69: Religion without Patriarchy with Rev Karla
Today’s topic is about the religious trauma that many people encounter as they grow up, patriarchy, and the way religion tends to weaponize mental health. I’ve had my various issues with religion, but I want this episode to be helpful to those who consider themselves religious and those who do not. I’m joined by Karla, who is an Interfaith Interspiritual minister who refers to herself as “spiritual, but not religious.” Join us!
Show Highlights:
● How Rev. Karla came into her “deconstructing religion” phase
● How a journey of religious deconstruction puts a person into a kind of freefall
● What it means to go into the “spiritual wilderness”
● Why Rev. Karla calls herself an unchurched, non-conforming Christian
● Why we should question authority, religion, and the patriarchy
● How we are intuitively connected to our inner wisdom and what is happening around us
● Why we need spiritual autonomy
● Thoughts on the Netflix documentary, Escaping Twin Flames
● How some religions weaponize any mental health issues as indicators that faith, spiritual grounding, and leadership potential are lacking
● Why sexual exploitation almost always shows up when patriarchy is in full force
● The correlation between mental health and religious trauma
Resources and Links:
Connect with Rev. Karla: TikTok, Instagram, Facebook,
and Spirituality Matters podcast
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You
can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on
our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC 0:05
Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, KC Davis. And we're going to talk today about religion. But before you log off, we're going to be going over some things about religious trauma, some issues with religion. And as always, I like to try and talk about religion in a way that is helpful both to people who consider themselves religious and to people who do not. So I'm here today with Karla, as I think your official title is, thank you for being here.
Karla 0:34
It's an honor to be looking forward to this.
KC 0:36
So tell me a little bit about yourself and your background. We're going to talk about patriarchy. Today we're going to talk about religion weaponizing mental health. So tell me about yourself and tell me why you are the right person to talk about this. Well,
Karla 0:51
somehow I found myself on Tik Tok as a Boomer and you know, content started going crazy as I was talking about things that people that resonated with people when it came to this whole phenomenon called deconstructing, and I didn't even know that phrase until I got to social media. I always called it untangling from the my religious beliefs that no longer served my highest good because I just felt like where I was in my life, they were not only limiting me, they were suffocating me. And I was ready to let go of some of that rigid dogma. And once I went into social media and started teaching and writing, I realized that this is not just a singular thing. It's a movement. And I always even early on, in my deconstructing phase, I knew that there were people that I could help I wasn't quite sure how I had no idea what because I put on a wig and I dance around social media that that would resonate with people, but it does, you learn how to pick up trends and and go with it. But for me, I was raised Southern Baptist. And so coming from that to a place where I'm now an ordained interfaith Interspiritual minister is a big chasm to big major book ends. And I've only been ordained since 2017. So you can imagine the journey that I've been on since the time I deconstructed from basically evangelical Christianity, and inner spiritual interfaith means that we respect all religions and Interspiritual says that spirituality can and does exist outside of the construct the the actual framework of a religion. And so that's an important part of my message. People say, Wait, you left the church, but you're still a reverend? Well, there's many ways that you can be a reverend, it's that indoctrinated thinking that we think it can only be inside one type of framework of church. So I think that's an important part of my journey as well. But I think that what really resonates with people in my message is that I'm giving them permission to rethink spirituality without letting go of it. Oftentimes, when you start to feel like you're changing, and you're evolving and awakening, even and your religious framework no longer serves you in that way, you feel like you're moving away from it, those indoctrinated beliefs can often lead you to believe that because you're leaving those framework, you don't have the option to look at life through a spiritual lens, which you absolutely do. So that's what I do. I help people navigate religious trauma and also understand how much of our lives are impacted by patriarchy, we have no idea how much we are constantly coming up against those values and beliefs, how much we still hold on to them, even when we think that we're rejecting a lot of the things that that harmed us or that are harmful to society, we are still holding on to some of those. And once we are able to face them, then we really start to see some monumental shifts in people's thinking, and in their healing journey away from those beliefs that that harm, though, I
KC 3:55
think what's interesting is when I think about my own journey of like, I didn't grow up religious, I went to a Catholic school, I didn't become spiritual, really, until I was in rehab. And then I had a conversion to Christianity when I was 19, and was in a pretty dogmatic evangelical church for a few years before going to Southern Baptist seminary and then deconstructing from there. And you know, they're sort of these obvious ways of deconstructing some people deconstruct all the way out of the faith. And then I'm no longer a Christian. I'm no longer religious at all. Some people will deconstruct from maybe like fundamentalism, which if you're not familiar with that phrase, it's basically referring to the more strict sort of legalistic very literal interpretations. If you know who like the Duggars are, that's like, probably the most fundamentalist you can imagine. And then there's this idea of okay, I have deconstructed just into a different like denomination, or I've deconstructed to where I no longer think that like, you know, my role is the right religion or this, that and the other. I feel like I've deconstructed this really interesting place. Sometimes people are surprised to hear that I consider myself a Christian and surprise for me to say I probably would consider myself a pretty devout one. And there's this interesting conversation when people ask me about like, Well, what do I think now? And I say, Well, I can tell you about my experience with the God of my understanding. And I can tell you about my experience with the Bible. And I can tell you what I believe to be true. And then a lot of people will say, you know, what, don't you believe that? Like, all religions are right. And that's this interesting question. Because my response, and I'd never really realized that this was an option was like, Hey, I picked the one that I think is right. Like, it's like, those two things really exist at the same time, which is like, I'm not, I mean, I think everyone believes what they believe, because they believe it's the closest to the truth there is because otherwise, we're believing something else, right. And so I still have these like, pretty devoutly held beliefs that are meaningful to me. And I have such respect for other denominations and other religions and other faiths and other ways. I have such admiration for people of other faiths. And I have no need for anyone of any other faith to believe my faith or think differently about their faith. And so truly, like, summed up by like, like, honestly, like, I'm rocking with the God that brought me to the party, you know what I mean? I'm gonna go home with the one that brought me to dance with the one that brought you whatever that phrase is, because that's just what happened to me as wonderful. But I don't know, I could be wrong, I'm going to operate as if there's at least a chance I'm wrong.
Karla 6:39
Yeah, I love that. Rockin with the God who brought me I love. But I also think that you brought up a really important part right at the very beginning of that, which, by the way, I love it, the whole journey of your faith evolve, because I forgot that you had gone to seminary, but the whole thing about holding on to your Christian identity without having to hold on to some of the tenets of the faith. And for a long time. I too had I struggled with that. I mean, the question that I carry with me all the time. And I also talk a lot about this in my book, which is what am I going to do about Jesus because you and you realize that something's changing, that relationship was so fundamental to who you were, and your identity and your belief system, that it was a requirement that you actually had to answer certain questions a specific way in order to be considered a valid, validated Christian. So being able to win, navigate it. And I also want to pause for a minute to recognize something else that you said, when you which is so important for people when they're deconstructing because there are people who just deconstruct from certain elements of the faith, but then find community and inspiration and connection still inside church. I don't proselytize for people to leave church, I don't do that I am unchurched. I never thought that when I started this instructing journey, I did not know. That's where I would land, I did not know that I would end up on a spiritual but not religious journey, I allow the journey to take me where I was gonna go, I thought to I was going to end up at some seminary that was going to be Christian centric. Instead, I ended up in an interfaith seminary. That's really
KC 8:19
