07: Teaser: When Creators Collide

I’m offering up an appetizer–because today’s show is a teaser for an upcoming two-part episode. Disagreements, conflicts, and drama are part of normal life, but there CAN be mutual respect and understanding at the same time. 

I’m talking with Kate Leggett, a student in her final semester of graduate school to be a Marriage and Family Therapist. Kate uses her TikTok channel to help restore relationships, and we became aware of each other because of a video exchange on TikTok. Our relationship certainly didn’t begin well, but we are making strides in communicating with respect and understanding around disagreements and conflicts. Come along as we model real-life conflict, relationships, and reconciliation. Join us for a closer look!

Show Highlights:

• How Kate felt the need to fill in the gray area in relationships around boundaries and toxic relationships

• How online interactions can be transactional, personal, and very different with someone with whom you have a prior relationship

• A look at the TikTok videos that started the interaction between Kate and KC–and the thoughts behind the comments

• How people hold conflict in different and vulnerable ways

• How KC and Kate made space for deeper conversations around their conflict

• The difficulties around communication and conflict in the social media space

• An overview of Kate’s podcast, RR The Podcast, which you can find on YouTube and Spotify (Part 1 of Kate and KC’s conversation is up now!)

• Kate’s perspective on the much-used phrase, “You teach people how to treat you.”

• How to listen to the rest of our “respectful drama”

Resources:

Connect with Kate: Website, TikTok, Podcast

Connect with KC: TikTok and Instagram

Get KC's Book, How to Keep House While Drowning

• Transcript

  Unknown Speaker 0:00

  KC Davis 0:04

  Hello you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to Struggle Care. The podcast by me, KC Davis, a therapist and host who kind of hates the term self care. Today I want to talk about what happens when to online content creators and one being a therapist, one being a therapist student, get into a bit of an online clash. And what is it like for us to actually see the people beyond the screen. I'm talking today with Kate leggett, who is a therapy student who runs the account, restoring relationships. She and I had an interesting conversation via Tik Tok, where we really disagreed about something and we kind of came out swinging. And then Kate did something interesting. She reached out to me and asked me if I would talk with her. What follows here is a little teaser about what we sat down and talked about and what it was like for us to sit down as two mental health professionals and unpack the conflict that happened. I hope you enjoy.

  Kate, you and I sort of came across each other via Tik Tok, and really got, like became aware of each other through a video exchange. Yeah, correct. Which is interesting, because first of all, I find online the online space. So interesting. I was actually doing recording recently with a woman named Yolanda, who I've kind of become friends with. But we had done like a live together. We had talked together, we had planned to do a podcast together. And I had done a Tik Tok where I was referencing, like sleep training. And she had commented and said like cry out is trauma. And what's interesting to me is that, like there were a lot of people commenting on it, and how like I get defensive, and I want to push back. And I think and it comes across as a comment on my parenting. But what was interesting to me is that, because I know Yolanda, she said something that tons of other people were saying, and yet I held it differently because she and I have a relationship. Right. Right. Like I didn't immediately hold it as she's talking about me, I held it as this is a strong opinion that belongs to her. Right. Right. It's super interesting to me how different that is, when there's an existing relationship.

  Kate Leggett 2:25

  That's right. And I think that brings up an interesting point how online, you know, relationships, I guess, or interactions are so transactional, and they can feel so personal. But then when you know, someone there's like, it's like a different energy. It's hard to describe, I'm still figuring out how to put it into words.

  But I love that, that that's been we're able to experience..

  KC Davis 2:48

  Yeah, a couple of times, like somebody will say something. And I'll just have more space to hold that. Even if it seems like they're criticizing me, but I know them. And so I have a completely different context. And I thought it was interesting in comparison, because you and I honestly kind of met the opposite way. Like our first interaction was just like a couple of shots across the bow. It was a conflicting opinion. Yeah. And so I wanted to play those TikToks for us. Yeah. So this was the TikTok that I posted first, and so I'm gonna play it so we can hear it.

  Okay. I have a life rule that I judge everyone by and I think you should do. And it's that a person is only as good as how they treat you when they are angry with you. So that was the one that I posted. And pretty quickly, you had a stitch to it. So I'm gonna play your stitch.

  Kate Leggett 3:41

  So this video right here is exemplary of the concept I call cut off culture, it's the same thing as canceled culture, just in the smaller systems of relationships. The problem with it is that it doesn't solve the problem, it reinforces the problem. In the mental health field, there's literally the term cut off, which is cutting somebody off. So you don't have to feel those hard emotions. You see it a lot in families where there's geographical cut off where someone will move across the country to get away from their family. But when they come back, and they're around their family, they're just as reactive as if they never left, y'all. It wasn't 100 years ago that three year olds were cleaning chimneys. Like we're still catching up emotionally with what is healthy and relationships. And I see this in my office all the time. Sometimes cutting someone off isn't the answer that learning how to deal with it is.

  KC Davis 4:33

  Okay, so yeah, let me ask you this. Let me start with this. What like thoughts were going through your head what emotions were going through your body when you viewed my tic toc? Be very honest, because I'm going to be honest too.

  Kate Leggett 4:45

  Okay. All right. Well, the first thing I think that struck me was you used the word judge. And my context is relationships. So it kind of annoyed me. I thought it was a general realization, which is funny, you know, it's ironic we all, you know, I thought it was a generalization. And I thought it was pretty antithetical this. So these are my thoughts that it was pretty antithetical to my own message a lot of the time because I talk so much about women and anger. And it's such an internalized thing that we don't even know, were aware of it. And so part of my whole, like, theory on restoring yourself in a relationship is restoring your anger at the gaslighting at the, you know, in justices that are upon you. So when I saw that, and put it in my own context of my platform, and my audience, it annoyed me, and I didn't think it fit and I guess in, you know, giving myself the benefit of the doubt, I think it deserves some clarification and like expansion into different contexts.

  KC Davis 6:08

  Okay, follow up question. What are you okay, all right now, sitting here and saying it to me?

  Kate Leggett 6:16

  Gee, uh, well, I mean, I think watching it and hearing it is hard. Because now that I've interacted with you a couple of times, and there's we don't have the most developed relationship. But I would say, you know, I'm more fond of you now, because of interacting with you than I, you know, that's normal. I'm nervous. I'm very, I wouldn't say confrontational but comfortable with conflict and disagreement and relationship. And so because that's backwards for us, my heart is pounding a little bit.

  KC Davis 6:52

  Thank you for being honest about that. I think that's a cool thing. Because I feel similarly in that, like, I actually can hold conflict pretty well.

  Kate Leggett 7:01

  Yeah.

  KC Davis 7:02

  Right. Like, I can deal with the beating heart, I can deal with the, like, sort of holding that truth. But it's still not like a walk in the park. Like, right, I have a good friend. Go ahead.

  Kate Leggett 7:13

  I was gonna say I'm like trying to take deep breaths and not make it audible in the microphone.

  Okay, so my therapist supervisor, when I did my supervisory hours, she had this saying that is kind of coming to mind right now where she talked about, like, basically, she talked about differentiation, which, if you're listening, you don't know what that means. Think of differentiation, for love. We're just gonna use some pop psychology terms, because I think that's easiest differentiation would be like the opposite of codependency. Yeah. Right. So like, understanding, you know, that I'm a different person and things like that. And she used to talk about how, like, the most important skill you could have in a relationship was to be able to hold on to yourself in the face of someone else's emotions. Mm hmm. And so I practice that skill. And I feel like that's what really what you're talking about, which is like, Okay, we're gonna talk about something that is not necessarily like congruent between the two of us. Like, there's some disagreement. There's some feelings, there's some.

  KC Davis 8:14

  And there's a lot of vulnerability, because I know, so let me let me tell you kind of what my experience was. So the first time I saw your TikTok, the first thing I felt was anger.

  And yeah, and part of it was, I think, like, that wasn't necessarily the context I was speaking of. So I sort of felt like it was being misrepresented. But honestly, a big part of it was like, because I consider myself an expert, right? I had this moment of like, Who is this person? To like, tell me that I'm wrong about this thing. I'm an expert in and listen, that is super shitty. And I'm not proud that that was something that I thought but it was like that was like the humaneness that came out. Right.

  Kate Leggett 8:59

  I love it. I mean, you're saying it now too. I think that's another layer to this for me is that I remember being like, here we go. Like I'm posting this. She's this expert. Like she's licensed. She has a TEDx. Oh, I don't know if you did that at that point. But you have a million followers and I'm just a student and even I feel like that right now. It's like surreal to even be discussing this with you on your podcast and mine that's coming out to you know, it's just, it's wild. So, I don't know if I would say it's a power dynamic, but it's definitely like, I totally respect your authority on these things. For sure. And you know, again, and I'm really grateful but also very anxious to keep going and even I remember I made a comment on yours, where I said, this is not applicable period. My TikTok was about justifying toxic and abusive behavior when someone is angry because, quote, they treat me so well when things are good and a quote. And I remember writing that and being like, like, obviously I didn't want to be mean, but I did. I definitely wanted to be. I didn't want to be dismissive, but that was like the feeling that I had. Right. I felt Yeah, yes. So well, that. And, you know, you and I are going to spend a lot of time getting into those experiences. So I don't want to do too much like reconciliation. Yeah, right now, that's no fun. Because that's what the next two episodes of our podcasts are about, is us sitting down and talking about how did you feel? And how did I feel? And I think what's so interesting is, and you can tell me what your experience was, because we've actually already recorded those. Yeah, yeah. But I think what was the most interesting for me in that process was how, when we were sitting in front of each other, and we had talked about, like, who we were and where we were coming from, and the things that we cared about, and we were re expressing really the same message, right? Like, I stand by what I meant, and that tick tock, and I know that you stand by what you meant and your response. But what was so interesting to me was how differently we communicated it to each other when there was one, like, in the forefront of our mind was like, a another person with whom we are in relationship with. Right? Did you feel that too? I did. And I think for me, it was just the space, you know, like, the conversation and not so much the exchange? Because, yeah, I mean, because after that comment, too, I doubled down and made another video. And so I just like, my experience recording that episode was, it was so cathartic, I don't know if that was the word. But just so I don't know, it's just so nice, the space to figure it out, and not have to fit it in a however many characters on a comment or in a message, where tone is can be misread. And there are so many factors of like nonverbal communication that are just easy to miss. So even talking now, it's like, this is what it should be, to me is this, like holding the space, but actually having the space, it goes a lot, I think to say about what the social media space is, and what it means. And I think we're still in our infancy of figuring out what it means to relate to other people in a social media space. Because I have had people sort of come out shots blaring to disagree with me. And they did not like me, and they were antagonistic against me, and they were committed to remaining. So then what can happen is that you have that experience, and then you start to like, see every experience like that. Right? You know what I mean? And then once you go in with your one little like, defensive, you know, response, and it's like, no, now I'm committed.

  KC Davis 13:08

  Yeah, I'm committed. Right? So what we did is that we sat down, and we recorded a big long episode, where we talked in depth about this and our thoughts and feelings about it. And what we would have done differently, had we kind of been able to have that conversation first. And I think it was a really, really cool thing to do. And so we are going to now talking to the audience, obviously, you know this, because we already talked about this. But we're going to split that episode into two different podcast episodes. The first episode is going to release on Kate's platform. So do you want to plug kind of the name and when that will release?

  Kate Leggett 13:47

  Yeah, so my account is restoring relationships. And I actually I don't know if you know this, but I changed the name since I saw you. Now it's going to be kind of, you know, as these things happen, my podcast is restoring relationships. And it's basically just conversations between me and other people whose background is in mental health, where the audience is just kind of getting a fly on the wall perspective. And yeah, part one of this episode is out now. Nice. And can they subscribe on all major platforms? Are you on a specific platform? They can subscribe on YouTube and Spotify right now?

  KC Davis 14:28

  Okay, excellent. Okay, part one of our conversation is up on restoring relationships right now. And then next week, so next Monday, tune in and part two of that conversation will be up here at the struggle care podcast, and I'm excited for you guys to hear it. I think it's super. It really is like a fly on the wall perspective of two people talking and just holding on to themselves in the face of this new relationship and I'm excited for you guys to see it. I did want to leave people with a little like nuggetof information or like expertise today. And so I wanted to ask you about a phrase that gets used a lot. And I'm curious your perspective from a restoring relationship perspective. So the phrase is, you teach people how to treat you. Thoughts? Do you like it? Do you not like it?

  Kate Leggett 15:22

  I don't like to hear that. I don't like it. I hate it. Now, I would love to kind of process this with you. I don't know if I have a complete thought on it right now. But my initial thought is, I hate it. Because I feel like it puts the responsibility of other people's behavior on yourself. And my context, my platform is about pushing, taking that off letting people you know, the boundaries. Yeah, I kind of like when I hear it, I think there are some ways in which I think what it's trying to say is true. And there are some ways in which what it's actually saying is totally not true. That's like my initial thought. And I think I would agree with you that like that phrase, I think gets used to blame primarily women, yeah. For being in a relationship where the other person is not treating them with respect, like, somehow it's the woman's fault in that way. It's a very stupid phrase. I totally agree. And I think that the people that hear that phrase and internalize it, whoever it's targeted to our women, and I think what that also reinforces, is, it's kind of like behaviorism, you know, where it's transactional between two people. And it's like, you teach people how to treat you, like you teach a dog, how to respond to reward and reinforcement.

  KC Davis 16:51

  Yeah, it is really dehumanizing. You shouldn't treat your partners or your kids like their dogs, like you don't train them. Yeah, I actually ran with you on that.

  Kate Leggett 17:00

  And you're not someone's teacher, like, you know, perhaps the more important, like, you're not supposed to educate, you know, this. That's so much energy. And I think there's needs to be maybe the sentence itself is incomplete. You teach people how to treat you, and they need to want to learn,

  KC Davis 17:23

  Or maybe it's better to, like, you teach people how you expect to be treated, right? Like I can communicate my expectations to you, I can communicate my limits to you my boundaries about the kinds of things I will and won't, like tolerate in a relationship, but I'm not actually teaching you how to behave.

  Kate Leggett 17:41

  I still think that's an individual individualistic phrase, I think, well, if the context is in relationship, you know, it's not a neighbor down the street. And it's someone you're in a relationship, friendship, romantic co worker, you know, like, where you're in it. I think the missing piece sometimes is you can teach someone all day long, and expect them to change all day long. But if they're not in that process with you kind of consensually, they're not going to and they don't want to learn, and no matter what you do,

  KC Davis 18:17

  Yeah, that's honestly my issue with most like boundary talk is that yeah, when people talk about boundaries, they're usually talking about it from the perspective of like, if I could have the right boundaries, I could make this person change their behavior, as opposed to talking about boundaries as only belonging to me and my sort of internal understanding of where I end and where you begin.

  Kate Leggett 18:40

  I totally agree. i That's why I still hate it. I still hate the phrase.

  KC Davis 18:46

  So let me ask you this. Is there any sense in which that phrase is saying something true? And if so, what? So? Okay, well, I think it's in the word teach, because we think of teach as, like a teacher explaining things in simple terms, and, you know, like, to kindergarteners, where you're using your words, and, you know, but I think maybe expanding the kind of definition of that word would make it more true. Like, you teach people by how you behave by how you treat other people, you know, if how, you know, the look on your face, if they say something mean to you, and you get meaner, you know, as opposed to being sad or angry and looking like that. I think that's a feedback loop. You know, that's another way of communicating.

  Kate Leggett 19:42

  So, I think there's truth in that. But again, yeah.

  KC Davis 19:47

  Did you learn about the vulnerability cycle in school?

  Kate Leggett 19:50

  Maybe

  KC Davis 19:51

  The vulnerability cycle is this really interesting? It's basically talking about feedback loops, where it says every person has this like, let's say there's a curtain and in front of the curtain is the behavior that you see. And behind the curtain are the like emotions and beliefs that I have that you don't see. And so let's say that behind my curtain is like I'm afraid to be abandoned. And so that comes out in my behavior as being really, really clean. And then you see that behavior. But behind your curtain, you have sort of these beliefs or these issues or these traumas of, you know, I can never do anything good enough. And so you interpret my cleanness, as, like, I'm never enough for you, you're always wanting more from me. And the behavior that you enact to do that is that you push away, because you don't want any more criticism, you don't want any more smothering. And then of course, I take that to sort of validate my own behind the scenes thing, if I'm being abandoned. So I'm going to cling harder. And the harder I cling, the more you pull, because you and so it's that same concept of like there are these feedback loops, where we could, I think that to me is, is if there's a kernel of truth in that it's about like our own agency or autonomy. And I think it goes hand in hand with what we were saying, which is that stop trying to control another person's behavior. And let's look at the things we actually can control. Because maybe there are some behaviors or beliefs, or ways you're going about interacting with the world that aren't necessarily there maybe or like setting up situations that are helpful to you, or might be just like, not aligned with the goals that you want for yourself. You don't try to say, Yeah, I do. I like that. And I think there's a freedom in learning what's in your control and what's not. And I think maybe what I'm hearing you say is, instead of making assumptions about the reasons behind someone's behavior, just address the behavior and how it makes you feel that's a boundaried way to deal with that, I think, is that kind of what you're saying. And then I'm using a different response. If I go around, because every time I'm afraid, I get really angry, and then people don't want to be around me, and then I'm going really likes me and it's like, I get to look at some stuff and go, Oh, maybe I'm like doing some behaviors that make people not want to be around me. But I think that that's a wholly different, like, process than this idea. And I love what you said, when you said the issue is the word teach, like, it's not your job to teach someone the value of respect. Dignity.

  Like, I'm not their mom. That's right. Right. Okay, well, I could really talk about this with you forever, but I don't want to drag out too long. So I want to say thank you, first of all, for reaching out and even wanting to connect. And it's been it's been a really cool process. And if you're listening, hop off right now go over to restoring relationships and fire up that first half of our conversation about our TikTok. Is it could we call it drama. I don't know that it love it.

  Kate Leggett 23:02

  I love drama. I mean, I love drama. And I think it's totally counts as drama. It's I mean, in the most...it's srespectful drama, yeah, totally.

  KC Davis 23:14

  With an audience of two, like we were the only two people that were looking at drama, but now we're inviting you all to it. And then tune back in next week when I'm going to drop part two of that conversation. So Kate, thank you very much for coming on.

  Kate Leggett 23:26

  Thank you, KC, This is so fun. I love it. Thank you for the you know, for gracing me with your expertise.

  KC Davis 23:36

  Yes, and thank you for your perspective and for just being like being willing to show up and have a conversation absolutely anytime.