123: Are You an Introvert or is it Social Anxiety? with Natasha Daniels
Social anxiety is an interesting topic. Natasha Daniels is a social anxiety therapist and mom who joined us recently to discuss OCD and kids; today, we are exploring another form of anxiety as Natasha helps us understand social anxiety. She wrote a memoir, Out of My Shell, detailing her personal experience.
Show Highlights:
Natasha’s background, personal experience, and book about social anxiety
The neuro-divergent affirming movement
The difference between social anxiety and introversion
Do we ALL have some degree of social anxiety?
Thoughts on “bed rot,” social anxiety, and what’s “normal”
Social anxiety as a defense mechanism
The isolation that comes with social anxiety
OCD, social anxiety, and autism—a common connection?
“A paralyzing fear of others’ perceptions and a preoccupation with managing those perceptions”
The difference between a defense mechanism and a personality trait
An overview of Natasha’s experience with social anxiety and why she wrote her book
Social anxiety is NOT a self-esteem issue.
Outsmarting the negative critic in your head
Dr. Kristin Neff’s concept of “fierce self-compassion,” which is “a feistiness of advocacy”
Resources and Links:
Future Fans:Helping little kids become BIG fans
Connect with Natasha Daniels: Website (and book) and Instagram
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC Davis 0:00
Music. Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and today we're going to talk about social anxiety. I actually have Natasha Daniels back in the studio with us. Last time Natasha was here, we were talking about OCD in kids. And now we're going to talk about a different kind of anxiety, which is social anxiety. Natasha, thank you for coming back. Oh,
Natasha Daniels 0:23
thanks for having me again. I appreciate it.
KC Davis 0:25
So Okay, the last episode about OCD, you kind of talked to us about what you know about OCD, but talk to us a little bit about kind of who you are and how that relates to social anxiety. And I understand you actually wrote a book as well on this topic.
Natasha Daniels 0:39
I did. I wrote a memoir. So I am an anxiety and OCD child therapist, and I'm also the mom to three kids with anxiety and OCD, and all three have social anxiety, and I also have struggled with just generalized anxiety disorder and predominantly social anxiety. And so yeah, I get social anxiety on a very deep, personal and clinical level.
KC Davis 0:59
So what is the name of your book?
Natasha Daniels 1:01
It's out of my shell, overcoming social anxiety from childhood to adulthood. I gotta think about that for a second.
KC Davis 1:07
So here's one of the things that I'm really excited to listen to this because I am firmly situated in sort of like the neuro divergent affirming movement, where we are trying to just like, normalize that people have different neurotypes, they have different personalities, they have different ways of socially interacting, and also trying to kind of normalize like that a good portion that is going to be disabling for the rest of our lives, you know, and that there might be accommodations we need for the rest of our lives. And there's kind of this long history, especially when it comes to autism, and somewhat with ADHD, where all the therapies around autism and ADHD were really focused on just making those kids act more, quote, unquote, normal, right? So making autistic kids make eye contact, making ADHD kids, you know, stop interrupting because and so a lot of us carry a lot of this shame from childhood, and are now really being empowered with this idea of like, Oh, I'm not wrong. I'm not bad. This is just the way that my brain works. And I think that there that that movement is really important and really good. And one of the things that I like as a therapist, and just my personal and professional experience, like, have begun to think about is kind of this, I wouldn't say, like guardrail, but it's kind of like this parallel truth that I think is really important to have in this movement, where there are things about our brains and our bodies working differently, that there's nothing wrong with them, and maybe They don't need to be fixed. And I think sometimes we need to remember that there are also disorders that are inherently debilitating, and are things that can and we should be seeking to overcome, that we can live differently that they aren't or don't have to be a part of our core personality or identity or experience, and that's why I really find your experience with social anxiety really captivating and important. Because, you know, and I want to kind of start here with like, the difference between introversion and social anxiety, because there's nothing wrong with being an introvert. There's nothing there to fix. But I'm wondering how many people maybe actually have social anxiety that just think they're an introvert and they're maybe missing an opportunity to grow in a direction that would make their life more fulfilling, happier, more meaningful?
Natasha Daniels 3:38
Yeah, and I love that question, because I really feel like that has been a big part of my journey, which has been, how do I love and accept the introvert part of me and get the social anxiety much, much smaller and how they are separated? Because I think that one is to accept who you are, and that was part of my journey, because I think social anxiety is really good at getting you to give yourself a narrative that's not true, you know, to make you feel like it's not a disorder. It's just that people don't like you, or that you repel people, or that you're just an introvert. And really social anxiety is the fear of rejection criticism, the feeling that you are going to embarrass yourself or be found out, or that you're not enough. I mean, I think that's the core fear under social anxiety for most people, is I'm not enough in some category, and I get my value by you validating me. And so there's this panic, if I'm not validated externally in some way, then I'm not good enough. And that's different than being an introvert. I mean, you can be an extrovert and have social anxiety. I've got one of those at my house, and she, I mean, she wore a banana suit to a Hawaiian dance. I was like, I think you got the wrong she's like, No, I want to be different, like she was, I'm sure she was the only banana dancing in the Hawaiian dance party. But it's not about being an introvert extrovert. I mean, a lot of people with social anxiety are introverted. Sometimes. Maybe not organically. Maybe it happens that way. And some people are shy, but some people aren't shy, and some people have social skills and some people don't. It's not a lack of social skills, per se, it's just that fear of judgment and criticism that dominates it, and it's, it is debilitating, and it, it does squash your ability to live a full life. And it, it can be worked on.
KC Davis 5:20
So, you know, when you talk about the root of it, I mean, I remember feeling that as a teenager, like really needing people's validation, really being afraid of rejection. And I think that's a normal sort of developmental space. But at the same time, I wouldn't describe, like, my behaviors or fears around that as social anxiety, because, like, although I was afraid of being judged, I don't know if I just like, I felt like I knew how not to be, if that makes sense or like, I never, I didn't have like. I was always out. I always wanted to be with people. I always, I guess in my head, it was like, I'm good at getting people's validation. So yes, I'm still afraid of not having it, but I don't have any anxiety about my ability to gain it. You know what? I mean, it's almost like kind of tending towards narcissism, almost,
Natasha Daniels 6:07
yeah, and I think it is developmentally appropriate, especially middle school and high school, you know, your tween and your teen years, to feel like you're living in a fish bowl and to feel, you know, that real. I mean, it's developmentally appropriate, like, I want my peers to love and support me. I want to people have people like me. And I think it's also a human condition. I think with social anxiety is the acuity, it's the level of debilitation that goes with it. And most people's social anxiety don't have that tenacity to say, I'm good at it. I think it's the opposite. It's like, I'm bad at it, and I should avoid it.
KC Davis 6:40
So is that really, I mean, you said in the podcast about OCD that avoidance is the fuel of anxiety. Is that the difference between like, maybe what makes because you could have a lot of people that have that fear of rejection or that needing of validity, and you know, some people that might express, as, you know, I'm, you know, almost narcissistic. Some people, it might just be I'm really clingy, or I'm really needy, or I'm kind of a pick me, or I'm real insecure, or I'm real manipulative to people, because I really need everyone to like me. Is what distinguishes the social anxiety, the avoidance aspect of it, that that fear kind of causes an avoidance.
Natasha Daniels 7:17
I think that's one component for sure. I mean, I think avoidance fuels all anxiety disorders, and so do I avoid my, you know, avoid putting myself in situations that are going to be uncomfortable? Do I avoid talking to people, you know? So, yes, avoidance is a component of it. I think there's other elements too. There's checking in a non OCD way, like, am I blushing, or am I sweating, or am I is my voice shaking, or, you know, Do I look okay? Or whatever your theme is, it does show up differently for each person. We all tend to hyper focus on specific things, and that's different for each person. But then also it's the ruminating. And so let's just, you know, analyze that conversation for the next 24 hours, and what I should have said, or what I could have said, or so there's a lot of ruminating that also happens, and then a lot of times, a lot of anxiety attacks. You know, you're in a situation that you couldn't avoid or that you had tried to do, and then it's that's not going well, because your inner critic is telling you, oh my gosh, this is really sucking right now, and then full blown panic. And so having those anxiety attacks is also sometimes a hallmark of it.
KC Davis 8:21
Yeah, and I wonder, you know, I think one of the things, there's a few disorders that are some like this in that one of the things that I think makes social anxiety a little bit difficult to I talk about in the abstract, like, it's probably not hard as a clinician to identify when you see it, but it's hard to talk about in the abstract because, like, to a certain degree, all of these behaviors are just like typical behaviors. And we all have had a conversation where we're kicking ourselves going, Oh, I must have looked so stupid. I can't stop thinking about it. You know, we all have situations where, you know, maybe you're sweating and you're thinking, oh, gosh, I got probably an armpit water left. And so, you know, it is part of this, the frequency of those things. Because, I mean, I have interactions where I can't stop thinking about for days because it was, you know, I did or said something stupid. But I also think that, like in those situations, I have, in fact, done or said something stupid, you know what I mean, as opposed to, maybe there's not anything identifiably wrong at that moment, but then later, you know, you start second guessing, and you start, like, that kind of thing.
Natasha Daniels 9:25
Yeah, I think that's why a lot of people's social anxiety aren't diagnosed. Don't even recognize they have it, because it is, like this severity of it. It's the volume of it that creates the disorder. And I know even when I was talking to, like my brother about it, you know, and I was writing my memoir, he's and I was like, explaining stuff, and he's like, Well, don't we all have that? And actually, my uncle too, he was like, don't we all feel that way? And I felt really discounted. It's like, read my book, but when they did, it's interesting, because that was both of their reactions. And then when they read my book, they were like, Oh my gosh, I did. Realize you were suffering like that internally. And I have a friend who's really outgoing, and she's like, I didn't realize people think this way or struggle this way. And so I think it's in the detail of what's going on in our head and the severity of what we avoid, or how much we like ruminate and think about it, that becomes the disorder.
KC Davis 10:17
Yeah. And I think you know, as much as we even say, like, some of these are normal fears and feelings and things to do. You know, in adolescents, they're still even there. Like, you know, when you have a kid that is crying every morning before school because they're afraid that they, you know, won't be liked, or they like even then, like, you can see the outliers where it's like, okay, yes, a degree of that is normal. But here we have a kid that is, like, damn near not functioning. And it's not just the I'm afraid to get on stage for this presentation, or what if I don't have friends, though, the first couple of weeks, whatever, it's kind of like things beyond that at a different frequency and intensity and even like a benignness, even the benign ones are really heightened.
Natasha Daniels 11:02
Yeah, exactly. I mean, even when I think about my kids or my own childhood, it's like throwing up before going to school every day, like that was the norm. Or, you know, for my daughter, having to take, you know, medication to calm her before she goes to a birthday party, because otherwise she feels like she's gonna throw up or pass out, or my son even, like, we went to a pumpkin patch thing the other day, and he is in online school, and I was like, Oh, he needs to get out. And he has social anxiety, so that's definitely not helpful. And just the panic, and him just standing in the line, you know, I'm trying to dance a little bit, and he's like, stop it. Just stop it, you know? And I'm like, we're in the dark. No one can see me, and everyone's dancing like, why is this a problem? But that level of feeling like you're in the spotlight, and that level of panic is definitely more extreme than your your average kid. You
KC Davis 11:54
know, one of the things that I think is kind of funny that happens on social medias is there's kind of this, like normalizing, like, they call it like bed rotting. We feel like this. My favorite place is my bed. I just want to be in bed with my treats and a good show and binge watch TV. And the thing is, is like, I agree, like, I love a good bed rot day. Like, I've always been a person that, like, that's my day. That's my idea of like, a day off and but then, like, as a therapist, my mind always goes to, like, those bumper rails of like, we've got to have some bumper rails on this conversation, on this trend, on, on a kind of trending towards, like, normalizing, not always having to be out and doing things. Because I do think that it would be easy for someone with social anxiety to go, yeah. See, it's normal to always want to be in, to never want to be out, to not like anyone, to, you know, not and, and there is some pushback that I'm seeing, you know, in at least in the spaces that I exist, where people are like, hey, like, it's not normal to hate everyone, right? It's, it's not normal. Like, it's okay to be like, I'm not a people person, and then like, but like, that's different than like, I, you know, vehemently dislike participating in communal spaces because I don't like other people. You know what I mean, like, and I'm just curious, like, if you have any thoughts about that, about like, things that you know, maybe even that you personally kind of justified as well. This is just normal, or this is my personality, or it's okay, and that you later realized, like, Oh no, that was me being in distress. Yeah,
Natasha Daniels 13:25
it is really it feels better to just be like, I just don't like people. Or people suck. And, yeah, some of them really do. But I think there's a defense mechanism that happens with social anxiety that I definitely was part of in my teens. I was just like, Oh, I'm going to be anti establishment. I'm going to like, you know, I'm going to go goth, I'm going to go Nine Inch Nails. And there was like, liberation in that, because I was like, Okay, now I can, like, not like people, and be very overt about it, and I don't want to fit in. I don't want to be with you. And I really feel like, not only was that a phase, that was a defense mechanism, although, you know, I still like the music. And then as I got older, again, still not recognizing that I had social anxiety, I would always make excuses like, oh, well, I'm new here, you know, or this is a new thing, or maybe next time, I'll make friends. And then it was just like, I don't fit in with these people, like they're too wealthy, or they're too this, or they're too that. And I would always find a reason why I was excluded. And then I just doubled down, really, in my 30s and 40s, I was like, I just don't get along with people and so, and that's okay, I'm just gonna stay here and just be best friends with my husband. And that was unproductive, because that wasn't really the whole story. I mean, I was avoiding because I didn't know how to make connections, and I was afraid of rejection, and I felt like the minute I left my house, I was there's a spotlight on me, and so avoidance was just an easier way. I
KC Davis 14:43
remember when I was in rehab, they had me do this, like one exercise about, I can't remember what it was about, but it was during, like a family processing therapy session. And I read this thing where I talked about how every time I move. I don't see my body moving from my point of view, from like first person that, like, I see everything I do in third person. So I'm thinking, How did my body look as it moved in that way? And how did that sound as somebody heard it, and that even when I was alone, it was like being in The Truman Show, like, in my head, it was just kind of like, always a performance, and it was specifically related to, it wasn't related to like, I don't know how to act, or like, I don't get social cues. It was specifically related to the judgment of the people around me and making sure that I was liked, that I looked cool, or that I looked okay, or that I looked and that like that was like this preoccupation that, like, I couldn't do anything, everything I did and said I observed in third person. And that was kind of like my primary preoccupation was, how is this going to be taken? How is this going to be observed? How is this going to pass? Even if I was in public and no one was looking at me, it still mattered to me. And I remember thinking, like, Man, this is a really, like, broken part of me. This is like, a really disordered, maybe part of my addiction, part of me being, like, very different. And my sister, who's 12 years older than me, so she was, like, in her late 20s at the time, was like, Well, I remember feeling that when I was a teenager. And I remember that at the time, feeling a little confused, because I was like, Wait, am I not that unique? But then also being like, oh, that's kind of relieving, because she, like, didn't have addiction problems, but she was like, I mean, I remember feeling that as a teenager, and ever since then, that has really been kind of this really important memory, because it seems like at least from my understanding of, like, social anxiety from that aspect of it. It's like, and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong. It's kind of like a normal phase, but you don't ever grow out of it. Like, if you kind of get, like, stuck in that, I can only ever think in public, in this, like, 3d Truman Show, what am I looking whatever. And then that's causing this, like, almost like, it's debilitating to think that way, and so I can't really, I don't know what you think about that, but I just, I'm trying to thread that needle, even for myself, between, like, it would be normal to experience some of this stuff at like, certain phases of life or certain heightened experiences, but that, like, I did, kind of just pass through that, like, I don't, I don't. Now, in my, you know, 30s, experience the world that way, yeah,
Natasha Daniels 17:27
well, and I think, like, okay, during your tween and teen years, if we had, like, a radio dial, you know, it's at like a nine, you know, normally for, like, developmentally appropriate, you know, phase of life, and when you have social anxiety, it's at like a 20. And then as you get older, you know everyone else's dial goes down to maybe, like a five, and yours is still at a 20. And so because the level of intensity that I felt starting in eighth grade was still so above and beyond. I mean throwing up every day before going to school, and then not your typical just like, I feel like I'm on stage when I go into the cafeteria. You know, it was like It dominated. And then I started having anxiety attacks in eighth grade, because we had this one teacher who was lazy and would just make everybody read again. Nobody likes reading. It can be embarrassing to read in public, but for me, like I would get stuck on it. I would think about that one hour, and I would worry about it, and then I would have an anxiety attack reading. I would run out of breath, and I would start to panic that I was going to pass out, and then for the rest of the day and the night, I would like lament on, I have to go back. And, you know, everyone saw me. Everyone thinks I'm an idiot. Everyone heard me mispronounce a word, and so I think it's like that volume button is at a really dysfunctional level.
KC Davis 18:45
It also seems like when your description of it, what strikes me about that is you just seem very alone. And I think my experience of those kind of developmentally appropriate experiences of like self you know, what is like self consciousness? I didn't experience those as feeling alone, like they were still very much in the context of connections that I was feeling with other people, if that makes sense, like there wasn't like a love, there wasn't an anxiety or a worry or avoid there was definitely, like, maybe a preoccupation, or a little bit of like, I really care, or I'm a little afraid of this, but I think when I hear your experience, it makes me feel very much sad about how alone and kind of almost like disconnected from the reality of kind of what was going on around you. Yeah,
Natasha Daniels 19:32
and I think that is an earmark for social anxiety. Is this isolation and feeling like you are alone? And I think that's also why people don't recognize they have it is they think I'm the only one that has these thoughts. I'm the only one that worries about these things. I always felt like I was on the outside looking in in any area of my life, even in my family, I thought, you know, they don't like me that much. You know, they don't call me enough as an adult, my work environment once I became a mom. Oh my gosh, that just like, like, social anxiety to the power of two, because now my kids are embarrassing me, or people are judging me about my parenting. On top of that, I don't fit into my community. I don't fit into my work, and so it's and for some people, it's just one area. It might just be their work. They feel like, you know, they're not good enough, and they're worried they're gonna blush and they're worried they're gonna shake. And for me, it's ironically, the other way around. I feel pretty confident in work. If I'm wearing a professional hat, I can have a conversation all day, but throw me in a party where it's unscripted and, like, I have to actually, like, find out who I'm gonna talk to. I rather die. Like, that's a tent for me. And so it's different for each person with social anxiety. One
KC Davis 20:35
of the things that is standing out to me, you know, in contrast to the conversation we had about OCD is that, like, I could for sure see someone who is OCD and has social anxiety as getting diagnosed autistic, because they'd go, oh, you know you worry in social situations. You're uncomfortable in social situations. You know you miss social cues. But again, that's your like self report about thinking that you're missing social cues, or you don't get what's going on you always feel on the outside, and then you have these obsessions and compulsions that maybe get seem like restrictive and repetitive behavior. And I can also see the opposite, right? Like, maybe someone who is autistic just kind of going to a therapist that isn't familiar with autism and being like, Oh man, this looks like OCD and social anxiety, and it is making me think about because I have so many autistic people in my life like I think sometimes we hear a lot from people in the autism community that experience, that feeling, way they talk about they call it social deficits, which I'm not a huge fan of, the deficit language, but that's what it's referred to. A lot of times I'll hear people express that experience as this sort of like, I'm always worried that I'm not doing something right socially. I'm always overly concerned that, you know, I don't know when it's the right time to leave. And I'm always worried that, you know, what, if people don't like me here and I can't pick up on it. But I think sometimes, you know, there are just as many autistic people who experience their social symptoms as like, the opposite, if that makes sense, where it's like, I don't worry. I don't think about it. I don't, you know, there's this, for lack of a better term, kind of like, an obliviousness of like, this isn't something I worry about at all, and that's part of the symptomology. And I guess I'm just wondering, like, you know, it seems like it would be difficult as a parent to figure out what's going on, or even as a person, but it also strikes me like, how many autistic adults also have social anxiety, but because they are autistic, or because they have an autism diagnosis, maybe are thinking like, well, this is just a part of my autism. There's nothing that can be done about it. And are, like, really trying to, like, drum up some self acceptance for this part of them that maybe isn't so central to their identity as they have previously thought, like, maybe this is social anxiety, not saying you're not autistic, but maybe part of this is social anxiety that actually can be, you know, drastically minimized, and increase your experience of life like so I'm just curious your thoughts on that. Yeah,
Natasha Daniels 23:13
you know, I think sometimes there is an overlap. I think when you take social anxiety without the autistic element, a lot of times, what drives it is that you are too aware of people's cues. And so like, I can tell that someone's uncomfortable, like, a mile away, I could be in a room and I could be like, Why is that guy in the corner? Like, looking uncomfortable, and now I'm uncomfortable for him. Like, I can read subtle cues to the point where it's a deficit, because I can tell when someone's not interested in what I'm saying, and I think I'm accurate a lot of the time, because I'm so clued in, I'm like, hyper fixating on their eye contact. Where are they moving their eyes? How are they participating in this conversation? And so it adds to the narrative I'm picking up on things that I think the average person doesn't pick up on and so they can live in Oblivion, which I wish I could when you're dealing with an autistic person. They may or may not, they may struggle reading social cues or truly having like the reciprocity of the back and forthness. And so the skills might make them struggle. And then, though the social anxiety can add to it, like I need their approval, that that narrative underneath of I need them to like me. I'm not good enough if they don't accept me, that part can be worked on, where I can stumble on my words, or I can not fit in, and I can do these things anyway and be okay with them not liking me, and that there's room for growth in that area, no matter what,
KC Davis 24:45
yeah, it seems like I mean, or I can. Maybe this is a question like, is the core of social anxiety, kind of like a paralyzing fear of others perception, and that causes. Like a preoccupation with needing to manage that, which, in turn, often results in just an avoidance of social situations when at all possible.
Natasha Daniels 25:10
Yeah, I think it's a really good way to summarize it. Yeah, exactly. Okay, cool.
KC Davis 25:16
That's a helpful way to think of it, because I think that helps me distinguish, like, okay, although I relate to some things that I've heard people talk about in social anxiety, I don't relate to this core sort of like thing happening, if that makes sense, yeah, and I like what you said about basically, like, the difference between a defense mechanism and a personality trait, right? Like, we can be introverted, or we can prefer to have a quiet time by ourselves, and then that's different than social anxiety, which kind of is like a defense mechanism. So what are some of the things in your experience? And if I remember correctly, the book is like a memoir of your sort of like coming through social anxiety. So what were some of the key points for you, or maybe some of the key interventions that actually helped you? And I'm curious, like, What have you discovered about your personality that you didn't know before, because it was kind of being covered up by the social anxiety? Yeah,
Natasha Daniels 26:14
you know, I the book goes back and forth to, like, my childhood and then my present, and then in between, I'm doing actually therapy sessions with my younger self, and trying to get my younger selves to realize that it's social anxiety and not kind of the stories that I was telling myself. But I so I did start to develop like a hierarchy. It's like a first batch of working on my social anxiety. And then I revisit it back in my 40s. I'm not that old. I'm in my I'm like, 52 but because it's a good daily practice. But to speak on, like, introvert versus social anxiety, one of the things that I did as an exposure was I signed up for this conference. It was like, an entrepreneur conference or whatever, and I was like, we're gonna go alone in it's another state. And then I even, like, I kind of developed because I named my social anxiety para, because it makes me feel really paranoid. And so I kind of personified it as an element of myself that I didn't want that was this negative critic. And then there was this Natasha 2.0 who was like, this, like, annoying cheerleader, who was like, You got to go to this conference, and you got to, you know, sign up and go and and then she was like, you should get a roommate, you know, which really pushed me over the edge. And so let's get a stranger, you know, who's going to the conference. Going to the conference too. Because people were looking for roommates. The roommate was, I couldn't decide, and this is in the book. I was like, trying to figure out, like, do I want to diagnose her? Like, she's definitely quiet, you know, does she have social anxiety too? And so we had dinner, and she's like, you know, not talking, and she's distracted or whatever. And so I thought, Oh, I think she might have social anxiety as well. And then I meet this other girl randomly who just walks up to me, thank goodness, because I was like, overwhelmed, and she's outgoing, and she's an extrovert, and she, like, just takes me under her wing. And so the whole weekend, I'm like, learning I'm watching her, like, how she's talking to these strangers, and I see my roommate who was very like, not friendly and wasn't really engaged. She read a book at night, and I eventually, I was like, I think she's an introvert. Like, I wouldn't sit there and read a book. She doesn't seem to care. But I saw her when we were, you know, taking a lunch break, and there's a sea of people, and she's just sitting there on the grass reading. And I was like, that's a comfortable introvert. That's the difference, you know, I have social anxiety. I'm totally aware, and she is in the middle of the sea of people, and just wanting to recharge sitting there. And that eventually became my goal, like, I want to accept who I am. But the problem was, if I'm sitting in like, let's say I'm sitting in an auditorium with a sea of people, my social anxiety is like, oh my gosh, you're the biggest loser. People are staring at you, grab your phone, look busy. This is so awkward. Everybody else has friends. Look at them talking over there, and it will it's non stop. And I realized I don't want to be sitting with a group of people, but I want to be able to sit there and be like, I'm cool. This is fine. This is who I am. I'm not the life of the party, and so it's rectifying that, and that's what I learned about myself in the book, was, like, I am a solid introvert. I don't know if I would have been I wanted to be an actress when I was in fourth grade, and I was really loud, so I don't know if, like, the bullying in middle school, like, shut that down, but I know now, like, I'm a solid introvert, and my goal wasn't to have a large group of friends. My goal was, Can I sit in public, in groups and not feel like there's a spotlight.
KC Davis 29:24
You know, one of the things that strikes me, and I say this as a morally neutral term, but just as an observation, like, there's quite a bit of self absorption in social anxiety, of like, self preoccupation, and I wonder how much, how many people are trying to fix their social anxiety by treating it like a self esteem issue. Like, well, I just need to think better about myself. I need to like myself more. I need to like that kind of thing. But it seems like all you wanted to do was just. Think about yourself less, like, that's what you saw in the lady reading the book. It wasn't that she, like, liked herself more than you. She just, like, was able to sit in a place and not have to overthink how everyone in that place was thinking about her and, like, whether it was weird to be reading a book, or whether anyone was judging her reading a book, or something like that. And I mentioned that just because I feel like that's one of, like, I feel like my life lessons was that, like, there were so many issues that I tried to treat as I can solve this if I just like myself more. And then I realized, like, no actually, like, I can solve this by just like, learning how to think about myself less frequently. You know what I mean. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, I can just go whether it was like body issues or insecurities or any of those kind of things, because it seems like that's the freedom, not that you have to be socially suave, or that everyone has to like you, or that you have to like yourself, but just that you could exist in a public place without feeling like all eyes are on you, or having to like think In that kind of third person, yeah,
Natasha Daniels 31:02
I mean, I did feel like I for me, like I had to accept the reality that people may not like me and that I was okay with that. And for me, I did have to become as cliched as it sounds like. I had to become my own best friend and my own advocate, where it was like this, screw you. I don't care if you like me attitude. And once I got that, when I was like, I'm gonna put myself in situations. So one time, one of my exposures was, if I see that I'm doing something that's bothering other people, I'm gonna keep doing it. It was like, just this mental game I was playing with myself. And so I was in this gym in my community, and I was somebody was on this exercise machine that was squeaking, and it was squeaking, and it was super annoying. And we were all getting annoyed. I could tell everyone it was a very small gym and and I couldn't tell what exercise equipment was doing that. And so, like, 10 minutes later, I found it because I'm on it and it's like, er and squeaking. And I was like, No, you were gonna do 50 reps. You have to finish the 50 reps. And I was like, mortified, but I was doing it because I wanted to put myself in situations where it wasn't going to be a positive response. Like, can I put myself in situations where I might have a confrontation, or I might be annoying people, or people legitimately don't like me in that moment? And can I accept that? I think sometimes on the surface, we do social anxiety exposures, like, let's prove that people are going to be nice to you, or let's prove that you can get along with people, or that it's going to go well. And that was not my goal. My goal was like, Can I care less about what people think? And actually, ironically, care more about what I think? And so my self esteem did grow. I think the more I worked on my exposures, because I was, like, rooting for myself, but it
KC Davis 32:41
seems like that was the result, not the like. Because I think what you just said is kind of what I was, what I was trying to say, which is, like it wasn't, let's prove that I'm so likable and that I'm not that I that it's not true, that people aren't going to be annoyed with me. It almost seems like you approached it more like a distress tolerance exercise, rather than like a self love exercise. And when you learn the distress tolerance of, yeah, people might be judging me, or like, Oh, I'm not being liked right now, like that led to you having higher self esteem.
Natasha Daniels 33:17
It got smushy, yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's smooshy. I feel like I started to really, like, pay attention to the negative, like critic in my head. And then I started, like, I forced myself I did, like, a lot of mental exercises. I would force myself to not, like, negate what I was saying. Like, if I was like, Oh my gosh, like, you look like such an idiot, it would be like, what's another way to say that to myself? Or what it's something I do like about myself, and not in a very trivial way, but like, can we double down on liking your quirks, you know? And then somebody said, like, gave me a compliment, I always have to negate it. Like, if someone says, Oh, I like your shoes, I'd be like, Oh, I got them at pay less, like they really were like, or got them at, like, goodwill, like, I always had to, like, put myself down. And so I made this mental rule, like, if someone compliments you, you just have to say thank you, which was so uncomfortable. Just be like, thank you. Oh, I appreciate that. So I did a lot of games, but I really feel like, along with the exposure, because I don't think the exposure would have worked if I wasn't like, you know what? Honestly, it was like this screw you attitude that came before the exposure. I was like, I'm so tired of what everyone thinks. I'm like, Screw everybody. Like, I love myself, I'm quirky, I'm not your flavor. That's a you problem, not a me problem. I got kind of feisty and angry about it, and I was like, I don't care if my hair doesn't look good, or I don't care if you don't want to be my friend, or I don't care if I sit here in this auditorium and you're worried about that. That's a you problem. And so I got a little feisty, and then, at the same time, was putting myself in exposures. And so I think it was a two for up for me, yeah,
KC Davis 34:42
well, it does. It sounds like it goes hand in hand, but I do like the distinction you made where it was like, I do think a lot of us make the mistake that, like, we first need to, like, sit in our closet and convince ourselves we're worthy, and then we can go out and do things, as opposed to Yes. And I think. So what I hear you saying is a lot of even kind of like self compassion. And Christy Neff actually makes a distinction where she talks about self compassion and she talks about fierce self compassion. And fierce self compassion is angry. It is fu it is, I don't care. It is this, like, feistiness of advocacy. And so I like, I mean, it kind of sounds like exactly the same thing, which is funny, because, like, you know, when I wrote how to keep house while drowning, that was kind of the backbone of that book, was we have to do these at the same time. Like, we have to have this, like, gentle skill building, where, yes, we're looking for accommodations, but we're also like, doing the thing right, and we have to have this like, emotional skill of self compassion, where we're like identifying when we're being critical and we are, you know, trying to change the way we're talking about that. And like giving ourselves permission to be human, and giving ourselves permission to, you know, not always be perfect. And I just, I feel like, the older I get, the more I feel like that's like most issues, right? Is like that double approach of like gentle skill building that has to balance accommodating and, you know, challenging exposure and those, like emotional skills, like they really does have to be both,
Natasha Daniels 36:26
yeah, it does. And, I mean, and even it's a daily practice, like, even, you know, currently, I have to ask myself some, some of the time, like, do I do I want to go there, you know? Or am I forcing myself to go there just because I think I'm avoiding because of my social anxiety, or do I just not care and I don't want to, you know? And so it's like, because you want to be true to yourself, and it's not just about throwing yourself off the cliff all the time, which is what I did initially. It's like, you know, sometimes I don't really want to go there, or I actually learned how to say no more with my social anxiety, you know, like I often said yes because I didn't want to hurt someone else's feelings, or I felt like I wanted them to like me. And so I'm saying no to a lot more stuff as well, because, like, that is my authentic self, yeah.
KC Davis 37:10
I mean, people pleasing has a lot of forms, yeah? And in some ways, you know, I can see how much more of a boundary person you would become in that process, yeah,
Natasha Daniels 37:21
to protect because you become your friend. You know, you're like, I Natasha, doesn't want to
KC Davis 37:28
go, you know? Well, Natasha, this has been another great conversation. Can you tell everybody? Tell us again, the name of your book and where we can find it.
Natasha Daniels 37:35
Yeah, you can. It's called out of my shell, and it's where books are sold online, you can go to social anxiety reality.com. Is the website for it, and I did create a separate Instagram account just for social anxiety, which is social anxiety reality, where I do reels, and I just like they're embarrassing, I try not to watch them. That's my daily struggle. So yeah, if you want to be voyeuristic, you can check that out. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. You.