129: Surviving Jeffrey Epstein with Lisa Phillips

Today’s episode is about surviving abuse, and I’m joined by Lisa Phillips, an abuse survivor. She shares her horrifying experience of surviving abuse at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein, along with so many other young girls. Lisa hosts a podcast called From Now On, where she dives headfirst into stories of abuse and recovery. Join us.

Show Highlights:

• Lisa’s experience with Jeffrey Epstein when she was a young model in NYC

• Understanding the scope of sex trafficking and sexual predators

• Common questions survivors ask themselves: “Am I the crazy one? How could I not have known? How could I have been so stupid?”

• Red flags, boundaries, predators, and “the switch”

• Look out for “love bombers”!

• The irony of sharing a history of sexual abuse with a partner (“They want to abuse you in the same way you were abused.”)

• It’s hard to leave a relationship if you are trauma-bonded to that partner.

• Abuse makes you more at risk of being abused again.

• Lisa’s podcast guests, their stories, and universal experiences of abuse

• Talking to our kids about evil people and “bad guys”

• The main danger is NOT from strangers.

Resources and Links:

Connect with Lisa Phillips: Instagram, From Now On Podcast, Podcast Instagram, Podcast TikTok, and From Now On YouTube

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:04

  Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. This is struggle care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and today we're going to be talking about surviving abuse. And I have Lisa Phillips here, who is an abuse survivor. Most notably, you talk about surviving Jeffrey Epstein, and so you are a host of a podcast called From now on, where you dive head first into stories about abuse and recovery. And I'm just excited to kind of jump in with you. Lisa, thank you for being here.

  Lisa Phillips 0:32

  You're so welcome. So happy to be here and talk about this very important information.

  KC Davis 0:38

  So you know, can you start by telling us, like a small sketch of your experience with Jeffrey Epstein, so that listeners kind of know where you're coming from. And then I want to quickly, kind of dive into honestly, like, what your podcast references, which is, you know, moving forward from now on. You know, what does that look like going forward? So, yeah, tell us what happened. So

  Lisa Phillips 1:01

  Jeffrey Epstein had a very deep, expansive sex trafficking ring, and most people are aware that the trouble that he got in originally was for underage girls with Ghislaine Maxwell in Florida. But a lot of people don't know that there was tons of girls over 18 and still very young under, I would say, 2324 that were part of this whole web that he pulled you into, and he groomed and manipulated many young women under the guise of being very charming and like a mentor. He wasn't a playboy, he just was a mentor. And he helped a lot of women, but he brought them into this web that he would traffic you to others. And so I was looking for, you know, hanging out with these types of people when I was young. And I was a model in New York City. I was just on an island doing a photo shoot, and one of the other young women that was on the shoot, she invited me to go to an island of a friend of hers, and we had the day off. And so, you know, I trusted her. She was also quite young, beautiful, blonde, tall, gorgeous blonde from Poland. And I was like, Sure, let's go, you know, just innocently thinking, you know, it was probably going to be like other times around, kind of older men, younger women, but like, usually, nothing crazy happens. So we took the boat over to Jeffrey. I've seen the island little St James, and so, you know, we just had a lovely time with the other girls there, playing in the pool. And, you know, went to dinner. And that's when I met Jeffrey. And during that time my life, I was almost at the height of my modeling career. I was doing really well. I've already traveled around the world, very cultured. Grew up in Europe half my life, and so I kind of bonded with him a little bit. I mean, that was probably part of his charm and his grooming. But, I mean, I didn't know at the time, he asked me questions about my family, and he really got into my psyche and what I loved and what I how I grew up, and things that goals and my ambitions for life, and it was just this really wonderful conversation where I was like, Wow, this like, older, wealthy guy is interested in little me, and so, you know, I felt good about him. And I was talking to the other girls and everyone else there was, I found out later there were some that were under age, but I thought they were the same age as me at the time, and besides that, everything seemed pretty normal. And then, you know, got ready for bed. We ended up sleeping over that night because it got laid and we couldn't get a boat back. So we ended up sleeping over that night. We got, like, our pajamas and ready for bed with the other model, and there was a knock at the door, and one of the other young girls said, Oh, Jeff was ready for his massage. And that's when I looked at the other girl, the Polish girl, and I was like, What are you talking about massage? Like, I don't know how to do a massage. And she's like, Oh, well, we kind of have to. I'm like, What do you mean we have to? She's like, well, just, I guess, just follow what I do. And so, you know, she led me over to, like, his bedroom. We went in, and it was a massage. He did actually teach us massage techniques, things like that, but eventually it turned into touching and salt with myself and the other girl. And so after that, you know, we went back to the quarters, and, you know, I stayed up all night, like wondering what the heck has gone on. And it just was a really confusing time in my life. I went back to New York, and I really felt like nothing was really ever the same. I felt really, you know, used, violated, assaulted, and I didn't really have any words to describe it, or anyone to talk to around that time. And I also felt like maybe I was only one, you know, and when I would see that other model out of castings or at events and things like that, she just didn't talk about it. It was almost like she didn't want to say anything about it. And so I just suppressed it and just kept it to myself. And over those months, you know, his secretary would call me all the time, like, Jeffrey wants to see you. Jeffrey really liked you. Jeffrey thought you were amazing. Being intelligent, gave me all these compliments, but I was just like, No freaking way. Am I going back and seeing that man? So that's how it started. So one of

  KC Davis 5:09

  the things that kind of sticks out to me is that, you know, I think when people hear the term sex trafficking, there's this really specific, like, image that they get in their minds. And it's like that. You know the movie Taken right? Some Eastern European men are going to bust down your hotel room or stock you in the Target parking lot and swipe you off your feet, and you're gonna stand up on a stage and be auctioned off in chains. And I mean, sadly, that does exist in the world, but I think that's kind of like the first thing that I would imagine being difficult about being a survivor is like, that's kind of the picture we have about sex trafficking, and yet the sex trafficking that is much more widespread is closer to what you experienced. I didn't even know it at the time, yeah, and I'm wondering how much that contributes to that sort of like, am I the crazy one? Yeah. I

  Lisa Phillips 6:03

  mean, I definitely thought like that for many years. I would just suppress it and not think about it because I didn't really understand what had gone on. I just thought, oh, it's bad luck that these men would why is it? Every time I go to an audition, this man would try to abuse me, you know, just thought. I just thought, Oh, it's just the business, and it really is the business too. But there's this whole thing that we're learning now, like with Puff Daddy, Sean Combs and his sex trafficking ring and many others, it's systemic. It's this thing where they bring you on and then they send you to people you're thinking, it's for a music career or an audition, or you're an ambitious young woman, or you just look up to the person, he's a mentor, and you go along with this, but you're not knowing that they're actually sending you there for a reason. So I didn't even understand that until after Jeffrey died, and I started speaking out and wanting to connect with other survivors, because there were so many, I was like, I want to know what happened to me. Like, I'm so confused about the situation, and everyone was so hush hush. A lot of my girlfriends that knew him at the time didn't want to talk about it, or, you know, they're married now, and, you know, they don't want to bring that stuff up, so, but I am, you know, I'm a single woman here. I tried, well, I was in a relationship at the time, and I tried to talk to my boyfriend at the time that I lived with, and I thought I was going to share the rest of my life with, but he didn't want to talk to me. He just was like, No, I don't want to hear about it. And I'm like, Well, how am I supposed to figure this out? I have no one to talk to, and I didn't have a supportive family, so I just started reaching out to survivors and a lot of the young ones and a lot of the over 18 months, and the stories are all the same, whether you're 15 or you're 23 so and we know the brain doesn't develop fully until you're 26 so these predators know that, that's why they're usually under 2625 years old. I don't know if this

  KC Davis 7:56

  has been your experience, but the times in my life that I've encountered predators like that. One of the things that I didn't expect was that they didn't abuse everyone. And so there would be people who would be in a similar situation in terms of power dynamic, or in terms of relationship, who would be like, singing that person's praises, and be like, well, I, you know, am that person. They never touched me, and they've always listened to me. And it not only like cast doubt on everyone, like, you know, any of the survivors, but it also like, makes you cast doubt on yourself. Like, Oh, for sure, that's what happened. You know, what is it? Something about me? Did I misread something? Did I ever blow something? And I finally just learned that? Like, no, that's actually, and I don't know how conscious of a tactic it is, but like that is part of the game is like all of the you know, gathering people around you, but not abusing every single one that you quote, unquote. Could, I guess? Because it creates that web of loyalty, and it casts that doubt. And I think that that really changed a lot of my perception when I would hear in news stories and things like that, you know. And for example, like one of the big one is when the survivors of Michael Jackson came out, one of the first people to speak out was Macaulay Culkin. Well, I slept in bed with him and nothing happened. Well, I was friends with him for years, and nothing happened Well, right? And everyone was either kind of like, well, he's telling the truth, or like, no, he's lying. He was abused too, but nobody really talked about that third option, of like, maybe he's telling the truth. And Michael Jackson did abuse those other boys. And I think that that it's really difficult. I think unless you've listened to survivors to appreciate how complex and almost like gas lighty and maddening and like murky the whole situation is just

  Lisa Phillips 9:50

  because, of course, they're not gonna abuse everyone. There's two different different ways of looking at it. They're going to abuse the ones that are vulnerable, the ones that they. That's why they ask a lot of questions and they get to know you a little bit, because they this one is going to be easier. And McCoy Culkin is already a big, huge star. Why would you abuse him? You know, you're going to abuse, you know, the young boys who are looking up to him and admire him and maybe want a singing career, whatever it is. But with Jeffrey, I mean, he knew that I didn't have a strong father figure, you know? And he knew I had ambition, and I know he probably saw vulnerability in me. There was plenty of young women that Jeffrey did not abuse, right? So, and with every predator, there's something that they either find vulnerable and they know that you're gonna be an easier target, or the second thing is, every guy has a type, you know what I mean. So, like, I mean, I know with Jeffrey Epstein, he loved blonde women, beautiful blonde women, I can't speak on the underage girls, because those were girls that came from a tough background and poor. And him and Ghislaine were abusing these victims in a very different way. But the girls in New York were all very intelligent, very ambitious, tall and beautiful. And he saw something in them, you know, where he was helping them. So with their art school, or putting them through acting school, or I had friends he put through college, got them the biggest jobs, auditions, things like that, you know, Ty's victoria secret. So he was actually coming through on everything. But he was very particular of what he liked. And I wasn't blonde, but I definitely had grown up in Europe, and I had a certain way about me. Was very cultured and very smart, and I know that he picked up on that.

  KC Davis 11:37

  Did you struggle with that in the aftermath of your own intelligence, because it strikes me that there's this thing we do to ourselves when we think, like, how could I have been so stupid? And yet it strikes me as this is, like a weird way to say this, but in some ways, being intelligent can make you an easier victim, because you will immediately go, I am just so ashamed. I didn't pick up on this. I should have seen this. I should have known this. I should have, I should have, I should have. I'm so competent in every other area of my life. How could I have fallen into this?

  Lisa Phillips 12:09

  Well, everybody says that. How could you have not known why didn't you see the red flags? Why did you go back? I mean, even women attack survivors all the time. But the problem is, with predators, they're just so good at what they do. They're so normal, charming and good looking, and they're charming everyone else, just like you said, they're abusing certain people, but being wonderful to everybody else. When I was around people in New York, parties, agency owners, charity events, everyone spoke highly of Jeffrey Epstein. He was friends with everybody. Everyone said, I love Jeffrey. Even, probably the girls that were abusing would say, Oh yeah, Jeffrey's great, you know, because they were those girls were groomed into thinking, because he was helping them, that he was great, like the young girl who took me to meet with him, that's what she would say, Oh, he's amazing. He's great, you know, while he's abusing her, but she's not letting me know that part of it, no as to say there's so many people through those years that praised Jeffrey Epstein. They're quiet now, because we now we know who he is, but there were so many people that were friends with him.

  KC Davis 13:09

  You know, I'm also wondering, I feel like there's this really, this path that would be so tempting to take in the aftermath of it being really difficult to trust anyone. And it seems like, you know, with what you talk about on your podcast, there's almost this needle of threading. You know, we don't have to move into just, I won't trust anyone, I won't get close to anyone, I won't take opportunities, but learning really what predators look like, learning about what those red flags are. Because I don't think even as a woman, I've had enough people talk to me about those kinds of red flags. I mean, we kind of talk about red flags and dating, but it's more about like, ah, that guy is a piece of shit. Don't date him. He's a bum. He's a whatever.

  Lisa Phillips 13:53

  Yeah, he's checking the girls out. Obviously, you know, you don't want to date him. Just simple things like that.

  KC Davis 13:57

  Yeah. But I think when we're talking about someone who is, like, a full blown, you know, narcissistic predator. Those are different red flags. And so can you share some of those things I mean, and I what made me think of this as, you know, you mentioned that asking questions thing, and it reminded me of an experience I had one time with the guy that I kind of worked with that wanted to do some, like, professional stuff with me, and we had this, like, lovely day visiting a professional something or another. And he texted me on the way home and said that was so great. I just love talking to you. And, yeah, that's nice. But I called a friend of mine and I was like, Maybe I'm being crazy or like, and I was afraid that even I would be like, accused of, like, thinking too highly of myself, because I was like, there was just something about the way he said that that felt kind of like emotionally intimate, and it made me feel like I was married at the time. So I was like, and I just, am I reading into this? Is this too, you know, am I just being ridiculous, or am I whatever? And I'm so glad of the friends. That I called because what they said to me was they validated like, hey, maybe it's nothing. Some people are just kind of, you know, real emotionally touchy feely people, they said. But one thing to keep out to know is that there are these fishing questions that people will throw out there and that some men will throw out there and ask, and depending on how you respond to those, they either sort of back up or they come closer. And I don't mean to paint this as like it's our fault if we answer a question wrong, or something like that, but yes. And fast forward, wouldn't you know, a bunch of shit came out about this guy. And I looked back, and I was like, that's what that what that testing of boundaries. So can you talk a little bit about, like, things that you now read as red flags that you maybe wouldn't have before? Mm, hmm.

