29: How to Get Dope Therapy with Shani Tran

Getting therapy and finding the right therapist is super intimidating! Most people aren’t even sure how to begin the process. Besides the fear and stigma associated with seeking help for mental health, therapy can be scary when you don’t know what to expect. One of my friends from TikTok has written a book with tons of practical information and advice about the basics of therapy. Join us to learn more!

Shani Tran is a licensed therapist in Minnesota and Arizona. She wrote the book, Dope Therapy: A Radical Guide to Owning Your Therapy, to validate the anxiety that can arise around seeking counseling. Through her book, she offers guidance for navigating the uncomfortable conversations that can come up in therapy. In her professional work and on TikTok, Shani focuses on education around cultural humility and helping people of color, who have historically been underserved by the mental health community. 

Show Highlights:

• Why Shani wanted to write her book to make the therapy process less intimidating

• How Shani’s book breaks down the therapy process, including all the financial information that people need to know

• Why it is important to be direct in your questions to a therapist

• How to reframe your thinking around, “Therapy didn’t work for me.”

• Why it’s OK to tell your therapist how you really feel (they WANT you to advocate for yourself!)

• Shani’s advice about firing a therapist (Hint: Ghosting them is OK!)

• Why the therapy room is a great place to practice new communication skills in a safe place

• Why your relationship with your therapist is different from every other human relationship

• How teletherapy brings new elements to the therapy process to improve accessibility

• Why Shani wants to be noticed for her diverse skills as a clinician and not just her work with the BIPOC community

• The difference in cultural competency and cultural humility

 Resources:

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

Connect with Shani: Dope Therapy book (also available at other booksellers), TikTok, and Instagram

Mentioned by Shani: The Gift of Therapy by Irvin D. Yalom

Connect with KC: TikTok, Instagram, and Website 

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

• Transcript:

  Unknown Speaker 0:00

  Oh

  KC Davis 0:05

  hello you sentient balls of stardust. This is Struggle Care, the podcast about how to get dope therapy at least that's the episode that we're doing today. I have Shani, with me. And she and I know each other from Tik Tok. And then we you tell us what your qualifications are? Because I don't actually know them off the top my head?

  Shani Tran 0:21

  Oh, yes. So I am a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor in Minnesota. And then I'm a licensed professional cancer in Arizona, same thing, just different letters behind the name. I don't know why every state, they just can't get on the same page. But basically, I have a master's and I am qualified to do therapy.

  KC Davis 0:40

  Excellent. Yeah, I know. In Texas, we call them LPCs. So I never know what to call anybody. And I am chronically underprepared to interview people on my podcast. So thank you for being here. So you wrote a book called How to Get dope therapy. And let me just say off the bat, the thing that I love about your book is how practical it is. Like you spend a good part of the book just explaining the basics. What is a copay? Where can you go to search for therapists? What types of therapy? What do they mean? And I feel like as therapists, we take for granted that people don't know the basics. And

  Shani Tran 1:17

  you know, it's funny that you say that, because if I'm being honest, when I actually had to condense that chapter down, that's chapter two, I had several people read it, and they were like, This is so much information. And I was like, I know what I feel like people need to know this. And it really comes from people coming into my practice working with me, and then me having to explain deductible and then being like, Wait, what are you talking about? I pay my insurance monthly. What do you mean, I now have this bill that's like, 130, I don't understand. And so I was like, I cannot write this book, and not go in depth about what a copay is, what a deductible is how that changes yearly, it starts over yearly, because I feel like I would be doing people a disservice. And then I was like, I can't put this chapter at the back of the book, if people can just get through this chapter. It's so good. Like, I know, it's so much like business and like money, but I'm like, I just need you to get to chapter two.

  KC Davis 2:18

  Well, I think about so many things that can prevent someone from going to therapy, and I am someone who like my whole life, I am chronically insecure about things that I don't already know how to do. Like, if I don't know how a workout class works, like simple stuff. Like I don't know what I'm supposed to do after I walk in. I don't know what I'm supposed to bring. I don't know exactly what everyone's gonna be wearing. I don't know if I'm supposed to wait over here over there. Like, it gives me so much anxiety. I just won't go unless I can bring somebody with me.

  Shani Tran 2:48

  Yeah. And I think that that's important to recognize is because especially if you're someone that is actually no, I want to say I was about to say if you're someone that's going to therapy for the first time, but then I'm like, no, because you can go to a different therapist, and it'd be completely different. So I mean, it can be this anxiety provoking thing, because you're about to be vulnerable, you're about to like lay all your shit on the table. And hopefully this person in front of you creates a safe place. That's so scary.

  KC Davis 3:17

  So when I was in college, I got a theater degree. And in your like, senior class, you had to take this one class, I don't remember the name of it. But it was famous because it had this thing called the wildness project, where you were encouraged to go do something absolutely wild, and then write about it. And it was kind of this idea that like as an actor, you need to be able to sort of get beyond yourself. So all of my I mean, you know, theater students, like we're all so depraved anyways. And so the kinds of things that people would do for this wildness project is like, they go take mushrooms, or they go skydiving, or they would go sit for like a nude art drawing, or they do have an origin. And he had specific rules that like it does not matter. I don't care if it's illegal, I don't care if it's unethical, like go do something, just wild. And so what was funny is like I show up at this point in my life, I've been sober several years. And I'm thinking those things aren't actually wild. For me, I've done most of things. And what I ended up doing for my wildness project was going to a ballet class. And the reason that that was so wild for me is because I always wanted to do ballet, but I hated the fact that I was like 21 and didn't know how to do it. And I felt like I didn't know enough about like, am I gonna be in a class with little kids? Am I gonna look stupid because I don't know how to do it and like, I just won't do things like that if I don't already know how to do them. I don't and so I signed up and I made myself go and I went to several of them and that was my wildness project of like pushing myself beyond my limits. But anyways, it just reminded me of that because I feel like a lot of people are in that boat like they don't want to go to a therapist because they don't understand what it's going to Do you like? And I feel like you lay that out so well in your book?

  Shani Tran 5:04

  Yes. Thank you so much. I wanted to comment, I love that you sort of said that because I think that we, as a society sort of see wild as like drinking and like drugs and like doing these things that could lead to death, like skydiving. And no, my wild is like, being in a ballet class. Because wild essentially is mean, like, unknown. You can do anything wild. If it's unknown to you.

  KC Davis 5:34

  Yeah, and wild is vulnerable. Exactly. I love it so much. Thank you. So what made you want to write a book like this?

  Shani Tran 5:42

  Okay, I'm gonna have to be honest, because I'm trying to think Has anyone asked me this question yet? Okay. So, honestly, I was approached by the publisher, and they were like, Hey, have you ever thought about writing a book? And I was like, yeah, definitely about myself. And so the publisher was like, oh, okay, what about anything else? And I was like, Oh, well, I don't know. And they were like, think about what you do? Well, like, think about what you do well, and I was like, Okay, so like, I literally took like, two weeks. And I remember, I was so nervous the entire time, because getting a book deal has been on like one of my dream, like vision boards. And I was like, I can't screw this up. And I was like, What do I do really well. And I was like, oh, therapy. That's what I do really well. And then I was like, How can I write a book that is unlike any other, like, literally going, diving into the things that I'm not going to lie, some of the things that I wrote in the book, I was very nervous about writing, specifically, the business chapter about co pays and deductibles. Because I don't think that that's often talked about. And what made me fearful of writing about it is I was like, what if I don't know, some insurance company is like, you can't write about this, we have to, like, Take this, but you can't put this information, you know, because knowledge is power. Right? And so I just was really like, I want people to know, as much as they possibly can to be able to make an informed decision about stepping into therapy, and what that looks like,

  KC Davis 7:21

  I love that. And that's only a part of the book is like the business II stuff. The rest of it is like how to get the most out of your therapy journey. And I really appreciate this a couple of years ago, I had someone asked me, How do I find a therapist, and I did like a series of tiktoks, that would like broke it down to like, okay, here are some places you can go in search, here's how you look it up on your insurance. But then the most important thing that took people by surprise was talking about how, for the most part, now, there are definitely people in circumstances where they don't have a choice about what therapist they're seeing. But when you have that choice, recognizing that they might be the expert, but those first sessions are to like you are interviewing them, you are seeing if they're a good fit for you. And people have never heard anyone talk about here are the questions you can ask because there's nothing worse than getting several sessions or several months in with a therapist, and realizing, Oh, this is not the person for me.

  Shani Tran 8:16

  Yes. And I provide a list in the book, there's a list in the book to talk about, like finances. Like I don't think people think to ask the question, okay, I might be coming to you using insurance. But if I lose my job, people don't often think of the financial questions to ask a therapist, for instance, I might be coming to you right now. And I have insurance. But what happens if I lose my job? What happens with us? What does that look like? Do you have a payment plan? What is your self pay fee? If I can't pay that, because I'm in the middle of losing a job? Will you help me look for insurance? That's something that I actually do as a therapist, where if a client loses their job, I'm like, Hey, let's get you on state insurance. You know, you can qualify for that. Now, let me show you how here are the websites. Sometimes I may even do where we sort of have video. And then I share my screen. And I'm like, if you're comfortable giving me your information, I will fill it out for you. People don't think to ask those questions. Because if you lose your job, you lose insurance. And that disrupts the therapy process.

  KC Davis 9:19

  Yeah. And it's good to know ahead of time, whether you have someone and sometimes it's not personal, it might be someone who they're running a private practice, and they just can't afford to do six free sessions. But knowing ahead of time, man, I could probably give you a session to close us out and then refer you to somebody else. Or hey, my sliding scale is full right now. All those sort of things are really important. I always like to ask therapists, when you are looking for a therapist for you personally, what are some of the questions that you ask? Oh, that's a

  Unknown Speaker 9:49

  good one, man. I gotta update my book.

  Shani Tran 9:53

  That's a really good one. If I wouldn't answer that question as a therapist, I think it depends on what I'm going for. So, I talked about my experience when I lost my dog. I mean, you had the pandemic going on. And I remember saying, You know what, I can handle all of this, just don't take my dog. And I lost my dog, the end of 2020. And I had never, this was my first dog. I had never, like put a dog down before it. They don't tell you what that process is like, let me tell you. And so I remember I was like, Okay, I'm not okay, I need to go see a therapist. Now, for me as a person. I've always worked well with sort of like, tell me Stern, you know, that's just how my brain has worked. And then I realized, I was like, Johnny, do you want that while you're grieving? Do you want someone who's stern while you're grieving? I was like, Oh, shit, no. And so for me, and looking for someone that could help me I was like, I actually don't want to feel like I'm working with a therapist, I want to feel like I know a person. And so it actually helped me choose my therapist was I remember in her profile, she mentioned that she loves running, and she was Hufflepuff. And I was like, sold. Sold, I'm sold there. And then I remember going in and seeing her for the first session. And one of the things that I asked her is, it was during the time we were starting, because by the time that I saw therapists, it was around the time of the election. So a question at the time, for me that was important as a black person was, who did you vote for? And I remember feeling scared as hell to ask such a personal question. But at that time, that's what I needed. I needed to feel safe as a black person. And my sessions, and I remember my therapist responding with, well, depending upon how I answered that question, what is it that you're trying to get at? And that's what helped me say, I need to feel safe in this room as a black person. And then I remember, she told me and I was like, okay, okay, actually, what I meant to say was, did you vote for Trump? But I think I asked it a roundabout way, because she was like, she didn't vote for Trump. And I was like, oh, so I immediately recognized, sometimes we ask questions, and we aren't direct, but we know what the answer is that we're looking for. So I learned something through that process. She gave you

  KC Davis 12:05

  such a good therapist answer of like getting curious about what was going on internally with you and wanting to know that, I love that. It's also like one of the first therapist hacks I was ever taught was like, if somebody asks you a direct question, particularly if it's like a challenging one, or one that makes you have some feelings to like, lean into, let's get this communication more direct, like, what are you feeling? What are you worried about? What fears do you have about how I might answer this question? And when that's done genuinely, it doesn't feel like they're like dodging the question, because they do eventually give you the answer. Oh, my

  Shani Tran 12:34

  God. Yeah. And she did. I feel like in school, I really wish they would teach therapists not to dodge answers. Like, I get that it's not about us. But I feel like if a client is genuinely asking you a question, and diving deep and figuring out what are you trying to get out is very important and not dodging the answer.

  KC Davis 12:53

  Yeah, I think one of the things that can be really difficult about sort of interviewing a therapist is figuring out what their biases may be knowing that they're not going to be able to directly tell you that. Yeah, I know what I mean. And so you kind of have to know what to ask. I know that one of my big ones was because I like I went to seminary, that's where I got my counseling degree. I'm not evangelical or conservative, I don't even go to church anymore. But I still consider myself as like, a scribing, to that faith. And so I didn't mind if my therapist was a person of faith. But I needed to know how that was going to impact the way they did therapy with me. And so I found that the question that really helped was, like, I'd say, like, this is what I'm struggling with. And I would say to them, Do you believe that this is a problem that can be resolved outside of issues of faith? Or do you believe that ultimately, I cannot fully recover from this unless there's faith involved? I love that. And, and most counselors will be honest with you, like they'll say, You know what, at the end of the day, when I'm looking at this, I think there's a lot of progress we can make. But at the end of the day, I kind of believe XYZ, or they'll say, like, No, I think we can go this entire process, you know, you can get better. And so it's kind of hard to suss out those internal biases, I think. But it's important, because you don't want to be six months in with somebody before they walked out on you.

  Shani Tran 14:20

  Now you do not. And that can be challenging, too. Because sometimes I feel like when people have negative experience with therapy, it may not be the therapy itself, but the person that was performing the therapy. And so then we sort of take this like, oh, therapy doesn't work when it's like, no, therapy doesn't work with that person or so people are some different. There's so many options out there for therapy, that if it doesn't work for that person, try finding someone else try and then reflect why didn't it work? Was it something they said? Was it how you felt in the session? There's so many different things As to that can lead to why therapy didn't work.

  KC Davis 15:02

  And this brings up another sort of question common I want to bring up, but I'm gonna pause this for a second. And we'll be back after the break. Okay, we're back with Shani, who wrote how to get dope therapy. And I think that it brings up this really interesting like your book fills a really important gap, which is that I think as therapists, we don't talk to clients enough about the therapy process, we don't teach them how to be a participant in therapy. They're just supposed to kind of passively show up and talk about whatever and will steer the ship. But I find that when I bring up things like ask them, what they think about faith, ask them if they've ever worked with this issue before, ask them what would happen if this especially if you bring up they'll say like, Well, I really hate that my therapist did XYZ. And if you say like, Well, did you talk to them about that? Yes. They're like, Well, I'm allowed to do that. It's like that is a therapists failure. If they did not make you understand that you are allowed to push back, you are allowed to ask questions you are allowed to, and this is what's so sad. And I feel like you will totally agree with me is that the heart of the therapy process is not I'll talk about my problems and get advice. It's I'll experience a relationship, we'll all learn to tolerate that sort of rupture and repair.

  Shani Tran 16:20

  Yes. Oh, I completely agree with you wholeheartedly. I mean, I can think of moments throughout the moments that I reflect on, I feel like as a therapist the most when I'm learning to be, as I say, I'm on this continuum of learning to be a therapist, because life is always transitioning, where there was a rupture in my early career days, and I didn't repair it, like those are the moments that I reflect on. And so now when I am working with clients, let's say if for some reason I say like, here's the homework this week, and they're like, Sure, I'm like, do you agree with that? And they're like, I mean, it sounds No, no. Do you agree with the homework? What do you think about the homework? Let me tell you why I'm assigning this homework. Let me tell you why I think this will be beneficial to your process. And I've had clients that are like, actually, I don't really agree with it. I'm like, Cool. Let's talk about why you don't agree with it. Let's talk about what you think might be helpful. I love when clients tell me how they feel. Because I'm like, yes, they're learning how to

  KC Davis 17:25

  advocate for themselves. That's the real work sometimes that's the real word and how

  Shani Tran 17:31

  to, because if I'm being honest, I think that some clients view me as like an authority figure, right? And so being able to challenge that, I love it so much, because as kids, you know, for me, you know, you don't say why you just sort of do what parents say they're the authority, and then that leads in adulthood to not speaking up in meetings, not advocating for PTO. So I love it when a client is like, no, actually, I don't like that great, tell me, because I can't be wrong. I'm just taking an information that you're giving me I can be wrong, your therapist can be wrong.

  KC Davis 18:06

  And I do think that sometimes, you know, I agree with you. It's like, it's not the therapy that didn't work, it was the therapist, that didn't work. And sometimes that therapist wouldn't have worked for you no matter what. But I also know that as a therapist, I'm capable of being more than one way with a client, like, I can be direct, and kind of, you know, I'm that person that you want to have those come to Jesus meetings with, you know, I can do that. But I can also not do that. Like, I also know how to be a therapist that is more a little more passive, a little more curious, a little more soft. And we do the best we can to sort of Intuit what that person needs. But we don't always get it right. And so it's totally okay for a client to say to me, you know, I don't actually like that you are meet you kind of ask challenging questions. I don't like that you interrupt. I don't like that. You always prescribe homework, right? Whatever it is. I remember having to tell a therapist recently, she was working from an act perspective. So it's Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and therapy. Yeah. And a lot of what goes on to that as talking about, like, our expectations, and those sorts of things. I won't go into the whole thing. But she kept talking, I was having some struggles. And she was talking to me about like, well, what are your expectations there? What are your expectations there? And it was really bothering me like I was getting irritated. And it took a couple of sessions for me to sort of identify and bring up to her. Can I talk about the word expectations? And she was like, Sure, I said, it really bothers me when you say that. She was like, okay, and she like got that look, but I know what just like, Oh, I'm so excited, like this is the real work. And I shared with her like I grew up in a really really cultish 12 Step environment for about seven years. And part of what they would talk about is how like, you know, your resentments or just unmet expectations and expectations or just pre resentments and how, like, any time I had a legitimate grievance about the way I was treated, People use expectations like as a weapon of like, Well, did you expect to be treated a certain way? Well, that's on you for your expectations. And I just kind of got gaslit with that concept. And I realized that the reason I really was disliking the approach he was using with me is because not because there's anything wrong with her or with that concept, but because I was feeling that sort of resurgence of my own sort of like triggers around that. And she heard that and was like, That makes perfect sense. And then at like, do you want to talk more about that experience. And then she was able to use different language, she was able to explain it more what she means when she says expectations, and that's not her intention. And she was able to be way more validating because she realized, oh, Casey needs her reality validated heavily. Before we walk into a let's look at what we can control in the situation.

  Shani Tran 20:52

  Yeah. And I think that that's important, too, because I think of it Yalom I don't know if you've ever read the gift of therapy? Oh, it's such a good book. And it's, it's,

  Unknown Speaker 21:04

  I think it's yellow. Oh, my God,

  Shani Tran 21:06

  I might get this wrong. Okay. So in it, he says, the therapist has many clients, but the client only has one therapists. And I think that that is so true. And I often try to recognize like, maybe this is I feel like I've had comments on my tic TOCs, where people are like, what is it about theater and therapists, like there's so many therapists that have been involved in theater. And I think that this is a great example, where theater was my first major, let me say that right now, I am multifaceted in that I can switch it up to my style can be switched up to meet the client's needs. So there are some clients that, you know, I might say, like, how are you doing? And as a formality, they might say, Well, how was your weekend? And I can totally tell that they don't want to know how my weekend is. They're just doing a formality. But there are some clients that are like, how was your weekend? And I can totally tell, they're like, no, please tell me how was it? I'm like, oh, yeah, chill with my kids. And I'm like, okay, great. And then they sort of want to get started. So I can be what the client needs. However, this is recognizing as a therapist, when I am out of my scope of practice, when maybe I recognize for instance, if a client may need EMDR. So I'm explicit and telling them, hey, I want to let you know, I've recognized as a different type of therapy that might be needed here. But don't worry, I can still work with you on some things. But I do think that this is coming up a lot, that I would recommend a different type of therapist, and I will help them find that type of therapist. So it's a juggling act. And I love it so much. Because maybe for me, as a therapist, I just don't want therapy to be so blah, you know, sort of like the person sitting in a couch. No, I've had where I've gotten up and danced with clients. What do you mean, in this moment, we've done puzzles, we've done games, I would love to actually go hiking with clients. But it's definitely something that the client only has one therapist,

  KC Davis 23:03

  I worked with a couples counselor way, way while back. But he was one of the best counselors I've ever worked with. And one of the things he did before he would even see us was, first of all, I want to normalize couples counseling for everyone, it can be so life changing with a good therapist, and you do not have to wait until your marriage is like on the rocks are in trouble, like this should be one of your first lines of defense, if it's in your budget, when you come to that sort of like this is something we can't get past. Because what I find is that the thing you can't get past is the thing you're never going to get past in your whole marriage. Like you don't go to therapy to learn how to get past that issue. You go to therapy to learn how to stay in a loving, respectful dialogue with someone and make a livable life with someone that you love knowing that this might be the issue that kind of comes up for us over and over. Like how do we learn how to do this in a way that doesn't erode our relationship over time anyways, but one of the things that I think made him so good was that he sat me down and was like, I have some questions to ask about. And because I was a therapist, he was kind of direct with me about like, where you feel some of these issues were coming from and basically what it amounted to was, he was trying to discern if any of our issues were trauma related, like, you know, a sexual trauma or domestic and he basically said I have an approach, and it's super efficient and successful, but it is outside of my scope to work with someone who has like certain types of trauma. This approach will not be helpful if someone has this certain types of trauma. And I so appreciate and respect to that he understood his scope of practice. He was proactively trying to make sure that he was going to be the best therapist for us. And I think a good therapist will always be open to being pushed back on to you asking questions. We'll be asking their own questions. I want to pause right here because I have another subject I want to get into after the break. Okay, we're back from the break. And I have well, it's really two questions. Well, it's a question and a comment. The first one is, this is like one of the number one questions that come up on my page is how do you fire a therapist?

  Shani Tran 25:17

  Oh, okay. Let me give you all the details. Okay, the first thing I want to do, first thing I want to say is, why do you want to fire therapists? I know that's not answering the question right away. But I really want people to reflect on why you want to fire the therapist, after you figure out why it is that you want to fire the therapist asking yourself, Is this something that I can talk about with the therapists why I want to let them go after you figure that out? And you're like, Okay, nope, I don't want to talk to my therapist about it. I don't want I just want to fire them.

  KC Davis 25:46

  You can ghost Thank you. That's my answer.

  Shani Tran 25:49

  I know that like ghosting has like a sort of, like, negative connotation to it and sort of like relationships. But those are different than a therapist relationship. And I say that ghosting is okay, because maybe something happened in the session that you feel as a person cannot be repaired. And that is absolutely. Okay. I also want to say, it is okay that if you go see a therapist, and later on, you're like, Oh, I think I might want to go back. Please do not feel any shame. With reaching back

  KC Davis 26:23

  out. I have never had hard feelings about never,

  Shani Tran 26:25

  I have never I'm like, Oh my God. What happened? What's the team? Where have you been? wasn't something I did, like. So it's okay to do that. I just want to normalize that. That's okay. The other ways to do it is if you feel like it's something you're like, I want to let them know, I kind of want to talk about it. But I don't really want to do it in the session, you can email them. I did that. I tried to fire my therapist, I emailed her. And long story short, it had to do with her scheduling. She wasn't the type of therapist that you get on the schedule. And then it's sort of like a rotating schedule. You're always on the schedule every Tuesday at 2pm. And when I had asked her in the session, I was like, Yeah, I'll just take every Tuesday at 2pm, I saw her face change. And she just had never been put in that position. And so I was like, Oh, what is it about me getting on your schedule that your face change, and I. And so like, I sent her emails like, Hey, I don't think we should work together. And then my therapist, because this was like our second meeting, she then called me and was like, Hey, I'm gonna give you a free session. So we can talk about this, because I want to explain what happened. And I'm sorry that you felt that way. So knowing that email is acceptable, and that's okay. The other way that you can do it is if you want to call them or you can do it in the session, or texting, I don't know if some therapists do texting. But that is an option as well. And also knowing to, let's say, if you feel like you're someone that needs emotional support, it's okay to bring someone to the session with you for support to talk about that. I just want to like, I don't think people think about that, like, Hey, I might need my support person here, you can do that.

  KC Davis 28:07

  I love that answer. That is exactly the answer I give I say that, like, if it's the difference between you, like continuing to go to therapy that's not working for you. And getting a therapist that does work for you just ghost them. And then I think just like what you said, recognize that if you are ready, if you're in that place, being able to communicate to them can like that you want to sort of wrap up the relationship, it can be such an incredible opportunity to practice those skills in a safe space. Right like a most of us need to practice those skills of sort of, you know, distress tolerance and being okay in conflict and standing up for ourselves and advocating and, you know, we don't want to walk away and feel shame about it. Like that is one of actually the perfect places to do that. Because it's a relatively safe, even if your therapist has a reaction that you don't like, chances are, it's not going to be some sort of totally off the wall unsafe reaction. And it's just such an invaluable moment to practice those skills. And so I encourage people to look at it that way. And then say, but if you're not in that place, if doing that is going to be what stands in the way of you going and getting therapy that works for you just goes to them. I also say like you can just go get your new therapist and then work with your new therapist about how to talk to your old therapist.

  Shani Tran 29:30

  Yeah, that's totally valid too. I mean, there's so many different things that you can do when it comes to finding a therapist. But one thing that I do want to say is that you might have unhealthy relationships with people but the relationship with your therapist that is supposed to be healthy. So if there's anything in that relationship that is unhealthy, figuring out what made it unhealthy, and if it has to do with the therapist, then it's okay to go stem but knowing that I want to say that the relationship with your therapists, it's supposed to be healthy.

  KC Davis 30:01

  Yes. And it's supposed to be explicit. That's one of the like, going back to like, we don't do a good enough job teaching clients what therapy is supposed to look like. Most relationships are not explicit, like, if you and I were to become really good friends, and we were to go to lunch sometime. And if something were to happen, where one of us felt some type of way, like, we would probably bring that up, be like, I felt some type of way, when you did this, can I check in? I felt awkward about it, or what were you thinking, and like, that would be really comfortable. I mean, it's not a comfortable situation. But we could both really tolerate that. I even did a recording with another therapist who we had, like, disagreed about something online. And we had this conversation about what did you feel when you saw my messages? Well, I felt angry. Well, I felt annoyed. Well, what I felt was, and we were able to talk about that sort of thing, in the confines of sort of still extending respect to each other. So like, that's totally normal for us. And I don't think we do a good enough job of explaining to clients like, that's how your relationship with your therapist should be, like, you shouldn't be having this. Like, I kind of thought she said this, or I kind of didn't like that, like, she's the person that you go, or she or he or they, they're the person that you go to, to go, I was talking to my mom, and I kind of thought she said a certain way, like that's that person to make everything explicit to say, I'm so nervous to say this, I'll never forget, talking to a therapist, I was made to go to therapy when I was in therapy school, did you want to do that too?

  Shani Tran 31:34

  You know, it's funny, I did not have to do that. But we had a class. So it was group therapy. And I remember the, the way that the professor taught the class was like an interpersonal relationship, it felt like therapy, because I remember, like, I was like, every time I leave that class, I was like, Oh, this, so we had to do group therapy for the class, and the professor would call you out on your bullshit. weren't being real within the group. And she called me out a few times. And I was just like, I remember I was like, I'm gonna fail this class.

  KC Davis 32:08

  Well, they made us go to six sessions. And I didn't really need therapy at the time, and I didn't want to pay for it. So I just went for someone on my insurance, just someone off the list. She was not very good, bless her heart. But at one point in the session, I was talking about, like a really important relationship in my life. Remember, it was like a best friend or something. And they were like, Hmm, sounds like and then they made a comment about my friend. And she was attempting to, like, validate me be on my side. But I didn't like the words that she used. And I didn't say anything at the time. But when I came back, and I remember having this perspective of this is not really a great therapist, I'm not getting a lot out of it. But you know what, I'm going to take this opportunity to, like, do this slightly uncomfortable thing, because that'll be good for me. And I remember saying, Hey, I wanted to bring up that in the last session when I was talking about my friend, like getting into an argument. And you made that comment that my friend was, you know, I don't remember what it was. I said, that really made me uncomfortable. I felt in that moment, defensive of my friend. And she was totally receptive. She was like, interesting. She was like, Well, I think sometimes. And she gave what, oddly was some pretty insightful feedback about some I don't even remember the feedback now. But it was something helpful about, you know, we can be angry with someone, and sort of possessive of them at the same time. And it can be really difficult to navigate relationships where you feel like you have to protect everyone. Yeah. And I remember being like taking,

  Shani Tran 33:37

  I mean, it feels that way. Because if you think about it, it essentially, like you're telling the therapist what's happening, it's like, but you don't know my friend, you to call my friend out. It's kind of like, I feel like the protective relationship where it's like, only I can make fun of them. You cannot. So if I'm coming to you, you laugh, that's all you do. It can feel very, like protective and defensive. But knowing too, that the relationship with the therapist is not quid pro quo. They're not your friend. It's one of the few relationships in your entire life where you get to take take, take take, take, take take, take as much as you need, take as much as you need, and not expect anything in return. Not Oh, is it okay that I use that word? Is there a different word that you would like me to use instead of expect?

  KC Davis 34:24

  No, you're fine. I'm great with expect in this context,

  Shani Tran 34:29

  okay. I just wanted to make sure that's the one relationship where take all you need. Go ahead. It's the therapist is job and I say this to my clients, because I feel like sometimes clients are like, I don't want to burden you with like, my stuff. And I'm like, it's my job to take care of me to take care of you. That's why I take vacations. So don't you worry about what you say and whether or not is burdening me don't worry about that. I got me and you

  KC Davis 34:56

  that's why that emotional health piece comes in. It's so important and you know, It made me think also of when we're talking about like, you know, she responded that way about my friend, which didn't work for me, but might have worked for someone else. Maybe somebody else really needs to be validated because their whole life they've never been validated. And it makes me think about when I love talking about like, has a therapist ever done something that made you uncomfortable? I like to ask that question sometimes. Which by the way, I think as a therapist, a great first question to ask in a session is Tell me about your past therapy experiences? What did you like? What didn't you like? Yeah, let's talk about so I can know off the bat, what doesn't doesn't work for you. What's so interesting to me is that I will always get this same comment. And I get both sides there for every person that says, I told my therapist about my trauma. And they cried, and it made me so uncomfortable, like this is now I feel like I have to take care of your feelings. And like, it didn't work for them. But what's interesting is for every comment like that, I also get a comment that says, When I told my therapist about their trauma, my trauma, and they cried, like, they didn't make some big blubbering mess, but they tears came to their eyes. And they just asked for a moment, it was the first time I realized what happened to me wasn't normal. Like, I had never actually been in front of someone showing me human empathy. And that human empathy sort of rocked this normalization of the way I had been treated. And was what made such an impact and was so helpful to me. And that's like the perfect example of like, both sides of the coin, because some clients need that and want that, that someone cares for me. Wait a second, especially if they're laughing about it, and you just refuse to laugh with them? Yeah, yeah. And you give them not refuse. Like, I'm gonna hold it out. But you just give them a moment of what would it be like, if I didn't laugh with you? If I was like, You're laughing, but gosh, that makes my heart hurt. Like some people really need that humaneness. But then other people probably as a result of their trauma, like, they don't need someone else's emotions in the room, because they can't have their own emotions in the face of somebody else's. Like they need that blank slate therapist. Yes,

  Shani Tran 37:05

  yeah, it might take them out of their window of tolerance, it might say, and I think that that's important to recognize. So something that I like to do sometimes if I can see a client, sort of, because I all of my sessions are held through telehealth is, I might say, Would you like me to turn off my camera? Because I feel like sometimes they want to not see me. And that's one of the benefits of telehealth for them to tell their story. And I can say, Hey, I see you do you want to turn off your camera? Because sometimes, you know, like, when you're looking, you're looking at yourself, too. And so that's helpful. And the other thing too, is that I don't think people understand or not understand. That's not what I want to say, I don't think people sometimes know that therapists can be uncomfortable and nervous to like, when I get the first time I have a first session with a client. I'm always very nervous. And the reason why I'm very nervous because I'm respectful that what did it take for this client to get here and make this step to come to therapy, and oh, my God, I don't want to fuck this up. I don't want to screw this up. I don't want to take this. And then I'm getting to know someone. And that can be very sort of like, I'm respectful to the vulnerability of someone coming to therapy, but also in that too. Sometimes, for me, as a therapist, I'm okay with being uncomfortable. Like, if we're in a session, and I'm like, Whew, I know what I need to say here. Like, there's so much that's going on. I feel like in my brain where it's like, okay, I could take it this way. But can they handle it this way? Maybe I just need to stop check in. And sometimes I can feel uncomfortable to with just restating what they said, like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna restate. So you said that hurt your feelings? What are you gonna respond to that? Like, I mean, it's a very sort of like, beautiful, messy, uncomfortable, unsure, uncertain, but validating, there's so many words that you can use to describe therapy, and it's up to the two people, the therapist and the client or family, everyone in the room to figure out what is going to work for this relationship.

  KC Davis 39:14

  It's really a practice relationship. Like at the end of the day, it's not really that much about what you're talking about, or what issue you come in with or like advice that they get, like, it's truly a practice relationship for most therapy modalities, like it's a person to practice on that is going to be safe that is going to hold your space that is not bringing their needs into the room, so that you can figure your own ish out and I I will say like, the pandemic added some things around teletherapy that I hope stay. The first therapist I worked with in the pandemic was a postpartum specialist. And she did hers via phone call. All Okay, not even like with a screen. I've never even seen her. And so I would literally be and my kids were so young, like so young. They didn't understand what I was. Saying, and so I'd be at the park, pushing them in a double stroller with Apple air pods on, or air buds or whatever they're called right? And I'd be moving, I'd be walking, I'd be keeping my kids comfortable and not screaming, and she'd be talking to my ears. And there was something about that. That was like, Man, this is actually really nice.

  Shani Tran 40:23

  Yeah. And I think that that the accessibility, that's what it really gives people, you know, not having to sort of like, okay, let me shift my schedule around. Because sometimes some clients I see on their lunch breaks, it just really allows it to be a part of your day and not having to be sort of at the beginning, or at the end, whatever works for you, you can have, I don't even think that people know that you can actually, if you want, you can have 30 minute sessions, if some therapists offer them mostly self pay, I don't think insurance covers over 60 minutes. So you can have like 90 minute sessions, you can have 45 minute sessions. Yeah, it's sort of like, I want 30 minute sessions with this client, or sorry, with this therapist, maybe 45 minutes over here, maybe like you really get to curate what you want therapy to look like.

  KC Davis 41:09

  And as often like, it doesn't have to be every week, some people go over to some people go once a month to check in. I feel like accessibility is something we don't talk enough about in counseling school, particularly around like, a lot of the way we talk about connecting to clients, is really neuro typically cold coded, like we should be offering to clients and the outset, like, are you comfortable with eye contact? Would you be more comfortable without eye contact? Would you rather sit next to each other? Would you rather do telehealth? Would you rather do phone call. And there is something to be said about like, when I have a person in front of me, I can observe their nonverbals. And sometimes that gives me a better picture of what's going on. But that should never come before what that person needs to be actually vulnerable and do

  Shani Tran 41:55

  work. And that's so important. I mean, I'm hoping I've been out of my grad program for like, what is it 12 years? Well, I'm hoping that it really has changed, because I remember having that one multicultural class. And that was the thing that was like, yes, now you can work with everybody. And it's like, no, not really, that's not how this works and operates. And that's been a part of like, just my learning journey. Like I remember in one of my jobs, I was one of the only black clinicians and I remember, I ended up asking my supervisor one time, I was like, Are you only giving me black clients? Because I feel like yes, I get that, you know, you want to give them someone that looks like them. But what about my skills, I really want to be noticed for my skills, all the other therapists get clients based on their skills. But then when you sort of present the client, to me, the first thing you say is yes, they're a person of color. I don't think that's fair to me as a person of color and as a clinician, because just because I'm a person of color doesn't mean that that's what's going to connect us. And I get how important that is. And so that honestly, if I'm being very truthful, that was very hard for me to speak up, because it almost felt like the one thing that I stand for is the bipoc community. But also at the same time, that's not what I want to be only noticed for, I want to be noticed for my skills as a clinician, that's how I grow. And so I remember that experience and being like, that doesn't qualify me to work with every person of color, because I'm the only person of color on the team. That's so great.

  KC Davis 43:29

  Yeah, turning, like taking a client or not taking a client, like referring a client out from bias is different than referring a client out from humility. And the same thing, like referring a client to someone because of your own stereotype is different than referring someone to someone because you have intimate knowledge of their skills, where like connecting from a marginalized community is just like one spoke on the wheel, right? Like you can't ignore all the other spokes be like, oh, yeah, they're a good fit. Yes,

  Shani Tran 43:59

  yes. And I think what you said is important. So one of the things and I talked about this in the book is like the difference between cultural competency and cultural humility, cultural competency, you know, that sort of shine, or I don't want to say shines light that sort of pays attention to the differences, whereas cultural humility pays attention to not only the differences, but how to also communicate with those differences. And cultural humility is a lifelong process. Whereas cultural competency, often sort of is like, we taught you this class, we have this diversity inclusion meeting. Now you're culturally competent, and it's like, now let's talk about cultural humility. And I feel like that's a term when I was in grad school, that term wasn't even used. It was mainly cultural competency. And I remember having like, I remember reading in a book and there was a section on Asians there is a section on LGBTQ plus there is a section on black people and it was like, This is what you're giving people as their training. And then every other class is about how to therapy as white people, yes, exactly. And it's like, I remember being so just like, anxious in my multicultural class because as soon as a topic for, you know, a person of color came up, everyone's like,

  KC Davis 45:14

  Oh God,

  Unknown Speaker 45:15

  and I'm just like, hi. Oh my god, like

  Shani Tran 45:18

  I remember so, short story. I remember for one of my papers, I wrote, I was like, it's great that we're talking about our experiences. But this isn't enough. We now have to figure out how to take action. And I'll never forget my professor wrote on my paper, we're not ready for that. And my multicultural class, and I was like,

  KC Davis 45:37

  Who? You said the quiet part out loud?

  Shani Tran 45:39

  I was like, oh, so why am I why are we taking this class?

  KC Davis 45:44

  Yeah, that's sad. Oh my goodness. Well tell everybody where they can get your book. Yes.

  Shani Tran 45:49

  So you can get the book at Barnes and Noble you can get it@walmart.com And of course if you would like to Amazon that is where this available

  Speaker 3 45:58

  Walmart I'm not even in Walmart. Oh, yes. Yes.

  KC Davis 46:02

  Oh much a big good yes.

  Shani Tran 46:04

  I Google it. That's how I find out like I recently found it on Urban Outfitters.

  Unknown Speaker 46:12

  How does this even like work?

  KC Davis 46:15

  That's amazing. And where can people find you online? If they want to follow you on your socials?

  Shani Tran 46:19

  Yes, if you want to follow me on my socials, everything is the Shawnee project. I would say if you want just sort of like the mental health videos, you can find me on Tik Tok. If you want to know me personally, you can find me on Instagram. And if you want help throughout your mental health journey, you can join me on Patreon where I actually give you printouts homework, how to navigate therapy, like actual talking videos, Tic Tac is more like, that's where I have fun dancing.

  KC Davis 46:45

  Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I thought this was a great conversation. And you have written a great book. So thank you again.

  Shani Tran 46:52

  Thank you so much for having me.