what the heart of the deconstructing journey is about, right, which is, and this is why it's so powerful, because when you're in the clutches of really dogmatic religion, the path is laid out for you, and you know where it's going. And when you begin to deconstruct, there's this freefall of if I truly go on this journey, I don't know what will be left, what will be left, if I just stand here, under like, if I stand out in the rain of truth, what will it wash away? What will still be left standing? What will I have and not have? Where will I be? And that is terrifying, if you are someone who has been clinging to sort of the certainty of religious tenets, right? Because what if I deconstruct all the way out of the faith completely, and I become atheist? What if I just deconstruct and make a lateral move to some other different denomination? What do I do with Jesus? What do I do with this? What do I do with church? And where do I go right? And you don't know which of those you're going to be? If you are like genuinely deconstructing, and you just but here's what's so crazy. The faith that required to deconstruct is so much more an experience of real faith in whatever I was drawing on when I had this, like laid out every question answered every tenant in stone. Does that make sense? Oh,
Karla 9:38
it makes so much sense. And what you're describing there is I call the spiritual wilderness and once you accept the fact that you're going to let go of the known let go of the how to be a Christian because so many of us we were indoctrinated to believe that there were a subset of rules that we had to follow to be labeled that good Christian and you let that go there. You live in this pair. Radox of Well, I think I want to let that go. But why do I feel guilty but yet I'm drawn to this. So once you accept that and learn to understand that there's wisdom in the curious and living in the curious and living with wonder in living in the mystery, instead of all that the rigid dogmatic things that for some of us became suffocating other people find that enriching and fulfilling. But for those of us who are on this different type of deconstructing journey, it takes us into these deep places where rules just don't those rules don't come with us. It doesn't mean that we might not return to some elements of it. And I like you hold onto my Christian identity because of how it served me for so many years. And because what it instilled in me was this desire to continually seek divine wisdom did I let go of the masculinized, this anthropomorphic, patriarchal God? Yes, I did. But I still have this desire to seek wisdom and seek connection and understand of this divine mystery. Because where we are in our human evolving, we still just know just a tiny percentage of if we look at how our understanding has evolved over time, when you look at worship hundreds of years ago, or 1000s of years ago, and where we are now it's continues to change and thank God that it does, we're not only no longer throwing people into volcanoes, in hopes of appeasing the volcano gods, we don't do those things anymore. And so we are constantly moving towards this mystery. And so I do hold on to that Christian but I call myself an unchurched, non conforming Christian and non conforming is it gets me a lot of trouble. Sometimes when I explained it that that means that I will not adhere to the rigid dogma that suffocated my right as a person as a person who identifies as cisgender heterosexual woman, it limited my ability to understand the divine through something other than just the framework that was set out for me. And it also honors those who use their religion for a social justice movements such as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr, who had a sermon in the 50s, about being a nonconformist. And so there's history there that actually is rooted in Christianity that talks about the importance of making sure that even when you are inside a religion, you're not afraid to question it, and push back on the things that harm people and harm large classes of people. Because let's face it, Christianity has been at the root of some of the most horrific oppression that's happened in our society
KC 12:47
both on a systemic basis, and on an individual basis. Yeah, I always tell people that are thinking about deconstructing that there's nothing to be afraid of. Because if there is no God, there is nothing to be afraid of, from deconstructing from all of this stuff. And if there is a God, then there is nothing to be afraid of, like, from deconstructing from all this stuff. Because at the end of that journey, right, if there is no God, it doesn't matter. You can throw away anything that is not serving you. And if there is a God like really, and truly is one, do you not think he will hold you? Do you not think you can walk through the valley of the shadow of death, and he will be there? Do you think you could make enough theological mistakes that if there was a God, he'd be like, you know, I was going to have you I was going to hold you I was going to look out for you. But man, you decided instead of believing in one B of this theological statement, you decided to go with one C? And I just I can't do that like that just seems so silly. If they're like it might be a God of the universe.
