03: Eco-Shame with Rebecca Gray

You have probably heard me say, “You can’t save the rainforest if you are depressed.” The truth is that eco-shame and eco-perfectionism can get in the way of our taking steps toward better functioning. If you have ever felt guilty for not being “eco-friendly enough,” this episode is for you! 

Rebecca Gray is an environmental epidemiologist. With her master’s degree in public health, she studies disease, the patterns of disease, and health at population levels within communities and countries. She also studies how factors in the environment impact health by causing and promoting disease. Rebecca works with government agencies like the EPA and CDC to develop water guidelines to keep pollutants out of the water supply. 

Show Highlights:

• How Rebecca has experienced forms of eco-shame in her profession

• How some people push the environmental movement in ways that are able-ist

• The trap we fall into to “embody the archetype” of the space we occupy

• How social media plays into the eco-perfectionism pressure we feel

• Why functionality matters more than the morality of what we do in care tasks, eating, the environment, etc.

• Rebecca’s view of today’s environmental movement

• Why we should ask ourselves how an eco-behavior affects our health and well being

• What really does need to happen to prevent climate change

• How our capitalistic society colors what we can do to be eco-friendly

• How differing narratives make us feel pressured to make individual changes and collective changes to “save the world”

• How to identify what we need to function well, fill in gaps with eco-friendly behaviors, and learn how to conserve our energy

• How to take a more reasonable–and less stressful–view of sustainability swaps

• Actions that have the least impact and the most impact on environmentalism

• Rebecca’s advice about letting ourselves off the hook for the decisions we make

Resources:

Connect with Rebecca: LinkedIn 

Connect with KC: TikTok and Instagram

Get KC's Book, How to Keep House While Drowning

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:00

  Okay. Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. I'm KC Davis. And this is struggle care, the mental health podcast that does not expect you to save the rainforest when you're depressed. Today, I'm talking to Rebecca Gray, who's an environmental epidemiologist, and we're going to talk about eco perfectionism and eco shame. So if you've ever felt guilty for not being eco friendly enough, this one is for you. Hello, and thank you for joining me today. One of the things that I've talked about a lot in my channels, and I talked about in my book is my principle, you can't save the rainforest if you're depressed. And it's basically talking about how eco shame and eco perfectionism really can get in the way of us taking steps towards better functioning. And I wanted to do a couple of episodes on this. And the guests that I have today is Rebecca gray. She's an environmental epidemiologist, and I'm gonna let her introduce herself. Rebecca, tell us your sort of background and what you do for a living?

  Rebecca Gray 1:01

  Yeah, great. Thank you so much for having me, I'm really excited to be here. So first of all, I have my master's degree in public health, which means that I look at disease and health at a population level. So if medicine were the individual, I look at communities, countries, etc. And I'm an environmental epidemiologist. So I feel like the word epidemiology has gotten a lot of press during the pandemic. But essentially, it is the study of patterns of disease in human populations. And the environmental part comes in because I study how things in the environment impact our health either promote it or cause disease. So that could be chemical pollutants and our air or our drinking water. Or it could be more physical characteristics of our environment, like temperature, or extreme weather events, etc. So obviously, climate change overlaps with that quite a bit. That is like kind of the overall gist of environmental epidemiology. In my job, specifically, I work with government agencies. So I've worked with the Centers for Disease Control, and the environmental protection agency to help develop water guidelines for different pollutants in our water to keep the community safe from getting sick from bad things in our water.

  KC Davis 2:13

  Awesome. So you and I connected when I actually made a tick tock that said, I want to talk to someone who is an environmentalist that can talk about, you know, eco shame, eco perfection. And you know, you and I connected and you reached out. And what I really was drawn to is that you not only had professional experience, and environmentalism and knowledge, but you also have quite a bit of personal experience and sort of what I've been calling environmental perfectionism. Can you share a little bit about that?

  Rebecca Gray 2:42

  Yeah, absolutely. So I would say, as a college student, and then a graduate student who was training to be not only an environmental scientist, but also an environmental scientist focused on human health, I felt an immense amount of pressure to be kind of a poster child for both eco conservation and a picture of human health. Obviously, both of those things are unattainable. But in terms of, you know, from standpoint of eco perfectionism, it was things like feeling really compulsive and obsessive about reducing my carbon footprint, not using single use plastic, not creating food waste. And obviously, I was never able to have not been able to achieve any of those things perfectly, which caused a lot of like, very crippling anxiety and guilt. And that really fed into again, a lot of this pressure I felt to be perfectly healthy person. So I really struggled with an eating disorder called orthorexia, which is unhealthy fixation on kind of eating the quote unquote, right foods or a fear of eating the quote unquote, wrong foods and contamination. And I really, you know, for several years, the level to which my anxiety about being an imposter, as both an environmentalist and a health scientist was debilitating and did interfere with my ability to do my job and live my life productively.

  KC Davis 4:05

  So yeah, it was so interesting is, you know, the study of how the environment affects our health. And there's also this sort of, like, you're kind of in the upside down where it's like, this is an example of environment affecting housing health. Yeah. But it's like all of the good things about being an environmentalist, it's trying to achieve a good thing to perfection ends up having this really negative impact.

  Rebecca Gray 4:32

  Absolutely. And, you know, I say that, as a person who has a lot of privileges that actually make it I think, very easy for me to fit into the environmental movement. I am a white person, I am a thin person, I'm an able bodied person, a middle class person. So all of those things give me access to these spaces and having, you know, more marginalized identities on top of that, I think, I imagine would make it even more difficult. So yeah, I don't know the idea of like a poster. child or a perfect embodiment of these values definitely has weighed on me in my life and is

  KC Davis 5:07

  I recently had Imani Barbara and on and she's a disability activist. And we talked about the intersection between disability and environmentalism. And she was sharing with me about how much of the environmental movement is ableist. Or at least the ways in which people are pushing environmentalism can be ablest can be anti black. And it was a fascinating conversation. Because when I think about, you know, what you're describing is like the poster child for environmentalism, I do always picture like a thin white woman who is like drinking out of a ball mason jar, right. And like, who is, you know, biking to her job that allows that is somehow close enough to bike to, but as paying her enough that she can buy things that are more expensive, because they're more sustainable. And it's truly it's such a nuanced intersection. And so I think it's really interesting to talk to you and hear you say, you know, I kind of am someone with these privileges that fit into that mold. And even for you, it was damaging.

  Rebecca Gray 6:18

  Yeah, absolutely. And I think something that I love about your content, and the work that you do is separating morality and functionality. And I think such a contributor for me personally, and for a lot of people is the feeling that embodying this archetype is moral, but archetypes of people don't have morality attached to them. And, you know, while individual behaviors can absolutely be productive, and moral and contributing, engaging in everything all the time looking and being a certain way, all of the time is not a good measure of our worth, or our contribution as people because we are always going to fall short of that.

  KC Davis 7:00

  Let me tell you, when you said the words, embodying the archetype, I got chills, like I got goosebumps. And I almost feel a little choked up. Because I feel as though you've put into words, something that I've experienced my whole life, I've occupied several different spaces. You know, I occupied the recovery space when I was in recovery from drug addiction, sort of the 12 step space, the absolute space space, I've occupied, you know, the evangelical space at a time in my life, I have occupied the mental health space. And I really resonate with what you're saying, even when I was in my addiction. For me, when I was having this root fear of not being enough of not being worthy of love, what I always sort of tried to do to fix that was to look for whatever space I was occupying, be it culture, institution, subculture, I was always striving to be the perfect embodiment of the archetype. So when I was using it was, how do I be cooler? How do I get better drugs? How do I be perceived as, you know a badass how to why and I was striving for that, and I felt I could not reach it. And then I get sober. And I learned so many things. And there were so many really great ways that I became healthier. But that route of feeling unworthy of love, just at some point shifted its focus to now I need to embody the archetype of recovery woman. And that imposter syndrome that you're talking about remained right, I move into the church and I find myself I want to stand in the front and I want to be a missionary, and I want to be on staff and I want to be an recognizing and actually did become a missionary and then had sort of a crisis of faith fall apart during it. And it was around this idea where I realized, so much of what I've been striving for isn't actually fueled by my real beliefs. It's fueled by this promise, this intangible promise that if I can embody the archetype of this space, I will finally be good enough, I will finally get love. I will finally like myself and others will like me too. I just have never really been able to put that into words before so I thank you. That's, I think, like a gift that's gonna stick with me forever. And it applies here, too, right? When we start to occupy spaces that we actually might really believe in with causes that we really do care about, but we can kind of get hijacked by that primal human need to be loved and to be worthy and to belong.

  Rebecca Gray 9:39

  Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I mean, you're gonna thank me for putting into the word into where it's like, I'm gonna thank you for putting into words care tasks are functional, not moral. I mean, I think that so much of like my growth and learning and recovery from an eating disorder and an anxiety disorder came from honest sleeves social media seeing people who had done this and had spent time thinking about it put feelings that I had into words that helped me understand them. That happened to me, you know, when I was getting recovering from orthorexia. I hadn't found like the term intuitive eating yet, but I was like starting to think it I remember telling friends, like, it's just easier if I don't like think too much about what I'm eating. And then like a year later, I'm on Instagram and like, kids eating color is like, it's it's called intuitive eating, and things like that, which I think, I don't know, social media is like such a great tool. I love social media.

  KC Davis 10:37

  Me too. I always laugh if you've ever seen like, sometimes every once in a while, it happens a lot. Some artists will draw like these kind of metaphorical representations of like the evils of technology, and it'll be like two people in a room, but they're looking at their phones. Yeah. And I'm always like, where's the artists who's gonna draw like the woman suffering from postpartum depression? Who's like Lifeline is coming through that social media? Yeah,

  Rebecca Gray 11:03

  I'm like, people want to knock Instagram infographics, as if I haven't learned like, most of my like activism from Instagram and Tiktok,

  KC Davis 11:13

  I have I have learned most of my activism from tick tock, and tick tock in particular, has put me in touch with creators that I would never have come across. Like I just I live in a very white space, I live in a very abled space. And sometimes, you know, the value of not just being surrounded by that, but at the same time, purposefully, trying to be friend, a person of color, because they're a person of color is also like, not, not it, not it right. And so there is this sort of how do I diversify my mind? How do I decolonize my views and social media has been the way that's happened by following these creators that I never would have been able to cross paths with in real life. And so I totally get you there. And, you know, it's interesting, because that aspect of social media has been so helpful. And I'm sure that social media has also been part of the issue with eco perfectionism. You know, because we do see people post only their best moments.

  Rebecca Gray 12:15

  Absolutely. And I think, you know, I would say, like four years ago, I don't know about anybody else. But my Instagram was filled with, again, the archetype of a zero waste girl, a slow fashion girl, like mainly white women, mainly thin women with expensive, sustainable clothing, with plastic free bathrooms with I don't know, who had time to like bake bread twice a week, and like, filming Instagram video of it. And I was like, in grad school, and technically, my income was below the poverty line. And I'm like, Well, I guess I'm doing it wrong,

  KC Davis 12:51

  even when I like so I have an online shop, I sell a lot of digital downloads, but I also sell some physical products. And as I'm moving into this space, where I want to start selling like workbooks and planners and things like that, there is the option of like, sustainable packaging, and all these sorts of things. And as I look into it, it's like, it's more expensive. And I know that the majority of my demographic like, probably can't afford so I'm always trying to look for how can I make this the most accessible resource or the most accessible product, while still keeping the business running? And you have to choose between the two sometimes, right? And I think one of the other things that you said that really hit me was when you were talking about intuitive eating. So I actually read the bucket diet by Caroline donor a few years ago, and I've been, you know, my philosophies and struggle care have been supremely influenced by the intuitive eating anti diet movement, where we're taking the morality out of food. And so, you know, taking the morality out of care tasks, was something that I started talking about, especially with people who are struggling with mental health, chronic illness. And one of the ways when I stopped thinking it was this moral obligation, I realized that there also weren't any rules. And then I could kind of get creative about how can I make these rhythms and rituals of care tasking work for me, and for me, as a person that was, you know, I was at home, I had some postpartum depression, I had ADHD, I was finding these what I call adaptive routines, like, okay, my dishes are going days and days and days, and I'm getting bugs because I can't and then I'm overwhelmed. But if I put my dishes in the dishwasher at seven o'clock every night and I run the dishwasher, that's more manageable. And then I found that if I do it a half a load, like if I don't wait until the dishwasher is full, I'm less overwhelmed. I'm less paralyzed. I don't. And so when I started talking to people about these adaptive routines, I would get comments and they were usually pretty cruel about I guess you don't care about the environment. If you're going to wastewater like that. I talked one time about how, you know all calories are good calories when you're grieving. And, you know, I had a radical vegan comment about how you know, we were killing other mothers just to save human mothers. And there's this like visceral cruelty with environmentalism that is really pretty horrifying and toxic. Yeah. And so I'm curious to hear as an environmentalist, you know, what kinds of things do you think that the environmental movement, as it stands today? What things are we doing well, that are actually helping? And what ways is some of the avenues we're taking the environmental movement not being helpful? Or maybe even being oppressive?

  Rebecca Gray 15:39

  Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think like your example of the dishwasher is such a good one, because it's like, okay, it helps you be a lot more functional and taking care of yourself and your family. And it used twice as much water. So like, obviously, there's a cost environmentally there. But I think an exercise that I have tried to work on doing over the past few years that I would really encourage other people to do is when thinking about like an eco behavior or sustainability behavior, asking yourself and being really honest with yourself, can I engage in this behavior and honor my health and well being? And that answer is going to be different depending on the person and the behavior. So something that you bring up that I really like is, I think it's like 1000, unseen privileges and barriers. So like, for example, for years, I was a vegetarian, because I was like, Well, I have an understanding that vegetarianism is good for the environment, and it's good for my health. Actually, turns out being a vegetarian and restricting my food is not good for my health, because I'm a person with a history of Ed, for other people, vegetarianism is a great way to engage in an eco behavior and reduce their carbon footprint, and it works really well for their health. That wasn't true for me, it was not a behavior that I could engage in healthfully, like on the flip side of that, I really like to walk places when I can, instead of driving, that reduces my carbon footprint, I have a lot of privileges that make that accessible to me, you know, I'm able bodied, I have the relative luxury of time, I live in a really walkable community, and I enjoy doing it. So that fits into my life, it might not for somebody else with different privileges and barriers. And, you know, sometimes it's even more clear cut than that there are people with chronic health conditions or injuries who need single use plastic to stay alive. Not that it has to be a question of, you know, yes or no survival, but a question of, I think your functionality and your happiness, and the only person you can really have that conversation with is yourself. So like in on the topic of which behaviors are really good and work and which don't, I think it is so nuanced, and so personal. And I also genuinely think that, you know, humans are pretty inclined to be moral and contributing. And when the answer is yes, this behavior does fit into my life, people are pretty inclined to engage with it, of their own freewill. I mean, most of us do use washable reusable dishes instead of single use ones unless circumstances make it challenging to do that. So I think the pressure on the individual to perform perfectly is a real negative of the environmental movement. And I don't know, like the idea that each of us individually is responsible for changing the outcome of climate change, or the trajectory of the world by remembering our reusable bags every day is a pretty unrealistic myth.

  KC Davis 18:34

  Yeah, one of the things that I have found interesting is this hyper focus on the individual, like, you know, it's up to all of us to not use straws to save the world. And, you know, this is not my area of expertise. But what I'm learning is that there's a lot of misplaced impetus on who is really capable of saving or damming the world. And, you know, I don't want to move into a space where we think oh, because, you know, since what I do doesn't matter, who cares, but there's got to be some sort of nuance that we can wrap our heads around, like, what really does need to happen to prevent climate change?

  Rebecca Gray 19:15

  Great question. Yeah. Well, I think what you're getting at too is in America, we live under capitalism, capitalism places, the onus on the individual for their success. And capitalism has placed a lot of the onus on us, the individuals to stop climate change, and a lot of that time that involves us buying things to be or look sustainable, or investing our time and energy which are limited.

  KC Davis 19:40

  So I just have to say that again, what you just said, you said, you know, we live under a capitalistic society. That's just a neutral statement. It's just a truth. And a lot of the environmentalism that we are taught or given is based around us purchasing something because that's what keeps capitalism going or Having the time and energy to engage in behaviors or activism, time and energy that is typically only available to people in upper classes in a capitalistic society?

  Rebecca Gray 20:12

  Absolutely. I mean, having the time to walk somewhere to wash and reuse something, too, like buy food in bulk, and prepare meals at home time is a limited commodity, especially where we are in society right now.

  KC Davis 20:29

  Well, on top of that, this idea that production is morally superior to rest, where we feel like, you know, if you say, Well, it's a luxury to have the time to do this. I think there's a lot of people that think, well, I, I technically have the time, you know, if I didn't have hobbies, or rest, or look at tick tock. And there, we feel like there's this moral imperative to produce, produce, produce, produce produce. And so we feel like resting, relaxing, recreating our indulgences, they're disposables. And that if we're doing something like that, you know, unless we're replacing every minute of our day, with something productive, we still have time. And so if we're not using that time to do A, B, and C, we feel guilty.

  Rebecca Gray 21:14

  Yes. And, I mean, I think that's true from an environmentalism lens. From what I'm not a parent, but I understand that to be true about parenting, about our academic lives, our work lives, our relationships, we are constantly being pressured to produce and churn something out and move forward. But in terms of I mean, who is collectively responsible for fixing climate change, there are like 100 corporations in the world that are responsible for like 70% of climate emissions. I mean, who is responsible for climate change? It is like enormous corporations, it is the US Department of Defense, it is huge entities that are, for the most part out of our individual control. And I don't say that to be nihilistic. Because another kind of myth that I think we've been sold about climate change is that it's something that is going to happen, that's going to be catastrophic event, like at some point where we're going to go over a cliff, and suddenly life will change. But the reality of climate change is that climate change is already damaging people's health, it already takes lives every year, it is the result of it are already some people's reality, and have been people's reality. And if you are in a position to not be directly feeling it, it's probably because you are living in a place of relative privilege. And so it's not really helpful to think about it as like this doomsday kind of thing that we all have to band together before a certain point, or we're all going to get blown off the face of the earth. You can think of it as small actions in your community, smaller initiatives organizing, and kind of, what am I talking about progress over a big sweeping change?

  KC Davis 22:53

  Yeah, so when we talk about these 100, corporations, and so we recognize, okay, this is kind of where the make or break, change will happen. And I feel like there's kind of two ways in which that could change. One narrative that we're given is, if we all band together, and stop the demand of these plastics, waterways, blah, blah, blah, right? Like we all band together and stop buying water bottles, then these companies will have to change. That's one narrative that I've heard. And then the other narrative is, if we all band together, and place collective political pressure on our government, to regulate, you know, industries that are within our country's control, that is the way to go. And so I'm just curious, from your perspective, which of those narratives is more accurate? Which of those narratives should we be focusing on? Which one's more realistic?

  Rebecca Gray 23:50

  I think that they both have their place. And in terms of the first question, which kind of a boycott economy, right, let's keep our money, realizing that that is not always realistic, again, due to personal finances, what people need to live like plastic water bottles have their place, other forms of single use plastic have their place, political action, I do think is important and effective. And something that I learned working as a contractor for the EPA and the CDC, for the past four years, you know, I worked for those agencies under the Trump administration. And what was interesting is there were a lot of really good scientists and activists at those organizations doing their best to chug along and perform good science and get things done. And so I think that continuous political pressure is worthwhile. Especially, you know, we tend to think of things at the national level, what's the presidential administration doing? What is our Congress doing, but at the state and local levels as well, organizing and pressuring politicians does work and does have an impact and voting for people to put in office? Who will protect and promote programs and social services that align with your values does have an impact. And as important,

  KC Davis 25:09

  I think what the majority of people that I talked to that are really struggling when you know, they're looking at, okay, when I don't buy prepackaged food, I tend to not eat that day. Or when I, you know, my dishes pile up in the sink, my anxiety goes nuts, and I don't have the capacity to engage right now at this time without kind of like selling my mental health soul, so to speak, right? And so when these people are asking themselves, you know, what can I do? And I like how you sort of painted this picture of start with, you know, what do you need to function, and then fill in the gaps with more compatible, eco friendly behaviors that work in your life. And I also want to encourage people, you know, I think that especially when it comes to mental health disability, sometimes because we're struggling with perfectionism, we can't, by ourselves, determine what do we really need, because we're always thinking what we really need is just us being lazy, right? And so I think talking to a therapist, or a counselor, or even just a friend that you trust, allowing someone to have some input on to know, Casey, just buy some paper plates, like you need to eat, right, like letting someone else that you trust, have a voice in that conversation, because I think that we tend to have just the right amount of self loathing to say, Oh, if you, you don't really need that you're just being lazy. And a lot of times, that's not true. And so getting someone else to help you with that conversation on what adaptive routines Do I really need to live and thrive in my life? And once you sort of realize that, how can I then fill in the gaps with some eco friendly behaviors? In that moment, when we talk about how can I fill in the gaps with eco friendly behaviors? I feel as though we are sort of drawn to the boycott economy narrative as like, that's where we should go first, like, okay, how can I have less plastic? How can I do this? And those things are all good behaviors. But if it's true that the more impactful behavior might be getting involved politically to make those changes, then would you say that it's valid for a person to say if I have this limited capacity leftover, the best use of that capacity is not getting, you know, obsessive, or worrying about how much plastics in my house, but is using that energy instead? To see what's going on with my city council or something like that?

  Rebecca Gray 27:39

  Yes, I think energy is, again, it's such a limited resource. And you know, things like voting, think voting is very important. Voting takes like a lot of energy. In some states, you can't register on the same day, you might have to find time off of work, you know, find childcare, this takes a lot of energy. And like if voting and being involved politically aligned with your values, then conserving energy in order to engage with that, instead of, I don't know, cooking all week to make sure that you don't have any food waste at the end of it has value, especially I think, in terms of conserving energy, something that I find useful is to remember to conserve energy when I have it. So like, oh, it's like a Saturday afternoon, I've had my little iced coffee, I'm feeling really good. And I'm thinking to myself, Okay, it's time to clean the house top to bottom or get ahead on any other tasks, thinking to myself, What would two hours of lazing around, like do for me right now, it might do a lot, and it might give me a little bit more Go Go juice for the rest of the day or the week or whatever.

  KC Davis 28:48

  I love that. And I mean, I'm even thinking about, you know, you can even get smaller than, you know, city level. I mean, there are parents who might be able to participate in a PTA, where they can bring up, you know, is there a way we could send home digital announcements instead of paper announcements, right, where, you know, it might be that using paper plates for dinner gives you the capacity to attend a PTA meeting, where you can push for what's going to be a much bigger impact of, you know, a school, even just one school, reducing their paper usage or something like that.

  Rebecca Gray 29:26

  Absolutely. And I also think that specifically in terms of, I think, a lot of sustainability swaps center on food, like what should we be buying? What bags should we be using? How should we be cooking? What plates should we be using? And I just want to like, let everybody buddy know, give them some peace of mind from an epidemiologist. The biggest way that food impacts yours and your family's health is the importance of getting enough of it and getting enough variety. And so if eating off paper plates if ordering in if buying Less expensive produce that wasn't produced sustainably allows you to feed yourself and your family in a way that satisfying and you know, bonus if you get to meet all your nutritional needs, like that has inherent value, it's going to make our bodies more resilient to any kind of environmental stressors. This is especially important, you know, communities that are experiencing the most intense effects of climate change, are tend to be communities that are poor, that are of color that already faced food insecurity and nutritional deficiencies. And, you know, our very basic human needs of food and you know, shelter, etc. Those usurp our need to engage in environmentalism.

  KC Davis 30:41

  So when we were emailing back and forth, I was asking you sort of like, what do you view as sort of the most the actions that have the most impact and perhaps the Eco actions that have the least impact? And one of the things you said that was surprising to me, as you said, using the social programs that are available to you is one of the most impactful things you can do in terms of environmental behaviors. Can you talk about that for a minute?

  Rebecca Gray 31:03

  Yeah, sure. So when I say using social programs that are available to you, I mean, things like Medicaid, if you have any food related benefits, so snap, or chip, or WIC, these are programs that the government puts money into to make sure that your basic human needs are met, they are imperfect, and a lot of the time, they are not successful at meeting everybody's basic needs. But the government uses the amount of money spent on those programs year to year to budget for them. So essentially, if you qualify for those programs, and you use them, not only is it hopefully going to benefit yourself and your family, it's going to tell the government, okay, this community needs this investment, it's using this investment. And that's really important, especially because, again, the communities most impacted by pollution and climate change, tend to be communities that have a lot of people in them who qualify for those programs. So, you know, for example, a low income community might live near a highway, they might have higher rates of air pollution, adequate nutrition in that community is going to help make their bodies more resilient to examine environmental stressors. And making use of those programs is going to tell the government that these things that meet basic human needs need to be prioritized.

  KC Davis 32:22

  So are you saying that when we use social programs that we social sort of safety programs that we qualify for like this, that we're not just saying, Oh, this is affecting my family, but that in doing that, we're actually communicating back to the government, which communities need the most assistance, even in other areas.

  Rebecca Gray 32:42

  Sometimes, the government definitely has research initiatives, where we look at the kinds of communities and the socio economic characteristics of people who require and use services, but even more, so it will help the government to understand the needs of your personal community.

  KC Davis 33:01

  Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. And then you talked about limiting air travel.

  Rebecca Gray 33:07

  Yeah. So this is, I'm not here to tell anybody that they can't get on a plane. First of all, there are lots of good and valid reasons for air travel, you know, maybe your loved ones are far away, or I don't know, I like vacation as much as the next person. But if you are truly feeling overwhelmed, and having shame around your carbon footprint, I just am here to let you know that all of the little actions day to day that you may engage in are really barely making a dent against the amount of carbon that is emitted from taking a single flight. So if you can find opportunity, if you're really looking for environmental behaviors, to engage in finding opportunities to forego air travel, is, it's a lot of bang for your buck.

  KC Davis 33:52

  I love that. So it's not something to necessarily beat yourself up over if you're taking airplanes. But it's a lot of bang for your buck in terms of I'm having a really hard time functioning this year. And if I could just replace one vacation that we would travel on an airplane with a road trip to a closer location, then maybe that gives somebody sort of the sigh of relief of I'm doing my part. And now I can just kind of focus on getting kind of surviving the rest of the year. Yeah, absolutely.

  Rebecca Gray 34:23

  It's really just, again, give yourself that peace of mind if you are experiencing intense shame or intense guilt, because I don't know, you talk a lot in your content about how those feelings don't actually lead us to functionality or productivity. So any tool in the toolbox to combat guilt and shame. I'm a fan of

  KC Davis 34:45

  Yeah. And then in terms of the behaviors that have the least amount of impact, you talk about, you know how some conservation behaviors are just naturally rewarding. But, you know, your approach to environmentalism is really Human health focus. And so I love that you talk about giving people permission to prioritize their own health and happiness. You talk about that, too. I mean, we've kind of been talking about that the whole time. But

  Rebecca Gray 35:10

  yeah, absolutely. I think in terms of behaviors that have the least impact, again, like I mentioned, any time that you are feeling that little Goblin and your brand, say, I need to go out and buy this thing. In order to be more sustainable, I need to buy this jar, I need to buy this water bottle, etc. Just take a breath, and ask yourself, Do I already own something that could fulfill that purpose, like plastic takeout containers, I mean, like things in your house, they don't have to look photogenic, it does not have to look like a zero waste Instagram page in order to be sustainable. So I would say like, you know, rushing out or to like buy sustainable fashion pieces, which I have been guilty of in the past, like, it's okay to just wear your fast fashion pieces that you own, and you love they're already made. You're not creating waste by doing that. And I think, again, in terms of honoring your own health and well being while engaging in environmentalism, when you think about a behavior just clocking, am I feeling excited about this? Does it feel doable and accessible to me? Or is it giving me a really bad feeling in my gut of like, I already know that I'm not going to be able to sustain this commitment. And I'm already experiencing shame about it, I would invite everybody to just take a deep breath and ask themselves, why am I feeling this? antagonizing shame? It's probably related to barriers in your life, either due to circumstance or your health or your identities and releasing yourself. Easier said than done. Right. Okay.

  KC Davis 36:44

  The other thing that you said was was so great, you said if the government is allowed to consider practically when setting environmental health regulations, then you're allowed to do the same when thinking about your own behavior. So the government is asking themselves questions like, can I afford this? Can we do this program and still be able to do the other programs we need? And so your point is kind of like, you know, you as a person get those same sort of Li ways?

  Rebecca Gray 37:12

  Yeah, absolutely. Again, I work on setting drinking water guidelines for the EPA. And on every project, every drinking water guideline, we have a dedicated team of economists saying, what is it going to take to enforce this? Can we reasonably ask people to do this? Can we follow through? Again? Do we have the money? Those are questions that you are allowed to ask yourself? And the answer is allowed to be? No,

  KC Davis 37:36

  it's okay, if you do not embody the archetype of eco warrior.

  Rebecca Gray 37:41

  That is okay. I don't know that any of us ever do. So.

  KC Davis 37:46

  Awesome. Well, I love everything that you've said, I think this picture of seeing sort of eco friendly behaviors as a buffet, where, you know, you can pick and choose ones that are complementary to your life that match your capacity at the time. And even if there's a period of time where somebody is truly focusing on surviving, you know, your period of survival is not going to make or break us

  Rebecca Gray 38:16

  know, also, in service of that, when you're going through your period of survival. There are other people out there that are remembering their reusable bags and not using the paper plates. And, you know, maybe your circumstances change at some point, and you're able to engage with those behaviors. Maybe they don't, that's also fine.

  KC Davis 38:33

  And for me, I feel like that motive would work even better to me where it's like, okay, if I have the opportunity to, like, do the extra thing, being like, you know what, I'm going to do the extra thing today, you know, so that someone out there can eat that pre packaged salad. That's what they need.

  Rebecca Gray 38:49

  Yeah, exactly. And I like, I don't know, something that I've noticed in your closing duties videos you're like, and the last thing I do for closing duties to set myself up for success is I brew cold brew, because I want that in the morning. But then sometimes you're like, actually, I was surviving. And I decided I'm gonna get Starbucks tomorrow. Yeah. And then living in peace with that decision. Getting Starbucks on Friday allows you to, again, maybe then you have the energy to make your coffee at home the rest of the week.

  KC Davis 39:16

  Awesome. Well, Rebecca, thank you so much for spending the time with us. And is there anything that you want to say in closing?

  Rebecca Gray 39:24

  Oh, gosh, I would love for everybody to just let themselves a little bit more off the hook, then. I think we are inclined to do just take a deep breath. It's okay. I feel like as an environmental scientist, sometimes it feels like taboo to say like, it's okay. But it is and taking care of yourself is okay and allowed.

  KC Davis 39:47

  We have better things to do today then hate ourselves over a bag of clothes. We can't manage to get to the donation bin.

  Rebecca Gray 39:53

  We absolutely do. So many better things.

  KC Davis 39:56

  Awesome. Well, thank you Rebecca, so much