59: A Grief Observed

This episode is an unusual one as I’m joined by three different guests. We are getting a different perspective on grief as we wade into the messy complexity of interacting with someone deep into grief and being the person in grief who is trying to field all those interactions. These three people have experienced grief in losing someone very close to them. I ask them the same questions about what people said and did that were helpful gestures AND those that were not helpful, along with what they wish people would have done and said. Their varying answers are insightful and revealing, helping us to understand that there is no one right answer to navigating grief. Being human is complex and messy, and there is no better example of that than when grief and loss slam into our lives. Join us to hear the different perspectives on grief from my friends, Shayna, Rachel, and Portia.

*Sensitivity warning: We are talking about death in this episode, so be aware that our specific topics are infant death, spousal death, and the death of a close friend.

 Show Highlights:

●      My first guest, Portia Burch:

○      How she lost her close friend, Tish, unexpectedly, around the same time as another meaningful loss in her life

○      The value of those who “bear witness” to our loss

○      How Portia responds to those who ask, “What do you need? What can I do for you?”

○      Why Portia wanted people to let her be, act normal around her, and not expect too much from her

○      Why it’s good to ask someone how they would like for us to proceed as they deal with a loss

○      How we can rephrase our questions into statements and listen to context clues to better follow up with someone during grief

○      Things people say that are not helpful during grief: comments like “this will get easier,” and “she’s in a better place”

○      What it really means to comfort someone

○      What we should talk more about the joy of a person’s life instead the fact that someone is gone

○      Why Portia says, “Grief is what we feel when our love has no place to go.” 

●      My next guest, Rachel:

○      How she lost her husband, Jim, in 2017, just before Father’s Day

○      How Rachel responds to those who ask, “What do you need? What can I do for you?”

○      How Rachel thought of grief and the people in proximity to it as ripples on a pond

○      Ways in which people were actually helpful with tangible support and care

○      Why Rachel vigilantly safeguarded how her husband’s death was explained to her kids

○      Rachel’s take on what to say and do to help someone experiencing acute grief

●      My next guest, Shayna Raphael:

○      How she lost her daughter, Claire, eight years ago as an infant

○      How Shayna responds to those who ask, “What do you need? What can I do for you?”

○      What people did for Shayna and her family that were helpful actions

○      Things people did or said that were NOT helpful: comments about religion, closure, “a better place,” etc.

○      Why it isn’t helpful when people try to force comfort on a grieving person

○      Why those who show up and “enter into the messiness” are comforting

○      How Shayna found help and support through a Facebook group

○      Why Shayna and her husband founded the Claire Bear Foundation to provide safe sleep spaces to families across the US

 Resources and Links:

Connect with our guests: The Claire Bear Foundation

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to Struggle Care. My name is KC Davis, I'm your host. And today's episode is about grief. But it's going to be a little bit different than the way you might have heard grief talked about in the past, what I wanted to do was sort of wade into the messy complexity of what it's like, when you're trying to interact with someone that is in grief, and what it feels like to be a person in grief, trying to field all of those interactions. So what I've done is I've gotten together three people who have experienced grief, they have lost somebody really, really important to them. And I asked them all the same questions. I asked them how they felt about the question, what do you need? What can I do? I asked them if they were ever able to find an answer to that question that actually helped them. I asked them what people said or did that helped them in their time of grief. And I asked them their opinions about things that people said or did that were well meaning but ultimately not helpful. I love the varying answers and the different experiences that came out of these interviews. And I hope that they are helpful to everyone that is both grieving and might one day know someone that is grieving. And I hope that at the end of the day, it's an invitation to the idea that there is no right answer, that being human is a messy experience. And that ultimately, it's an invitation to wade into the complexity of that messiness. Knowing that you are getting it right isn't the important point. Oh, and before we get started, I did want to let you guys know that we're going to be talking about death. Obviously, in this podcast, we're gonna be talking about infant death, spousal death, and the death of a friend. Portia, thank you so much for joining me.

  Portia 1:42

  Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

  KC Davis 1:44

  So you lost a friend recently.

  Portia 1:48

  I did. Her name is Tish Leticia was my Tesh, she was my ex partner. But one of my very best friends lost her on Valentine's Day, no less, very unexpected. She had diabetes. She was healthy. But she also suffered from high high glucose levels, low glucose levels. And unfortunately, she went to sleep and had a low and did not wake back up. And it was even harder because was right around Superbowl Sunday. And we had been chatting back and forth because my team was playing and talking about snacks. And I had sent our texts on Saturday didn't hear from her on Sunday got a phone call on Monday about her being gone. And Iraq, my entire world. Iraq, my entire world. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a little bit more intense. I know that people that are listening can't see. But behind me is my love you dad picture because I lost my father to in 2018. And those two were so incredibly close, even beyond like our relationship up until he died, she would go over and check on him just like I would. So it was a big, it was like loss on top of loss and all kinds of united and congealed. And so yeah,

  KC Davis 2:52

  yeah, I will say one of the things I feel like we don't talk about enough when we lose someone is that like, there's value. There's like a real tangible value to someone who has borne witness to your life. I was with a girlfriend that drove in nine hours just to go to a concert with me. And we're driving home. And this concert was like when we listened to when we were teenagers when we both had addictions. And like, we just gone through everything together. And as I'm driving, and I was thinking back as to the person I was and kind of looking back at her with compassion, even though she was kind of a fuckup. And thinking like this person sitting next to me, was witness to that person. And in a really tangible way. Like, she reminds me that person was real. And that person was worth loving. And she keeps that person alive. And she like she was a witness like I can everyone in my life. I can tell them about it. They can know about it, but like she bore witness to that. Mm hmm. And that's like such a huge thing we lose when we lose someone.