Karla 13:50
And if you think you said that you went to a Catholic school with you went on to study in a more framework that was more evangelical, but it sounds like that a lot of that dogmatic thinking it was like I don't want to I don't want to imply that somehow that was easier for you than someone who was raised and gobbled that down spoon fed from the pulpit their entire life, but I admire how you were able to look at that and say This makes no sense to me. It took me years. I mean, in a lot of times, I think it is generational because I am a boomer I was raised in the 60s and the 70s were very much that structure where children were seen and not heard. I have family members who are part of my caregivers who were taken out of the educational system to care for family to work the farm you know very much in one generation away from houses with no plumbing with no electricity I took baths in tubs you know the tubs with the well water so you know we're literally one generation away from the people who very much set inside that patriarchal system that said you do not question authority. You do not question anyone in authority even when they They are blatantly wrong, even when you know that and then when and I don't mean to be triggering to your listeners. But when you compound that with any type of abuse, which was part of my history, and so many people's stories, that is a hard thing to heal from and deconstruct from because not only are you not feeling safe with the people around you, you don't have any kind of resources whatsoever to question their actions, or the way they run the household, the way they run the schools, the way they run the government, whatever that is. So that patriarchal structure, which we're starting to see crumble now with Gen Z, and the millennials who question everything to the point where you're like, yeah, why do we do it that way? Why are things set up this way, you're starting to see that the system cannot support the generations who are saying, I do not want to live under a system where I don't have the right to question someone's actions just because of tradition, or because of a system that just protects one group of people, which is primarily in our patriarchal structures is the man.
KC 16:07
And that's the part that needs to be deconstructed. Like, I will say that a lot of times what happens is that people will deconstruct from the theology, but they won't deconstruct from patriarchy, they won't deconstruct from the hierarchies, they won't deconstruct from these things. And they'll go to other movements and just set up the same oppressive system of whether it's evangelicalism or fundamental like within that movement. So like one, I see this a lot with the new age, spirituality movement. And I don't have I think that whatever spirituality is bringing meaning to your life is valid. But for example, think about Teal Swan, which if you don't know, if you're listening, she's like, basically a cult leader in the New Age Movement. And she's done some real damage and real trauma. If you watch the documentary about twin flames, which is another cult, one of the things that you see is that people will co opt sort of New Age spiritual terms to draw you in, because maybe you've deconstructed from a fundamentalist religion, but you still want meaning you still want community, you still want, you know, spirituality, and you'll get drawn in by those terms. And then all of a sudden, you find yourself under the thumb of someone who's just set up the same type of oppressive hierarchy and patriarchy where if you question that person, your faith is what's questioned your health is what's questioned whether it's your mental health or your spirituality or your whatever, right? Like, well, you're just not in tune with the spirit of the universe, if you can't just take feedback. And it's like, I don't know, I think maybe you're abusing me right now.
Karla 17:40
Exactly. I'm glad you brought up twin flames as well, I was highly triggered watching that. But you brought something up that really is a sensitive and sometimes conflicting situation for me, because so many, I could easily be the people's Guru, I could see how easily people would start to look at me as the next person that they're going to follow. Because when people deconstruct what you said, is just like, I just want to capture it all. And let people hear that because they're not just deconstructing, they're looking for the next leader. And part of that comes out of an inherent nature that you just want to emotionally check out of your life. Let somebody else take care of all the details of running government running everything else, and just tell me, I'm going to be okay, yeah, I'd like that. Yeah. Tell me what to believe. Tell me what the afterlife is. Tell me where I'm going and tell me the steps to get there. And I'm so careful about doing that. Do I finally do it in the book? Yes, I finally do it. But I am so careful about making sure that people aren't looking at me as the only place that they're getting answers about their deconstructing journey. If I could have a spiritual care session with all my followers, the one thing I would tell them because this happens 95% of the time, so if you and I are,
KC 18:57
it's funny, because I know you mean like tick tock followers, when we talk about call to then start being like, what I would tell my followers and I'm like, there. It's not like Carla has people like sitting around her feet at a compound somewhere. But it is funny that the language is the same. Oh my
Karla 19:11
gosh, that's so true. But just like the one thing I love about when I did spiritual care sessions, i The person within 90 seconds, two minutes at tops, they have the answer to what's happening, I just need to give them a mirror that we often get here the noise because we are just dealing with so much stuff. But if we understood that we are intuitively connected to our own inner wisdom, and that way and what's happening around us so it's learning how to not let that go to reclaim our spirituality. It's always been about without using the word individualism because I know that has so many other world repercussions, but it really is about our inherent right to hold on to our individual spirituality first and foremost, that is as unique to us as our fingerprints. Once we figure that out, then we should Looking for community,
KC 20:01
it's I mean, its autonomy, right? Like it's that right to spiritual autonomy, which is not exclusive of the importance of spiritual community and accountability and interconnectedness. But I think that that exactly, you've really hit the nail on the head, because having been in a couple of high control groups, which is like the scientific name for cults, that's what it is, it's somebody really violating your spiritual autonomy and telling you through fear and intimidation and shame and social pressure, what to believe and what to do and scaring you into certain types of behavior, and that what deconstructing is, isn't it, it's the rediscovering of your spiritual autonomy, you may or may not leave the faith community that you're in or change it or look at it differently. But whether that moves on the chessboard or not, there's this spiritual autonomy that we learn to trust because that I mean, that is what the high control groups really prey on whether you're in a religious high control group or a 12 step high control group or a new age spiritual high control group or a mental health high control group, it thrives on that idea that you don't know you better than I know you watching twin
Karla 21:10
flames was very triggering for me. And it angered me because of that the buzzwords that they were using, and how they remind me of the words I'm using it, but I can see why all of a sudden, I'm being I'm in this weird place where I'm not religious. But I also don't want to be identified with anybody who's using the same manipulative tactics and using these new buzzwords around it to try to get people to, to be obligated to and bound by this cult, like it is a cult. That's what they are following. So you know, I'm always looking at how I can use that language without sounding like them, or them. And it is a really weird place. It's a really weird place to be. And the
KC 21:57
twin flames documentary, I just realized people probably don't always know what we're talking about. It's on. I think, Netflix, I think there's another one on Amazon Prime. But it's basically the charlatan couple that basically talks about how you have one soulmate in the world, and it's your twin flame. And if you follow their program and give them money, they guarantee that you'll find that person, and then they just start assigning people to each other and saying that's your twin flame and selling them they can't leave the relationship no matter what. And it's bananas, y'all gotta go check it out. But it is definitely high control group definitely called and definitely what we're talking about where there's this patriarchal setup for sure
Karla 22:33
the leaders of those are still it is a husband and wife. And even I think sometimes people are confused about patriarchy in that way, because you see it through you, it's easy to see when it's through a man, a male structure, you can see the man at top, you see it in our own government, when you see how much it's skewed towards the leadership is skewed still towards men, if we had a more if our government representation should be more diverse, that to represent all of the entirety of its citizens. So any kind of structure, if it's going to be less patriarchal, that's how you start to dismantle some of those systems. But even in when you're talking about this cult, which it clearly is, and you have this man who's the leader, but you also have this woman, then you start to see how women and people who have been oppressed by patriarchal systems, internalize those systems, because in that series, you clearly see how he uses dehumanizing language, aggressive behavior to bring her under submission, he has no problem whatsoever to make sure that everyone understands that he is the authority in that relationship. However, she in turn, then by virtue of the rewards that she's getting from this system is willing to what they call carry water to go up as far as she can in the system to dump water on the rest of the followers because she's getting financially rewarded by her proximity to that person in power. So if you pluck out what we just described in twin flames, and then you look at how that is set up in other systems, you start to see why inside a high control religious systems, whether that's in a fundamentalist Christian Church, where they basically say, if you don't look like love, like believe, like we do, you're not invited. They don't want you in the pews. That's a very different look than some of the others. You see women who support that even though they will never they're never viewed as having the same value as men. Men are God ordained leaders. That's the language that's used, but yet you have women who support that, you start to see why their proximity to power gives them power in that structure that they enjoy. So they're okay with the notion that I am inferior, my feminine attribute and you know, I want to be clear and sensitive to people when you're using feminine and male we're not talking about gender and sexual identity here we realize that there's gender fluidity But when we're talking about these structures, they're only recognizing men and women there, they don't care about trying to help people, or honor people's pronouns or their gender or sexual identity. So I'm talking specifically about this structure, you start to see how they Yeah, they very much are just perpetuating that system. And they're fine with being what they call the weaker sex, they're fine with believing that they don't they lack the mental capacity and the emotional load to be leaders, they're fine with that. And they will do their part to make sure women come under submission and in authority in obedience to that authority, they will do their part to correct women, chastise them and continue to keep them in line because they're getting rewarded by the hierarchical structure. And they feel like it's part of their salvation duty as a good Christian to do that. So you start to think about oh, okay, that makes sense to me. But also, then how is it impacting me? Where have I internalized that? Where do I believe that about myself? Where do I believe like, how long have I been told, I'm too emotional, I just last month, I got a man came into my doing a video about, I don't remember something. And he came in to tell me that he would like to have a conversation with me, but I was too emotional. And I was too angry. And I'm talking like I am now I can talk with confidence. I can talk with passion. But what he doesn't like is the fact that he's not going to talk over me and I will finish my sentences. And there's an energy that you give off when you are comfortable with who you are. And you can stand in that truth. Well, he immediately was trying to bring on a patriarchal narrative over me to say I will talk with you, but I'm going to control how you're going to behave in that. Well, that didn't go over well, as you can imagine.
KC 26:54
That's kind of like we've alluded this earlier. But that weaponization of mental health, it slides right in there. Because if you're emotional because you're a woman, and you know, emotions are unreasonable. And it's not the stoic logic on point, I mean, that butts right up to that weaponization of mental health too, because anything wrong with your mental health is weak is, you know, too sensitive, is too fragile, is too unstable, and is a result of you not being strong enough, or healthy enough in your faith. Whether that's, you know, Judeo Christian faith, or whether that's a new age, faith, or whether that's your mental health and sobriety, or whatever you have you is this, it's used to kneecap you. For
Karla 27:41
sure, that's a really good point, because it's like, it's twofold, where you are going to minimize or emphasize the fact that I'm an emotional person to affirm the fact that I lacked the ability to be in a leadership role. And then you're also going to then say that that has something to do with my lack of spiritual grounding. And then if by any chance you're you're seeking any kind of mental support, or emotional support through therapeutic means, then that absolutely means you lack faith. And not only is this harmful for women, this is so harmful for men who don't realize how much of their the problems that they deal with when it comes to their own inability to deal with their own emotions, that often lead to quite a bit of use is that they're denying the fact that they need mental therapy that they probably could do with medication to help stabilize some of what's happening with them, but they can not allow themselves to even go down that road at for the risk, or they risk their leadership being seen as a person in authority. So in their world, it's more important to become more aggressive, and to be more to be seen as a possible abuser. Because in that system, as sad as this is, they're protected, they are protected. The statistics are there look at the report that the Southern Baptist Convention just released this past summer of the hundreds and hundreds of pastors and church leaders who they have been protecting over the years who have legitimately abused members of their staff and members of the congregation and the Southern Baptist Convention left them in leadership. So this goes far beyond just any denominational problem where we all often hear it, you know, focused on some of what's happened in the Catholic Church. This goes in to nondenominational and Protestant churches, a nation Well, worldwide, I'm sure,
KC 29:41
and you're gonna find it. I mean, so I talked about it before this podcast, but for several years, probably like five years I belong to a high control group that was a 12 step group, and it was all run by one man at the top. He sponsored, I think five people, those five people sponsored 25 people, those 25 people sponsored 45 people that literally that was who was in the group, and it was very dogmatic, it is very controlling. And it had all of the hallmarks of a high control group. And it ran my life for five years. And shortly after I left, one of the things that came out was that several of the women that the top man was sponsoring one of them was being sexually abused by him. And that is one of the things that comes out a lot in some 12 Step groups. And sometimes people will look at that and be like, see, no one should go to a 12 step group. I don't believe that. I believe that 12 Step groups are on the hole very helpful for people. But the reason why I like to zoom out for a second is go well, no, anytime you're going to find high control groups, patriarchal structures, and things like this, I believe you will always find sexual crime, sexual ethics broken. I don't know why they are so part and parcel. But if you look at the Catholic Church, you see it. If you look at the Southern Baptist Church, you see it, if you look at the high control group, tall ship group that I belong to, you saw it and one of the things that I found really interesting about it, we look at a lot of cults and you see it, like eventually the head guy is screwing everyone and controlling the reproductive health of all the members. One of the things I thought was interesting with the twin flames documentary is it starts out as Oh, you're gonna take our course and you'll definitely find your soulmate. And then like people didn't find their soulmate. So then all of a sudden, they were like, well, actually, we're gonna sign you soulmate. And they started assigning people in the group, even they would assign men and women together, even women and women together who like weren't gay, maybe like no buts, guys, you're actually a man not transition, because men and women must be men and women, and then it moved to this other iteration of, and now we're all going to have babies. And these are going to be the golden children. And they will be special children just like okay, well, now they have a problem, because they just matched up a bunch of women together. So then they start talking about, well, we just need to get sperm donors. And so they start hooking up sperm donors, and then the guy who's running the call comes out and is like, no, no, we will make the decision about who can be the sperm donors for these golden children. And the documentary kind of ends at that. And I look over at my friend, we're not here, and she and I were both in our control group. And we're like, what do you want to bet at some point, this guy comes out and says that he's the only one that can be the sperm donor for all of these golden children. He's the only one that can have sex with all these women in his cult. And I mean, that's what I'm saying. Like, it's always, they always dance together, right. And the sexual exploitation almost always shows up when patriarchy is in full force, whether it's government, religion, New Age, spirituality, 12 Step groups like it's not a problem necessarily with church or government or new age, spirituality or recovery. It's a problem with patriarchy, and with high control and with power,
Karla 32:47
very true. And also that twin flames documentary reminded me of the story of Keith Renier. And I cannot remember the name of that documentary, I'm really bad about remembering different details. There's also a follower, I don't know, if you cite, if you have a place where you cite sources on your podcast, their name is escaping me, but I follow them. And each week, they do a summary of the cases that have come out of abuse nationwide, hundreds of cases. And by far, the leading source is from religion, and the entire year. Now I could be wrong, but I'm not, it's not going to be too far off in the entire year of 23 of all the 1000s of cases that they have the data on, and it's all verifiable data, there is either one or none, that's a drag queen. So this whole notion, this deflection that happens that says that the source of our problems is over there, when really it's a case of smoke and mirrors. And you're almost always looking within to say Who are we protecting? And here's
KC 33:52
the other thing, the issue isn't individual abusers, because there might be someone out there that dresses and drag, that's an abuser. Now, the fact that dress in drag has no relation to the fact that our abuser, like abusers just exist, right. But the reason why you see so much more of it coming out of religion is because of the high control systems that are designed to protect abusers. Abusers will always exist. It's a broken thing that happens in with very broken people that choose to do immoral things. Right. The bigger issue and I don't mean bigger as and more important, I just mean literally, more widespread bigger is the systems that keep those abusers safe, that perpetuate abusers that silence victims that make victims feel as though it's their fault that like that's why you see so much more coming out of religion is because when they're constructed like hierarchical high control groups, it's protecting people and it's silencing people. And it's that's my soapbox on that.
Karla 34:57
Oh, for sure. And I think because we were talking to about one of the things you said at the beginning, and we've touched on it a little bit is the whole correlation between mental health and religious trauma. One of the things that is very disturbing, but why it's so important to recognize that there are traumatic events that happen inside organized religion. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a high control religion for this to happen. Any place where there is a rigid patriarchal structure, which you can also find in progressive churches. Now, this isn't me saying I'm completely anti church, I will offer spiritual counseling to people that the goal is to help them get back to navigate back to church, the point is that we have to understand the structure in which it's built so that you're going back into something that's healthy, and that where the systems of control don't exist. But when you find these rigid structures, and where people have experienced some kind of religious trauma, the chances of them being re victimized, or if they have been a victim of abuse somewhere in their past their the chances are highly likely that they will be re victimized inside one of these structures. Because the perpetrators are the abusers. They know how to do it, and they know how to target their victims. So whether that is something that is more or less on the passive side that has nothing to do with physical abuse. So let's say the mental abuse and the emotional abuse of women inside a structure that says that you are less than that, because of who you are, you're not allowed to be seen to be valued as a total person, or you have no agency over your body or the decisions that you make, those are somehow taken away from you. Or it is something more horrific and tragic, like the actual physical abuse of a child or a young adult or someone else, these things are very, very real. So allowing people to understand that this patriarchy also this patriarchal thinking, also can make you more susceptible to abuse, but also the fact that you don't believe that you deserve relief, that you somehow have been a victim of it because of something that you've done wrong. And so you can leave those systems thinking that just like you said, you're not just deconstructing from your religious beliefs, but deconstructing from patriarchy. If we don't understand how patriarchy has silenced our voices, we often end up right back in those troubling situations where not just that we're in a high control group, where we have the chance or risk of being abused again. So we know there's a lot to unpack here, these conversations with me tend to get really heavy, really quickly. And I'm trying to laugh to kind of elevate that. But I think it is important, especially for people who are dealing with any kind of issue that they're trying to live your people or want to reclaim their lives in some way, shape, or form and spirituality. In my mind, spirituality is more of a reflection and an integration of the human condition, this hyper focus on salvation that turns us away from the pain of the world, including our own pain. So that in and of itself can be problematic if we start to understand that spirituality is more about how we show up in the world, how we show up in our lives, how we can elevate help elevate the human condition, leave this world a better place, because we were in it, then literally can find heaven on earth, which if you deconstruct Jesus's teachings from some of those things that were related to how people want to manipulate them to confirm their faith, it sounds more about what Jesus was talking about, how do we have heaven on earth? Well, we do that by creating dismantling these systems of oppression that enraged him. Don't forget, he's the one who physically went in there and flipped the money exchange tables because of corrupt systems. We have the roadmap that said spiritual autonomy is ours. And we should reclaim our spirituality so that we can live the life that we are that feels right for us move towards the people then who believe like we do, and not to to overpower others but to live in harmony, live in harmony with the way other people are finding spirituality the way other people are finding their spiritual truth.
KC 39:28
I'm just realizing that we have not actually said the name of your book yet. So will you tell people what the name of your book is and where they can find it?
Karla 39:34
Well, it's interesting because I don't know. I'm in my second edit, so I'm hot in it. That's the reason why I didn't even plan on honestly, I did not plan on mentioning it. But I'm like, I'm hours away from having to hit my deadline for submitting the second round of edits. Okay,
KC 39:50
well, then where can they find you on social media? They can follow you and wait for the book to come out. Absolutely.
Karla 39:54
Rev. carla.com. Carla with a K. And I'm Rev. Carla Allen. tick tock and Instagram and Facebook. So yeah, you can find me and I do have a podcast spirituality matters with Rev Karla that I dabble in every once in a while.
KC 40:09
Well, thank you so much for your time and this has been such a great conversation. This
Karla 40:13
has been wonderful. Thank you. It's been an honor
Transcribed by https://otter.ai