93: Trad Wives and the Leisure Class with Professor Neil Shyminsky
We are continuing with the topic of trad wives, but we are taking a different angle in this conversation. I’m joined by Professor Neil Shyminsky, who is an English professor at Cambrian College in Sudbury, Ontario. He doesn’t teach a lot about literature but likes to focus on media studies, gender/sexuality studies, and socio-political thought. We begin with a clip of Professor Neil explaining the concept of the “leisure class” as it relates to trad wife content. Join us!
Show Highlights:
The “other” side of trad wife content: an idealized performance of domesticity and romanticization of a woman’s role
Professor Neil defines “the leisure class.”
Don’t always believe the story the camera shows! (It’s all carefully curated content!)
Social signals in how we “perform” our gender
Trad wives as the moral purity status symbol of their husband’s godliness and enjoyers of God’s richest blessings from living a life of submission
Thinking critically is key to understanding the truth about the values they promote.
The difference between liking traditionally feminine things and being a content creator who makes active choices about how they present their enjoyment of traditionally feminine things
The comparison between trad wife content and MLMs
Professor Neil’s advice: “Be thoughtful and self-reflective in what you consume.”
Resources and Links:
Connect with Professor Neil Shyminsky: TikTok, Instagram, X, and LinkedIn
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC 0:05
Hello you Cynthia balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, Casey Davis. And we've been talking about Trad wives on the podcast recently. And I wanted to share with you a tick tock that I found that talks about an angle of Trad wives that we haven't really covered yet.
Neil Shyminsky 0:23
This looks at cereal so cereal It was started right away. Have you ever asked yourself why it is that Trad wives and other conservative female influencers who promote traditional gender roles have all the time in the world to make cereal from scratch, but somehow never seem to record themselves doing essential domestic labor like vacuuming trying to get a particularly nasty stain out of a shirt or scrubbing a toilet? When they are performing labor in these videos. It's always something that strictly speaking is unnecessary and they are doing it the hardest way possible, because the answer is that it is for show it is all a performance. And he's remarkably prescient at 99 booklet theory of the leisure class, Thorstein Veblen coined the terms conspicuous consumption and conspicuous leisure suggesting that those with wealth and power no longer having any economic production to contribute themselves, instead contribute to the production and consumption of leisure. And those consumption practices. Those leisure activities are conspicuous precisely because that is how the leisure class signals their difference from the working class signals their exceptionality and their superiority they're not better than us because they can make their children's cereal from scratch. They're better than us because they are so wealthy and well off that they have nothing more important to worry about. And if we were to ever see Trad wives perform essential productive domestic labor or see their husbands perform any domestic labor at all, that would in fact mark them as failures as Trad wives stapling wrote in 1899. Again, he could have written it yesterday. Application productive labor is a mark of poverty and subjection, it becomes inconsistent with a reputable standing in the community. Because these videos are not instructional. They're maybe inspirational, but they are always performative. This is not real labor. This is symbolically It is nothing more than social signaling that this woman and her family and belong to the leisure class and it is also how she builds and signals her value if you are the sort of person who operates within an exchange economy that assigns high and low value to human beings because her value to her husband is not in her ability to care for the home or care for the children, right. Anyone who is able to engage in this level of conspicuous leisure has somebody that they are paid to do all of those things know her value is instead in her ability to perform the role of trophy wife and to be the ultimate realization and personification of her husband's socio economic prowess. Because Trad wives are conspicuous consumers, yes, but it is the audience's consumption of grad wives that truly makes them valuable to their husbands. Okay,
KC 3:04
so there's a lot to unpack there. And that Tiktok, by the way, was by a Creator called Professor Neil and I actually have Professor Neil with me here in my online studio. Professor Neil Szymanski. Hello, thanks
Neil Shyminsky 3:18
for having me.
KC 3:19
Yeah. Thank you for coming on. Okay, so you're a professor of English and you told me where but I forgotten
Neil Shyminsky 3:24
it said Cambrian College in Sudbury, Ontario. Excellent, separate.
KC 3:28
I only know where Sudbury is or what Sudbury is because of Letterkenny.
Neil Shyminsky 3:34
That is totally fair. I think most people know us for that reason.
KC 3:39
So first of all, I want to thank you for the time that you came, you know, are taking out of your time to come and talk about this. Tell me a little bit about like, why did this pique your interest? Why is this even like an area of interest to you?
Neil Shyminsky 3:50
Sure. Well, despite my job title, being English professor, I don't teach a whole lot of literature. So even this past year, I've been teaching things like media studies, Gender and Sexuality Studies. My graduate training is actually in social and political thought, which, you know, a lot of people think that, don't you just teach people about books? Why is it that you talk about these topics and in fairness at that, but I'm actually much more interested in sort of socio cultural phenomenon and so Trad wives are just such odd little duck and the way that I actually originally came to it was through I don't know if you're familiar with this creator on tick tock, I don't even know if she's still around, but she would do it videos and ask is this fetish content?
KC 4:38
Yes, because there's all those weird videos of people doing like cooking, but it's like the worst recipe ever. And the nails are always done really nice.
Neil Shyminsky 4:47
Yeah. And you only ever see their hands in extreme close up and there's a lot of squishy and crunchy things. So this particular creator started dueting travel activity to ask, you know, what? Is this just a performance for, you know the benefit of people that like this sort of over the top costuming and vocal effect and these very demonstrative sort of recipes and cooking experiences, or is this actually a sincere act? And so that was how I came to actually discover these and I think she was making videos on I think it was yesterday with her her Marilyn Monroe ask aesthetic, which absolutely like it. I also question with you this a costume or is this actually sincere? And then I just sort of dove into this wild wild world of Trad, wife influencers? Yeah,
KC 5:49
I mentioned on other episodes, kind of like can, everyone might have a slightly different definition of Trad wife, for me as someone who you know, I'm an extra angelical. And so like, I first came on to Trad wife as a concept in the context of like, American fundamentalist Christian world, right. And it was kind of like this OG woman who had a big Facebook group that would talk about how like sinful It was to be a working mom and, and all this stuff. And she put out all this weird propaganda. And so I had seen that 15 years ago, and so when it started popping back up on Tik Tok, I was like, Oh, I know what this is. And for me, because I knew that the actual term Trad wife came from a religious, Christian religious background, I sort of consider like being conservatively religious and specific, conservatively Christian to be like a very key part of the criteria. But there's certainly lots of like Trad wife adjacent, like women out there, but it kind of comes down to like this performance of domesticity and this romanticization of like a woman's role in the family and society as being home and being caretakers and having children and how great that is. And some of them, I think are more overtly religious, and others aren't like the one that you're talking about in this video that I played. She doesn't have like, overt religious messaging in her actual content. But we do know, because she has told us that she is Mormon, which we know most Mormons have some pretty conservative gendered beliefs and roles. And what's kind of like behind the curtain for some of them and explicitly stated and others is this idea that like, as a woman, we will be most happy when we embrace the role that God has given us, which is to be in the home. Now, that being said, I think what's funny about that is that as someone who has been making content about like home labor for a few years, no part of my content is like luxuriously romantic, like, it's pretty much about how much laundry fucking sucks and how hard it is to get the dishes done. It's like no part of that looks anything like the way that this gets kind of glamorized. And part of what was so interesting about your stitch that I wanted to talk about today is this idea of this sort of echelon of Trad, wife influencers that are in the leisure class, because they aren't all right. So let's start with like, What do you mean when you say leisure class, because like, I'm familiar with like, lower class, middle class, upper class, but I'm not sure where leisure class lays on top of those understandings.
Neil Shyminsky 8:27
That's a very appropriate use of words, because it does lay on top of all of the rest. So the leisure class, it's this term that was developed at the end of the 19th century by the Economist Thorstein Veblen. And what he says is that the leisure class is this small subsection of the upper class that is so wealthy, so privileged that they are totally exempted from having to produce any, they don't need to perform productive labor. They don't need to be useful at all. So what can they possibly do with their lives, they can produce leisure, they can perform leisure, they are aspirational figures, they perform something that is, in a very literal sense, unattainable for 99% of us because they're above all of it. And they need to show us that they are above all of it. So
KC 9:22
is this stuff like philanthropy and ribbon cutting and you know, just going on a yacht for the summer? Like, is that what you mean by like, not having to produce anything or by like producing leisure? It could
Neil Shyminsky 9:35
be I think, in the context of these Trad wife influencers that we're talking about. It is something like Nora Smith in that video, who spends however many hours making cereal from scratch, which is totally unrealistic for the large majority of us especially because at the beginning of her video, she says that our children are hungry. Obviously they are not eating that cereal because They will be kicking and screaming in the background, unless you
KC 10:04
stay quiet long enough for me to like open the string cheese they've asked.
Neil Shyminsky 10:09
Exactly. So unless there is somebody you know off camera, who is feeding them while she goes through the motions of preparing food for them, so somebody is doing that necessary productive labor and he or she is walking us through this demo of you know what it could be like to feed them if you know there was actually any chance that this food they would be so it's this leisure class. Conspicuous labor is the pageantry of work in a lot of cases. So it could also just be hanging out on a yacht Yes, like travel influencers? Absolutely. Performing this leisure class work too.
