41: Breaking Free from Self-Improvement with Frankie Simmons

I’m so excited to have my first in-person guest on the podcast! Frankie Simmons is here, and she’s literally sitting right next to me. I love Frankie’s TikTok content, and I resonate with so  much of what she says. I feel like she is a younger version of me, as we have similar backgrounds and healing journeys. I hope you will join us for this conversation!

Show Highlights:

• Get to know Frankie and our thoughts on being fellow Texans

• How Frankie exited her background in Christianity and fear and began to explore the world

• Why Frankie does TikToks about her functional responses to trauma and finding self-trust

• The journey from fear and insecurity into feeling worthy and accepted

• How Frankie experienced a mind-blowing shift in her approach to life

• Why Frankie has chosen to be sober–and how that has changed her life and relationships

• Frankie’s journey to understand herself as a confident introvert

• How we can experience a different version of life when we accept ALL of ourselves

• What things are like in Frankie’s relationship with love and acceptance

• How it harms us to be taught that we should feel guilty if life is “easy” and not a constant struggle

• How Frankie and KC describe their current relationship with Christianity, faith, and spirituality

Resources and Links:

Connect with Frankie Simmons: TikTok and Instagram

Connect with KC: TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to Struggle Care. This is your host, Casey Davis. And I am so excited to bring you my first ever in Person guest Frankie Simmons,

  Frankie Simmons 0:18

  That's me

  KC Davis 0:19

  Sitting literally right next to me. Okay, so Frankie, the reason that I asked you to come and do an in person podcast with me is because first of all, I love your material. And I feel like I really resonate with a lot of the things that you say. And and I mean this in like, the least patronizing way, I almost feel like you're like a younger me.

  Frankie Simmons 0:39

  Yeah.

  KC Davis 0:40

  And not in the sense that like, oh, I learned those sorts of things years ago, but like, I feel like you are at the same place as I am in terms of our like, general healing journeys. You're just younger than me.

  Frankie Simmons 0:52

  Wow. Honored to hear that. Cool. Thank you.

  KC Davis 0:54

  And so I truly did not even have like a pre conversation with you before we literally you walked in the door, and I was like, here are headphones. And I don't even really have like a full agenda. I just wanted to kind of ask you about yourself. Because I knew that if I did that on the phone, that we ended up having a really great conversation, and I would kick myself and I'm recording it. So do I understand correctly that you're an expand Jellicle? Okay, so I think that that is one of the first things that I really related to you about because I am so I got sober when I was like 16. So I ended up in rehab. And it was like a 12 step rehab, that very much pushed like spirituality, not any necessarily any religion specifically. But they definitely said like, if you cannot figure out a way to have a relationship with a God of your own understanding, like you are not going to stay sober. And that was scary, because I didn't believe in anything. And I started to like, wake up every morning before everybody else. And I would go outside, and this was in like a cow pasture in Oklahoma. This is where this place was. And I would sit on a bench and I would like watch the sun rise. And I would literally pray to a god I did not think existed, and sort of eventually sort of felt as though okay, like, there's something happening here. And then I got out of that rehab after like 18 and a half months, but it was so heavy on behavioral modification that I was terrified to trust myself. I really believed like if I thought something, I had to run it by like a panel of people. And I had to do exactly, I had to have all of these like accountability. And I had to look at every single thing I was doing and make sure I wasn't being selfish.

  Frankie Simmons 2:41

  Yeah.

  KC Davis 2:41

  Right, like, really be insightful. And I feel like the majority of people that talk about like a mental health journey or a healing journey, almost experience like the opposite, where it's like, they go from a place of not being aware to a place of self awareness, and understanding like their own motives and understanding why they do the things they do and learning how to be introspective. And to not just blame others, but to kind of see where they're participating and maybe things in their life that aren't going the way they want. So I feel like that's the majority of the people that I know when they talk about the journey. And I think that's what attracted me to your content was because I feel like and maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like you would agree with me that I it was like the opposite though. Like I started out hyper introspective. Yeah, very much like, what are my motives? Do I have pure motives? Am I being altruistic enough? Am I being humble enough? Like just constantly navel gazing? Because first it was sobriety, like I truly believed that if I wasn't, quote, unquote, spiritually fit, that I would start using drugs again, and then I would die. And then I ended up converting to Christianity when I was like, 19. And there were some things about that church that I really appreciated that I think really helped me in terms of this idea of God as like, not this like judgmental policeman in the sky. But I still ended up with this sense of like, I have to hyper analyze every move. Yeah, every decision, every emotion. And I had this as a sponsor that kind of went into this. So like, let me just give one example. I remember calling my sponsor one time, because I felt so guilty. And I truly believe that like, if I didn't like say it out loud, and kind of like a tone for it, that it would cause me to go use drugs or it would cause me to like be cut off from God or whatever. And I called her and I was like, I just need to confess like, I have a theater degree. I went to u and T. And I had this class called movement class, where you would learn like, you know, like, how to play, let not play like stage fight or these sort of things. And we had this one class about like leaps and jumps. So think like, you know, Nobody puts baby in a corner. Right?

  Frankie Simmons 5:01

  Yeah.

  KC Davis 5:02

  And so that's what we did. And there was like this really cute guy in my class. And I was like, oh, I want to be partner with him. And then I was. And later that day, I was talking to my boyfriend at the time. And he was like, what would you do today, and I told him about this class. I was like, and we were leaping and jumping, it was cool. And I got to like, run, and this guy would like, put me in the air. And I had this like, sudden flash of a thought, which was like, I wonder if he that makes him jealous, because that would be nice. Because it feels good when someone's jealous about you. But after the conversation, I was like, wrecked with this guilt of like, I was trying to incite jealousy. And I call and this woman who was like, my spiritual mentor at the time, reamed me on like, if you can't not think about yourself, like, you are not going to be in this relationship anymore. Like, if you continue to harm other people, like then you are not ready for a relationship. And just this idea that like I needed to be spiritually fit enough to deserve to be in a relationship. So I know, that's like a really long story, but all that to say, that's where I began.

  Frankie Simmons 6:09

  Yeah, no, I feel that so much of just like, actually, the issue is not that I don't understand what's happening. It's that I'm like, making too much meaning out of the things that's happening. And I think that's so interesting that like, because for me, it was I grew up in Christianity, it was like, just everything I am was like, shaped through that. And it's interesting to think about, like coming into it later in life, but at like such a vulnerable place where you're like, my whole world just fell apart. And now I need to rebuild it. Like it almost has that similarity of like,

  KC Davis 6:36

  Yeah, totally.

  Frankie Simmons 6:36

  I'm curious how that feels like

  KC Davis 6:38

  Well, yeah, cuz I think as a child, it's like, you have nothing. And so your entire life is built on the foundation of like, this is how you understand the world. And I do think it was very similar, because it was like a world ending event to go to rehab.

  Frankie Simmons 6:53

  Yeah.

  KC Davis 6:54

  And then there's this fear of like, I don't ever want to be that person again. I'll ever want to be in that kind of pain.

  Frankie Simmons 7:00

  Yeah, no, that makes sense. And it is like that fear, like, I'll do anything like, I'll believe whatever I need to believe to, like, not go back to that place where it's like, the way that I grew up. It's just like, the fear of hell is like, so baked into your bones that it's like, it literally doesn't matter what you asked me to do, if like, I don't have to go to that place, then like, cool, I'm on board. But yeah, and that fear, just like constantly keeping you from actually getting to have like, even like an authentic thought process where you just like, go on a decision making journey and approach anything with curiosity, because there's like this end goal that you always have. So you just don't get to like, even just explore or expand or ever, like, grow beyond that point. Because it's like, constantly, it just will follow you forever if you let it.

  KC Davis 7:43

  I remember this like guy that came to the church one time I was talking about, like, his spiritual gifts and how he could hear a God and he would talk about like, walking into his closet in the morning and being like, God, what should I wear today? And then like, choosing what to wear to I mean, like, that's how intense it felt like it was

  Frankie Simmons 7:59

  yeah, no, I remember people being like, if you lose your watch, and you try to find your watch without asking God, where your watches that is you acting out of your own wisdom and like not giving your life over to God. It's just like, there's not a single thought that is free from like, this could be a sin. And this could be like you your nature, like coming in to destroy everything.

  KC Davis 8:20

  Yeah. So how did you exit that?

  Frankie Simmons 8:23

  It really started with I think, like shifting my politics, I went off to college. And immediately I remember very specifically, I was on Tumblr, and in like 2013, and post popped up on Tumblr that said, I don't exactly remember exactly what was going on. So this might not be exactly but it was like every House Republican just voted against, like equal pay for women. If you're a woman, why are you a Republican? And I was like, I'm not anymore. Cool. Like, it was just because I just been so like, brainwashed that the moment I got exposed to something else, I was like, Oh, this makes so much more sense, like, so I was shifting, like, politically, like over that time, which to me was like, not at all there was like, no conflict between that and my faith. Because I was like, Yeah, this is what Jesus wanted, obviously. But I kind of like then got to the point where I was like, and I think maybe gay people should be allowed to do whatever they want and be whoever they want. And that was the point where it was like, Oh, I can't actually continue to pursue that and stay in community with the people that I'm in community with right now. And I remember like, just sitting in my bed and being like, if God is who I've always been told he is, and he's not actually afraid of my question, I was realizing that like, I've never actually allowed myself to ask the open ended questions because growing up in the church, there's this like, yeah, you're gonna have doubts, ask the questions, like five steps in of like, I know that this is true. And I know that this is true. And I know God loves this. And I know God hates this. I'm having an issue with this one part of that, can you help me not have an issue with it anymore? Like, it's you're always assuming that like, the end of the doubt is not having it anymore. There's never like a question that could lead you in a different direction. And so I was like, I have to just let myself actually Approach a question with a willingness to have my mind changed, or else I'm never going to actually know. And so I just like started exploring, just like, what does the Bible actually say about all of these questions that I had. And so it was really that first that like, started to crack things. And then I think just from there, like realizing how much of a lack of love there was in the way that I had been taught to relate to myself and to relate to the world and being in a place where I'm told that like, God is love. Meanwhile, you're standing on this foundation that is like just fear, like, more than anything else. And it's like a version of love that is all filtered through fear. And, yeah, it was just like, oh, I don't think this actually makes sense to me anymore. And so it was really just that that, like, stepped me out of it. And then, but from there, I was like, in the midst of it also going on a lot of like, opening the doors to my own, like mental health journey. I was like, in this place where I was like, really navigating everything. And I started to watch myself go to these other spaces of like, trying to practice like my therapy homework, or trying to engage with other forms of spirituality and watching myself have a very like, fundamentalist framework and how I practice those things like continuing to come to everything, like I am broken. And if I journaled for three hours every day, maybe I will be less broken. And having just like, so much black and white thinking and everything, and I just started realizing, like, okay, it's not actually enough, I actually need to take steps for the church to leave me because this whole way of like relating to myself and relating to the world is like, the only pathway my brain knows how to follow. And I just need better pathways. Because this one like is not, I just keep running into more walls. And I think that was like a big thing to like, take this conscious step of like, I don't want the foundation of my whole world to be that I'm a terrible person anymore. And that I need to take all these steps to try to be less terrible. Like, I would like to move from a space of like, what if I'm good, actually, maybe I'm just kind of started to run this experiment of like, what if I started treating myself like I actually was trustworthy, just to see what happens and to see if everything falls apart the way that I was always told that it could be. And it kind of changed everything. So

  KC Davis 12:11

  that was so profound. When you said, it wasn't enough for me to leave the church, I had to take steps for the church to leave me. And I do really resonate with a lot of what you say, especially when you talk about like, the fear of hell, like I didn't necessarily have the fear of hell, but I had like, it was like hell on earth. You know what I mean? Yeah, you have this tech talk recently, that really spoke to me where you talked about how you don't believe that there are parts of you that are, like, inherently bad, that need to let go sit in a corner and hate themselves? And will you talk about that for a second? Because that very much spoke to some of my experience? And like where I am today?

  Frankie Simmons 12:51

  Yeah, I think that was something that I feel like found me as I was just like, basically learning about the nervous system, and how like, your body responds to trauma, because I suddenly started to see all of these parts of myself that I just like, hated and thought were so annoying, as like, Oh, these are actually very functional responses to like, the way that I was taught to view the world and through the situations that I was put into. And I think it really helped me think about like, what if I just got to sit down and have like conversations with those parts of myself and be like, What are you like looking for right now? And what do you need, and starting to move from, like, a default assumption of self trust. And I think sometimes when we hear about self trust, like, I remember one time, a mentor of mine looked at me and said, however you are feeling in this moment is the correct way for you to feel. And I was like, no, like, I feel selfish. Sometimes I get like, jealous of other people. I get like mad. And there's like, all these parts of myself like that are obviously not correct. And being able to see like, okay, yeah, not like however I feel it's however, I get to act and like, that's the correct way for me to act. But like, however I am feeling is an understandable way for me to feel. And it's a feeling that I need to have to be able to like stay in relationship with myself. And that was so helpful to be able to, like hold with tension, because I think a lot of times we hear people talking about like self trust, and we hear, Oh, I just get to go do whatever I want now. And obviously we know that that doesn't work out. And that isn't kind to other people. But being able to be like No, any part of me deserves a conversation with me. So yeah, I don't believe that there's any part of me that was created to just be told to go sit down and shut up and never be heard from again. But I also don't believe that there was any one part of me that was designed to be like, put in the driver's seat of my life and call all the shots with no authority. And I really try to relate to myself as I just have a really wide board of advisors and I get to like go sit down at the table with all these different things and be like, What are you asking me for? And how can I create something that is a loving ecosystem for like all the different parts of me, which is just so much slower and requires so much more intention than doing what I was doing before which is just like reading Acting out of like whatever trauma or like also reacting in like distrust of myself, which was also this like gut assumption that would just like always take me in one direction. So just being allowed to stay in conversation with myself and move from the assumption that there's like something here that I get to here was very just a big game changer for me

  KC Davis 15:24

  it reminds me of, you know, I talk a lot about like self care and caring for yourself in the moment, and people started to ask like, well, but if I care for myself, right now, I'm gonna fuck myself over later, right? Like caring for myself now is not doing my dishes, but then I don't have dishes. And it reminds me of this concept of, I had to learn to see like the three versions of myself like past me, present me and future me, and to learn how to dance with all three of them, and try to take care of all three of them. Right? Yes, sometimes I want something pleasurable in this moment. But I also want to take care of future me. Yeah. And so like, I try to shepherd my present self, like in a loving direction towards the kinds of pleasure that don't harm future me. Right. And also, though, recognizing that sometimes I want to react from my past self and all those traumas and all those hurts and, and like what would feel good in that moment to that little girl? And recognizing that, like, sometimes she gets to do that? Yeah, like, it's not inherently bad to react out of that space, as long as I'm not hurting other people. And I'm still taking care of present me and future me. And that's reminds me of that same concept, right? Where it's like, but you're doing it lovingly. And I think that what happened to me and I think what happens to a lot of people on a self improvement journey, whether it's religion, or sobriety, or mental health, or wellness or therapy journey, like I got to this place where my worthiness and my ability to feel as though I was worthy of love was contingent on doing good. And I don't mean doing good acts. I mean, like making therapeutic progress. Yeah, I had this binary, where it's like, I'm either doing good, or I'm doing bad. Yeah. And if I was in a really bad place, it was like, Well, I'm doing bad right now. Like, I'm not making good choices. I'm feeling really distressing feelings, like I'm not feeling at peace. And then if I was doing the things I was supposed to write, if I was meditating every morning, and I was going to help people once a week, and I was always being honest, and I was never being selfish. And I was always being humble, like, then I was doing good. And the whole journey of self improvement was just hijacked by this belief that I was going to self improve into a state of being worthy of being loved. And for that reason, I for seven years, I meditated every single morning. And when I stopped doing that, I experienced so much more real growth. Yeah. And so like, I feel like in some ways, I'm like living in the upside down when it comes to my own healing.

  Frankie Simmons 18:22

  Yeah, no, I feel exactly the same way. Like, I looked back at the version of myself that made her bed every single morning and worked out all the time. And like had, you know, did like all the routines and everything. And I was like, That person was so scared. And like, so unhealthy, like the version of myself that seemed to have it the most together was actually running so far away from herself. And I think, yeah, for me, like just allowing myself to watch like, the bachelor religiously, and just being like, Yes, this is like a toxic cesspool of a show. And that's okay. Like, I'm allowed to not and always take the high road and every single choice that I ever make constantly,

  KC Davis 18:59

  Yes, I can just fucking rest. Not every single move every single thought every single like, yeah, that just really hit me because that is so true. And it's hard, I think, to talk in like public arena about that journey. Because like, there are people and and that was me, at one point, it is important to look at like, what kind of entertainment and what like, does it have effect on my mind? And is that helping me? Is that functional for me? Or, you know, am I dressing from a place of freedom and pleasure? Or am I dressing from a place of fear and insecurity? Like, I'm not saying that there's not value to those things? Because I think sometimes when I talk about these things in my journey, it almost sounds like I'm telling people like, do whatever, yeah, fine. Like don't try to figure out your motives on anything. And I'm not saying that, obviously. But I am saying that like, when you come from that place where you just like, feel like you aren't even worthy. You just can't be Be okay with not being okay.

  Frankie Simmons 20:02

  Not treating yourself like a project that has to move forward every single day or else why are you even here like having inherent worth to your existence that is just worth, like experiencing and enjoy, even if it's not going anywhere is like for me, it was just like such a mind blowing shift in how I approached my life at all. Because, yeah, there was just this constant journeying to an end point that needed to always be happening, or else, there was no point for me to be here and being able to settle into like, actually, I deserve to be here like point blank, like, I could not do anything for the rest of my life. And I still would like have inherent value that just like flipped my world on its head,

  KC Davis 20:38

  Not feeling like everything you did was either like moving up the mountain, or like slipping back.

  Frankie Simmons 20:43

  Yeah,

  KC Davis 20:43

  You know, like, there was this linear space that you always existed in and you're either moving forward and doing good, or you were like slipping back into your old ways.

  Frankie Simmons 20:53

  On the good place where like they every single action or thought you ever taken has like a either a red or a green number next to it. That was like my whole life.

  KC Davis 21:02

  Totally. And, you know, you mentioned like, doing the things that you're supposed to make you feel good versus do make you feel good. And I feel like there was this place of it feels good to do all of those things. Because it feels good to be a person that I know would be accepted by the community and the culture that I've chosen. Yeah. Like, there is pleasure in that. Yeah. But that's really different than guy call that like third person pleasure, which is like I'm outside of my so I'm enjoying watching myself, right? Yeah. Like I'm outside of myself and looking at myself and going like, Yes, I approve. Yeah, but here's the thing that is no different than how I was operating when I was using drugs. I just had a different place. Like when I was using idolized, like every tragic drug addict character, right, like Kurt Cobain, and, and really Bradley Knoll, and all these people and and they were miserable. And they did not meet good ends. But I wanted to be them. Because when I looked at them, I felt like people thought they were cool. And they were worthy. And they were deep, but they were artistic. And there was just something so inherently beautiful about them. And so interesting about them. And so like I did everything that I could, because I didn't feel worthy enough to be good. I thought I'll just work really hard to be worthy enough at being bad and tragic. And I think that there was this part of me that believed that I wasn't worthy of love, and I wasn't going to get love. But being saved could feel close enough. That if I could be tragic enough, if I could be broken enough that somebody would want to save me, and that would feel close enough to love that I would feel like I could breathe. And so everything was this third person pleasure where it's like, okay, I'm on the outside looking and going, okay, that thing I did, that's cool enough, that thing I did, that's beautiful enough, that thing I did that, you know, and I was very much sort of like a hippie when I was using like, I was definitely like selfish and arrogant and immature. But I still was very much like, let's all love each other, like, you know, let's go to a field and spin around barefoot. Like, I was still very much like yearning for this connection to something bigger and greater and beautiful. And so I just but it was that same thing. And I think recognizing that here. I was like, seven years sober. And I was still just as preoccupied with myself as I was when I was using drugs. Yeah, I was still just as preoccupied with this, like third person, reflection of myself and being good enough for the culture that I chose. It was the exact same thing. It was just a different culture, a different set of rules, a different set of people, a different community, trying to be good enough for that community so that I could feel okay. But when I started kind of the journey that you and I are talking about was the first time like when I let go of that perfectionism of like, it's okay to not always try and self improve. For the first time in my life. I didn't think about myself so much. And then I knew what real freedom was. For the first time in my life, I was experiencing my life in the first person. You know what I mean? Where you could like, look at birds and be like, that makes me really happy. Yeah. And you could do small simple things and be like, that makes me happy and listen to any music that actually makes you happy no matter how like stupid that music is.

  Frankie Simmons 24:36

  Yeah.

  KC Davis 24:37

  And it doesn't have to be rated on a scale of righteousness or a scale of healthiness or a scale of whatever. But yeah, I just think that it's hard to put that into words.

  Frankie Simmons 24:50

  Totally. What did that shift like? Feel like to the first person pleasure if you can think of like the first time that you experienced that like was there any like tan double shift or

  KC Davis 25:01

  I think it was slow. Like, when I was dating my husband, he very much had a huge influence on that shift for me because like, he is someone who, you know, when we met, like, I was very, like devout, and he was just as devout. But without all of the perfectionism, because what had happened was that I had gone through that really intense rehab. And then I went to church. And like, I got the whole package of like, all of the rules and regulations that went along with this like book of the Bible. Whereas my husband, he read everything in the house until there was nothing left to read. And then he read the Bible. And he describes his experience as literally reading the Bible and going Fuck, I believe this, like no control over the act of faith in that moment. Yeah. But because that was his first like, he did not grow up that way. So then if he reads that he connects with it, then he walks into church and goes, What the hell is this? Like nothing about what he was seeing matched what he was reading? You know what I mean? So he never had that, like, oh, I need to analyze every thought, Yeah, he definitely grew up and became mature and takes accountability and cares about people and, and like, is a wonderful WW, I think, really healthy person. But I think primarily, like, exists in that like, first person, space. And so I think it was slow. Because what so anyways, the point is, when I met him, I was still in that space. And so I was constantly going through this, like, do I like him too much? Yeah, because I'm not supposed to like him too much, because then I'll get attached. And I won't be able to see clearly whether it's right, whether it's the one that God has for me, or whether it's healthy enough, because like, I had just really been taught to believe that my base desires were dangerous. Yeah, because they were going to cloud, either my own judgment or what was healthy or the will of God, like you could put any of those things in that fill in the blank, right? And so like, I was wracked with conflict the whole time, because I really loved him. And I really wanted to be with him. And I was afraid that I loved him too much. And I wasn't allowed to love someone too much. And that if I loved him too much, he would be taken away, or that like, I would do something wrong. Yeah. So that it was sucked. And then we got married, and I kind of calmed down slightly. Okay. Nobody can take him away now. And I think it was just like this slow movement for me. And people ask me all the time, how did I come to a place where I talk about like care tasks being morally neutral? And the truth is, is like it was this? Like, it had nothing to do with actual care tasks. It was just this journey to a place of like, all of these things that I had moralized Yeah. And then being like, well, maybe it doesn't actually matter. Like, what if things just like didn't matter that much? Yeah. So yeah, I think it was just like, such a slow movement. And, and like, I also haven't been to church in a really long time. And I think that's been really helpful. Yeah, for not like getting into that space. And I'll occasionally go and experience it as, like a beautiful moment. But it's been really helpful to like, step away and just exist. And to to approach it from that perspective. Yeah. So you are in a relationship right now? And is that relationship like how is that fitting into sort of like your journey of like, non pressure healing and growth?

  Frankie Simmons 28:34

  Yeah, I think I thought of it when you were describing how like your husband like just watching the way that he related to, like, his spirituality and stuff was like shifted things for you. Similarly, in my fiance is like, very grew up secular doesn't have any of like that programming. And I distinctly remember one time where like, we were on a camping trip with their family. And we were like, reaching the evening, and Ian just like, pulled out this little like Bluetooth speaker and turn it on to a song that they liked, and put it next to them and just like sat down in a chair and just was like, This is what I'm doing right now. I'm sitting in this chair, and I'm listening to music and me being like, that's just nothing I would ever allow myself to do. I remember when the pandemic started and their job, like furloughed them, and they were like, Okay, I'm gonna go home, and I'm going to watch Star Wars for the next month, like, I'm going to watch every Star Wars thing that has ever existed. And I would sit in the living room and watch Star Wars all day, and I would be in the bedroom being like, maybe I need to break up with this person, because why are they not focused on caring for themselves and learning new things? And like, you know, maybe we have fundamental differences. And then two weeks later, being like, actually, they're having fun, and I'm not so like, who's actually winning in this situation? And so it's been very interesting to watch them just like approach their life with so much more like moral neutrality. And so they are somebody who just gives themselves permission to really be where they're at and very rarely do they question like, even stuff about our relationship that like we have I have a very unique style of like, how we run our home and how we handle our finances and all of that stuff. And I'm constantly like, there's a part of my brain that's constantly in the like, what if we're doing this wrong? And like, what if the fact that this looks different than other people's relationships means we're actually in a terrible relationship, and we just don't realize it yet. And Ian's, like, No, this is just working for us. Like there's nothing in them that questions things that they enjoy. And that's been very wild to live around for, like the past four years. And I think so much of my healing has come down to just them, I would get up at 10am. And they'd be like, I'm so proud of you for getting up at 10am. And that was just like, wildly healing for me to just have somebody that was like, you're enjoying yourself. And that's fine and could like, get in the middle of those thoughts, spirals, and just make space for me to like, exist. So.

  KC Davis 30:53

  I think also, for me, the like you mentioned being tender hearted. And I think that this like season for me, and however long I've been in it is very much marked by the idea of being tender to myself, and not from like a pity. Place of like, you know what, you screwed up, you failed, but that's okay. But from a place of like, I get to give myself tenderness for the sole reason that tenderness is lovely to experience. Yeah, not because I deserve it, not because it's good for me not because it's healthy, not because it's going to encourage me to be better or anything. Just that, like you can truly just decide,

  Frankie Simmons 31:40

  Yeah, like just I'm going to be on my own side. Because I deserve to have somebody on my side all the time, which I think it's interesting how like, for myself, I've noticed that when I get to that space of like, I don't actually have to be moving towards anything, I don't actually have to be like, I just get to be accepting of myself. Because that is an experience that is good for me to have, how much healing that actually creates, like how it actually moves me a lot of times towards the things that I was trying so hard to get towards. It's always interesting whenever I make tic TOCs, I have this series where I'm just just like, list off a bunch of things and be like, Oh, that makes sense. Like, it makes sense that you're feeling this way or whatever. And like that's the whole thing is just like saying, this makes sense that you're in this space. And every single time there are people in the comments being like, Okay, so now what, like, okay, I get it makes sense. But now what do I do? And every time I'm like, if that's the question that you're asking, then you have not yet given yourself space, you don't actually get that it makes sense if you're because when we are in full acceptance of something, we're usually not like, offended by its presence. Like when we actually are in complete understanding that something makes sense. We're usually not like in complete urgency to get it to stop existing. And so being able to be in a space of like, just allowing myself to stay with that. I think we really underestimate the healing power of just like validation, and just being an acceptance of ourselves. And like what just that can do all by itself.

  KC Davis 32:55

  It reminds me a little bit of like, those horribly awful like church things, the way people would say, like, God won't give you a relationship until you're okay, on your own and you want a relationship. And so you would find, I don't know about you, but like, I would find myself being like, how do I make myself not want a relationship so that I'll get the relationship I want? Yeah, right. Or, like, how do I get myself to not feel this one way in order to control this other thing that I want? Yeah. And just like the freedom of realizing that like, either there is a God, and he just gives things to people because, or there's not a god, and you can just have things because, like, there really isn't like a bait and switch. Yeah, of like, you have to make yourself happy on your own. Yeah, before you can be in a relationship. Let me tell you like, I was created for companionship, like, I never felt 100% Okay. Yeah. When I was alone, and that wasn't like a fault. Yeah, that wasn't like, oh, you you know have to have others validation or like, you're not healthy enough on your own or complete enough on your own? Like, could I live a happy and fulfilling life? If I didn't have a partner or family? Like, yeah, I could. But that would never not be something that my soul crave. Yeah. And even that, in and of itself was like, such a huge place of being like, oh, there's nothing like immature about me. Or like, I'm not unhealthy. I don't know. Like, there's nothing like unenlightened about. Yeah, like there's some plane of existence. I could be at where I stopped being like a social creature. And I mean, not everybody necessarily wants a monogamous relationship or children or to live with someone but like, we all need the kind of connection that like we need. Yeah. And it's just so It's such a stupid myth that you don't deserve those connections unless you can get to a place where you don't want those connections. Yeah. Or need those connections.

  Frankie Simmons 35:09

  Yeah. And that I think there's a lot of ways where, like, you know, I think it's interesting that the word like needy is used as an insult when it's like I'm a living being, which means that I just like have needs and like, I'm a human, which means I also have emotional needs as well as physical needs. Like that's just a fact of my existence. But the fact that we are so often punished and being like, told that you're supposed to heal out of like, having needs is just creates a lot of chaos.

  KC Davis 35:35

  Do you have anything that you want to talk about?

  Frankie Simmons 35:37

  One thing that I really appreciate about your content is, I don't think you talk about it as much anymore. But to my understanding, you're still a Christian. Yes. And I really appreciate that. Because I think I would no longer identify as a Christian, but I also love faith and love spirituality. And I feel like every time I talk about, it's kind of similar, when I talk about being a Texan online, I have to like, prepare myself to defend Texas, against all these other people. And there's a similar thing, like whenever I talk about, like, my religious deconstruction, I have to prepare for like all these people that are going to come into the comments and be like, yeah, all religion is terrible and evil and needs to go away. I'm just curious, like how that felt to you to like, go through this journey, and come into like, an authentic definition of your own faith.

  KC Davis 36:22

  Yeah, I think that it helps that I didn't grow up in church. So like, I very much I was anti religion for a long time. And so I understand, like, where that comes from. And I think it's valid. And you know, at the end of the day, my experience with my faith was an experience that can't be challenged. Like theology can be challenged, and like, what you believe about the way the world works can be challenged, and what's right and wrong can be challenged, and dogma can be challenged, and tradition can be challenged. And like I very much am someone who like went through a deconstruction process, but retained my faith almost exclusively, like everything else kind of fell out. But because what remained was like being 16, and broken and sitting on a bench staring at a cow pasture, begging for there to be something in the world, more than me, that could be personal, like not just like spirit of the universe, because like I needed something a little more than that. Yeah. And there's this feeling as if there was like this presence that would come and sit next to me and be quiet. Like that was what really took me back was like, I'd always sort of seen this idea of God as like someone who would have a lot to say to you, yeah, about what you do, right, and what you do wrong, and all the things you need to know. And to have this experience, like in my worst moments, where it just felt like there was this presence that sat next to me and looked at the same place as me was so real. And it happened really slowly over time. And I don't think that there's just anything that could ever be done or said that would change the fact that that happened to me. Yeah, you know what I mean? And there are some aspects of Christian doctrine that I think just resonate with me deeply from my own experience. Like, I don't think that I'm inherently bad. But I certainly identify with being like, inherently imperfect, and for a long time, even, like, inherently broken and inherently find certain things about life difficult. And I find a lot of comfort in a theology that basically says, like, there's a God, that's not surprised by that. Yeah, who wasn't expecting anything different? Yeah. That the only person surprised by your own sort of mistakes, or fumbles or downfalls or whatever is you like, you know, and so, yeah, I think that because so much of that was just like, deeply personal, that theology around that can change and dogma around that can change and all that kind of stuff. And it just doesn't bother me, because that'll always have been my experience. I also think that the trauma that people have experienced at the hands of religion is really real. Yeah. And I think the other part of it, though, is like because my experience was this like, very personal, real visceral, like experiential thing. And because I do like, believe there is a God, I don't have this fear that I feel like a lot of religious people seem to have where it's like, the world is spinning out and we need to correct it. I don't know. I just don't really think God needs our help. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, what are we worried about? If like, we think that There's like a loving creator of the world that loves us and is going to take care of us in ways that we don't understand, either now or later, or whatever. So I don't know, I think it's all valid. I think that there was a time when I felt all those same things. And I feel like my encounter with God was him being like, it's okay to feel those things. So like, who am I to have any thought differently about somebody else's feelings about those than how I thought God felt about it with me? You know what I mean? Like, I don't know,

  Frankie Simmons 40:30

  No, love all of that. And I think it is, like, definitely so valid for people to have like, their experiences and their hurt and to like, have really complicated feelings about religion as a whole. Because of that, I think there's a space where like, I know, I felt in myself, there's a different, it's again, going back to the way that that fundamentalism, like rewires your brain to view things that way, even when you step out of that specific religious practice. And I think there's a way where sometimes I hear people talk about like, when humanity ascends. And if everybody was like, as smart and intelligent as we could be, like, everybody would believe the way that I believe, which is that there is nothing and we would have no organized religion. To me, it feels very similar in some ways to the like, evangelical way of like, viewing the world where like, I need to convince everybody else to get on board with my version of things. And I think giving people space to like, have their own experiences, whatever those are, until, like, be with what is like really true for them. And know that it doesn't have to be like in contradiction or in conflict with like, what your experience and your truth is, is just a really beautiful place to land.

  KC Davis 41:35

  Yeah, I think that when you have like, when everything is kind of like a house of cards, almost, you know what I mean? Where it's like, it wasn't really based on like an experience, it wasn't based on a searching, you know what I mean? Like, there was no process of like, I searched for something, and I found something. And that thing was valuable to me. And then from there, I sort of began to learn some theology and walk through that. And then, you know, deconstructed from a lot of that theology. And ironically enough, like going to seminary was probably the biggest part of that deconstruction was learning like, oh, the majority of people talking about what the Bible says or don't know what they're talking about. So I think that I could definitely see how, you know, if I had that experience, that if the uniquely in that way, feeling a lot of fear about somebody challenging some part of my belief, because it would feel as though like that one little piece of like, thread that you pulled on it too hard, might like, unravel the whole tapestry. And I think that I just kind of came to a place where I was, like, I'm gonna pull on the thread. Because if it's real, like, whatever I come out on the other end with will be sufficient, I guess, like, I don't even know if like real is the right word, because I think that somebody who pulled the tapestry and came out in a different place than me, like, maybe not being a person of faith anymore. Like, I don't want to say that that was not real for them. But I think that, like, whatever you have, and whatever you need, like, you're gonna still have it at the end. Like, I just think that not having fear, when you pull that tapestry, because like, either there is something that is real there for you. And there's no amount of pulling on the doubts and the questions that's gonna make that real thing disappear. Or there is something real out there that you have yet to encounter, whether that is some sort of faith, or that is just sort of like your experience with your own truth and life and something that makes your life worth living like, and better to pull all those strings so that whatever this sort of facade that was there can kind of go away, and you can move forward and find what resonates deeply with your soul. Because I think it's at the end of like all of it. I have seen people from different faiths than me and from no faith in a place where something deeply good and deeply sacred and deeply real, was speaking to their soul in a way that they could tell that that same thing has spoken to the souls of other people, for 1000s and 1000s of years, like says something very viscerally real. And I've never seen that and then thought, like, well, but that's not real. Like, I've always just thought, like, I recognize that that's what I feel, too. And that's enough for me, you know what I mean? Like, I don't really know what beyond that matters. Like I could certainly be wrong about a whole lot after that. Yeah, I just I've never seen someone of another faith, have a deeply religious experience and not felt like they were like tapping into the same source that I was, yeah. And so whether one of us is right, or one of us is wrong, or we're both right, or we're both wrong, or both, whatever. It just sort of seemed like who am I to say? Yeah, this has been so lovely. Yeah. And we you tell everybody like where they can find you and follow you and hear more deep thoughts.

  Frankie Simmons 44:58

  Yeah, so I am on tick tock at Hey Frankie Simmons and Instagram at Frankie Doodle Dandy. And I have a digital newsletter called letters from home that you can sign up for there. And it's a fun time.

  KC Davis 45:12

  Thank you so much for coming down here and taking a little road trip to sit and stare into my backyard and talk about life.

  Frankie Simmons 45:20

  Yeah, thank you for having me. It's been a joy.

  KC Davis 45:22

  Awesome as a reminder because I never ever do this. I do have a website called struggle. care.com I do have a book called How to keep house while drowning and if you don't follow me on Tik Tok or Instagram, you should do that. Domestic blisters on Tik Tok and struggle care on Instagram. And I guess if your grandma wants to follow me on Facebook, I'm struggling here on Facebook. So thank you guys. Take care of yourselves.