74: Boundary Stories, Part 1: The Dad I Didn’t Cut Off
The thing about boundaries is that they are much more complex than most people assume. The world of boundary-setting is rarely colored with clearly defined black-and-white choices. Today’s episode is a conversation with my friend Bethany about her relationship with her father and how she handled boundaries in ways that felt authentic to her. We are discussing how boundaries come into play in the relationships we have and the decision-making process we use. Join us to learn more!
Show Highlights:
● A little background on Bethany’s dad, their relationship, and how she grew up not feeling wanted and approved by him
● How Bethany’s relationship with her dad got worse as she became an adult and encountered her personal addiction issues
● How Bethany learned hard lessons about communicating with her dad
● Why Bethany decided to maintain her relationship with her dad—even though he gave her every reason not to
● How Bethany set hard boundaries by not engaging with him when he was drinking and verbally abusive to her
● How extra complexities came into their relationship when his health declined and he needed her more and more
● Why Bethany’s decisions to engage and re-engage were never about believing he would change
● Why the boundary decisions we make are less about what is right or wrong and more about how we can remain an authentic, whole person
● How Bethany handled his terminal illness in ways that left her with no regrets
Resources and Links:
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC Davis 0:00
Hey.
Okay, Bethany, first of all, thank you for being here. And the reason why I wanted you to tell your story is because I talk a lot about boundaries on my Tiktok. And boundaries aren't what most people think they are, we usually think of boundaries. As you know, if you don't do this, I'm going to do this. And that can be what boundaries look like. But there's just a lot of pop psychology. And I think that you have a really great story about you and your dad about boundaries, that shows the nuances and the complexities that come when we get out of talking about boundaries as this sort of esoteric, like, hard line thing about like, well, you just, you know, don't put up with that, or Oh, never abandon that person, and look at them as stories of real people in real relationships that are neither good nor bad. So I have this flowchart that I use, I talk to people about, like this decision making process. And it was similar to the decision making process that you went through with your own dad. And so I thought we could just kind of start at the beginning as a way of telling that story. Okay. Okay. So the first question in this relationship decision tree is, is this behavior acceptable to you know, so let's talk about your dad's behavior. Like, why is this the story we're telling? So I think one thing that's important to note is that my dad was in Vietnam. He was drafted when he was 18. And he was on the ground in the jungle with a machine gun. And I think it had a very real impact on the man he became. So my parents divorced when I was five, he was not a nice man. I don't know the details. I suspect there was some physical abuse. I loved my dad, I just adored him. When they got divorced. When I was nine, we moved out of state, my dad remarried, she was not a nice woman, she had a daughter and a stepsister, and essentially my dad, and he admitted this, that he that was his family. And I was just an add on basically. Now I know that he loved me, but I didn't fit the mold. my stepsister was beautiful, blond hair, big blue eyes, pretty lips, she was skinny, like the whole thing. And I was just kind of a chunk my whole life. You know, what's interesting is I always felt like he called me fat. I don't think he ever outright said I was fat. But here's what I discovered when he just kind of fast forward to. He was in nursing home recently. And he was talking about one of the nurses and he was like, which one that he was like, you know, the fat one. And I was like, Oh, okay. Yes, that's it. Like, it was clear that I never fit the mold. But I, I mean, the truth is, I just adored him. So we had a very strange relationship. He always thought I was just too sensitive. I always got my feelings hurt. You know, we went on a cruise. He took me under, he was very generous. He bought me a car when I was 16. We went on a cruise, you know, he gave us all 60th Birthday cruises. And you know, I was alcoholic out of the gate.
Unknown Speaker 2:58
I was drinking at the bar. He didn't know if you're gonna sneaking it. And his comment to me was quit whoring around the bar, you know, 16 years old. So this is the way that he talked to me now. He also had very redeeming qualities. He was really funny, really smart, really successful. And like, I loved him, and I just always wanted him to be proud of me. And it just seemed like he was very, very critical. I remember when I was in high school, I said, Man, I would win the lottery wrong. Like, there would be nothing I could do. I'm for real. I just thought, oh my gosh, like, you know, be so proud of something like when I got a puppy for my 16th birthday, oh, man, it's all I ever wanted was this puppy, this Golden Retriever puppy. And I called him and I said, Dad, guess what? I got a puppy. And you said, Don't you think you're a little old for a puppy?
Bethany 3:42
I mean, it was just kind of just, it was almost like, it was chipped away very slowly. Again, I knew he loved me. And he did other things. For me. He showed his love by buying me things and not not a lot of things. But big things like certain things were very important to him. I had a real good case of alcoholism and drug addiction and went to treatment when I was 20. And this is when it really started to deteriorate. Although I don't know I think probably in high school. It did too. Because I felt so discarded by his family. And he like I said he admitted it. When I was in treatment. He came to the family program. He was like, Yeah, I did. I was like, oh, okay, so I went to treatment. And he was mean. And I ended up so this is when I really started kind of taking breaks from having any communication with him. He was really mean to me. My mom pay for treatment. I was in like year long treatment. I got out I was working at Starbucks, like trying to do the deal. And I had some health insurance and had a cavity I needed $80 To get my cavity filled. And I just couldn't ask my mom for another penny. And so I called him and he berated me for 30 minutes. He gave me the money, but he berated me about my life and how you know, I'm 30 years old and I'm working at Starbucks and he was just like, Ah, I was trying so hard to like, live a different life and, and I discovered at that time because I had started doing releases
Deep Work with myself and I thought, okay, I get it. When I asked him for something, he thinks I owe him something or he thinks I've given him permission to give me feedback in my life. That point, I never asked him for another thing. Not a penny, not a favor, nothing. So that was a good lesson for me. But so throughout the course of the next several years, you know, he would be mean to me, and I would take a break. And then it's interesting because our mutual friend Heidi, she was like, man, come on, call your dad. I mean, seriously, like, call your dad, I didn't invite him to my wedding because I wasn't speaking to him. So I did, I called him and, and I had been married at that time, we were about to start trying to have a baby. And so he was kind of in my life at that time. And, and so then he started coming to visit and we, you know, reestablished our relationship at this point. He's divorced. And then this is when his drinking escalated. So he was a, my guess is, If I could describe it, I would say he was a very high functioning alcoholic, like he was brilliant. He retired at the age of 52. He did all the things, you know, right. And then he was able to, like retire to Florida. And it got bad quick. And so when he would, you know, go on these benders and be ugly to me, I would take breaks. But I will say, over the last 10 years, it got to a point that was unbearable.
KC Davis 6:23
And so when it's interesting when you talk about Heidi being like, call your dad call your dad, was there a point at which she understood why it was you were not calling him? Yeah, she was like, Man, I'm so sorry. I just thought you had like the classic daddy issues. She was like, Bethany. This is legit. Like verbal abuse? Yeah. It's funny. So I feel like I did the opposite. I was like, cut that son of a bitch off and never talked to him again. And then you and then I gave him around. Yeah, you figure it out. Like oh, like you. I just telling you stories about when I was little and how I just like adored him. And you're like, oh, yeah, I feel like there's so much more nuance and human complexity to relationships than we like to think of like, we want to think that everything is so black and white. Everything is either forgive, reconcile, you know, reestablish or it's cut them off. Never speak to them again. And I think one of the things that your story does beautifully, is sort of dive into this complexity of maybe it is not either, or maybe it's both. Maybe it's and maybe it's sometimes this sometimes that so can you share with us like some of the things that went into your decision to maintain that relationship? Sure. Can I play message for you real quick, just because I think it's hard to really capture. So when my dad was not drinking, he was a binge drinker? Because I think this is all part of to answer your question. And when he was not drinking, he was nice, he was decent. So but then when he would drink, he would go off. And so here's a message. Now the only reason I saved these messages is because at one point, my husband was afraid that we would be in trouble from Adult Protective Services legitimately. So because I did get a call from them. And so I wanted to document like, Hey, this is the relationship. So that's one reason I saved these but Well, you're a coward. And your mother is a coward. And I can't speak to anybody that just wiped her dough. How and when, and where I beat your mother when she was pregnant, I think, spread the message widely. And I think it's a bull ship. Want to know.
Bethany 8:41
That day, he left me about 15 messages like that. We're talking about like, what kinds of factors for you went into the decision about when and how to engage with him. And you think your first point was that a lot of his abusive behavior was contained to his like alcoholic binges? Right when he was kind of rude and Curt, just his general nature. But when he drank he was like that. And so it was, you know, you talk earlier about you know, you said, Oh, this was so hard in it. It was so hard to figure out what to do. But So my rule was, and this was unspoken, it was like, I'll be in a relationship with you. But you have to be nice. I mean, I knew I couldn't stop his drinking. I had you know, certainly had a boundary he couldn't drink in front of me or my son. But like if you want to like drink away alcoholic Lee, that's fine, but you may not speak to me like that. I will not engage in relationship with you when you're being abusive. So what would that look like when he would do something like that leave you that voicemail? I would send him a text and say hey, I love you. You may not speak to me like that. And then he would argue back and argue back and I would just keep setting the boundary like unfinished with this conversation. I will not engage in then it would be and you know, his pride was so much like the way that we can
KC Davis 10:00
nected I didn't, you know, here's the truth is like, I had a hard time with that. Because internally for me, I understand alcoholism, and I understand that he, like was doing that against his own will. And so I had some compassion that that part of him was something more than him being just being a jerk that like he was under this spell, if you will, of something bigger than him. But you don't get to talk to me like that. And so like i Something inside of me said like, this is important, like, I don't want to, like just totally walk away from him. And so I think it was that time when he did that. And I got this call this random call from an unknown number. And it was this lady who said, Hey, I'm your dad's housekeeper. And he was in Florida, and I'm in Texas, and I just got to his house, and he's unresponsive on the floor, and I had to call 911. And so this started the kind of the end, like the last few years where this happened several times, like he would go to the hospital, I'd go down to Florida, and I would go to his bedside. And, you know, I would say, Dad, you know, I love you, and I'd show up for him. And then he would be nice for a while, and then he would drink again. And that would happen. I mean, this happens so many times. And and I think mostly what happened at this point was, this is where I started going down to Florida ending up at his bedside. And so at one point, you know, when he would come visit, it was so I don't even have the words for it, it was so stressful. Because I was always on alert. I was just waiting. And this was him sober to just waiting for me. I just was like, so I was bracing myself it was so I was like, terrified. And then at one point, he wanted to come back pretty quickly. And I told him, No. And then I felt guilty about it. And so I called him back and I said, hey, what if you just come for like, you know, like, a long weekend, that was me trying to have some sort of boundary that didn't go well, he came, it was fine. But then he called again, and was hateful to me. And then he sent me a three page letter about my disgusting behavior. And for the first half of the letter was about me, in my addiction, because I'm 20 years sober, the things I did, it was all true, I did behave like that. And the second half was about the boundaries that I said, and how he did not like them, and how hurt he was from them. So for it sounds like for a long time, you would engage until his behavior became unacceptable, then you would disengage what was the longest period that you guys were disengaged from a year, maybe a year and a half. I mean, in earlier parts of my life, it was four years, five years, but in the most like the last 10 years, I would say about a year. So then, as you move later into life, something shifts because he starts to actually need you. And so talk about the, like, extra complexity that that brings in because you go from this, you know, it's all just your behavior, right? You show up this way, I'm done. And I'm done until I don't want to be done anymore. Like, it's really that simple, right? There was no like rule was just like until I, you know, feel ready to engage with you again. Well, and usually what that looked like was he needed me in some way. Or he would, you know, he'd go like a month or two, and he'd be like, Hey, how you doing? I haven't heard from you in a while. You know, it's like, like, nothing happened. Yeah. And the truth is half the time, I bet he was in a blackout. He didn't remember. Yeah. So as it gets to the end of his life, though, you start having to actually care for him. And so how does that make it more complex? To sort of have those boundaries? Well, what's interesting is what I did come to is I didn't have to care for him. But I wanted to talk about that. I don't know I, when you say it again, yeah. You said when you had to care for him, I didn't have to care for him. And I was clear about that. But I wanted to, because, listen, he was such an unpleasant man. I was the only person he had in the world. He had a handful of friends who also kept him at a distance. He was an unpleasant man. And I have compassion for the fact that he was doing the best he could. And I'll tell you, most of my life, I didn't understand that. When I was a kid, my mom used to say, Honey, like I can go to my dad's house, and it'd be the summer and I'd be like, in the bathroom, sobbing, crying. And she said, Sweetie, that's not about you. That's about him. I couldn't figure that out. But having done some deep spiritual and emotional work myself, what I understand is what my dad says to me or about me, it's not about me, that's about him. So I was able to, you know, make that line. But I, my point is, is that I had some compassion for him, and I loved him. And I just like, I didn't want him. I mean, he was like on a decline. I mean, ultimately, he did die of alcoholism from pancreatitis and cirrhosis of liver alcohol induced, and I wasn't going to let him go down like that. I was like, I'm not going to go to my grave, knowing that, like, I didn't show up for him. So I think whenever we have these conversations about relationships and boundaries and harm and mistreatment, there's so many shoulds and shouldn't, right, and one of the things that I when I listened to your story, I think most people, you know, the story that they think of is like and then I cut them off and never spoke to him again, because I deserve better. But one of the things that I hear
hearing your story or or that are so powerful to me, number one, your decisions to engage in reengage, were never about believing that he would be different. No, like you were clear, like, I'm reengaging, he is the same person, he will have the same behavior. And I will probably need to disengage again at some point. It's easy in hindsight, but in the moment, it's funny, because I never knew like, what's the right thing to do? It was so hard. It was so it felt to me, like it was black and white. But I'm so thankful for the people in my life who helped me see that it was okay to you know, set a boundary. And then when he was nice, let him back in, you know, yeah. Because I think that's so much of the crazy making is the, I let him back in because what would be different, and then you, you know, your heart is broken, and I let him back things would be different, a heart is broken. And that's different than you going, he's gonna be the same person. And he's my dad, and I want to do it. And then the other part was, you know, towards the end, you talked a lot about, you talked about how I didn't have to care for him. Like I, I was not obligated to care for this person that had mistreated me so badly, but that you just wanted to Well, yeah, he's my dad. And I mean, I, you know, what I know is that like, when I was little, like, I just loved him. I mean, obviously, I still loved him and love him. But I mean, like, he was my daddy, there's so few people that I feel like can hold that space for somebody of like, you know, we want to push people, and we almost want to over moralize the other way of like, well, if you had any self respect, well, if you had boundaries, well, you know, you can't let someone talk to you that way. Like you should do that, whatever. And I think people forget that these are like real life, people in our lives that are gray. Even as horrible as the behavior sounds right? Like, at the end of the day, it is that like man is my dad. Well, and you know, it's interesting that you say that, because people who didn't really know the complexity of it, or, you know, it's like, I have this friend, a mom from school. And I, you know, when she first heard about the story, she's like, Oh, come on, you've talked to your dad. And then by the end, she's like, do not talk to him. And it was all very black and white. And there were very few people who, you know, walked the path with me of this gray area. Were kind of a you and Heidi particularly, and I have other friends, too, that like allowed me be in this place where I was uncertain. And I mean, the part that you helped me with the most is it was just so brilliant. Because I said, you know, in the thick of it, I said what I mean, how do I not be a martyr, and like, still love him? And you said, Well, you can still manage his health care. And you can still talk to the facility and make talk to the doctors and make sure he's cared for. And that doesn't mean you have to have a relationship with him right now.
Yeah, and you did, you went through a period of time where you didn't visit him, you didn't take him out to lunch, you didn't really even speak to him directly. But you were still really involved in his care, making sure that they were caring for him that his meds were balanced, that his clothes were washed, you know, all of those sort of things. And I think that's also a great example of how you can't give a lot of like generalized advice. Because there are these, you'll find these areas and almost reminds me of like a fine string. And it feels like you have to be on one side or the other. And like, regardless of how find that little thread, you can get in there and pull apart those little fibers and find these like creative ways to like split the wicket. You know what I mean? Like these creative ways to honor both sides of I do not have to submit to abuse and mistreatment. I am not obligated to care for the people that mistreat me and
my dad, I want to and I can't leave him there. And I'm not obligated to not leave him there. I don't want to write and how can I find ways to do both of those things at the same time, if you want to? Well, and it sounds so clear cut when you say that it did not feel clear cut in the moment. It was you know, when you're in it, you can't really see some stuff just fumbling through. I felt like I was fumbling through but I am just so grateful. I had a support system of people who could really like genuinely and authentically helped me like go to the places of like really figuring out what was happening and what I what how can I stay true to myself and how can I stay true to my family? My husband and my son and and how can I still love my dad? Hmm. And I'll be honest, it was brutal. Yeah, I will say I have no regrets. Not a one. I sat by his bedside for three days the last three days of his life and I and he was unresponsive and I and I talked to him and I have this memory of him. I'm taking me the movie nine to five and I eight bucks a Lemonheads and like you know, ruined my tongue from sucking on them and I said Hey Dad, let's watch a nine to five and I put it on in the room and I crawled in bed with him.
Bethany 20:00
When I talked to him, and I mean, I'll tell you what, in spite of that relationship, like, for me, it had a good ending. I am not even a little bit mad at him. I know that he's free. I mean, for people who hear that message, I know they're like, Oh, no. I mean, dude, the guy was doing the best he could. And he loved me the only way he knew how, one of the things that, you know, when we talk about these decisions that are so hard to make, they're so great. They're so complex. And what do I do? Do I? Do I engage or disengage? I think one of the important factors there that I observed in your journey with this, is that so much of that decision is less about, is it right? Or is it wrong? And more about what can I authentically do, and remain a whole person because, you know, you're someone who I mean, you got, what, 20 years of sobriety, you have a really strong background of good therapy and good healing, you have a good support system, you have like a stable family, you have like you had the coping skills and the support system that you needed to be able to engage such a difficult, sometimes abusive person, and you yourself not deteriorate as a result, like it would have been different choices. I think, had Heidi and I seen you deteriorating. Like if every time you got to that point of okay, mistreatment is happening, I'm going to step back, if we saw that, like you weren't coping through those, like it destroyed you for days, or like you weren't functioning in your home, or you weren't being able to show up for your kid or like, I think that we as your friends probably would have had very different feedback for you. And that's not like a moral good, moral bad, like, oh, you should be able to do this. If you're strong. I feel like people are just in different spaces, people have different privileges, people have different support systems. And so much of it is less about should I or shouldn't I? And more about what do I have to work with today? What do I have to work with in this season? Like what emotional and supportive resources do I have to work with, because I know for me like one of my boundaries, and I think you're the same as that, like, I cannot set myself on fire to keep somebody else warm. And it doesn't mean that I won't move heaven and earth to keep you warm. If I love you, and I care about you. And I can in many ways, see past bad behavior to your humanity, but I can't set myself on fire to keep you warm. And I think one of the powerful things about your story is even though it felt like it was kind of this, like stumbling in the dark, you know, part of the ability to engage in disengage when you did was recognizing, honestly, when you did and didn't have kind of like the resources at bay to be able to handle whatever he was kind of thrown at you, for sure. And also, you said the words like right and wrong. I think there were so many times I just wanted somebody to tell me what the right thing to do was, nobody could do that. I had to figure it out. And what I had to figure if and when it finally came to us that there was no right or wrong. There wasn't a right answer. It wasn't the right thing to do. To cut them off. It wasn't the wrong thing to do. It was what I could live with. How could I sleep at night? How can I, you know, at one point, I was on speakerphone with him in the car and my son was in the backseat, I hung up and my son said, Mom, does he always talk to you like that? Or just like you have this guy around my kid. And I don't want my son to think this is how we treat people. And this is how your parents talk to you. And I was just like, oh, no, sir. So there were just so many things. And I mean, the truth is, I mean, I was I mean, I was functioning, but I was a hot mess at times, you know, I cried a lot. And I cried about things that really didn't have to do with my dad. Like everything. There were times when I was so sensitive that my son having a disagreement with a friend can bring me to tears, and I was just in a super sensitive spot. Yeah. And so I just don't want to make the impression that, you know, Oh, I did it. Right. And I had all the answers, because the truth is, it felt like I was fumbling along the whole time. Yeah, we spent so much time worried about doing it right and getting it right. And I think what's powerful is listening to you say in hindsight, there was very little right or wrong, there were moments of going, it was really just like moments of trying your best to operate from your values. And those aren't right, because like, there's this value of I can't let my son be around this. There's this value of this as my dad and I don't want him to die alone. And there's this value of like, I'm a child of God and I don't want to submit to abuse. Like I can't do that. There's this value of like, he's got nobody else and I feel compassion and there's this value of, you know, I have to show up for my family and I have to care for myself and there's this value of you know, I want to you know, give of myself and help my dad and it's like sometimes it can feel so different
KC Davis 25:00
Whole, like those values are all in conflict. And like there's this perfect way to do that dance. When in reality, it's a lot of just kind of stumbling around and doing the best you can and recognizing that the best thing you can hope for is to be able to put your head on your pillow at night and go, Okay, I'm alright with it. And I'm so glad that you got that I did. I'm so grateful to thank you. This was such a wonderful, raw look at boundaries that I don't feel like people get to hear and I really appreciate you being vulnerable and talking about it. Thank you and I appreciate you being there for me the whole way
Transcribed by https://otter.ai