KC 10:54
So I kind of also thinking about like Jane Austen books, were like, we're having balls, we're going on hunts. We're like, but like, they're not like scrubbing the fireplaces or cooking the food. Right? That's interesting. Or like even like there are some homesteader content creators that like there are people that are like really homesteading and but then like, there are people that you find out like, are like Van life where it's like, you find out like, no, like, they actually have very wealthy parents, they bought this van with their money or like, they actually hire people in town to come and build this chicken coop for them so that they can then film videos of them going out to pick the fresh eggs to make their breakfast. And talk about like how quaint and lovely homesteading is, right?
Neil Shyminsky 11:38
Right. When all of the you know, the real, the dirty work is happening somewhere just off camera being taken care of by somebody else who is enabling them to live this lifestyle. We don't get to see any of that. Yeah. Okay.
KC 11:53
So and does it have to be both? Like, this is so fun. I don't know why I'm like really drilling down on trying to understand this, because some of what you're under, but some of what you have said, I'm going to be so honest, I've been like, am I the leisure class?
Neil Shyminsky 12:09
I don't think I know enough about your life to be able to answer that question.
KC 12:12
I think I might be. But I mean, my husband works. He has a job. He's a lawyer. We're not we don't have trust funds. We don't have to not work. So I mean, I don't think but like at the same time? I don't have to he does, but I don't Sure. I
Neil Shyminsky 12:25
mean, I think the fact that one of you has to that one of you has to perform productive labor at the leisure classes is a much smaller sliver of the population than I think most of us would get, oh,
KC 12:37
you're talking about like the 1% 1%. Like, truly, I have enough money in the bank to live off interest for the rest of my life in wealth apps. Well, okay. But what that brings up for me is how many people are trying to give the impression that they are the leisure class because I even thinking like, okay, Nora is like a working model. And I think her husband was a working model. I don't know if they also have family money. And yet, like their performance of being the leisure class is probably like pretty pervasive as just like its own phenomenon. Oh, definitely.
Neil Shyminsky 13:12
Like this is where it starts to intersect with that prosperity, gospel sort of rhetoric, right, like the sort of conspicuous consumption that we see happening in these videos, like, look at all of my amazing things, look at the way that I can spend my time because I don't need to be toiling and working the way that all of you do. That's also a way of like manifesting the sort of existence that they're showcasing because it's very possible that yeah, there is work that has to be happening, but it's not on camera, that it's not on camera, and maybe if you know, if we wish this life this existence, if we sell it hard enough, then we can bring it into being full time to
KC 13:57
Well, it's interesting when you overlay the religious aspect with the leisure class because I think when I think leisure class in kind of the US maybe like I think Kim Kardashian is like probably what comes to my mind is like one of the most prominent examples and yet her consumption of wealth or her like demonstration of wealth, whether it's jewels or brand names, or whatever, like it's very different than someone like Nora Smith or something like another big one is ballerina farms. So ballerina Farms is another content creator on tick tock who is often called a Trad wife because a lot of her content is her I guess it's a farmhouse but not like Chip and Joanna Gaines farmhouse, like true looking farmhouse. And she's wearing like a linen apron. This is not videotape but don't tell anybody. I am currently wearing linen apron. She's wearing a linen apron and she's making like sourdough bread from scratch and there's like an old timey stove behind her and her kid They're also in like sad beige kid clothing like running around barefoot, right? And there's like a smattering of aesthetic flower around, she's doing this and there's like some sort of garden or chickens or something out front. And it wasn't very long before people discovered she was married to like the heir to the Jet Blue fortune, and that the old timey stove was an Agha stove, which is like a $30,000 stove. So I just thought it was really interesting how it's like the sometimes the same level of wealth as someone that we would think of as being like leisure class, but like their performance of it specifically as women is very niche, I think.
Neil Shyminsky 15:37
Sure, yeah. And can manifest in, you know, a variety of ways. Like you were saying, I think the important thing here is this idea that it's always very carefully curated. And that's what we can miss if if we're not, we're approaching it critically, even as you were just saying, you know, I don't know whether Nora Smith is still a working model, but there is the job there behind all of it. And I don't know that any of us are aware of just how wealthy they are. Could they could they retire tomorrow? I'm not sure there. I actually wanted to go back ever so briefly to an earlier question where you're asking, like, am I part of the leisure class, and I think any of us, you know, it's not just, you know, the 1% of the 1%, who can, in moments participate in that sort of conspicuous consumptive practice, because any of us with any access to privilege and wealth can do it in moments, even if it's just, you know, to show off something that you bought, or somewhere that you went to post, you know, pictures from your vacation on Instagram, we are participating in that in moments? No, we're being you know, a little showy and ostentatious about where we've gone, and what we've done and the things that we have. And we are also, I mean, I would certainly also not like posting video, where I'm like vacuuming or washing the dishes. Although I will say that when I used to go on lives, I would make a point of going on lives. While I was ironing clothes, I wanted to be doing something domestic. I mean, in part because I wanted to multitask. But also, I wanted to make a point of doing something that was feminine coded, every time I would be on a live just so that people would know visually what it was that I would be doing. That is
KC 17:29
so fascinating, because I was literally just about to ask you like when you brought up the idea that like keeping in mind this is all curated is like, you know, I mentioned that, you know, my content for many years was specifically about domestic care tasks. And you know, me cooking and cleaning all this. But that was also curated. And I'm not saying it was not true, or it was inauthentic or it was but it's like, realistically, like every single thing we put online is curated. And those of us who I think have large accounts or kind of do it professionally, like we are altra curated, like we know exactly what we are trying to shape and give. And then even as you're talking about, like I am thinking about, you know, doing something feminine coded like that is a curated moment. So what is the difference? Because sometimes when we talk about like it's all curated, we talk about like, I think some people talk about, like that's a bad thing, or that's a disingenuous or a lie or it's wrong or whatever. But it's not just that Trad wives who are engaging in conspicuous consumption and sort of flashing those signifiers of the leisure class, it's not just that they are curating, right, because we're all curating I curate. But there's something else happening, though, that makes it it's about like, what are we curating? And why right, yes,
Neil Shyminsky 18:49
absolutely. The way that I saw I have these discussions in classrooms to know so we talk about, you know, how his gender perform. And so I asked students to think about how they socially signify what is it that you are trying to communicate to others with the way that you dress the way that you style yourself? Because we are all trying to communicate something even if all you're trying to communicate is I don't care, I am indifferent. And so then you're right. It's not just a matter of pointing out like this is curated choices. Okay, what are those choices? And why? What is it that they are trying to communicate? What are they trying to signify? And I think that you don't have to look very far below the surface of what Trad wives are signifying to get the curious way. And you know, the one part of the video that you played that I made where I listened to it, and I'm like, I wish I had those, in my words better there because I use the phrase that I think that my attention is clear enough, but I said trophy wives, and it just it has a connotation that I don't like. I mean, it's the sort of phrase that would be used by the People that I don't want to find myself in agreement with. But the point there being that I think a lot of Trad wives do see that part of their role is to be an indication of their husband success, they realize that they are a status symbol for their husband. And so they need to be able to show that he is making enough money to keep me from having to work that he can afford the clothes that want the lifestyle that I am leading. And so she herself becomes a sort of luxury commodity that he possesses. And I think that is where this conversation can go in sort of an interesting way that is beyond just, you know, she's carefully curating her life. Well, she is also trying to show the world like, look at how successful my family and my husband are, because He enables me to do all of these things.
KC 20:57
And I think that's again, where that cross section of like leisure class versus like, the religious propaganda props up because there's this, you know, I mean, listen, both ballerina farms and Nora Smith are beautiful, and it's a far cry from the jean skirts, and Bumble bangs of the Duggars. And which was like, that's kind of the ilk that had previously represented in media, this idea of a woman should be at home, a woman should be modest, or whatever. So like, they're a pretty powerful apologetic for that. But I mean, in a religion, which I would even say a socio religious political movement that says, you know, there are strict gender roles, and women are best at home, I think that a woman performing that labor and curating it in such a way that she is happy and peaceful, and has all this time. And it's such a luxury like that, in and of itself is a pretty powerful religious propaganda to oh, you know, this idea that we as women are subjugated and abused, because what the church loves to do is to say, when you point to abuses and women being you know, subjugated, or abused, or a man sort of lording over a woman, they'll say, Well, that's not an issue with the system. That's not an issue with gender roles. That's an issue of individual sin, a man acting that way is in sin, and they shouldn't do that bad man don't do that you should love and honor and like they, there's this apologetic of like, it's an individual failing, of a divinely good order. And if we could just reach everybody, and sort of convinced them to sanctify themselves into good godly men will then the women would be protected. And I think that at the same time, they become the status symbol of their husbands. Well, there's also this idea that they're, I think, like the moral purity status symbol of how godly their husband is, right? He's such a good man, he cares. He serves, he protects. Yes, he's the leader. And I submit to him, but I love to submit to Him, because I just know he's going to care for me. And that submission, he still listens to my opinions. But Ah, what a wonderful load off of the mental load I carry, to not have to worry about all these things, which I think is like a fascinating cross section of, you know, and you mentioned prosperity gospel, and I think that's a big part of it is like, hey, if we were to lean into God's ordained order of things, you know, might he bless us in this way? And they don't come out and say that maybe those will be financial blessings. But I think it's pretty obvious. And
Neil Shyminsky 23:45
I think this gets at the whole question of why it is important for us to be sort of spoilsports and say, like, No, you really got to look critically at this. There's a real danger in saying, well, but the people are so pretty, and their homes are so beautiful. And they're nice. Yeah. And they seem like so sweet. And when their husbands do appear, you know, it's like, coming into the background and hugging them and kissing them on the neck and then disappearing. And yeah, it's so easy to just get sucked into me know, okay, I can't consume the luxury that they have, but I can consume them consuming it. You know, I have that vicarious experience. And then I think it's a very short jump to Well, I wish I could have that life, mate. Maybe I can find some of those signifiers myself. Maybe I should look for a partner like that one, you know, and is it realistic? Is it attainable? Almost certainly not.
KC 24:49
Do you think that's what the choices come down to like when we talked about how we're all curating but it's about we all know intentional choices are being made with the display in Mind, but I wonder if that's what it comes down to is like whether or not the display is intended to give the impression that what they have or they're doing or they're proposing is attainable by you. Because as you said, like this labor is being done off screen. Like when I watch Maurice Smith make cereal, I feel warm and fuzzy. I feel like maybe I would like to wake up tomorrow and make some sourdough, right. But like, that doesn't matter. Like the feeling I get when I watch her cook, is not the feeling I experience when I try to cook for my family. Right, like, and she knows that we all know that. But like, when you decide to iron during a live, because you want to signify, you know that whatever it is, you're trying like, this is a safe place, or I'm not going to shame you or I'm a man who, you know, doesn't adhere to these roles, like that is something that someone could go, oh, I trust this person. And they think this and maybe that inspires me, or, Oh, he feels competent to do this. And maybe I could emulate that. Like, you know what I mean, on my own content, when I'm like, I'm Yes, I'm curating my you know, you people genuinely have no idea what the inside of my house looks like on a day to day basis. They just know what I put online. But I'm still curating with the aim of creating something that is helpful and model knowable. And imitatable, if that makes sense.
Neil Shyminsky 26:33
Yeah. So I think actually, the you brought it back to the example that I gave about ironing on alive, which I think allows me to explain what I think they are going for what aiming for because your rights. Realistically, I can't imagine that a Trad wife the influencer that Nora Smith thinks that we're gonna go away and try to bake what she baked. Like, what took her three hours, but
KC 26:58
I think she made like cinnamon toast crunch from scratch. Like, I think the only thing she didn't do was go like tear the wheat or like, whatever that part of it is, right? But she truly Yeah, like when she makes it. If people don't know, when she makes like a pizza, she makes the cheese. Like I'm not talking Oh, she bakes the bread and puts the nut like she like is making cheese in her kitchen. And then like baking the bread from scratch, and then like probably in like squishing the tomatoes. Like it's a whole thing. Sure.
Neil Shyminsky 27:27
And it's you know, how likely is it to just reduce you to tears if you attempt to recreate it, right? Like it's she's not converting anyone who is attempting to to actually duplicate that. But I also, you know, when I was ironing on lives, it wasn't with the idea that somebody would come to me looking for pointers about you know, how do I get, you know, such a crisp look in my collared shirt? No, it was, I'm signaling that like, this is a safe space, that I am the kind of man who is doing this domestic labor. And so then you can make certain assumptions about what is that you can ask and what I might say it I think it tells you a little something about, you know, like my ethos, my moral values. And I think that is what is happening with the activities that they're undertaking. It's not that they literally think that you're going to come to them with advice, or you'll attempt to duplicate the recipe that they're working on. But they are saying something about who they are and what is safe to talk to them about what sort of information they'll supply you with. And so that recipe is just a bit of a lure to really, if you stick around for the lifestyle stuff, then maybe you'll start to absorb some of the deeper potentially religious but certainly moral and ethical teaching that they would like you to actually absorb.
KC 28:54
Yeah, it's interesting because I'm kind of thinking back even to like the homesteader content, which I think could have some parallels here is that like, I have seen homesteader content of, you know, young, beautiful girls who again, right, like they hired someone in town to make the chicken coop so that they can film the video of them going to the ag and we know then they stay at a hotel sometimes and all this kind of stuff. And it's like what is the value that they are trying to say, Hey, this is what I value, but also this is what my value is. And I think about like I have one mutual on Tiktok who owns a farm her and her husband bought a farm and like they do the exact same tasks that these homesteaders talk about, they go get their eggs, they go herd their sheep, the choices that my mutual makes about how she like displays what it's like to live her lifestyle are completely different. Like it's not she's never She's always got her hair pulled back. She's always a little sweaty. She'll come on and tell the story about how they lost some money on the goats or how like, oh my god, this is so much work and sometimes I wear worry about XYZ. And again, like she's still curating what she chooses to share. But it is a completely different value set and a completely different like she's making a completely different commentary on what is valuable, what she believes is valuable about her. I don't know, I haven't like fully flushed this out yet.
Neil Shyminsky 30:19
No, I see the point that you're making though, we could also make the comparison between you know that those videos of Trad wives making sourdough bread versus somebody who's actually trying to teach us how to make whatever recipe it is they're following. And it's also very honest about, you know, everything that is required everything that you'll need to have in your cupboard in your kitchen, if you even want to undertake this in the first place. Like I remember buying the very first cookbook that I bought, and living as a single guy who wanted to have, you know, the bare essentials in my kitchen, and I was looking at this Jamie Oliver cookbook. And he had like, you know, all of the essential spices, and it was like 35 different things that I needed to have. And I'm like, I can't even afford to buy the bare minimum. How am I supposed to do anything? And don't get that impression when you're just watching them on TV? Right? Yeah,
KC 31:18
well, okay, and so, with, let's talk about bread, because I don't know if you follow Hannah bread talk. Okay, so Hannah bread talk makes bread, literally, the entire thing is bread. And it's not about how to bake bread. I mean, she is like, some of them are kind of thirst Trappy. And but like, but not in a hyper feminine way. Not in a Trad wife way, in a almost like queer coded lots of sort of like not taking yourself seriously. They're really funny. And so, you know, when we think about, you know, going back to this question of like, what is the danger of consuming this or any type of content without thinking critically? And if we are thinking critically, is there something that makes art so like, had a bread talk is not trying to teach you how to make bread, either. She's also curating her content, she's also making a statement about who she is or what she values or what she finds valuable in the world, which may be, you know, a number of things, what should if I'm just like a consumer, right, maybe I'm your 21 year old niece, and you're telling me like things that I need to be thinking about as I'm consuming content. If I'm looking at Nora Smith, or ballerina farms, and I'm looking at Hannah bread talking, I'm going okay, they're both baking bread, neither of them are trying to teach me how to bake bread. Both of them are curating this content and making choices and showing me what they value, you know, what makes one something I should you know, critique or look down on or what makes, you know, a Trad wife presentation of their values, you know, better or worse or different or more critical than Hannah's you know, curating of around baking bread, because I think that there is something there like why we all feel so critical of Trad, wife content,
Neil Shyminsky 33:01
I wish I'm gonna have to look this up as soon as we finish the call, because now I really want to watch and read talk, I think the short answer is that we need to be critical of all of it. You know, being critical of you know, even this red talk account is how you would realize, I think, you know, that she's, you know, she's also performative, but in a way that is not stereotypically feminine, or even in a way that reads as as queer or gender bending. So it's that criticality that allows us to get out okay, well, what is the messaging? What, what are they trying to communicate to me values underlie their performance. And to the extent though, that you know, what, we land on it as well, and much harsher and more negative in my evaluation of Trad wives, it would be their performance is restrictive, that it implies judgment of people who don't adhere to it. And that, you know, reduces the women that we are seeing in many ways to sort of secondary figures in their own lives because it's sure we're getting a peek behind the scenes, but the sphere in which they operate is very small, very limiting, in a way that you know, somebody who is having fun with gender roles and expectations and can have fun in in a variety of different ways is not limited is not restricted.
KC 34:33
And how is that different? If I am someone who would say in defense well, but this is how I enjoy my gender role. I like hyper femininity, I like you know, the LaCie pajamas I wear when I bake the bread I like Like what would be the response if it to that kind of defense?
Neil Shyminsky 34:52
Sure in that response is one that you know, to take it back to the discussion of the leisure class. That's the way that people have been raised bonding to Thorstein Veblen and his criticisms for 100 years now, why can't I just like what I like I like caviar? Yes. Why do you have to pull politics into it? And you know, I'm totally sympathetic to that. I like some conservatively masculine coded activities to like, I played baseball. I like fantasy sports. I don't think it gets much more like, white dude, bro.
KC 35:31
Well, and to add to that, I am attracted to those type of like, traditionally coat masculine coded, like, I don't have beliefs about a man being better or worse because of it. Or that I think, you know, oh, if you have feelings, you know, that's a threat to you're like, I don't have that kind of toxic masculinity. But at the same time, like, oh, I don't, I am actually attracted to some of these things, which I think goes kind of hand in hand with what you're talking about. We
Neil Shyminsky 35:59
grew up in this culture, we're going to absorb some of this, whether we like it or not. And we can only be so hard on ourselves, because you know, how much control do we truly have. So if you're watching a Tredway video, and you're like, and Ashley, I like the frilly aprons, I like to cook for my family, the difference is that you've come to that is something that you have actively chosen, knowing that other choices are available to you that nobody is compelling, you is requiring you to make those choices, which is different, fundamentally different from living in a world where this is the only choice available to you, or this is the only right choice that is available to you.
KC 36:45
This is the only right choice is a big one. Well, that and like, and you've
Neil Shyminsky 36:49
just got to find a way to be cool. Yeah. Well, and
KC 36:53
if I mean, there's a big difference between being someone who likes traditionally feminine things and being a content creator, who is making active choices about how they present their enjoyment of traditionally feminine things, a huge difference, because I like traditionally feminine things. And I will make intentional choices, with the knowledge of the political realities about like, there are people out there who want women to only be able to perform X, Y, Z, or whatever. And I think that's what it came down to, for me, which is like, you know, content creators are making active choices. And so what are those choices that they're making, and the track wife stick, remind, and even Trad wife adjacent stuff, where it's a lot of romanticization an aesthetic performance of femininity? Just as a side note, I think it's interesting how Trad wives are performing, what femininity is, quote, unquote, supposed to look like at their wealth level. Right? Like they can still be beautiful, and wear makeup and do all these things. But they're meek and they're humble, and they don't they even turn, you know, they're not going to tell you the Augusto is $30,000. But they'll put it in the background of the video and somebody will figure it out. Anyways, point is, the trapway thing feels like an MLM to me, it feels like and the reason for that is that when women get involved with MLMs, which is multilevel marketing, where they're selling Herbalife or Plexus or whatever, there's this presentation of like, the marketing is their life, like look how successful the business is, and look how much we can afford now that business is so successful, but it doesn't match the reality of what the majority of people experience that are trying to sell multilevel marketing products like we know the majority of people trying to sell multi level marketing are either not making money and many of them are losing money that like 90% are not successful at that and go through significant stress and hardships. And yet there are these intentional choices whether because you know it and are ignoring it or because you maybe don't know all of it. To present as though this value set will lead to financial freedom and happiness and comfort and the leisure class and I feel like that's the same way that I look at Trad wife content where it's like, there's this intentional choices to say, hey, this value set it will lead to this kind of life like me this happiness like me this piece like me this leisure, class access like me, but we know that's not true. Like we know that women living in like overly gendered cultures where they are not allowed autonomy or access or like we know that that doesn't lead to happiness and peace and prosperity for women.
Neil Shyminsky 39:49
We know right? It's the the mere possibility, I think is enough for so many people because you can tell people You know, there's only a 10% chance that you are ever going to make money on this venture. But we all like to think that we're in that 10%. You know that? Yeah, you're describing me, when you say it's the same sort of lofty goals that so many people set when you know, they start becoming content creators on apps, thinking like, I have as much to say, or I am as intelligent or I am as attractive as A, B and C creators. Surely, I can also get a million followers, how hard can it be? So I can certainly see how and why that's not necessarily good enough. And in terms of an argument to dissuade people from attempting to follow that lifestyle. And it's a remarkably similar complaint to the one that I make of, you know, these manosphere dating coaches who promise all kinds of success if you listen to them. And we know that that simply is not going to be true. But the people who are paying them for advice, who are paying them for their coaching services certainly seem to be convinced that you know, like, No, I am one of the 10% that will be wildly successful, we may all just be very bad at math.
KC 41:21
Yeah, that's interesting. So where do we land this plane with, you know, kind of going back to that, like, Am I not allowed to just enjoy things, right? Like, I think I would guess correctly that neither you nor I has some sort of prescriptive proclamation at the end of this about what people should or shouldn't watch or engage in or enjoy or whatever. I mean, I think for me, like, you know, not Trad wife, ducks, I don't even enjoy watching that. But when it came to like, I always the trap for me was always like outdoorsy content, like somebody cooking something over a fire with snow in the background in a tent, I'd be like, Oh, that makes me feel so peaceful to watch that is like, realizing that like I would not be peaceful if I was experiencing. And then just being like, that's so I get it, that's fine, I still look at it. I still enjoy the warm, fuzzy feeling it gives me but I don't delude myself into thinking that I need to go buy a tent. And I even do that sometimes with like feminine aesthetic content, like I do sometimes like to watch that someone cook something beautiful, or someone shows something really well organized. And I just tried to remind myself like, I'm consuming this as art that makes me feel good. Same thing with my fantasy books. Like sometimes I'll read a book, a fantasy book, and you know, you're really into the romance plot. And what makes the romance so passionate is like they might die. And there's a part of you that's like, I just I wish I could live in a fantasy book. And then I will literally be like, actually, like if I was genuinely and I'm looking over at my husband and like if we were genuinely in a position where like we like the fate of the fairy world rested on our shoulders, and one of us might die. We would not be having fun. Like we would be giving anything to trade places with a couple of boring humans, like get to lay in bed on a Sunday morning and live the rest of their lives in peace and safety. Let you know what I mean. But there's this weird thing that our brain does that I have to like be aware of. So I don't become a wistful for a reality that doesn't exist. Yeah,
Neil Shyminsky 43:13
that's the the fantasy world example. It's funny. I love the horror genre. I love horror movies. I love being scared half to death. I also have acknowledged many times that you know, if I were truly a character in horror movie, like I am the first person who is dying. I am the guy who's like, Whoa, there's, there's a spooky looking cave over there. Let's go check it out. And then I never come back. And I think actually that the way you've described it is the nearest that we can get to like to a prescription here it is to be thoughtful with whatever it is that we're consuming and to be self reflective, but to also open dialogue with other people. So when you like something and you're not sure what part of your brain what itch, is it scratching and that's when I like to reach out to other people send videos to my friends on tick tock and say like, have you seen this? I don't know what it is that either I love about it, or what is it that is rubbing me the wrong way because I can't put my finger on it. You know, it's like when people share videos where they talk about ridges, that and I'm like, Oh, this one really works for me. But this one like I am freaked out. And do you have it? Are you having a similar reaction? Like what's the difference because superficially look really similar. So it's to have that conversation into not just sort of as tempting as it can sometimes be like mindlessly scroll it, even at the risk of you know that because it's always a risk. You could ruin it for yourself, right?
KC 44:47
It's a balance like we don't want to mindlessly scroll. And this is like a gentle curiosity. We're not trying to be to where like we have this very perfectionistic I can never enjoy this because there it's not Oh I'm 100% ethical, you don't I mean, like that kind of like perfectionism, that kind of perfectionism that will just like make you freeze.
Neil Shyminsky 45:06
And you know, ideally, when you go through this critical process frequently enough, you can still sometimes enjoy the things that you recognize are problematic. As long as you you know, you know why it is that you enjoy. I really like watching videos of people performing like extreme sports and horribly hurting themselves. I watched one with somebody on a scooter who was like riding rail, and then he faced planted into a stone barrier, and like, it looked awful, and I could not help but laugh, and maybe not something that I should be admitting publicly. But maybe there will be somebody who's like, oh, okay, well, maybe we can talk about,
KC 45:46
I mean, listen, I would never let my kids play football, but I still like to watch it. I think that's also a good example of like, I don't have I mean, there are some things that I've been like, I will not consume this because it is problematic, but like, everything is problematic to an extent. And so I don't have like a perfectionist. I mean, I've gotten so good at the like, especially when it comes to media, about like hero journeys, because there's always a part of me that's like, I want to go on a hero's journey. But I've gotten almost too good at it now. Because like when I watch things like Lord of the Rings, all I can think about is how cold Frodo is the entire time. I don't like to be cold or uncomfortable in any way. And so my husband is always like, you could never go on our hero's journey. And in every book that I every fantasy book I read, there's always a scene where they come to like a body of water and they go bathe themselves, and they'd take their clothes off, and they get wet. And then they get out and put their dry clothes back on. And all I can think about is how I would be miserable having to put My wet body back into dry clothes. Anyways, that's neither here nor there. But I feel like similar like, I want you to I mean, check with reality that I am consuming art, that art is more than art. And that it does not mean that I would enjoy that experience. And it maybe means that I don't want to be in support of art that might lead people to embrace an experience that would harm them. Sure. Yes,
Neil Shyminsky 47:07
I think that's a wonderful note to end on right there. Awesome.
KC 47:12
Well, Professor Neil, tell people where they can find you if they want to hear some more of your excellent commentary on the world. Thank
Neil Shyminsky 47:19
you. You can find me on Tik Tok, Instagram, Facebook. Unfortunately, I had to spell Professor Neil a little differently on each one with underscores dots. But I think if you look for Professor Neil and EI L, you'll find me pretty easily, Jules. Awesome.
KC 47:35
Well, thank you so much for your time, and this has been a great conversation. Thanks for having me
Transcribed by https://otter.ai