I’m excited to have Rev. Lizzie return to the show today to discuss her new book, God Didn't Make Us To Hate Us. Rev. Lizzie is an Episcopal priest who has become a good friend–and is always a fun guest! Join us!
Show Highlights:
Rev. Lizzie’s new book—and why she wrote it
Considering the question, “Why do I believe what I believe?”
The truth about Christianity means telling the WHOLE story.
The comfort in being loved by God when we’ve been told by people that we are “bad and broken”
Living in joy is THE goal.
The four parts of Rev. Lizzie’s book
A list of books which are foundational pieces of Rev. Lizzie’s faith journey
Listen in while Rev. Lizzie reads a moving excerpt from her book about her birthing experience, sin, and God’s perfect love.
Resources and Links:
Connect with Rev. Lizzie: TikTok, Instagram, and God Didn't Make Us To Hate Us
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC Davis 0:00
Music. Hello, sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to Struggle Care. I am your host, KC Davis, and we are back in the studio today with Rev Lizzie. Thank you so much for coming back to talk
Rev. Lizzie 0:13
to us. Oh my God, my joy, my pleasure. It's so good to see you, and I'm so glad to be back. Thanks for having me. So
KC Davis 0:19
we're gonna be talking about your new book today, but if, in case, any of our listeners don't know, you give me a short little intro.
Rev. Lizzie 0:25
Yeah, so I'm Lizzy. I use she her pronouns. You can call me Lizzy or father Lizzie or rev Lizzie, and I'm an Episcopal priest. The Episcopal Church is kind of a funny blend of Catholic and Protestant. So if you've ever been to a Catholic mass, if you were to walk through the doors of my church here in North Austin Jubilee, you'd be like, Oh, this is pretty familiar smells and bells and chausables and all sorts of fancy, really old stuff that we do. But we are also known to be a denomination that ordains and affirms queer leadership, women in leadership. If you've seen those fantastic that fantastic sermon by Bishop buddy, she's one of ours at the Washington National Cathedral, love a win for the home team. And I'm also now an author. And I wrote a book called God didn't make us to hate us 40 devotions to liberate your faith from fear and reconnect with joy. And I wrote it because of Tiktok, because I had been asked 1000s of times, not only questions about, you know, theology and spirituality and faith. And you know, how can I be a queer woman who loves Jesus and works for the church? That seems to be a continual mystery for many people, but also because I knew that there weren't like the devotional market is just so flooded with really shallow theology, but it is also such an accessible entry point for so many people to practice their faith and to have that like daily connection and time with God and within themselves. And so I wanted to offer something that could interrupt that space with hopefully a little bit more meat on the bone, so to speak, theologically, and also a whole lot of love and liberation for folks to know that God actually made us for joy and for flourishing. I
KC Davis 1:59
love that. And I have such a sort of nostalgia with meditation books. Because when I was in rehab, when I was like, 16, that was a big thing, like, we were made to, like, meditate every morning and pray, and I was agnostic and so but I appreciated, like, some of the meditation books for, like, being comforting, and that was, like, a big part of my spirituality for a long time was just like various meditation books, especially because it's like a small little snippet, you know, every day, and not some big long read. And so that, like meditation books, I think, were probably a big part of, like, building a foundation of thinking about who I thought God was. And it's interesting you mentioned, like, the questions that you get online about, like, how can you be religious, you know, how can you, you know, subscribe to Christianity? I get similar questions. Like, people will often ask, like, you know, how can you be a part of a religion that has been a part of colonizing and death and oppression and these things? And I think a lot of people expect for me to have, like, come back to that. And, I mean, my answer is always like, yeah, I get it. Like, I would have different religion if I was picking, you know, if you're like, Well, how can you still believe? And I'm like, I don't believe. Wasn't a choice, really for me. I could no more unbelieve The things that I believe about, like, God in the universe that I, as I could, like, decide to believe in, Santa Claus. Like my husband and I talk about all the time where we kind of laugh about, like, if belief was, I mean, I think, like, adherence is a choice, right? You're what you do with your actions is a choice. But like, at the end of the day, what you believe? Like, if I had a choice, I wouldn't have picked this one. There are, it's problematic. Yeah,
Rev. Lizzie 3:42
it is. I cherish you sharing that for a lot of reasons. One, because I get those same questions. And two, I clearly did choose, right? Like, it like I didn't. Just wasn't born a priest. You know, although we do joke that my family's full of Levites because my mother's a Methodist pastor, and actually going, like, way back generations and generations back. I have Catholic priests for uncles. I have Presbyterian clergy ancestors. So like, clearly it is, like, we joke the family business, but I teach a confirmation class, which in the Episcopal Church, that's kind of our moment of I like to say, it's saying yes to God's Yes. It's us saying, You know what, yeah, I am committing and making these promises for myself, and not just committing to God, but also committing to the church, and not to the church as a perfect, unblemished institution, but for all of her flaws, saying, I want to be a part of all that we are, and to be a part of God moving through the church. And I do happen to believe God is perfect, even if people aren't. And one of the things I teach when I'm teaching the history portion of that class, because the Episcopal church comes out of the Church of England, which was born, kind of because Henry the Eighth, who sucked, wanted a divorce. You know, what a terrible origin story,
KC Davis 4:52
not the holiest of beginnings, no, but,
Rev. Lizzie 4:54
and there's like a little bit, as there tends to be, there's like more historical complexity than that, but that is the sort of. Quick answer. But the thing I always, I actually asked people at the start of the class, I'm like, for a fun little icebreaker, I'm like, Tell me about a celebrity you've met, not someone you, like, saw in concert, like you have to have had a conversation with them. They don't have to remember you, but you have to have met them. And so that's always, like, a fun little icebreaker. And then as we go through the sort of like, here's the history, here's Henry the Eighth, here's sort of the big figures of how this church came to be. I'm like now, remember that celebrity question, Henry the Eighth was a celebrity, and while certainly his actions had an impact on us, even today, the reality is is most people were living their everyday, ordinary faith with little to no care for who he was and what he was doing, because God was still moving in their lives. You know, people were still seeking God for their healing. People were still having babies and getting those babies baptized. People were having babies and losing them and praying to God to be with them, praying to Our Lady who knows what it is to lose a child. I mean, like the everyday faith of people, the everyday faith of oppressed people, the everyday faith of colonized people also matters to me, and I think it is disrespectful to their faith and their work and their legacy. Think about that a lot right now, fresh from Martin Luther King Day, you know, he was a man of great faith who was descended from people who had been told that God wanted them to be slaves, and yet he was a Christian preacher fighting against segregation and racism in this country because of his faith, I think it's disrespectful to say that Christianity is only a religion of colonizers and problematic people, even as hear me, like we need to tell the truth about that, like that's a problem. I'm not a co signing on Christian imperialism or Christian nationalism, but I think if we're going to tell the whole story, we got to tell the whole story, we got to tell the whole story. You
KC Davis 6:46
know, I'm with you. And I think also, like, like I mentioned, like, adherence is definitely a choice. But what I find interesting, like as a therapist, is I'll talk to people who are not religious, and, you know, but maybe they grew up in a kind of either a religious environment, or at least a religious society like, I think there are still a lot of puritanism in like American society. And yes, one of the things that they'll struggle with was we'll be in these deep conversations about how much shame they feel. And, okay, well, why do you feel this shame? Well, I just, you know, I'm broken. Well, I made these choices, and they were so bad, and how can I accept love now? Because I'm so bad and I'm so broken, and I feel like I was just inherently broke. And what people don't often realize, as they're saying, is that they are speaking theology. They are telling me what theology they believe. And wouldn't it be great if you could just go, I'm just gonna decide today that I'm not a piece of shit. I'm just going to decide today that I can forgive myself for the things that I done. But the reality is, most of us, when we have those kinds of hang ups, they are theological hang ups. And even if we don't believe in God, those beliefs came from a either a religious system or a religious person or religious influence on culture that we either they were either wrong and we rightly understood them, or perhaps some people were, you know, correct, but we misunderstood them. But the point is, is that that feeling of, I can't just decide to not hate myself is the same conundrum of me saying like, I can't just decide that I don't believe about, you know, the world and its deities the way that I do now. I can choose what I do about that. I can go through a process of being open to questions and being open to growth and being open to learning, and sometimes that journey will change what we believe. But yeah, my husband and I kind of joke all the time, like, when we see things happen in our country, you know, with either Christian nationalism or someone's just saying something, and we're just like, just making us look bad. Like and like, sometimes we deserve it, but like, other times it's for sure. I'm so embarrassed by the way a lot of Christians act. This would not be I would love to pretend to associate with someone else. Oh, my God, hard, same. But yeah, I mean, I think belief is interesting, and I'm glad that you wrote the meditation book you did, because I think for me also, like, because I went through drug addiction at such a young age. And like, when we talk about, sort of the part of Christian theology that talks about, like, original sin, or like you're born bad, or you're born broken, and God, you know, just deigns to come down and talk to you, even though you're, you know, the best thing you can do is worth filthy rags. What I find kind of interesting about that theology is that either feels incredibly oppressive and hateful and. Shameful, or it feels very, very comforting, and it depends on kind of like, how you view yourself, or like, what like. Because for me, even though I can recognize and I have lots of friends that like, Hey, I was grown I was grew up being told you're bad, you're wrong at your core and hearing just like how that really screwed with them. And I don't believe that's the right way to talk about God to anybody, especially children, but it was interesting the difference that I had with that same similar idea, because, like, by the time I washed up in rehab at 16, I already believed that I was bad, wrong and broken and rotten to my core, and had done things that could never be forgivable. And so, like the idea that there would be a god that already knew that was sort of like, Wait, you mean you already know that I'm screwed up, because I know that you I cannot be talked out of that, right? But you know that, and I'm still not unacceptable to you, was a very comforting thing for me at that time, and this feeling of, you know, I could possibly be loved into being something different than I am right now, not because I'm not worthy of love right now, but because I don't want to live this way anymore. And I just think that when, like, if I'd have seen a meditation book that said God didn't make us to hate us, it would have been the first one I picked up. Did that was that, like, talk to me a minute about that, because I feel like that's often like the sticking point for a lot of people that grew up in an environment that was influenced by Christianity. What is that sort of like? Am I bad to begin with, or at my core? And you know what was, what was going through your mind when you decided to write a meditation book that would number one, like, obviously, you want to be you want to honor, like theology and biblical texts and things like that. But at the same time, I think you're someone who understands, like, where people are when they kind of come to this sort of book.
Rev. Lizzie 12:15
My god, thank you for all of that. Casey, wow. So the process that came the process by which this book came out of me, which it really was a, like a divine eruption. You know what? I mean, like I had, I, in many ways, I'd like, very strategically, for a long time, I wanted to write a book. I mean, I've wanted to write a sort of more popular minded theology book, like, since I was an undergraduate studying religion, because, because I was so sick of all the crappy theology that was out there, and I wanted something that I could hand to my peers and also something that I could read myself. So it's something I'd wanted for a while. But when I started making content on Tiktok in 2020 I, like very self consciously, came on there as at the time, I was a deacon, and then I became a priest, which is its own sort of internal Episcopal thing. But I came on there as a minister, as clerk, a minister, as clergy, and I had some really clear values that I had for myself that were going to be my guiding principles for how I made content and how I responded, because I knew I was going to get trolled like I like. I just knew. And one of my deepest values in my life as like a mom, as a person, as a Christian, as a spouse, but also one of my deepest values as a leader is joy. And drawing from Nehemiah, the joy of the Lord is my strength. And I knew that because I had seen such crappy, what I call billboard theology in the book, right like anywhere in America, New York City or rural South Carolina, there are horrendous billboards that say, basically, if you died tonight, where would you go? Or the really horrific anti abortion billboards that are just like, so cruel in their tone and their intent. And so I had seen all of this, like, really, really vitriolic Christian messaging, but I also had seen how, like, candidly, a lot of progressive Christians, one, weren't great at, like, explaining why we believed what we believed. And two, were just not joyful spaces, right? And if end of where we are striving for is not a part of the means by which we get there, like, what is the point, my friends? And so if we are not living into joy as resistance, if we are not living into generosity and grace and compassion with one another. I'm not saying that there's no accountability. I'm not saying that we don't have like, call outs and call ins, but what I am saying is like, you can't come in with that energy being the first thing, right? Because that's also not how Jesus comes in to speak with us. And so I knew that going into making content, but then I was even knowing all of these things, even having been, you know, a queer Christian woman in the world, I was so sad at how many comments I got saying, I can't believe this. I always thought God hated me. Or, you know, I'm not religious anymore, but I feel safe with you. Or. Which the implication in that is that I never felt safe, I never felt safe, I never felt wanted, I never felt secure. And so as I started, you know, I was first approached by a publishing house to write this book, and I had just had a baby, and I was like, No, thank you, but please come back. Please come back when I'm like, you know, not postpartum and depressed and trying to plant a church. So I had some time to think about it. And I actually went through, and I know you, of all people, will appreciate, like, how involved this is. I went through every single comment I had ever received, I mean, and I took months doing this, and I started to catalog them. Of like, what are the top questions I'm being asked? What are the questions that I see that I'm like, I would really love to answer that, but video form is just not like it's gonna get some of the way there, but, but this is that's a question that you need to pray about, that you need to you need some space within yourself. So how can I offer something that's a bit more long form, that's also not on this, like addictive social media screen, like something, you know, a book. So I went through every comment, every question, and I categorized them, and like, the theme that I just kept getting back to over and over and over is, I'm like, I feel like all bad theology is rooted in this idea that God made us to hate us, that God is vindictive, God is cruel, God is small, I mean. And that is also the root of thinking like God is some white dude in the sky. That is the root of thinking that God punishes us. That is the root of homophobia, of transphobia, of racism, of misogyny, of not caring about the climate, right? Like all of this is rooted in this idea that like God just has this barely contained wrath for us, right? And you were saying like the best we can do is not worth a filthy rag. And I was like that, frankly, is not what Scripture says. You know, there are plenty of times that God is like, girl, get it together. I mean, there are plenty of times, right, where there is this, you know, I think about that great hymn, how Firm a Foundation where it's like, when, through fiery trials, I cause thee to go, I only designed thy dross to consume and the gold to refine. Dross is like an old fashioned word for rubbish. And I think about the passage that's in a lot of the Gospels, but where, usually it's attributed to John the Baptist, saying, you know, Jesus is coming and His winnowing fork is in His hand and he's going to separate the wheat from the chaff. Well, I didn't grow up on a farm, so I had to look up what that means. Chaff is a husk. It's a peel, right? So it's the, you know, it's something that protected the seed, the germ, the wheat, so it could grow. But then it has to come away. There has to be this, like, almost forcible peeling, a way of this hard armor that protected us for a time, right? There are absolutely dimensions and aspects of God reaching into our life and pulling away some things that are we are reticent to let go of, but God does that. I mean, as you said, out of love. It's not out of this, like vindictive boredom. Yeah,
KC Davis 17:55
yeah. I, you know, it's interesting when I sort of came to faith through rehab. And I actually didn't become a Christian until a couple years after. I believed that there was a God. There was like, a first step, like, okay, there's a God. And but part of that, I read everything. I read a bunch of Buddhist texts. I read some sort of, like, sciencey, sort of physicsy stuff. I read some Taoism. I read some Bible, and the parts in the Bible that drew me were the parts where I would watch or read Jesus interacting with women, like I just really I would read those parts over and over and over. And, you know, one of my favorite verses is talking about, like, what a prophet of the Lord will be like, and it says, a smoldering wick he will not quench, and A bruised reed he will not break. And I was like, Who are we talking about? This isn't like any religious person like, what are we reading the same text here? But that gentleness, I think, is what sort of rooted me in a faith in God and sort of feeling as though I was meeting a very gentle God. And so it wasn't until, you know what, I had some friends that invited me to a church a few years later, and the pastor was preaching through the book of Hosea, and this idea of, like God wooing you, like gently and kindly and with comfort and patience. And it wasn't so much like, Okay, I believe in God, but actually now I think this is the real God. It was like, Wait a second, I think you're talking about who I met on that bench when I thought I was gonna die. You know what I mean? And but it was very much that same kind of like beckoning, sort of like theme about, like, God being gentle with people who are broken, and because I already felt so broken, that was something that I sort of like moved towards, and it was something that I didn't get as much of in, like other texts that I was reading, which I just, I can't help but think that you're like. Your book would have been right there with it. And there was another question I had for you, and now it is flown out of my head. Oh, I know what it was when you were talking about, like, categorizing all of your comments, I was like, the song of my people, like, because when I wrote how to keep house while drowning, and then with this upcoming book, who deserves your love, which is about relationships, like, my books are always written to objections like, that's like, the benefit of being on Tiktok. It's like, you get so much real time feedback about like, what people's objections are to the things that you say, and what their follow up questions are and what they're not understanding. That when I sit down to write books, I like, I just find like, especially when I work with my editors, like, I'm different than other authors, because the book is written and where it's like, here's the concept. Now I know you're thinking this, so here's what I'm saying. Now I know you're thinking this, but here's what I'm saying. Now I know where you're gonna go from here, and here's what I say to that. And sometimes it looks like a little too much, you know, doth protest, too much, almost. And it's like, no, because I know, like, where so many people's minds are going to go, Okay, well, what about this? I'm trying to apply this, right? So when you said that, I was like, Oh my gosh, it's like a universal experience. I think, like spending so much time on Tiktok and getting used to having not just one way conversations like, I think if you're used to making more long term, long form content, you don't get that much, like, real time feedback interaction, yes, yes,
Rev. Lizzie 21:24
the feedback loop is just, it's such a grace. And, like, I say to people like this. I mean, the book is dedicated first to my husband and then to all the beloved babies of God who asked, who trusted me enough to ask these questions? Because I really cherish that trust, right? Like, I like, there are so many people who have, I mean, I hear horror stories. I mean, truly horror stories of what people have experienced in faith spaces and religious spaces. And believe me, I have my own church trauma, some of which I talk about in the book, some of which I never will, but I hear things that like, I mean, they just take me out, you know. And I thought I've heard it all, because that's my whole job, is to hear it all. And yet they still ask. And it is, it's such a, you know, insiders in theology world will look at this book and see, oh, she's doing a systematic theology, because I have four sections, and each section is, I structure it to be a myth and then a mystery, and so which I try to move from, like myth fact. Because, yes, there are facts I believe about God, right? And they're facts that we can know about scripture. But I think a deeper invitation to a liberated faith, the sort of faith that comes during and after deconstruction, so to speak, is actually embracing the discomfort of living with mystery and embracing that God is a divine mystery, and that a life of faith is not getting more and more answers. It's not like we accrue more answers. It's that we fall more in love and more into what I call vis a vis Sarah Cokely, the dazzling darkness. But like the core structures, the four parts of my book are. The first one is reimagining God, redeeming the Bible, liberating Jesus and the great hereafter, and so literally, I'm like, All right, let's start with like, Okay, we think God is a literal dude. The thing that horrifies me to no end is how, when I make content saying, hey, guess what? God's not a man. The number of people who are like, Yes, he is. He's a father. And I'm like, Oh, Jesus Christ, that's like, literally, the most conservative seminaries in America will tell you that God is not a literal dude. Yeah, my guy
KC Davis 23:19
can confirm, can confirm, genderless, genderless.
Rev. Lizzie 23:24
So let's start there, right? Okay, and we're gonna start. We're gonna start. And that's, like, the huge sum of it all, okay, but now that we've gotten, like, really mysterious, and we're like, Oh, my God, God is triune in a divine mystery, and like, let's, like, start to get into the Bible, and let's start in Genesis. And I literally do go through, like, obviously, not the entirety of the Bible. That's not possible with 40 devotions, but, but sort of the whole scope of it, with starting with the Old Testament, then moving into the New Testament with Jesus and the great hereafter being the heaven be hell, debate. So it is, it's I so agree with you that, like that live feedback loop is, like, really helpful. And I hope our readers know it's like, we really do write this for you. Like, I wrote it for my own health. I mean, I did, but, but, but I also wrote it for y'all. I
KC Davis 24:09
love what you said about mystery, because there's a lot of times where people will ask, like, you know, the hard questions about, like, Okay, if you believe X, then like, what do you do about y? And like, I there's a couple of ways to answer that. Like, one I can answer, like, according to who I know the character of God to be like that part, to me, is not, like, super mysterious, because I think that's like, the most clear part is that, like, the Bible is a story about God's character, and everything you need to know about God's character you can find there. But when people want a more specific, almost like philosophical resolution to something like, my favorite answer is always like, that's above my pay grade. Like, no, I don't know. I'm with you. That doesn't make sense to me. Well, why? Why would Paul say that to me? Like, I don't know. Man, hope to ask him one day. Seems weird to me, too. Yeah. Seems like a dick to me. But listen, I don't know. I'll ask one day, but that is above my pay grade. I don't know. I don't know why that's there. That just doesn't seem I'm with you. Yeah, I, you know, run my life according to who I know God to be, and try to be like him and but I just think that's funny, just that idea of like, it really like, it's a mystery. I don't know. Here's my next question, what we're talking about your book, and how I think your book is going to be foundational for people. I'm curious, what were your foundational books for
Rev. Lizzie 25:25
writing the book, or along my faith journey, just along your faith
KC Davis 25:29
journey, like books that kind of cracked it open for you at various stages of your faith? Yeah,
Rev. Lizzie 25:33
thank you for asking. What a great question. So the first one that comes to mind, which was kind of the first book I read, and I said, Oh, I want to write a book like this one day. That's mine, but has this energy, this esprit was past tricks by Nadia bulls Weber, the cranky faith of a sinner and a saint, I think, is the subtitle. So Nadia Bolz Weber is, she's a Lutheran pastor. She's like, super covered in tattoos and really cool, also sober, and she kind of got her start, I think, actually writing for working preacher, which is, like, preachers, like, we have lots of resources that we turn to when we're, like, trying to write sermons that sort of help, you know, guide the way. And so she was a regular writer on this blog that's like, well, this is the Text this Week. So you could go in this direction, you could go in that direction. And then she kind of grew her platform from there, at least. That's how I was first introduced her, because my mom read her column when preparing for her sermons every week. And so my mom had always been like, I really think you're gonna like her book. I really think you're gonna like her book. And being a teenager and a pastor's kid, I was like, No. And then I got to college, and I was like, I'm not gonna go to church anymore. And then that lasted for a few weeks. And that's how I kind of found my way into an Episcopal Church because it was the church I could walk to. And then I found my way into being a religion major. And I tell a little bit of that story in this book, but her book, pastrix, is like, I've only, I think, ever gotten one pastrix comment, and I screenshotted it, and I almost framed it, because I'm like, Ah, I've made it. They say a lot of other nasty things on the internet streets these days, but it's sort of this, like, Oh, you're not a pastor. You're a pastorx, you're a lady temptress and you're faking it and you're not real, remember? So she got a lot of that nonsense. Still does. And so she wrote this book that was a memoir of her journey of faith. And, I mean, she, like, swears all the time. She tells her story of addiction. She talks about being queer. I mean, like, it's just, it's a beautiful, really authentic portrait of life that is also a beautiful love letter to God. And reading it, even though I myself am not sober, I her energy and like her as she says, her like cranky misanthropy, even though probably am not a cranky misanthropist, but like reading, it was the first time that I read a theology book that didn't feel like polished, or like, like pretty, like she was a preacher who, she was a preacher, a priest, who was not presenting herself as polished. And I had read a lot of really amazing kind of, like, raw academic theology that was more willing to wrestle with God, with the nature of God, with questions about Bible and and misogyny and racism, etc. But she was the first person who I saw doing that, as someone who was clearly of the institution, meaning of the church. And so it's kind of wild to me that, like she was a church planter. She planted a church called the house for all sinners and saints in Denver, Colorado. And I read that book in college, and I was like, I want to go be an academic, and I want to study theology. And that is what I started out doing, and then I God had other plans for me, and I pivoted because God called me to be a priest, and then God called me to be a church planter, which is not something that I ever, ever thought like the acts 29 bros in Divinity School, not my crowd. Oh my gosh,
KC Davis 28:36
I went to school with so many acts 29 guys.
Rev. Lizzie 28:41
Yeah. No, Barbie priest was not hanging out with him, but, but it's funny how, like there's so many parallels in our lives that, like She's just someone I really admire. So that book was was huge. Some other books that I think have really shaped me and also are in this devotional has more footnotes than I think any devotional ever but this book, you can see it's like so tab, no future without forgiveness, by Desmond Tutu, is probably the book that I would say has shaped me the most, which I also read in college. And then a really spicy book called Beyond God the Father, by Mary Daly, very spicy lesbian separatist who, like carried a battle ax to her classes. She lectured at a Catholic College in Boston. I love that
KC Davis 29:29
you said spicy, because I'm sure you mean feisty, but I'm on book talk, so I was like, Damn Lizzy, okay. I was like, Oh, that's not she doesn't mean that kind of spicy. Well,
Rev. Lizzie 29:40
there is indecent theology by Marcella ituza Read, which is another great book. And is that spicy? But also theologically, yes, and we stand romance novels. We do. Actually, I quote Elisa clay pinoble in my book. It's like an I don't even like, it's just, it's just there, and it's like, well, now y'all know, now you. Know, my little easter egg. And then a couple other books I have, laughing at the devil, seeing the world with Julian of Norwich by Amy Laura Hall. This is, I recommend this book all the time. Julian of Norwich is my favorite saint, and she lived during a plague, AKA a pandemic, you know, the Black Plague. But still, I think influential. And then books, probably the most influential book that I read in high school was The Color Purple by Alice Walker and womanist theological work. So everything by like Dolores Williams and Jacqueline grant and ebony Marshall Terman Coleman, like all of these scholars, have really, really, really shaped me and, and I guess I'll say lastly, Sarah Coakley is, she's like, a very proper British scholar who does, like, really, really, like, I was gonna say spicy, but now I'm like, feisty.
Unknown Speaker 30:49
Let's go feisty,
Rev. Lizzie 30:51
feisty, feisty theology. But she's part of why I use the term father. I go by Father Lizzie, because she has this great chapter in her book called God sexuality in the self, about how can. The question she poses is, can a feminist call God Father? And the ultimate conclusion, she says is, like she does, lots of sort of problem ties and wandering through the weeds of that, but she's ultimately says yes, because feminism is going to help us understand the complexity of a gender full image of father. Feminism is going to help us dismantle misogynistic, human, hewn images of toxic masculinity that we project onto God and and ultimately, it's like kind of a feminist job to call God Father. Not saying that like you can't call God other things, but reading that chapter for me when I was in Divinity School was like, Oh, see,
KC Davis 31:40
that's spicy. Spicy would be, can we call God daddy? And I don't think that's what you mean. Also walked right into that one. I know I was so excited your your influential books are? You are so cultured. I'm suddenly overly aware that my influential books were both written by white men. But listen, that's where I was at the time. Yeah, mine are. So I read blue like, jazz, oh, it's a great book in college, which I don't know if it would be one of my like, I don't think it would be like, an influential book to me now, but for where I was at the time, it was kind of life changing. And then I read CS Lewis books. So I read Mere Christianity and the great divorce and screw
Rev. Lizzie 32:23
tape letters. Screw tape letters so good, if someone's
KC Davis 32:28
listening, they don't know what screw tape letters are. C S Lewis, who wrote Narnia, wrote this book. That is. The entire book is just letters between a demon and his like, demon mentor and the like, the demon is assigned to this one guy he's supposed to corrupt. And he's like writing back and forth the demon mentor. And the demon mentor has like advice on how to corrupt this person. And the reason it was so good is because it was sort of like the most intelligent sort of treaties on, like, what evil really is, like, it wasn't this, like, black and white that I'd heard from church all my life. Of like, this is doing bad and this is doing good. And, like, you know, there was entire, you know, there's a whole few letters where the little demon is, like, I'm so discouraged because he's decided to go to church. And the like demon mentors, like, No, this is good. This is good. You could use this. You can make him so evil this way, if you do it like ABC, and you make him think he's better than people and it and so it was just like a very it was more complex than I'd ever thought about things before. So anyways, those were mine. But wait,
Rev. Lizzie 33:35
Casey, I just want to pause and say, those are great books, and this is partly why I've written a devotional. Because all the books that I talked about with, like, one, maybe two exceptions, are, like, very, very academic, and they're brilliant, and I read them in either college or grad school. And so part of why I'm trying to interrupt the devotional market is because most of what is out there for people to just pick up and read when they're in the moment of faith crisis is, I mean, CS, Lewis, blue like that. Also, they're great books, but, but there's plenty of others on the shelves of Barnes and Noble that I'm like, Oh God, you know. And I don't see a lot of my like, you know, feminist theology, 500 level seminar books out there, for some good reasons, right? And so I'm trying, you know, understanding my social location, I cannot speak for all people. And there's a reason that this book is fat with footnotes, because I'm like, I'm just trying to interrupt these shelves with something that's like, actually, there's, like, a whole there's a whole lot more out there. And there's a whole lot of people who've been talking about Jesus for a long time in ways that are not, you know, white supremacist Christian nationalism,
KC Davis 34:41
well. And so circling back to, like, what we sort of started talking about, what, which is like when people online will often kind of be like, Okay, I like you and I like what you're saying, but like, how can you continue to be aligned with a faith that admittedly has done ABC did it, and you had talked about, like, loving the church. The people in it, and being, you know, honoring of people's face. And I think that, like in all of that, is probably the reason why, like, my favorite parable was, like the pair, I don't know what they call it now, but the one about the field, where Jesus says, like a man comes across a treasure buried in a field, and he covers it back up, and he goes and he buys the field. And I never understood that until I was like in my late 20s, and it's become my favorite parable, because the whole point is that he finds this treasure in this field. And the idea is like the field is barren, it is worthless, and he covers it back. He covers that treasure, back up and goes and does he sell everything he has to think so, yeah, sells everything he has to buy this worthless feel and people think he's crazy. Sells everything he owns to buy this, like barren plot of land that is completely worthless. And I just sort of started to resonate with this idea that, like people who knew me and people who kind of watched me come to faith, that there was this thing of, like, I can't believe you have sold out so hard for such a worthless concept, for such a problematic religion, for such a deeply disturbingly problematic history, and people involved in it that, you know, I know that you don't agree with, but how could you associate like, that kind of thing? And I was like, I mean, the only way to describe it is, like, it's the Baron because, like, it's the barren field, like it's the worthless field that you're right, like, nobody would want to buy, but I know that inside of it is a treasure, like, there is something real buried there, and that's why that's always been my favorite
Rev. Lizzie 36:42
parable. Well, Dan Casey, when are you gonna write your theology book? Listen, maybe
KC Davis 36:47
that'll be my next one.
Unknown Speaker 36:50
I'm here for that. Well,
KC Davis 36:52
Lizzie, thank you so much for taking the time and tell us one more time, name of your book and where everybody can find it, and then where they can find you on social media, if they want to follow along.
Rev. Lizzie 37:01
You want me to read a little excerpt from it, please? Okay, so I am rev Lizzy everywhere. I'm even on blue sky. Now I deleted Twitter in 2015 because I was too overwhelmed. But like with everything on the social internet being what it is, now, just look for me at revlizzi, or revlizzi.com and the book is called, God didn't make us to hate us. 40 devotions to liberate your faith from fear. And it's out February 18. Everywhere, anywhere you buy books, and there is an audio book, and I did record it, and like not to pull too much of a plug for it, but I loved recording that book. And you know, a lot of these chapters were in one form or another, a sermon at one point. So I do think the audiobook is, like, maybe my favorite way for folks to experience it, but I'm going to read a little section. Chapter Two, we were born homesick. If all goes well, she should be screaming. I can't remember if it was a midwife or a birthing book or a friend who said that, but I knew when my daughter was born, if all was well, she would be screaming, throat raw, howling when they lowered the surgical drape for me to see them extract her from my exhausted womb via cesarean section, I felt cleaved in two. Love split me open as they took my heart from my gut, but then I was in and out of focus, and the nurse was stroking my hair, and my husband was over by the doctors, all because my baby was quiet, too quiet and purple. And then mercifully, she began to scream. I have never been so grateful for the sounds of agony in my life when we are born, if all goes well, we should be screaming. The only thing a baby has ever known is the dark safety of a womb, and now they are catapulted into the brutal light of the world. Maybe this is why so many people have said we are born in sin. Birth is terrifying, and we tend to label scary things or things we don't understand as sin, or maybe it's because birth is so connected with women and sexuality, despite the fact that birthing people's bodies are life cradling wonders, our society is so uncomfortable with the realities of the reproductive process that we've created a variety of awful names to call women who engage in it in ways we don't approve of. We associate birth with sinful femininity so strongly that we think of birthing pains as part of Eve's punishment. This is a wayward definition of sin. Sin is not as my colleague, Reverend Kelly Joyce puts it fun, stuff you're not allowed to do, and especially with your body, especially if your body is not the kind of body the church wants it to be. This is what I think most people mean when they say sin. But over and over, the Bible shows us that sin is more fundamental than fun stuff you're not allowed to do. Sin is anything that separates us from God and from one another. Sin is the nothing in the face of God's abundance, and I certainly felt the encroaching nothing the body. Less fear of what if on that operating table. But sometimes, I think we use the word sin when what we really mean is death, and by death we mean the inescapable reality of our humanity, of our limits. We are merely human, and only God is God, and sin and death are connected in the Christian tradition, but they are not the same. In that moment when my baby was too quiet, I knew death was threatening, all that was good and right and holy in that space, but was my baby being born in sin, or was I reckoning with my humanity now that she was not a part of my body? My friend Suz long offers this alternative. We were not born in sin, we were born homesick. It's the opening line of the song, born homesick from her band, hard workers, EP, the awful rowing. My baby was not born in sin. She was born homesick when I finally got to hold her hours later and put her to my breast, where she knew how to eat, despite never having used her mouth to eat before. We were not quite one flesh again, but we were not lonely for each other, strangers, but blood kin, bound, Soul tied, and I will never feed her to eternal fullness like God will. But in some ways, her homesickness was sated. My love for her is from God, but only God loves perfectly, and my job is to receive that perfect love and do my best to live in that love, extend that love, give that love, knowing I will never love as God does. This is what I hear in the phrase, we were born, homesick, we are born and remain Lizzie, that was
KC Davis 41:42
beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm so glad that you recorded the audiobook, because your voice is lovely. Oh, thank you like you say it exactly the way it should be said. So oh my goodness. Okay. Well, you guys go out, get this book, follow Reverend Lizzie and just be well. And I hope you guys have a great day. Thank you, thanks. KC, you.