76: The Plague of Puritanism with Rev. Lizzie
A big part of the discussion around mental health, wellness, and self-care is not to overlook the factors that may have contributed to some form of religious trauma in your life. If you are someone who has a religious background and might be deconstructing from a religion (Christianity, in particular), today’s conversation will help you navigate that journey. I’m joined by Rev. Lizzie, an Episcopal priest who is based in Austin, Texas, where she is the founding planter of Jubilee Episcopal Church. There is something inspiring and comforting in this conversation for everyone, no matter your relationship with religion. Join us!
Show Highlights:
● Shocker: “Cleanliness is next to godliness” is not in the Bible, so you are not morally sinful if your sink is full of dirty dishes.
● Why Christianity can be comforting to us in our feelings of brokenness and unworthiness
● Where the phrase about cleanliness and godliness originated–as a way to teach that our “inside” is a more important focus than our outward appearance
● The danger of misunderstanding “God commands” and “God cares”
● Why much of what people “think” is Christianity is a misunderstanding of God’s grace and love for our souls
● Why the vastness of God cannot be contained solely within the bounds of scripture
● How we each have a “canon within a canon” of the scriptures that we hold the most sacred and important
● What Rev. Lizzie wants us to understand about the word “jubilee” and what it means about freedom, justice, and joy
Resources and Links:
Connect with Rev. Lizzie: TikTok, Instagram, and And Also With You Podcast
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
-
KC 0:04
Hello, you've sent me a ball of stardust, this is struggle care. I'm your host, Kc Davis. And we talk about all things mental health, wellness, self care. And a big part of that is talking about the things that have contributed to what perhaps might be religious trauma in your life. Or maybe you're someone who has been religious, and you are deconstructing from Christianity in particular, and you're navigating what that means for you. And so what I want to do today is I'm here in the studio with Reverend Lizzie, and I'm gonna let you introduce yourself here in a second, we're going to talk about some ways that puritanism in particular has influenced Western culture in ways that are not so great to your mental health, to put it mildly, to put it mildly. So whether you're someone who is deconstructing and you are, this will be helpful on your deconstructing journey when figuring out what to keep and what to throw out whether you are someone who is of the Christian faith, and you want to think critically about some of the cultural messages that you've gotten, or maybe you're someone who is not a Christian at all, and you're not interested at all in religion or Christianity in particular, this is also for you, because again, why would you want to hang on to beliefs that hurt your mental health that originated from a religion that you don't even want to be a part right, so this is a podcast episode for everyone? And with that, Reverend Lizzy, will you introduce yourself, please?
Rev. Lizzie 1:33
Yeah, oh my gosh, I was totally geeking out I listen to involve Stardust in the flesh. I friends with Lizzie I use she her pronouns. You can call me Reverend Lizzie father, Lizzie or just Lizzie and I'm an Episcopal priest. And if you've never heard of the Episcopal Church, we're very old. Actually. We've been around since the Reformation. Basically, we trace our roots back to the Church of England. We are a denomination that is pretty uniquely both Catholic and Protestant. So if you've ever been to Catholic mass, you would find an Episcopal service to be almost word for word the same. We have some distinctions in our history that make us distinctly Protestant. And of course, as you are hearing my very feminine voice we ordain women and ordained queer women, which I am. And so I grew up in the southeast, my I'm now rooted in Austin, Texas, where I'm the founding planter of Jubilee, Episcopal Church. And as the planter I got to pick the name. So I think we'll get into why Jubilee matters as this conversation unfolds. But I just want to say, first of all, I'm so delighted to be here. And second of all, like I am going to speak as a priest, it would be inauthentic for me to try and talk about anything without it being of an about God for me, and as I understand God, through Christian theology, and through my experience as a priest, but I offer that out of my authenticity and my experience and expression and invite anyone listening to to take or leave what is useful to you. And I hope that in a country where Christian hegemony and Christian nationalism is so terrifyingly present, and so many places that I think a lot of folks because I have theological training, I don't necessarily see people seeing the roots of those things, even in practices in places that are not explicitly Christian, I hope in me speaking authentically out of my experience, and faith that it is laboratory for anyone listening, and I'm not here trying to convert anybody. So it's literally not my goal.
KC 3:15
It's not mine either. In fact, people are sometimes surprised when they find that although I talk about being deconstructed from evangelicalism, I still very much practice a Christian faith and actually pretty devout in it. So I like to think that I'd left behind most of the cultural baggage that I don't believe to be biblical anyways. But I do my best to create a safe place for anyone and everyone that wants to come and learn about mental health from me. And so certainly don't think that I can promise to be safe for everybody's personal experience. But know that this is not a place that I don't think this is going to make your religious trauma worse.
