75: Building Resilience is Better than Finding Solutions with Dr. Patrice Berry
Resilience. You’ve heard the word, I’m sure, but do you know what it means and how it plays out in real-life situations? Building resilience through pain and difficulties is today’s topic, and Dr. Patrice Berry is here to help us understand. She is a licensed clinical psychologist in Virginia who enjoys creating educational content on social media to provide additional education and information to people she can’t see in her local office. Join us!
Show Highlights:
● How Dr. Patrice sees resilience in her work with trauma survivors
● How Dr. Patrice defines resilience
● Why resilience can be both an innate ability and a learned skill/tool
● Why resilience comes from a growth mindset of honoring pain and seeing light through pain
● What it means to balance pain and trauma
● How a supportive network helps build resilience by making someone know they are seen, heard, understood, and not alone
● Dr. Patrice’s take on the oft-used statement: “Children are resilient.”
● Why children need to experience difficulties, disappointments, mistakes, and pain (not intentionally-caused pain)
● The role of resilience in being the difference between surviving and thriving
● How to find joy—even in the midst of surviving
● How Dr. Patrice teaches the resilience-building skill of “doing the opposite”
● How to give yourself accommodations
● The relationship between resilience and persistence
Resources and Links:
Connect with Dr. Patrice Berry: TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, and (book) Turning Crisis into Clarity: How to Survive or Thrive in the Midst of Uncertainty
Book mentioned by Dr. Patrice: Trauma-Proofing Your Kids by Peter Levine
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC 0:05
Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, Casey Davis. And today we're going to talk about resilience. It's a word that you've probably heard a lot, you probably know what it means. But it's one of those words where you know what it means until somebody asks you to define it. And here in the studio today is Dr. Patrice Berry. And Patrice, I'm gonna let you introduce yourself, tell us what we need to know about you. Before we jump into this conversation.
Dr. Patrice Berry 0:31
Thank you so much. And it's a pleasure to be here. I am a licensed clinical psychologist in Virginia. And I also enjoy creating educational content on social media as a way to just provide education to individuals that I could never see in my office. Awesome.
KC 0:49
Okay, so tell me a little bit about I want to ask you to define resilience. But before I do that, tell me about your like relationship professionally to how you use resilience in your
Dr. Patrice Berry 1:01
work. I work a lot with trauma survivors, and the act of resilience, the process of coming through adversity, and not only coming through it, but also learning and growing from it. It's something that I like to let my clients know is even an option. Because when they're sitting across from me, in my office, they're often feeling broken and just miserable. They're at a very, very low point. And in that moment, I see their resilience. Because sometimes I think we look at Oh, resilience means that you're, quote unquote, strong, when I think it takes a lot of strength to be vulnerable, and go to therapy, to realize you need help and support versus hiding and masking that, and not really getting that help and support that could be useful. That's
KC 1:54
so huge, because I mean, okay, before we get into the definition, I'm just thinking about, like, the times in my life when I've been going through something really hard, and I just like lay in my bed and sob. And I don't know that I would have considered that me being resilient. But when I think about the amount of people I've met, that truly don't have the skills or courage to allow themselves to fall apart, and sob, like, that does make sense. Crying
Dr. Patrice Berry 2:18
is one of my favorite coping skills. Now, if I'm doing it every night, if it's at a point where it's impacting my functioning, that is very different. But sometimes some things happen in life where I just need to cry, or in therapy, because I'll have people apologizing for crying in session. And my little joke with with my clients is, like, I get paid extra when they cry, but I don't. And so that's always because I like to make humor in that moment, because they're often feeling a lot of shame, and feeling a lot of guilt. And really, I'm like, I would rather you cry with me than hold it together in therapy, the place that's supposed to be safe emotionally for you, and letting them know that I can handle that emotion. Because often I've found that people are in the midst of all that pain, that other people want that pain to go away, and they won't hold space for it.
KC 3:12
So as a part of being resilient, the ability to fall apart when it's safe to do so. Because we do talk a lot about it being the ability to trudge forward, the ability to move on the ability to, you know, put something on the backburner for a minute so that you can still function but I don't know that we talk enough about it also being the ability to fall apart. So how would you define resilience? Let's start there. And
Dr. Patrice Berry 3:38
really leaning on a lot of just research and other definitions. So this isn't my personal definition. But it's that process of adapting well, in the face of adversity, tragedy, stress, and learning and growing from it.
KC 3:54
Hmm. And that's a skill that like, once you learn it through one trauma or tragedy is like applicable to everything else in your life. So you're not having to like relearn how to go through every trauma. And would you say that resilience is innate in some people? Or is it always learned?
Dr. Patrice Berry 4:14
And that's I think there's a complex relationship between resilience, and indeed, those innate or learned factors, because I think it's a combination of both. Now, there are some people where their natural ability to regulate their emotions, that's a strength for them. And yet someone where that might be something that they're not as skilled at, they can learn skills and tools to be more resilient. So I don't think it's something you have or you don't have. There are certain factors, even economic or societal factors that can make it easier to bounce back after a situation or different privilege that really can help. And yet, I would say even someone in Maybe that comes from a very, that doesn't have as much support that there are other things that might make it more difficult. But I could still find ways to build resilience within that client.
KC 5:12
Yeah, cuz it seems like it's not just emotional regulation, although that is a part of it. But it's also like a lot of the cognitive structures, like the beliefs that we have about ourselves and our ability to challenge those beliefs or the police about others. And then, like the ability to be, like, honoring to pain, but also be optimistic about the world, like, you know, we don't want to be overly optimistic and have toxic positivity. But we also don't want to be like, so cynical, like so into rejecting positivity, that we become cynical and depressed and desperate, and we don't have any optimism at all interesting.
Dr. Patrice Berry 5:51
And I think about it as having a growth mindset. I know that was something that people talk a lot about with emotional intelligence, or with different topics like that, but being able to go through something, and have a balance with it. So in the midst of that pain, I still honor that. And then I can also see that light in the midst of the pain or once I get through it, maybe it's changed me in a way that might be I have to cope, I have to manage, I have to learn to live with this grief. And yet, I might also have a new passion for supporting people that are actively grieving, or there might be something positive that comes out in the midst of that pain,
KC 6:34
it kind of like the visual I get is like being on a boat in a storm, and how you know, sometimes the boat, like I used to be really afraid when I was on a sailboat because like how badly they tipped to one side. And I'm like, surely this is going down. Right. But at the same time, like when you think about a boat in a storm, like there's so much water coming over the top of it, there's so much battering of that boat like It's like there is no way to get through it without getting battered. And yet, there is a way to like, not sink, like you might be badly damaged. But you don't sink.
Dr. Patrice Berry 7:10
I love that. And that really an experienced sailor is likely going to embrace some of that uncertainty, or they're going to know okay, at what point do I need to ask the crew to help out or at what point do I need to adjust? Because I think sometimes when you go through tragedy, or when you go through a negative event, our brains go into autopilot. And what feels right might not be what builds resilience, were in the midst of that pain, what I really want to do is just lay in bed all day. And there's a part of me that acknowledges that and then also, okay, I still have to get up and feed myself and take care of myself and finding ways to do that in a way that honors that pain. And then also doesn't keep me because if I listen to that pain too much, it's going to keep me back and hold me down. It
KC 8:06
sounds very much like a balancing act like I don't want to ignore my pain, but I can't let my pain always be the driver. And when you're teaching a client this like, it seems like there's quite a bit of research out there about how to ditch resilience, like it's kind of a, to an extent, it's kind of like a warm and fuzzy concept. But it seems like there's some real data about what kinds of things build resilience and what kinds of things don't.
Dr. Patrice Berry 8:31
And I think starting with building skills and tools to manage emotions. And something that I do with the clients that I work with is honoring the negative ones, the sad ones that anger, acknowledging, though, because sometimes people they only want to feel and understandably, understandably, it makes sense. And yet the lives that we live, you are going to experience sadness, you're going to experience and being able to have the tools to manage those emotions when they come. I think also having a supportive network. So having some supportive people, whether that's the family I was I came into, or my chosen family, or my friends just being able to have some additional support. Because I truly feel like we were made to live in community. We aren't meant to be isolated and all on our own and to figure it all out ourselves. I'm mom to a six year old. And one of the best things that I found was connecting with other parents that were honest about their struggles. It wasn't that parent that was like, Oh, I make breakfast every morning or I don't know like the parent that's like oh yeah, my kid eats breakfast bars every morning too or I don't like just being able to connect on just what what we're struggling with and being authentic in those relationships.
KC 9:56
It's interesting how much of resilience has to do with what you do? Whoo, during times that aren't hard, right? Like, I think about our boat metaphor, and it's like, okay, like, how am I servicing my boat when the waters are calm? How am I attending to the crew and the waters are calm and my mending my sails and my taking inventory and things like that. And this idea of resilience being a community trait or a family trait, and not just an individualist trait is really interesting to me. Because I feel like in Western culture, there's so much emphasis on you as a person individually and like, How can I be strong? And how can I, you know, take care and function through these really hard things, versus this idea of, I mean, I really would have never thought if you would have asked me like, how do I build resilience to the idea of being vulnerable with a mom about the fact that our kids just eat granola bars, like, I that wouldn't have come to mind. And yet, that's so true. Because that moment of connectedness makes a big difference when you are crying in your bed.
Dr. Patrice Berry 10:57
Because I think we all struggle, and sometimes on social media, if we're only posting the winds if people are only seeing the ups, and now I don't. So I don't personally post my downs necessarily, but being able to find safe community, because we all longed to be seen and heard and understood. And in the midst of that pain, some of the lies or the distorted thinking can happen where you're thinking, I can't do this. I'm all on my own. I'm the only one struggling like this, without realizing it's not just me. Other people also struggle like this. Other people also keep you know, a, I keep spare deodorant in my office, because sometimes I forget in the morning to put deodorant on, I have a spare dress here in my office, because I might, you know, do something that damages my outfit or, but just knowing that it's not only me that that there's nothing wrong with making adjustments that helps support my life.
KC 12:02
I want to talk about a phrase that I've always heard, which is something that gets repeated a lot when a family goes through difficulty or when a child goes through trauma, which is well, children are resilient. And I'm curious what thoughts you have on that phrase? Is it true? Not true? Is it more complicated than that?
Dr. Patrice Berry 12:22
One of the things that I think we forget, so when a child experiences early childhood trauma, especially pre language, sometimes it can be stored in the body in a way that we might not realize until later. So that child might seem okay. Until about puberty, and then all of a sudden, they're having behaviors and the family's like, Where's this coming from? And then when I sit down with them, we find out that there was a significant thing that happened earlier on that, really, they didn't really show any issues for a long period of time. And now, we're seeing an increase in certain behaviors. And I think we forget that in kids, when they're not okay, it's going to show up in their behaviors. And that can sometimes be a sign of, okay, I might need some extra support, I might need some extra help. And I do think that how the family responds after or in the midst of, because I've had some people that keep secrets from kids. And then once the kid finds out the truth, now their whole life is just like they're having to Rhea develop their sense of identity and, and that can really cause problems later on. And so finding ways to support kids based on their their age based on their temperament, just how they're made. And then also just providing those supports. And then if I do have a child that struggles a little more being open to getting support, something that I've realized that like, just as I turned 40 Is I likely have undiagnosed ADHD. And back when I was growing up, that was something that my mom would have never sought support for. She would have never, because I think in the past, and maybe still now, I think people sometimes view if there's something quote unquote, wrong, or if there's something going on, a lot of people start to think, is there something I did or what's going on. And now we're in the process of getting our six year old evaluated to, because there are some things coming up. And so even as a licensed psychologist, like as somebody that works with kids and teens, I still like my child needs a therapist. And that that's okay, and that that can build resilience versus waiting until he's in middle school, and maybe failing and struggling and then I finally do that assessment and finally get them support. But as poor self esteem is done. It's
KC 14:49
really interesting when you talked about the difference between maybe like your parents generations, you know, it's something wrong with me and let's not talk about it versus Hey, my kids struggling let's get into support because I think Maybe that's like the difference because sometimes when I hear people say like children are resilient, it's a way of saying so like, you know, if you have a friend going through a divorce, and like, it's a good thing that divorce is happening, like they will be happier, they will be healthier, separated, and they have a child. And of course, as a parent, you're like, how is this going to affect my child is going to wreck them? Is it going to traumatize them? Are they going to, you know, turn out to be a drug addict now, because you know, we mommy and daddy couldn't stay together. And when we're talking in those situations, like if I have a friend, and I'm saying like, listen, children are resilient, but this is also a friend who I know is talking about emotions with their kid who is going to get their kid, a therapist who is going to have those open communications with them. And I think the way in which that's true is like children can learn resilience that like, every human goes through difficulties and traumas. And there, we can still live happy home life. So like your child's not doomed, because this thing happened to them. Everybody, I always joke like everybody has traumas that affected their lives. Sometimes we get them young sometimes Oh, like it's happening. And like, the human condition, has the capability of learning resilience and still creating a beautiful life. And to that degree, yes, like even children can move through this and create good lives, that's different than saying that a parent going well, I'm not going to get them help, I'm not going to get them this, we're not going to talk about it, children are resilient, they'll be fine.
Dr. Patrice Berry 16:31
And that child is not going to be fine. They're going to stuff those emotions, it's going to come out later. Because in my experience, situations like that, that child ends up feeling like their emotions aren't okay, and that they have to be okay, so that the parent feels okay. Or that they if there's something going on in them that the parent doesn't have the capacity to support them, which can bring up all kinds of issues down the road. And so building resilience and families as a community, that's something that I'm really passionate about. Because in our world, I've seen people try to protect their kids from uncertainty, and wanting them to be happy all the time, versus saying I need to help might prepare my child that things aren't always going to go their way that there are going to be some difficulties. And I want them to feel safe enough that if something's not okay, that they'll come and tell me that they'll tell a teacher that they'll come and that we can support and that we'll be able to manage it, that their life isn't going to be perfect, there are going to be things that happen. And there's a great book, it's by Peter Levine, and I believe trauma proofing your kids. That's something that I often recommend to parents that are struggling to let their kids feel pain. Now as a parent, I don't want to intentionally cause pain. So I do so in my family. We're breaking generational patterns and generational trauma. And so you definitely want to make sure that you're creating a safe environment. And yet at the same time, I know that there are going to be difficulties that come up. Yeah,
KC 18:10
well, creating pain and protecting from pain are totally different. And I think that when we're talking about children being resilient, as an encouragement to the to the parent that is connecting their kid to resources to and we're just kind of saying like, hey, the story is not written like you're not doomed, just because you went through a hard thing is very different than when people use it as a thought stopping cliche, which is something we talk about on my podcast a lot these phrases that are just meant to shut everything down and put your head in the sand and not look at it anymore, which I think are all really interesting. My one of my daughters did preschool at this place that put a lot of emphasis on resilience. And they didn't call it that. But you could tell that that's what it was. And it's funny how simple it can be for little kids. I always thought that perfectionism was something that happened because of trauma. And I have now learned that truly some children come out of the womb with perfectionism, like hardwired. And so you're looking around the room at these little preschoolers. And one of the things that they would do is that anytime a child said, I'm not good at this, or I don't know how they had this concept where they said, like, we want to teach you the magic word. And the magic word is yet. So anytime they said, I'm not good at this, instead of saying, Yes, you are. Yeah, I like it, right, which is really kind of suppressing and validating. They'd say, well, what's the magic word? I'm not good at it yet. And I was like, this is brilliant, because I spend so much of my time as a parent, you know, because we feel so bad when we hear I'm so bad at this. I'll never be good. I love it. It's so beautiful. And it's like, well, maybe there's a better way and I just love that growth mindset of it's not good yet. Like let's leave some possibilities open for that. And that was just such a simple way of them doing that.
Dr. Patrice Berry 19:57
My other favorite one is mistakes. how we learn. And that's something that I say to myself, I say to my child, I also openly acknowledge that when something happens when I get something wrong with my child, because I might spill something, or I might do something and he sees it, it's like, oh, the stakes are high, we learned that I'm not beating myself up, like, oh, how can I do this? I'm such a, because I think we can tell a kid one thing, but if I'm modeling something else, for my own emotions, they're going to see that that difference, and they're going to be more likely to do what I'm doing, versus what I'm telling them. They should do.
KC 20:34
Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about the difference between surviving and thriving and the role that resilience has. This
Dr. Patrice Berry 20:44
is such a great question. And I have a book turning crisis into clarity how to survive or thrive in the midst of uncertainty, the
KC 20:52
midst, that's a huge part of it, because everybody wants to talk about how to fix it and move on. But what about the midst of it,
Dr. Patrice Berry 21:00
because there's some things that just are, and I'm not going to be able to change it, I'm going to have to adjust to this pain. So a personal one in our life is our kid doing intruder drills at school, and our school is an elementary school. And so they notify us when they're coming. And we handle it. So we manage our own just like, hey, oh, by the way, y'all might do this, what do you normally do during it, and as a parent, so if I hear the schools on lockdown, or anything like that, it can bring up a lot of things where it's like, I'm just gonna homeschool. And I'm just going to keep them safe at home. But I know every person is different. And what works best for our household is being able to have things the way that they currently are, which does leave things open to that uncertainty. So surviving, and I don't judge. So if my client is just getting through it, they're still in the midst. So to me, you can't thrive until your storm is over. Like, like if you're still in the midst of a bad situation, if you're not safe yet. Because I think to thrive, you need some some safety. And there are things that we pick up, when we're surviving, that it can be hard to let go in order to thrive. And I work with people, especially some veterans, that might have difficulty in larger spaces. And what we do is we try to gradually get them more comfortable. And it's in a supportive way where it's so that trauma so that feeling doesn't dominate their choices. And yet, in that moment of them surviving, I totally understand why they are where they are. And their goal is often to try to get back, maybe never getting back to pre trauma functioning, but trying to get the sense of their life back where the pain isn't regulating what they can and can't do. And if that's my client's goal, to me, that's a way to teach them how to thrive. And there are strategies and tools that work and instilling some of that hope. Because sometimes, when you're in a dark situation, it can be hard to see is there a way out. And that's where people are looking for therapists, making sure if they do have complex trauma are a lot of things that have happened, making sure that that the therapist is skilled and managing it because I've heard horror stories of people, the therapist not being able to hold space for the amount of pain. So people that have had just trauma after trauma after trauma after trauma after trauma, that it being too much for the therapist, because there's a big difference between someone that's trauma informed and someone that skilled at working with trauma. And so I think finding that right fit can help. I'm
KC 23:46
also wondering like, what the role of joy is, and resilience because as you were talking about maybe having a client who was a veteran can't go to big open spaces, and I'm thinking okay, so, you know, they can't go to a movie theater yet. But how much time do we spend trying to get them to the movie theater? versus how much time are we spending talking about how they can enjoy a movie in their home? Can they invite one friend over get a bigger TV? Can you afford a bigger TV? Can we get a lazy? Like let's get some popcorn like and not in a corny way, but like, how do we make sure that we're also helping clients make moments of joy in the midst of surviving and not postponing all this joy for that one day when we're not just scraping by anymore? And I
Dr. Patrice Berry 24:33
think finding that joy in the midst of it, right as I'm surviving, and maybe not quite at a point where I'm ready for the next thing. I think that can also help give some of that hope and just make the now a little bit more more enjoyable. I think anyone could benefit from that.
KC 24:57
So I asked you when we were meeting before we Recorded like what people are most surprised by when they start to learn about building resilience? And I loved your answer, because you talked about how often when you're first starting, building safety requires you to do the opposite of what feels safe in the moment. And so I'm wondering if you can talk about that for a bit. Because it's, it's interesting because I do a lot of talking about honor your body, honor your need, if you want to rest, rest, if you want to, you know, mail it in, mail it in if you want to order pizza order pizza. And I think that that is such an important part of learning to care for ourselves, especially if we're in a place where we're kind of putting down a lot of shame and things like that, and learning self kindness. And there's a really important part in that conversation of talking about building the skill of doing the opposite, that isn't driven by shame, you know, what I mean? Like that is still driven by self kindness. So talk to me about that. And
Dr. Patrice Berry 25:56
this truly comes from, as a therapist, I kind of practice things first, before I ever, you know, introduce it to a client. But in dialectical behavior therapy, there's a skill called act opposite, that sometimes if I am just in a really, really dark depression, now, there will be some days where I just stay in bed all day. And then there can also be a way where in the midst of it, if I'm just feeling like staying in bed all day, but maybe I can, instead of staying in bed, maybe I can go sit on the couch, that that just doing the opposite of how I'm feeling with in my, because it talks about zone of proximal development, that zone of can I do this, because Because going outside for a walk that might be too far that day, that might not be anything that the person is ready for. But if we're talking about bed versus couch, opening the windows, because I really just want to be in the dark, and just stay there. And yet just opening the windows, that that can just be a small step, that helps me feel a little better. Something that I've realized is sometimes when my clients listen completely to the depression, or listen to the anxiety, and don't act opposite, they often feel about the same or worse. But when they act opposite, when they do the opposite of how they feel, they often feel a little less. So not that it's not, you know, I'm not leaping off breathing, and I'm not. Rainbows aren't shooting out of places. But I'm just helps feel just a little bit more better, just a little bit more of that joy or happy feeling. And when they come back and tell me it, I am so proud of them no matter what they do. So even if it was even if they weren't able to just encouraging that, that sometimes that can build resilience, and how
KC 27:47
do I know what to listen to that day? Like I find that happening? Where it's like, okay, let's say that I'm in a funk that day, right? For whatever reason, we'll just say, fill in the blank. And I've got back to back meetings, and I'm having to decide, okay, I want to cancel all these meetings and lay down is should I do that? Because that's listening to myself, and I need a mental health day. And I need to pull back from, you know, the tyranny of productivity. And like, you know, that that would be like, that would be the growth thing for me to do, right? Or do I need to act opposite right now? Do I need to go take a short walk and go through these meetings? And like, how do I know in that moment, what the right choice is for me.
Dr. Patrice Berry 28:29
And I do think it'll vary based on the person's circumstance, because there are people that financially might not be able, let's say they get paid based on the meetings they have, they might have to do those meetings, often when people are doing this. And when we're teaching the ACT opposite skill, they often do it for other people, but not themselves. So if their child needs something, they do it, even if they don't feel like it. Or if their partner needs something, and they don't feel like it. Sometimes they still do it, but they don't give that to themselves. And so balancing some of that self care, that sometimes a part of self care, is also giving, listening to myself and realizing is this coming from a healthy part? Or is it from a less healthy part? And how will I feel after because maybe what I do is, maybe I cancel the later meetings, something that I do is I don't schedule meetings after like, 7pm because my brain I can't do that. I'm not a good therapist before 9am And after 7pm Like I'm just not and honoring that and being able to just say, Okay, I'm just gonna take this one little I'm do this one little thing for me, and how do they feel afterwards? Okay, so
KC 29:48
two things you said that I really catalogued. One was getting out of that black and white thinking like, oh, maybe there are more choices, then cancel them all and go to bed or push yourself there. All of them, right? Because I could cancel some of them. One of them, you know, one of them take a nap, finish early, whatever. And even in between that, like, one time I had where like my brain was just off that day. And I was like, What do I do? And instead of, you know, do I go to this meeting? Or do I not I went, you know, I think, though, like I was recording a podcast, I think that if I could turn my camera off, that like that would make it so much easier because of the amount of energy that goes into making eye contact and emoting and doing those things. And what I really wanted to do was, like, stare at nothing, and not have to think about whether I was like smiling, because then I could put all my energy into engaging the guest well, and I was like, why don't I just ask? And I did, I was like, Hey, is it okay? If I just turned my camera off? Because I'm like, I feel like my battery is so low. And I think sometimes it's hard for us to we're so perfectionistic about what's the right choice that we forget, there's a gray area. And then the other thing that you said that I loved was thinking about, like, how will I feel after this, because if it's a like I've learned for me, sometimes if it's a fatigue issue, like I have some chronic fatigue, and I go, Okay, if I push myself through all these meetings, I'm going to collapse, like, I'll get through the meetings, but then my kids will come home and I will have nothing left for them and I will be frustrated, and I will be angry and I will be snapping. Or if I had sometimes it's where it's like I know if I stay in bed all day, I'll feel like oh, about it at the end. versus, you know, if I push myself through this, sometimes it's like actually getting being on my feet will help me not feel as fatigued, like depending on the day and what's going on or with my ADHD, it's like, well, if I push myself through these meetings today, then I won't have to reschedule them. So I won't be as stressed. Like, I'll be so grateful I got it done.
Dr. Patrice Berry 31:53
Exactly. Because for I like that you said that it's doesn't have to be either or. And I heard that I'm accommodating myself that I'm just asking for those accommodations, where it's like, okay, I'm having an off day, which to me, what that does is that gives your guests the opportunity. Because if you had done that today, I would have turned my camera off too. And it would have been fine. And so I think communicating those things. I think that it just it lets us be human, and then also gives the other person permission. Because I would remember that that Oh, because I think sometimes we think oh, everybody's out here doing all these different things. And there is that toxic productivity, there really is where sometimes it feels good to get things done, which doesn't have to be bad, but I also have to balance rest as well.
KC 32:43
Yeah. And I think that, you know, I say a lot that shame is the enemy of functioning, which is like if I spend so much time trying to decide what the right choice is. And feeling as though you know, let's say that I do pick one. And then I feel blah, at the end of the day. It's like, okay, that's just information, we can be like curious about that, instead of like, well, I made the wrong choice. I'm going backwards. I'm not using my skills like so much of the time, I feel like healing or self improvement. We put it on this very like black and white linear scale where we're either like doing well, or we're doing poorly. And I think that like when I think about growing up and resilience, that was probably one of them, the biggest impacts in terms of like, shifting my thinking of building resilience was like not being so perfectionistic about getting it right when it came to like self improvement, because that kept me in that high anxiety. And then big fall out if I got it wrong. And
Dr. Patrice Berry 33:45
for me, so I was raised by a single mom. And everybody looked at me and thought I was incredibly resilient. And yet I was just a really good people pleaser. I was really good chameleon. And people didn't know and so I wish that I had had a safe space and nice, a great therapist that I could have met with to develop some of these skills earlier on. So I had to learn a lot as an adult as I was training to be a therapist that I really wish I had had much earlier. And so yes, kids can be resilient and resilient people sometimes go to therapy, resilient people take their medication resilient people because I think sometimes we think resilience is strong, which means you can be that individual you you can stand on your own. And I don't think we were meant to live life that way.
KC 34:34
That's great. Well, that's a really great note to end on. Because there is this view that resilience means strong. When really like resilience could you like what other word would you use if you had to give it to someone
Dr. Patrice Berry 34:51
so I think you can be I think it's adding that and or that yet so I can be resilient and cry. I can be resist Lilian and go to therapy. Or I can have a moment because something can happen. That's so just horrific in my life where I might not be as resilient in that moment. And I might need extra help and support to survive it. And then over time, I might get to the place where I'm more resilient, that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You are you aren't? Am I walking in a way that's bringing me closer to my goals? That's where I'm am I okay, with with how I am not comparing myself to other people.
KC 35:32
It's almost like it's just persistence. Like, can I figure out a way to keep going, that is sustainable, right, because if I, if I under do it, I'm going to kind of like slow down into the depression, or the mental health or the trauma and I'm not going to function at all. But I could also be overdoing it with the people pleasing and hyper productivity, and everything has to be perfect. Everything has to be and then I'll burn out. It's like neither one of those things is sustainable. And so like true resilience really is finding a way forward to where you can always keep going regardless of what's happening and how bad it is. That's actually sustainable. And sometimes you slow down and sometimes you speed up but you go forward in a sustainable way. I love it too. Well, Patrice, thank you so much for your time. Can you tell everybody where they can find you online if they want to know more and where your book is?
Dr. Patrice Berry 36:27
Thank you. I am at Dr. Patrice berry on tick tock, Instagram and YouTube. And my book is on Amazon and Kindle audiobook and then also paperback
KC 36:39
right and what's the name of it one
Dr. Patrice Berry 36:40
more time for the audience, turning crisis into clarity how to survive or thrive in the midst of uncertainty.
KC 36:47
Awesome. Well have a great rest of your day. You too.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai