39: Life Coaching: the Good, the Bad, & the Ugly

Coaching is an interesting field with many nuances, and we hear a LOT of buzz about coaching right now. There are coaches for literally EVERY aspect of life. While there are things to appreciate about the field of coaching, there are definitely things to look out for, as well. I’m joined by my good friend, Heidi Smith, who is a Licensed Professional Counselor.

In Part 2 of this conversation, I’m joined by Rachel Ambrose for a coach’s perspective. Rachel is a coach for neurodivergents who has been diagnosed with ADHD and autism. As someone who holds multiple coaching certifications, she is here to give us a better look at the coaching field. She talks about the bounds of coaching and her personal experience around green and red flags in the industry. Rachel shares tips to help people know how to find a helpful coach and be more knowledgeable about the coaching field.

Show Highlights:

  • How Heidi partners with clients and coaches in her counseling work

  • Why there are legitimate questions about the training and oversight in the coaching field

  • Why coaching is, by definition, a less intimidating relationship than with a therapist but is like “paying for a friend”

  • How coaching and therapy embody very different relationships, lanes, and ethics

  • What to consider in questions about licensure and certifications

  • The ethical rabbit hole around the client’s relationship with therapists and coaches

  • Why the coaching field is like the Wild West right now

  • Pitfalls in the coaching industry around sexual integrity, case management, interventions, and narcissism

  • KC’s experience in researching ADHD coaching

  • The vagueness around a “spirituality coach”

  • The bottom line about coaching: “Do your research and be aware of potential drawbacks.”

  • Part 2 from Rachel Amrose:

    • Green and red flags around coaching around the following:

      • Power dynamics in the relationship

      • “I have the cure/the magical answer for your problem!”

      • Concrete, actionable items

    • How to know if a coach’s training is worthwhile or not

    • How to gauge a coach’s willingness to refer out–and stay in their lane

Resources and Links:

Connect with Rachel Ambrose: Website

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

  • KC Davis 0:05

    Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. I'm KC Davis, your host. And this is the podcast where we talk about mental health, self care, all things that have to do with just kind of surviving in the world that we live in. And I have my good friend, Heidi Smith, who is a licensed professional counselor supervisor with me. How do you? What are the chances I'm going to get angry emails from the coaching industry about this podcast episode?

    Heidi Smith 0:30

    Oh, as long as it's just you getting them, I'll be happy.

    KC Davis 0:33

    So I wanted to talk about coaching. Because it's an interesting field. And I feel like it requires a little more nuance than like a 60 second. Tik Tok can provide me?

    Heidi Smith 0:46

    Yes, it's an interesting field. And I've used coaches, but and I also have thoughts on them. There's I think there's certain things that I really appreciate about them. But I think there's certain things to look out for as well. Yeah. And there's like lots of different there's like recovery coaches in the addiction field. And there's ADHD coaches, life coaches, spiritual coaches I've seen and I financial coaches, financial coaches.

    KC Davis 1:11

    Yeah. And I'm kind of like you, like I have worked with really great coaching, I have seen coaching be really, really helpful. And I think that I have too much of a like, behind the scenes, like look at coaching, right? So it makes me extremely cautious about the field in general.

    Heidi Smith 1:30

    Yeah, for sure. At the same time, like, just, for example, you know, when I see an adolescent for therapy, which I because I specialize in substance abuse, I get a lot of substance abuse cases. And so if you want me to see your 15 year old son, you know, for individual therapy, I'm almost going to require you to have a coach on board. So because there are so many moving parts with an adolescent, you know, with school, with discipline, with contracts at home, things like that, that just to be honest, I don't, that's not what I love to do. It's not what I really want to do. I'm a therapist, I want to sit in the office with you and do therapy. I don't want to have to do all that other stuff. And I'm not great at it. And so, so I definitely partner with coaches. But But like you said, you know, it's the regulations around it. And, you know, the personalities behind it. You know, there's a lot of wildcards.

    KC Davis 2:29

    Yeah, the places that I've seen coaching work really well is like, I know, there's a there's a company in Dallas, like prides themselves on providing like wraparound services, where you'll see a therapist once a week, but then they have these coaches, and depending on your level of like mental illness, they'll come spend hours a day with you.

    Heidi Smith 2:47

    Yeah, they call them life development coaches.

    KC Davis 2:50

    Yeah. And they'll take you to do your laundry, and they'll talk about doing dishes, and they might even go to a social event together and talk about social skills.

    Heidi Smith 2:58

    Yeah, and I mean depending on, you know, the individual's level of functioning, I mean, it may be as detailed as taking you out to eat and teaching you how to order off a menu and teaching you how to put gas in your car and, and things like that. It's basic self care items, you know, all the way up to Yeah, just taking you to an AA meeting, taking you to play basketball, spending time with you developing social skills, things like that. So, and that's something that I can't do as a therapist.

    KC Davis 3:25

    Hmm. You know, I mean, there are some therapists that I guess, do some kind of out of the box things, you know, but for the most part, most of us have an office and you come in and you meet with us for an hour, and you leave. And so there are definitely limitations to what we can do. And so there, you know, I think these coaches fill a gap that is really necessary. I think what you start getting into is what kind of training do you have? What kind of oversight Do you have, you know, and ultimately, kind of who's, where's the oversight of those individuals? And there's some I feel like there's some coaching, that's way more cut and dry. So like, when the like development coaches, like they're specifically doing like life skills, you know, like we mentioned, or in someone who is, I mean, in a lot of ways, like, if you get like a Personal Organizer like that is they actually are a coach.

    Heidi Smith 4:16

    Absolutely.

    KC Davis 4:17

    Especially a good one that's not only going to engage like, I guess there are some people that are just personal organizers, like they're going to tell you where to put things, but the ones that I know that are really good are more like coaches, because they're going to examine, like, how do you operate in your space? And is it working for you? And like, what's keeping you from the skill of finding what you need? And what if you did it this way, and I actually interviewed a coach recently that I liked and asked her like, what she thought was the difference between like coaching and when you start to like, get into therapy world because it's when you get to like life coaching, that I feel like or like relationship coaching like the dating coaches and stuff. All of a sudden there's this like huge gray area.where it's like, how much can you talk about someone's feelings? And someone's like Outlook and beliefs before you start to get into like therapy world?

    Heidi Smith 5:09

    Yeah, yeah.

    Speaker 1 5:11

    I like the way she put it, she's like, you know, I can be there to offer a different perspective. But I'm not there to like mine the depths of like how to change yours.

    Heidi Smith 5:20

    Yeah, and getting into real deep clinical work, you know, I mean, I and it is that such a fine line that it's almost, you know, impossible to know exactly when it's been crossed. And same with career coaching. So I worked for an organization that went through kind of, you know, your typical cliche, almost like office space, the movie, you know, where they brought in, like custom consultants and, and, you know, we're kind of reevaluating the whole way, they did everything. And as part of that they brought in a coach and required us to all me do like six sessions with the coach, which, again, that's kind of getting into a whole different topic of, it seemed like, a little bit of a boundary violation, just even require that, you know, because it is kind of this deep personal work, we didn't get to pick the coach, it was there, it was a coach that they brought in. Either way I did it, obviously, I played ball and did the coaching, it was very interesting, like it was I got to, you know, work on setting career goals, and working on using my voice in different ways. And making kind of these micro adjustments at work and how I interact with other people. And it wasn't therapy, it was something different. And this woman was a trained coach, you know, with all kinds of certifications, it was much more of kind of like a professional, almost chart that she took me through, you know, of questions and actions and behaviors that I could change to meet my goals was very goal oriented, and not clinical. And she was clearly very well trained. But it was interesting, because it definitely, I mean, there was lots of sessions where I cried, you know, we're like, because I was like, facing fears of maybe, you know, using my voice in a staff meeting in a different way. And, you know, maybe asking for a raise, yeah, things like, very out of the box for me, but it was it honed in in a specific area of my life that I probably would have never done with a therapist.

    KC Davis 7:19

    So when I ran the rehab back in the day, one of the things that that was actually really helpful about the coaches that we employed was that like, a client would have a session with a therapist. And, you know, in a perfect world, like you're being totally transparent with your therapist, even when you kind of you're like saying things like, oh, I don't think that's going to work or I don't like the way you just said that or I'm feeling kind of uncomfortable in our therapeutic relationship. And like not everybody's there. And it was it was interesting to see, you know, this person would go in, they'd sit with this therapist that they saw as like this expert, usually older, more credentialed more training, and they'd come out of it. And they'd kind of be like, I don't know, like, what I everything that I think about that, right. And they turn around and have a session with their recovery coach and kind of like, share those doubts and fears. And that recovery coach was truly like the backdoor, like the guard of the backdoor of like, keeping them enrolled in recovery of like, yeah, man, I get it like I've been there. One time I like they do a lot of more like self disclosure, like, let me share my experience with how like, I wasn't sure therapy was working. But here's how it was really helpful. And kind of answer any questions. And then like, Have you have you talked to your therapist about that kind of like what you were talking about with like adolescents and homework and stuff? Like, it's like somebody else out the door?

    Heidi Smith 8:40

    Yeah, absolutely. And it's, I think, by definition, it's supposed to be a less intimidating, professional relationship. And so it's an enemy. There's actually a whole industry of peer recovery coaching certifications, where it really is like peer to peer mentorship, as opposed to a professional hierarchy. And so I think that's 100% I mean, it's, you're gonna get a whole different person. You know, like you said, for half for at least 50% of the population goes into therapy, even I do after years of being a therapist, like the last time I did you kind of a ballot of therapy myself, I mean, like, I was kinda I wanted to impress her and I wanted to make her think I was Yeah, I don't know. It's like I had to confront even myself in that context of realizing that I don't always go in like 100% Raw, vulnerable, authentic into my therapists office.

    KC 9:35

    It is also like paying for a friend. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but it's like, you know, a friend when I go to a friend like when I call you for advice, like I I'm calling you for like your like, casual as a person friendship like advice on a situation like I'm not expecting you to be perfectly objective or to hold some like unconditional positive regard. Hard for me like, you're gonna tell me I'm being an asshole if you think I'm being an asshole. And like, there might be a day that I call you and you're short with me and but like, that's a friend that I'm expecting to hear from, but I also like, I also can hold space for recognizing, like, am I treating this as a reciprocal friendship? Like, do you call me with your problems? When I call you with my problems? Am I also interested in your life and I think coaching can be helpful for people that maybe find themselves in this place where it's like, okay, I need some help. Not necessarily like therapy, deeps emotional work, but like, I have the situation at work, where it's kind of toxic, and I need to learn how to be I'm struggling with my ADHD and I can't seem to get anything clean. I can't get anything organized. I'm missing appointments. And like, I honestly need someone who can kind of serve as that one way street. But yeah, but more of a peer not like, it's a sure.

    Heidi Smith 10:56

    And it's more, I think, also, it's more accessible. And real time in theory, you know, like, depending on Yeah, situation, it's like, and I'll see my therapist for two weeks, and I only have a 50 minute session with her, you know, and I'm unpacking all this other childhood stuff, you know, but my coach over here, like, I can call him because I just got written up at work. And you know, I'm in my car crying over at lunch, and I may not be able to get a hold of my therapist, but that may be something that my life coach can walk me through. And so I think it's more accessible. And like you said, casual in, like, all the right ways.

    KC Davis 11:33

    Yeah. And I think that, like, if I were to work with a person, one on one about their home, like, based on like, the book that I wrote, and the content like that truly would be coaching. And absolute, because I would be asking, like, What messages do you tell yourself about care tasks? Like, that's an appropriate question for a coach, and then they'd share. And if they shared like, well, you know, my mother used to beat me, when my room wasn't clean. Like, if I was in a therapy session, where we would go with that is like, let's talk about that. And let's talk about those feelings. And let's maybe think of some modalities or interventions to talk about that trauma. Whereas if I'm going to address them as a coach, I'm going to go Okay, so like, it seems like, that's probably affecting the way that you look at cleaning now. So, you know, maybe we can come up with a, like a mantra that you can use to remind yourself that, you know, you're in your home and your home is safe now.

    Heidi Smith 12:34

    And right, like, that's yes, like moving kind of see moving around that in a different way than necessarily trying to sit there and unpack it. And that's, and that's like, exactly, I mean, that's where you get in the danger zone, you know, is is like coaching is very dependent on the specific into Huami I guess this is true for everything, like therapists to your it's very dependent on that specific person's training, level of integrity, and like level of humility, and ego of like, what they're capable of, and staying in their lane. And so being able to, to know that person and know that, like they're not trying to play therapist, and that they understand what their lane is, and that they have a some kind of guiding ethics around, like, here's what I do. And here's my lane. And here's what I don't do. And I guess that's true in most industries.

    KC Davis 13:30

    Right. And so, you know, but finding though there's really lacking that that licensing process, though, yeah, like, because, yes, you can get a therapist, that's not good. But I think the danger zone is like, if you get a therapist that is downright unethical and dangerous, like there is recourse out for reporting that person, right. So and I think that's like the good and I, I couldn't help but notice that like, one of the green flags, I guess, for coaching is like the great coaches that I've known, has been on a team. And I'm not saying there aren't great coaches that just kind of run their own business. I'm sure that there are, but I think that it definitely is helpful when you know, okay, there's the company that I knew that they would give you a therapist and a coach, or, you know, if you were to encourage, you know, an adolescent to get a coach, like, ideally, you'd be able to communicate with that person. Well, yeah, and that parent was in charge of that,

    Heidi Smith 14:25

    What like the, you know, some of those organizations you're talking about, even the the plan, the coaching plan is developed by a team that includes therapists. And so, you know, there's oversight, there's planning, and there's guiding ethics, even just by nature of being an employee of this organization. You know, like, we have obvious ethics as therapists, you know, I mean, we can't have dual relationships, we can't cross boundaries in the area of, obviously romantic sexual contact I mean basics right? And So having guiding principles and ethics around that, you know, is of the utmost importance.

    KC Davis 15:06

    Yeah, for for that reason, I think that I, most of the time would be more comfortable with someone that was an employee somewhere, right, like a coaching business with employees. Yeah, I'm not saying that there aren't individual contractors out there that are great. I'm just saying that like with an independent contractor, you have to do a lot more research, and have a lot more discernment when you look at them. And so I think that's like the good, right. So let's pause for a second here from our sponsors. And then I want to come back and talk about the bad and why I feel so apprehensive about coaching, even though I know it can be so helpful, you would think that like, one of the downsides to coaching are that coaches might dabble in mental health things that really they shouldn't, because they don't have that training, they don't have that education. And that's certainly one of the errors, especially when someone is a quote unquote, life coach, like it's kind of nebulous, like, What do you mean little life coach, like, there's not a specific skill set that they're focusing on? To help them develop? It's just general life coach, right? So you might think, you come across someone, and it's like, wait, but this person is a coach, and they have a Master's in Counseling. So like, that's the best of both worlds. And unfortunately, unless that person is also like, I know someone who is a therapist and a coach, but she maintains her therapy licensure, like, she still has a private practice. And she does therapy work. And then she also has a coaching business where she does, like cleaning, organizing, making appointments, and she does not take the same clients for both, okay, you can only be one or the other. And with that one, she is very clearly delineates, like, I'm helping you develop life skills. Yeah. And I'm talking about how you've organized your pantry and why it's hard to clean and how you're feeding yourself. And someone like that I would be comfortable with because if they were to do something unethical in a coaching space, like their board would still hold them responsible for that. Sure, right. Because it's like, oh, you know, you're a licensed therapist, and but you've got this like side gig where you're taking advantage of people. The part that makes me so nervous, is when a person has a Master's in Counseling, but they don't have licensure. And they're working as a coach.

    Heidi Smith 17:35

    Well, and then I mean, not and this isn't I'm not I don't mean this to be a wholesale judgment. But my first thought is like, Well, why don't you have a license? Yeah, and you know, because it's definitely something somebody who maybe has had their license removed, for, you know, who knows why, then it's like, they hang up the shingles coach. And so either way, I mean, whether they choose not to have a license or not, I would definitely want to look into the history there.

    KC Davis 18:01

    And, you know, I have to admit, like, this is 100% a prejudice on my part. But it's a prejudice based on experience. So I'm in no way saying that, like, every person out there, like, and I, you know, what I've actually heard a lot of is I came across someone the other day, and she was a black woman. And she said, You know, I have given up my licensure, because I'm uncomfortable with the position that puts me in when I'm working with people where I might get, you know, required to turn over medical records. Interesting. And here's the thing I don't I'm not like a marginalized population. And I certainly know that a lot of governmental systems are not set up to protect marginalized people. And so like, I think that's an interesting perspective. And so I'm not saying that anybody that, you know, decides not to get licensure. I also know like having ADHD, I can for sure, see someone who is trained and capable, that like, just couldn't get it together to get licensure. Sure. Sure. They couldn't do the admin part, maybe or get it renewed. Yeah, yeah. Or maybe they got a supervisor and their supervisor was really traumatic. And they just were like, Oh, God, I can't do this. Maybe they decided I want to be able to go to people's homes and help them with doing laundry. That's really my jam, like so. So please, if you're listening, it's not a wholesale condemnation. But I do want to share my experience. The only three people that I've ever known to hold the education of either being a therapist or a psychologist that did not hold licensure, all had sexual misconduct, yes, either before or after, right, some lost their license because of sexual misconduct and became coaches. Others never got their licensure. And then I come to find out that there's some sexual misconduct going on. Like truly that is and so that's why I personally am just like, now I have to say, all three of those people were men, heterosexual sis men. So that, frankly, may be more of a discussion for like, the red flags of like men that are not holding licensure that want to work with women. Yes. But then again, like, there's women out there like Teal Swan. Yeah, who certainly has some education? I think she has like a bachelor's in psychology or something ridiculous. Right? And, you know, she's pretty dangerous also.

    Heidi Smith 20:24

    Yeah. I mean, it's gosh, I mean, there's so there's, it's such a rabbit hole, when you go down, you know, the unethical things that we've seen in this industry, both coaching and licensed professional counseling or social work, and realizing, you know, when I was in school, you know, they talked so much about it during my ethics class. And I remember thinking, like, Who are these people that are like having sex with their clients? It just seems so like fantastical, you know, almost just like, that's got to just be like, you're one off, that never happened. I mean, you know, and then when I started working in the field, I mean, it's just it happens left and right. And, you know, realizing that this is that nobody's actually above it. And it's one of the things as a supervisor, and as a teacher that I've really, really been passionate about is helping people realize that you may think you're an amazing person with a great kind of ethical grid, but you find yourself in some blind spot. And it can happen quicker than you realize. And especially, you know, yeah, I mean, it happens to male therapists a lot. It happens to women therapists a lot.

    Speaker 1 21:35

    Yeah, if you've been practicing for any amount of time, and you can, like, I almost like don't believe someone who's been in practice, like, decades and decades, says that they've never been attracted to a client.

    Heidi Smith 21:46

    Oh, yeah. I mean, if you're not like, if you're open about, you know, that transference and countertransference, which is kind of a clinical term for, for that energy exchange, that happens and those feelings that happen in the context of the relation that therapeutic relationship. Yeah, I mean, that's, it's insane to think that your human beingness, you know, wouldn't show up in that context?

    KC Davis 22:10

    Well, it's interesting, because I think that would prevent like a counseling student or an intern or an associate from bringing up that they were feeling that is this fear that like, they're going to think I'm someone who is going to be unethical, but like the difference between therapists that are ethical, and there are like the difference between therapists that engage in sexual misconduct and therapists that don't, is not whether or not they've ever felt attracted to a client. It is whether or not they've ever been open with a peer about that and asked for, like, accountability around working out that transference.

    Heidi Smith 22:47

    Absolutely, and have a healthy amount of fear of themselves like, right, I'm not above this. I mean, I'm human, and I'm feeling a certain energy in this room that's scaring me. And I need to be open with it and seek counsel and seek supervision, and figure out how I can therapeutically navigate that or how I can end this relationship. And so I 100% agree. I mean, it's about the humility to be honest, and ask for supervision.

    Speaker 1 23:15

    And I think that's kind of what I hesitate or what scares me about the coaching field right now, as it stands being kind of like the Wild West, because you can find companies that offer certifications, you can find companies that offer training. But I think what the general public doesn't understand is like the difference between licensure and certification, like licensure is run by your state government. And they have big groups of people that come together to decide like what kind of education a person has to have, and what kind of training they have to have. And then there's this centralized place, where they oversee all the people that have licenses, and they're all under the same ethics. And if you report someone the same, you know, everyone gets the same kind of investigation. Whereas certifications, like certifications can be great. Like, I want to go to someone that has a certification for XYZ, I want to go like, if I did want to coach, I would want someone that had a certification. But the general public needs to understand that like, I, as Casey Davis could wake up tomorrow, make a PowerPoint presentation and offer a certification at the end. And people could listen to my

    Heidi Smith 24:23

    right and just print out a certificate. Yeah, like it's that easy.

    Speaker 1 24:27

    So you have to look when someone says I'm certified as a life coach, you have to go figure out like, let me Google that company like was that a coach that I interviewed? She did a nine month training. Yeah. supervise our boundaries? Yeah. Whereas other people can take a weekend course. Yeah. And so I think, you know, I really don't believe that, like fair, I think it's easy to get into that elitist space where it's like, therapists are better than coaches. And that's not true and they're different and the The kinds of people that are therapists are not different or inherently more ethical than the kinds of people that become coaches, it's just that there are systems set up within a licensure world to provide a place for that supervision so that people can talk about that, that provide a place where we know that everyone's getting that same education on those sorts of dangers. And there's that oversight so that if someone does mess up, we can.

    Heidi Smith 25:27

    Absolutely, and then there's, I mean, continuing education requirements. And you know, it's an ongoing, the license is an ongoing process. It's not a one time training over a weekend.

    KC Davis 25:39

    And what I would see sometimes with coaches, and it was typically again, it was older men who would do coaching. And often what I would see is they would work for organizations, but they would only be independent contractors, sure, so that when they kind of overstepped a boundary, there was no firing, there's no employment, like it can just move on record. Yeah, they just the person who usually approaches them, they don't want to make a big to do or a big hug, and they just go, you know what you need to go, we're not going to renew your contract, and they go, and they go to the next place. And there's not like this record of who's been investigating or who's been keeping up. And it's really unfortunate, they can go to a different state, and they can do this. And so that's why I feel sometimes really, I think it's really careful. I certainly, and again, I know this is prejudice, but it's one of those things where it's like, I'm sure there are really great, loving stray dogs, but like, it's still safer to say never pet a stray dog, because like, it's just not worth accidentally petting the wrong one. Sure, like, I just would never send a woman to get a coach that was a heterosexual sis man. And I'm sorry, to all of the men out there that maybe are the best coaches in the world that love to work with women, but like, I just never would. Yeah, it's too risky.

    Heidi Smith 26:55

    I don't know any, none of the coaches that I currently work with are referred to. It's all gender specific. And so I definitely, I think to err on the side of caution, you know, men coaches should work with male clients and female coaches should work with female clients. And that's not to say that's not failed.

    Speaker 1 27:15

    I mean, I have some room for like, well, and I have some room for identity too, like, sure. I've never seen like a gay man. Pray on a straight woman. Right. Yeah. And if you are, you know, and if you actually, yeah, yeah, that's true. Everyone can prey on anyone. Yeah. Or, you know, if you're a gay woman, like that's, that's a similar dynamic, working with someone who falls in line with who you would be attracted to. She would see in that air, you know what I mean? Like, I guess that's

    Heidi Smith 27:43

    who the potential lies for you to sexualize? Yeah,

    Speaker 1 27:46

    exactly. You know, I mean, the real question is, like, is this the type of person you would fuck? Right, let's be real, right? And not not even as a client. I'm not saying the client should ask that. I'm saying that like, yeah, the type of person that coach would fuck probably don't go with that coach. Yes, exactly. And again, not because y'all, there aren't some out there that are amazing and wonderful. I just would be hesitant, I think, because of I think the coaching industry will get there. Like, I think we'll get to a place where at least when it comes to like life skills, coaching, maybe we have a better set of guiding printed regulatory.

    Heidi Smith 28:22

    Yeah, well, and the interesting thing is, I mean, the only pitfall isn't even like, the idea of sexual integrity. But I mean, so many families I work with which I work in the addiction field, have been at least they claim now, I haven't done my own investigation. But you know, I talked to I work with young adults. And so I talked to moms and dads that have been burned financially by coaches, interventionists, you know, because interventionist is another, you know, and then worse, right, and case management. Yeah, that's another kind of interchangeable word. As you know, the in the addiction industry is the idea of these case management, people who kind of come in and get really involved with the family and help guide them as to how to deal with their son and where to send them and things like that. Now, I want to say, I mean, I most of the case managers, interventionists that I work with, obviously, if I'm working with them, I respect them and trust them, and so value, the space that they're in, in the work that they do, and they're needed. So I want to make that clear. But you know, there's bad X, and a lot of the abuse that I've seen actually has really been financial, hey, you need to pay me you know, $20,000 for a six month contract of case management, and then they don't do shit. It's like two phone calls a month, you know, I mean, and it's, and they can't ever get their money back. And so,

    Speaker 1 29:50

    yeah, and I'm kind of with you where it's like I so that like it's such a needed role, and I do value it. I just feel really, really bad for clients and families. Because you almost have to be like, someone like me someone like you someone inside the industry who's all connected to know what you're looking at. And that's unfortunate is like, there's no way to know what you're looking at.

    Heidi Smith 30:14

    Yeah, I mean, a family will call and tell us that they're working with a certain interventionist or certain case manager. And it's like, we all roll our eyes, you know, like to ourselves and just think like, oh, shit, it's not he's not the worst, but he's not the best. And you're probably not going to get your money's worth, and you know, and whatnot. And so yeah, it is, it's like, you have to kind of have your own experience your own insider information. And families get taken all the time.

    KC Davis 30:40

    And I always felt like, there's ton of like two kinds of people that become therapists, there are like people that have dealt with their own shit, then go, wow, I found that process so valuable. I would love to be the person that helps other people engage in that process. And then there's people that are like, they have not dealt with their own shit. And they have like a weird savior complex, and a very, like, it's the kind of people like you and I used to joke that, like, we would look around in counseling school and be like, some of you should just be rescuing puppies. Yeah, please like that. Like, like, just just don't like if you're, if that's what you like, just don't like if you really need to, like bleed heart all over someone, like go rescue puppies, like, don't do this, or that arrogance of like, I can help people, I can fix people, I can save people. And I feel like you run into that same thing when it comes to the coaching industry, where it's like, there's two kinds of people that become coaches, there's people who have, like, figured some stuff out and gone through some difficult times and came out the other end with a lot of wisdom, and a lot of practical skills, and realized, I love I've been telling my friend, I love this. Like, I feel like I could help people. And then the other person is like a person that goes through like their experience, and then believes that their experience is gospel and then decides, I just want people to pay me to tell them my experience.

    Heidi Smith 32:01

    Yeah, there's a lot of narcissists in this industry. And again, there's a lot of nurses licensed and not in every industry to I mean, you know, so it's like, it's hard to know, because they present well, and they sound good, you know, but sometimes they're definitely a one trick pony. You know, I mean, they what they have to offer is what worked for them. And that's kind of all they've, they've got.

    Speaker 1 32:24

    Yeah. So I wanted to share with you, at the end of this episode, I'm going to play the interview that I had with this coach. And I thought it'd be interesting for me to share with you like as I was looking at her website, like what I as a person who's really familiar with the industry, like saw that gave me like green flag vibes. Okay, right. Okay, I'm gonna pull it up. Hang on. So it's ADHD coaching. So off the bat, I love that there is a specific focus. Yes. Right. And on the front page, you can see prices and their per session. I like that. I'm not saying it's the only right way to do it. But I would say if someone's asking me to prepay for six months of something, yeah. Before I've had any experience with them, it raises, I'm more cautious. Yeah, absolutely. Like, I'm going to need them to really justify to me what that's about. And but right on the homepage, can you diagnose me? No, coaches do not diagnose? And there's a whole paragraph about that. Right? Do you work with kids? No, I do not work with kids. How do you know what you're talking about? And then there's a list of where she got some certifications, where she got trained a little bit about herself.

    Heidi Smith 33:33

    And so she's already saying on the website, what she doesn't do, which I think is yes, yeah. Here's what I do. Do and here's what I don't do. Yeah.

    Speaker 1 33:42

    And so when you go to her like sessions and services, you know, obviously, you have like the individual coaching sessions, and but then she has group coaching sessions and listen to that sandbox, a weekly group motivation session for neurodivergent creatives on Thursdays. It's four sessions per month, about what you pay, and then she has a price. Hype yourself up about your creative practice and hype others up. And it's just like a, you know, when you're feeling stuck, yeah. And I'm like that to me way green light, because it's like very much I'm a peer. And I'm gonna bring together other peers, and it's about like, pushing each other and encouraging each other and helping get unstuck from like, a creative process, or maybe a work process.

    Heidi Smith 34:27

    Well, yeah, and there's not a lot of clinical jargon, too. Yeah, that's another red flag for me is when I hear a coach talking, saying a lot of clinical jargon, like, you know, trauma, just even that it's like, well, you know, work on their trauma. It's like, are you gonna do you need to be working on their trauma, you know, so even just the words that and

    Speaker 1 34:45

    then the next thing is, yeah, there's no clinical jargon. Okay, so then we have group body doubling sessions, get more things done with other neurodivergent people. It's great for those who thrive on seeing other people's energy and progress. And I'm like, see, that's great. Yeah. If we're gonna get on a video call and get, you know, get something done around our house that we need to get done that's hard to motivate ourselves for. And then she also has a queer Joy support peer support group, where we get together and we pull from each other's collective wisdom, share weekly wins, and even make friends. So off the bat, I love that she has outlined some very specific skill takeaways that you'll get from her. It's not just I'm going to help you with your life. It's like, oh, she's really honed in on like, I'm here to facilitate I'm here to look at specific skills and help you get unstuck, so you can access those skills. I don't know, what are your thoughts on that?

    Heidi Smith 35:39

    Yeah, no, I mean, I love it. I think even just the words about you know, she used the word, we're gonna hype you up, and really motivating, and supporting is what the whole purpose is. And so I mean, I couldn't agree more that there's a lot of green flags there, in the way that she's presenting what she does in a really authentic way.

    Speaker 1 35:59

    I love it. One thing that is a red flag for me, and I don't even know that it means that it's always bad. But man, I've never met a spirituality coach that I trusted.

    Heidi Smith 36:12

    Man, that's such a gray area, right?

    Speaker 1 36:15

    And the reason is, is because by nature of the very like subject of spirituality, it's just too easy to create a power dynamic.

    Heidi Smith 36:26

    Yeah, I don't even what is I mean, I don't even know what is a spirituality coach. I don't like are they? Did they go to seminary? Are they trained and a specific?

    Speaker 1 36:36

    Yeah, I don't, might be might not be, but I'm thinking like all Teal Swan type characters. But others like that I've come across that maybe you're talking about teaching meditation, or that could turn into illness cult leader real quick. That's where I go, it just makes me nervous. Like, I would rather find a community to help somebody plug into Yeah, or a group something or another versus like a one on one, I'm going to teach you about spirituality just because again, like, it's so easy to get into this area where all of a sudden, it's like, I'm the person that holds the sacred knowledge. Right? And I know you better than you know, yourself. Yeah, yeah,

    Heidi Smith 37:16

    There's a lot of power and influence. When you start, you know, throwing around spirituality, I think there's an opportunity, it just depends. If a life coach is getting involved in helping somebody seek, taking, hey, let's go visit, you know, a Buddhist temple, and let's go visit a synagogue and let's go try out a mosque. And let's explore some different options here and see if anything fits. I think that's great, you know, versus somebody who's trying to guide and lead in a way that creates a power dynamic. And so, man, it's, it's so much of it is dependent on the person. And I think that's the good and the bad, right? It's like, I could see somebody being an amazing coach who helps somebody explore spirituality, if they had like, incredible integrity and ethics and kind of guiding principles of here's what I do. And here's what I don't do. If somebody is on a narcissistic power trip with very little insight into themselves, and they're a quack, you know, who's just out to make money. And there's no way to know that until there's like, kind of bodies laying in the background. Yeah, I mean, metaphorically, you know, until you've seen the work that they've done, and there's already been damage. And so it's, that's a hard learning curve, you know?

    Speaker 1 38:38

    Yeah. And I mean, that's true of any I mean, that's not even a coaching specific thing, like I, you know, because we all know, priests and pastors and all sorts of people in really it because it comes with that spiritual authority. Yeah. I think yeah, for a lot of people that goes hand in hand.

    Heidi Smith 38:55

    Yeah. And that idea of giving somebody spiritual consent and your life. I mean, you even get into that with 12 Step sponsors, sponsorship, you know, is like, I'm going to put myself in a vulnerable position and give this other person in my life, like a level of spiritual consent for them to give a feedback and explore this kind of, in depth area of my life. And so, there's, there's a lot of opportunity for abuse there.

    KC Davis 39:22

    I love that term, like spiritual consent, or even like emotional consent, because I'm kind of someone that believes that, like, it's okay to give a person feedback if they're doing something really harmful, like anyone, right? Like if if I know of a therapist, and I don't know them, but they're doing something harmful for me to be like, hey, I need to, like give you some feedback here. And if there is something I can do via their licensure, fine, but if I know someone else and like, it's not that like, I have to have someone's permission to like point something out to them. But I do think that when it comes to like, just areas of like, Hey, this is where I think you're wrong about something or this is where I think you need to grow about something or this is where I think You have like a mistaken belief about something. It's not that I can't point it out. But to me, the spiritual comes into it. Like, if that person then says like, Okay, thanks. Or they say like, no, that's not it. That's to me where it's like, I don't then get to like, push and argue with them. And be like, No, it is, and here's why. And here's, like, engage with them. Unless that someone who has given me that like spiritual consent, as a friend that has said, I welcome you to push back on me.

    Heidi Smith 40:29

    Yeah, that's fine. I mean, I think it's a great term, actually, I'm sure it's like a common term, but I learned it from my husband, my husband uses it a lot in that in the context of 12 Step sponsorship, and, and with your spouse, and with your friends, and that, like you're talking about that there's this small circle for me that, that I've allowed somebody in my life and given them that spiritual consent. We're like, you know what, I'm open, like, you have hold a place in my life where, like, you get to tell me the truth at any time. Like, I've given you that spiritual consent. I haven't always, it's not always like a formal conversation, you know, but it's sort of an unspoken thing where that happens in really intimate friendships and intimate relationships.

    KC Davis 41:12

    And now this is like a little off topic. But it reminds me of a conversation I had with a psychologist from Divine where we were talking about, like, the difference between taking accountability for something in your community and be like, having to, like, let people walk all over you and just like, treat you like dirt because you messed up. And like, who has the right to, like, tell you that your accountability is or isn't good enough, or any of that. And she had this great metaphor, and she was like, you know, it's important. Like if you're in your in your, like, home, and your spiritual home or whatever. And people are saying, like, hey, we need you to come out and talk about this. And like, taking accountability is like stepping out and like opening your door and letting people look in and be like, Yeah, okay, this is what's going on inside. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that you have to let anybody just anybody come in your house and start like rifling through shit. Right? Like that you need specific consent for?

    Heidi Smith 42:09

    Yeah, absolutely. That I think having those personal boundaries, which is a whole different podcast, you know, but to understand, like, who, who deserves spiritual consent, and my life, and, you know, again, a different podcast, but that idea that employers, you know, especially in the helping industry, I think, oftentimes think that this is a space where just because like we're working in the helping industry, like we're all we're gonna run our staff, like, you know, like a big spiritual feedback session all the time. And I think that can get very abusive very quickly. ,

    Speaker 1 42:46

    And that we're going to definitely do an episode on that, because I could talk for days on that.

    Heidi Smith 42:51

    Oh, I could do and I've been a victim of it as well, myself. Yeah. So that's not maybe a victim, but I've experienced it for sure. Yeah.

    Speaker 1 42:59

    Okay. Well, thank you, Heidi. I mean, I feel like that's a good overview of like, The Good, the Bad, the Ugly. I think the bottom line is, do your research. Yeah, honestly, whether it's a therapist or not, I just be aware of some of the potential drawbacks. I think that also what I've seen is I've seen someone get under the thumb of a really unethical coach. And then they're you, like you said, like, you look around, there's like bodies on the ground. And then they want recourse. Right. And it's like, and you have to, and I think that's where this comes from, like, so I hope people can kind of understand why I feel so cautious about this. But it's like, if you've ever had to break it to someone who had been truly, like, violated emotionally, physically, spiritually by signing it, if they financially by someone that they believed to be an expert coming to help them if you've ever had to break it to that person. Oh, actually, there's nothing you can do. There is no one that you could tell there is no way to stop them. There is no way to put a mark on their record. There is no way to alert the public. I mean, like there's no governing authority. Yeah, there is no yeah, like, it's just so difficult. It is yeah. So I just that's the thing that I want people to be aware of. And look at that. And so So next I'm going to sit down and talk to actually that ADHD coach and hear from them what they think about the bounds of coaching, their personal experience about sort of green flags that they see in the coaching industry versus some red flags that they see to help the people that are listening that might find coaching helpful to them, to make them feel a little bit more equipped to be able to pick out a coach. I can't wait. Thank you, Heidi. Thanks. Rachel, thank you so much for being here. Will you introduce yourself to the audience?

    Rachel Ambrose 44:44

    Hi, I'm Rachel Ambrose. I run for to like coaching. I used to hear they pronouns but I'm really happy to be here.

    Speaker 1 44:50

    I am really glad that you're here too, because I was just speaking with my friend Heidi. She's a therapist and both of us have worked with coaches before so we're going to start talking about like the good, the bad, the ugly and And I wanted to bring in a coach and talk specifically about some of the green flags and red flags that people can look for if they feel like a coach would be helpful to them. Yeah, absolutely. Let's

    Rachel Ambrose 45:09

    Yeah, get into it.

    Speaker 1 45:10

    Okay, so one of the things that I loved that you said, was the difference between whether or how someone is presenting themselves as an expert, can you talk a little bit about like green flags and red flags there?

    Rachel Ambrose 45:23

    Yeah. So obviously, when you go to a therapist, they are an expert in mental health in whatever their modalities are. And I think it's really important when people go to coaches that it's very clear that they and the coach are on the same level, for two reasons. A, I think that it's very important that the client is centered in the entire coaching relationship. And in order to center the client, the coach needs to make sure that there's no weird power dynamics at play. And so in order to do that, the coach really needs to meet the client where they're at, and be able to work with the client, following the client's lead. And if you style yourself as an expert, there's already sort of that initial assumption of oh, this coach knows more than me like this coach, like, somehow got like the magical tips and tricks that I've never heard of, and cannot ever come up with in my own brain. And that's not a place where I personally coach from, and that I think, is a particularly useful dynamic to engage in. And I think that centering the client and making sure that the client knows that they are fully empowered to take the lead, puts the client in a really interesting position, because I don't know about you. But so many times where we express struggled with being neurodivergent folks in neurotypical society, we're just sort of handed these boilerplate advice bits that don't actually help us out in the long term. And a coach should really empower the client to be able to explore and come up with their own best solutions.

    Speaker 1 47:21

    So one of the things that you mentioned to me when we talked was and I guess we would call it maybe like a yellow flag when we're talking about like, someone who presents themselves on this pedestal as an expert is kind of a red flag, you want someone who's appear, but also like, in the marketing, when you see language about like, try my proven method, right? Or like, it's like, it's okay, if somebody has a workshop or whatever. But sometimes in the marketing, you can tell that there's like intention to exploit somebody's vulnerability. And like, they talk about cures and fixes. And there's this really awful woman on Tik Tok right now, who is making tech talks about how like her son used to have autism. And he, you know, she has cured him. And if you want to book with me one on one consultations, and like, I will coach you through what to do, right? And so like, immediately, you know, we should have red flags about like curing like, probably not, right, no, absolutely not get in. And it's like, all of this, like, let me sell you MLM supplements. But that would be I mean, my first red flag is anyone who says it can cure autism, but that if somebody may be a new parent wasn't, you know, didn't know anything about autism. But that should be the first thing is like curing fixing. You know, you're inherently broken, but I have the magical answer that I've put behind this paywall.

    Rachel Ambrose 48:43

    Yes, yes, yes. subscribe to my newsletter, where I will break down five easy steps for you to work with your autistic child and cure them of their No, absolutely not. We don't do that.

    Speaker 1 48:57

    Yeah. Okay. You mentioned the issue of training, like, obviously, there's no licensure, there's no like, training across the board. But how can we look at if somebody says, like, Oh, I've trained, what can we look at to know whether that person maybe has worthwhile training or not?

    Rachel Ambrose 49:14

    Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that it requires clients to be so much more canny than they would be if they were having the same conversation with a therapist. Because, yeah, coaches should go to coach school, they should go to ADHD specific code school, if that's the particular niche that you're trying to get help in. And some really great programs out there include AGCA, which is the education program that I went through. It's a nine month process. If somebody tells you that they took like a weekend course and how to become a life coach. Don't book them. It's a really intricate process because it's a completely different way of engaging With a person, then the typical conversation with anyone else might go. And you should be learning from mentors and certified master level coaches. Some good things to look for include ad code, badging, or I act badging or PAC badging on a coach's website. And those are all training programs and credentialing programs that cater specifically to ADHD coaches.

    Speaker 1 50:30

    Thank you. So the last little category that you mentioned, when we were talking was the idea of like a coach's willingness to refer out.

    Rachel Ambrose 50:41

    Yeah, I think that my golden rule for coaching is no your lane, love your lane stay in your lane. And so I will refer out for two reasons. Well, many reasons, but two big ones. One is I say coaching and therapy can work side by side. But they but coaching cannot cross into therapy. And what I mean by that, specifically is in regards to trauma and mental illness in terms of biochemistry. So if a client were to come to me and say I have ADHD and depression, but my depression is really well managed. And I'm working with a therapist alongside your coaching, that's great, we can play ball. If a client comes to me and says, I have ADHD and depression, I've been in a in and out of therapy for some time currently out of therapy. Yeah, we can give it a shot. And if it turns out that the depression is in need of adjustment, or if there's trauma that comes up within the course of the coaching relationship, I will immediately refer out because I can work with we can we can talk about trauma during the context of a session, I do not process trauma at all, I don't touch it. That is for people who are way more qualified than I am. And it they they should be able to be accessed. I've even sat on client calls where they have opened up like psychology today with me, and I bought it out with them while they have made those initial reach outs to their local therapists.

    Speaker 1 52:32

    So there's one thing that you said that I highlighted when you and I were emailing back and forth, and I just want to kind of read it and then have you maybe expand on it for our last little spot here. But you said, another really important element of coaching is its concreteness, a client might want to work on their blog, for example, a coach would say what specific things would you like to get done on the blog between this session and next, what feels sustainable, what feels like something that could fit easily into your schedule this week, once the client has narrowed down what they might be a realistic goal for the timeframe, the coach might offer to check in with them a few days and see how it's going. I love how you put that because I think what can be hard is like a therapist can do therapy. And they also sometimes provide what can what is kind of like coaching, like they can give you practical, practical advice, actionable advice, but they can also do the like, Hey, we're not going to necessarily take action items, we're going to like delve in and talk about feelings and talk about psychology. And so I appreciated that you brought that up, because I think if somebody is working with a coach, and they're not walking away with concrete, actionable things, then that will kind of raise a flag about like, what am I doing with this person? Like, what are they trying? Like, there's no ambiguous healing this person can give me right, like there should actually be walking away with concrete things. And so can you talk to that for just a second?

    Rachel Ambrose 53:54

    Yeah. So I think that having a specific outcome within the course of a session is a really important distinction from therapy. I personally have never walked into a therapists office and had the therapist sit me down and say, Okay, what are we talking about today, and whether it's, you know, mindfulness or whatever the topic may be, okay, what would be a successful metric for you to walk out of this session with, and then partnering with the client to make sure that they get there. And I think that, like people who are not familiar with coaching or have never been coached before, that can be a really important distinction to make between a coaching session and a therapy session, because it's, the client is totally in the driver's seat. And the coach is just there to make sure that they get to where they want to go. And then it's like, okay, like we've gotten to this action plan and now you have some concrete steps to go and work on your blog. And do you need any support from me? In order to fully accomplish this task over the next few days.

    Speaker 1 55:04

    Yeah, that's really helpful. It reminds me almost of like when you go bowling and they have like the bumpers that they can braid as it's like, this is you and your journey, you're going down the lane, but like, I can help act as those bumpers of like, you know, setting concrete goals, checking in with how you're feeling, checking in with, you know, what you're thinking and being maybe some accountability, maybe some different perspectives. Like I like that idea of, you know, I'm moving, I'm in charge of my journey. But from a practical sense, like, I need someone to kind of help me with these practical things as they go through. And again, like practical things are going to include like, Hey, I'm anxious about this, or I'm telling myself that I'm not good enough to do this. So like, yeah, as a coach, you're going to come up with those sorts of things. And so knowing how to talk to someone about those things is okay. But you know, I think that you're right, it just takes a good coach to know, you know, when are we talking about, hey, let me offer you a different perspective. Or let me share my experience with feeling like I wasn't good enough. Let me encourage you, you know, Hey, have you ever heard, you know, here's a saying that I heard that really helped me like at that versus getting into like, well, when? When was the first time you thought you didn't feel good? Right. So that's really helpful. Yeah, that's really helpful. So I'm

    Rachel Ambrose 56:18

    I like to say that coaching is for the present and future you whereas therapy sometimes can focus more on the past? Like I would never ask, like, when was the first time that you felt like you weren't good enough? Like, you know, that deep historical self narrative isn't really for coaches to touch a lot of the time. But if you are having issues with adjusting your expectations when it comes to like cleaning your kitchen, we can dig into maybe where those internalized expectations are coming from and whether they're appropriate for you to continue having and what you might want to replace them with.

    Speaker 1 56:59

    Yeah, that's helpful. Rachel, thank you so much. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about your services?

    Rachel Ambrose 57:05

    They can find me at my website is welcome to the porchlight.com and they can find me on Instagram at porch dot light dot coaching.

    KC Davis 57:15

    And you do ADHD coaching?

    Rachel Ambrose 57:17

    I do and audio HD coaching. I work with people who have the combo meal of ADHD and autism as well. Awesome.

    KC Davis 57:25

    Well, thank you so much, Rachel.

KC Davis