Rev. Lizzie 3:55
I hope not honestly, like I genuinely hope to offer some healing and some liberation, if that if that is available and possible for you. Well, I
KC 4:03
love what we're going to talk about, because we're going to talk about something that is, I think, going to be liberating for both people of the Christian faith and people who are not of the Christian faith, because it really is this way that the Bible got used to say some things that are really hurtful and harmful. That like turns out like if we really look at who we believe the Christian God to be between you and I like we don't believe he's saying those things anyways. Right? So regardless of if you believe or not, I think everyone can benefit from taking a couple of concepts we're going to talk about and just getting rid of them. And then there's one concept, a biblical concept we are going to talk about that I think is missing from a lot of faith communities. And I would love to loan out to anybody who is not a part of the Christian faith community, but is on their own journey of finding meaning. So let's get into it. Father, Lizzie, we're going to start with the faith In this phrase, cleanliness is next to godliness. Do you want to kick us off because you know that I can info dump about it.
Rev. Lizzie 5:07
I mean, I'm so ready for you to info dump. I just I love to blow people's minds by saying this isn't anywhere in Scripture. And like, you know, the Bible's real long, real dense, it is at youngest, 2000 years old and at oldest 5000 years old. And that's just when it was written down from an oral tradition that had been passed down. So you can find almost anything in the Bible. I mean, like, this is a thing that just to what you were saying, like scriptural concepts, like part of what's challenging about like, faith in the public square is like to engage a sacred text meaningful, you have to understand how complicated it is, but also be willing to, like, enter into the fray of like studying that scripture and hearing God speak to you. But this phrase, cleanliness is next to godliness. Nowhere in that giant 2000 Plus page Bible,
KC 5:49
it's such an easy one to take, because like, there are some problematic things set in the Bible for sure. That like we have to wrestle with and figure out what the hell to do with and it's just like, kind of a breath of fresh air when you're like, This one is not ours, not ours. You know, I will definitely, it was certainly one of our own. Oh, for sure where the phrase came from, but interestingly enough, the phrase didn't even originate to mean when it gets mean met today, like it's always meant today to shame someone who is being messy, who isn't clean enough, who you know, like I get this sometimes on my videos where it talks about having a messy home or having, you know, mental health issues that make it difficult to get your dishes done at every once in a while. It doesn't happen as much anymore, because I think I've shamed these people out of my comment section, but they'll come in, they'll say, Well, cleanliness is next to godliness, and the really shaming thing that it's not saying, but it is saying is that being messy as a sin, having dirty dishes as a moral failing before God,
Rev. Lizzie 6:53
which is just wild on so many levels, because I mean, to me to start at the root of this is like, Is the goal to be God? Or is the goal to be disciples of God to be followers of God, right, because there's lots of aspects of godliness, omniscience, meaning, like all knowledge on the lessons I'm never going to have, and I can aspire, I can aspire to have those things. Sure. And I am setting myself up for failure and or setting myself up to be a controlling, cruel, very unhappy person. And so I mean, even just the phrase itself, godliness. Cleanliness is next to godliness. And like, I don't know if godliness is the goal, my friends, I mean, I, you know, holiness, for sure. But I'm not trying to be God. And there are so many things like sin, you know, I find it to be very liberatory to believe in sin. And I think this is helpful to like, get out right at the beginning, because I think sometimes people hear sitting there like, oh, it's me being dirty, or me being bad, or me, you know, it's something that is essential to my character that makes me unworthy of Love, dignity, respect, or belonging. And I remember actually, when I was in seminary being very weighed down with the fact that I was a sinner, and I was going to be a priest, because I was like, Oh, my God, like, I am not worthy of this. And I had a priest say to me, Lizzy, you're really not special for being a sinner, sweetheart. Sin is just a condition of being a person in a world that is imperfect in a world where we can make the most ethical, pure moral choices possible and available to us and people are still suffering. And I don't think having dirty dishes, it's the root of that evil.
KC 8:25
Well, and I'll say this, like, you know, I think that that's an interesting concept to even begin with, because, you know, a lot of people when they talk about growing up in church and hearing that you're a sinner, you're a senator, and they find that very shaming, they find that, you know, analogous to, you're wrong, you're dirty, you're bad, You are of your own self, completely unlovable. And I really sympathize with how that must have felt. And I don't have any necessarily like answers or anything to that, except to say that I find it interesting. And I think one of the reasons why my Christian faith has been such a comfort to me is because I came to the table thinking I was unworthy. You know, like, I was in rehab, I had really fucked up my life and 16 short years, like in record time, I had fucked everything up, I was in a lot of pain. I could not seem to do anything. I just I mistreated people that I really cared about. And I had done things that I was really ashamed of, and I felt broken and unworthy. But I thought that I was unique in that, right, like, I thought I was just uniquely broken and unworthy. And everybody else, you know, wasn't. And so when I heard everyone's a sinner, that sin is just something you have because the world is broken. To me that was such a great comfort because it was it Oh, I'm not bad. I'm just human. Like, this wasn't something that like I was so much worse than everyone else. will say that I just couldn't succeed in life. This wasn't like I'm so uniquely unlovable. It was like, Oh, you mean all humans are broken, like all humans are selfish. Like all humans have made choices to put themselves over other people in a way that is deeply shameful. That to me was so liberating, because I already thought I was a piece of shit. So like, the message of people would try to come to me and say, No, Casey, you're not broken. You're not unworthy, you are worthy of love. And I know people were trying to be loving, they thought that that would combat that feeling of being broken and unworthy. But it never ever, like fixed that or penetrated that because I just always felt like,
Rev. Lizzie 10:46
that's a lie. Yeah, it feels deceptive. It feels deceptive to your experience and your own, like internal script.
KC 10:51
Yeah. And so when someone said, or when I understood from, you know, I, my own reading of the Bible, you know, me saying, like, I'm broken and unworthy of love, and the response to that being? Well, yeah, but everybody is, and God knows that. And that has never been a barrier to him loving you. And if he loves you, that love in and of itself makes you worthy. And that was my experience with the Christian faith. And it's sometimes I like to share that because I think sometimes it may be lend some understanding on you know, if you have an understanding of the Christian faith, and I've had people be like, I don't even see how you could ever be Christian. And it's like, well, that but that's how I came to it. Right. I also came to it like reading the New Testament and rehab, not growing up in church to not being told to burn my Harry Potter book. So like, very different entry. Right? Um, so that being said, my experience was that God is anti shame. Yes. And so cleanliness is next to godliness. Is such a shaming principle like this idea that will you if you just feel bad enough about your things you'll do you'll you'll do different. So if you would, I would love to info dump on you on what I have discovered.
Rev. Lizzie 12:03
I am so ready. I'm so ready for it. So
KC 12:06
where did the phrase cleanliness is next to godliness come from? Well, friends, thank you for asking. It came from a sermon by John Wesley, who is the founder of Methodism, which is another branch of Protestant Christianity. In 1791. Right, he delivered a sermon that was called on dress, okay. And what the sermon was about was about how we dress specifically, it was about this scripture, First Peter, chapter three, verses three through four, I'm gonna read the New King James Version, do not let your adornment be merely outward arranging of the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel, rather let it be the hidden Person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. Now, I think this is really interesting off the bat, right? Because it's like, what what? Cleanliness? Okay, what does this have to do? So that's what he wanted to talk about. So Wesley wants to give a sermon about how you should not focus on an external dressing of yourself in a way that's about putting on an in this context, fine. Apparel is expensive apparel, okay, we're talking about this idea that if you put on the Dior and the Gucci, and that this and that, that, like, that's what makes you, you know, worthy and acceptable, and like you have it all together, right? Like I am. And we see this in the Christian Church, which is, it's not always Gucci, but it's like the pastor's wife that looks all put together, right? And we kind of all look the same. There's like a vibe about us, that all looks the same, right? Or you think like the Duggar family, where it's like, yes, we wear the long skirts, and we wear our hair, the dress code, right? There's like a dress code, whether formal or informal, that is supposed to signify your godliness. Yeah.
Rev. Lizzie 13:59
And signify your godliness by signifying something about what God thinks about your body. Sorry, I don't mean to ask. No, that's great. That's a significant Yeah.
KC 14:08
So he's specifically talking in his context to Hey, the whole like, showing up to church wearing expensive clothing to show off how you must be more liked and favored by God, because look at all of the ways he's blessed you and let me express that, like, knock that off. That's not how a Christian should behave. It's about who you are on the inside. Right. So that's a great point to make. And what's funny is, I think that that's close to the point that I make in my content about like, it's not about what the outside looks like. It's about you know, the way that you treat other people, but he was afraid or not afraid, but like anything when we make points, he had a disclaimer that he wanted to make because often when we're talking to someone, well, we don't want them to take it this way. And the disclaimer that he wanted to use is that when I say don't focus so much on your opinion Hence, what I'm not saying is don't take care of your body. When I say, dressing up the outside to look, you know a certain way is not holiness. I don't mean that it's somehow holy to neglect your appearance. Right. So what he says is, but before we enter on the subject, let it be observed that slovenliness is no part of religion, that neither is this, nor any text of Scripture that neither this nor any text of Scripture condemns neatness of a peril. Certainly, this is a duty, not a sin. Cleanliness is indeed next to godliness. So what Wesley meant was, I'm going to talk to you about how you shouldn't be putting so much focus on your appearance and the way your body looks, you should be focusing on the heart, but I want to make sure you don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying don't shower. I'm not saying that you'll then be holier if you don't shower, like don't take this, I have to prove myself and just put it in a different slot of like, well, then I just won't shower. So now the dirtiest person who shows up to church must be the holiest like, and slovenliness. In this context, he's not talking about like, laziness. He's like sloppiness. So I'm not saying don't shower and purposefully put on, you know, messy clothes, because that's somehow
Rev. Lizzie 16:23
holy, right? Like, you're more spiritual than physical or something, right? Like,
KC 16:27
it's your duty to care for your body and to put on clothes that you know, whatever. So first of all, point number one, cleanliness in this context did not mean like a clean home, it meant hygiene. He was literally just trying to say, I'm not saying don't be hygienic. So chapter two of this that's really interesting is that that didn't even like blow up this face like you. But I don't know this phrase because of John Wesley, right? We know that you were moving lips, my dude. We know this phrase, because the Ivory soap company then took the phrase from Wesley sermon and used it in a marketing campaign to sell Christianity
Rev. Lizzie 17:09
sells Oh,
KC 17:12
well, what's funny is that soap companies specifically marketed their products in religious terms for that reason, like they go, purity, cleanliness, I mean, up until the 1870s, people just use hot water to bathe. So remember, the whole thing about marketing is you have to give people a problem before you can give them a solution. So they had to basically tell you that being dirty, was bad and wrong and shameful and sinful, and so by our soap, because cleanliness is next to godliness. So in the 1880s, Ivory soap used, cleanliness is next to godliness as a marketing campaign, and that's why your grandmother shames you,
Rev. Lizzie 17:50
oh my gosh, there's just like so much to unpack with that. I mean, what I value about what John Wesley was trying to do there, and he does in other places, too, and I think is deeply troops, scripture, and deeply true, if God is that God does care about the mundane realities of our bodily life, and it is not I think, sometimes in lots of religious expressions and experiences, but I can only really speak from my experience. So I have seen in Christianity sort of what I could see John Wesley trying to combat there is this like, Well, I'm a spiritual being, and therefore what is on my body does not matter to me and or what is on my body must reflect my deep spiritual wisdom or piety or devotion. And you can see places in scripture where that is referenced. I think the Apostle Paul is often misinterpreted and quoted to talk about, you know, better to marry than to burn comes to mind, right? Like he's sort of talking about, like how you have to just spiritually transcend your bodily needs, but the reality of the scope of Scripture and I think certainly if God's provision and care that we see in the Old Testament or the Torah, it's not either but but specifically in Torah is that God is is cares about the intimate details of our life, and of our bodily reality, not because God wants to shame us, but because God created us in God's own image out of desire and joy, and there is no dimension of our life that is too small for God to care about. And that is, in some ways terrifying, right? Like the immense Creator of the universe knows how many, you know, dirty mugs I have in my dishwasher downstairs. But nor is she shaming me for that, right. And instead, like a lot of the laws and the practices around bodily care and hygiene, which we find in the book of Leviticus, which is where my church name Jubilee comes from. They're not about shaming they are about the practicality of how do we care for ourselves knowing that we are not only our own and that part of what I think hygiene is its personal care, but it's personal care also knowing that we are interconnected with each other like no decision for ourselves is ever only for ourselves because we don't exist in a vacuum and in Christianity, we talk about being the body of Christ body meaning like the corporate the group, but that is is embodied in our bodies. And so God's care for our bodies in hygiene and care and cleanliness is never ever about shame. It's about community and connection. And I think that is a sort of unlocking key for me. When I think about the popularity of this phrase. I'm curious what I know you've done a lot of like deconstructing around this. So like, how have you thought about godliness or holiness or pursuing a spiritual life? And this like incredible work you do around liberating people from
KC 20:27
shame and cleanliness? Well, it's interesting, because when I first started, I actually got an email from a pastor. And he said, You know, I really, I'm so drawn to your work. And it makes sense to me on like, a guttural level, like an instinctual level. But I'm having trouble contending with like passages in the Bible about laziness, like, how do I talk to my congregation about like, care tasks are morally neutral while contending with you know scripture about laziness and things like that. And so, one of the things that I think is such a huge shift for me is, especially in things that talk about the body is looking at, there are people that will position what God says about those things as commands, God commands versus God cares. And I think that when we see this idea of, you know, God commands that you wash, and if you don't, you're wrong, you're bad, you're sitting, you're like, How dare you these God verses that God cares, he wants you to wash, not because he made a command, and he really cares that he also thinks you deserve a clean and comfortable body. And so when you don't wash, he's not angry, he's not upset. I think that he, like a mother or a father is like turns his face inward, in a sense, like worries about you. And not in a pity sense. But in a, he knows what that means. He knows that that you're going through a hard time, it's hard for me to believe that when you're going through a hard time that makes it hard for you to shower, he gives a shit about the shower. It's not the shower. It's not like, not showering, right. Like, I also tended to like one of the biggest the sermon series that I heard when I was converted was the book of Hosea. And the way that the teacher that was teaching that book, he talks about this man who is commanded to marry a sex worker, and she marries him for the stability, but like, continues to go out and do sex work and continues to get out. And, and he keeps saying to her, you don't have to do sex work anymore. Like I will do these things. And that's the narrative isn't that she really loves the work. It's the like, I'm not I don't trust yet that this is stable. And this belief of like you couldn't possibly really, like want to love me and care for me. And so one of the things that the teacher talked about was that it was supposed to be this like metaphor of like when we're frightened. And we don't believe that we're loved. That God doesn't come to us with judgment. And the phrase that I'll never forget seared in my brain is he says, he Woo's us like a lover. It's gentle, and it's kind. And it resonated with me, because when I was in rehab when I was 16, and I was struggling to get sober, and every, like, I wanted to want to not get high so badly, I knew that I wasn't gonna be able to like white knuckle it, I knew that as long as I woke up and wanted to get high, it would only be a matter of time before I would, but I could not make myself stop wanting that. And not in the sense of like, I don't want to do drugs anymore. But in like the literal visceral like, nothing sounds like it's going to work. And like, I'm still thinking about cocaine all the time. And if I was offered it, I probably wouldn't be able to say no, just because it is so much more of an isolating experience than anything else. And every day I would wake up and I would go sit on this bench and look over this frickin cow pasture and watch the sunrise and I did not believe in God. But I wanted so desperately for there to be a God. Because maybe if there was a God, that was like, all powerful, I think that's my only chance. Because like, I have tried to change this thing in me over and over and over. And I do not have the power. And I am doubting that, like modern medicine does. And so at this point, I'm really thinking, My Hail Mary here is maybe there's a God, right. And every day I did this for like, over a year, every day, there was a little bit more of a sense that something or someone was meeting with me, and they didn't say anything. But every day that feeling of something, or someone is meeting me here in my brokenness, and I'm kind of a fuckup. And yet, they have nothing to say they don't need to address any of it. Like truly, like note, don't need to address any of it. And so then I go to church, and I hear this and I'm like, Okay, with that sounds like my story. And so, I always came in with this belief that the God of my understanding was always tender to me, and my brokenness was always happy to see me and my brokenness, like never felt frustrated at me. And so anytime I encountered that, like style of Christianity, I was always just like, Man, that is not my experience. That's not my experience in personal moments. That's not my experience when I read the New Testament like and every time some He would want to argue something I would be like, especially when they would like theology bros, right?
Rev. Lizzie 25:05
Yes. I'm familiar. They'd be like, well,
KC 25:09
you know, because the Bible, you have to do this because the Bible says this, like, it's very clear, this is what we have to do. Because the Bible says this, I was so connected to this day, so confused at people that have debates, whether it's about, you know, abortion, or gender roles, or, you know, meat or whatever it is taking parts of the Bible that says like, it's very clear, it says XYZ. And going, like literally the first thing you learn about Jesus in like, Sunday school is that the Bible is really clear that you're supposed to stone people that commit adultery. And then Jesus came upon a woman who was about to be stoned, and was like, What are y'all doing? And they all said, We're gonna stoner because she was caught in adultery. And he was like, and they were like, cuz the Bible is really clear, right? Like, that's their literal like, because it's clear, like, this is what the commandment says. And he says, All right, well, the first one of you that has never done anything wrong, can throw the first stone. And they all just stand there until they all walk away. I have always been so confused, like, how can anyone assert a moral command or superiority based on because this is what the Bible says, when like, the whole point was Jesus showed up and was like, Yeah, I get that. But anybody, like with some compassion and mercy could tell that like, maybe we shouldn't do this. I am
Rev. Lizzie 26:33
Pacey. As you're talking, I'm struck by several things. And first is just harkening a little bit back to your naming of Hosea. And that really, you healed something for me and your narrative of that, because that is one of, I think, the most difficult books of the Bible to engage and to engage as a feminist and to engage as a woman. And it is, I think, so ripe for misinterpretation, and I just genuinely think God, that preacher was able to draw that story out in such a flourishing way and to show like God's wooing of us and love us, and we have a prayer that we say, in the Episcopal Church, and we say that Jubilee every Sunday that says, it's at the conclusion of our prayers of the people. So in the service, you know, you read a little Bible, you have a sermon, then we have the people pray, and there's sort of a structure to that because we love a structure in the Episcopal Church. And then we have communion. But so there's, this is a point in the service that is meant to be you know, we sort of have a list of things we pray for, we pray for the government, we pray for people in pain, we pray for the oppressed for refugees for people, and we pray for specific people who asked me to be on the prayer list so that their names are named in our community. And there's an open space for people to pray. And at the end of all of that, I sort of knit the prayers together and thread them together with this particular prayer that says, For you, our gracious a lover of souls, and I just love that line. Because what I hear you naming is just grace, like the deepest love and gift of God is God's grace. And that is, I think, and there's actually lots of deep theological connections I've come in today sort of having reread Rowan Williams essay, the body's grace, it's one of my favorites, and where he talks about how we are connected to each other through intimacy, but also in community, the deepest truth of that is when we are open to the vulnerability, when we are open to looking foolish in front of each other. And we are open to receiving being perceived like we are trusting like that our fucked up Ness can be held and loved by God and by other people. That is grace. That is God's grace embodied and living among us. And I think to your question that, you know, it's a question I share, I don't think I have a total answer for what I mean, if I had an answer for why my beloved and I mean, this genuinely my beloved siblings and Christ can be such jerks. Man, I could marry Christianity and capitalism all over again and monetize that I don't have an answer. I mean, I think the short answer is sin. The longer I think reconstruction that I find helpful is that I think lots of traditions and sort of looking historically have taken a belief in the Bible that that is the sole source of God. But in my tradition, we don't actually believe that we believe that Scripture is the living word of God. And I take that very seriously. I took vows twice because I was ordained as a deacon and a priest before a bishop saying that I believe holy scriptures contain all things necessary for salvation. So I say that as a preface for like, I take the Bible very seriously. I read it every day. It is a profoundly sacred documents me it is the living word of God, I encounter God in it, and to contain God within the pages. The cover of a Bible is to try and control and contain God because God is bigger than scripture. And so in the Episcopal Church, we have something called a three legged stool, which if you sort of visualize that three legs, if you take one leg out, it collapses. And Wesley does this too. He has the Wesleyan quadrilateral, which I also appreciate I grew up Catholic and Methodist, so big fan, but we believe that Scripture is one leg and then the other leg is reason John Wesley would add experience so I do too. So reason and experience how we Think about things, how we research how we do anthropological cultural studies how we there are new discoveries about Bible literally all the time. It takes kind of centuries for those to sort of the church is a big old institution, it takes a long time to change, which can be frustrating, but it's also kind of our superpower is that we don't see urgency as a virtue even as sometimes there is like an urgent need to respond. We hold you know, the urgency of trusting God as paramount, but we don't always have to, like we trust that we're in God's time, I guess is a better way to put it. So but reason and experience and then the third pillar is tradition. So what has been done before and I think a lot of times, like I even think about the phrase like Trad wife or Trad Catholic like tradition is something that I think can be quite disparaged. But the reality is, I think, with the emergence of like, love of cottage core things and like love of Jane Austen persists forever, like I'm cottage core, girly Loki, like we like to know, and I think have a deep craving a deep desire to know that we're not the first to face these things. And in a post internet age, or like, you know, early internet days, when everything feels completely unprecedented, I find the study of Scripture, very liberating, because I'll read the Psalms, the imprecatory Psalms, which are poems saying, basically, like, Screw you, God, I'm so upset. Why did you do this to me? How can there be such suffering in the world? Why are children dying? Why has my child I mean, like, deep, like, the deepest pains, you can imagine are in Scripture. And it's like, wow, I'm not the first. And I'm not the only one. And I think the temptation for beloved Theo Bros. and I do mean, beloved, to say, well, this is what the Bible says, Let me neatly package it into something that I can control and exact upon another human being, is a fear of grace. It is a fear of vulnerability. And I mean that a fear of connection to each other, because that's terrifying. Being a person or another people is a terrifying thing, actually.
KC 31:58
It's also messy, like my experience with the God of the Bible. And so many of the stories and so many of the scriptures is that like, the one thing that I know is that God is moved by your pain, he is moved by pain, he is moved by your yearning. And that to me is like the meta narrative of the New Testament, which is like these people were out and but they yearn so you know, what they're in these people were not enough. But you know what, God cares about their pain. So fuck it, they're in these people, right? Like, it's like, over and over and over. And like, I'm always so like, the, the song that has always kind of been at the center of the mission of my whole platform is God's talking about one of his prophets, like somebody that he sends in his name. And he says, I'm going to like butcher it because I don't It's been a while since I've like laid my eyes on the actual words, but he says, A bruised reed, he will not break a smoldering flame, he will not quench. And so A bruised reed by the way, read talked about like a like a plant, right? And A bruised reed is so usually read stands straight up. And A bruised reed is like kind of bent. And so but the idea, and then a, you know, a smoldering like a flame, it's really small. That, to me is like the most important thing that the Bible says. And I think every single thing that you read in the Bible should be put through the lenses of the prophet of God, A bruised reed, he will not break and a smoldering flame, he will not clench, like he will not put out a fire that's about to go out, you will not break a reed that is already bruised. Like, that's it.
Rev. Lizzie 33:33
Yeah. And what you're doing right now, just to name is that all of us have what's called a Canon within a Canon ca n o n, meaning like a group of readings are a group of scriptures that we hold as the most sacred and the most important through which we interpret everything else. And everybody everywhere has this, if you read the Bible, like there's just because it's like I said, it's so big, it's so vast, we have so many different translations. I am someone who has devoted my entire life to the study and living of Scripture, and I cannot contain I don't have every word of it memorized, right. And so there are things that we pull from that we find to be true. And we find them to be true, because they repeated over and over. We find them to be true because of that, that three legged school because our reason and experience says hey, this is true if God God showed up on that bench day in and day out. And for me, God has shown up in the deepest and most painful moments of my life and been nothing but love and tenderness and a promise that she wouldn't leave me and God has also very consistently told me I'm going to take your idols away from you. That is a truth that I have experienced over and over is that the things that I want to make into God gods like no, you don't get to keep those painful, but it is always ultimately been liberating. And so when we have we all have a Canon within a canon and I think it is not a cheap grace, nor a shallow encounter with God, to know that God is first and foremost loving because God did not need to make human beings God is not lonely without us. God has an LACC God is full and enough God Self. That's actually a fundamental doctrine in Judaism and Christianity. That's the belief of the Trinity Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is that God is God with God. God doesn't mean anybody else. But God desired to make us. God loves us. And God made us and so God is not going to birth us and birth creation to just abandon it when we end up being people and not God. So
KC 35:22
I said, at the beginning of the podcast, you had two topic, two things we were going to talk about that idea is just get rid of an idea you should maybe adopt. And now we've talked for the entire podcast about the first idea. So listen, the other thing we're going to talk about is purity culture, and the shame that we feel around the body and sex. Here's what I'm going to suggest. I'm going to suggest for time sake, that you come back to talk about that one. But let's wrap up talking about a concept that I wish more people of the Christian faith would adopt and emphasize and something I want to hold out as something you are welcome to borrow even from outside the faith, and that is the idea of Jubilee. So Can she can you talk to us about Jubilee?
Rev. Lizzie 36:01
Yes. And I will just offer that it is always a beautiful and risky thing to talk about the Old Testament as we understand it. In Christianity, the Bible is understood in Judaism. So if you're really passionate about this, I encourage you to talk to a rabbi to talk to your Jewish friends, just because this is a sacred text to lots of people. And so I again, I'm speaking from my Christian context, but Jubilee comes from Leviticus chapter 25. And it is a command and this is it as a care of God, that is also a commandment that every 50 years, so every seven, seven years, every 50 years, there is like a super nova Sabbath year. And so what is the Sabbath year a Sabbath year was every seven years God was like take a break from the land rest, Sabbath, meaning rest, cessation of work, trust and relish and rest and God's abundance. But the Jubilee Year was like a super version of that, because God promised that God would create a harvest so rich in the 49th year that it would feed people in that 49th year in the 50th year, so much so that they did not have to plant anything, they did not have to pull any vegetables up from the ground, and the harvest would last a third year, that 51st year, so much so that as they were planting again, they could steal off of the fruits of that 49th year. So that's God promised this profligate this extravagant harvest. And part of God's commandment with this is one that people feast that they eat the good foods, and they feast until their bellies are full, and they seek out everyone who does not have enough to eat and feed them. Another dimension of the commandment of the Jubilee year is that all debts are released. And in fact, the entire structure of being indebted to one another is meant to revolve around this concept that every 50 years all debts are free, completely released. So you're not trying to like, you know, extort people or exploit them by saying, well open Jubilee or yours coming up in three years. So I need to like really, you know, charge your super high interest rates right now, like no gods, like don't do that. And all people who are enslaved are to be set free. And so it is a year my old testament Professor Ellen Davis, when she was teaching us about this at Duke was like, this is the most profound vision of justice that exists in Scripture, because it is a reliance on God a trusting on God as the true gardener and as the harvester, but also that God's vision for all people is to experience this freedom. And I find particularly the conversation around not only trusting God's harvest, but also this release this freedom of debt to be something that when people say that they take the Bible, literally, I'm like, please take Leviticus chapter 25. Literally, what would our world look like if every mortgage, every medical debt of every student debt was guaranteed to be released every 50 years? I mean, it is like debt is the way that people stay in poverty. And it is because we have these machinations within our society within capitalism that try to keep people in debt. And God says, Guess what, like debt is not actually a Christian virtue, it is not actually a godly virtue. And that's why we you know, if your Presbyterian or another says, you know, forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors, we say, Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive our trespassers forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Like, God is ultimately not interested in holding something over our heads to threaten us with what we owe God, God is interested in freedom.
KC 39:16
So how would you tell sort of like the average person, like what would it look like to begin to implement parts of what we learn from a jubilee year into our lives this idea of justice and joy? Oh,
Rev. Lizzie 39:32
my gosh, I'm so glad you asked this question. So the whole reason my church has named Jubilee is one because I really want us to live into this and to because I think it is very tempting. And I mean, it's not tempting, not in a shame way. Like it is a real temptation right now to give into cynicism and despair. And to say it's just not worth it. And to say the world is terrible, it's never going to get better. I think about that with climate despair. I think about that with the political landscape right now. I think about that with the wars going on in this world. Although it is so understandably tempting to be like, none of this is worth it. And I think it's also understandably tempting to just think that we just have to work, work, work, work, work, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight for justice, and be super pure about pure from injustice, and exhaust ourselves and never feel any joy because other people are suffering. And the deepest reality is that if we are going to pursue justice, we have to be rooted in God's joy. And so I think the ways that we can embody Jubilee in our everyday life is one too if you have debts from other people consider what it would look like to release them or to live in such a way that you are not dependent on that debt. I think also, if you live with a lot of debt, to know that you don't need to carry shame around that because it is God's deepest desire for you to be free and not not free in some sort of like prosperity gospel way like you have to earn that like That's God's desire is for all of us to be set free. And I think the other deepest thing is that we have a prayer in the Episcopal church that we say in the evenings it says, Keep watched your Lord and those who work or watch or weep this night and give your angels charge over those who sleep 10 The sick Lord Christ, give rest to the weary, bless the dying, sue the suffering, pity, the afflicted shield, the joyous and all for your love sake. Amen. And I love that because it's a litany of like when we are weary when we are afflicted, when we are suffering, when we're dying, when we're all these things that we ask God to help us with. And that's important, but it ends with shield, the joyous. And I think even when we are suffering, and we are dying, it is still worth it, to ask God to shield our joy to amplify our joy. It's the most vulnerable human emotion and to know that that is precious and good, even when you think you're not worth it. You
KC 41:38
are and I love the idea of marrying abundance, with a passion for setting the oppressed free that in God's eyes, those are intricately entwined and can't be separated. And I think a lot of the times there is this question of either have to feel guilty about joy that I do feel or abundance that I do have in my life that I can't do that and work towards the freedom of the oppressed. And I love the idea that the Jubilee year is about both it's not just about one or the other. So anyways, well this was such a great conversation and I hope you'll come back soon as we can talk about purity culture, where can people find you online if they want to follow you?
Rev. Lizzie 42:17
Oh my gosh, Casey, I just adore you and I love you so much. This was such a treat. Thank you. I am at Rev dot Lizzy on Tiktok and Instagram. If you want to come check out my church Jubilee Episcopal Church. We are in the northwest corner of Austin almost into Cedar Park and I also do a podcast every week with my dear friend mother peaches aka Reverend Lord Panfilo called and also with you where we are sort of taking the like topics, deconstructing them within Christianity and then reconstructing them. So it's like kind of what we've done here if it if that's helpful to you.
KC 42:46
That's what we do every week. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much, and I hope you have a lovely day.
Rev. Lizzie 42:49
I hope you do too. Bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai