118: OCD in Children: When it’s More than Anxiety with Natasha Daniels
Today’s episode will be helpful for all parents—and for anyone who has ever been a child. We are discussing OCD, specifically in children, with Natasha Daniels. She has been an anxiety and OCD child therapist for over two decades. As the mother of three kids with anxiety and OCD, her passion and perspective is both professional and personal. Join us to learn more!
Show Highlights:
OCD differs from general anxiety and requires very specific therapies.
Signs of OCD, a diverse, idiosyncratic disorder that shows up differently for each person
In children, a common sign of OCD is the tendency to ask theme-based, repetitive questions.
Is it anxiety or OCD?
Autism and OCD: Comfort/coping skills or compulsion?
When does my child need professional help? How do I know?
OCD or nervous tics?
A discussion of mental health issues in families, social anxiety, neuroplasticity, and addiction
Finding “the sweet spot” as a parent (so as not to coddle but not fuel anxiety)
The best approach: parents can refuse to participate in the “overblownness” and drama while not being dismissive
The wisdom in coaching our kids
Resources and Links:
Connect with Natasha Daniels: Website (find resources, courses, podcast episodes, and more)
OCD Resources: International OCD Foundation and Treat My OCD
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC Davis 0:00
Music. Hello, you Cynthia balls of stardust, you little OCD weirdos. I say that with affection, of course, because today we're going to talk about OCD. And specifically we're going to talk about OCD in children. And if you are a parent, this is going to be a good episode. And you know what? If you're not a parent, but you've ever been a child, you're going to want to listen to this one too. We're going to talk about OCD today with Natasha. Daniels, Natasha, thank you for being here.
Natasha Daniels 0:29
Oh, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Yeah, okay,
KC Davis 0:32
so introduce yourself. Tell us why you know about this subject. Well,
Natasha Daniels 0:36
clinically, I am an anxiety and OCD child therapist. I have been for two decades, so I feel really old. I think more importantly, I actually have three kids with anxiety and OCD, and so it's something that I live with as a parent. So I wear both hats.
KC Davis 0:50
I love that I always feel like that's kind of the perfect that's like the clinician I want. Like I want the personal and I want the clinical, because they both bring something really important, and they both bring something that the other side can't bring by itself. Totally
Natasha Daniels 1:05
Yeah. You want someone who gets it and knows how hard it is, yeah?
KC Davis 1:08
So when we chatted before the recording, one of the things that you're really passionate about is talking about the distinction between OCD and just kind of general anxiety or anxiety that may be coming from other sources, and tell me why it is you think that is so important that we kind of pull out OCD as something distinct.
Natasha Daniels 1:32
It's so important. I'm glad you're starting with this, because I think it's so so important because the therapeutic approach is different, and if you treat OCD as if it's anxiety, and you go to a regular general practitioner and they try, like cognitive behavioral therapy or some other approaches, it's not going to work with someone with OCD. And in fact, with cognitive behavioral therapy can actually make it worse with general CBT. And so you want very specific ERP exposure response prevention, which is a type of CBT, not to throw acronyms at you, like, right from the get go, but that's important. Yeah.
KC Davis 2:07
And, you know, a lot of my I think it's hard as when thinking as adults, right? Like, when you're an adult looking back at your life and you're kind of trying to figure out, like, Hey, where's all this stuff coming from for me, it's so difficult as an adult, because by then you have so much life experience, you probably have some traumas thrown in there. And I've just never met, I don't know that I've ever met somebody had, like, one thing going on, right? Like, Sure, maybe they are autistic, but they also have ADHD, and there's some trauma, and, you know, maybe the world around them is burning and like, it's just, there's just so much going on. And, you know, I wouldn't say that it's totally easy with kids, but at least earlier in life, there are fewer factors to consider, and there's so much anxiety that I think just comes from living if you're disabled, if you're neuro divergent, if you have mental health issues, if you are, you know, from a marginalized community, if you are a woman, if you are living in late stage capitalism. I mean, there's just so many reasons, and some of them very valid, to feel anxious. And so it makes sense that when we're looking at our kids and we're going, Okay, well, my kid is really anxious, and they're also ADHD, so maybe it's that, or, well, maybe they're autistic, or maybe it's that, or is this just social anxiety, or is this a normal development, like, sometimes I feel like I go too much the opposite way, like it's normal for a kid to feel some anxiety at certain developmental ages, right? So I guess my question is, you know, what would be, kind of some of the signs that I as a parent would be looking for that should not necessarily be, oh, this is definitely OCD, but should sort of, like, turn that curiosity on. For me,
Natasha Daniels 3:53
it's interesting, because I feel like out of all the disorders that you can have, especially in childhood, OCD is the oddball where it's like, it's very clear to see it when you know what to look for, versus, you know, fleshing out the differences between, you know, autistic behavior or ADHD behavior and OCD. Then when you get into the CO occurring struggles, then it gets a little bit trickier. I have kids with multiple co occurring things going on. And my son and I always argue, he'll be like, That's my ADHD. And I'm like, I think that's OCD. We actually had a huge argument last night about that, and I was like, we could just agree to disagree. Yeah, he knows his brain, but I am a therapist, so but the different like the signs that you might see when you're looking at your child's behavior is and it is hard to say, because OCD is such a diverse, idiosyncratic disorder that shows up differently for each person, and so I think that is one of the reasons why it's missed. Most people don't get diagnosed. It can take 17 years to get a diagnosis in the right treatment, because it's so hard if you're not trained and had a cocd, but on a very general term, like if you see a child doing. Uh, repetitive behavior, because compulsions can tend to be repetitive and not purpose filled, right? So if your child's like going through a door, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, we obviously know the stereotypes of washing their hands or lighting things up, but I want to talk about some non stereotypical ones that are super common but get missed in in the media that involve the parent. This one gets missed a lot. So if your child's asking you questions on a loop, and you're like, oh my gosh, like, it's kind of, I always say, like, the pull your hair out moment where you're like, we've already, I've asked this, I've answered this, like, 300 times, and you're coming back for more. So it might look like, you know, Mom, I touched the clock, swipes, and then I wipe the sink down, and then I rinse my hands, and then I touch my mouth. Is that poisonous? Mom, I touched a plan outside and, you know, like, so it's all these kind of questions that are either reassurance seeking or checking, seeking. I thought that I might have gossiped about my friend the other day. Is that doesn't make me a bad person, and our kids are going to ask these questions. But then it's the intensity, and it's the lack of satiation, you know, like they're not getting anything from the conversation. It's almost like you're talking to a wall. And so I would look for those kind of things. So
KC Davis 6:06
let me ask you a couple questions on those kind of pop up for me. So like, what about because I think a lot of kids will do this sort of, like, asking question over and over when it comes to, like, wanting something. So it's like, Hey, I'm hungry. And, you know, maybe it takes you 10 minutes to put something together, but they're asking three times, I'm hungry. Are you getting me food? I'm hungry. But is that? Can that be developmentally like, distinguish whether it's kind of an impulse control? I'm hungry, I'm hungry. Are you making it? I'm hungry. Are you making it? Yes,
Natasha Daniels 6:33
that is a great a great distinction, because, yeah, kids can nag you, or they can be impulsive or impatient. They're normally when it's OCD, it's theme based. So you'll start to notice a theme like, wow, they're always asking me questions about if they've done something bad, or they're always asking me questions if something is poisonous, or they're always asking me questions if I wash my hands. Like you'll start to if you really pay attention initially, they seem like worry based questions, yes for the most part, yeah. And the other thing is, they typically want something from you, not the sandwich or whatever you're making, but they want a specific response, like you might say, I love you. And they'll say, No, you have to say, I love you too, you know. And they'll almost re script what you need to say, or how you or if you throw it back with, like, an ambiguous response, like, let's just use the Clorox wipes as an example. If you say, I'm sure it's okay, right? Like, just, you know you're busy, and you're like, I'm sure it's okay, that would not satisfy the OCD, typically. And so they might say, No, Mom, is it okay? And so you kind of get that push back. They're wanting to hear something specific. It can show up in all different ways. I'm just using examples, but it can look different.
KC Davis 7:48
What about like if you get asked, let's say you're getting pancakes, and your kid says, Don't put the whipped cream on until the pancakes have cooled down, otherwise it'll melt. You're like, Sure. And then you go, and you get the whipped cream from the thing, and you're walking over just now, remember, don't put the Like, you don't know where it's the same question, but it's almost like, it's like, okay, well, I clearly have remembered that you said it 30 seconds
Natasha Daniels 8:12
ago. No, I think that is, like, just anticipatory anxiety. Like, please don't do that. Like, I'm gonna freak out if you do that. Yeah. And for me, like, I think when it's OCD, intuitively, a parent will know the difference, like, you'll feel it, it's like It's nonsensical, versus those things of, like, I'm anxious. Did you do this? Because when you're talking to anxiety, like when your child is anxious, and I have kids with both issues, and so I can tell who I'm talking to, you know, the anxiety or the OCD. And so when it's anxiety, like, I feel like we can move forward. I'll try to give you some examples. Like, Well, I
KC Davis 8:45
think what comes to me, sort of intuitively, is that it seems like anxiety can be soothed, like, by by an emotional response, whereas, like, what I know about OCD, and I guess probably good to clarify for people at home, like, the reason it's called obsessive compulsive disorder is that actually the obsessions and the compulsions are two different aspects of it, right? And the obsession is whatever the belief is that isn't reasonable, but it's sort of impervious to logic, right? And then the compulsion refers to the action that one takes as a response to the obsession, either to try and manage it or to quell it, or to satisfy it, or whatever, right Would you say that's mostly accurate? So when we have a kid maybe asking about like, Are you sure it's not poisonous? Are you sure it's not poisonous? I kind of hear you saying that like a kid that just experiences some anxiety can be soothed, even if they need lots of soothing by like an attuned emotional response that not necessarily the words I'm using or that I'm saying the exact right thing, but that I'm just kind of being attuned and that helps, whereas a kid with OCD really needs, almost like they need me to participate in the ritual of specific words or specific reassurance. Businesses that don't seem to ever actually reassure they just seem to, like, put a pin in it for the moment because it's going to
Natasha Daniels 10:06
come back. Yeah, yes, that's a really great way to describe it.
KC Davis 10:10
And how do we because a lot of this also is sounding like kids on the spectrum, like, how do we distinguish between some of those, like, repetitive and restrictive behaviors that we might see with an autistic kid. How do we know whether that's their autism or whether it's just OCD, or maybe an autistic kid can have OCD, and how do we distinguish that?
Natasha Daniels 10:33
Yeah, and unfortunately, a lot of autistic kids have OCD. And so it does get really sticky when you get into the weeds, and then, on a general level, typically, that rigid, repetitive behavior, or stimming behavior that you see in autistic kids is comforting to them. There is like this comfort, like, I want this routine, I want my red cup. I want to go this way, compulsions. And even in autistic kids, that repetitive behavior is not comforting long term, like there's distress in it, there's like, this overwhelm in it. And so you can start to see the nuance and the difference. One is comfort and a coping skill, and the other one is a compulsion. And it's
KC Davis 11:10
that's an interesting that's an interesting distinction that I think is really helpful. So when you have a kid that's saying, like, No Mom, say these words, because we know that, like, scripting can happen with autistic kids too, but it sounds like you're saying, like, long term, we should be able to kind of clue in as to whether you know the restrictive behavior is like, what I know about autism is that if an autistic child can have their repetitive behavior, It kind of stabilizes them in a lot of ways. But does a compulsion have a stabilizing effect on a kid with OCD in
Natasha Daniels 11:49
the short term? Yes, and this is why it gets very confusing, because let's say you have a child who has just right OCD themes that one gets really confusing because just right and disgust themes are not fear based. They're feeling based. And so the fear is I won't be able to handle the discomfort of it not feeling just right, or I won't be able to handle the feeling of it feeling disgusting for me. And so those get missed a lot, and I think there is overlap. But when someone, let's just say someone has just right OCD themes, and you say something to them, but it didn't feel just right, they'll be like, No, say it again, and then you repeat it, and they're like, no, no, mom, like, you have to say it this way. You repeat it again. And there's escalation in, like, getting it to feel just right. And you'll know, I'm on a loop with them all the time where haven't raised an autistic child. So here's my like, caveat and disclaimer, and it's not my specialty, but certainly there's so many people in my community who are raising autistic kids, and the number keeps going up just because of the overlap. But I don't think you're gonna get that stuckness. Like there are people who can get stuck for hours with their kids on these loops that they can't escape, and the child explodes or implodes because they're not getting that satisfaction, because OCD is like, Nope, it didn't, it didn't feel just right. You have to say it again.
KC Davis 13:09
Well. And I wonder, even if, like, if a parent's listening and they're going, Okay, I know my kids on the spectrum, but it sounds like some of this stuff's going on. I wonder if, though, like, what the point you made at the beginning, where you said, like, OCD needs a different kind of intervention. I wonder if, at the end of the day, whether or not it is OCD or autism, if it's looking that similar, I wonder if that's the important thing to know, that perhaps an OCD intervention would be worth looking at to help an autistic child that is experiencing a lot of distress from a repetitive behavior, not necessarily like, oh, we need them to stop and look normal, but if they themselves are experiencing anxiety and distress, perhaps it's true that an autistic child experiencing that kind of distressful repetitive behavior does not need, as you said, a sort of like cognitive behavioral therapy, normal anxiety approach. But perhaps it would be worth looking at. Not so much. Oh, we have to know. We must know in black and white, is it OCD, but more? Hmm, this looks so much like it. Let's get curious about whether these kind of interventions would be helpful also, yeah,
Natasha Daniels 14:23
definitely. If it's causing distress and it's impacting their daily functioning, then that rigidity isn't serving them, and that would be something to look at. And how can they handle discomfort? Or how can they handle flexibility, which then it does overlap, because really, that is the ultimate goal with OCD treatment, is sitting with the discomfort and not scratching the itch. Now,
KC Davis 14:41
let me ask you another thing. How do we distinguish between OCD and maybe nervous tics? Like one of the things that happened to me when I was young was when my parents were going through a divorce, I developed, like some vocal tics, and I developed some almost. Was like, I guess compulsions around like, Okay, I've turned the light three times. I need to turn it till it feels right, or I need to. There were some other ones, but I had this little vocal tic where was like, and I wasn't doing it. I was doing it kind of subconsciously. It very much had to do with, there's a feeling that it feels like it's going to hit the spot. If I do it and it's not quite doing it, I have to kind of do it till it does. And they didn't persist through childhood. It happened in kind of like that space there. But it did have that similar I guess, when you were talking about the just right one, that kind of almost like, threw me back to like, Okay, I've done it on the left side. Now I have to do it on the right side. And I have to just kind of sit here and I have to just kind of sit here and do this until it feels right. Yeah. And I'm curious if those are related, or if, you know, there's kind of a spot here for, you know how to kind of ticks and those sort of things go into this. They
Natasha Daniels 15:54
are related. I mean, ticks can be co occurring, can be a co occurring condition with OCD, but there is something called toretic OCD, which actually is kind of ticks and OCD combining, and it's exactly what you just described. It's having that urge, that impulse to do, to have a tick, which is kind of automatic, but then OCD kind of hijacking that and saying you have to do it until it feels just right, or you have to do, you know, putting the OCD angle into it where there's intention, because tics, in and of themselves, are typically unrelated to thoughts or feelings. They just happen in your body. Sometimes you can suppress them, or you can have therapy to kind of work with them, but they are happening automatically. And a lot of kids with OCD have tics and that come and go and are transient, touretic. OCD is something different. It's exactly what you described
KC Davis 16:42
well, and I know probably a lot of neurodivergent kids may perhaps that have some echo Lolly like it might look like ticks just because they're kind of repeating. I'm curious if like, and I can't recall a lot of DSM criteria like, the real difference maker is that like creates clinically significant distress. Is OCD one of those, yes,
Natasha Daniels 17:06
like, if you look at the side box and you're looking at the criteria, it is really based on how disruptive it is in your life and your thoughts.
KC Davis 17:13
So we could be seeing maybe some of these things in our kids. I'm thinking about my parents looking at me during the divorce. I'm going and, you know, the lights. But I will say that although I relate on some levels to that feeling of just right, just right, just right, it wasn't like I could suppress it and it, I can honestly say it never got to a clinically significant level of distress for me. It wasn't, you know, it was kind of annoying to suppress it, but it wasn't something that was super disruptive. And so I always think that's important to say, because I think, you know, with our kids, like we might notice some things here and there, but it doesn't necessarily mean, oh my gosh, okay, my kid has OCD. It really does, as with many, many, many of the diagnoses, like, have to do with whether that it's creating a significant distress in that child,
Natasha Daniels 18:04
yeah. And, you know, some of us have that genetic seed and it just doesn't fully sprout, you know? I mean, I feel like, you know, well, anxiety, OCD, mental health issues are just rampant in my family, and I remember being a little kid and my pinky toe had to, like, I had to move my pinky toe every time I was in between a driveway, or if we were on the highway and there were lights, and I don't know, and I remember, but I had this, like, pull like, I had this kind of, like, rebellious personality in my brain. I must have been like, nine. I was like, I'm so tired of my brain telling me to do this. And so I just was like, I'm not doing it anymore. And that was like, a little seed. And then instead, you know, social anxiety sprouted. It was gonna get me somewhere. But it was like, we'll try OCD first. And it was like, Nope, that didn't work. Let's just go into social anxiety. But I think, yeah, sometimes
KC Davis 18:47
I do think, like, what's super interesting is that when we look at genetics, I mean, when we talk about mental health, especially like depression, for a long time, there was kind of this like, Well, is it environmental depression, situational depression, or is it like the chemicals in your brain are, and we know now that, like, that's not what depression is. And I'm not saying it doesn't involve chemicals in your brain, but like, you could have, for example, a like, there are some genes that are, I just know this because I have an autistic child, like, there are certain genes gene mutations that are related to autism and epilepsy. They're Same, same gene. And if you have this genetic mutation, a lot of people with this genetic mutation have autism and epilepsy, but not everyone with the genetic mutation does, and it has to do with how that whether or not that genetic mutation expresses itself, and to what level it expresses itself. So like you know, it could be dialed up to 10, it could be dialed up to one and even so, what causes a gene to express itself, or can be even an. Environmental factor could there could be something that happens that kind of causes that expression, or amps that expression up, and I find sort of that interplay. I mean, as a therapist, I feel like I have enough of that understanding to not speak a ton on it, because I'm not a psychiatrist or a, you know, neurologist, but I do think it's helpful to be aware that, like all of those bio psychosocial things are kind of interplaying together. Because I think as a parent, you can go down that wormhole of, how did this happen? Yeah,
Natasha Daniels 20:34
absolutely. And I think I mean the mean, what to me? What gives me hope with mental health issues, especially since it's rampant in my family, is the idea of neuroplasticity and epigenetics, and the beautiful thing of being able to alter my brain based on my behaviors and my thoughts and the interplay between genetics and environment is so powerful, and that's why you do twin studies, and you can have two identical twins And one doesn't have OCD, or one does really well and one doesn't, because there is this interplay, which I think offers hope that just because genetically, it's rampant my family, that doesn't mean that my kids are going to be institutionalized when they're older, because we can do things.
KC Davis 21:16
Yeah, and when I was in rehab for drugs, one of the things they explain to us is, like, when you flood your system with basically, like synthetic dopamine and oxytocin and all this, like your transmitters, your transmitter sites in your brain, like, actually begin to shut down, because your brain wants homeostasis. And so if you flood it, it goes, Oh, we have so much of this. We don't need this many. So let's shut some ports down, basically. And the effect of that is that then when you're not and so that's what that tolerance is. So now I'm using, and I'm not really even getting high. I'm just feeling normal, okay, no pain. But the other effect of that is that when I wasn't using, nothing made me happy anymore. Nothing was exciting. I didn't look forward to anything, and that was really depressing, right? And that you want to use more, because nothing feels good. And one of the things that I was told when I was in rehab was that, and this, I'm quoting this from, you know, 20 years ago now, so don't take my word for it, but they basically told us that it takes about 18 months of not using drugs for your brain to start to reopen, those receptors to kind of like reset. And they call, it's called, like, your hedonic threshold, right? Like, how much kind of pleasure you need to get happy. And so they're like, you have to be prepared that, like, things are going to feel like they're in gray scale for the first, you know, year and a half, but it will get better, and we need some tools to get then. Luckily, I was actually just institutionalized for the entire
Natasha Daniels 22:48
18 months. That is nice to just be there. One
KC Davis 22:50
of the things that happened was they were totally right, is that they did. My brain did begin to reset. My hedonic threshold began to lower, and, in fact, it reset itself so hard that I was a happier person than I had ever been that, like small things. And it was funny because me and my friends would joke, like, we've all become so boring and lame now because, like, we do these things that everyone's like, that looks like such a boring life. And we're like, dude, but you have no idea, like, my brain lights up at a monopoly game with my friends on a Friday night, like the smallest things, and it really reset my brain, reset my personality, and I think, like, reset the trajectory of my life. And that is all just neuroplasticity. Yeah, that's
Natasha Daniels 23:36
crazy. It's so good. They told you that, you know, I feel like, if we can just tell people, because then you understood, like, why everything was in black and white, and why it felt that way. And there's a light at the end of the tunnel that was probably so therapeutic for you to understand the science behind what you were experiencing that's interesting
KC Davis 23:53
well, and I kind of actually have this theory, just from my personal and professional experience with addiction. I actually believe that addiction is a subset of OCD, and the reason that I believe that is because when, from my personal and professional experience, because a lot of people go to rehab that are using drugs, a good percentage of them don't ever come back and they quit. And a good percentage of people who use too many drugs or drink too much alcohol never even make it to rehab. They just stop. And they were indistinguishable before they stopped, from people that you know ended up having, like substance use disorders and have chronic relapsing. And what we found to be the difference between people who kind of chronically relapsed and those that didn't, was that people who chronically relapsed had a belief that this time it will be different. It's not just it's so bad I don't care. I'm going to use again, because anyone can get to that spot. We're talking about the ones whose life would be going great, and then they would relapse. And every single time, there was this belief this time it will be different. Mm. Yeah, it wasn't really that bad last time. This time, I can control it. And there was no like. It was a belief impervious to logic. You could sit there and have all their friends and family read these letters. You could show them how many times they'd been to jail. You could talk about all and they would agree with you cognitively. And then, you know, they'd tell us in private sessions like, but my brain keeps telling me to do it anyways and that it'll probably be fine. And it was like, that is an obsession. They It was literally a mental obsession that if we could not figure out how to get the mental obsession to go away, it wouldn't matter how much sobriety they had, and I began to think of it that way, like this is a mental obsession about your ability to use drugs like other people, and your ability to moderate with a compulsion that you then go use and for whatever reason, like you are not able to moderate like other people. And that really changed the way that that we in the places that I worked at, like that we approached addiction treatment, yeah, which makes sense, which is kind of funny, that, like, I escaped the vocal tics, and then it was like, Yeah, but I think, like, like, there must have been a little, just a little dabble there.
Natasha Daniels 26:15
And I know there has been research on addiction and OCD and the overlap. And I'm not a neuroscientist, but I like to nerd out on it, and this same part of the brain, you know, addiction and OCD. So that's not surprising to me. I feel like, hopefully it
KC Davis 26:30
is also not that strange, because, like, only recently did we pull hoarding out as a separate diagnosis from OCD, yep. So like the idea that, you know, an obsession and a compulsion can pair with like those like, a behavior that isn't as kind of my like, as repetitive as like, exactly the same motion every time, and it's similar. Like, you will get somebody with hoarding disorder, and it's like, but I might use this right? And you can sit there and show them, but you've never used anything you have, but look at your house, but wouldn't it be but, and you will logic with them all day long, right? And there's a part of their brain that goes, I recognize this is reasonable, but it just never can get to that, like deep seated belief, place that drives their actions.
Natasha Daniels 27:13
Yes, that makes sense. Anyways, I know
KC Davis 27:17
that's kind of a tangent, but I just, I've always thought that addiction really should be looked at as a part of obsessive compulsive disorder. You know, we kind of talked a little bit about, you know, how OCD needs different interventions, and you mentioned a couple of those. But I'm also wondering, as a parent, you know, I feel like when it comes to anxiety in general, and we can make kind of, like, two opposite mistakes. And I think our generation grew up with parents that were very like, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and can't swim, throw you in the deep end. And who cares about your feelings. You know, like, this is silly to be scared of. Get on the bus. Like, quit doing that like. And so obviously that kind of, like running roughshod and being dismissive or even just being really punitive, like, didn't work. And so I'm of the generation where we're trying to do something different. But what I watch a lot of my generation do, and what I have found myself doing, is that I feel like sometimes I go too far in the opposite direction where I'm like, I mean, I hesitate to say coddling, because I'm not. It's not like, Oh, I'm too afraid. Like, I want to spoil my kids. It's more like, okay, honey. Like, we'll just wait with you, and we'll wait till you feel like doing it right. While the doctor's like, we have to give her the shot. She's never going to be ready for the shot. You just have to hold her down. I'm like, but like, but bodily autonomy. And here's what I noticed. It's funny, I mentioned the shot because that is what happened. It's really important to me to always tell my kids, yes, we're getting shots. I don't want you anxious about every doctor's appointment, because I spring it on you in the last moment. Exactly, yeah. And the first few times that they were old enough and they were, you know, my daughter would say, like, wait, wait, wait, I'm not ready. I'd be like, Stop, everyone. Stop. We will wait until she is ready, because I wanted her to have that feeling. I've been in medical procedures where they kind of overtake her autonomy. It was not good, but what I noticed was that it seemed to make it worse. I watched the fear grow bigger and bigger and bigger as she sat there, going, Okay, I'm not ready. Okay, right? And now we're almost in full blown panic. And I thought, Okay, I need to rethink this. Because, yes, I want her to, you know, I guess I have these values of bodily autonomy and of you feeling in control and consent, but at the same time, like, at what point is it my job as a parent to go, Okay, I love you. We're gonna get a shot. Now. I know it's scary, and I know you don't want it. I'm gonna hold your body on the count of three so that they can give it to you and that it'll be done. And she's going no, and I'm going one, two, and then her distress is like, four. 30 seconds, and then she's totally fine afterwards. And I guess the point of this big, long story, right? Is I feel like I waffle back and forth, right? I go from just figure it out, like, kind of, you know, which doesn't make it, it makes it worse, right? When I'm pushing really hard and I'm getting frustrated at whatever anxious thing they're in. But I also feel like sometimes I do too much of the like, well, we'll wait till you're ready. Okay, do you want to do it now, honey? Okay, what will make you feel better? And it's like that that also seems to grow the anxiety.
Natasha Daniels 30:28
Yeah, I 100% agree. I feel like there is this sweet spot that that we have to practice on a daily basis. You know, sometimes we swing too far to the left then too far to the right. And I know as a parent, I'm always trying to find that that sweet spot where anxious, the fuel to anxiety, is avoidance. And I think once we recognize that, we don't want to contribute to that fuel line, right? I mean, like anxiety is a fire, and it can't grow massively if it's not being fed avoidance on a daily basis, and so we can inadvertently partner with anxiety by facilitating avoidance to an extreme degree. And so it's always finding that sweet spot of, I don't want to push my kids off a cliff, but I want to encourage them to look over the cliff and see, oh, actually, there's a little bit of a ledge, and you can jump down, and then you can jump down again, and you don't have to fall off the cliff. You can actually climb down the cliff, but how do I get them to the edge so they can see that or that they have a parachute, and they can actually parasite whatever that's called. And so I know I messed that word up, but it's like finding that sweet spot. And but the shots is a great example, because everybody can relate to that, because a lot of kids are anxious about that, and I totally resonate with that too, because both my kids have had to have a lot of blood work in general, because one has celiac, one had Hashimotos and so and very phobic. But it's a good example, because it has to be done, just like our kids do have to have some sort of education, they do have to sleep, they do have to eat, right? These are things that anxiety impacts, and if we just give them their own agency to the point where we don't offer opportunities to practice being brave, we're robbing them of that experience. My mom, you know, she just threw me off the cliff. I would be throwing up in the back seat of a station wagon, and she'd be like, okay, here, take a napkin and then get get to first period. There was no talking about it, or like, you have anxiety. Let's talk about there was none of that that's extreme or being punitive, right? And like, my mom would, like, push me and say, like, you have to get up there and go do that. And it was like, I was afraid of her hitting me, and so I would do it. But that wasn't really therapeutic. So with my kids, it is, it's doing what you said, like exploring it. What's the scariest part of and it's interesting, because I had assumed because one has a fear of shots and the other one has a fear of blood work. And so I took them aside privately, and this was at different stages of development as well. Like, What's the scariest part about getting your blood taken? You know, for my son, it's being poked. And he actually had even, like OCD themes around being poked, like, we live in Arizona. He's afraid of the cacti. He was afraid of, like people poking his stomach. So he'd always hold his belly button. It got very compulsive. So I knew, Okay, it's the idea of being poked or stung. He was, like, terrified of anything that can sting him. It was all very related, but with my daughter, she was mainly afraid of getting her blood taken. And when I process What's the scariest part about getting your blood taken? I thought, because I'm afraid of getting my blood taken, I don't like the needle going my vein. That grosses me out. She's said, I don't like when they put that rubber band on my arm, I feel like my arm's gonna fall off. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. I would have never thought that that's the problem. And so, like, we did exposures. I bought a rubber band, you know, and we practiced the tightness. I actually advocated for her when she would get her blood taken, I'd say, please take the band off as soon as you can. That part bothers her, and so she was more in control. Did she get to have a pass and not have her blood taken? No, right? Because that's not an option. Did we get a lab to come to our house? Yes, because she throws up every time. So we accommodate on some level, but walk them through that with my son. This is going to sound really weird. We did exposures on poking, you know. I actually got a paper clip with his buy in. He earned prizes, and I would lightly poke him super light with a paper clip, which sounds bizarre, I know, and we're like, this is poking, you know. And that was like a 10 for him for a while, but I got to the point where he can get a shot, and it was like no big deal, because he kind of exposed himself to what that experience was.
KC Davis 34:28
I think this you said two words that I feel like are the answer for my generation and everyone else, is exposure and accommodation. Because I feel like, you know, I always have the saying of like, it's not our job to be the parent that we needed as a child. It's our job to be the parents that our children need. And so it's difficult if your parents never accommodated you and everything was in their mind, exposure. I'm quoting that right, because that's not true. Therapeutic exposure, but this kind of suck it up, no pain, no gain, figure it out. Stuff, your feelings, you know, whatever, whatever, Don't be weak and get over yourself. It's all in your head. We sometimes, I think as parents, react to that, and we feel as though any type of pushing our kids or exposure is going to be, like, really traumatic or really wrong, and so and we don't want to expose, we want to accommodate. And I think what you said is so beautiful, because it is the marriage of both. It is, I mean, you just named so many accommodations that you did, but there was also exposure. And you know what's funny, I wanted also share with you something similar about figuring out around shots, like what you assume, what the problem is, right? So both my kids hate shots, and when we went to get when the COVID vaccine finally came out, and I have one of my children is autistic, and you know, it was really hard for her, and we had to hold her down every time and give her the shot, and it was screaming. And so we go to get our COVID shot. Now, in those early days, right? You were going to, like the hospital, and they were fering you through the line, and they were doing adults and children. So when we get there, it's a seat in an auditorium next to a desk, and I've got one at this one, and I'm with the other one, and I'm about to say to the lady at the desk, and they're there going so fast, right? I'm about to warn her, like my daughter's autistic. She doesn't like shots. This woman turns around, goes right into her thigh, and she looks down at it and looks up at me. Literally did not flinch. She did not care. She did not flinch. And you know what? We realized she doesn't like to be held down. She was not screaming because of the shot. She was screaming because she did not know what was happening, and she did not like it when everyone was putting pressure on her limbs and on her body. And for, of course, for my other daughter, it's the opposite, right? It is the shot itself, like she you kind of have to help her stabilize her body, or she'll move around and hurt herself. And I just thought that was so interesting, what you mentioned. But So talk to me a little bit more about this idea of accommodating and exposing. And I wanted to kind of tie it back to what you said at the beginning, which is, like, how we need to do that differently for OCD than just other types of anxiety, yeah,
Natasha Daniels 37:10
and that is also a really great question, because I think that accommodation in the OCD world is like a four letter word. They're like, accommodate. It's the person we remove is accommodation. And I feel like that word is used differently in different communities. And so it has a different meaning. When we talk about OCD accommodations, we're talking about really participating in the compulsion. And I wish that we'd use a different language, because I think it does confuse parents who are navigating multiple worlds, the autistic world and the OCD world, because the accommodations used in a different way. Yeah, accommodations
KC Davis 37:42
means supports for independence or for whatever it almost seems more similar to, like to borrow a word from the addiction industry is enabling.
Natasha Daniels 37:51
Yeah, although enabling has a bad connotation too it
KC Davis 37:56
does. But I mean, when in the OCD world, when they say, don't accommodate the obsession. I wonder if what they mean is closer to the definition of when we say an addiction, like, don't enable the addiction. Yes, because we're not saying don't support them, don't accommodate them. We're also not saying like, you know, like, if I have a friend that's new in sobriety and I know how they feel around alcohol, I'm not gonna have alcohol at a party like that. Is accommodating, yeah, but we distinguish that in the addiction world from, oh, my friend, you know it needs money. And I know that if I give them money, they're probably gonna, you know, go use it to use and, but I'm too scared to say, yeah, so I'm gonna, but I don't want to be mad, and I just maybe, if I give it to them, right? Like, that's the enabling aspect of it. So it sounds like in the OCD world, when y'all say, don't accommodate it. You talk more about enabling it, as you said, like participating in it. Yes, that's
Natasha Daniels 38:46
a word I'm going to use then, because I feel like when I use the word accommodation, I upset the autistic world. But then the OCD world's clueless. Most of them are clueless to how those are, and I'm trying to educate people in the OCD world, like, don't use the word accommodate. People are getting upset about that in other areas. But what it means with OCD is you can easily enable, we use the award accommodation, even to the point where, like, you know, there's a therapy modality that talks about removing accommodation. We're not talking about removing support. So if your child has OCD most of the time, it's a family affair, and so OCD might boss the family around, like Don't say that word, or you can't sit there, or you have to wash your hands here, or everyone has to take their clothes off before they enter the house, or can't come into my room because you're contaminated. And we follow these rules that's enabling the OCD, and so that never helps. It doesn't happen overnight. And so to pull those back is takes time, and there's therapy modalities that help you pull those back over time, but the accommodation, and when we're talking about OCD or anxiety, there might be your child really can't function at school because they have to share, you know, joint supplies or whatever, and it's a decision of either they don't go to school at all, or I have to find some accommodations in the. School environment where they're not triggered, so they can get an education while we work on it, or when we're talking about anxiety, like, what is going to make my child comfortable while they're moving towards doing break things? Can my child get their blood test at home? Yes, that's an accommodation. Can they do certain things that will help them feel better and have autonomy while doing still scary, big things, because sometimes it's too big of a step to do something without those supports. Well,
KC Davis 40:29
and really what we're talking about in any world, whether it's addiction or OCD or autism, ADHD, is just scaffolding. Yeah, like, we want an appropriate scaffolding, and that's going to be different for each kid, because there are going to be especially when you get into like the and we would consider OCD a type of neuro divergence, but when you get into like the autism, ADHD, kind of duo, some people are going to need accommodations for the rest of their life. And so it's not that the goal is to scaffold every single person into complete independence, never needing accommodation. But we don't want to make the opposite mistake of, okay, we'll just cocoon this person to this serious degree for the rest of their life. A good example that comes up even with autism and ADHD is sensory sensitivities, especially sound. So a lot of kids with autism and ADHD are really sensitive to sound, and so you know, you have, like, your one accommodation for that is, like noise canceling headphones. One of the things from a pure, like audiologist perspective, is that the more you use noise canceling headphones, the more sensitive your hearing can become. So you kind of have to play this dance of, okay, well, for a lot of kids, you can't just not give them headphones because, oh, it'll make it worse. Because worse than what, they're already melting down. They already can't function at school. They're already in so much distress, and they don't have the skills to deal with that. But at the same time, we also don't want the answer to be okay, you know, we'll just wear these 24/7 unless it is to that. Like there might be a kid where there will be no scaffolding away from that, but there will be a lot of kids where we can scaffold in such a way that there are instances where we can use it where we need help, and there are instances where we are targeted in this is what we're working on via exposure and obviously doing that with a team. But I think that idea of scaffolding supports yeah is kind of what you're talking about, yeah.
Natasha Daniels 42:35
And I do have a really good example of that as well, just to show like, where we can inadvertently harm our kids or set them back versus encourage them. This is what I was arguing about with my 15 year old son last night. He like one of his predominant I think OCD issues is that he gets songs stuck in his head. And so with OCD, you can get songs stuck in your head. You can get images stuck in your head, not just intrusive thoughts or feelings, and to the point where he would melt down. He would not let us play like the music on the radio. His sister can't sing like nobody can hum like dominating the environment. And then when he got diagnosed with ADHD, he's like, Mom, you were wrong the whole time. It's my ADHD. Like,
KC Davis 43:16
I think I was like, most people with ADHD
Natasha Daniels 43:19
aren't getting like, they're not getting compulsive with having a song stuck in their head. It might be, you know, that it might happen, it might be distracting, but they're not getting distressed the way you are, like you would have a full on meltdown at the airport because he has a song stuck in his head. And so I said the volume button is probably higher because of your ADHD, and it's probably more distracting, but the idea that you're having it, it's getting stuck. And so what we have done is like you you can if you want to block the sound and you want to wear headphones or you want to put your air pods on, that's fine. You get to control what you want to do with that, but you're not going to control the environment. We're not going to turn the radio off, but we had to do it really slowly, because there'd be mornings that he's melting down and he can't go to school for all sorts of other anxiety OCD issues. I wasn't gonna put the radio on and just like, you know, push him off a cliff. I was like, we're gonna be quiet. He's not okay right now. But, you know, last night, I think he wanted this, like, global rule in our house again, that no one's gonna be allowed to sing. And I was like, that seems very compulsive to me, and we're not. I said, you know you're gonna have roommates, you're gonna have you know at your employment, you're gonna go to college. People are gonna be singing, they're gonna be playing the radio, and I will be doing you a disservice if, if I coddle you, or maybe I didn't use the word coddle, but if I cocoon you and have you live in a bubble where you have no exposure to this, what is that gonna be like when you grow up? We kind of agreed to disagree last night, but is it to be continued? But that's an example.
KC Davis 44:44
It's a great example also, because it also shows the what can be hard as a parent, especially if you grew up with a disability, which is that everyone always told you that everything was your fault, and so we can sometimes feel very guilty. But. By telling our child like, Hey, you're being inconsiderate. I know it's coming from your disability. I know that it's but you don't get to kind of hold the, you know, room hostage or whatever. And we feel that inner child wound, you know. And I always like to say, like, everything is emotional context. And telling a child, you know, hey, we can't just always turn the radio off. The saying that in a way that is attuned and kind and empathetic, and in a context where you are looking for appropriate accommodations and you do care about their sensory experiences and their challenges that is not going to be the same emotional context than your as your parent, who did not look for appropriate accommodations, did not take your disability seriously, was very dismissive, and said we're not turning the radio down just because your ears hurt. And I think that's kind of what we have to do our own healing to get to the place where we're willing to recognize like I have to teach my kids, and I do have to recognize which of these aspects of their disability might be lifelong and might be pretty intense, regardless of how much intervention, but also not let go of my responsibility as a parent to teach my kids about you Know, I want them to self advocate for themselves, and I want them to feel validity in their neuro divergence and their differences, and I want them to feel responsible for being a good citizen in society and believing that other people's needs in the environment are just as valid as theirs. And I think that's it, right? It's like your needs aren't less valid than everybody else, but they're not more valid than everybody else. Like, I want to, I want kids that believe that their needs are just as valid as everyone else's, even if their needs are different, you know, so that they can sort of take this process on, like for themselves. Once they're out of my house where they're they know how to think about, okay, how do I get my needs met? And when do I recognize, like, how I can do that in a way that still respects everybody else's needs and is kind of reasonable both ways?
Natasha Daniels 47:10
Exactly? Yeah, definitely. Let
KC Davis 47:12
me ask one more question as we close. We talked a little bit in our pre interview about kind of our responsibility as parents to right size our kids feelings, you know? And I think this is really true. Like our anxiety will feed our kids anxiety, right? And we kind of recognize this, like you we realize early, like sometimes our kids fall and they look at us, and if we go, oh my god, like they kind of do the same thing, right? And so while I don't want to be dismissive at the same time, I don't want to be kind of overly dramatic. I don't want my anxiety to be contagious. And so I'm curious if you have any sort of, like, ending thoughts on how, as a parent, can we best, like, right size our kids feelings and not participate in kind of the overblownness or the drama of it while not being dismissive.
Natasha Daniels 48:02
Yeah. I mean, I often talk about being a lovingly detached anchor, like, That's my ultimate goal, is to be to be supportive of my kids struggles in the moment without having smudges on my lens that are, that's my stuff, which is a lot of what we talked about today. You know, a smudge might be, oh, you're just like my dad. Or a smudge might be, oh my gosh, you're not gonna be able to function in college. So I might be living in the what ifs instead of the what is. Or I might be in my smudge might be, I'm gonna be late for work again, and I can't keep having this or this smudge might be, my parent didn't listen to me in this moment, and so I'm gonna be over identified. Or a smudge might be. I'm so empathetic or an empath, that your pain is my pain, and I'm feeling it. So as a parent, learn how to identify your smudges. We all have them. There's no way we have a clear lens when we're looking at our child in having a struggle, but being able to identify them separate out. What is my stuff versus their stuff? And then the thing I always ask myself as a parent, is, what do they need from me right now? You know? And that really helps put me back in the moment. It kind of grounds me. Sometimes I literally do grounding stuff, like let me feel my feet on the carpet, or let me feel my breath, or let me smell something. So I'm like, out of my head and more into my body. And then I just say, What's my role right now? What do they need for me and I get into my coaching, you know they need me to not be emotional, or they need me to just reflect back to them that this is hard for them right now, but I think that can help us anchor ourselves and be there for them with more intention than reaction.
KC Davis 49:36
I love that you use the word coaching, because I think we can learn a lot as parents from watching coaches, because there are good coaches and bad coaches. And bad coaches are not just the ones that are super gruff, super mean, super pushing, super challenging, not listening to having kids run exercises till they faint in the heat, but also you've. Bad coaches that are so concerned with everyone's just gonna have a good time that like they never win a game. And so I think when we when I think of like the good coaches my kids have been with, I have had coaches say to my kids, there's no crying in the pool. But that's also the coach that celebrates so much with them with their wins. It's also the coach that goes home and thinks about, how best can I accommodate, you know, my one kid's fear of water, and maybe let's try this, or let's try this, or let's try this. And yet, they have that balance of, I'm listening, I care, but also I have what you the perfect wording, right? Which is this kind of, like, detachment, where, like, I don't have to own your feelings. I'm separate from your feelings, and I have so much confidence in your ability to handle your feelings that I don't need to participate in your feelings. Yeah,
Natasha Daniels 50:52
which is really comforting for kids who are overwhelmed that we're an anchor and that we kind of reflect that, and we might have to do our own inner work to get that, and that's a daily practice, honestly, but it's a gift that we can give our kids.
KC Davis 51:05
Well, Natasha Daniels, you have been a delight. Can you give us any resources? Tell us about like, Where can we find your stuff or anything about you? And then, what would you recommend to kids, to parents who are thinking that maybe they're seeing some OCD in their kids?
Natasha Daniels 51:18
Well, you can find my work at at parenting survival.com, I have a podcast. I have YouTube videos for kids, teens and young adults, and courses and a community, so all sorts of stuff that you'll find over there. I have a OCD workbook for kids, eight to 12 that just came out, crushing OCD workbook for kids. And you know if you're concerned or you're like, I don't know if my child has OCD or just listening to this conversation. Now I'm not sure if it's anxiety or OCD. You can always get like a an assessment. I always you talk about no CD just because they are virtual and they're all over the world. So treat my ocd.com also a really good resource is the International OCD foundation@iocdf.org
KC Davis 51:59
Awesome. Thank you so much. Natasha,
Natasha Daniels 52:01
yeah, thanks for having me. You.