02: Q&A: Too much self compassion?

Welcome to another episode of Struggle Care! In our first episode, you heard my conversation with Dr. Lesley Cook about executive functioning. Because she has so much great information and wisdom to share, I decided to bring her back to discuss self-compassion. Is it a bad thing to have TOO MUCH self-compassion? Join us for the conversation with Dr. Lesley!

Dr. Lesley Cook is a psychologist who does a lot of work with ADHD and other neurodivergencies. Born and raised in Hawaii, she now lives in Virginia and works with children, adolescents, adults, couples, and families. 

Show Highlights:

• How to find the balance between the message of self-compassion and the need for better life management and progress

• A basic understanding of self-compassion from Dr. Kristin Neff’s writings

• A closer look at shame and how we experience it in relation to self-compassion

• How to gently shift shame into self-compassion

• How self-compassion can become a learned behavior that we pass down to our children

Resources: 

Connect with Dr. Lesley: TikTok and Instagram

Connect with KC: TikTok and Instagram

Get KC's Book, How to Keep House While Drowning

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:10

  Hello, you sentient balls of startups. This is struggle care, the podcast that will eventually get a tagline. It doesn't have one now. But you're you're, you're good here. We're happy you're here. Anyways, I'm KC Davis. And welcome back. I've got Dr. Leslie cook with me, psychologist extraordinaire. And we've just been rolling through some Q and A's that I get into my inbox into my comment section. And most of y'all know that I'm a therapist. And so we're just putting our little psychology heads together. And I have a couple of questions here. Leslie, thank you for coming back. First of all,

  Lesley PsyD 0:47

  yeah, thanks for having me.

  KC Davis 0:48

  Okay, so I want to roll through a few questions here about like ADHD and kids, because I know you have a lot of experience with that. I want to start with this one. Well, this one's not about kids, but it's just in general. Okay. It says, Do eight, does being on ADHD meds actually help with everyday life, like running a household? Or is it more useful for academic type focusing?

  Lesley PsyD 1:08

  That's a fantastic question. I don't know that I've ever been asked that question in that way. So the answer is a general Yes, with a lot of caveats. So ADHD medications are in different classes, usually, people are talking about stimulant medication. So we'll talk about that, at least at first. One very oversimplified way to think about stimulant meds is that they help to wake up the parts of the brain that function like a brake pedal. So without those medications, sometimes ADHD feels like having a wonky brake, where sometimes it works. And sometimes it doesn't. But it really doesn't work when you need it to work. And that does not end well. So stimulant meds have wake up the part of the brain that lets us break or not break when we want to. So in general, yes, it will help you. If you're a good candidate for that, that medication, it will help you focus what more when you want to, and it will help you have less, usually less anxiety about what you're going to choose to attend to. So instead of having to do that manually, and think about things, you may find it easier to say, it makes sense for me to do this first and this second.

  KC Davis 2:23

  That's a good answer. I can really only answer from my personal experience, because I actually got on stimulant medication. When I was a stay at home mom. So like, I wasn't going to a job, or work or school or anything like that. And I can say that, for me, the main thing that it did for me what will two parts one was like task initiation. And like, energy, like I wouldn't say motivation necessarily, because like you and I have talked before, like, motivation is about like understanding the value of something like wanting to do something. This was more like, it was almost like now I'm excited that I'm gonna get this thing done. And I'm able to do it. And the difference for me was very much like, before I was on meds, I'd be sitting on my chair. And I'd be like, I need to get up and do the dishes. And I'd be like, I need to I need to, but it felt like the transition from sitting in the chair to like getting up to the dishes was like walking through mud. And it also felt like I couldn't like forecast with enough tangible illness. What the reward of getting the dishes done would feel like, does that make sense? I was like I could know cognitively like yes, I'll probably feel better. But it wasn't real to me, compared to how stuck and inert I felt sitting in the chair.

  Lesley PsyD 3:56

  Yeah. And I gave you a little bit of the clinical answer first and then you give this lovely real world experience. So I'll tell you that as a person that takes stimulant meds, the more fun answer is I can do the dishes when I take my medicine without feeling I don't know another way to describe it besides like mental agony. Yeah, without medication, every task in doing the dishes is its own task. And it's so difficult to just make my brain stay because it doesn't I guess it doesn't just believe that this is going to be finished. And my medication helps me just do it. It helps me be in my body and do the task and not have all of the things with it. So for me it quiets my mind more than anything else.

  KC Davis 4:42

  I also this image of like if you've ever tried to pull like a sled over concrete, like I'm from Dallas, Texas, and we never get any snow but every time we would get like an eighth of snow I would like demand my dad took me out on the sled and so like even though the the snow Like the ground is white, you would just all you could hear was just like or have been like pulling this metal sled over concrete. And that's what it feels like to like get myself up and moving towards like a thing I need to do. Whereas when I take for me, I take Vyvanse, when I take a stimulant Med, it's, it's like I'm suddenly on. I'm a cart on greased, like rails. And it just slides like the transition from getting up to getting to the it just slides. And I'm able this is like a weird part for me. But I'm able to forecast, like, viscerally the reward that I'm going to feel once it's done. And that feels motivating. Does that make sense? Like that makes me want to get up. So it's not just I need to get up, I've got to get it's like, I want to get this done. And I can make myself stand up and go do it. And that's kind of my experience. And what's interesting also is that when I first got on, I was told like the old line of like, you need to take your tolerance breaks. So it'd be good to take it like try not to take it on the weekends. Which is like, I first of all, I love my psychiatrist, and I don't think my psychiatrist is misogynistic at all. However, I think that old line that just gets passed down about taking breaks on the weekends is like such a patriarchal, stupid piece of advice. Because you know, who gets to rest, you know, who doesn't need to be productive on weekends? Men? If anything, I needed more on the weekends. Yeah, absolutely. Like, that's when especially now like I actually am working nine to five, but like, the weekends is where I have my kids all day, it's where I need to make a 9000 Snacks is where I need to reset the whole house and get the laundry done and, like, pack us up to go do something fun. Like that's it? So the answer to that question is yes, yes. Okay. And that's also by the way, why it makes me so mad when I hear people say that they tried to talk to their psychiatrist about meds? And the answer was, well, you're not in school, so you don't need them. That makes me furious. Okay, number two, how can an ADHD parent adjust to all the routines and requirements of having kids in school?

  Lesley PsyD 7:21

  Rule number one is self compassion. When when we're trying to make movement, as an ADHD person, we're gonna take as a given the premise that days will be different, that there isn't one goal we're trying to get to where we've mastered ADHD and life is always going to be good part of this diagnosis is understanding that things are going to be harder and easier, depending on the day.

  KC Davis 7:48

  You mean, I can't just aim for the perfect morning routine. And that will fix all my problems.

  Lesley PsyD 7:52

  No, or the or the best planner or the best token system for your kids. So it's an unsatisfying answer, I think for some, but it's very, very true, that part of really moving from one phase of life into another with this diagnosis, is also bringing with us the understanding that it's going to be easier and harder. I think the other thing to think about when you're transitioning to parenthood is what is already working for you and bring that into your parenting. So if it works for you to be slightly disorganized during the day, and then on the weekends reorganize. Don't try to become a Pinterest mom, tomorrow when you have a baby. Stay with what works. Invite yourself to be curious about how you can apply what's already happening and going okay, in your parenting.

  KC Davis 8:44

  Yeah, I also I'm thinking like I was talking to some moms last night, and they were talking about feeling overwhelmed by the amount of things that need to be like signed and filled out. And we were talking about the suggestion and their kids are a little bit older, the suggestion of like, putting a folder on the wall somewhere, and then being like, it's you're like, Okay, kiddos, it's your responsibility to like, put your papers into this. And then every day at seven, you know, I'll go through and sign it. But I'm also thinking like, because I just went through this, I just put both of my kiddos into school. And it's like the amount of paperwork and small tasks about like, download this form and then fax it to the doctor and then text the doctor and then we'll send it back and then download it as a PDF and then upload it to the school site, which you have to use the QR code in order to get in and then set your password and then verify your email. It's like it's such a nightmare of like many tasks, like am I and I tasks. That's really hard.

  Lesley PsyD 9:43

  It's so hard. So another tip I would give people is don't be afraid to utilize your support people. If you've got folks in your life that you trust a best friend, a mother, a father and uncle a spouse who is very good at some parts of this it is okay to offload parts of it, if you're not so good with the tech, try to negotiate with your support people and don't do the tech, it's okay. You don't have to do everything. Your other point was lovely. And we also we have like a Dropbox area. So when papers come in, they're not beautifully sorted in a color coded thing on the wall, they go into one box. This is the to do box, the stuff that needs to get done. And next to it, we have a whiteboard. And so anytime someone says, Hey, Mom, by the way, I run to that whiteboard. I have a meeting on Friday after school that goes on the whiteboard, and then you're done. So really trying to make things visual and simple. Don't overthink it. Try not

  KC Davis 10:38

  to I put a lot of things on my calendar. I also love the website monday.com. Love Monday. It's like a task management one. But it's really intuitive. And what I find is that I don't do well with like different informations coming out, right. So it's like, okay, sometimes I'm getting emails from teachers, sometimes it's a notification on this app, sometimes it's a folder I'm supposed to check in or whatever. And what I find is that, as I'm going through, especially my emails, like when I'm getting school related to dues, like having that little app, that Monday app where it's like any school related to dues that I get during the day, I'm putting on that like list. And then maybe like after the kids go to bed, I can like sit down for like, if I have some uninterrupted time, it's it's easier for me to get through all the many tasks versus like trying to work and be like, oh, there's this email, or, Oh, I've got to get this form. So that might be helpful. Okay, let me let me get you another one here. Who, so I love this. So this one is about my book, How to keep house while drowning. And it says how do I teach my kids the principles in your book, I don't want them to connect worth with cleanliness. And I love this question. And I've talked a little bit about it on my channels before. But I you know, it's sort of like the great experiment that I've been doing with my kids. And I know you have kids that are older. So I just thought this would be fun to discuss shortly for a short time, which is like trying to teach I mean, here's my theory, here's my like, if I get my kids to age 18, and they have never cleaned successfully, like the way I would like them to, but they have a morally neutral relationship to care tasks. And I have taught them the skills about how to do things. That success. It's annoying, it's stressful. But it's success, because they might be 25 or 38. Right. I was like 32. When I woke up one day and went, I'd like to put systems into my house so that things are more functional. I know my mom would love that I had wished I'd done that at 16. But conversely, and I'm not saying it has to be just one way or the other. But also like, there are a lot of parenting techniques that I could use to like force behavioral compliance for my kids in areas of like tidiness and chores. But what I don't want to do is get my kid to the edge of age of 18, always having like a spic and span clean room. And then like immediately when they're out of my house, they're like, finally, I don't have to do that shit anymore. And then they don't actually have like, the relationship to care tasks where they understand like, these are functional tasks to care for myself. And then like, that's the most important skill to me. So I try to teach that to my little kids. And I have all sorts of like weird ways of doing that. But I'm just curious what your thoughts are?

  Lesley PsyD 13:44

  Well, two parts. The first is when it comes to parenting and these kind of like value building a value system, which I think is what you're talking about, mostly. That primarily comes for most kids from observation of what is being modeled. So the great news for all of you who are listening who are parents, especially of young kids is you don't have to be perfect. You just have to be you don't have to be we invite you to be kind to yourself. And here's the big part I see results with with my older kids is your language. Talk to yourself during these tasks, right. So look at your dishes and say, Well, if I do all of the plates and cups, and just rinse the other things that will be enough for tomorrow and that's okay. You don't even have to be telling your children but that helps you hear it. It helps you utilize these principles and the children will internalize these voices over time. And I can zoom you ahead because I have a 20 year old who's going into her second year of college and she is just as messy as I currently am and was at that time, but she is capable of solving crises. She is capable of asking for help when she is not doing as well. She is capable of making friendships and choosing those friendships based on whether those folks are going to echo her values. And when she has to, she can clean up really, really good. She's got the skills in there. So I would echo that, that your goal isn't to put a child out there who has a better housekeeping home, your your goal is to put a child out there that has all of the skills and abilities to exist in the world and be kind to themselves.

  KC Davis 15:31

  And one of the things that I do with my kids, and most of my kids are two and four. So if you're at that stage, you know, things that I've been trying is, I don't Institute things for my kids, or like limits or structure that seem arbitrary. So we don't have like a you have to clean up every night before you go to bed. Because that's not connected to anything in my kids brains. So what I've been doing is, now I might say you need to take all the toys back to the playroom, because mom can't function in the kitchen, if there's Paw Patrol on the floor. But I don't have a leg now everybody has to clean up their, you know, put everything back. But what I have been doing is I'll wait until I can tell that my four and a half year old is in a spot where functionally something's not working, and she recognizes it. So this will be she trips over a toy. She steps on a Lego, she can't find something she's looking for. She wants to have a dance party, but the space is too cluttered. And all y'all like jump on that moment and be like, Oh, no, you tripped. I'm so sorry. That happened. What can we do to make the space a little more functional? So we don't trip? She's like, let's clean up, right? And I'm not saying it's like some magical dust that my kids like excited to clean up. But like you said, like, my goal isn't to like make her because she then she'll say I don't want to. And it's like, alright, well, fine, keep tripping, I guess. And I will like, I never want to put out this idea that I've like just like I'm magic. Like, I will absolutely get to the point where I'm like, I'm canceling your playdate. If you don't pick the freaking Paw Patrol up, right, like I get to that point. However, I'm also like, like you said, like helping her make those connections of like, functionality of her space, directly impacting her like, right now experience. And I also clean up with my kids all the time. I think we really overestimate like, I think we both overestimate and underestimate, like what kids are capable of. Like, I still do tasks with my kid, like, I can get my four and a half year old to maybe go feed the cats by herself. But everything else she wants to do with mom. She wants to do the exact same task. So it's not. She does not help me pick things up, right? I'm always helping her. It's always me helping her. That's always what cracks me up. When people see my messy house. They're like, why don't you just teach your kids to pick up? Like I do it? What world do you live in that teaching small children? How to do care tasks? Is like less of a burden. Yeah, no, it's more work. Right? So anyways, that's what I've been doing. It's just like pointing those things out verbally. And I think that's helping. Yeah,

  Lesley PsyD 18:15

  I also love like the idea of building small things or routines into the normal rhythm of the day. That makes sense. So it's not when you get home from school, make sure you do your five chores before you go out and play. It's when you get home from school, I understand that you're going to be tired. So do what you want to do. But after dinner, if everyone could just hang around for about five minutes and pick one of we have a list that says how can I help today. And it's just got a list of random stuff. Nothing's assigned. But it's like right, pick one thing. And and when you have enough people in there functioning, even if they're little guys, if what they did is bring the cups from the table to the counter, you're building a value system, they're around help. It's also building experiences with your parents, I think we underestimate how important it is to just be around our kids for these little moments and not seeing an hour of face to face Barbie play. I'm saying five minutes of putting music on while you unload the dishwasher. These things are very impactful for a very long time.

  KC Davis 19:17

  And I also think like, I have this story that I told one time about, like my kid, she took I think she was three she took all the diapers out of her diaper box. And I was like, You need to put all of those diapers back. She was like, No, we can't. No, no, not gonna not kind of can't. And I was like, Oh, yes, you can. She was like, No, I can't. I was like, you can't your arms are broken. And we had this like, you know, like, very classic argument about it. And then she finally because I have done a few things right. She like kind of broke down and then got really vulnerable and was like, but there's so many I can't pick them all up at once. And I was like, Oh, she's not unwilling. She's overwhelmed. Yeah, absolutely. Like, it doesn't make sense to a three year old brain like When you say pick all of those up, her three year old brain hurt, literally put them all in your hands at once. So I had to break it down to like pick one up and she picked one up now pick three up, I'll be four. Now pick two what like cuz she's learning her numbers, right? teaching her like the five things tidying like, okay, we're all gonna get, we're all going to reset the space. And she's like mixtures in that phase. Everything's cool with mom. And I'm like, let's find all the trash and we put a song on and look for all the trash. Let's find all the laundry, put us on that look all the laundry. And it's not only like you said, like that moment we're having together. But I'm also like, it. I think when we talk about like teaching our kids, we default to like teaching them discipline and responsibility when it's like the bigger skill is like, how do I break down a big task intuitively into like, smaller steps that don't feel like I want to like, you know, yeah, drive off the

  Lesley PsyD 20:55

  front door. Yeah, we bathrooms are a really good example for my kids. So growing up, I used to have the written list of the steps, which is still helpful for some kids. And some kids will actually write it in whiteboard marker on the mirror. I don't know if people know you can do that. And it just wipes right off. Now what I have them do even the older kids, even the 16 year old, I'll say do the bathroom and they say great what first and I'll be like Mears that's the blue bottle, right? Yep. And then they'll come back. Okay, toilet, that's this thing, okay, and then they'll come back. So there's support there, they don't have to hold all that information and working memory like you we have music on. It's a cooperative tasks are not alone, right. That's another piece of this too, is that children, even adolescents aren't just little grown folks, they get more easily overwhelmed. So for you and I cleaning a bathroom might be just one or two tasks. But them knowing that you're right here with them, can help break down that anxiety, which can lead to that escape avoidance behavior that parents tend to really parents I'm pointing at myself, tend to get frustrated with because we're tired.

  KC Davis 22:02

  And then can you walk us through you had a really great video one time on your tic toc channel about helping your son clean his room, and you had like a really unique approach to it. Can you tell us about that?

  Lesley PsyD 22:16

  Yeah, so we have a couple of approaches, and I let him pick the approach every time but the one he usually picks is that we take everything that's on the floor, and we throw it out into the hallway indiscriminately. And then whatever's left in the room, we just set it up really quick. So it looks nice. Now that's very easy, because most of the stuff is on the floor. They're not on surfaces. So the room with all the junk in the hallway, the room looks great, it looks finished. So he already within 10 minutes feels accomplished. Then we put again, we put music on not everybody or sometimes a YouTube video. And basically we sit together and we bring items back in that we want in the room. And we put them where they go. So I'll be like airplane. Yes, I want that. Okay, cool. Where was where would airplane live? Oh airplane could live here. And then we'd put it there. A lot of times as he's getting older, we don't need this as much. But I also would limit that. So we would do 10 minutes. And then yes, there would still be a pile in the hallway. And sometimes that pile would be there the next day. But pretty much because there's not a lot of anxiety about it, it was more of a fun task, we would move through it pretty quick.

  KC Davis 23:21

  I love that I also love like, what I was talking in a different episode about how when I need to do a task, I often like overestimate how much time it's gonna take. And I know cognitively that it's gonna feel good when it's done. But I can't like really viscerally. See it in my mind's eye enough to be like, Mm, it's worth it. And I feel like getting the room to that like space where it looks really nice. Everything's super functional. It's like immediate gratification of like, oh, yeah, I do like this. I do like this. Because there's nothing more overwhelming and defeating to me than trying to clean up a room or tidy up a room where I'm just like picking up one item at a time. And trying to put it away somewhere. And like my brain doesn't see any progress.

  Lesley PsyD 24:12

  Yeah, and I think doing it in this way. And so for for adults, this is kind of the bulldozing method that I've used before where I take everything on the floor and put it into one corner. It's more of a treasure hunt than your room is already clean, like I clean my room. And now I get to hunt through this pile of stuff for things that I want. So instead of this deficit model of I'm trying to climb this hill, it's Oh, I love this shirt. I forgot I had this shirt. I'm gonna put this shirt away. I think it's just really about rewriting the story of what taking care of your space is about. It's not about resetting it so it looks pretty. It's about liking the things that you have, and being able to locate them frankly and use them when you want to.

  KC Davis 24:55

  I love that. Okay, here's what I'm going to end with and it's not a question it just is Just a comment, which made me laugh not at this person, but just laugh because it was, frankly funny. So, if you don't know, I did a tech talk video where I said, Hey, like, what questions do you all want me to answer? This one says, my mental health is a dumpster fire.

  Lesley PsyD 25:18

  There's no question. We all just nod slowly in agreement, like,

  KC Davis 25:28

  yes, I've been there. Not to you. Yeah. Welcome. I love it. Okay, we've got about four more minutes before I'm going to allow you to leave. I'm going to take this whole time. We don't have enough time to answer this in full. But this is my tricky way of trying to get you to come back and answer more questions with me. Okay, where's it? Where's it? Where's it? Just because, okay, it says, Before the pandemic i have i Okay, let's start, let me start off. Before the pandemic, I had a whole life before 6am workout read journal emails, I quote unquote, earned my sunrise. And now I cannot get out of bed before 7am.

  Lesley PsyD 26:21

  Interesting. I feel the same way. But my brain doesn't frame it as I can't get out of bed before 7am. I think my brain frames that that my values have been realigned. The pandemic was a scary time for a lot of us. Even if we felt like we weren't physically at risk. It was dysregulated and disruptive. And it changed who we are and what we think about our time. And so I guess I would invite people to consider the fact that maybe that shift is in your favor. Maybe that's okay. And that even if you do return to doing things at 6am, I'm kind of pulling back that way. Now, it's by choice. It's not because we're needing to earn it, it's because we've decided that we want to do it that way, because we like it better.

  KC Davis 27:11

  That's what really stood out to me. And I would bet you money that that phrase, earn your sunrise is from some motivational, Tony Robbins esque speaker out there, which we could get into a whole episode about how I feel about those sorts of gurus. Because you're right, you do not have to earn your sunrise, you don't have to earn your sunsets, you don't have to earn any of that. And doing those things before sunrise is great if that is great for you. But I have always detested how sort of commercial self help has put this huge emphasis on like the moral superiority of waking up early. Like there's so many self help books out there that like when you really get down to like their quote unquote, advice. It's like wake up early. Like, I don't want to, I'm not going to, I have my entire life and continue to roll out of bed at the last second. And that doesn't make me like less productive than other people. It doesn't mean it's not about willpower. Like I quite literally just have a different brain and body. And there's no difference between doing something at five and doing something at 10pm. Unless there is a functional difference for you and you're enjoying it, enjoying it that way. Like I just really want to invite everyone who has been either trying to make themselves like an early morning earlier or sunrise person that like you can just stop. It's okay if you like it if it works for you keep doing it. But I just want the rest of us to stop feeling this like weird subtle shame about the fact that we don't wake up early and I don't want to.

  Lesley PsyD 28:56

  I am in agreement. 100%

  KC Davis 29:00

  So, well, once again, thank you for being here. Do you want to plug yourself real quick where people can find more of your excellent tidbits?

  Lesley PsyD 29:07

  Sure. I'm on Tik Tok at LesleyPsyD. And I'm on Instagram, although less frequently at Leslie Le s le y underscore PsyD, and I'd love to see you stop by

  KC Davis 29:20

  awesome and you guys know where to find me at domestic blisters on Tik Tok at struggle care on Instagram. And you can also check out my website struggle care.com

  Lesley PsyD 29:29

  Thank you