06: Is Too Much Self-Compassion a Bad Thing? with Dr. Lesley Cook
In our first episode, you heard my conversation with Dr. Lesley Cook about executive functioning. Because she has so much great information and wisdom to share, I decided to bring her back to discuss self-compassion. Is it a bad thing to have TOO MUCH self-compassion? Join us for the conversation with Dr. Lesley!
Dr. Lesley Cook is a psychologist who does a lot of work with ADHD and other neurodivergencies. Born and raised in Hawaii, she now lives in Virginia and works with children, adolescents, adults, couples, and families.
Show Highlights:
How to find the balance between the message of self-compassion and the need for better life management and progress
A basic understanding of self-compassion from Dr. Kristin Neff’s writings
A closer look at shame and how we experience it in relation to self-compassion
How to gently shift shame into self-compassion
How self-compassion can become a learned behavior that we pass down to our children
Resources:
Connect with Dr. Lesley: TikTok and Instagram
Connect with KC: TikTok and Instagram
Get KC's Book, How to Keep House While Drowning
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KC Davis 0:06
Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to the Struggle Care podcast. I'm your host, KC Davis. And this is the podcast that doesn't care if you wash your face. I'm here with my good friend, Dr. Leslie Cook, say, Hello, Leslie.
Lesley PsyD 0:17
Hey, it's nice to be here. Again,
KC Davis 0:19
if you're tuning in with us, you probably heard Dr. Lesley Cook last week because I had her on to talk about executive functioning. And I invited her back and I had this great idea that we were going to talk about weaponized incompetence. And then as we got closer to the recording, I remembered we already did a recording on weaponized incompetence. And so I'm going to call an audible and pepper Leslie with Q&A that we're going to answer together.
Lesley PsyD 0:45
About that. It sounds great. I cannot wait.
KC Davis 0:47
Excellent. Okay, so I just want to jump right in because I've got some fascinating ones. Here we go. So as you know, much of my, I'm just gonna start with a real spicy one. Is that okay? Yeah, that sounds great. Alright, so as you know, my my content on tick tock is primarily about home care, self care, mental health, and self compassion, right all about sort of recognizing how many things in our life we feel like failures about and then being able to internalize like that struggling with that thing doesn't make me a failure. What often happens when I talk about this, is I get a lot of feedback that says like, Oh, thank you, I feel so much better. Thank you. I'm operating so much better in my home. Thank you. This really helps. But I occasionally will get people that have a similar reaction to this commenter. Okay. And so she actually commented twice. And the first time was when I asked for people who wanted to do q&a, and this is what she said. I think it's great to help people get past feelings of failing for not doing maximum levels of housework. But I hope you also teach that when someone is using the struggle care techniques to survive, they need to also be facing how to get out of crisis, not having more kids or adding to their load, while they forgive themselves for a mess and allowing for doing less, they need to also get real about getting their life to a more manageable place. All right. So here's the second comment, this was on a different video. Your videos have me spiraling this week, because I'm worried some people not you are getting the message to forgive themselves too much, and really not doing enough really failing their kids, I hope you'll keep reinforcing the part about how to do what needs to be done, versus doing too much or nothing. And this comment, first of all, thank you to this commenter for commenting this because I can tell that she's having a legitimate sort of emotional reaction. She's not trying to be any type of way, right? And I just, it's been rattling around in my brain. And I've been having trouble finding the words for what it brings up or what I'm seeing in it. So I'm just curious, your thoughts off the top of your head?
Lesley PsyD 2:59
I think in both of those comments, I do I do a lot of parenting work. And I almost feel like I hear a version of some of these early parenting messages that perhaps people receive when they're younger. And when we are under stress, a lot of those early messages tend to just come out all of a sudden. So when I hear that I almost hear, you know, it's okay to take a break on your homework today. But don't forget, you can't get too far behind. So you need to keep going to reach this optimal level. So part of me wonders if that's an old message. And the other part of me wonders, when we work with very young children, especially during their developmental period. We always meet them where they are, right. So if a child is learning to walk, our first statement isn't, you know, it's okay that you're crawling. But we got to we got to get to this walking phase, we have this understanding that crawling, you know, rolling leads to creeping leads to crawling leads to walking. But as adults, I think sometimes we forget that, that it's okay to meet ourselves with compassion, where we are today, even if where we are today is non functional. That doesn't stop our progress. In fact, it's an incredibly important starting point, and it can be freeing to do that.
