111: How to be a Content Creator without Wrecking Your Mental Health with Franchesca Ramsey
If you joined us for last week’s episode, you know that we promised Part 2 of my conversation with Franchesca Ramsey. She brings an expert perspective on the various aspects of content creation, like authenticity, compassion, handling negative comments, the value of listening, and more. Franchesca Ramsey is an actor, writer, public speaker, and longtime content creator. She wrote and performed in the web series MTV Decoded, where she tackled race, pop culture, and other uncomfortable topics. Other notable accomplishments include writing for The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore and a nomination for an NAACP award for one of the best books of 2018: Well, That Escalated Quickly: Memoirs and Mistakes of an Accidental Activist. Franchesca shares her expertise and insights about guarding your mental health as a content creator. Join us to learn more!
Show Highlights:
The skills we lack in being human, trusting each other, and genuinely calling someone IN
The public vs. private sphere of an online presence
Listening, forgiving, and doing the right thing
Hard-earned perspectives on hot takes and being silent
What’s your WHY for content creation?
Handling critical and negative comments on social media
Being authentic in content creation means sometimes logging off.
KC’s thoughts on her WHY as a content creator
Resources and Links:
Connect with Franchesca Ramsey: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and book
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC Davis 0:05
Hello, you Sentient balls of . Welcome back to struggle. Care. I'm your host. KC Davis, we're going to jump right back in to part two of my amazing conversation with Francesca Ramsey about mental health and being an online content creator out in these public platform streets. If you didn't hear last week's conversation, go listen to that. And if you are just joining us this week, you're going to want to hear that first just as a reminder, Francesca Ramsey is an actor, writer, sought after, public speaker, and the creator, star of the award winning web series MTV decoded. She has been a former writer and correspondent for The Comedy Central show, The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore, and she wrote an amazing book called well that escalated quickly. So without further ado, here is the rest of that conversation. Well, and I think in general, like as a society, as people, like one of the things that we don't we're not taught well as kids, it is how to manage emotional reactivity and that feeling of being in fight or flight, and so, like we, I think, lack those skills in general, but then you push somebody into the place of a content creator, and like all of that is amplified online. And I actually had that same situation last week. I had a mutual mega video, and it was friends only, and she tagged me in it, and she was like, Hey, I just saw this video that you made, and I almost didn't say anything, but like, I think like or form, I think poor form, it kind of hurt my feelings, right? And like, what was so it was genuinely, maybe one of the most touching things that has ever happened to me on Tiktok, because, like, this person and I have followed each other for probably three or four years, and like, they absolutely they could have just scrolled on because, hey, you don't agree all the time, or they could have unfollowed. Literally, it was like this very human moment where I was, like, this person cared enough to tell me, like they actually valued this. You know, it's parasocial, but it was like a mutual parasocial relationship, and they felt comfortable
Franchesca Ramsey 2:06
and they trust you. And I remind people I saw that happen, and I remind people all the time that it's really scary to share that you've been hurt or that you're disappointed or that somebody fucked up. I think people assume like, Oh, you're getting off on this. You're gonna, especially if you respect somebody, it's really scary, because you're like, this could potentially, this could potentially hurt our relationship. Like, is this going to be the end whatever? So if someone does that, it's because they believe that you can handle it. They believe you can do better. They believe that you are worthy of their time and energy. How many times that people piss you off and you just go, Fuck it. I'm never gonna talk to them again. I'm just gonna write them off. Versus you say, like, Hey, can we make time to talk? I'd love to go out to lunch or get on the phone or FaceTime, or can I send you an email? Whatever? I'm setting aside time for this relationship, because I value it, and I want us, my best friend's sister, as a therapist, and she says, rupture and repair. We've had a rupture, and now I want us to repair it, and it's because you believe it's worth it. And, yeah, I've made a few of those friends only videos and commented on a few of them, which I think is how we got to this podcast episode. Yeah, I again, it doesn't always work. Don't get me wrong. It does not always work, but I believe it's worth it. And I just think more people could stand to benefit from calling folks in. And just like sometimes you got to call people out, brands, celebrities, stuff like that that I don't have personal connection to. But I think if you really want to move the needle, you got to call people in sometimes.
KC Davis 3:48
And I do think like when it comes to calling someone in, like when it's someone who has, like, an established relationship with me, there's so much more there than someone ran. Because I do think sometimes someone will make a video, and it'll be a very passionate, quote, unquote call in, and they'll say, like, Well, I'm not calling them out, I'm calling them in. And it's like, I mean, okay, I guess technically, but like, and at the same time, I think there's a difference between, you know, if you've been directly hurt by someone or something, like not saying that everyone needs to, like, tone police themselves. But at the same time, I do think that if we are the person doing the calling in, we have to ask ourselves, like, What is my purpose? Do I want this person to hear me? And am I thinking about the way that I'm talking and the way that I'm addressing them in the hopes that they can hear me, or am I using language or tone that I know is going to make it more difficult for that person to hear me, but I'm gonna enjoy how it feels like I'm the one that's right.
Franchesca Ramsey 4:54
Yeah. I mean, I think assuming that your audience has heard these terms before, but just for. Reference, you know, calling out is when we do something in a public scale, and we're taking a celebrity or a brand to task or person you know in our personal lives, because we've been harmed, versus a call in requires a lot more care. Even though you have been harmed, you are not making this public, you are making it a private or a more delicate conversation, because your hope is to repair the situation so the person can learn from it. And so I think you bring up a really good point about asking yourself, what is the intended goal? Because I do think there's a way to call people in that happens to be public, but I think it's very tricky. And I think a lot of people to your point, use the words I'm calling you in, but they're not really and for me, I think calling in requires like offering a little bit more grace. It doesn't mean that you're saying what you did is okay, and I'm excusing it. You're just allowing a little breathing room to say maybe you didn't mean to do it like and intentions are those things that, like we often try to stay away from when we're trying to take real accountability, but when we're calling someone in, I think you give that little breathing room so that the person hopefully can meet you in the middle, and then you can move forward together.
KC Davis 6:28
And I think the less of a relationship you have with them, the more you need to have some of that graciousness, because I don't know you, and you don't know me, and so like, if I do, it's like, if I do know you, you can actually be a little more pointed and direct with me, because I know you're not here to harm me. I know that the it's like the grace is unstated, and if I don't know someone or have a relationship with them, I actually have to put a little more of that graciousness in there. The best call out I ever yeah, there's more to calling in than being right and being on the same side. I think people think that as long as I align politically with you and I'm right, then anything I say to you being wrong is a call in, and that's more than that. But the best call in I ever got from someone that did not know me was a follower that made a video, and they said, Hey, I see that you feel a little spun out. And I want to tell you, like, with all the respect and the care in the world, just stop. Stop. You feel like you're being attacked. I know that it feels that way. Oh my god. I know it feels that way, but you're just digging yourself deeper. I implore you to just take a beat and step back and remove yourself in this conversation. But it was that like, I mean, it genuinely, like, auto regulated my nervous system. And they were like, you know, you've really kind of stepped in it, but I see you in this space of feeling frantic, and I one time went viral, and I know what that feels like. And it was like, there was this compassion for that without saying that. Like, yeah, yeah, you stepped in. It still, but like, I care you enough. Yes, yeah.
Franchesca Ramsey 8:05
They centered your humanity. They were like, and again, it's that thing that I keep saying is, like, two things can be true, you fucked up, but you're also a human. And my good friend Dylan Marin said this. He has a fantastic podcast called conversations with people who hate me, and he wrote a book about and did TED talk, and one of the things he said is that empathy is not an endorsement, and I think about that all of the time, but we can empathize with someone and not say that what they did was okay. Still hurt people, you still need to face consequences, you still need to repair the harm, and also you are a person and hurt people, hurt people, and people make mistakes, and I've made mistakes too, and I needed to learn from that mistake, and I've gone viral, and I've been called out. I've done those things, and I can see the humanity in you, and that's why I'm taking the step to call you in. And I think most people aren't prepared for how much work calling someone in is. It's like emotionally draining, and you don't get the public cookies for it, and that's where I think people default to doing things publicly. And they say it's a call in, but it's like, No, you. I mean, you just want people to hear it, which is fine, that's okay. But if it was done offline, it would be a lot more work, and you really don't get anything out of it. You get nothing out of it.
KC Davis 9:36
Yeah, this whole like private versus public fear is interesting to me online, because I feel like a lot of the conversations that we have, a lot of the discourse around community, does not take into account the very unique dynamics of online platforms. So like, when we talk about, let's just take like, the very comment, you know, like, listen to, and then fill in the blank, right, listen to. Black women listen to people with disabilities. And it's this idea that you know you don't necessarily get to be like the arbiter of whether you caused harm, like the people who you know. You need to listen to people that say, Hey, that harmed me, and it's intent versus impact. And all the stuff, like all of that stuff, is really, really true, and there aren't a lot of people there to help you walk through what that actually means in the context of 1.6 million people watching your videos, right? And like, because, okay, like, you know, you've said something or you've done something, and like, no one is a monolith. And so there's a portion of people that are like, hey, that's fine, and a portion of people that are really angry about it, and maybe you need to address this. And how do you address it online? Do you address it offline? If someone came to you offline and you address it, you know, not every mistake needs a big public apology video. So you have to make these decisions about, you know, what does need me to address publicly, and what you know, I addressed privately, and I kind of did my thing, but now there's still people publicly that are upset because they didn't see whatever that work was. And you start to, you know, when you when we hear this, sort of like, you need to listen to people, and it's like, well, is that the same thing as every single person that has an opinion in your comment section, sort of like being owed or needing to get an explanation or you're wrong, as long as anyone can say you're wrong, and that there's like, a tricky way to translate some of those lessons on how do you listen to people while recognizing that you know not everything kind of going back to our First point, not everything has to be performed publicly and but maybe some things do,
Franchesca Ramsey 11:46
yeah, I mean, I think, unfortunately, there's not really an easy answer for that. I think it's something that I struggle with myself, and we kind of touched on this before, is being okay with the fact that you're not always going to get it right. Everyone's not going to like you that even when you really make your best effort to do it right, it's not going to be enough for some people. And the same way that when you have conflict with someone and they say, I'm really sorry, and you decide you're not going to forgive them, sometimes you're on the other end, and you say you're really sorry and the harm was just too big, and the person says, like, I can't forgive you, and you just have to be okay with it. You have to say, like, my actions will hopefully show you that I've made the changes and I'm bettering myself, and I'm trying to do what's right. And if it's not enough for you. It's okay. It's not gonna you see this a lot of times where someone says, like, oh, I said, I'm sorry. Like, what more do you want? Like, it's like, oh, so then you weren't really sorry. What you wanted was to be forgiven. You didn't actually want to repair the harm. You didn't want to change your behavior and do better. You wanted a clean stamp, and then to move on, if you're really trying to move forward and be better and learn, you have to accept, oh, it's not going to work for some people, but I'm still going to do what's right. I'm going to do what's right not because it's profitable, not because I'm going to get rewarded for it, not because my name is going to be in lights, because it's the right thing to do, because most of the time the right thing to do. Don't get you anything, nothing. You know, we're not all getting a Nobel Prize. Sometimes you lose you lose jobs, you lose friends, you lose opportunities, because you're trying to stick to your morals, but you stick to your morals because that's the right thing to do. And it's I get messages from people about this all the time, and I'm like, I wish I had an easier answer for you.
KC Davis 13:48
One of the boundaries that also has really helped me, particularly when I make like white woman mistakes, is, do I want to do the right thing or like? Is my goal to do the right thing, or is my goal to be seen as doing the right thing?
Franchesca Ramsey 14:06
If no one was around, would you do the right thing?
KC Davis 14:09
And sometimes like, I will take steps to like be accountable and rectify situation, and for whatever reason that is not somebody doesn't like that, either it was a publicly and it wasn't good enough, or sometimes it was just something that actually went private, and that work went on privately, and I didn't make a video about, Oh, and here's all the things I learned. And so early on, what would happen is someone would say, like, you're not doing this, and I would want to respond with, actually, I am doing this. Here are all the things that I'm doing. And then really quickly it was like, Oh, so you get in this place where, okay, if I don't publicize all of this thing that I did, that I thought all these ways. I thought that I was meeting my integrity. There's this group of people that will think that I. Didn't. But if I do make that move to publicize it, to make these people think this, then it will do something that tastes bad. It will be this. Here's this self aggrandizing. Let me give you I've now centered myself, to give you a long list of how I'm really okay, and you're not allowed to think that about me. And I've learned that like, truly, most of the time, the more appropriate response is, like, just to allow people to misunderstand, or I can let someone know you know something, but like, if it ever comes down to the only way this person is going to think that I have not done the wrong thing is to make a big, long video about how I've done all the right things. It will not feel good. It will not taste good in anyone's mouth. It will not center the right things, it will it will blow up. It will not feel good, and it will not have, it will have just been about me, really caring that user number 904455, is wrong about me, and they see that they're wrong about me, and that's when I kind of go back to that, like, Okay, did I pursue the right thing? Yes, I did. So that's what I developed,
Franchesca Ramsey 16:10
like, a number of just like responses that I share all the time, that I go back to when I feel myself wanting to defend myself and go back and forth. I often tell people it's okay for us to see this differently. It's just okay, like, I again, especially on the internet where it's like, I don't know you, I don't know you, you don't know me. You have a life. I have a life, and I realize I'm in a privileged position in that like this don't pay my bills. So like, if this was fucking on my check, it would be very different, but it's not, and it's okay if you have to unfollow me, it's okay if you have to block me, it's okay if you report this video, it's okay if my Tiktok gets taken down. I mean, I'm gonna be disappointed, but I'll be fine. I'll move on. And I also often say I'm not gonna repeat myself. I was clear the first time. At this point, you were just asking me to give you more of my time when I said it very clearly, and that's it. And I like doing that because it is a trick that makes me go. Now I really can't respond, because I'm gonna look fucking stupid. Yeah, if I just said I'm not gonna repeat myself, and then I repeat myself. Yeah,
KC Davis 17:16
I sometimes will say, like, if someone's really pushing and pushing and pushing, I'll say, I understand that you don't agree with my choices,
Franchesca Ramsey 17:23
and I'm okay with it. Like, yes.
KC Davis 17:26
Like, just to put it back, like, put it back into this perspective of, like, number one, this is just a disagreement on opinion. This isn't a lot of people like to turn it of like, hey, because I've, you know, I'm trying to hold you accountable, and if you don't do what I think you should do, you're a bad person who doesn't want to be accountable who did it? And it's like, actually, this is just two people having a differing opinion on what we and like, I've done what I think, you know, meets my standards of integrity the best I can. You don't think that I did. That's okay. Neither one of us is bad or wrong. I understand, and then I'm also, like, making them realize, like you're just repeating yourself, like your goal now is to get me to do something to control my behavior, and I'm letting you know, like I'm not going like, I understand you disagree with my decision, clear, nothing to argue about.
Franchesca Ramsey 18:16
Yeah? Well, yeah, I do something really similar. And I think what's really smart about that is, at the crux of it, people just want to be heard a lot of times, and I've learned through my time on the internet, dealing with my audience and people that I actually know and people that don't like me and people that have you know, dedicated hours of their content to talking about how they dislike me is that a lot of people don't feel heard in their real life, and so the Internet is a place where they feel like they could be heard. And so sometimes, when I'm going back and forth with someone, sometimes I just say, I hear you. It doesn't mean that I agree with you. It doesn't mean that you're right. I just I hear you, I hear where you're coming from. And I've again doesn't always work, but I've oftentimes found people that are just like, you know, thank you so much for hearing me. I really respect that we had this conversation, even though I still think you're wrong about blah, blah, blah, it's like, wow, how unfortunate that you've been in too many situations where people just didn't listen to you. And I know how frustrating that is when you're being misrepresented, and it's just like, but this is what I feel, this is what's important to me, or like, this is what I believe is right, or, and the person's just got their fingers in their ears, and you're just saying, I just, I just want to know that this is penetrated, and then I can move on. And so sometimes you just have to give that to people. I understand is a great one. I use. I've heard you, and sometimes I've said to people, especially when I can really see that they're upset and it's not going anywhere, is I say, like, how would you like this to be resolved? Like, what do you want? Because if you. What you want is for me to say I'm wrong. You're right. That's not gonna happen. But if you want, because I don't think I'm wrong, but if there's something that you want me to do, and it's within reason, I might be able to do it. Sometimes I had somebody say, you know, I'm getting dog piled because of your comments and blah, blah, blah, I said, What would you like me to do? Can you delete the comment? Okay, I'll delete it. Hey, I remember one time I was, I had gone through a bad breakup, for Jessica was not being smart. She was sub tweeting. And I was sub tweeting about this girl and all this drama and whatever, she showed up in the comments, and she was like, You blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and and she said, You're you're posting this for validation, and you need to take this down. And I said, You know what you are, right? I was posting this for validation. I didn't name you, but obviously you're upset, because you know what's about you, so I'll delete this. And then, sure enough, we exchanged some very friendly emails, and we're not friends, but like, we decided to squash it, and it was a great example of, like, I fucked up. Somebody was unhappy, and so I said, and again, what I said, No, sub tweets was not wrong. That's probably why she was upset, but how I went about it was not right, and she was upset, and I could acknowledge that I had done the wrong thing. And so if deleting this, because it was one of those things where, like, I fired off a subtweet and then it went viral, and because people were agreeing with it, or they had been the same situation, and it must have come across her feed, and she was not happy about it, even though she wasn't named. And so I said, No problem. I can just delete it. It's over. And I think more people would be served to just say, what is going to help us move forward? It doesn't mean that anyone's the winner or the loser. We're just agreeing to disagree and move on.
KC Davis 21:48
Yeah. So the last thing I wanted to ask you about is, what are some lessons that you've learned, or advice that you maybe have to give, or maybe just experience, some perspectives on how to engage with like, bigger issues as they come, as they're happening, whether they're political issues or social issues or things like that. Because I feel like there's kind of like two sides to the polarity. Of like, there's that frustration of like, I need to have a hot take on everything. But then there's also this, like, I feel like it would be weird for me to not say anything. Then sometimes there's a lot of pressure from an audience for you to address something, and then you know, so what are some like, kind of maybe hard earned perspectives you have on that?
Franchesca Ramsey 22:31
Yeah, something that my therapist says to me a lot that has been really helpful for me is like knowing what your WHY IS, and when I know what my why is, it helps me make decisions about what I speak on, what I share, what I create. And for me, my Why is telling untold stories and making people feel seen. And sometimes that means, like, posting a silly video, sometimes that means sharing content from someone else. And I think my why also kind of like what we're talking about, the calling in versus calling out. Like, am I sharing this because I want to look knowledgeable and informed and I want to be a good look like a good person? Or am I sharing this because something is really important that needs to be amplified and I'm the best person to speak on it, or I have a perspective that people haven't heard. I use that a lot when I decide if I'm making content. And I think that's one of the things I really don't like about Tiktok, is that it rewards everybody speaking on something. And a lot of people there the videos are like, I don't really have anything, I don't really know anything about this, or I don't you know. People are asking me to talk about no one is asking you to talk about this, but okay, but everyone's talking about it, so they need to. And for me, I'm of the mind of, like, am I adding anything to this conversation? And if not, I'm just not going to participate. Doesn't mean the conversation is not important. Just means that, like, I Francesca, don't have anything to share, so I'll just share what somebody else has said. You know, someone who's more informed, a journalist, you know, and you know, an economic specialist, somebody who has some letters at the end of their name. And I can say, You know what? That makes some sense. Now, why am I going to just try to, like, regurgitate what I hate, those videos that are like, I saw somebody that said it's like, just share the video with the person that said it like, I don't need your cliff notes version of it, because you're just trying to get views. So I think, like asking yourself, like, What's your why? And everyone's going to be different. And then the thing that I've tried to do to varying degrees of success is to be candid about my wins, but also be candid about my failures. I have found that that has given me goodwill with my audience, because it happens so rarely, that when you do fuck up, if you're like, Yeah, you know, I fucked up. And instead of trying to sleep it under the rug, like, here's what happened and whatever, you're not going to win everybody over. But for me. Me, more times than not, people are like, Yeah, you know, I rock with you. You've always you've done that the entire time. I've been a fan of yours. You know, sometimes you get it wrong. You're human. It happens. And then when it comes to, like, speaking on certain things, I always similarly to how I feel when I've been wronged or I have, like, strong feelings about something. When something happens, I try to give myself a moment to make sure I have all the facts. And that has come from mistakes. The story I talk about my book was there was a guy who posted on Facebook that he was throwing out resumes of anybody whose name sounded too black and they like went viral, and everybody was trying to find where he worked. And I was on the case, and I found where he worked, and I posted it on Tumblr. And then we were calling the office, and we were yelling, and blah, blah, blah, and the guy did not work there. We were calling some like, random business, and we were flooding their phone lines, and they had like, an automated, like, off site phone service, and they had just been instructed, if you said, Hey, does Casey Davis work there, they were just supposed to say, Oh yes, we will send her a message, even if you didn't work there. They were just instructed to do that. And so that's what they were doing. And I remember when the company put out a statement, and they were like, that person does not work here. We do not know who that person is. I felt so stupid, and I was like, I was not the sole person responsible, but I had this moment of, if I had just taken, like, two seconds to just one, one, what is my why I want this person fired or like, or do I want to have a conversation about, you know, racism in the workplace and how certain names get like? That's a conversation worth having. But I've decided that this, like, one random guy needs to lose his job, and I need everybody to know about it. And so I jumped in, and I didn't have all the facts, and then you can unring the bell. And so similarly, something will happen in the news, or a celebrity will do something, or whatever. And like, everyone is so fast to be like, I have to respond to this. And it's like, Did it really happen like that? Like, do we know all the information, it doesn't mean that it's not worth talking about. But like, I am not the Associated Press. Like, why do I have to talk about it the minute it happens? The minute it happens? How many times Kate Middleton, perfect example, homegirl, was missing, quote, unquote, she just had cancer. And so many people were like, holy shit. I've made like 30 videos saying that she was kidnapped and she's dead, and conspiracy theories, and we're making all these jokes, and then she comes out, and she's like, Hey everyone, I have cancer. And I was like, now if y'all had just satchel asses down and waited again, like it was weird, the Royal Family handled it poorly. Like, don't get me wrong, but like, everyone was just so quick to have a response. And it's like, sometimes it's okay to just say, I don't have enough information to comment on this.
KC Davis 28:19
There's been a couple of times where I have made a video where I've said, like, hey, this thing happened, and a lot of people are talking about it, and I do not have a hot take. I am also processing this thing, this like Zeitgeist event that happened. But I just, you know, it occurs to me that it might feel strange to you that I'm not saying anything, you know, that just to see my content go on and and, you know, I just want you to know like I'm right there with you, like I am also sort of reeling from this whatever, whatever I think I might have posted something similar to that, like when January 6 happened, where it was like, I don't have a comment. I may never have a comment, but I know that some of you sometimes are, like, wondering, like, why do you not seem disturbed by this? And I think sometimes, particularly being a white woman, a lot of people have that, like, fear of like, when, like, are you not saying anything? Because you just don't care if you're not affected. And it's not this, like, demand. It's more like a safety check. It's like, I'm constantly wondering if you are indeed continue to be a safe person. And so sometimes that's like, the best I've come up with, yeah. And
Franchesca Ramsey 29:34
I'm also just something that I say all the time is, like, speak up, not over and sometimes, like, you just don't need to hear from me. And like, I would rather reshare, repost someone else's content, you know, or recommend, like, a book or an article or, you know, I oftentimes will read something and I'll just, like, post it on my story. And I'm not saying like, this is the right perspective, or, like, here's why you should read this. It's just like I read. And I thought this was interesting, and I'm sharing it with you. And so people are like, what do you think about blah, blah? Sometimes I'm like, I really have been living my offline life, and I don't know about that thing. And I think, on the one hand, it's flattering when people care what I think, but I often have to remind people like, I'm a comedy writer. Like, yeah, even when I was doing decoded, which was, you know, is a show about race and pop culture, and one that I'm really proud of and opened a lot of doors for me. Like I was reading a teleprompter on that show. I know I'd do a great job at it, but people are like, You are so smart I need to know what you think about a, b and c. And I'm like, I had, like, a team of writers and fact checkers working on that show, and so, like, you were getting a really funny, concise, five minute explainer, but it took like two weeks to write, and it went through all these different channels to make sure that it was correct before it was put out. It was not a hot take. And so, like, now something is happening, and you know, it's like, Will you speak on this thing? And I'm like, do you want me to speak on it because you don't know how you feel about it? Or you want me to filter through how you should feel about it? Or do you actually care how I feel? Because real talk, like, I'm not qualified to speak on a lot of things, like, a lot of times I'm just sharing my opinion. And again, I've gotten to a place where I'm okay, not commenting on every single thing. And I have really been making a conscientious effort in recent years to, like, move away from being, like, the social justice educator. It's tiring. I just I want to, like, be funny and like, Sure, say stuff that's smart too, but like, I don't want to be tasked with, like, oh, this tragedy happened. Like, Francesca has to explain it in like, a minute video that's shareable. Like, I just, like, drew something in my journal that I thought was cool. Look at this. I painted another wall. Like, I'm just, like, I want to do that. And I think people need to give themselves permission to do that again. It's so important to talk about all these issues. But, like, it's weird to me when I'm like, You are a cupcake influencer. Like, why are you explaining to me? Like, geopolitical news with fucking icing? Like, why are you You don't I mean, it's like, when the freaking Johnny Depp trial happened, like, suddenly everyone was like, a body language expert, and I was like, just make your fucking crochet videos and go like, I don't need to hear from you about this. I don't think you're qualified, and I don't think you actually care. You just want the views, like, listen
KC Davis 32:35
the nuttiest one that I ever got. This was like six degrees too. Was I had a guest on my podcast to talk about friendship. She left like she did, like an advice column about friendship, and we want to talk about, like, different kinds of friendship. And so I had her on my podcast. She has a tick tock, but, I mean, she had probably, like, 20 or 30,000 followers. There's, like, a very small account, but I just happened on some of fruities. But then I got an email from someone, from a listener that was like, I'm just so disappointed that you had this person on your podcast because, like, they have not used their platform to talk about and like, I don't remember what it was. I don't know if it was like they have not spoken about Palestine, or like they haven't talked about this, like, event that happened, and I remember being like, wait, wait, wait, you're disappointed in me for having a content creator that talks about friendship on because on a completely unrelated social media account where she talks about friendship, she did not make a commentary on some sort of, like geopolitical happening. I was like, This is strange. Yeah,
Franchesca Ramsey 33:35
it's also just, it's so interesting to me, like, personally, if I'm going to do someone's podcast, or if I'm working with someone, you know, I do my due diligence, but sometimes it's like, I'm on a panel with someone. I'm like, I don't freaking know this person. I don't know every single thing that they've done or said, and it's like, do you denounce this thing they said in like, this year? And I'm like, yeah, that's pretty fucked up. If I talked to them, I would say that was fucked up, but on the panel, it had no relevance, and I didn't know about it. And I can't go back in time and tell them that I disagree with the thing that they did that I didn't know about until now. Like, I
KC Davis 34:14
just not everything needs a press release. Ah,
Franchesca Ramsey 34:17
no, it's such a weird way to engage. And I just have to remind myself that people that have the time and energy to devote to that, like, it has really nothing to do with me. It has it's other stuff that has nothing to do with me. And like, I just have to wish them well and hope they figure it out. But it's taken my other time to get there. The
KC Davis 34:38
other mind trick that I do sometimes it really works is that I what I noticed is that when people would say really hateful things to me or really critical things to me, I was automatically picturing like a reasonable person that I wanted to like me or agree with me. And so then I felt this like I need to convince them, no, I need to show them if I just explained. And then I was watching Tiktok one time, and it came across those like, street this is, I'll admit, this is a little mean, but it was like street interviews from people at Trump rallies. But like, in particular, the ones that are like, very into conspiracy theories, where they would be like, he's the new Christ. He's the new Christ. I
Franchesca Ramsey 35:17
saw him pulling all the strings. But also he's not like, how? And they're like, Well, why
KC Davis 35:22
do you think that like? Because I saw his face in my pancake, right? And so what I started doing was realizing, like, Casey, why are you assuming that every person that like is a scholar, like, start thinking of him as this person? And so I did. I'd be like, I would picture it coming out of the mouth of like, the person who thought they saw Trump in their pancake syrup, and then being like, Is this someone that I need to respond to? Like? Is the substance of this necessary like? Do I even care what this person thinks of me? And all of a sudden I was like, so free of a lot of like, because sometimes there was like, a genuine, substantive like, I'm concerned about XYZ, and sometimes it was something where it's like, You're so wrong, and it would be so easy to prove myself right, but also like, I don't care enough because you think Trump's in your pancake. Yeah. I
Franchesca Ramsey 36:12
mean, I think that's definitely a way to go about it. And I think, you know, having that offline community that gives you that gut check, because sometimes, like, I've had times like that too, where someone says something that, like, I really don't agree with but there's like, a kernel in there that I'm like, Oh, is that true? I don't know. And so then I sometimes I just have to say to, like, again, my very offline friends who don't know any of the drama or any of the viral whatever, I'm just like, Can I get your read on this? Just tell me, like, what do you think about this? And if they say something like, I don't know. Think that they're right about blah, blah, blah, I'm like, Oh, fuck. Well, you're like, super offline, and I trust you, and I know you, and I know you're gonna give me, like, an unbiased opinion. Then you know again, but it's goes back to that. Why do you want to win internet arguments, or for me, I want to tell untold stories. I want to make people feel seen. Sometimes that means engaging with people who think differently for me so that I can better inform my content. Sometimes that means logging off so I can do a better job at making my content sometimes that means taking time away from the internet so that I can make sure that I'm better informed before I decide to come back and make something. And
KC Davis 37:25
sometimes I'll take that, like, kernel of truth and still not engage with someone, because, like, okay, there was a kernel of truth, and I can take that, and I can grow from that. But it's also clear to me that you are a person that is not for me, that like, your intent was to wound me, and so I don't have to come back to you and be vulnerable about that, like, I can take this like, little kernel of gift you gave to me and, like, leave you on red.
Franchesca Ramsey 37:46
I mean, we are not meant to engage with 100,000 people's opinions every single day. We're just not I'm not supposed to know what everybody's doing at all times. I'm not supposed to know about like, every like, exciting event in every person's life. I'm not supposed to know about those things at all times. And so sometimes, yeah, sometimes I have, like, a subset of my audience that thinks that we have, like, that parasocial relationship. And again, it's very flattering. But sometimes they'll just like, dump in my inbox and tell me, like, all kinds of crazy things. And I'm like, I know you're going through something, but like, I really don't have the space to take this on. And, like, I just have to say, like, Hey, thank you for sharing this with me. I hope that you are able to, like, find healing and peace. I'm sorry I'm not the person to like, help you with this, you know. Or sometimes I just, like, send them a heart emoji. And I'm like, that's all I can do right now. Like, I'm literally doing 8 million things, and I just saw your long wall of text, and I'm like, I can't, I really can't do this right now, and I also don't know you, and like, I don't want to say the wrong thing. I'm not a therapist, I'm not a marriage counselor, or whatever it might be, and it's just okay to be like, I can't. This isn't for me. I can't do this. I
KC Davis 39:02
am one of the like, lessons that I learned when I was running Drug Rehabs that oddly helps me with social media. Because there was a long time where I was getting lots of emails and DMS about, like, people's personal and they're heart wrenching. And I especially, you know, setting myself as a book creator who's like, trying to give helpful tips to people struggling. It's like I wanted to answer every single one, and I wanted to help every single one. And I took it really hard if someone was like, hey, that tip didn't work for me. And I realized that, like, My why is, like, I'm here to build a really good net, not to go fishing with a fishing pole. So, like, I'm not worried about, like, every fish on the line. I'm not here to save everyone or to fix everyone's problems, yeah. Like, I'm here to make a really good net, knowing that some people will not get caught up, like, some people will pass through, some people won't be helped by it, but in general, like, I have a structure of creating content and education that lots of people can kind of get caught up in, in a good way, and that was always kind of a helpful way, because it's hard to like. Catch and release. You know what I mean, when you kind of feel like, oh, gosh, this person really kind of dumped this shout
Franchesca Ramsey 40:04
out to you for keeping that fish analogy going, catch and release. Thank you. Yeah, catch
KC Davis 40:10
and release. There you go. Francesca, this has been such a great conversation, and I'm glad that I waited till I had like the perfect person to have it, because you are just such a grounding person to talk to, and I appreciate your perspectives a lot, and especially on this.
Franchesca Ramsey 40:25
Thank you so much. That means a lot. And like I said before, I am such a fan of your work and what you bring to this space. I think you do a really good job of navigating challenging conversations with a huge audience. And I'm just very honored that I am in community with you, and that I've been able to learn from you and, yeah, and that we've been able to have, like, a fun but heartfelt conversation. I really appreciate it. Thank
KC Davis 40:49
you. If people want to follow you, where can they find you?
Franchesca Ramsey 40:51
I'm on Instagram at Chesca Lee, C, H, E, S c, a, l, e, i, G, H, my website is francesca.net Francesca F, R, a, n, C, H, E, S, C, a.net, and then I'm on tick tock as Francesca Lee. Somebody else got my got my username. I'm usually, I'm usually tuscali everybody everywhere. But if you just search Chesca Lee or Francesca Ramsey on tick tock, you
KC Davis 41:14
can find me Awesome. Well, have a great day.
Franchesca Ramsey 41:17
Thank you. You too. You