14: Weaponized Incompetence with Dr. Lesley Cook

Today’s topic is weaponized incompetence. If you aren’t familiar with the term, stay tuned and learn more with us. I’m thrilled to be joined again by Dr. Lesley Cook, who is a psychologist and good friend. She lives in Virginia and works mostly with neurodivergent kids, adolescents, and adults. Join us for the conversation!

Show Highlights:

• An explanation of “weaponized incompetence” and what it means

• How weaponized incompetence applies to the division of household labor 

• The key to analyzing weaponized incompetence: Why is it happening?

• Why this is a tricky topic, especially for those who are neurodivergent and feel challenged

• Why dignity should be preserved in these conversations with a partner

• Why it’s OK to set boundaries even if someone is unintentionally hurting you

• Ways to solve problems without shame or blame

• The difference in functional barriers and weaponized incompetence

• How to talk through solutions and support for a partner

• How “maternal gatekeeping” plays into the dynamic

• Why couples need to have conversations about care tasks, household chores, and childcare BEFORE they have kids

• Why there is a difference between weaponized incompetence and learned helplessness

• Dr. Lesley’s tips: “Approach your partner in good faith, open up the conversation, and ask for collaboration in finding something that works better for BOTH partners.”

• Why the question should be, “Is exploitation happening?”

• Why you can’t go on appearances regarding a division of labor

• How to begin the approach with a partner or child: “This isn’t working for me; how can we figure this out together?”

Resources:

Connect with Dr. Lesley: TikTok and Instagram

Connect with KC: TikTok and Instagram

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

Helpful resources mentioned in this episode:

 How Not to Hate Your Husband After Kids by Jancee Dunn

 Fair Play by Eve Rodsky 

     The Sensory Child Gets Organized by Carolyn Dalgliesh

     Ready for Take-Off by Theresa E. Laurie Maitland and Patricia O. Quinn

                 A Radical Guide for Women with ADHD by Sari Solden, Michelle Frank, and Ellen Littman

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:06

  Hello, and welcome to the Struggle Care Podcast. I'm excited today because I've got Dr. Leslie Cook. I just call her Leslie. So I love when I get to whip out people's full names, who is an awesome psychologist and a friend of mine. And we're going to talk today about weaponized incompetence. So let's say go ahead and introduce yourself. Sure.

  Lesley PsyD 0:25

  I am Dr. Leslie Cook. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist currently residing in the state of Virginia and I work mostly with neuro divergent kids, adolescents, adults, and the aged as well.

  KC Davis 0:37

  And if you don't know me, or you don't know us, we're both on tick tock, you can find me at domestic blisters. Lesley, where can they find you on tick tock,

  Lesley PsyD 0:44

  I'm at @LesleyPsyd, and I'm on Instagram too, but you will find the Instagram to be slightly disappointed. So tik tok is where to find me.

  KC Davis 0:54

  Like to. Alright, so I want to tell the audience how this came about. I actually in working on my book, I called Lesley up because I wanted to ask her a question about weaponized incompetence and sort of run something by her. And we ended up in this awesome conversation, where I was like kicking myself, like, why are we recording this, we need to just start recording our conversations. And so that's why I was like, let's go on. Let's go on the podcast. And let's talk again. And just so you guys know, we don't have an outline. There was no pre podcast chat. That's not really how I roll. And so we're gonna see how it goes. But let's just start here. What for people who have not heard the term weaponized and competence? What are we going to talk about? What does that term refer to?

  Lesley PsyD 1:35

  Yeah, so that term is a very specific way to manipulate someone who you're usually in a romantic relationship, although it can happen between parents and children as well, or perhaps between peers. And it's a very specific dynamic. And what it means is that one individual has the ability to engage in some kind of supportive task or collaborative task. But they don't want to do it. And so in order to put pressure on the other person to do it, they do it poorly, or halfway, or make large mistakes on purpose in order to kind of get the other person to guilt themselves into doing it for them. It's actually a pretty damaging pattern in relationships, because it can be very subtle, and it's difficult to call out because it's very easy to deny.

  KC Davis 2:24

  When when I worked for rehabs, we would do family programs. And we had this deck of cards that I made, where we would talk about game playing, like the psychological games that we sometimes totally subconsciously play when we're trying to manipulate a situation. And one of the games was called be the problem. And the idea is basically that, okay, there's this responsibility that I have, that I've either been asked to do, or it's just understood that I'm supposed to do it. And I know that if I do a bad enough job at it, you won't ask me to do it again. Or you'll take over and do it. And so that we always call that game be the problem. And so the example I would always use is like, okay, let's say you ask your partner to do the dishes, and they break a plate, and they get water everywhere, and they don't wipe the water up, and they put the dish soap instead of the like, pot in there. Like they put the wrong kind of soap in and it floods everywhere. Like, if that's how they approach the task, then what usually happens is that the other partner goes, Oh, my gosh, it's more work for me when you attempt this than it is for me to just do it myself. And so that becomes the short term solution of that partner. But what does that do long term

  Lesley PsyD 3:37

  that burns out everybody. And that's why it's one of the most insidious forms of emotional manipulation and abuse because like I said, it's difficult to call out and it really wears away at the other person until they can't tell if their boundaries are being violated or not.

  KC Davis 3:53

  It also makes me think about there was some really like old school books written about the differences between men and women that were based on junk science. And some like one of the big ones was like, Well, women are really good at multitasking. And men aren't and I think it was the like men are from Mars, Women are from Venus book that came up with the like, women's brains are like spaghetti, where we have these inter woven thoughts, and we can keep track of a bazillion things at once. But men are like waffles and they can only think about one thing at a time. And like, I don't know if that comes up in your practice, but like I still hear that shit today.

  Lesley PsyD 4:34

  I still hear that from therapists. I've been in a therapy session in a couples counseling session a long time ago with a therapist who said that, you know, men's brains are just built to blank blank blank and women's brains are just better at multitasking. And that's absolutely not true. We know that's all been debunked, but it's it's built into a lot of our assumptions. And when we learn that is very young children, especially when we see like gendered chores and care tasks, Home, while you're just you have this chore because girls are kind of better at that. And you know, Johnny, we just have him do one thing, because if I haven't tried to do too much, it just kind of is a mess. So there is another version of weaponized competence. That's a learned pattern and is not overtly abusive. And I'm sure we'll talk about this later on. But there's some distinctions and like, subcategories,

  KC Davis 5:23

  yeah, I think, especially when, whenever I talk about division of labor, like on my tick tock channel, especially when you only have 60 seconds, like, I don't talk about it a ton. And one of the reasons why is that there's a lot of people that talk about weaponized incompetence, as if everyone who is engaging in weaponized incompetence is evil, and abusive, and misogynistic. And yes, that exists out there, like there are men and women out there that are absolutely purposefully being malicious in the way that they're ducking and dodging, you know, participating in household labor. But my experience as a therapist, is that more times than not, there are partners that have just been socialized in a certain way. So when they say, Well, I just don't see it, I just don't see it. It's like, number one, it's not an excuse, like you don't get to not participate in household labor, because you quote, just don't see it. But at the same time, like maybe the only reason I see it is because my nervous system has an anxiety response to it. Because from a, as a small child, it was pointed out to me every single time, why didn't you do this, this should be done? Why does your room look like this in a way that it's not done with other genders? So there's a real serious like, a real experiential truth to I don't see it.

  Lesley PsyD 6:46

  And I think one of the I talk a lot about finding the why on my tic tock page, just because it applies to so many things. But when as we talk about weaponized incompetence, I think one of the most important things to figure out is the why behind what's happening, because there is this kind of socialization, base weaponized incompetence that's out of awareness, there is a very different version, and there's some warning signs when this other version is occurring. And then there's skills deficits, and then there's neuro divergence. And so before we really intervene or make broad sweeping statements, I think we all have to stop and try to find that why.

  KC Davis 7:19

  And, you and I have talked before about when, and this is true of any kind of therapeutic or psychological concept, but especially when it comes to talking about weaponized incompetence. I know that you and I are both hyper aware that when we're talking in a podcast, when we're talking online, when we're talking kind of to the void, that there are several different audiences listening, like there is that partner listening whose partner is downright abusive, who is maliciously using weaponized incompetence, because they do not care about that person. They never will be a respectful partner. And that's just what that is. But we also know that there are couples, roommates, maybe you know, Father, daughter, dyads, listening, where, I mean, they kind of come by honestly, they don't see that privilege. I mean, I love the phrase dad privilege, because it really brings forth that idea that, you know, for me, as a white woman, I have white privilege, which means I don't see the hardships that I don't experience, I don't see the extra burdens that I don't carry, because I am not a part of a marginalized group. And I think that there is a subset of dad privilege. And I think that privilege because this comes up a lot in heteronormative couples, but I've seen it and same sex couples also, it's just whoever the primary caregiver is, or the primary sort of like house keeper. The other one just doesn't see how much labor is actually going into it. And the reason why I always want for us to have nuance on this topic is because if you just talk about it, like yeah, those stupid partners, those sucky partners suck it up. What's going to happen is that partners who are loving and kind are gonna go well, they must not be talking to me, because I'm not abusive, I'm not able. So I must not be participating in this problematic dynamic, but they are.

  Lesley PsyD 9:21

  And I think we run the risk of doing the opposite to and I've seen this on Tik Tok a few times where it appears that what's happening is really not intentional. And the other partner, the primary caregiver will post the video shaming that partner, making fun of them, belittling them demeaning them. And so we do we have so many different audiences that I think it's incredibly important to give people that extra step. Like first before I decide what to do, how do I know what direction to go in?

  KC Davis 9:51

  And then I heard one of our friends I think it might have been Robin, but it actually might have been you. Somebody was talking on a tick tock and they said, What we don't tell Talk about enough is weaponized. Competence. competency. Yep. And that kind of that other bucket that you're talking about where somebody has a real functional barrier, whether it's a chronic illness or neuro divergence, and they really are struggling with what seems to other people like basic care tasks around the home, and probably their whole life, people have been saying, Well, this is just weaponized incompetence? How could you struggle to just do the dishes?

  Lesley PsyD 10:28

  Yeah, so I think my most enjoyable things to point out when I am trying to connect with other ADHD folks is to ask them, you know, how many half empty beverage cups do you have in your bedroom? Because that is for some reason. And maybe it's only in the US, I don't know if it's a cultural thing, too. But for some reason, that seems to be something so familiar to us. And it also comes laced with this kind of shame on the other side of that humor, because that's also one of the things that we get shamed about quite a bit is, you know, how could you you have a doctorate? How could you possibly not know how to take a cup out of your room. And so to explain to someone that I don't perceive it to be physically there until there's 10 of them, is difficult to understand. So maybe we can talk during this time about some different ways for people to know, what are they looking at? Because it can be really, honestly, I've adopted in this and it's hard. Yeah.

  KC Davis 11:20

  And I think, you know, you can also get someone who is maybe socialized as a man. So they're struggling with that, you know, maybe their whole life, the household labor was kind of it was like, the tiny fairy came overnight, you know, we didn't recognize that our moms were doing these things, you know, we just woke up, and then the laundry was done, right. So you can have somebody who is in that bucket, married or partnering with someone who is neurodivergent. And that brings us the knot dynamic of okay, I know that I struggle, I know that I have some of these same patterns. But I really need to have this conversation with my partner about how I need more participation from them. But they don't feel like they can ask for that, because they have similar struggles. And it's just difficult to talk about a nuanced concept in such a way that you don't harm somebody because I don't want to talk about, I don't want to talk to the demographic of people who are struggling under an abusive partner, and someone who is married to someone with clinical depression. And ADHD hears that and goes home, and draws this ultimatum with their partner who is trying their hardest, but I don't want to talk about how neuro divergence is not a moral failing. And that, you know, we need to be patient and supportive, and that person who maybe they actually do have depression and ADHD, and they're also being abusive, goes home to their partner, go see, you're supposed to be kind and loving towards me.

  Lesley PsyD 12:49

  And it's so tricky. And this is why we have jobs, because it is very, very tricky. And I think one of the best ways to know like, as a first step, and in my opinion, and maybe you might have a different take on it is the response to the call for help. So when I as a partner, say to the person I'm with, I'm struggling, and I need to talk to you about how we're doing all of this, that just that identification of the challenge, the response that I get, is that first indicator of whether or not we're looking at something that is more of a manipulation, or is it something that is really in good faith, a challenge for us? So if someone comes back and says, okay, cool, we can sit down, that's fine. That's a good sign. That doesn't guarantee that something nefarious isn't happening, but it's certainly a positive indicator, what I find is in cases of true weaponized incompetence, where it's not related to neuro divergence, the initial response will not only be defensive, but sometimes it'll be very gaslighting, and very kind of rapidly turn that around, or you want to talk about me, well, here's a list of everything you've done that you're terrible at to, so that I think really pay attention to how your partner responds. Yeah,

  KC Davis 13:57

  yeah. And I would say that when someone is benefiting from the status quo, they're going to be a little resistant to it changing whether or not it's from a malicious standpoint, or just I mean, nobody wants to do more work works, not that fun. And so there's going to be some resistance, because if the status quo is serving a certain partner, and they are benefiting from the labor of their partner without having to put in effort themselves, but one huge red flag is that if that resistance, attacks, the dignity of the other person, when my partner brings things to me, and I think he's totally off base, this is an issue. You know, I'm never gonna respond with well, you're just lazy, or like there's never name calling.

  Lesley PsyD 14:47

  I think that concept of dignity and respecting the dignity of the person that's such a core tenant just to even step outside of this conversation for a split second for all of the interpersonal dynamics that we talk about in relationships, if your dignity is safe with your partner, that is an incredibly precious thing. And if your dignity is not safe, if you are concerned at any moment in time that this person may try to wound your very soul, that is a very strong indicator that something is not where it needs to be.

  KC Davis 15:21

  And can we talk about that for a second? Because I feel like it can be really helpful to give some examples, because I think if somebody is at home, and they're thinking about their partnership, and they're going, Okay, well, what does that mean? My dignity, like, what does that look like? If somebody is not respecting your dignity, and for me, name calling is a big one, like, being called lazy, being called Stupid, being called a bitch. I'm not saying that, you know, if your partner has ever said this, throw them in the trash, because certainly people have trauma and things like that. But that's one of those things where that's not ever acceptable. Like, I want everyone listening to not be in a position where they can be gaslight into thinking, well, this is just because of my behavior that is justifying those type of words are never justified in the angriest of conversations. Not saying that people don't make mistakes, not saying that sometimes we get angry and maybe lose control. But the response to getting angry and losing control and wounding your partner is always about face, I'm sorry, that's not acceptable, you know, timeout, type of behavior. So definitely, like,

  Lesley PsyD 16:29

  you know, the

  KC Davis 16:30

  reparative. And when you're talking about like, wounding their very soul, like I know, when I'm in an argument with someone, and I'm upset when I want to say something, just to hurt them, just to wound them, it doesn't get a point across. And sometimes that's my own trauma talking. But that would be another example. Like, I'm not respecting my partner's dignity, if I'm thinking, I'm going to twist the knife.

  Lesley PsyD 16:54

  Right, if the goal is to wound because I feel better when you hurt, that's a red flag, I can give you a very concrete example. Since we were talking about the cups in two different relationships. In my lifetime, I've had two very opposing responses to this, like disgusting cup debacle that I find myself in about once a month. I had a partner once who said, you know, this is now disgusting. And you are so lucky, you're with me, because no one else would tolerate you. You are such like a disaster. That kind of statement isn't functional, it's not and they don't have to be super supportive. If what I'm doing is overly gross. Like, it's gross, you're allowed to be upset as a partner. By the way, if there's gross cups, you're allowed to say That's gross, it's gross. In contrast to that, I've also had a partner say, I am overwhelmed with the room, I can no longer function this way on Saturday morning, would it be alright, if me and you set a time and together we took it all down? Because it has to leave the room. That is a way of saying the cups are gross. And I can't live like that as the non ADHD partner. However, I want to do something that's going to solve the problem, not just wound you.

  KC Davis 18:05

  Yeah. And that phrasing of no one else will love you. No one else will have you no one else. Well, that's a really abusive way of communicating. And it does. I'm not saying that anyone that communicates that way, is a malicious abuser. I'm saying that they have learned abusive communication. They're using abusive communication, because it is communicating this backhanded, I love you. But you should feel so grateful and beholden to me because you're actually so worthless, nobody else would love you. And I am deigning to be with you. So watch out, you don't have equal footing with me in this relationship. And that is not respecting someone's dignity.

  Lesley PsyD 18:48

  Yeah, I think this is probably one of the most important points we're gonna hit is that you can be manipulative or abusive without realizing it, because you've learned it. But that does not justify what's happening. Because I think a lot of especially the young folks, and if there are any younger folks, you know, late teens, early 20s, that are going to be listening. I get a lot of young folks in my office wondering about continuing relationships because the other person is not a monster. It's easier to leave a monster, right? It's not easy to set boundaries, or leave someone who is a really a good person in their heart but is hurting you. And it's incredibly important to remember that you are still allowed to set boundaries with people who are unintentionally hurting you. Absolutely.

  KC Davis 19:33

  I actually recently talked about this on my channel where sometimes when you're asking someone to change their behavior, they will deflect by saying Why are you always trying to change me? Why can't you just love me for who I am. And the response to that to sort of dodge that deflection is I do love you for who you are. I love you for who you are. But I'm in this relationship for what we have together. That's why I'm in the relationship with you. Because when you and I get together, there's this thing between us that we both have that we've made together. And I'm asking you to work on this thing together, I'm asking you to look at behaviors you have, that are damaging this relationship we have together because while my love may be unconditional, a relationship with me is not. And sometimes you have to choose to love someone without being in a relationship with them, because their behaviors are damaging to you. And you don't have to conclude that they're a monster to decide that their behaviors are damaging to you.

  Lesley PsyD 20:39

  And the relationship is the third person in the room or the third object in the room to so sometimes when I get that response in therapy from one part of a couple, they just want to change me, I will remind them that relationships are like houseplants that you're both taking care of, it's not about either gardener. If the house plant is dying, it does us no good to figure out who did what we have to look at the plant distance ourselves, look at the plant and see what is the plant need. So it might be true that I'm watering it correctly. But perhaps there's something happening in the soil, or we need to move the plant together to this other location. It's a little bit, you know, metaphorical for some people, but I think the idea is responding to your partner in good faith in a way that is aimed at solving the actual issue as much as possible, rather than finding who's to blame.

  KC Davis 21:31

  And I think when I'm thinking back to that the old school gender junk science about men and women are just so different. One of the things that I totally meant to say when we were talking about that is that that seems to only apply to household labor. Like I don't know of a man in there like a high powered corporate job, that's just like, Man, I'm just really suffering because I just don't see those expense reports. Like there's just all this minutia on my brain doesn't work that way, like somehow, they are able to get it together in these other areas. And I think that's also, you know, something to keep in mind. And it's not across the board, right, like this person is capable, because it is true that I also in my neuro divergence, and sometimes we are capable at work but struggle with things at home. And it's not really a matter of, Oh, do we excuse this behavior, because at the end of the day, if your home's not functional, it's not functional. It's not right, wrong, good or bad. It's not about anyone being a bad person, it just isn't functional, we have to solve the problem. And we can solve the problem without shame. And we can solve it creatively. And we can solve it collaboratively. And so to your point, what matters most is a partner's response to that invitation to address how functioning the home is, right? And so if the response to the address is, okay, what do we do? What could work? What could we try, I don't have to be good at taking the cups out of my room to be a good partner. But I do have to be willing to try very hard to figure out a way that I could make the cups functional for my partner.

  Lesley PsyD 23:13

  And the way that I've approached that with a supportive partner in the past has been to think about it almost like a contract, like the contract right now, as it exists is I don't really comment on the cups, because I know that that's hard for you, that does not seem to be working. So what if we renegotiated the contract to try a new set of terms, which is, if there's more than three, then I will set a time with you. And we will do it together? And then let's try that out. You don't have to have these big forever solutions. It's all about just that partnership. And I think another point to this point on the other side, is that when it is true, weaponized incompetence, often, the event of the weaponized incompetence doesn't occur right away. It's usually in response to some kind of limit or boundary setting. And then we suddenly see the wrong pod, or the coffee cups spilled. There's typically a flavor of I've resisted this boundary several times, and you're insisting, and so oops, look what I did. Oh, yes, you're gonna have to do it.

  KC Davis 24:16

  And I think you know, if the case is that somebody that you're with is struggling with functional barriers, the point of identifying, Oh, this isn't someone using weaponized incompetence. This is someone that has a legitimate barrier. I think sometimes when people talk about us saying, No, it's not weaponized incompetence, it's a it's a legitimate barrier. They get upset or defensive because they feel like what we're saying is, and therefore it's okay. It's acceptable. You should just be okay with it and live with it. But that's not what we're saying at all. All we're suggesting is that the approach needs to be different. We're not saying you have to live with moldy cups. What we're saying is, is that if you continue to come to Somebody who is having a functional barrier and going cod, likely the cups, I've told you a time. And you just, you decide that you just need to push harder. It's just recognizing that pushing harder on somebody with a functional barrier. And basically, saying, what you want them to do is just try harder pull themselves up by the bootstraps assert willpower, it's just recognizing that that's never going to be the answer for that person, they could want all day long to pick up the cups, and maybe they don't, maybe they're neurodivergent. And using weaponized incompetence, my husband doesn't get out of bed, well, let's, let's change it, my wife doesn't ever get out of bed. And so I'm having to wake up in the morning, and get our kids up and get them to school. And then I go to my job, and then I come home, and then I do all of the care tasks. And she stays in bed and watches TV all day. And this person is going, what am I dealing with? Am I married to someone who is lazy and just wants to watch TV all day? Am I married to someone who, you know, is depressed and really struggling with something. And we're not like, if we decide hit sounds like some severe depression, we're not saying so it's fine that she's in bed all day. And that's awesome. And let's just cosign and nothing needs to change. And you just have to live under this burden of not having a true partner. That's not what we're saying. We're saying that telling her to get out of bed every day or drawing ultimatums all day isn't going to suddenly give her better mental health.

  Lesley PsyD 26:31

  And let me speak very grandiosely on behalf of all ADHD ears for one moment, we don't want the cups there. We don't want the cups there. We want to go downstairs and all of our cups are happily living in their home clean as a whistle. And in terms of folks who have been depressed, we don't want to lay in bed, you know, when depression is the why we don't want it either. So it's not there really isn't a push and pull there to be had even though it can seem like that, that, Oh, you're saying it's fine. So just leave her alone? No, but what we know about neuro divergence and mental illness is that there are ways to help and motivating someone is not it.

  KC Davis 27:14

  And you can still have boundaries, right? Like, it's the difference between going to someone who you believe is using weaponized incompetence and saying, Listen, you cannot just leave, you know, your clothes on the floor like this, and then expect me to wash them. You know, we're partners, we both have jobs, like you need to change this, you can present that to someone who is using weaponized incompetence, and say, change it, Lady change it, but this is not okay. It just means that when you're drawing boundaries around issues of neurodivergent, it looks different. It's not you need to start getting out of bed, fix it, it's I'm really worried about you. I'm worried about your mental health, what can we do? Can we get you in to see a psychiatrist, I'm going to make the appointment, and you're going to go. And so when you start to hone in on the boundaries is if you don't go to this appointment, if you are unwilling to go to this appointment, then I think maybe we need to go to marriage counseling and talk about this. Because she may not or he may not have be able to use willpower to just stop being depressed. But we are capable attending an appointment, particularly if someone's taking us we are capable of saying, I'm going to do what it takes to change this. If somebody can help me find a way. And if you're getting into, you know, hey, I've made an appointment for you. Hey, I'll pick you up, hey, let's look for this together and you're still getting Oh, I just can't Oh, I'm not gonna they're not gonna like it. No, I don't want to, that's when as a therapist, I start to go okay, well, let's talk. Because what you don't want to do is be in a situation where you're over functioning for a person for a long period of time. And they are under functioning. And so when you start to steer someone towards how can we support this person, and this is why like, I hate that therapy is so expensive, but why it's so invaluable to have a therapist walk with you to say, Okay, here's ways that I can support this partner, right? Let's see if we can get them on some meds. Let's see if we can get them to an appointment. Let's see if we can have a routine in the morning that helps them get up. If we all get up together. It's when you start to see somebody with legitimate functional barriers, resist every attempt adequate support, that you start to go okay, at some point, you do have to make the decision that you're willing to work to get better.

  Lesley PsyD 29:41

  And the other partner is at some point, really justified to say whether or not something works for them. And that language I like in therapy a lot more than I need you to do this in order to make the home functional that will usually meet more resistance than one partner saying in terms of laundry See, what works for me is something in this domain and this over here, this would not work. So if it were to pile up to the point where I can't get in the room, I know for me that won't work. So we need to find a solution in terms of some a partner with severe depression, what won't work for me, if you are unwilling to let me assist you, and seek some kind of support, because I can't, as a partner in good faith, watch you lose this battle? You know, I want to be here to support you and help you. But it doesn't work for me if you're not able to do a little bit. Yeah. And it

  KC Davis 30:34

  goes the other way, too. Like, if I'm the partner who is neurodivergent, I can say, what doesn't work for me, is you insisting that everything has to be folded and put into separate closets. If that doesn't work for me, I can work on, you know, doing my own laundry and getting it into a clean basket and getting it somewhere where you're not tripping over it, or what doesn't work for me is you expecting the house to look like a museum at five o'clock every day when you get home. Like it's both ways like it's about functionality. And both partners might have to give up some of their preferences, but just looking at functionality. And I think this is also why the old school conversations about division of labor, where they tend to get tripped up, because old school conversations and current conversations, when partners try to talk about division of labor, they often come at it from the perspective of well, the work should be equal. And that's when you start to get into arguments about what that means. And when you brought up, you know, if you say I need more from you that you get defensive, I find that that's because when you use the concept that the work should be divided equally. And then I say to my partner, I need you to do more, what they hear is you're not doing enough, be great, because if I need you to do more, that must mean you're not doing enough. And then that's a direct attack on. I'm not good, I'm not doing well, I'm not pulling my load, I'm the one in the doghouse. And it gets into all sorts of problems about comparing apples to oranges, because unless you have the exact same role at the exact same job. How are you really going to compare who's working harder between a teacher and a bank teller or surgeon, a coal miner, or a stay at home parent and a banker.

  Lesley PsyD 32:29

  And it really doesn't also factor in emotional labor, which is something that is a part of weaponized incompetence as well you can weaponize your emotional labor, there are many parents who especially you know, I have three neurodivergent kids. And all three kids identify somewhere on the LGBT spectrum, there's a lot of emotional holding that goes into knowing how to meet all these kids needs. And not just going to like IEP meetings and physical labor, but knowing where they're at and understanding what supports they want. So that may not be something that's visible at 5pm. But I may be exhausted from doing this invisible labor all day.

  KC Davis 33:09

  And the other aspect of this conversation that we haven't talked about is that there are a lot of partners, where maybe one partner thinks that the issue is weaponized in competence, when actually the issue is maternal gatekeeping. So maternal gatekeeping ill, we'll try to define our terms. And the term the literal term is maternal gatekeeping. But it doesn't have to be gendered it just because of our society so often is the mother is this term that basically when a, a mother is used to doing the lion's share of the domestic care tasks or the childcare task, they are reluctant to let their partner do it, if their partner's going to do it differently. And I'm not talking about total incompetence, okay, so I'm not talking about, you know, I can't leave my child with their dad because I'll come home and the dad will be asleep upstairs and the toddler will be playing with knives downstairs and the back door will be open, right? That's different. I'm talking about, I can't leave them because I'll come home, and they would have eaten popcorn for dinner and be in their diaper. It's like, well, maybe

  Lesley PsyD 34:22

  Are you they sent them to school in an outfit that doesn't match is I've seen that multiple times.

  KC Davis 34:27

  Right? Like there's a difference between going back to her like doing the dishes weaponized incompetence, which is I'm gonna break a dish, there's gonna be so much water all over the place that I don't clean up. I'm going to put maybe a pan that I've been told a million times can't go in the dishwasher in there anyways, and then I'm gonna put the wrong soap in, right? Like that's weaponized, competent. There's a difference between that and you didn't load it right? The dishes have to be facing this way because when they face this way, you can get the maximum amount of dishes in there. What happens is that We really, we're so used to doing things. And sometimes the maternal gatekeeping creates the weaponized incompetence. Sometimes the weaponized incompetence creates the maternal gatekeeping, sometimes they're both present to a degree is I really think that things should be done the way I'm doing them. And I'm used to having full autonomy over this task. And I don't like when I have to share it, because all of a sudden, somebody else's standards have to be paid attention to and it's not done the way I like it. And it's not done the way I want it. And it's hard for me to let go. And whenever this comes up with, especially like moms of babies, I always remind them like, did you know how to take care of a baby when you first had one? Probably not? How did you learn? Oh, you had to do it every day? You had to do it every day. Okay, how many clock hours? Do you think it took you to feel competent at something like giving a bath, they'd say, Oh, gosh, I must have given 100 baths before I felt like, Oh, I've got this down. It's like, okay, so if you have a partner that because of their schedule only does bathtime once a week, it might take them several years to be as good at in quotation marks bathtime as you because they're just simply not doing it as often. And there's, they're also going to take them longer if you're standing behind them during that time going no, not that. So this soap Oh, that the waters a little high used to be a little lower right if we're constantly micromanaging, because as much as no partner wants to be in a position where their partner is treating them, like their parent, like their mom, like, oh, clean up after me, no partner wants to be treated like the child.

  Lesley PsyD 36:30

  And that's how you can get locked into these dynamics that are very difficult to shift where someone could slide into a more weaponized incompetence stance, that is actually partially a reaction to having very little power in terms of the dynamic, I think it also comes down to values and the fact that we're getting better, but we don't teach young couples to talk about their values in terms of their care tasks in their home and their childcare before you have kids, if possible, or shortly thereafter. Because there is a real argument to be made about what is more important, sending your kids to school looking put together or making sure that they had a peaceful morning, if you had to pick, you know, you may have two parents that pick the opposite, that don't value the same things. And that's not necessarily one partner not doing the right thing, it just may be that we never sat down to talk about that.

  KC Davis 37:26

  And I know that when I was challenged. So what I read about maternal gatekeeping was in a book that I read shortly after I gave birth called how not to hate your husband after kids. And it's by an author named jancy. Done. And it really challenged me because I think that when you feel as though you're wanting more from a partner, it can feel very powerless, because you can't change another person, there's a lot of ways that you can approach them to help be a catalyst for change. But the end of the day, you don't have control of someone's behavior. And often the more we try to control their behavior, the less successful it is. And it really challenged me that there were some things I might be doing that were standing in my own way. And one of the things that you were talking about about like, what's the goal here, it hit me, my husband and I were driving to a party. And I am very good at directions. And my husband is not. And I thought that there was a better way to go. And he thought that there was a better way to go. And there were different ways, right? And so we're kind of bickering over this. And I stopped for a minute and thought, what is really at stake here? Like, do I want to be there five minutes earlier and angry at each other? Or do I want to be there five minutes late, and having a pleasant time? And I really realized, like, five minutes doesn't matter. Now there are some circumstances in which I'd say no, you know, safety is non negotiable, or, you know, we're not gonna spank our kids. It's non negotiable. We're not, but it's like, really, somebody wants to take the longer way to the party, like is that something really that I need to be in control of, I'm not driving, who cares, we're going to get there like, and I think that, you know, unless you let someone do something badly, they're never going to get competent at it.

  Lesley PsyD 39:13

  And this really cycles back around to how these patterns of weaponized incompetence or the other versions of that can begin because you see this in parenting all the time. And I've been guilty of it with my own children, you know, cleaning the room. What's the goal? The goal is that by the time they're 18, they can keep their space reasonably neat, to an extent that they don't have a major life impact. If it gets a little dirty, right? By the time they're 18. Not today. He's 10. But today, can he put everything into a pile and separated into categories? Yes. But when I was young, that was definitely not what was taught to me. It was taught to me start doing it and then my grandmother would come in and say, Oh, well, this is not no, you know what, let me do it. I'll just do it. Just leave, just go, it's easier if I do it, it's easier if I take care of it, you just can't do it. And so it begins with, you know, teaching our children that that's, we don't look at the value, we look at whether or not we're able to do the thing. And that confuses our brains, I think for a really long time.

  KC Davis 40:16

  And I think what we're kind of touching on here is that I think there really is a split difference between weaponized incompetence, and learned helplessness, many of us experience learned helplessness where we were told we're not good at that task, or we would start the task and somebody would take the task over. And I mean, nobody likes to be doing something with somebody looking over their shoulder judging them. And so when you, when you have that learned helplessness, it can look like weaponized incompetence, because there's a lot of insecurity around not being feeling competent at that task. There's a lot of messaging around gender and house roles that surround that. And it's it's a slightly different beast than weaponized and competence. And I love the Laura, who does tick talks about division of labor, she often will say, like, when people will say, Well, he, but he just, you know, he does this, or he does that she's like, you've got to leave the house, go take a break. You gotta, you gotta like, as long as there's some basic standards of safety, and developmental appropriateness, he has some of that is man, where am I being too controlling or too rigid about the way things are done?

  Lesley PsyD 41:34

  And how might that be tied in with not in a blaming way, but how might that be tied in with this dynamic, like we said about the plant earlier, there's two people in the room, and then there's the plant we take care of. And the relationship is a different animal, the relationship isn't me, and it isn't my partner. It's what happens when me and my partner are together. And it will bring out different aspects, even things. And I see this all the time in therapy, parents engaging in a behavior with their partner, and their partner kind of calls them out and says, You're this is just like how you were raised? And they'll say, Oh, but I hated that. And then it kind of clicks like, Oh, it's so built into how we function. So I think that also circles us back around to how do I know how do I know whether this is weaponized incompetence, or whether it's learned helplessness or whether they're neurodivergent? Really, the first step is just to approach your partner in good faith, and open up a conversation about the fact that whatever's happening isn't working for you? And would they be interested in collaborating on something that would work better for both people, though, like, ideally, we want it to work for both.

  KC Davis 42:35

  And if you have someone that says, No, I'm not going to do that, you get to make a decision about that. And maybe you decide, you know, I'm gonna bring this back up in a couple of weeks, or I'm like, they're, I think even healthy couples sometimes have a circling theme that they just are kind of constantly disagreeing over. But there's a difference between, hey, this is our stuff point, this is our kind of dynamic that we find tension around that we have to address every so often. And this person is so benefited by the status quo and our relationship that they refuse to change. And that's a problem when the status quo is harming you. We don't want to be with someone who is willing to exploit someone. And that's really what I think is a more beneficial way of thinking about division of labor is not is the work equal, but is the rest fair, because someone who, you know, when we talk about, well, if someone's doing way more than someone else, that's not right. And it's like, well, but think about the amount of scenarios that could apply to because that could apply to the partner that comes home after working and they have a stay at home spouse and their parent, and they say, I'm going to kick my feet up and watch TV, and you bring me my dinner. And I'm not going to do anything else in this house because I bring home the paycheck. Meanwhile, their partner is basically working 24/7 running this household caring for these children, and maybe even has a little side gig, right. And that would be an example you could describe that as one person is doing so much more household labor than the other. And everybody would agree that's not right. That's not a situation that is fair to that one partner. But you could also have a partner that has a chronic illness, and or a partner that has a disability, or a partner that has cancer, where that partner, other partner is doing the majority of the labor. And it's not because that's unfair or wrong, that person with cancer or that person with a disability or chronic illness, or even mental health issues. They're not wrong or bad because they're legitimately not capable of carrying the same amount of labor as the other partner. And I think what's more helpful to look at instead of is the Work equal? Or, you know, is it divided fairly? I think it's, is there exploitation happening? Because if I believe that because I make the paycheck, I am more deserving of arrest and recreation and time autonomy than my partner. And because they don't bring home a paycheck, you know, they have to be the first and last line of defense on all things, child and home. And I sleep in on a Saturday and wake up and go hang out with my friends while they are at home, you know, cleaning and taking care of children and anything they have to do, they have to take children with them, because that's their job. That is me exploiting my partner, because I feel like I'm more deserving of freedom and rest and recreation because I make the paycheck. So if someone feels like they deserve more rest, or recreation or enjoyment in life, because they're better than they make more money, because a certain gender because they are, you know, whatever these qualities they think they have that's weaponized and competent. That's wrong. That's a moral problem. That's something that other partners shouldn't stand for. But if my husband gets into a car wreck tomorrow, and has mobility issues, and they can't work anymore, and I'm the one who is waking up early with our kids, and going to work and then coming home and and doing the bat, and I mean, I'm not he's not exploiting me.

  Lesley PsyD 46:25

  And you wouldn't say like, husband, this is not working for me, we need to divide this labor more equally. I mean, it's not it's not something we can do.

  KC Davis 46:34

  Yeah. Like not being able to do as much as someone else is not the same thing as exploiting. And accepting help is not the same thing as taking advantage of someone. So if I say to him, You know what, I don't mind doing this, that and the other for you. Because I know that we have different capacities you can you, I still love you. And you know, I want to be married to you. And I want us to be partners. And I think that the value of non exploitation is a better sort of generalizing quality, or value to look at in your relationship. I don't know, what are your thoughts on that?

  Lesley PsyD 47:07

  I think it's a better indicator to because sometimes we look for indicators that are concrete, do they mess up the task, and this is what I see on tick tock a lot on this topic of weaponized incompetence is, well, I gave him an ease in quotes, or she, I gave them an easy task. And they messed it up. I saw one where it was like the bathroom was cleaned in quotes, but there was a two pieces of trash on the ground. And like, look at this, no one in their right mind was the words they used, would look at this bathroom and think it's clean. I was like, well, then I'm not in my right mind, because I'm like two pieces of trash. That sounds great. So using those concrete indicators of are the cups in the room, is there trash on the ground, were the dishes done correctly, can be almost, I mean, misleading, and almost a futile effort. I think it's better to find indicators that are more consistent across situations. And non exploitation applies to all relationships of all constellations, even separated partners, right? Even co parents who are not in the same family. So you may have one, if kids live with a biological dad and mom is not living in the home and perhaps lives far away for work. And again, how are you going to divide up the labor related to children, that's it's not fair to do it fairly, it's going to have to be for what works. And as long as someone's not being exploited. That's a much better indicator. I'm a good example of like, I have chronic pain flares. And when I'm in a flare, it's possible that I'm gone all day, I do get home last in my house, and I will need to go straight up and have an hour long, hot bath. I'm not exploiting my partner because of that. I'm trying to be them functional for the rest of the night so they can be done.

  KC Davis 48:53

  And I see that even in my house. You know, my husband is a lawyer. He's a corporate attorney, and he's in his first couple years of his career, which means that when he is approaching a case, like a trial, he is working seven days a week, late at night. And he is you know, last night he called me at 1030 and said, I'm on my way home. I'm gonna bring some food Have you eaten? Can I bring you some food? I was like, Yeah, I'd love some food. He came home, we stayed up late watching a show together. I went to bed, he still needed another 30 minutes to unwind. And then he slept a little later than me this morning because he was up later and then he went to work. And so I in this little season am doing all of our care tasks in our house. But I'm not being exploited right like that. There's a difference between you know, he never comes home and goes I'm gonna go play golf. You do the laundry. I make them like and I love that you brought that up like you can always go on appearances. Right, who's doing What, who's doing how much more who's doing, you know, because it doesn't take into account people's physical, emotional and mental capacities, nor does it take in the 1000s of other dynamics that actually make equitable labor and rest work, which are things like respect and dignity, and care, it really does come down to like, I don't feel exploited. And if we ever get into a situation or a season where I feel, okay, I feel like I'm being taken advantage of, not because I believe my partner would ever want to do that. But because maybe we've gotten busy, there's maybe some blind spots, then, you know, I bring that up. And he does the same to me. And it's just a much you renegotiate the contract? Yeah, you got to renegotiate the house plan.

  Lesley PsyD 50:47

  And I think the other piece of this, too, is, and this is not accessible to every person, unfortunately, I wish it was, we are not socialized to think that it's okay to ask for help. So, in your situation, it's quite possible that you could hit a place where you're in burnout, and you you still can't ask him for any more, he doesn't have it available. And I think there's this shame and guilt associated with asking someone to come in and clean. I just had this discussion the other day, well, I guess I'm gonna have to hire a house cleaner just once a month, though, like not all the time, you know, I know better. But I still have that internalized feeling of I should be able to do all this on my own, you know, we don't utilize and this is, I think, also white supremacy as well. And this kind of individualism, the rugged individualism that's so toxic is, you know, the lack of access to our own communities. So why aren't we calling our friends that live close by and saying, Hey, my house is a disaster? Like, would you like to come over and help me clean it? Is that cool? I would totally respond to a friend that asked that. And yet, I would never ask it of a friend. Maybe I will now because we're talking about it?

  KC Davis 51:49

  Well, I always try to remember that, like, I feel it's much more comfortable for someone to be in your debt than it is for you to feel in someone else's debt. So like, when when a friend asks me for help, or even like a new friend or acquaintance, they asked me something that I know is vulnerable than to ask. I know, you know, I had an acquaintance that we were becoming pretty good friends, call me one day and say, Listen, I know this is a huge ask, but is there any way that I could drop my daughter off at your house today, she was studying to be a realtor. And this was when a lot of childcare was sort of falling through because of COVID. And I said, Yeah, bring her over, like she can hang out with my kids, they were already friends. She was like, thank you so much. And that wasn't uncomfortable for me, like it's comfortable to be the one to go, oh, let me help. It was uncomfortable for her to put herself out there and ask, but here's what happened. A month later, I got really sick, and I needed something. And I felt comfortable asking her for something that I never would have felt comfortable before. And so I always try to keep in mind, you're actually doing someone a favor when you ask them for help like that. Because they will be in a position at some point where they're going to need help. And they're going to feel like you too embarrassed to ask to burden to ask, and you might be the one person they feel comfortable asking for help. Because they don't feel that awkward debt exchange because they feel like Oh, I'm just, you know, we're paying it forward. We're this kind of friend. Now we this is the kind of things we do for each other. So I really, I've tried to think of it that way. Like when I asked for someone for help, I'm also doing something kind for them by opening up that aspect of our relationship, knowing that they will now feel comfortable doing the same for me and I'll be able to help them.

  Lesley PsyD 53:39

  And just breaking down this image that we've all built that things should be the way that they should be is to 1000 tiny steps to breaking that down. And that's one of the other ways to do that. And it's a wonderful example for children, when they see parents, exchanging labor and support and doing that in a way that focuses on making things functional. All of these things just flow downstream to children and help them create new norms. I was just gonna give an example from this morning, well, then you're better than me, I would lose it with my own child, my own teenager about to be 16. You know, I've been trying to get them to do their very minimal responsibilities in the house in terms of care tasks, because I want them to focus on learning them rather than doing this quantity. So they've each got three that they do during the week. One of them is like bring all the plates out of your room once a week, as my kids get older. And it hasn't been happening, to be honest. And I've tried all these different ways of teaching. And they've kind of pushed a little hard on the like, Oh, I've got so much homework and even though I've reduced the impact, and so I had to have a discussion with them this morning and I noticed that I was feeling punitive. Like look, I'm going to take your phone and so I had a little Casey in my head and I instead on the way to school was like look, the system that we're using isn't working For me, especially, but also for you, because I can see that what I'm doing isn't leading to increased skill for you, you're not actually showing me that you're benefiting from it. So tonight, we're going to sit down and we're going to talk about if you fulfilled these responsibilities consistently during the week, what would that look like? What would have to happen in your environment to make that pretty doable for you? And I saw the kid relax. And I think that that's kind of how we can approach these even when you think it's weaponized incompetence that can be the first way we approach it is, this isn't working for me, Can we sit down and figure out how to make it work?

  KC Davis 55:36

  I love that because I talk in my book about how I want my children. Yes, I want them to learn responsibility. But I don't want them to be slaves to this capitalistic hustle culture where they believe that their productivity is equal to their worth, that their worth is how much they're contributing. And I've thought about as a parent a lot about, well, how do I do both of those things at once. And I think hitting on that value of non exploitation is a huge part of it, like looking past compliance, and looking. So I'm not looking for behavioral compliance, I'm looking for value installation. And I want my kids to know that families, just like communities and society, have benefits and responsibilities. And if we're seeking to purposefully avoid the responsibilities while still taking advantage of the benefits, then that's going to exploit your family members. It's not the same thing as having a different capacity limit. It's not the same thing, as you know, being sick or needing help or just being different, or having a different capacity load than your other family members. And I think that's huge. Thinking about setting our kids up so that they don't struggle with things like weaponized incompetence, and learned helplessness, and you know, gatekeeping, and all these things that come up. So I want to wrap it up by just talking about some resources that might be helpful. So my book How to keep house while drowning, is available. I talk about this about there's a short chapter on division of labor, about non exploitation, the book that I suggested earlier, how not to hate your husband after kids by Gen Z done, I think II broadsky has a helpful book fair play that gets more into sort of tasks division, but can be a helpful resource as well. Leslie, is there anything that you would recommend? Yeah, there's

  Lesley PsyD 57:36

  a couple of books that I really like two of them relate to kids and one relates to ADHD, but they all kind of fit in. One of them is the sensory child gets organized. It's a it's a book, I can't remember the author. I'm so sorry. But it's a book about really creative ways to look at neuro divergent organization structured cleaning, not even really cleaning, but really organization like how to improve the space for a neurodivergent child. Another one is called Ready for takeoff. And that is a book for written for parents of ADHD kids, all about how to break down these care tasks and teach them in a systematic way that removes guilt and shame, and gets them really ready for takeoff in an individualized way. And then the other one that I would recommend that I recommend constantly and if I ever get to speak to this author, I might pass away. It's called a radical guide for women with ADHD. Now, I want you know, people hold the idea of women here very, very loosely because it's important to the book in that it talks about the difference in experience for people socialized as women early and how putting all of that ADHD all those traits in this covered box can look like things like weaponized incompetence, and how others in our lives could understand us a little bit better to see how they can be of assistance and it also helps women with ADHD break down this internal stigma, and find creative ways to overcome some of those challenges. Those are some of my favorites.

  KC Davis 59:06

  Awesome. Thank you so much. And lovely. It's been a pleasure as always, you as

  Lesley PsyD 59:10

  well. I hope everyone buys your book.

  KC Davis 59:12

  Thank you. So you guys, check us out on Tik Tok at domestic busters. Lesley want to tell them one more time where you are on Tik Tok?

  Lesley PsyD 59:19

  Yep, I’m @lesleyPsyD

  KC Davis 59:24

  and you can also check out more resources on my website struggle care.com