KC Davis 4:14
I hear a lot of fear in this comment. And my initial reaction when I saw this comment was that this person is perhaps either a child who was not cared for in the way that they deserve by their parents. Or is perhaps someone that knows someone who is not giving an adequate or functional amount of care to their children, right? Like I really didn't read this as someone who's like, I really want permission to be judgmental, because sometimes that's what people mean, right? They feel like it's okay to extend compassion or teach people self compassion up to a point. But they have this like line in their head where it's like But if you're doing X, you are you should not be using self compassion on yourself. You should be feeling shame, which I think just goes back to this idea that ultimately, as much as we say that shame is not a good motivator long term that that shame isn't the best change agent that we have. And in fact, it most often backfires, and stalls out change. That I think underlying belief is really hard to root out. And I feel like this is where it comes to the surface is like, okay, it's okay for us to be self compassionate about not getting our dishes done. But what about that mom who just left their kid in a dirty diaper for 12 hours, and now they have, you know, open sores on their bottom? Like, they're not allowed to be self compassionate, right? And so we get into this place of well, what do we mean by self compassion? What do we think self compassion does? And that's kind of where my brain goes with it.
Lesley PsyD 5:59
Yeah, I think I think what I'm hearing in what you're saying too, is there's some belief that's tied up with fear, if I have compassion for myself, I'm afraid that I could become that person, if I let myself versus I think one of the messages from from your content across all platforms is giving yourself Self Compassion, radically, unequivocally where you are, is less likely to lead you there that it's more likely to free you to imagine where you could be next.
KC Davis 6:32
So let's just take a minute and actually talk about like a definition of self compassion, because probably there's people listening that are going well, I don't even know what that is. Okay. So I'm gonna read you a definition of self compassion. This is from Dr. Kristin Neff. She's sort of the pioneer of self compassion research. Let me see Here she talks about the three elements of self compassion. So number one is self kindness, versus self judgment. It says self compassion entails being warm and understanding towards ourselves when we suffer, fail feel inadequate, rather than ignoring our pain or flagellating ourselves with self criticism. Self compassionate people recognize that being imperfect, failing and experiencing life difficulties is inevitable, so they tend to be gentle with themselves when confronted with painful experiences. Rather than getting angry when life falls short of set ideals. People cannot always be or get exactly what they want. When this reality is denied our fought against suffering increases in the form of stress, frustration and self criticism. When this reality is accepted with sympathy and self kindness, greater emotional equanimity is experienced. Number two, common humanity versus isolation. So first stration at not having things exactly what we want is often accompanied by an irrational but pervasive sense of isolation. As if I were the only person suffering or making mistakes all humans suffer. The very definition of Being human means that one is mortal, vulnerable and imperfect. Therefore, self compassion involves recognizing that suffering and personal inadequacy is part of the shared human experience. It doesn't just happen to me alone. And then number three, mindfulness versus over identification. Self Compassion also requires taking a balanced approach to our negative emotions, so that feelings are neither suppressed nor exaggerated. This equilibrium stance stems from process of relating personal experiences to those who are also suffering and thus putting ourselves in a larger perspective. It also stems from the willingness to observe our negative thoughts and emotions with openness and clarity, so that they are held in mindful awareness. Mindfulness is a non judgmental, receptive mind state in which one observes thoughts and feelings as they are without trying to suppress or deny them, we cannot ignore our pain and feel compassion for it at the same time. At the same time, mindfulness requires that we not be over identified. So self compassion, I think part of what I'm sort of hearing in this is that I think some people misconstrue that self compassion means permission for the behavior you're experiencing.
Lesley PsyD 9:07
Mm hmm. And when you think about permission, that's an attachment to something, not this kind of observational lens that we're talking about. So if it's, there's cups all over my house that have old coffee in them, and I'm allowed to do that, and I give myself permission, and I don't care what impact that has on me or anybody else. That's a that's an anxious attachment to that as a way to not have to feel as a way to get away from my feelings, or standing back. And being an observer that is not attached to that. I can come from a place of compassion, which is like, wow, this is really a challenge for me. Here's the story of how this impacts me and other people. And there's no attachment there's no end to that story. I'm free. So I love that. That detached observer
KC Davis 9:56
Well, and I'm just curious, like the actual definition of compassion. Let's look it up. Okay. Yeah. Let's see, let's see. All right, sympathetic pity. I don't love the word pity. But let's go with it. And concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others, who I love that sympathetic concern for the sufferings of others. So what, what we're talking about when we say self compassion is a sympathetic, and I would say, sympathetic by nature is gentle, right? A gentle concern for the suffering of ourselves. Right. And I also just think about compassion in general, like this idea that compassion has to be permission or that it will give permission if we're too compassionate. But like, I have felt compassion for people and permission at the same time, right? Like I've looked at moms who are struggling, or young men who are struggling, really anyone and been like, they're giving themselves too hard of a time, they actually should be giving themselves permission to rest, right. But I think sometimes we don't recognize that we're doing two things at once I'm having compassion for their struggle. And I'm feeling sort of permissive or wanting to give them the the, quote, unquote, permission to rest or do whatever or let go of the dishes in the sink. Right. But I don't know about you, but like I can, I have had compassion for people that I was not giving permission to. I've listened to actually just heard one recently. And I don't know how accurate the facts of the story is. But I'm just reacting to as if the facts of the story were what I heard. It was this woman who was talking in a court case, and I'm going to do it just trigger warning, because I'm going to talk about some child abuse, but I'm not going to be graphic. She was describing to the judge in graphic details, how she had abused one of her children, and horrible ways. And she's crying as she says it. And at first, you're just like, horrified. And then you learn that what's happening is that this child was doing the same things or abusing her younger baby, like in really horrific, sadistic ways. And this mom is sort of like, crumbling in the courtroom saying, like, I was trying to say, you know, you don't like it when someone does this to you, and then doing it to him. This child eventually died from the abuse. Now, no part of that do I feel is acceptable, permissive. Okay. And yet, I found myself listening to this mom, who was clearly in pain, who was like thinking about her infant being harmed and tortured continuously, and was kind of at her wit's end and was clearly not equipped, mentally, not support it, like, I felt compassion.
Lesley PsyD 12:52
I think that that's an area that we really struggle with, at least in our culture at this time, is the duality of many things that you can be this and that at the same time. And in fact, that's important to be able to separate our compassion, and whether we are signing on to something or saying, oh, yeah, we throw our hands up, that's fine. I do find it a lot of folks are really struggle with that with others, but especially with themselves.
KC Davis 13:19
Well, and I mean, I also felt compassion for that child that had passed away. Right? Like that should not have happened to him. He deserved better, right? And you have compassion for this tiny little infant, right? Who has no one to protect them except the person that's protecting him in a way that's like not functional at all? Yeah. So those are kind of the things that it brings to mind. And specifically, going back, like, let's talk about, I saw a video recently of a person who kind of was saying, Gosh, I'm my neighbor's kids, like, keep hanging out outside on the stairwell. They're like two and three, and nobody's watching them. And she goes out with our video camera and sees and one of the little boys has a diaper that's kind of almost falling off covered with equal matter. And you're just thinking What mother could do this. And I think that's where people's minds go when they go. We can't give that mother permission to be self compassionate.
Lesley PsyD 14:15
Yeah, but I think that one of the points you made earlier, so important that that focusing on permission separates us from other people. It does protect us a little bit from having to contemplate that, well, I could never be I could never do that. I don't give permission. I don't I don't make excuses, because that's a whole other thing that I'll never do. Compassion requires that we see our connection. Compassion requires that we see ourselves in that person and imagine what would have had to have happened to take place in order to end there. And I think that that's hard. If you didn't learn that as a child, or an adolescent, it's hard to be asked to find yourself in someone who is struggling at that level.
KC Davis 14:55
Well, and the idea that compassion and accountability can't Be together. And here's what it also brings to me. There are people out there that for whatever reason, whether it is psychological or moral, there's a and it's probably a small percentage, but like they're just, they're doing outright evil things. And they do not care whether they do not care because they have some sort of psychological, whatever going on that prevents them from tapping into that empathy, or they just don't that exists. And I think what a lot of people worry is that what if, you know, my mother who mistreated me horribly, what if she was listening to Casey Davis and Casey Davis was saying, Oh, let yourself off the hook. Not all moms are perfect, you know, you're doing your best like, then that would have given my mom permission to like, feel right. But in my experience, people who are doing like evil, abusive things to people don't need permission to do them. Not only do they not need permission to do them, like they're going to do them either way. But, you know, they also weren't stopped by shame. They aren't permitted by permission, and they're not stopped by shame. So at some, at some level, like, I don't actually worry that much about some sociopathic person, you know, getting permission, quote, unquote, because like, they're gonna get that permission from themselves from somewhere else, it doesn't matter. I worry more about the person, like the woman that was my client a while back, who relapse on heroin while she was pregnant. And she sat in that group therapy every day, and she could not stop beating herself up, she could not stop being consumed with a feeling of failure and worthlessness. She recognized I have done this horribly harmful thing to my child, she recognized Yes, I have a brain disorder of addiction. And she felt 100% accountable. And I can tell you that sitting in that group over and over and over the majority of the way in which she was not able to show up for her child, the way her child needed at that time, was not related to the fact that she used heroin, when she was pregnant. It was related to the fact that she now hated herself to such a degree. She had basically frozen herself psychologically, with how worthless she felt. And we all know what kind of life choices we make when we feel like we're worthless, right? We get with the wrong people, we self sabotage ourselves at work, you know, we don't put in effort to maybe making progress in therapy, because at some point, that motive of I want to get better. But when you're saddled with I don't deserve to be better, right? And so that, of course, is compromising her sobriety. And putting at risk not only not showing up for her kid the way she needs to, but dying, if she relapses again. And I'll never forget her because we're so afraid that if we were to give this mom permission, to have self compassion on herself, to gently look upon her suffering with concern, and kindness, that would lead to her sort of quote, unquote, letting herself off the hook, not taking accountability, not learning how to change her behaviors. But in my experience, we've really got it flipped flopped. It is that radical self compassion that allows that mom to stand up and start to recognize what her values are, how her behavior in the past hasn't matched to those values, and not be too ashamed to ask for help changing herself so that she can live up to those values in the future.
Lesley PsyD 19:03
Yeah, thank you. No shame is a closed door. It's a period at the end of a sentence. There's nothing that comes after shame. Shame is the reason right? Because I'm bad, because I can't help it because I'm broken. But self compassion leads us to questions like How did it get here? And what would have to happen for this to be different? It's an open door. It's it's multiple open doors, in fact, and if we can learn to view ourselves in that way and each other, I think we start asking the questions that actually do get us moving and are motivating. It's interesting, shame really does feel motivating, even though it isn't. That's an interesting phenomenon. It always has been for me, and so it can be hard to break away from that pattern.
KC Davis 19:47
You know, have this weird theory about shame if I ever told you this. So most of the therapists that I practice with talk about how there's really only seven primary emotions Have you think of like a color wheel, there's like, untold, you know, different hues. But they all kind of come back to one of seven emotions. So there's fear, anger, pain, loneliness, joy, guilt and shame. Now, I actually would replace shame with disgust. Right, like disgust because we feel that ver lots of things. And Disgust is this really interesting beast? Because it's both an emotion and, like a sense. Like, you know, like, touch, smell disgust. And so when we think about, like, what the role of disgust is, when I think about things that disgust me, you think of like, poop, and vomit, and pus and open sores? And like, what's interesting about that? And is that almost exclusively, like, almost a unanimous what I whatever word I'm looking for, it's like all human beings of all cultures experience disgust at these things, almost like it's biological, right? Yeah. And it's smart. Because when I feel disgust, I want to get away from something. And it's really smart for human beings to have this sense of disgust towards things that could get them sick. And I think that some of that overlaps socially, right? Like, what we feel disgust at socially, is typically what society is rejecting or pushing out. And so we don't want to associate with that we don't want to mate with that we don't want to get sort of lumped into the same category. And this is why like, I think when you look at a lot of the phobias, like homophobia, fat phobia, there's a real element of disgust in it. And we want to get out, we want to put that thing as far away from we want to separate ourselves from it, because that's the thing that is going to be pushed out. And we don't want to do that. And I really believe that shame is just disgust at oneself.
Lesley PsyD 21:59
But you can't get away from the thing you're disgusted by,
KC Davis 22:03
Exactly, you cannot get away from yourself. You believe yourself to be something that is, should be put out should be rejected. And yet, the other part of you is fighting for what is on a very basic level life and death, which is inclusion in your pack. And, and so it feels like it feels motivating. Oh, God, I gotta get, I gotta stop this, I gotta get away from this, I gotta fix this, or I'm gonna, it's not motivating. It's just panic, panic feels like motivation. Yeah. But I haven't really seen, I mean, you can get a little movement, right? Like, when I scream at my kids, and I feel shame afterwards, there's that this isn't my values. Like, that's like the gift of shame is it tells me when I'm not behaving in line with my values. But that's it. Like, it's just information, shame can give you information. And if we take that information, and then practice self compassion, we can then do something with that information to actually change. But it can only give you information, it can't give you momentum, it can't create change. And so what we do with that information matters, right? Like we depending on what we believe about ourselves, we can either bury the information, oh, my God, I don't act within my values, I must be a piece of shit, I just screamed at my kid, I can't let anyone know that I do this, I'm gonna go drink to not feel about it, right. And then it gets worse and worse. Or we can go, wow, that's not the kind of parent I want to be. And I'm probably experiencing a universal experience right now. And I'm going to reach out for help. And I'm going to get support. And I'm going to figure out what's going wrong so that I can be different.
Lesley PsyD 23:49
And that's the small shifts, I think that compassion allows us to have. And maybe that's another piece of this is I think it may be difficult for folks to imagine going from a place of shame based behavior, to a place of self compassion. I mean, those seem like poles. But in actuality, self compassion just enables you to make 1000 Tiny shifts, and they don't always have to be in one direction. So I still experience I do this for a living. I talk to amazing people like you, I still experience shame. I'm looking at a side of a room right now that does not bring me joy. But when you practice of compassion enough, that shift becomes very quick and what you what happens starts to happen is I noticed the shame. And I gently shift towards self compassion. It becomes just a learned behavior that you can then pass down to children.
KC Davis 24:39
I love it. Thank you so much. This was so wonderful. Thank you for having me. Of course.