whether it was okay to say and then the other person, and then everyone feels like they have to take sides, like, well, I'm with this person. Why unfold that person? Why? And I'm really it's like now the conversation and the content and the replies and the videos are about me and whether I did an okay thing and not the actual subject that I wanted to talk about. Yeah,

    Franchesca Ramsey 22:39

    and I think that that's also just, unfortunately, the nature of social media, like it just doesn't lend itself to giving folks grace. And it is all about the hot take. It's very black and white. It's who's right and wrong, rather than like. And to be fair, there are some instances where like someone is wrong, right? Like someone has harmed someone, someone has broken the law, right? Like someone has, you know, abused someone. Like, those are situations where, like, yes, there is a right and there's a wrong, and then there's a bunch of situations where, like, there's Shades of Gray, where you're like, oh, I don't agree with that, but I can see how you got there. Or Or I've done something similar, and here's how I got to a different place, right? It's just way more nuanced than like, right and wrong. And I'm of the mind that some conversations are just not meant to be had in a one minute video. They're better for a podcast, they're better for an email. Sometimes they're just not suited for a public consumption. I've had a number of offline conversations with influencers and even some celebrities where I just, like, sit in their DMS and I was like, Yo, you getting eaten up right now? I can let you know why, if you want to talk about it, I can let you know I put the ball on the court, I say, like, I know you're getting inundated right now. And I think this is what's helped me, is I say I know people are coming at you left and right. If you want to hear another perspective, I'm here, and we could do it offline. And it doesn't have to be it's not a public conversation. It's totally off the record. Take it or leave it. And I will tell you I've had so many times where people have taken me up on it. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't, but even when it didn't, it ended in from a place of like, hey, you know, thanks for reaching out. Nobody has done this. Everybody has done it publicly, and you're the first person who seemed to, like, actually care. And for me, I'm like, Yeah, I do. That's why I don't. I don't need it to go viral. I really don't, which is why I've had a number of times where people are like, this is disingenuous, because you're blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, I mean, that's how you feel. But I could tell you for sure, I have people on my inbox that you've seen on TV that are asking me for advice. And guess what? I can offer it to them because I I believe that they want to learn, and I want them to learn. I don't care about going viral. I don't that's not how I pay my bills. That's like a fun bonus. I'm genuinely, like, just very interested in communication and how we learn and mistakes, like all that stuff is just very fascinating to me. The most

    KC Davis 25:19

    helpful, like internal boundary that I had to strengthen, I think, with having a big platform was being comfortable with being misunderstood.

    Franchesca Ramsey 25:31

    Say that again,

    KC Davis 25:32

    I had to get really comfortable with walking away knowing that this person doesn't has misunderstood me, has misunderstood my character has misunderstood my point, because I will fall into the trap of arguing back and forth about, you know, being right, and I just the other boundary that came from that was and it happened recently, because what was it? Oh, I was drinking. I made a joke video, and I had one of those Starbucks drinks that you to the gas station, and very quickly got lit up by people angry that I was drinking Starbucks, because a lot of people are participating in a Starbucks boycott right now. And I had responded in comments like, hey, like, I actually have, like, read a ton about this boycott, and I participated from a union perspective for about six months. And kind of it seemed like it was a little aimless, for my taste, in terms of knowing what to do next. And so I went more for the BDS list of boycotts. And, you know, prefer to do XYZ towards, like, things about I care about with unions. Whatever the point is is, I was like, listen, I wasn't that was not in my thoughts when my husband bought me, like a $2 drink from the gas station. But, of course, like the Tiktok, doesn't do a lot of nuance and but one of the response to that was, as I was telling someone that was, they were like, Yeah, right. Just say that you care more about your creature comforts than you do. You know people's human rights and go or

    Franchesca Ramsey 26:54

    whatever. They've already decided. They've already

    KC Davis 26:57

    decided, yeah. And so I just what I said and what I've started to say at that point, instead of arguing, is I say I don't argue about my character and intentions with people like that period in a paragraph, like, I will give you a good faith response if you have an issue. Like, I will explain what I thought, or I don't want people to think the wrong thing, you know, if someone says I haven't seen you post anything about, you know, the Palestinian genocide, and I'll say, Hey, I've done lots of retweets. I actually have an active fundraiser. Like, I'll I'll inform someone, or I'll say, Hey, let me give you some more information. But once we get into well, you're only doing that because of this. Well, you just did that because of the PR. Well, you and it's like, at this point, I'm the only one that knows the truth. You have no way of knowing what my motives or character is, and like, you get to make your decision, but like, this is a hard boundary for me, because you're not going to be convinced. Like, I don't argue about my character. Yeah,

    Franchesca Ramsey 27:48

    they've already made up their mind. I mean, again, not to be a broken record. But this, I think, is what you explained so brilliantly in your series with those cards. It's like, these are bad faith arguments. The person, when someone says to you, oh, so you doing X, Y and Z, that's not a good faith they have. They are telling you what you did. They're not asking you what you did. They're telling you what you or what they believe that you did. And so at that point, it is a losing game, and I will admit I am someone who loves to have the last word, so it is some and I have learned that the sad in me hates being misunderstood, and especially because I really make an effort to choose my words so carefully. I am a writer. I get paid for my words, for my thoughts, and so it's very frustrating when people one of my biggest pet peeves is when people put quotation marks around something I haven't said, and I often just say, you can't put quotation marks around something that I have not said. That's not how quotes work. That's not how quotes work unless you're using it for sarcasm, like you know, or you know, or you're quoting a specific word. But you can't put a whole sentence together and put slam two quotes on the end of it and say it came from me, because I know it did it. One thing about Francesca, I'm a banker. I love receipts. Show me where I said it. Point on the doll where Francesca said X, Y and Z. You can't so to your point, it's just a waste of your time and energy, and that's just again, a time when you have to step away from the internet. I have to remind myself that we are very loud about the things that we don't like. We're not as loud about the things that we do like, and so it can often feel like everyone is screaming at you, and maybe that's true, but there's also a lot of people who really enjoy your content, who are just passively enjoying it, and they're just not saying anything about it. And then you step away from the internet. And my best girlfriend, I call her my work wife. She and I are exact opposites. She is the most offline person ever, and anytime I will tell her about some drama going on online, she's like, What are you talking. About, like, no one knows who what. And I'm like, Oh, right. Like people in the real world do not know about this. And even, like, a million people saw this video, okay, a million people feels like a lot of people. It's not a lot of people. Like, when you walk out of your front door and you ask someone on the street, Hey, did you see this thing, blah, blah, blah. They're like, No, what are you talking about? But a million people saw it yet. But like, no one on this block saw it, no one at your job probably saw it's like a bubble, you know,

    KC Davis 30:38

    I have so many of those little tricks it because I feel like it comes down to two things, like not taking the bait, but then when you do accidentally take the bait, it's also, like managing the fight or flight of like I'm being misunderstood. I'm gonna get canceled. People didn't understand what I said. Now they think that I said this horrible thing, blah, blah. And like, one of the funny mind tricks that I do is, like, if I make a video and I say something, and maybe I it was wrong, or maybe it was just off color, or was tone deaf, or whatever was it ever I decided to take it down. And then, you know, to manage that feeling of like, I need to make another video. I need to explain and re explain it over explain it. I'll sometimes, like, look at the video and it's like, okay, 12,000 people saw this video, and I'm getting hundreds and hundreds of comments of how awful I am. Sometimes what I'll do is, I'll look at it and I'll be like, okay, 12,000 people, and then I'll be like, every single person that saw this video unfollowed me for it. How many followers would I still have? And I'm always like, honestly, like, 12,000 compared to 1.6 million. Like, is not that big of a deal if 12,000 people saw a mistake and decided they were done with me for it. And I don't see that to be like, egotistical, or to say that, like, you know that I don't care about the people who follow me, but like, my brain goes to this place where it's like, oh my god, if I don't over explain this mistake I made, my career is over. And just reminding myself like, No, it's not. It really isn't.

    Franchesca Ramsey 31:56

    No, it's not. I mean, I say this all the time, but cancel culture is not real. And that's not to say that sometimes we don't experience consequences for our words and actions, and sometimes those are rightful consequences, and sometimes they are unjust consequences. That is the world that we live in. But ultimately, negative backlash. It doesn't, unfortunately, more oftentimes than not, it propels people's career, and I see it all the time on Tiktok. Now, people have gotten very wise to the fact that if you put the right words together, and you can get people upset, you can make a nice little check, and you can maybe get a podcast and and start doing public speaking. So again, I care more about maintaining my morals throughout my work, and sometimes that means when you stray, your audience is going to have a negative reaction. And what I can only hope for, and I think that you've done a good job with, is cultivating an audience that feels that they respect you enough to let you know when you fucked up, and cultivating an offline community, which is what I talk about a lot. I think a lot of influencers lack is some people who will really let you know. They will slide in your DMS. They will pull you to the side. You know, I've had times where I was like sub tweeting and just going off, and I'll have a friend text me and say, girl, you Okay? I see you on Twitter. Uh, everything, okay? And I'm like, Oh, I'm going through some online. I'll never forget my friend Angelica Ross, who is an actress, and she has become a good friend of mine, but we met via social media. She did that to me a few times. She said, Girl, come over, turn Twitter off. Let's lay by the pool, just chill. And I was like, wow, I needed that so badly. And when I see people spiraling online, I often think, God, I just they must not have somebody, or maybe they're just not listening to them. But I definitely think some of them are in real time sharing every single thing, because they don't have that group chat that they could say, oh, this thing pissed me off, and they can all tell you, you're right. Don't post that online, though. All right,

    KC Davis 34:15

    y'all, this conversation is so great, I don't want to end it early, so I'm gonna go ahead and split me and Francesca's conversation into two parts. So stay tuned for next Monday, where I will release the second half of this phenomenal interview. You.

Christy Haussler