  Lisa Phillips 15:51

  Well, again, when it comes to predators, especially sadists, narcissists, these types, they want to hurt you in a lot of ways. They get pleasure out of hurting you, and they don't have any empathy for you. So you have to understand you're dealing with not a normal guy who's just has normal red flags, right? You want to stay away from that guy, like, oh, he has some red flags. You talk about your girlfriend, you don't want to go out with him again, or you go on the second date. Notice more red flags. You don't go out with him again. Predators are very different. They're there to fool you, and they're very good at it. I started my podcast because I was fooled again by a man, and it just like shattered my way of thinking. I don't have the shame. I've let go of the shame of what happened to the Jeffrey Epstein back in 2002 1004 I was young, you know, and he was very good, and he followed through on everything that he said, you know, he pulled me in, but he got into my psyche to figure out who I was, and everything worked. That's just, he was just such a brilliant man in that way. So it's gonna be really tough for most women who met him to not fall under his spell, if he wanted to. But like in the dating world, I thought, you know, I couldn't be fooled, especially as we hit, you know, our 30s and 40s. I'm in my 40s now. I like I didn't think I could be fooled by a man, but it was also when I was going through the most vulnerable time of my life. I started speaking out about Jeffrey Epstein in 2020 and I was in a bad relationship with a man I was madly in love with, but paid me no you know, he was a bit of a narcissist in the way that, you know, we got together very quickly, and then he was in the discard stage, devaluing everywhere I went with him, not three out of 10 times, 10 out of 10 times. He was just checking out everybody, you know, making me feel like I was worthless. I just, I just didn't feel good about myself. And I just wanted to get away from this man so bad. And then also, I was speaking out about Jeffrey Epstein, and he wouldn't listen. He didn't want to hear me. He didn't ask any questions, and he sees me on documentaries, but pays was almost like, Oh, you're still worthless, like, I don't want to talk to you, like it's not worth my time to get to know you on a deeper level. And I was just so devastated, because I love this man, and so this is pay attention here, because I'm going to tell you with red flags with men who are, you know, predatory. You have to watch out for this type of man, because they are looking for the vulnerable side of you so they can prey on you. That's what they get off on. So when I was going through a really hard time with the boyfriend, I started speaking out. And I was on a documentary on lifetime, and a man, tons of men, actually reached out to me, but this one particular man, he lived in Boston, he was reaching out to me, and he came at me from a religious angle, and said, I'm a Christian man, and I understand what you're going through, and I feel for you, and I just want to be here for you. I have some devotionals I want to read to you, you know. And I wasn't defined as a Christian. You know, I've gone to church and things like that. But, you know, here I live here in Los Angeles, and we're just more spiritual here, and I had that spiritual side to me, but I was, like, open to it. And so I needed something, and I'm like, wow, here's maybe somebody I can talk to. And so I formed this relationship with this man, just speaking on the phone for like, three months, and he would read me devotionals. And I was like, wow, this guy really cares about me. You know, that's the love bombing stage. So much attention. He asked so many questions to get into who I was. And I would share things with him, building that bond with Me, and then went out to meet him, and, you know, didn't try to have sex with me. I'm a good Christian man, you know, like just trying to make me feel like I was loved and adored and taken care of. Were you devotionals with me? And I started liking these devotionals because they were deep talks, and I didn't have that with my prior boyfriend, and I just he was giving me all that support that I needed. So when I finally went to Boston to spend some time with him and get to know him. You know, start dating this man. Met his family. This man was nothing like he was for four months. He wasn't the good Christian man. He literally, from the time we were intimate, switched on me and said, couldn't kiss me and he couldn't make love like a. Guy. He was choking me, spitting on me, telling me he wanted threesomes, trying to use a vibrator on me, and like, I was like, What are you doing? I was completely fooled by this man. That is the reason why I created this podcast. Was because we need to look out for these types of men. He wanted to be a Jeffrey Epstein. I told him, for four months, the abuse I had with Jeffrey Epstein in the beginning was a threesome and vibrator, and I have trauma and triggers from that kind of stuff. Don't want nothing to do with it. And on the night that he met, the night that we were supposed to be intimate after knowing of four months, that's what he wanted from me, and I just shook me to the core. I was like, I can almost start crying about it right now. It was so devastating to have given my like heart to someone, and he was like my best friend, and he was just wanted to destroy me, hurt me, devalue me, and get his kicks off at me. And you

  KC Davis 20:54

  know, what's wild is that that's not the first time I've heard that, that I've heard that specific story of I shared past sexual abuse trauma with my partner, and then they asked if we could do that thing exactly.

  Lisa Phillips 21:08

  They get off on it. It's a weird thing, but a lot of men who are predators, they want to abuse you in the same way you were abused. A lot of survivors have had men reach out to them weird on a documentary talking about your bit of sexually abused and they reach out and they reach out to them. I mean, why would a man find me interesting that I'm talking about sexual assault? I mean, wouldn't there be another you know, it's just weird. And my friend said at the time, you know, he saw you on a documentary you were talking about sexual assault. So why would he be turned on by that? She they were right, and they knew the red flags from the start. But I was like, he cares about me. He was be devotionals at

  KC Davis 21:42

  night. Well, and we, you know, we talk so much about, like, you know, red flags and things like this. And sometimes someone will be talking about their relationship and and you'll hear people, or you'll, you know, whether there's an online video and people comment, they'll be like, well, you know, why didn't you think about that before you got married to him? Why didn't you see this? Why would you do that? Blah, blah, blah, blah, and like, I don't think people appreciate that. Like, yes, there are many times when we will ignore red flags, or we make an unwise relationship decision because we're we really want something from them, or we're kind of hoping against hope, and being very unwise. Yes, that happens, but I have known friends who have gone all the way to the altar and gotten into marriage with someone, and they literally come home one day, and it's like a switch flips, and they are a different person. And I don't think we talk about that enough, because yes, we want to be wise in our decisions, but like that is real, but, but it does make you as the woman, feel like, well, am I the dumb one? Should I have seen this coming? And no, if people really do switch like that, predators,

  Lisa Phillips 22:54

  at least, yeah, he was a witch. I didn't even know who that man was anymore, but it was like, when they trap you they had. I was trapped. And then when they have you, or you're engaged, or you're married, and then they don't have to, oh, you're pregnant, that's

  KC Davis 23:07

  the big one too. Like a lot a lot of men, the switch happens when you get pregnant. And I also think, or I can imagine, that makes it harder, because there was this version of that person that was real to you, and how easy and normal it would be to go, Okay, can we just, how can we just get back to that person like that is a person you fell in love with?

  Lisa Phillips 23:29

  Yeah, you're always fighting to get that person back, but that person never existed. Yeah, that's the importance of speaking about this and speaking out about our experiences, because it just educates as soon as you hear someone else's story, you're like, Okay, now I know look out for that, or that's happening to me right now. And women, we need to come into our power and understand that we don't have to put up with it. A lot of women think, Oh, well, I'm never gonna find anyone better. Well, he's not good. Like, what do you mean? Find anyone better? Yeah, probably every other man is better, so you have to let go of that emotional side. Yeah, exactly that, that emotional side of us that's connected a lot of times, trauma bonded to the man that I was in love with. I was trauma bonded to him. It was very hard for me to leave him, because I felt like that was the only love that I'd ever experienced. It was never a good love.

  KC Davis 24:19

  Oh gosh, this always happens to me, like the thought, like flies out of my head right before I go to say it. I've heard people talk before about like, how being abused makes you at higher risk to be abused again by someone else. Oh, absolutely. I think most of us have heard that. But one of the ways that that gets talked about a lot is almost a little like victim Blamey, where it's like, oh, we don't know how to make good choices, or we get so broken that we'll just take any old sock that comes around, blah, blah, blah. But people don't talk enough about part of the reason why it makes you more at risk is because predators will literally seek you out, like it's through no fault of your own. Oh

  Lisa Phillips 25:00

  yeah. I mean, even with my podcast right now and being on TV, well, YouTube, you know, the amount of men that have reached out to me. You know, I can't trust any of them. There might be a nice guy in there, there might be a future husband in there, but I'm not going out with you if you saw me on my podcast.

  KC Davis 25:14

  So talk to me about what that kind of I think that's also the part that's hardest for people to understand, is kind of the getting sucked back in well after that horrible

  Lisa Phillips 25:24

  relationship, I just, you know, I haven't been dating up until more recently, I'm a little more open, because I'm out and about and networking, and I want to trust men. I know there's really great men out there. I'm raising great men, and I know they exist because I have girlfriends that have phenomenal husbands. But you're right when you have been an abuse survivor, someone like Jeffrey Epstein, and what I went through and being lent out, I guess, to meet with directors, I think I'm going for an audition and having that abuse. And then my husband, you know, our relationship ended after four years, and then I had this Boston guy who was, like, the worst of all of them, I just was thinking, just like you said, you're abused, I'm more prone to it, and I'm not a victim, but because you have been abused, we're more vulnerable, and we want to make the better choices. But because we're more vulnerable, predators, they sniff it out, they know it. So a lot of times it could be a normal man approaching me, but a lot of times the predators are still going to approach how

  KC Davis 26:26

  do you keep from hating your own vulnerability?

  Lisa Phillips 26:31

  Well, for many years, I did hate kind of like that part of me that fell for that kind of world and or fell for that bad relationship, I had a lot of shame around it, because I'm like, I went into everything, just like, with a good heart. You know, I've been a good person. And maybe I was ambition. Maybe I was ambitious back then, or maybe I just wanted love, or I wanted a friendship. You know, there's nothing wrong with any of that, and but people make you feel like it's all your fault. You should have known. And the horrible things people say even family members. You know, I got a text message from my own mother saying, I'm ashamed of you, and I'm like, Really, and you're not ashamed of him. You know, there I have pictures of eight girls under age that he was having sex with, giving them money, but I'm the shameful one. You know, it's like people that are so when it comes to these charming men, they just get pulled in. And it's not us, the victim or the survivor, it's everyone else around them too. They're flying monkeys that they pull in. It's like, oh, she's got the problems. I'm great, you know, I try to help her, and I try to do this and this and that, and they believe the charming one because, oh, he looks so nice. You know, he could never do any wrong, because these things are done behind closed doors. When he's choking you and stuff, nobody sees it. So it's crazy world out there, but that's why the podcast exists. It's just to educate it really is, and to also empower those who've gone through it, or those that are going through it now. So

  KC Davis 27:54

  tell me about some of the guests that you've had on your podcast, and some of the things that you related to that you found are, you know, kind of universal in these experiences?

  Lisa Phillips 28:03

  Well, yeah, a lot of guests stories have been very triggering for me, and it's awesome to connect the dots sometimes when you know what, Jordan Weber, the gymnast who was abused by Larry Nassar, you know, tons of young women were abused by him. And she said to me that, you know, I used to hang around the other girls, and we used to all say is Larry doing something to you, touching you? Kind of weird. And they all kind of talked about it, but no one identified it as abuse, because he's their gymnast, and they all looked up to him. All the parents loved him. Everyone loved and adored this man. That's what he that's what they create. Is this world of trust. And so the young girls that are being abused, it's like, is he doing that to you? But no one really says, Oh, this isn't right. This doesn't feel right. This is not okay, because they think it's under treatment. Same with Jeffrey Epstein, everyone thought they were doing a massage, you know, that turned into just a little bit of touching or a vibrator or abuse. It wasn't like hardcore raping, you know, like Larry Nassar. These are Bill Cosby giving a pill to everyone, you know, and they're unconscious. God, it's horrible. They're unconscious while he's doing, God knows what, to their body, you know. But they don't really know, because they wake up and it's like, what happened, you know? So some of these predators are just, they're so good at fooling everyone while they just get their little kicks off and their hots off, whatever it is of abuse. So it's very different for someone just, you're jogging in Central Park and someone grabs you in the bush and rapes you. It's very different. So I try to focus on these serial predators, just so people understand that it's not all black and white and abuse survivors. They don't understand what happened to them, usually, until they talk to the other 3050, 100 girls that it happened to them as well. And it's like, Oh, that makes sense. He's doing that to me. He's doing that to you, too. And this is abuse. So it wasn't until I started speaking to all these. Survivors, I'm like, Oh my gosh, you all went through the same thing I went through, and I can define it now, as I was assaulted by this man where before, for those years, I was just confused, like, why is he touching me? Am I the only one who's getting touched like that? You know, that's hard

  KC Davis 30:16

  to do the big deal when you finally allowed yourself to say that it was assault.

  Lisa Phillips 30:21

  Yeah, it was a big deal. It didn't feel good. It had a lot of shame around it. I've, you know, been in therapy about it because, yeah, I wanted to paint the picture like Jeffrey was great. You know, he helped me out in a lot of ways. I always wanted to paint that picture for many, many years, just like, just like the other girls used to say, because it's like, you trick your mind a little bit to be like, No, he was good, and you don't ever want to think about the other things.

  KC Davis 30:48

  Yeah, it's interesting. This is such a random tangent. But my girls, I have a four and a six year old, and they're in that phase where, like, things are still magical and imaginary, and they want to know, like, are unicorns real or like that? And one of the things that one of them asked me the other day, the four year old said she really likes bad guys from like, cartoons and things like that, right? Really? And she asked me, are bad guys real? And, you know, I told her no. And part of the reason I said NO is because I know what she's thinking of when she thinks of bad guys is like the Green Goblin from Spidey and friends that she's watching on Disney plus, right? And so I said to her, you know, bad guys like you see on cartoons are not real, but there are people that do bad things, and they're, you know, there are people that do good things and people that do bad things, and there are tricky people that might be nice to you and want to play with you, but then ask you to do something unsafe. And there's been a lot of talk and answer, yeah. There's been a lot of talk in the parenting world about kind of using this term tricky people, yeah, because they don't understand manipulative Right, right? And it's because when we're kids, we have this idea that, like, the bad guy is really obvious, like the bad guy is ugly because they always are in cartoons, right? Or deformed or mean, or cackling like a witch, right? Like they're obvious by the way that they act, by the way that they treat everyone. And so, you know, no wonder we kind of grow up with this idea that that's what a bad person looks like, that. That's what a predator looks like, that. That's what someone evil looks like. And it's no wonder that it's so confusing to us to sort of navigate a world where that's not how the most evil people operate, even a little and it just, it made me think about that kind of turn we're taking, even as we talk to our children, sort of preparing them for a world at a developmentally appropriate level, right of like, Man, I don't want them to think that like smoke and Shadows is gonna billow out behind somebody before they ask you something you know awful, or before they do something bad. Because, as we see, it's like a lifelong, you know thing to wrestle with about, what does it mean to encounter a predator, and what does it mean to avoid a predator, and what does it mean to know when a predator has you in their grasp? I'm

  Lisa Phillips 33:16

  like that with my 13 year old boy too. He used to ride his bike like just the Starbucks a couple blocks away, and I would say, you know, please don't talk to strangers. Don't talk to anybody that you don't know. It's like, Come on, Mom, I'm a boy. Like, they don't kidnap boys. I'm like, yes, they do. Jasper, yes they do. And he's like, Well, I could fight them off. And I'm like, well, they're always gonna be stronger than you, you know. And I just like, sometimes these boys, the boys think that there's they're completely safe, you know, and as we know, they're not. So yeah, it's we have to have these conversations with our kids pretty young. I mean, four to six is a great age to start well. And

  KC Davis 33:50

  the idea that, like, it's funny that your son would say that, because I think, and I don't know why this was just said to, like us as kids, or if it's always been this way, but like, I grew up under the impression that, like, the main danger was going to be from strangers, and yet we see that, like, the majority of predators are actually entering people's lives through relationship, right? It's gonna be your coach or a teacher or your uncle or a friend or a big brother's friend, you know what I mean, and even that, like, lines up so perfectly with what you've been raising awareness of. You know, it's not going to look the way you think. We have to rely on something else when we kind of start to get into that tricky territory, yeah. And

  Lisa Phillips 34:29

  it's also really good to know, especially nowadays, predators always use a woman and because, you know, they always like Jeffrey with Ghislaine. You know, all those young girls came because of Glen Maxwell, yeah, and they Puff Daddy, like they have these women around that make them feel safe. I mean, well, Jeffrey also, it was always the younger girls bringing their friends, you know? So it's like they try to get the girls to under to they try to get girls to reach out to other girls, to bring them into the web, right? So you. Have to be careful. Sometimes we're like, don't talk to guys or go find a woman at the mall. And most likely, if you're in an unsafe situation or you can't find your parents somewhere, yes, you go to a woman, but if a woman approaches you, still you can be, of course, nicer to a woman, but you know, don't go anywhere with someone. You know. Just don't go anywhere with anybody you

  KC Davis 35:25

  Yeah, I remember listening to, I forget her name, but she was a pop star that was a survivor of Puff Daddy and one of the other ones, but she told her story, and she went to a party with her agent, who was a woman, and so she thought, Well, I'm fine. And she noticed that something was getting spiked in the drinks, and she was, like, trying to get her agent's attention to be like, don't drink the drinks. Don't drink. Like, thinking they're in there together. And all of a sudden, you know, fast forward, and kind of everyone's left, but her and her agent, and these men and her agent is like, Okay, I'm gonna go to the bathroom now. And it like dawns on her. Oh, my God. She knows what's happening. She brought me here, and she says, You know, I they're like the producer was there. And she said, I, you know, I make con they're like assaulting me. And I'm making eye contact with this producer, thinking, Surely he's gonna say something. Surely he's gonna stop it. I've talked to this guy about his children, for goodness sake, and he just turns around to the mixing board. And I think that that's like, it's terrifying, but I think that is empowering to talk about the truth of you know, we would think that we were safe because of ABC, or we think that we're impervious because of these things that we know. And I think there's something really scary, but I think there's also something maybe comforting in a grieving type of way to know that, like, if somebody wants to overpower you, you can't stop them. So there's no, there's no like, well, if I would have, if I could have, if I should have, like, these are people who have made it their life's goal to track people and outwit outsmart, you know, bring the power systems around them. What is a 22 year old or a 30 year old, or even a 40 year old woman supposed to do against someone who has made it their profession to do this? It's very

  Lisa Phillips 37:13

  difficult, and it's so crazy that you just said that story, because, in my experience as a model, there was tons of agents that would take me to parties with older men, organized dinners or charity events, and it was always us young girls, and there were these older guys. And in particular, I didn't tell you how I got reeled back in to, well, lured back in with Jeffrey. He had called me one day. This is after months and months of his secretary calling me, and I said, Nope, not coming back to meet that man. He called me and he said, I remembered what you said on the island, you know about your missions as a model. And he said, I know Katie Ford at the Ford model agency. And he was like, Do you want to meet her? I was just like, Oh, my God, you're kidding me. Like that was my goal. I'd already tried to get with that agency twice and been denied. And you know, he sent me over there to meet with her, and I know I got signed up with that agency and had a long career with Ford models, but when you just said that, it triggered something in me, because I have an NDA with a celebrity, and Jeffrey had told me to go to a party. This is in 2001 and I went to that party, and the owner of four models was there with a bunch of models, and the celebrity was all over me. And I was kept saying, there's actually, like, a Getty image of me, like, ew, get away from me to, you know, that was a picture that was taken that was published of me with that person. So they couldn't deny that they didn't know me. And so, you know, the Jeffrey had told me to go to this party, and I'm thinking, Oh, I just get to go to this great movie premiere party, you know, with my friends, and that celebrity made a beeline towards me, wouldn't leave me that entire night. And I kept like, saying, no, no, no, get off of me. And then I talked to the agency owner and some friends, and she was just like, oh yeah, come with me. We're gonna go to a couple parties. And I was like, okay, thinking everything was normal. And I went with her to another party and super high end party. It was really nice, and had a good time. And then about an hour later, she's like, Oh, we're gonna go to another party. And I was like, Okay, I was getting tired and stuff, and she takes me to that celebrities hotel room, and he's got this big suite. And I'm just like, that's the guy that would leave me alone at the restaurant. And like, I don't want to be here. She said, Oh, we're just gonna hang out here. And it was me and another girl and the celebrity. And so I was kind of like, sitting in the corner, just like, kind of my mining business, just waiting until she wanted to leave. And then I went into the bathroom. And when I came out of the bathroom, the women were gone, the agency owner was gone, and I was just like, looking around. I was like, trying to grab my bag and leave. And the celebrity came out, and this is the big celebrity, one of the biggest in the world. And I was just like, Oh, shit. Are you kidding me? Like, I'm now trapped here with this guy who I knew what he wanted, because he talked about it the whole time at the restaurant. And after that, I was just like. Why would she leave me? You know, when you said the agent who left the music, the musician, she left me just like that with this. She knew what was going on and so, and she was also had the ties with Jeffrey Epstein, and so I don't know what was going on between Jeffrey, that celebrity, and her, but she left me there knowing I didn't want to be there. And I was assaulted that night, and I had kept that with me for so long, and I would never have spoken out about it or like I'm doing right now. I have an NDA, so I can't say his name, but when I was going through depositions and going through court hearings with my attorneys from 2020 to 2024 earlier this year, I would speak about this incident, and that's when my attorneys were like, oh, we need to do something about this. And I'm like, Oh, no way am I speaking out. I remember last year, survivors of assault from 20 years ago or beyond had a short window to file, and I my attorneys sent them a letter saying we were going to file, and they immediately ties to Epstein. Ties them all agency owner, they wanted to talk, and we had a picture from 2001 with me sitting with him at the restaurant. So he couldn't say, Oh, I don't know this girl. He knew exactly who I was, and probably wouldn't think 20 years later it was going to come back. But you know, that was very empowering to me, because I never thought I would stand up to somebody like that. But yeah, women, agents can set you up. You know, it's not just men,

  KC Davis 41:23

  yeah, it's a network. It truly is a network and a system. And, gosh, well, Lisa, thank you so much for God just the tremendous amount of work that you have done to be able to talk about this publicly and to be able to help people with your story. And I just, it's really touching, and I'm just, I don't know, it makes me feel like, proud to be a woman, you know what I mean, in like, kind of a, in a mood, in a in a way

  Lisa Phillips 41:48

  we are, we're powerful women. Yeah, can

  KC Davis 41:50

  you share with people? You know, where they can find you if they want to follow you or they want to keep up with you? I know you have a book coming out soon. Very

  Lisa Phillips 41:57

  excited about that. I've been wanting to write a book for so many years, and this is just the right timing, because I do want to empower and help women through this process. So I'm on Instagram at, I am Lisa Phillips and at, from now on pod on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube, awesome. And what's the name of your does your book have a title yet? It's an empowering title for women, like stepping into your power, it's what I love to talk about, and it's

  KC Davis 42:24

  gonna be good, awesome. Well, I will look forward to that. Thank you so much, Lisa, thank you, Casey. You.