  Portia 3:48

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a Tish had lost her father too. And so when we were together as well, my dad got sick, and my dad got sick. And we lost him three days shy of a year of his diagnosis. So it was really, really fast. So kind of when you say like being bearing witness, she knew like my relationship with my father. And she knew how hard of a loss it was. And it was something that I was able to kind of hold close, where I didn't have to explain those feelings of missing him. And so losing her ties it all together, you know, so? Yeah. So I'm sure like everyone else you heard the question, what do you need? What can I do for you? And that's kind of what I've been asking everybody like, what is your feelings kind of emotional reaction or your experience with that question? I never know what to say. Because how do you know what you need? Like grief is so bizarre, even when you've experienced it even when you've had it happen multiple times every time it's like the first time. So knowing what I need Chicago's being Chicago behind me, it doesn't make any sense. So I generally just look at somebody and say, I have no idea. Recognize that I'm going to have moments where I am enraged, or I am full of sadness where I can't move

  Or sometimes I'll just need to tell you a story. You have to listen to it. And just let me kind of speak through it. So I don't know. I mean, honestly, I just ask for people to just let me be, and not expect too much from me. And does that for you mean, leave you alone? Or does that mean act normal? Or does that mean just be normal? But don't expect my normal self? Yeah, it's kind of like it's be normal be normal. Because I don't do well, with a lot of like, a lot of checking in on me that doesn't, because then I feel like I have to respond. And I know that I don't have to, like my mind says, You don't have to respond. But then my head's like, Oh, but I have to answer. So just kind of act like everything is normal. But when I reach out to you be there. And that was a struggle to kind of actually have that expectation. I guess I have somebody expect or have me expect somebody to be there for me when I don't know when that's going to be and then even when being there for me. Does that mean just listening to me? Does that mean giving me a meal? Does that mean coming and sitting with me? So it's really just kind of Yeah, just acting normal and waiting for whatever is going to pop up in that moment of this is what I need. I'm broken right now. Come sit with me or enraged right now. Come sit with me. Or I'm hungry, and I can't eat right now. Come sit with me and feed me. So I guess like an on call support system?

  KC Davis 6:09

  Yeah. And it's been interesting to hear the different responses to that. Because there are people that are like, I hate that question now. Because it was just so often, and I didn't know that then there were people that have said, I never knew what to say. But every time someone said it, I felt like they loved me. Like I appreciated that people kept saying it. There are people that said, I hated that people would just show up and do things, I needed space. And there are people who have said, I'm so glad someone just sent groceries to the door because I wouldn't have known what to do. And so it's like everyone is so different. And one of the things that I did sort of figure out to do with a friend that lost someone was when I had reached out to her, I finally like had the wherewithal to say to her at the end of the conversation. Do you want me to give you some space? Or would you like me to check in again soon? Yes. That was like, I don't know why it never occurred to me to ask because I'm always thinking that like, I don't know what to do. Would it be helpful? I don't do too much. I do too little. But I don't think it occurs to us to just ask someone, like, how would they like us to proceed?

  Portia 7:06

  You know, as humans, especially when we care about somebody, and we love somebody, it's instinctual for someone to fix them or fix the situation? And a question that I asked a lot when I'm helping other people or dealing with other people, even at a loss is, what do you need right now? Do you need somebody to fix something? Or do you just need somebody to listen? And that's very much the same question. Do you want me to keep checking up on you? Or do you want me randomly to check up but ask another person? What does that look like? And you made a good point, like somebody said that people would just show up, and that's annoying. And that absolutely is but then sending groceries is different. That is something where somebody does not have to be prepared to have face to face contact or try to communicate, but they're still having needs met. And I think that's a very intentional way of kind of taking care of people with also honoring the space that might be needed. Yeah, it's so tricky. I keep saying that. But you just don't know, you don't know until you're in it. And then when you're in it, that can also change the question, what do you need is a very loving question. And it's also a very confusing question. And it can be so overwhelming, because then you start thinking about what do I need? And that can send you right back into another grief spiral.

  KC Davis 8:16

  Yeah, you can never lose by being literal. Like, I think a lot of listeners might struggle with social interaction in general, or have had a difficult time with social interactions that don't have kind of set rules. And this is kind of one of them, where it's like, okay, there are some things I'm supposed to do, but maybe everybody's different. And there's, it's like, I don't want to mess up. But I don't want to do this. And I think one of the things that I think is really interesting is like I primarily started listening to your tic tock for your anti racism work. And one of the parallels that I've been thinking about while doing the interviews for this episode is this idea of, I'm so afraid to get it wrong, that I don't engage at all. And I know that if I do get it wrong, someone's going to have feelings about that. And that's okay. But that's not a reason to not engage. And it was like, I feel like I wanted this episode to kind of be this invitation to like, step into the messiness of human grief, knowing that you're not going to get it right. But you're, it's not about you.

  Like it's okay, it's not about you, you might piss your friend off, but like, okay, you'll be fine. Right? Right. That's a beautiful parallel, because you can't take on the feelings of somebody else when somebody else is grieving. So if the person that you're trying to reach out to the person that you're trying to help is like, Fuck you, I don't need you right now. That is not a personal affront. That is somebody that is just feeling a lot at that moment. And they cannot think about thinking about somebody else's feelings while they're trying to navigate this grief because grief can be so crippling, it can be so just polarizing and sometimes we snap back. Sometimes we just shut down and it's not anything personal. But it's also beautiful for people to keep trying. Because you're gonna get it right at some point. It is like the most loving thing because it's like

  If I'm going to take that risk, I'll be the one willing to fail. Because I know that you're in such a difficult spot, you're in such a human spot, you're like, like, I will take that risk on myself, I'll be willing to be the one that overstepped or under stepped or said the wrong thing like, not that and I do want to listen, I don't want to just keep saying the wrong thing, you know, after someone says, Hey, that's not healthy.

  But yeah, so was there anything for you? Like, did you ever come up with an answer to that you kind of mentioned saying, like, hey, just be there for me. But was Did you ever come up with an answer that felt like was helpful? To you and to others?

  Portia 10:35

  I would say after I said, I'm not sure to one person. If somebody if that same person asked me again, my best answer is like, don't ask me, please don't ask me. I will let you know. I don't want to be asked that question by the same person multiple times. Because my instinct is say, I don't know. And I'm not going to know by the next time you ask me. And if I do know that, I'm going to let you know. So that'd be like, that's probably the best answer is like, let me just let you know, let me reach out to you. Let me let you know what that looks like. I've got friends that I've been able to text at two o'clock in the morning, when I wake up just in a panic of grief. And they just listen, they might not even read it till the next day. And the next day, they might come back. And so you've got that off your chest. Did you need anything else from me? And I think that that follow up question of it's like, did you need anything else from me? I just got myself to an answer is a beautiful thing. You know, I don't know what I need. But if I tell you what I need, and you follow it up with what else? Is there anything else that you need? Is there anything else that I can do for you? Because I've already given you one answer, you've done something for me. Don't keep asking me what I need. But let me have the space to tell you. If I need something else, I will let you know. Yeah, I wonder also like, I feel like I always default to the question. What do you need? What do you what are you with whatever. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I am kind of becoming aware of that that does put that does sort of give, I don't want to say a burden. But it does, like put a person into a spot to then need to do something or think of something. And again, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. But it is sort of also occurring to me that like I can express the same sentiment and openness with a statement as well. Like I can say, you may not know what you need. But I'm here, hey, if you think of something that you need that I can do for you, I'm here. Like maybe I could, you know, not necessarily like one's right or wrong. But just as an especially when you're mentioning like as a follow up like, Okay, I don't have to keep asking you. But maybe after the first time I asked you when I see you to talk about, hey, great to see you. You know, I know you're going through a hard time and just remember I'm here if you need something that's beautiful. And you said it's not a burden, it is a burden. And it's not a problem calling it a burden, because burden isn't inherently a bad thing. But again, you have to think about what that person is already going through that heaviness that they already have. And adding even the smallest expectation on top of that can be just kind of that one little thing that just sends everything shattering. So you know, that initial question is fine, but like you just said statements for the follow up, hey, just remember, if you need anything, if you need anything, I'm here, don't forget that you can reach out to me, I'm thinking about you all have these little things that are very much expressing that love and that care and then availability to the person without making that person feel like, okay, when I reach out to Rebecca, then I have to know exactly what I need in this moment. And I have to have this answer the next time I see her. Meanwhile, I'm still crying every single day because I lost this person and just having somebody that's willing to say I'm here when you need me.

  KC Davis 13:25

  And I also think like the people in my life that I would feel comfortable doing something without them asking. I know enough to be able to reasonably guess what they would or wouldn't want, right? Like, I know that certain members of my family would rather die than have me send them food. Like it really makes them uncomfortable. So I know not to do that. But I wouldn't know. I'll send some flowers. You know what I mean? Like, I think that there are people if I truly don't know someone well enough to be able to reasonably guess what might be helpful, then that's probably someone I want to ask or make statements to not somebody, I'm going to just like, assume and do something because you know, and you are right, it is a burden. And I think that's why a lot of us don't ask for help is because the burden of asking seems greater than the burden of doing

  Portia 14:12

  100% It's also important to listen to context clues or pay attention to the people that you want to support. People will say things like I just haven't been able to be eat. I haven't been able to drink water. I haven't been able to get my clothes done and those little context clues there so that if you offer like, Hey, do you need a meal? Hey, do you need help with laundry? Then those questions that you're asking are more specific to because you've been paying attention to what they're telling you that they haven't been able to do, which aligns with, okay, this is what I need help with. You know, I haven't been able to take my dog out for a walk all these little things that they're saying. So when you have somebody that's grieving and you want to be intentional in your support for them, you have to listen to everything that they're saying. And not just hearing that they're sad, or hearing that they miss that person. Because beyond that, those are feel

  lanes. But beyond those feelings are actions and other emotions that come with it, that slow everything down and just have to pay attention to who you're talking to and who you want to support.

  KC Davis 15:09

  And I think there's also it seems like there are things that I can do that would go along with what my normal interaction with that person would be like, if you're someone that's lost something, and I've never been to your house, I'm not just gonna show up to your house, I'm probably won't even offer to come to your house. But if you're my friend that I go see all the time. Maybe the next time I go see you, I just Oh, and I brought a coffee. Oh, when I bought some of these things, you know what I mean? Like, I don't need to drastic, and I mean, it's not a rule, right? Sometimes there are people that I'm going to show up in a way I've never showed up before, because we need to rally, but sort of paying attention to that, like, Okay, I would normally, you know, go to this person's house, or I would normally check up on this person via phone and say, Hey, I'd love to send some groceries your way? Or can I send some dinner for the kids or whatever, that's always a big one. So in terms of people's questions, and things that they have said, you know, have there been things that people have said to you while you were grieving this person, and why you are grieving this person that they thought were helpful that you just went, Oh, God, that's like, so not helpful.

  Portia 16:10

  A classic one is in a better place. Now. Another one is, it'll get easier, I absolutely hate that statement. Because grief doesn't get easier, it gets different. So those are two things, I absolutely hate hearing a better place to have like, I'm not going to have a conversation about the sky Daddy that might take the person that I love away from me, for what, right and the getting easier. Things don't have to be easier to be manageable. It's just it's part of who we are. Life isn't all about everything being easy and great. It's about how we manage it, how we learn to live with it. And having this understanding that again, it just gets different. That's letting me know that somebody understands that grief is going to come up and smack me in the face some days. And some days, I will be able to tell a story about the person that I lost with a laugh, and some anecdote or something silly that we talked about. And that can happen at any time. And those two things can happen in the same exact day. So those are the things. Yeah, those are probably the only two things that I really just do not like and that have not worked for me. They make me bristle. They make me feel like somebody expects me to have my grief on a timeline, that they expect me to stop being sad, after X amount of time, and then likely not be sad at all.

  KC Davis 17:29

  It really does open up the question of like, what does it really mean to comfort someone? Because I do want to comfort that people, we do want to share someone's burden, we do want to help alleviate their pain. But how do you do that in a way that is communicating to them something other than like, Hey, let me take this pain away from you. Like because maybe that's not what someone needs,

  Portia 17:53

  Right? Like comforting somebody is it's going to be like an individual basis type situation. I think also, too, when people try to comfort, they try to take on everything for that person to try to remove everything away from them. And that's also not fair. Because we cannot have any type of healing if people are stripping away our feelings and emotions from us as a way to try to make things better.

  KC Davis 18:14

  We're used to exactly like trying to fix it. Yeah, I'm trying to take that pain, and put some happy things on it and bring the pain level down and put the happy things on. And I think at the end of the day, that's just that person's journey, like it is your individual journey to walk through that pain. And yes, sometimes you will need hope and comfort. But I do think it's important to be aware that we're communicating hope and comfort in a way that is not again, putting that burden of like, hey, it's going to start to make me uncomfortable. If you're not wrapping it up at some point.

  Portia 18:47

  That's exactly it. That's gonna be my next thing is people get uncomfortable with other people's big feelings. But other people's big feelings are their big feelings and your discomfort is not their responsibility. So you know, if I'm going through something, and somebody says to me, Oh, God, you've been really sad for like three weeks, I should have and I might be sad for another three weeks. And you being uncomfortable about that? Is none of my business. If you're uncomfortable about it, then you need to go somewhere else for a while and maybe tap into why that is gonna be okay. But yeah, you cannot be somebody's support. If you find yourself uncomfortable with how somebody else expresses their feelings.

  KC Davis 19:28

  You know what's wild about that? And this is gonna sound wildly disrespectful when I first say it, but I promise it's going in a not disrespectful way. I recently my cat recently died. I'm not comparing Don't worry. But one of the things I have noticed is when people I literally just got even a card from my vet, like when people respond to comforting me about my cat. No one goes to it won't always be this hard. It's gonna get better like no one does any of that stuff they've all done. They don't try to point to her death. They always point to her life. They

  I always say she was so grateful to have you. She was such a beautiful thing and your family, what a wonderful thing you gave her. And what's weird about that is as I think about the way we as humans sort of automatically go to comforting a person that has lost a human in their life, we automatically go to talking about the loss and making the loss, okay? And I'm just in this moment, wondering if like, maybe we have it better. Maybe we're like, better equipped at handling animal deaths? Because like, wouldn't that be a more comforting thing for me to because it doesn't fix it. And it might actually be painful to hear that, but it'd be joining you in that moment of it sounds like y'all had a beautiful relationship.

  Portia 20:41

  Yes, I can fully say that if somebody's going to talk to me about tissue or my dad, like my most recent loss, talk to me about when they were alive, that gives me something to remember, that's joyful. That brings me like something to smile about. But if you're going to help me with your, my grief, and you want to talk about, oh, my god, he was just so sick at the end. And it's a good thing that he's not suffering anymore. That's not a good feeling. Because now I'm just thinking about him being sick, and I'm thinking about him being gone. And, you know, Tish, I want to think about, like, the stupid shit that we us ed to do together, there was so much fun about the fact that Oh, my God, now she's gone, I'm aware that she's gone. Like, that's something that I'm smacked with every day that I wake up. So if we're going to talk about this person, that somebody lost, try and bring some joy back to it don't pile on to the grief that's already there, you know?

  KC Davis 21:31

  Well, it just kind of it made me really zoned in on what you were saying about, I think we are less uncomfortable when it comes to like an animal death. So it's, we don't feel the need to like, fix it immediately. But we are as humans, so uncomfortable, in the face of someone else's big grief about a loved one, that as a human that they've lost. It's almost like that's what makes us skip to the fixing, like because we can't handle the feelings that we have in the face of that person's feelings. When in reality, you know, if we could kind of hold on to ourselves in the face of that person's grief, we wouldn't, I think, feel as tempted to go right for the fixes. And we could join alongside them in that pain, and be able to say, I'm so sorry for your loss. It's not fair. She was such a beautiful friend. And you know, to lose someone who was a witness to not only your life, but to your dad's life into important parts of your life. Like, that's a loss, it comes with letting go of that discomfort around somebody else's feelings. And you make a good point when you talk about like losing a pet and everything. Because that pet didn't also have like a human connection. There's something there was a knowledge gap, but I'll close and I'll probably tell you about it later. But I can see what you're saying like, but we also if you look at it in general, when we talk about animals, animals are just so beloved. And of course, it's a big huge loss. And, of course, it's like, oh, it's the worst possible thing. But then we talk about it was such a great pet and everything. It's very interesting, how we're almost like better at it in some ways. Yes. And I'm trying to make the connection. And it's not going to be because the animal didn't have human emotions. That's really the only difference that immediately is coming to my mind. I'm gonna think about that one. You've sparked something in my brain, Casey Davis. I know. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to mull over it too. Well, this has been really wonderful. And I really appreciate you making the time. And

  Portia 23:23

  I think it's gonna be a great end cap on this conversation about grief. Yeah, it is. Grief is something that we cannot avoid is where love has no place to go. So if you think about it that way, it's a cheesy little statement. But it's true. Because I think people think that grief means an absence of love. And that is the exact opposite truth. Grief is love with just no place to go. Just recognize that, Oh, I feel that intensely. Because when I think about the people in my life, and when I have feelings for them, it is as if they absorb those things. There's some where to send it and then all sudden, it is there's nowhere for it to go. But it's still coming out of you. And it just fills the room and sweeps you up and then you feel like you're drowning in it. Yeah, one last thing before we end. Are you familiar with the grief ball in the box? thing? Yes. But I don't think anyone's talked about it yet. So you should talk about it. Okay, So picture this a box with starts off with a pebble in a corner. The box is you the box is your existence, the Pebble is grief, that pebble can grow into a rock and can sometimes fill up that entire box. So all you have are these little pockets where you are trying to survive. That boulder can shrink down to a rock where you've got more space to survive, but it's still very there and still very present. And sometimes I'll go back down to that pebble. So ideally, the grief is always there. The grief is not going anywhere. It comes back to it's never easier. It's just different. And then those moments where it's a boulder and you feel like you can't breathe, just remember that that boulder is not gonna stay a boulder forever. It's going to come back down to a rock and back down to a pebble. And as you move through grief and you recognize that it's always there and you're not just trying to get rid of it, and that it's just part of your life in your

  KC Davis 25:00

  story now, but how do you live with that? You recognize those those that ebb and flow is normal, it's natural, and it's never going to be a boulder forever, you can come back to a pebble. Yeah, it's not that the pain goes away, it's that there's more room for joy, to be able to be experienced alongside that pain. Exactly. And the more that you find yourself, finding comfort and joy, because sometimes when we're grieving, we have guilt, about joy, especially when that grief is really brand new. But the more that you allow yourself to feel that joy, the more that boulder becomes a rock more prominently, and then sometimes even a couple more prominently. That's beautiful. Well, thank you, Portia. So much. We're gonna put everybody's handles and things in the show notes. So if you guys want to follow anybody, look anybody up, you can check down there. And I hope you have a wonderful day. You too. Thank you.

  Rachel, thank you so much for being willing to talk with me. Thank you for having me. So before we get started, can you tell me a little bit about your late husband?

  Rachel 26:05

  Yes. So my late husband's name was James, but we all call them Jim. And this little anecdote kind of sums him up as a human. When he was a kid, he went to a Catholic school. So there were a lot of James's in his class, like a lot, a lot. And so there was James and there was James M. And there was James S. And there was Jim and there was Jimmy. And so he really got sick of always writing James m on his paper. So instead, he made his nickname Jim J. i, m b, because it's spelled like limb where the B is silent. And that stuck, like that was his name on his office door as an adult. Pretty sure it was on his diploma from college like Jim J. and B. That was his vibe. That was his human was a very creative man. And how long ago did he die? He died six and a half years ago. He died in June of 2017. It was a rough two weeks, who really, he died? And then six days or no, sorry, for five days later was Father's Day, then it was my birthday. And then a week after that was his birthday. Geez. So it was like the worst weeks ever. Okay, so I'm asking everybody the same three questions. And the first one is, if you're thinking back to that time period of grief, how do you feel about the question? What do you need? Or it's SR question? So what can I do? I understand the drive for that question. I understand why people ask it. And I hate it. I hated that question. That question was work it to put it simply, that question was work because it required both my reflection on what I needed. I knew to categorize what it was that I could use help with. It required me to prioritize and assess what I actually could ask of this person, right, given their proximity to my life, what could I actually demand or ask of this person. And it required me to do a certain amount of self reflection of what I was ready to accept help with?

  Right, because I couldn't just say, I want you to come clean my house to most people, because there was like, on top of the fact that my husband died, I had small children, I was pregnant, I was trying to run a business. I was in school, and all these things happening. And then there was like, already this level of like, shame attached to like, I can't do it all. So then asking me how can I help required my own self reflection of like, what am I willing to let people in to see where I'm failing? Right. And that is a very personal thing. But I think it's not an uncommon thing. Yeah. So did you ever come up with any answers that were actually helpful to that question, like a way to actually get help when people ask that I did. For people who were close enough for me, to be honest, right? So I always think of it like, I think of grief and the people in proximity to grief as like ripples on a pond. So like, the person at the middle, the rock, the one that causes the ripple is obviously the person who died. And the first ring is like, their very immediate family. So like myself and my children. And the next ring is like, my family, his family, you know, our next level of extended family. And and as we go out, right, that proximity dictated how comfortable didn't dictate it completely, but it helps dictate how comfortable I felt in being honest with the answer to the question, you know, how can I help, right? Because if you're my sister, I could say like, pick between house kids or job, right? My answer was, usually I have jobs, or I have ways you could help me in each of these realms, pick one, because that helps me then narrow down what I can ask for, and that I felt, for me was kind of the most honest and easiest and most helpful response to how can I help because if I had realms of where You could help me then you can pick and I don't have to do all this mental and emotional labor. And then for the people who were not close enough, I could just be like, No, I'm good. We're surviving. We're doing okay.

  KC Davis 30:09

  So was there anything that somebody, you know, we sort of established that for you, you know, what can I do wasn't actually like a very helpful thing to say. Was there anything that somebody did or said that you did find helpful in that time period for you?

  Rachel 30:22

  Yeah, I would say the people who, instead of saying, How can I help the ones who were like, Hey, I'm doing this thing? Can I do this for you as well? So like, I'm making a run to Goodwill, can I bring anything for you? Right, or, like, I'm taking my kids to the park can your kids come with? And then honestly, and this is, you know, obviously not an intervention that a lot of people can do. But there was a family that I've known for 20 years who have kids right around my same the same age as me, right? Who were basically just like, we're going to drop you a check once a quarter. Because we know that one of the things that would be helpful until your finances balance out after losing your spouse is just knowing that you have this little bit of money coming in, you know, because GoFundMe is great, and it's a helpful infusion right away in the beginning, but the business of death is exhausting and complicated. Like I didn't finish wrapping up my husband's death stuff until almost three years after he died.

  KC Davis 31:24

  Especially as a young widow. Yeah. So when people did said like, Hey, I'm going to Goodwill, can I take anything like for you? Was it kind of integral to that being helpful? The fact that they were saying like, Hey, I'm going anyways, that was part of it. It took the like, it definitely made sure that there was no layer of like, guilt or like imposition. But it was more that it was a specific thing. Right. Like, I didn't have to do any mental labor in the planning. I didn't have to, like, it was a very simple yes or no, right? I'm going and doing this thing. Do you want to be involved? Yes, I'm doing this thing. Can I help? Is this helpful? No. Right. And that was the other thing too. Is it? Also, there was no guesswork involved? There was no like, having to figure out if it was gonna, like, yeah, I guess that imposition, but also like that.

  Rachel 32:11

  I felt comfortable saying no, yeah. Because, I mean, it doesn't like affect them. If you say no, they're just doing a thing and make it an offer. And they're gonna do the thing anyways. And so there's like, no pressure either way. Right. Yeah, exactly. I like that. So would you say that? If you think back to that time period, what did people say? Or do that you could tell was well, meaning, but ultimately not helpful to you? I don't think anything was actively unhelpful. Like nothing was harmful. Right. I don't think anything that happened during that time period.

  With the exception, I guess, I'd say one thing is trying to explain death and loss to my children without me present. That was frustrating. Whoa, people did that. Yep, they sure did. Because one of the things that as a counselor, but also as somebody who experienced great loss as a child, like my dad died when I was a kid, one of the things that I was very cognizant of was making sure that conversations about my late husband went a very particular way with my kids, right? Like, I didn't ever stop them from talking about their dad. But I also never use phrases like he's in a better place, or he's not in pain anymore, like any of that stuff. Because little kids, right? They don't have the ability to think abstractly enough to understand the layers of meaning to those phrases. So like, when people are like, well, he's in heaven. Now. He's watching them, he's in a better place club. Like, they don't understand what that means. And so having people tried to say that stuff to my kids was not helpful. But beyond that, you know, there were just things that like, I brought you a meal, okay. I appreciate that. But I have now how many meals in my freezer like, I think, with the advent of things like meal train, where you can sign up for that stuff that's gotten better, but like six years ago, that wasn't as big of a thing. And I ended up with like, here's enchiladas that nobody in your family except you will eat and you're going to have a whole tray that'll feed 40 people. So now you don't really have to eat this up. But you have to take care of the leftovers and then not feel guilty about throwing out what you don't eat. Like, again, emotional labor, right? Gift cards, man. That was helpful. The gift cards were helpful. Hell yeah. We had a lot of McDonald's and Pizza Ranch. Very local thing. That's awesome. That's all I have. That's just those four questions. Oh, okay. I feel like that what I said was not you know, it's too too far out of left field compared to what other people have talked about. No, it was perfect. The whole point of the podcast is not necessarily like to give like universal answers, but like specifically to hear the different answers that everybody has. Because you know, some will say like, I hated that question and some will be like, I liked to hear it. i It made me feel like people liked me or people cared about me, then people were like, I mean, it's fine, but like, it just made so much more work for me and other people were like, oh, what's what

  KC Davis 35:00

  Ever Right? Like, most people agreed that like, it's not that helpful of a question. But then what they did find helpful, was very different. And so but it's interesting rikes, it's like, well, but if I don't know what they find helpful, but I don't want to ask what they find helpful, but I don't. And that's kind of a point is just to, like, invite people into the messiness of grief, that everyone is different. And that, ultimately, it's not about you, the person asking, so like, it's not this like charge to not screw it up, or to ask the perfect question. It's more just an awareness of like, everybody's different. And the whole thing is messy, and you just gotta get in there with them. But I think also, what was so consistent was a recognition of like, with your example, about the rings in the water, like, people having a self awareness of like, where are they positioned in the rings? Because if you're a co worker, right, like, giving a gift card is great. You know,

  if you're my sister showing up at my house with food is great. Mike, my business partners, the day my husband died, we've actually had a really big falling out the year before. So like it did, we were still working together, but we definitely weren't as close as we had been. And the day my husband died, they both basically dropped everything and drove down to my house. And like one of them cleaned my cat boxes. The other one took my kids to the park, like, they were just like, you know, we've had our ups and downs, but we are we know, we're close enough. We've been in business together for how many years? Like, they just stepped in and did stuff they didn't ask, it was just like, We know what needs to be done. We're going to do it. Sorry, even though most people will say that, like, hey, what can I do? Like isn't really a helpful question. Everyone so far has agreed, saying nothing is like the worst thing you could do. Like, Oh, I'm so uncomfortable. I don't want to get it wrong. I don't want to whatever. Right. And it's not even What's so funny is like, I would honestly urge people like my 1,000% opinion, is if you don't feel comfortable, if you're like, I know that asking what can I do isn't helpful, but I have nothing to offer, right? I can't give you money. I can't afford a gift card. I'm not close enough to you to offer to come and clean your house, whatever. Like my proximity to you isn't enough. There is so much helpfulness and healing in just saying like, I'm really sad for you. And I will not forget your partner because I think especially that first year, right? Everybody remembers everybody steps in to think about the big things, right? It's your first Christmas, tell your partner, it's your first anniversary, it's your first, whatever. But then when you get into year two, and it's not as present in people's minds, it's not as fresh, right? Their lives have moved on. If you have that moment of realization, even if you're four or five, six rings removed, and you have that like glimmer, like, oh yeah, I remember when Jim said that thing, sending a Facebook message sending a text and being like, Hey, I thought about your partner today. And it just made me smile. Like that is so unbelievably like healing and helpful. And I don't think people talk about it enough. I get we don't we don't bring it up at all. It always feels like it has to be actionable. And it doesn't. Yeah, sometimes. And I think also, like thoughts and prayers have been such a phrase. And also like the recognition like not everybody wants you to talk about like praying for them. And I have found that like, it seems underwhelming. But it is so simple to just say to somebody like I'm thinking about you today. Yep. Like I'm thinking about you if you suffer personally, like on a scale of like, okay to work, and thank you, right thoughts and prayers is okay, great. Like, when it gets specific to their actual practices, that gets a little bit more meaningful. So I have a friend who's Buddhists who would tell me like, Hey, I'm chanting for you today. Thank you, right. I appreciate that. Getting to hey, I thought of I'm thinking about you today. They're kind of on the same scale. But then those really specific like, I saw this thing, it made me think of you and maybe think of your kids and maybe think of your partner or whatever. Like that really made an impact personally because it right, like ties in that sense of like, this actually happened. Right? It makes it more, more genuine. I think that's the word I'm looking for. Well, thank you so much. This has been really helpful. Yeah.

  So Shayna, thank you for being with me today. Could you take a minute to introduce yourself and talk to us a little bit about Claire? Sure. So as you said, my name is Shana and I live in the Pacific Northwest with my husband. We've had three beautiful daughters. My oldest is Lily. My second is Claire, and my youngest is Julianne, and we run a nonprofit called the Claire bear Foundation. And that actually started because of Claire eight years ago on my 31st birthday. We dropped Claire off at her in home childcare providers home like we

  Shayna Raphael 40:00

  I always did. And I'd taken the day off with my oldest for some one on one time before we went and picked Claire up early and celebrated my birthday with family that evening. And about midday, I started to get some phone calls from my mom, and then my husband. And as strange as it sounds, if my husband calls me during the workday, I know that something's up because he usually is not available. And I answered and he asked if I talked to my mom, I said, I hadn't answered her calls yet. And then he just told me that I needed to get to the hospital right away. But Claire was unresponsive when they woke her up from a nap. It was a Friday afternoon. So then I spent Friday afternoon traffic trying to get to the hospital got there. And then what I had feared the most had happened had happened and Claire, they weren't able to save her. And so that morning was the last time I was able to see Claire live. We later found out that our childcare provider who we had loved and trusted, she had watched my older daughter when she was an infant as well hadn't been transparent with us about where Claire was sleeping, and they had been having her sleep on their adult mattress since she was about seven months old. Despite showing us cribs and the other sleep space she was in and Claire suffocated. She was 10 and a half months old, it's not something that I would have really thought would have been a risk for her at that age. But unfortunately, she is one of the main reasons that safe sleep recommendations go up through one year of age. And so yeah, now it's been eight years and we miss her. It's just it's painful. Grief doesn't really go away. It changes over time, but we miss her like crazy. I think it's hard for any mother to wrap their head around that experience. So I appreciate you coming on and telling us about Claire and answering some questions about grief. And I've been interviewing several different people and hearing their different responses to these questions. And the first one really is how do you feel about the question? What do you need? Or what can I do? And so both any kind of emotional reaction you have to that or any kind of narrative that you had around people asking that I have a different mindset. Now, of course than I did when I was very fresh in grief. I wouldn't questions like that occurred right after Claire died, my initial response inside was, what do you need, I need my daughter back, I need to not be going through this. And so it's really hard. Now I'm able to look back and reflect and know how well intentioned everyone is with those questions. There's no malice. It's an impossible question. Because in that state, really the only thing you do need is to not be where you're at. And I don't think I really had answers for people. At that point. I know I needed to spend time with Claire's big sister, she was the reason that I was getting out of bed every day. I'm not sure what it would have been like had I not had her there to kind of keep us going. I needed my husband, who was really the only other person that got it. But it's kind of an impossible question. And it's difficult on both ends. For those that are close to you and love you and are watching you go through this and want to be able to fix it. And then on the other side where there's absolutely nothing that can fix it. Was there anything that anyone did do at that time or around that time? That was genuinely helpful? Absolutely. We had another couple that were very close friends of ours that we spent every weekend with before Claire died and they just showed up, they 100% just would knock on our door and show up and because it was them it was okay if it was family or them are pretty much the only exceptions to that rule. Also one of my very best friends who was working with me in the classroom I taught and at the time, she and her husband were just amazing. There was one time I remember I was texting her and we moved shortly after Claire died about two months after it was just too hard childcare providers house was just a few blocks from ours. And so we moved in, I'm packing up Claire's room and we had the you get the diapers, subscription each month. So they arrive and I'm packing up her room and I have all these diapers and I'm taking them out to the back garbage can and sorry, there's no room. Everything was full. And so I was texting my friend about this. And next thing I know 10 minutes later, her husband shows them goes into the alley and swaps my garbage bin with the neighbors down the street in the alleys fresh one. And it was just this immediate reaction of Oh, in my mind, they said and here's one small thing we can do to help

  Seamus, so we're gonna show up and do it. And little things like that were really helpful and just showing up and being there, it's this fine line, because like I said, there are other people, I had someone that I didn't know very well that showed up in front of her house one day, and this guy's not going to, I don't feel comfortable with this right now. But those people that you really can let your guard down with just show up, even if you say I'm not in the mood, and they're just there anyways, it really helped.

  KC Davis 45:26

  And were you able, at that time like to even vocalize those things of like, it would be nice if someone could come do this for me, or it would be nice if somebody would switch swap my like, not laundry, but my trash can. I really wasn't in a place where I needed that I was fortunate that I had this incredible support system, just the whole community really rallied around our family. And so I'm very lucky with that, I understand that not everyone has that. And so with that I have very close people in my life that were able to kind of keep two steps ahead of me. But I was not in a place where I was really able to articulate that one of the things that my doctor said when I went in, I think three days after Claire died and was basically like, I know, I'm gonna need be on to antidepressants. Can we just start me now? Can we take care of all this date me? Yeah, basically. And so you know, they gave me things to help me sleep and also for the anxiety and they were very, she was very clear of, we're going to do this for about three months. And after three months, I'm gonna expect that you're not going to need these daily, not antidepressants or anti anxiety meds, those stayed on November, the heavy hitters, heavy hitters of three months, three months, I'm going to expect you to kind of be able to come out this fog, things aren't going to be better or fixed. And man, was she right? That about those three months mark, I was able to kind of start functioning more and then transition into being able to articulate my needs without either

  Shayna Raphael 47:04

  complete sadness or complete rage, which had been the case probably the month after Claire died. So you mentioned the person that showed up that wasn't very close to you. I'm curious if there's anything else that people said or did then or now that is just patently unhelpful? Any comments? And I know, you've noticed about me any comments about religion? very unhelpful. Any comments about closure? Any comments about Claire being in a better place, I firmly believe that there is no better place for her to be right now than with us. She was not in a better place. And those were really unhelpful. And people who don't know the person, well, who's going through this loss.

  I felt like Claire's death was a tabloid story. Almost people just kind of coming out of the woodwork and messaging me and asking me for very specific details about Claire's death. Again, now I'm eight years out, and I can be more reflective. And I understand that they were probably coming to place from fear. We were at the age where a lot of us had infants, and I'm sure they wanted to know what happened so that it didn't happen to them. At the time, I felt like it was a complete violation of Claire's privacy. I didn't talk about how Claire died, or her death for a good year, year and a half after she died, because I just felt like this is the one last thing I can do for her, I can protect her privacy and be respectful of that. And now I understand that by sharing her story, I can help her memory go on and hopefully help other people from not having to go through what we've gone through. But at the time, it was very fresh. And I remember thinking that was just such a violation of my privacy and her privacy. Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that happens, especially when a child dies, and with other mothers is there's this, at least I find this with myself, like if I'm reading an article about a child death, there's something in me that wants to find a factor in that that was controllable, so that it relieves my anxiety. Okay, well, I'm not gonna go on a cruise. So, right or like, oh, I don't beat my kids, so I don't have to. Okay. And it always seems to me like that's what's behind some of those really invasive questions, which is like, I'm having so much anxiety hearing about your daughter. And it's really unfair because it's it affects someone saying, I need you. In your moment of loss. I need you to fix my anxiety. Yeah, absolutely. At the time, I really struggled to understand that point and some of the people that reach

  stick out. We're just I remember sitting with my mom. I was buying shoes for the funeral. And we ran into my mom and I both worked in the local school district at the time. And she was a high school administrator, we ran into another administrator, sat down with us in the shoe section at Nordstrom and said Sony news on all that baby stuff. And I just in my mom got really quiet. And I got really quiet. And so I did have some of those but the vast majority war, my peer group wondering how they could prevent this, I'm assuming, and I'm thinking of you talking about like, not wanting religious comments, and I assume that is that partially because you're not religious yourself? Yeah, not religious myself were very culturally Jewish. I'm very proud of being Jewish. We're not incredibly religious. And I remember I got into therapy almost immediately, I still see the same therapist. And I remember being really upset talking to her one day, almost wishing that I believed the way that other people believed wishing than I actually thought that she was in a better place, or that someone had called her home. And my therapist was really clear with me of, that's not always sustainable. So the fact that I was going through it and trying to do the hard work up front, could potentially delay that there can be a lot of layers of confusion and anger when you are inserting religion. And she knows that I'm not very religious. So it could be that she was trying to make me feel better about that. But but it really, did I just anytime someone would say something like that I wanted to scream back, like how could you possibly think that she's in a place better than with me and her dad and her sister? And you know, I would consider myself a religious person. But I don't think I think I would still feel the same way that you do. Because it's like someone forcing closure on you. It's like, they're uncomfortable with your grief, and they want to fix it, they want to, and I know people think they're helping. But the thing that I can't help but notice that all those things have in common is like, you don't have to be sad about this. Here's why.

  Yes, and then the insistence. I mean, you've seen this, I think on social media with me where I kind of push back and I say, just so you know, I don't find this comforting other people might not and then you'll have people argue with you about it about why it should be comforting. And even if you don't believe it, just so you know. And it's like, you know, people I think often forget, condolences are for the person receiving them, not for the person, giving them they're meant to make us feel a little bit better. And so if you're upset with how the person is receiving them, being reflected on why you're giving them, I think is an important step. Were there any condolences that anyone gave that were received in the manner they were intended, like phrases or sayings that people would say that you did find? Not helpful, but loving? Absolutely. And people still will tell me to the state, just that they're sorry, which goes a long way and how unfair they think it is that really just hits home because it is unfair. So I just had my birthday a couple of weeks ago, which again, was the eighth anniversary of her death and people texting me saying that they think of Claire all the time, and that they still can't believe how unfair this all is. And that means a lot in Judaism, there's a phrase, May her memory be a blessing. And that always is really powerful to me. One thing I Well, I'm not a religious person. One thing I do like about Judaism is the thought that your memory lives on by being remembered. So we aren't allowed to name our children after people that are living, we have to name them after people who have already passed as a way to keep their memory alive. And that I find a lot of comfort in goes along with that phrase, May her memory be a blessing that I find powerful. And I think it can fit everyone, no matter what your religion is. If you're not religious, that yes, the memory is powerful. And you'll get to a point eventually, where you can think about where I can think about Claire, and it's not all tears or sadness, and I can find a lot of joy in her pictures and videos now.

  KC Davis 54:29

  So I'm curious, how long was it before you could find you mentioned you couldn't articulate what you needed? For you personally? How long was it before you could articulate an answer to that question, what do you need? That was actually helpful? I would say it probably took a lot of therapy and a good year to be able to do that. And a lot of that process was learning about boundaries and that I can't

  Shayna Raphael 55:00

  control what anyone else is going to say to me or what they're going to do the time I couldn't control what was going on with the police department or any of that, but I could build boundaries around myself and my daughter, Lily to protect us and with those boundaries came articulating, not just what I needed, but also what I did not need, what I didn't have the emotional capacity for, and being really aware of that. Just processing what you said, I can't tell you how much I'm grateful for you coming on here and sharing Claire with us. And answering those questions and being willing to kind of revisit that time to share what that was like with you. And, and I hope that it's helpful to the people that are listening. One of the things that is my hope with this episode is that as we listen to people talk about how they felt about that question, which is kind of like our go to question. You know, you'll hear people say, I hated it. And then people say I loved it. And then people say I wish they would have just done it and left me alone. And then people say I'm glad that they did it without asking. And I think what is so beautiful about that is it really illustrates like there is no one right answer. Yeah. And like, I think as a person who, you know, wants to know how to help someone that when they're in grief, we can become so afraid of getting it wrong, that we just don't do anything.

  KC Davis 56:26

  And what's been beautiful, and listening to everyone is to hear about the people that showed up for you that worried less about, like kind of getting it perfect. And more about just trying to show up, but also trying to listen, when you were able to articulate, you know, I need more space, or I need you to come closer. And so you know, that's it's quite a different thing to kind of just enter into the messiness with someone. Absolutely. And like you said, it's so individualized and everyone grieves, but my husband and I agree completely differently. And for us that ended up being a good thing. I think if we were both going through the same thing, at the same time, I'm not sure how we would have stayed afloat. But it's it's hard and I'm forever thankful for my friends. I also strangers this sounds a like the anonymity of some of these online grief groups. Like on Facebook, I'd read a blog from my now friend Lexi that she written, and it's entitled to the grieving mama. And I remember reading it about a week and a half after Claire died. And I was just like, she's speaking to me. So I commented on it. She emailed me and said, Hey, I have this small private group on Facebook, would you like me to add you and there were about 15 of us. And my goodness, if these other women didn't pull me through grief over these last eight years, and really helpful seeing people that were just like me that were

  Shayna Raphael 57:57

  married and functioning, because I've gone to some in person grief groups, and I remember leaving, talking to my mom, and a lot of them had lost adult children and I just, which is just as horrific, but it's a different sort of loss and just seeing them for years after the fact still feeling like I was three weeks after the fact and calling my mom crying afterwards and saying is this is this my future Am I never going to be happy again. And so the those online support groups where I could choose when I wanted to access them, and when I didn't, when I had the ability emotionally to kind of dive into that they are still people in my life that I will never ever forget. And I'm so thankful for my husband and I have met a bunch of them in person now and it's just, they were definitely a blessing. Is there anything that you would like to tell us about the Claire bear foundation? What do you guys do and how can people give if they feel so led to absolutely after Claire died, we had a wrongful death lawsuit. And then at the end of it we there's nothing that feels good about getting a check in the mail as a result of a wrongful death lawsuit for us. It was more about justice that we weren't able to get through the justice system. And we were really at a loss of what to do. We do feel like at the hospital that night when they tried to resuscitate Claire, we were fortunate that the doctor working on her was also the director of the entire emergency department. And he was so kind and so compassionate. He met with me multiple times after Claire's death to just go step by step again through what happened that night. And so we donated the money to that hospital at the direction that it should go wherever Dr. Walkley felt that it should go and so they created Claire Wakefield training room and it's a high tech CPR trauma response training are almost like what you'd see on Grey's Anatomy where they're working on a child size thing and you get in the moment feedback and someone behind can kind

  have control what's going on. And it felt really good to be able to do that. And so that kind of started the Claire bear foundation and now we provide safe sleep spaces and sleep related items. So sleep sacks, pacifiers, swaddles portable cribs, to any family that has a financial need in the United States. We do a lot of education and advocacy on new committee with the American Academy of Pediatrics. I'm on the Sudden Infant Death prevention panel with our local county health department. I sit on the boards for ASTM standards where we set the federally regulated safety standard for infant products. And then related to grief. One thing that people don't think about and it sounds almost tawdry to talk about is that losing someone is very expensive. The costs that go into burying someone and the hospital bills you might get afterwards. It's not something that you think of ahead of time, especially if you just have young children. So we do provide financial support for families that have lost a child of of any age.

  KC Davis 1:01:18

  That's really beautiful. Well, thank you, and I hope you Yeah,

  Shayna Raphael 1:01:23

  that was just gonna say thank you for giving me such a nice space on here to talk about Claire and just thank you for being new because you've been so supportive and kind for me to me for the last couple of years and it's meant quite a bit

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai