73: When You Have the Problem Dog with Jacqui Zakar

Are you at the end of your rope dealing with a dog who always seems to be the problem? I’ve been there, and I can say that there is hope! Today’s episode is a nice wrap-up as the final part of our series on dog training. Jacqui Zakar joins us from her home in Australia for today’s discussion about coping when your dog is “the problem.” Jacqui is a dog trainer I follow on TikTok, and I know she brings a lot of great advice and expertise to this important topic. Join us!

 Show Highlights:

●      Why Jacqui understands from personal experience what it’s like to have a reactive dog that’s labeled as “that dog”

●      What Jacqui identifies as the most common misconception around dog training

●      Why Jacqui wants parents to take a closer look at the relationship between their dog and their child

●      Why socialization for your puppy is NOT the only answer to behavior problems

●      Why we sometimes have to adjust our expectations of life with “this dog” because of their individuality

●      Why Jacqui starts her training by assessing how a dog deals with different types of pressure

●      Why training should focus on small steps and ONE thing at a time

●      What to do when you’re at the end of your rope with a problem dog

●      Why the best question to ask when getting a dog is, “Which dog will fit best into my lifestyle?”

●      What KC discovered about her dog through using aversive methods (with a trainer) and teaching boundaries

●      How to use a “welfare lens” in understanding long-term stress vs. a stressful moment in your dog’s training

 Resources and Links:

Connect with Jacqui Zakar: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

• Transcript

  KC 0:05

  Hello, you sentient ball of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, Casey Davis. And all the way from Australia today is Jackie, who is another dog trainer that I have followed, I think probably the first dog trader that I followed on tick tock, and this is sort of a nice little end cap to the two part dog series that I did recently. Oh, there's a nice wheeze there. I don't know if I have asthma. I didn't realize I was wheezing this morning, in case you heard that at home. Jackie, thank you so much for being here.

  Jacqui 0:35

  Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this so much. So

  KC 0:38

  I really loved the idea that you sent over when we messaged and you said, you know, I'd like to talk about like, the shame happens when you have the problem dog. And I thought that would be such a perfect note to end on. Because, you know, I talked to a lot of dog trainers we talked about, you know, how can you take care of a dog when you're struggling? And how can you you know, what kind of things should you train for. And then I talked with my dog trainer about how we approach dog training and, and I felt like, you know, I bet after that there are people that listened that looked over at their dog that they love that they just have not been able to train or that just came to them rough or has always had issues. They have that dog that is dog aggressive, or that dog that doesn't like people or that dog that bit someone or that dog that's been abused. And they're going well, that sounds good and nice. And so I'm curious, you know, why was that the topic you wanted to talk about? Probably

  Jacqui 1:34

  one of the reasons was, I think I'm a little bit of an anomaly when it comes to the dog training world. Because I actually started quite late in life. I'm 51. And I've been training for only eight years. So I've worked in a lot of industries, my background, a Bachelor of psych, I've worked in mental health, I've worked in emergency phone counseling and emergency care and stuff. I've also worked in the pharmaceutical industry and some other industries. But I got into dog training because I owned reactive dog be male, beautiful German shepherd with actually really lovely genetics. And I'm very aware that it was the things that I did that kind of created the reactivity. And it was only later that I realized that and my journey with trainers and learning about that is really what led me into dog training, even though I was already a bit of a hobbyist. But the more I learned about it, the more I realized there's just so much so many conflicting messages when you're trying to understand your dog and understand how to help them. But I also can really empathize with the experience that dog owners have. Whereas a lot of dog trainers have been like training since they come out of the womb, and they're just Daugman and like they're just really good with dogs and don't always understand what it's like to not just have a reactive dog, but be the owner that is at the park and your dogs pretty good off leash, and then all of a sudden they attack a dog. And then I actually remember a lady yelling at me once it was the second time my German Shepherd attacked a dog, and I thought he'd be okay. And I remember her yelling at me saying you're that German Shepherd owner that people are talking about. And I was like, oh my god, like, Oh, wow. And I loved my dog. But I realized people are talking about my dog and me and I'm that person at the park with the aggressive dog that's attacking other dogs. But I was also the owner that would yell Don't worry, he's friendly until the day he wasn't I was the owner that would step out of my front door afraid that somebody be walking their dog past the house, because I knew that he was going to lunge and he was going to bark, and so done a lot of the things that I see a lot of owners shamed for. And I understand I wasn't being irresponsible, I just didn't understand, I didn't really understand why it was happening, why this behavior had popped up all of a sudden, and I didn't really know how to help him and some of the trainers that we had some odd advice, some were really helpful. One became my first mentor. And he's probably one of the most successful rehab cases I did when I was a early trainer, I had an off leash reliable around other dogs to the point that dogs could approach him and sniff them. And I'm not saying that that's achievable, because he was just that dog that that was achievable. And I learned the strategies to help him do that. But whenever I see an owner struggling or whenever they're embarrassed, or whenever they're kind of apologizing to me for their dog's behavior, I tell them don't worry. I said, having a reactive dog having a fearful dog or just having a dog with behavioral issues will teach you more about dog behavior and dogs than any other dog you own. And it's like, I know it's a struggle and I know there's tears and I know there's days when you're like, oh my god, is this going to ever get any better but you learn so much and I really want kind of owners Dealing with that to know that you will learn so much. But you've got to be conscious of what you're learning with my dogs Ali, it was only after he passed away that I kind of looked back because it was such an emotional roller coaster that I looked back and I went, oh my god, like he was dog reactive, but he was so good with people. He was just beautiful with people with children with adults, never jumped on anyone was polite love to get affection from anyone was very gentle. But I was so hung up in the shame and always trying to do the right thing and always been hyper vigilant and everything, I was always concentrating on his bad points, and what the struggle was. And I missed a lot of the beauty of of who he was into after he passed away. So I really try and point out to clients like, yeah, you know, your dog struggling with this, and they're struggling with that. But wow, how cool is this? Like, let's really use this, you know what I mean? And it's like, what people find their strengths and build those up. And sometimes that can really help with their weaknesses. And I know you're coping with that a little bit, because I know your dog's a little bit sensitive and fearful.

  KC 6:12

  Yeah. And, you know, I had always was funny, we took my dog to Christmas, and I did my best, my family was great about it, you know, telling them, okay, don't I'm gonna let the dog out, please don't touch the dog, please ignore the dog, let her come to you. She does not like the top of her head pet. And overall, everybody was really, really respectful of that. And to the degree that people, you know, tried to pet her or tried to reach a little too. It was like very human behavior. Like she's an adorable dog, you know, extent that people are doing the best they can. And you know, at one point, somebody tried to pet her reach for it. She'd like, you know, coward back and they were like, gosh, you know, do you think she was abused. And I would have said the exact same thing before I had her. But like, I got her eight weeks from the woman who was fostering her and the siblings. And like, I know, she was not abused. And I don't think I appreciated that. Just like people, dogs have temperaments. Like, they're not blank slates of perfectly balanced emotional behavior, you know, they have temperament, you can be nervous by temperament. And, you know, when we found that out, when we got her, you know, I was so grateful for your work, because I had learned enough about dog behavior to start to recognize that she was a nervous dog. Because the way she was showing us at as a tiny puppy could have so easily been ignored. Because she's kind of a fawn girl, you know, she's okay, I'll go on this walk. But I'm gonna look around the whole time, and I'm going to then get scared of what to go home. And like, it's easy to see how that stuff could have turned into some dangerous reactivity when she hits 100 pounds, right. But there is this shame of like, Oh, I've done the wrong thing, or I didn't know what I was looking for. And it sounds like your experience was so important. Because one of the things that I remarked on one of my other episodes to somebody was, you know, sometimes the disconnect between the average dog owner, and the trainer that they're working with, is that the trainers whole life is dogs, and they can accomplish with a dog, you know, as a trainer, is completely based on how interested they are, how much time they have, how much passion they have, how much you know, whereas it doesn't matter that you can train a dog really well, right, because as the average dog owner, I have two children, I have a career, I have a family, I have a house, I have a cat I have. So like, one of the things that I appreciate about My trainer was he was able to say like, you know, here's the things you can do as you go along the day, and the behavior I want you to reward as you see it. But as far as like structured training, it was like five minutes a day, you know, maybe 20 minutes when we got up to some other activities. But there's kind of this disconnect of, I think sometimes you forget what it's like to just be an average dog owner and what you're capable of and what it feels like. And so do you think that that helped you a lot that you're so you really remember that

  Jacqui 9:16

  100% Because I love geeking out on theory and you know, training concepts and I have to be careful not to over explain myself to clients sometimes because my ADHD isn't so hyperactive, but the activity at that site probably shows up when I'm talking about dogs. So I've got to really check myself because I'll go off on tangents. And when I meet clients who I kind of will profile as hobbyists like they really like training their dog, they're teaching them everything. And I usually say you're doing way too much. I will say to them in another session, I said we really need to stay on topic because I know you're into it. And you're going to ask me questions just outside of what we're talking about. And we'll be here for four hours and I have two other clients I have to say So yes, I love talking about it. But there's so many things you touched on that I could talk about that I'll go off on those tangents. But the first thing you mentioned, which I think is such a common misconception is it's not in, it's not all in how you raise them. And you hear that a lot like, and I see shame on social media with that, when I post videos of body language around children, those videos get a lot of hate, like they get a lot of trolls, which you wouldn't think they would. It's like I'm trying to educate on how to keep children safe. And like, let's look at the dog's body language, I

  KC 10:31

  just want explain to the audience that's listening. These are the videos. And this is the first content, I found a view but you often will put up videos that you find online of people who are videotaping like their children with their dog. And it's usually the people, the parent thinking like, Oh, what a sweet moment, my kids hugging my dog, look how protective My dog is on my child. And you will sort of give commentary about like, Okay, here's what this dog's body language is actually saying. And here's how this is going to potentially be a dangerous interaction. Exactly.

  Jacqui 10:59

  And you've always got the nice music over the top and everything and the comments like almost invariably will be all they're going to be best friends for life, big protector, like dogs love children. And I think I've been called Karen on those videos more times than any other videos that it's not that I want to jump into people's videos, I don't want to shame the owners. And I always make that clear, I'm not trying to shame this parent, because you don't know what you don't know. And dog's body language. And behavior isn't as easy to read as people think like the subtleties are very easy to miss. So my intention is always like, this video could potentially save a child from being bitten. And if I can just plant plant a seed in a few people's heads, but usually they go quite well. And they usually, like performed quite well. And I would make a lot more of them if I didn't get so much from them. Because after a few days, I'll start getting the comments of a you don't know what you're talking about, that dog will die for that child, like I've grown up with 25 bully breeds, and they will walk my child to school every day, like the things that people say, and everybody wants to think they love their dog, they know their dog, and the defensiveness and the inability for people to just like question, just question what they might be seeing for a moment. So yet anyway, I'm going off on tangents. But that's why I don't post many of those. But I do think they're important. And I'm trying to find a way I'd love to create an ebook or even a free online course to provide the parents with this is what to look out for. This is what to train, this is how you can avoid it. But I can't use those videos, obviously. So I'm trying to figure out a way to do it. But to get back to what you're saying. A lot of the things that they'll say in those comments are, it's all how you raise them, this parents like doesn't know what they're doing. If you train a dog, right and raise it right, you'll never have any problems. But it's not in all how you raise them, the dog that you have in front of you as a combination of genetics, breed, and environment and how those things interact with each other. So and you would have seen that in your own dog have you see fear or aggression in a very young puppy, like a puppy that's younger than about four months, that's genetic, unless there's been something very specific that's happened in the letter that's using genetic fear. So that can go a couple of ways. But the reality is, you're probably always going to have a sensitive dog, that what you need to be able to do is kind of recognize it, and just make that dog the best that they can be, I've got quite an anxious dog. And she's confident for who she is that only because I knew she was an anxious dog. Because if you put your dog in situations, by exposing them to too much or overwhelming them, or trying to tell them to just get through it, you could create real problems, which is what I did with my own dog.

  KC 13:56

  And you could do it even trying to do all the right things. Because before I started working with a trainer one on one, I was just following a lot of trainers online. And one of the things that I heard over and over and over was, it's so important to socialize your puppy. It's so important. There's this period of this developmental period that if like you don't get your puppy out into the world during that period, they're going to be a fearful dog. And like so here I have this puppy, you already seems a little fearful, and we're smack in the middle of that. And so the first thing I did that first week was like, take her out to a couple of places. And I didn't understand enough of the nuance of number one, how slow that needed to be. So I'm just like going into Home Depot and letting her watch stuff and you know, now I can look back at those videos and see like, Oh, she was pretty frightened during that. And then the other part of it, you know, when I finally got with the trainer who said like listen, yes, it's true that like there's that period and if you have a dog that is not already nervous that exposure can be really beneficial if you do it really slow, but it's not like if you don't socialize the dog during that period, you can never social Eyes them and with your dog, you know, I really believe that the better approach is to really focus on some confidence building in the home. And then we will do a very slow rollout later, like we will get her to a place where she can go on walks and things but don't feel because I really did feel like Oh, my God all is lost if I don't get my puppy out and about during this one specific period of time. So

  Jacqui 15:25

  I actually saw that post that you put up about that. And I appreciated seeing that post because, look, I'm one of those trainers that harps on about what socialization is and the critical period and everything. And I do try and talk about the nuances not just throw these things at your dog and go, Hey, listen, here's that. And here's this is how you do it. Like, unfortunately, I don't know what it's like in the States. But here a lot of the puppy schools, they're not run by trainers or behavior experts, they usually kind of vet clinics and the receptionist's will run them and no hate to them. I'm sure a lot of them are fine. Their message is usually you've got to expose your dog to 100 dogs at 100 people before they're six months old. And now we'll move on to let's talk about play. It's like no, no, no, it's more important than the exposures themselves is how you do it, I always send and I can I can recommend a checklist. And I'm going to be one sent it to you a checklist that I always send to anybody who asked me about puppy socialization by a very well known and loved behaviors to pass away a few years ago by the name of Dr. Sophia Yin. And she has a socialization checklist, which you can find online. It's a free PDF. And it's just a fantastic resource. But it talks about it lists all the types of things your puppy really needs to be exposed to. But she also discusses how to do it. And she's got a little checklist of the key is you want your dog to be calm, and you really want to monitor their body language and you want to see curiosity, you want to see them using their nose and looking at you want to see their back legs moving. If you don't see a puppy his back leg moving and they're stretching, that's fear, because they're trying to hold space because they might need to reverse

  KC 17:07

  that is so helpful to know like, and it reminds me of the the videos about the dog and kids behavior because those were so helpful to me. And then people also often post the ones where they talk about like, here's a dog that's being pet by an owner and the dog does not want to be pet here's the appeasement licking and here's their yawning, they're doing this. And I've seen so many of those that I remember at one point being like, can someone post what to look like? Because I don't know what it's supposed to. I mean, because my dog, you know, will do Wei li all the time, whether you can see the whites of her eyes, and I'm like, Okay, well, she's kind of a nervous dog. But if she also just a dog that has eyes like that same with my kids, you know, it was really helpful when I started posted some videos and I kind of like blurred out my kids face of like, okay, here's how it's coming with, like the kid dog interactions. And to get that feedback of like, this is the body language that we need. And I feel like seeing that like as much as it's really helpful to see like, okay, these are sort of like the warning signs that a dog is uncomfortable, because it's kind of like an art and a science like to be able to read that seeing those examples of if you ever do a course, like I hope you'll include both because it was so helpful to see like, oh, that's what it looks like. And I think that if I had had that information that you're talking about where it's like, okay, when you socialize your dog, here's what you need to see, because I never saw curiosity in my puppy when we went out. That's awesome. Yeah, I want to go back to this idea of you know, someone who's listening, then they've got the problem thought they're like, Okay, well, I'm past that already messed that up, right, I've got this problem dog, or maybe you just rescued a dog. And, you know, they come with some issues, that it's a very stressful environment to be in a shelter for any period of time. Or maybe they were rescued from a home that was stressful. And I really appreciated what you said about you know, it's not, you know, a dog just like a person. Like, they might just have issues the rest of their life. And it doesn't mean that we can't find the happiest life that they can live because there is like a shame of oh, if I had because I've seen the comments like train your dog, like if you had a better just because a dog's lunging on a leash. Right? That's, that's why they're on a leash because I know they're gonna lunge at you. And I remember one time I was curious about like, dog training, and there was like this online test about dog trainers have to take and I took it just for shits and giggles. And one of the questions really stood out to me, and it was like, okay, so you go to someone's house, and they have adopted this dog, and they tell you, you know, that they really want to turn the dog into a therapy animal that they can take into hospitals to visit the patients and you go and you observe that the dog is a very nervous dog. What do you do and like the it was like ABCDE right? And the first four options were like different training approaches. It was like get the dog out as much as possible so that you can like social Is it two things Number two, take a very slow approach of things in the home that you can set up. So it's like different, right? And then the last option was inform the owner that this might not be the dog for that job, that like, the owner might just have to readjust their expectations for this dog. And it was such a powerful question, because I was like, you know, people don't talk enough about that, like, you know, you have this dream of what you want your life with your dog to look like, Oh, we're gonna go jogging together, I'm going to take the dog everywhere, the dogs going to have perfect recall. And we're going to be that cool couple at the park with the dog off leash, because it comes every time I'm going to have that dog that while I'm walking down the street, I can say down and it goes down and it impresses all my friends, I'm going to have that dog that you know, is going to be an emotional support animal to me and is going to do this or do that I'm going to have the dog that, you know, like you have all these expectations of what you want your life with that dog to look like. And I don't feel like enough trainers talk about when you meet your dog that like they are their own little person slash animal. And like sometimes we have to adjust our expectations when we have a fearful dog or a reactive dogs.

  Jacqui 21:13

  Exactly, because you can't squeeze them into that little box that you want to fit them into. They are individuals and they do have their quirks and they do have their personality traits. And another big misconception is if all if you get a German Shepherd, they're going to be a big confident protector. No, I've seen some really fearful championship. It's like I've seen some Border Collies that don't want to chase things they're afraid of sheet like that's there's a very well known content creator in Australia with the red healer, I think we don't really get the red healers in the States. And when either cat or dog and he's afraid of cattle, and I think it's just hilarious like, people want to see breed, and they want to think if you teach this dog this, it will be able to do it. And if you can't teach them that, then it must be your fault. But it's not I think you and my we just got a chihuahua puppy a few months ago, because my daughter is 11. And it's like her first puppy. And I've kept saying to her, like, you know, we have to wait and see who he is. And then we're gonna decide what it does he want to do that sport, does he want to do that activity? Will he need this kind of training? Like who is he? And I think we need to think about let's get to know our dog like, who are they? What are they like? How do they respond? And one of the things that I'm always doing in my first sessions, or before the first sessions even is I'm assessing how dogs deal with pressure, like you want to see how does the dog deal with people in their space. So spatial pressure, just people dogs things in this space? How does a dog deal with just lots of people or being spoken to or being asked to do things, which is social pressure, environmental pressure, like it will tell you a lot about a dog like because how social a dog with humans or dogs is actually quite genetic, like you don't go off to the dog park and create a social dog. In some cases, that's probably the worst thing you could do with a lot of dogs. So many dogs, that dog park sitting there like, Please get me out of here. I don't want to be here. Like I think people can learn to read their dogs and find out who they are rather than almost feeling bad themselves that they're not creating the dog that they dreamed of. So that must be their fault. I forget about that. I think everybody wants to be doing something, taking their dog to the park, training them taking them to daycare doing all this stuff, they really don't need a lot of this stuff. They need some basic kind of things to be a fulfilled dog. But whenever I start working with a client who's got a nervous dog or an aggressive dog, because most of what I'm doing is behavioral issues. Phase one of training is decompression. We're not putting any pressure on this dog, forget about the park, I don't want you taking your dog around people, they don't need to see dogs, I want your dog to just have their nervous system just settle down, just be calm. You know what I mean? Then you're going to kind of put them in a state where they can learn something. And we can it's almost like if you remove stress and you remove pressure, because a lot of dogs are dealing with stresses all day long. And it's not their fault, but a lot of owners are thinking oh my dog's reactive to dogs. So I better show them more dogs. I got to get them used to dogs, I got to put them around dogs. And I kind of like if you're a counselor or a therapist, when you're dealing with somebody with substance abuse issues. You're not going to tell them just go to the pub just be around lots of people around lots of really drunk people and get used to it you'll feel much better that will help you get over your substance abuse issue. It's not it's going to put you on hyper like because first we need to like settle your nervous system and remove everything that's sensitizing you and stressing you out. Then we need to teach you just like therapy. Some strategies like some breathing exercises like it Observe your thoughts.

  KC 25:01

  And we have to do those things in safe environments first, that's one of the big things that I learned was like safe environments first. And you know, being a mom has given me some interesting insight too, I feel like like, I've got two kids, they're three and five, you know, and like, this is true of any kids. But it's especially true if you have neurodivergent kids where like, you learn that, okay, I could do eight things in a day. And it's no big deal. But like, my children can do one thing that seems simple, they can go to a birthday party, they can go to school, they can go to one thing, and then you see that ripple in their behavior all day long, they're exhausted, or they crash and burn, or they have a meltdown. And it's like, wow, that thing seems really simple to me, a human being that's been alive for 37 years with a completely different neuro type. But for them, the energy expenditure to do that one thing, like, that's all they needed to handle today, and I feel like when I was trying to understand my dog, that like helped me because like, we just put in a dog door, and she's learning how to use the dog door. But she's also you can tell frightened of the noise that it makes. And I mean, she's not like cowering in the corner, but like, we just know that like, okay, she, it's gonna take her a long time to get used to that and to associate that with something positive. But like, she can't do anything else that like for several days, we don't need to be doing training, we don't need to be going out. We don't need to be like, you know, her nerves. Like that's it like that really is enough of a challenge for her nervous system and her skills and her whatever is just being around that dog door. Yeah, 100%.

  Jacqui 26:42

  And I think that's really key. When you're trying to train anything, it's like, do as little as possible, as much as you need, but end on a high, like find that peak, where you can see they're like, I love this, there's a saying, I think it's trying to buy that pet Stewart in Australia, I think he might have coined it. If I've got it wrong. I apologize to the trainer who coined it, but they say no more, one more time when you're training, like, and I always recommend to five minute training sessions a day. And if you're nailing it, and you're busy, and it's a minute, and sometimes I'll walk outside with my dog, I'll do two repetitions. And I'm like, That is awesome. Yes, here's your meal, like find that rep where they're the best. Because when you see your dog do something, and they overcome something or they overcome a challenge, it's natural to go, oh my god, that's amazing. Let's do it again. And then you try to do it again. And it's not so good. And you're like, Ah, I just want to get that really good rep again, and then your dog gets frustrated and you get frustrated and the last experience of that behavior, that thing they're learning was negative. So it's really, really hard to see something really good and feel that elation and get that dopamine and go finished, because that will be the experience on and on a height. So work smarter, not harder. I've had so many clients that are training 45 minutes an hour, and they're walking their dog for an hour and a half and their dog goes to doggy daycare, and they go to the dog park and they do all this stuff. And I'm like we are cutting 80% of that out because I think what a lot of people miss is or let me break down I think for a dog to be fulfilled. They need mental exercise. You can do that through training. And you can do that like scent games, whatever physical exercise, obviously they need play, they need freedom to be a dog to just exhibit natural behaviors put their nose down, explore activate that seeking system, but they also need rest. And the thing with dogs is you need to teach a lot of dogs how to rest I own a military working line Belgian Malinois, who comes from military lines. And a lot of people say you can't have them as pets because they're nuts. And she's nuts. But in the most beautiful way, I had to teach her how to relax. I had to train her and off switch. And she does it very, very well because I have a small child myself, and I can't have a crazy working on Belgian Malinois running around the house. But I think if owners can give themselves a break and realize that you don't need to be walking training stimulating lane, we're talking to your dog 24 hours a day, you'd probably cut about at least half if not more time out of your day that you're stressing about fulfilling your dog and your dog is going to be happier. for it. It's just be clearer, know how to do these things to fulfill them work smarter, not harder. But less is more I too, sometimes I train my dog for one minute. So when I take it, I took it to the park this afternoon and we were there for 15 minutes. We sat down for a while I threw the ball a few times. She slipped around. She went home and she is the highest energy breed on the planet. Arguably That's all she needs. And we played a couple of times today. That's it. That's all in everybody's.

  KC 29:56

  So let me ask you this. This is where I want to end is with this little scenario. Do I often will come across people that have a dog that is difficult, you know, usually on social media, you just kind of flipping through, and I've known a couple. And they end up kind of like turning their world in knots to keep this dog in their home because they love the dog. So we're talking, okay, I have a dog that can't ever see my other dog. And so I have to keep this one and this one in that house. And this one and this one, I have a dog that has been someone and now it can't be around my kids. And so we do the kids have to be here, the dog has to be there. I have a dog that can't stand people. And so I have to have a really elaborate, you know, thing where if the postman comes, or I have a dog that has separation anxiety, that's so severe, I cannot leave my house without them for a while I belong to a Facebook group of separation anxiety, because my dog had a little bit of it, but it was like, for three years, I haven't gone anywhere, you know. And so there's this part of me that goes, get rid of this dog, like, what are you doing? Nothing is worth this, you know what I mean? But I as I sort of looked through, and I watched people, because, you know, when I started looking at things for nervous dogs, I started seeing all these things. I feel like there's almost too, and this is an overgeneralization. But there was like two kinds of people, there was somebody that, you know, what they're really looking for both of them are really looking for permission. But it was like, about half of them seemed like they really wanted permission for someone to say like, it's okay, if this is not working, like if this dog is not working in your home, if like, if you're miserable, if you can't live a normal life, like it's okay for you to find this dog somewhere else, they're going to be happy and you're going to be happy or whatever. But then of the other half seemed like what they were looking for was permission. That like, it's okay, if you love your dog, and you want to keep your dog and yeah, you've got to do a song and dance about, you know, all these things. But like, if you love your dog, and you know, what they were struggling with was people like me, and that judgment of just get rid of the dog. I'm curious, like, how do you assess like, kind of where an owner is when they contact you? And they're in that kind of spot? And like, what do you say to people when you know, you can tell? Okay, I've got the problem dog that like people are recommending I do something with or, you know, okay, I have the problem dog that I feel like I have to go to the bitter end

  Jacqui 32:19

  here. Yeah, that's I mean, obviously, there's so much nuance in that, because you've got different trainers, and what methods and all that kind of stuff, which is a whole different conversation. But if it's somebody that's really tried a lot, or they're really struggling, or if it really isn't just a good fit. And I mean, and you nailed a couple of the scenarios that can really be that situation, which is a multi household fighting, when you've got triggers in your house, like the issue is in your house, it's not when you walk out the door, and this door or your border collie wants to chase cars, you know, the issue is in your house, that's incredibly stressful. And I think once dogs have had a few too many fights, they can create a grudge, the relationship between the dogs can be damaged to the point where you can't you can't change it, it's going to be management, or one of those dogs is going to have to leave the home, I think as a trainer, I never go into it thinking oh, they're going to have to get rid of this dog, I'm going to have to talk them into it. Like if I've had some situations where I'm like, this is not going to end well in less time manage these two dogs, like every moment of the day could be the moment where one of them kills the other one. And I'll have some pretty hard conversations with clients about that. But I do it in a very non judgmental way. And I think as I talk to them, you just start to understand where they're at. You can tell I'm a big believer in you have options, I'm if there's one thing I'll give myself credit for is I would never try and squeeze a dog into an ideology. Like you've got to tailor to the dogs in front of you. And something I've done in my career is I've really tried to understand different methods, I can give you 100% force free positive reinforcement program, and I'm good at it. I can also do it the other way where we mix like that. I'll pretty much lay it out for clients. Once we've done the assessment, I'll be like, Look, this is what I see. This is the personality of the dogs. This is your lifestyle. And rather than say, are you willing to put in this much time and management every day for your dogs? I'll tell them look, you're really busy. You know, this is really stressful, you've got small children, you cannot be focused on everything all day. So that means you're going to have a lot of management to keep these dogs in the home and I'll say to them, you can do it but this is what you're going to need to consider and these are the factors you're going to have to think about or this is the other option, which is you could take the pressure off yourself and rehome this dog or rehome that dog is stressed the dogs are under the stress that you're under which the dogs pick up on to I said you don't need to feel guilty about making that choice because the reality is the dog would probably be more fulfilled and happy as everybody would be if you made that decision. And you can give yourself a pat on the back that that was a tough choice to make, but you did it for everybody involved. But I will also say, especially when it comes to children, when I can see it serious or saved, I will say to them, the reality is you do need to have management in place so that every moment you have to assume that this will be that moment, this will be that moment where that child gets bitten, what's your strategy, sometimes I'll say to clients, if I have a crystal ball, and I can tell you that tomorrow, that dog is going to be in the kitchen because the baby gate was left open, and the toddler is going to come running in and you've got food in your hand, and the dog is gonna bite the child for reach over the bed or whatever it is, I've got a crystal ball, I can see that is going to happen. And you're going to ring me and say, Oh my God, I wish I could go back and change it. I wish I'd had the dog in the crate. I'm like, I can see that. And I'm giving you an opportunity to go back in time. We're back in time, what's your strategy? And the thing is you have to plan every single day like this is my crystal ball moment. And I've come back in time, depending on the situation, I guess that's pretty harsh and extreme in some ways. But I think and I did this with my mental health clients, when I've worked with quite severely mentally ill people at times, sometimes we want to avoid those really hard scenarios, we want to think oh, never, he'd never do that, or that won't happen, that's not going to happen. And that in some ways that makes it worse, because you're bubbling under the surface. You just don't want to acknowledge it that that could happen. And I did that with my clients. I'm like, let's just spend three minutes and we're going to talk about it. What is the worst case scenario, everything goes wrong? What is it and we talk about it? And I'm like, Okay, we've done that. Now, what's our plan? So that doesn't happen? Because it's now you've got a strategy. Now you can plan for something because you've really thought about it. And if you plan for it, and you think Oh, my God, that happening? It could really happen, then I think you've made the decision, you know, and I don't think it's so scary because you've gone there and you realize it's better for you for your children, potentially, and for the dog. But for a lot of people they're like, Well, no, I think I can manage that. I think that's doable. And it won't necessarily be that serious. But yeah, so I think as a trainer, I think it's kind of important to take them there. I think if you're a trainer that's like oh no, you don't have to rehome them, you can do it. You just need to do another five sessions. Or you know, I mean, Mike, the first dog I ever owned when I was 21 years old was a Great Dane, I didn't have a driver's license, I didn't have a car. And I lived in the fifth floor apartment. And I've got a Great Dane. I don't know what I was thinking I rehome that dog. And I don't feel guilty about it, because she went to a place with an older couple that had had great danes all their life, and they lived on a farm. So whenever somebody shames somebody for rehome in them, like how did you get rid of your dog? Like, you know, that's your family. It's like no, the dogs happier. I'm happier. Dogs are very adaptable. It's like if I came to your house, and I was the only person that fit your dog for a week and play with your dog, your dogs coming home with me. Right, very adaptable.

  KC 38:17

  Well, it does seem like you know, the risk factor for harm is like a really big component because it is a different if you know when you're talking about like, you want to present the client with the worst case scenario, because the worst case scenario of my child gets bitten in the face is a totally different situation then, okay, worst case scenario, I don't go anywhere without my dog or I don't leave for more than 10 minutes, or I don't have friends over at my home. And that I think has gives people the opportunity to go, Okay, what kind of lifestyle do I have? Because some people go well, I don't leave my house. Anyways, I work from home. And you know, I'm not very social. And this dog is my life. And I want to bend over backwards. I want to turn myself and my lifestyle into pretzels, so that I can you know, live with this dog. And that seems like the kind of person that we were talking about the beginning where we said, you know, sometimes you've got the difficult dog, and sometimes it just came pre loaded that way. Like that's just their temperament. Sometimes you did the best you can and you don't you know, you're not a professional dog trainer. So maybe you missed a couple of things or okay, if you could go back in time, but you can't here you are. And there's no need to feel shame about not having, you know, the perfectly trained dog. Exactly.

  Jacqui 39:35

  But other people do the best that they can I think you don't know what you don't know. I think it's if you are in that situation and you do make the choice to rehome your dog because it is negatively impacting your life and it doesn't have to be the most dramatic situation of your child's at risk. Like that's the nuance of dogs and people in relationships. Like there's so much variability. I think if you do that, and you don't learn ProNet experience and you get another Border Collie, because you wanted it to be like this and you don't bother to find out about how to source, a well bred genetically sound Border Collie or know how to look at the puppies or don't mind I've got clients that deliberately go and get the oldest senior dog at the rescue center because they have the time and the resources that it doesn't matter what issues that dog has. So I think if you don't learn from it, and you still want that perfect dog, then yeah, like, you need a talking to dogs aren't there's this Disney dog myth that dogs are loving, and they'll be perfect. And that will protect your children and they'll you know, all of this stuff, I think the best thing people can learn as dogs are individuals, and they also respond to the environment. They're in like a lot of people and I don't want to go over time, but a lot of people will say to me, what's a good breed for a child? Like what's a child friendly breed? And I say that is the wrong question. Because it's which dog will fit into my lifestyle, and, you know, be a good breed for my lifestyle, because you can get German Shepherd people say protective of children within not no dogs are protective of children. But if you work all day, and you've got a courtyard, and you don't have the time to put in training for a German Shepherd and the exercise, then it doesn't matter how much people say that that breed is good with children, that breed is not going to be good with your child because it's going to be frustrated and it's going to be pent up and it's going to be you know, that threshold is going to be low. So I think people need to think about the dog coming into their life and their lifestyle rather than the dog they want and squeezing it in. And if you don't

  KC 41:53

  like the answer is a well balanced dog like the best dog for a child is a well balanced dog and who what kind of dog can you facilitate being well balanced? Yeah,

  Jacqui 42:02

  happy I mean, in like we've talked about got to be able to assess that dog and be prepared for the fact that you are getting an individual even if you get a well bred dog genetics aren't guaranteed. You know what I mean? My Belgian Malinois Hallo was incredibly well bred, purpose bred. She's very sensitive, she's very sensitive genetically. So that means that I have to be careful that I don't put too much pressure on her. But apart from that, she's pretty sound but there are things I have to adapt to allow for that. I've got to make sure that new people don't rush into her space and lean over her and crowd her because she's a Belgian Malinois. And she's sensitive. And that's a good combination when they feel threatened. Not that she's ever bitten anyone or anything, but she hasn't bitten anyone because I'm conscious of that. I knew what I was getting. But I had to wait and see, like, how do I need to tweak what I'm doing in my lifestyle? And if there's any major issues, I have to assess, can I fix this? And can I find professionals that have the knowledge to help me with this, and we will assess as we move forward together, like I would never walk into a household and say, yep, we're going to fix this, because it's the owners capabilities, skill, resources, knowledge, motivation to even do it. And I don't judge owners that they're like, Look, I'm not really that into training, as long as they could do the bare minimum. Great. So I'm assessing how much they can do. But if I feel like this is not a good fit, I'll be like, I'll never try and talk somebody into giving their dog away. But I want them to understand what it will take, like, and can you do that? The good news is, it's usually less time than people think it's just you've got to be more strategic in what you do. That's what it comes down to.

  KC 43:47

  Well, and I'll end with this. I feel like we got really lucky with our puppy. She's a mutt, but she's 50%. One breed. So there was at least a little bit of something you could research about. And she was fostered in a home from litter. So it's like, okay, at least I know, there's not, too, you know, there's not going to be like a lot of shelter, trauma or anything like that. And, you know, she ended up having a nervous temperament. But what's been funny is that it's worked. Like, as I look back, I'm grateful that, you know, she doesn't have a super high prey drive. And she's a little nervous. And obviously, you know, nervousness can turn into reactivity and things like that. So we're managing the nervousness, but it's interesting because like, I have a cat, and every time and the dog and the cat live on separate sides of the playpen, but every time they've come in contact, you know, the cat gets big, the dog runs away. And, you know, I also have a young child that runs to stem and what's been interesting is looking back and going, you know, like, we actually are a pretty good household. For a dog that's a little nervous, like we can be predictable. We can be really loving. We have a huge yard for exercise without having to go to parks, we can do a playpen space. As you know, it would actually not work for us to have a dog that chases the cat or that chases the child. And we still had to. I mean, she's got a lot of hurting dogs. So we've still had to train her not to hurt and chase. We're actually we've taught her how she's allowed to hurt and chase exactly, because they love it. I mean, at first we were outlays Chase, but like, the child runs to the dog and then runs away and goes chase me chase me. So we had to teach them, okay, you are allowed to chase but you're not allowed to make contact, right? There needs to be space between you. But it's been interesting, as I've listened to you talk to go, you know, there is no perfect dog. And sometimes it's truly like luck of the draw. Like we could be doing all the right things. But if we had ended up with a dog whose nervousness or reactivity manifested differently, or who had a really high prey drive, we might be in a completely different situation right now. And people would not be looking at me going, Wow, what a great trade way she's trained her dog like so much of it is just luck and temperament and chance. And sometimes you do all the right things, and your dog is still struggling.

  Jacqui 46:08

  So you really fired tick tock up when you got, you got your dog trainers were taught. I hate to say I found it so entertaining, because I knew I knew how it was. And I loved that. You knew what you were talking about. And you wouldn't allow to be pushed over by the naysayers that came for you when all your stuff blew up. And I think you've heard a lot of respect with a lot of the trainers on Tik Tok, we talk about you all the time.

  KC 46:41

  Well, it's interesting, because people really didn't like that I was using some aversive methods with our dog. And a lot of people even said like, this is a nervous dog. Like why on earth would you use an aversive method with a dog that's obviously going to have a big reaction to it. And we worked really hard with finding the right level of pressure and aversion that didn't send her into like a total fight or flight. But here's what I found. When I would talk to people that work, like philosophically against aversives. The only way that they had to teach a dog not to do something was that sort of like, oh, teach them the opposite. So if you don't want the dog to jump on people, you have to teach them to let go sit down on a mat and reward them for that. And so what that would end up doing for our dog because like the couple of times we tried that, because she's already nervous, and she wants to please so badly. It turned her into this like very hyper vigilance. I can't not look at you, am I doing it? Right? Because she was becoming more high strong. When in every situation, there was this one, yeah, this one prescribed behavior that you need to be doing. Whereas when I could use an aversive to teach, not that behavior, not just Yes, this one so that you can't do anything else. But it was like not that behavior, you can do anything else. And she learned very quickly because aversive methods teach pretty quickly. Oh, I can't jump but I can literally do anything else. So she actually got to relax, because it wasn't this. Am I doing it? Right? Am I doing? It was like no, no, as soon as she got the clarity,

  Jacqui 48:17

  because you gave her degrees of freedom. So she does better

  KC 48:22

  and is more well balanced, when all she has to like learn is okay. Not that because she knows and she gets rewarded for doing literally anything else. And I think that that has made her a lot more relaxed. And people always asked like, Oh, my God, how did you make her so great around your children. And I'm like, I'm not going to tell you because I get hate mail for it. But it was exactly.

  Jacqui 48:46

  Your teaching boundaries and boundaries brings clarity. And like you say, she can predict the outcomes of situations. And the last thing you want when you're anxious is to not know what's happening next. So if you know this equals this, but I can do anything else, I don't have to do anything else, but I can do anything else, you're actually given her freedom, you know, and predictability and that's good for anxiety.

  KC 49:12

  And it kind of reminded me of sleep training. Like I'm very much an attachment parent, but I sleep trained and people hate that. And but one of the things that comes up in that is like that was one week of stress, like one week of stress is not going to counteract every other good thing. And that was the other thing was like okay, yeah, you know what, you're right. I sprayed my dog in the face twice with watered down vinegar water when she got too close to my kid when she got too close to their face. But there was 99% Positive reinforcement about all these other things. And was that a hard day for her? Yes, but it was literally one day. It literally took two times for her to get complete clarity and ever since then she has been able to play with our kids and we still supervise and now Are we just reward to reinforce, you know, when she lays down or when she's good and when she's this, but it's like, ultimately, I feel like I did the Kinder thing in the long run. Exactly.

  Jacqui 50:09

  It's my treasures. For long term welfare. I think a lot of trainers are very in the moment. And we cannot cause stress to an animal in the moment. But if asked, not causing stress in that moment means the environment and the situation's they're put on causes them stress long term, that's not welfare. That's not good welfare, I think it comes down to, but we caused it. But training isn't. I mean, it is about science. But it's not so much about science, it's not so much about methods, it's about cost benefit of what you're doing. In that situation. If you didn't have small children, and you lived in a house, you probably wouldn't need to use a spray bottle to stop your dog from doing something when the cost of not doing that could be a child gets injured, I'm sorry. But momentary discomfort from the dog for the dog is better than potential discomfort for my child, and everybody lives a happier life. I mean, that's, I could talk about that for three hours. And I know that you've been pretty deep with that with trainers and socials. But that's really what it comes down to. And I'm okay what trying to say the size doesn't say otherwise.

  KC 51:17

  And just for clarity for the audience, because I don't want anyone to like run off and be like, Great, I'm gonna start spraying my dog, I worked with a trainer. And I literally, it was like a one hour session and a four page document that I had to learn like all the ins and outs of how we were going to use reversals without causing it to backfire. Because that can happen. I'm glad

  Jacqui 51:36

  you said that. Because that is incredibly important. It's not you don't want to teach with a versus you want to use them very carefully and strategically. And you do need to use them with a trainer because nobody is going to do it properly if they're not working with a trainer. So that's really

  KC 51:49

  important. Because the risk is you don't want the dog to associate your child with this aversive experience. And there's a lot of tap dancing, you have to do. Oh

  Jacqui 52:01

  yeah, you got to know what you're doing for sure. And that's not to say that you should run off and find a compulsion trainer that's not going to bring throw tanks to your house. No, no, you want positive reinforcement based trainers that will potentially use it versus if they think it might be beneficial to your situation and they can demonstrate well adjusted dogs you know, in their clientele. Okay,

  KC 52:23

  well we ran up over time which I knew we were going to do because I knew that if you know don't be sorry it's me too. I know waiting time I get with somebody else that has ADHD I'm like yeah, we're gonna go along today especially if it's like something we both are interested in but Jackie tell people where they can find you online if they want to follow you

  Jacqui 52:40

  so I'm on tick tock Instagram and Facebook I think I'm just dog since on tick tock but I'm dog sense training and behavior. WW dot dog sense.com.au in Australia, but yeah, I do online and I do in person as well. But your socials are pretty easy to find me,

  KC 53:01

  I think. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time today.

  Jacqui 53:05

  Listen, thank you so much. I'm gonna be so many content ideas. I'm going to have to start making some videos tomorrow.

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai