Unknown Speaker 0:00
Hey
KC Davis 0:05
Hello you sentient sexy balls of stardust. This is struggle care, the podcast about self care by a host that hates the term self care. And today's episode is probably not the one you want to play in front of your kids. And if you are my mother or my father or my in laws, probably also not the episode that you want to listen to, unless you want way too many details about my sex life. So if you are neither a child nor related to me, carry on.
Welcome back to the struggle care podcast. I have an exciting guest today. You may know her as CatieSaurus from tick tock. It's Catie Osborne.
Catie Osborn 0:44
Hello. It's me. Catie Saurus. I don't know what I was going for there. It's right. Oh,
KC Davis 0:50
it's fine. Listen, guys, I prepared for this podcast by saying meet me at the maypole at 10am We're gonna do a podcast.
Catie Osborn 0:59
Live here from the maple.
KC Davis 1:01
We're live here from the maypole. That's about the amount of preparation that I put into this podcast, which is not a reflection on how excited I am or how important of a guest you are.
Catie Osborn 1:12
I feel like that just means that you have a lot of trust in me. So I'll take it as a compliment.
KC Davis 1:16
Well, I did have this thought of like people a lot of times when I'm on their podcast will like prepare questions ahead of time and send me questions. And I've definitely done that for people. But I'm also someone who is like, perfectly happy to like, just like rip off the hip. And I did have this slot where I was like, I'm super grateful that Katie is the one on the podcast. Because something tells me she could probably just go off the dome.
Catie Osborn 1:40
That's what my entire podcast is. That's what we do on our podcasts. We pick a topic and then we just go oh, what do you think about this topic? And then sometimes we wind up staying on topic and sometimes we end up like reviewing movies like it just it's you never know. So I get it.
KC Davis 1:55
Well, I'm super excited about our topic today. Speaking of topics, because as many of you maybe know, Katie and I both are over on Tik Tok. And we've had quite similar trajectories. I feel like we've been at the same follower count for months now. not static, but like when you grow I grow.
Catie Osborn 2:15
Boy, I sure hope you grow next week then because oh my god. I think I got 10 whole followers yesterday. It was really exciting. Oh, no, it's fine. We're all five.
KC Davis 2:26
Well, listen, if you're listening to this, you gotta go follow Katie. Okay,
Catie Osborn 2:30
go follow me. Well, I mean, listen to the podcast first, make your own informed decision. Make an assessment. So hey, Casey, what are we talking about today? Well, okay, we're
KC Davis 2:39
going to talk about sex today. So sex and ADHD, this is an interesting cross section most of your content about ADHD. Yes. And then you started this series about sex and ADHD, which is fascinating to me. So tell me how this came about to be a topic of combo. Okay.
Catie Osborn 2:55
So well, how do you want the long story, the medium story? I want whatever story you want to tell. Okay. So my relationship with sex has always been really interesting, because I grew up in a very conservative, very religious household. And so sex and our bodies were, I was raised thinking that they were very shameful, and you know, something to be like, embarrassed about, and we didn't talk about. But what that also meant was that I didn't have a really good understanding about my sexuality, and about my body and that kind of thing. And so then, as I got older, that was kind of something that I wanted to take back, I wanted to empower myself to like, sort of understand myself in that way. And so I got really into like kink and that kind of thing. And I started educating on kink and that type of stuff. And then after I got diagnosed with ADHD, I started doing some research, but at the time, it wasn't specifically about just, you know, ADHD, neurodivergent, the effects. But I started looking into, you know, just ADHD has effect on our lives. And what I was, I don't know why I was surprised. But I was surprised to find out that ADHD isn't just a school thing. It's not just a work thing. It affects every facet of our lives, including stuff like orgasms. And when I learned that my mind was quite literally blown. And so I started sort of like studying and secret to become a certified sex educator, because I'm one of those people where if I tell people, I'm going to do it, then I won't do it. And then, you know, and then they asked you six months later, and it's embarrassing. So I totally held in secret for a year and I took a lot of classes and did a lot of work to become a certified sex educator. But the thing that solidified it for me and I tell the story a lot, but I like it because I think it's really important. So in the middle of one of my classes, it was being taught by this very neurotypical man who was just kind of like, you know, talking about sex stuff. But there was a class that we were taking about, like, you know, what happens when sex gets interrupted, what happens when, you know, like, you fall off the bed or something goes wrong, and he very cavalierly said, you know, You just don't have to worry about it, the moment is not precious. It's not you don't have to worry about it, you can just laugh it off, come back. And I was like, that is so counterintuitive to everything that I know and understand about sex because like, Yes, I agree, you should be able to just, you know, laugh it off and come back. But if I fall off the bed, you know, like, I run the risk of noticing that the carpet needs to be vacuumed, or like looking out the window and realizing that the UPS truck is here, or whatever it may be. And so I asked, and I said, Well, what about people with ADHD? You know, like, what about people who do get very distracted, or like, task initiation or that kind of stuff, and I really got blown off. And that was one of the first moments where I realized how much of the conversation about sex and intimacy surrounds the assumption that both or all parties involved, I guess, just to say, are neurotypical and able bodied. And once I started really thinking about what I had learned, and really started unpacking what I had learned, I realized that like, there weren't conversations happening in like, a large scale way. And I thought, well, I have the platform, and I have this very vested interest in this topic. So I guess I'll become the lady on Tiktok, who talks about sex and ADHD? Viet?
KC Davis 6:14
I love it. Okay, so I actually binge watched a bunch of these tech talks recently to prepare for us talking. And that was the one that stood out to me the most, where the guy said, like, well, the moments not fragile.
Catie Osborn 6:27
Yeah, yes, it is.
KC Davis 6:29
And I was like, oh, no, yeah. I mean, I get what he's saying. But also, like, I definitely more relate to what you're saying, where like, when you get in that zone, there's this like, Okay, I'm in tune with my body, I'm in tune with my partner, I'm feeling my sensations. I'm enjoying myself. And it's almost like you have these like really fragile blinders on. And there's this tightrope of like, okay, if I think too much about how it's going, well, if I think too much about how I'm in the moment, then I will take myself out of the moments.
Catie Osborn 7:13
Yes, that happens to me all the time.
KC Davis 7:16
And I was like, it is fragile, like being in that sort of, like, erotic zone, where you have to pay a high Oh, no, but you're right. It's fragile.
Catie Osborn 7:30
Yeah. And the thing that I think is fascinating is that there have only been a handful of studies because I'm like, I'm very, like, I'm the academic one, or I'm just like, I'm gonna go research. But there's only been a couple of studies done, but like, they all kind of agree that about 40% of everybody with ADHD, irregardless of gender struggles in some way with sex or sexual dysfunction. But the other thing that I think is really interesting is that one of the most frustrating things about having conversations about sex and sexuality is the terminology of sexual dysfunction. Because what is actually more accurate for a lot of people is what like I would say is like, sexual disappointment, right? Where it's not like there's anything medically wrong with you. It's not like there's something that is not working. It's just not how you want it to be. And that can be even more frustrating, right? Because like, if you know, a person with a penis goes to the doctor. And they're like, oh, no, I'm having trouble with sex. The doctor can say, Oh, you have erectile dysfunction, congratulations, and like, move on with your day. But with like ADHD, where like, symptomatically, it's I'm checking out during sex, or I'm having a hard, I like the Bailey founder square your toy, right? When I got to most serious discussion. I got a dog listeners. And I regret giving her squeaky toys. That's what I learned. But you know, like with ADHD, it can be really hard to look at it and say, Okay, well, I'm checking out during sex, or I'm struggling to stay focused during sex, or I'm struggling to get in the mood during sex. That is not a dysfunction. That's not something that is like clinically wrong with you. It just means that there is like a struggle there or like extra work that you have to do. And so sometimes the first step, and even having a conversation about sex and about intimacy is like unpacking the toxic ideas that we have about sex and about intimacy and like that it's supposed to be this one way or it's supposed to be easy, or you're supposed to be, you know, turned on at the drop of a hat. And that's just not the case. And I think that is, that's a big part of it is in the conversation about neuro divergence is also just really starting to unpack the expectations versus sort of like reality of intimacy as a whole. So it becomes very large very quickly.
KC Davis 9:51
One of the things that you talked about one of your tic TOCs that I thought was really meaningful was that when you talk about quote unquote sexual dysfunction or sexual troubles. You mentioned troubles getting aroused, but then you specifically mentioned trouble staying aroused. And that's something that I feel like it's not talked about a lot when we talk about sex and problems with sex, because the focus is so much on penetration in sort of a heteronormative view that we focus on getting aroused as being like the most important thing because like, if you have a penis, like you have to get aroused for, like the mechanics to work, and if you're a woman, you have to get aroused for the mechanics to not be painful, right, like, so we sort of focus because we have such a penetrative view of sex, it's like, well, as long as we can get the P and the V, like the, which should be smooth sailing after that. But the reality is, I think, especially as someone with ADHD, that feeling of kind of needing to stay ahead in the game to really be in the experience. But also, you know, if you get into a stretch, where you're thinking, like, Oh, God, I'm losing it, I'm losing it, I'm losing it. Because you know, there's something that changed in the environment, or in the move or in the position. And if you're not in a place where you've worked and talk with your partner about being able to vocalize at that moment, hey, position change, or like, hey, Nope, we're gonna go left, not right, we're gonna go up, not down, we're gonna go, whatever, whatever, because you feel like it should always just flow, it should always just be this magical, you know, like, whatever is that then you find yourself in that spot where as you feel the arousal waning in the middle of the sex act, you get into that like meta headspace of like, it's okay. Okay, oh, God, get it back, get back, get back, get back. In my experience, like, once you get into that space of almost not overthinking it, but almost like having like meta thoughts about the experience, it's like it's over. So one of the things
Catie Osborn 11:53
that I find to be really interesting, and really sort of like, along with that is that in working with a lot of neurodivergent, people, sort of like, regardless of what your neurodivergent it is, a lot of neurodivergent people struggle to know what they want, or struggle to articulate their needs, or feel like they can't, and that is like a really big one. And a lot of that comes out of trauma, it comes out of living with an undiagnosed neurodivergent See, or feeling like there's something inherently wrong with you, or feeling broken or feeling guilty about it, or all of these sort of like, very negative emotions that are associated with, you know, the experience of late diagnosis. And so then it wants to be missing where the conversation is never just about ADHD, it's never just about intimacy. It's never just about this, like one thing. It's just like massive, sort of like tangled yarn ball of like, the effects that ADHD has your on your, you know, attention span, but also then the trauma of not being able to articulate what you want, or having gotten in trouble a lot for asking for stuff over and over again. And so it can be really difficult for a neurodivergent person to even start to like find, you know, the thread to pull on. That's like, Okay, well, how do I get into my body? How do I figure out what I need? How do I figure out what I want? And that I don't have a good answer for. But one of the things that I talk about a lot is that is that specific experience of struggling to articulate needs and struggling to articulate wants, because I think it's important for other people to hear that they're not alone. They're not the only person who struggles to articulate or struggles to know what they want. And that I think sometimes can be, I don't wanna say more important, but I think it's a really important part of the process, when you're starting to think about sex and sexuality as it relates to your neurodivergent SE. Does that make any sales?
KC Davis 13:55
Because it comes to my mind is like when you spend the majority of your life particularly as a sort of person socialized as a female living as a female, like, you and your neurodivergent? Like, you basically have a history of being told You're too much. Yep. Right, you're too much Calm down, wait, your turn, quit interrupting. And not only that, you're told that you're too much, but you're told that you're too muchness is relating to a character defect, like you're selfish or self absorbed, you're an attention whore like, and so we develop this shame about our personalities and we learn how to perform at such a young age. So that you know whether I'm in the classroom or with friends, like I learned to constantly have this meta narrative dialogue about my behavior and about my experience. Okay, when was it okay for me to talk? Okay, wait, wait, wait, okay, and go right or like, Okay, I just set a thing. I just did a thing. Okay. Was that too much? Was it enough? Do they think this? And one of the things you talk about a couple of people, I think you read come As you are the book, and come as you are as a great book, if anyone wants to read up on sex, and then there's another figure, did you study Esther Parral at all? Okay, so both of these figures I am obsessed with, and they really represent what I think as a therapist is a much better way of thinking about sex. Because if anyone's listening, like if you've ever been to like old school, like sex therapy, it's very weird. And it's very old. It's very based in like, Well, men have needs and men need sex to feel intimate, and why don't you just schedule sex and and God help you if you were ever in like a religious context where they talked about like duty and sacrifice and serving. And I think that this idea that they talk about income as you are, and that Esther Perel talks about where sex, to be, like good sex to be intimate sex, it requires that there not be that meta narrative dialogue, that you just are authentically yourself, and you're coming to claim your pleasure, and you're coming to interact with this other being, and there's this freeness and this abandon and the surrender. And obviously, there has to be trust and safety and all of those things for that to happen. But it makes sense why someone who is neurodivergent would really struggle because not only do we have trouble sort of paying attention, but it's not as though paying attention has to do with distraction. I mean, it can as much as it has to do with like, we did have not had practice turning off that meta narrative Nair, like a dialogue that we constantly have about our behavior.
Catie Osborn 16:45
Yeah, absolutely.
KC Davis 16:46
To just focus on experiencing, I'll say this, I was the most like, helpful thing I ever heard from a sex therapist, that is kind of like up on the new research about sex is he said that the first thing he does with couples that come in, that are struggling with intimacy is he says, He tells them to stop referring to sex as a need, and stop referring to like drive like, oh, low drive, high drive all these things. But he said that because as I stare, Pearl says, like, obligation is the opposite of eroticism. Like, if you are just trying to do you're good little, you know, neurodivergent girl thing and like read the room, gain the expectations, get the rules, and then perform like you might perform well, but you're not going to experience it in a way that's fulfilling for your view, at least eventually, right? And so yeah, he says, I want to get rid of these words like need and drive. Because when you say to your partner, I have a high sex drive, and I have a need, and I need you to meet my needs, it automatically puts your partner in the seat of obligation and duty and service. And particularly if you live life, as a woman, we're already told that our whole lives are about obligation and duty and service. He said, It is so different. He said, you don't have a need for sex, you have a desire for sex, but I'm not downplaying it. Like it's an important desire. And it's such a different experience to go to your partner and say, I have a deep burning desire to have a passionate, intimate sex life with you. Yeah. And inviting them into a space where you're asking them to unfold, you're asking them to abandon you're asking them to meet you in this place that only the two or three or however many of you, right can be in this intimate space where you are invited to turn off this meta narrative, you are invited to surrender and be authentically just who you are and lose yourself in the experience. He's like, how much like, that'll get your panties wet. Right? It's such a different way.
Catie Osborn 19:00
It's so much better. I mean, and maybe I'm working too hard to like, shoehorn it into like a tight little point. But like, for me, a lot of times that conversation around like sex drive and like this, like idea that like, oh, I need sex or whatever. A lot of times, like, especially with sex drive, and like libido, I related a lot like when I'm talking and like doing like speaking stuff, to the idea of like high functioning versus low functioning, because I hate that. And it's such like a problematic take on support needs. But like high functioning, low functioning, high sex drive, low sex drive, according to who, according to what measure according to what metric, are we deciding that? Well, you have, you know, your low functioning or you have low sex drive or whatever, because and this is like, honestly, I'm not even embarrassed to say this. This is something I didn't know until I was literally 30 years old is that sex drive is as defined by the individual sex drive is not there's not like a board of sex drive guys who decided, like, if you think about sex four times a day, that's Hi, you know, and if you like, it was one of those things where like, I just always disliked thought that there was just this understanding that sex drive is like a readable metric one through
KC Davis 20:21
10 There's like a valid scale, like out there. Yeah,
Catie Osborn 20:25
yeah. You know, it's like the smiley face chart at the hospital. But it's like, no, like, your sex drive is entirely based only on you, and only on your experience, and sex drive weights, it waxes and wanes, you know, like, it is very, very natural and very, very normal to have peaks and valleys in your desire, especially when you're in a safe and supportive and healthy relationship. Because like, sometimes, you know, you got to just deal with like, the in laws or whatever, and there's not time for intimacy. And sometimes it's like game on, you know, with this idea that there's like, one right way to live and experience sex drive. And there's one right way, you know, for, like, whatever it may be, that I think is also one of the most damaging things that I like, a lot of times, that's what I have to start with, like, I don't even have start with the questions about ADHD or neurodivergent. Se, what I start with is questions like, well, you know, my partner needs to have sex three times a week, but I want sex one time a month, what do I do? And I'm like, have a conversation about your mismatched desires, and don't do anything you don't want to do? Like, that's step one. And that's what I think is really interesting, because again, it's we're talking about socialization, we're talking about, like, patriarchy stuff, we're talking about, like white supremacy stuff. And it gets so large, so quickly, that it's like, I love talking about this. But I always have this little bit of dread, because it's like, I can't fix everything. And I can't talk about everything all at one time. But that's like, that's where my brain goes, is just really thinking about that a lot. I don't know what I was going where I was going with that, but it's fine.
KC Davis 22:07
No, but I'm glad that you went there. Because here's what I think like, I also come from an evangelical background, I still practice in the Christian faith, but I do not belong to a church. And I would consider myself a somebody who has deconstructed that evangelical vein. And I think that because I've had a lot of experience with marriage therapists in that world. And I think a good bit of sex therapy, in general is really heavily influenced by those Puritan values. And those ideas that like, Well, men need sex and men's brains are like waffles and women's brains are like spaghetti, and all of this fucking junk science about how we have gendered brains that are so different. And you know, men need sex to feel loved, and they need respect. But women need love to feel it. It's just it's so wrong. But one of the things is, is like if you are someone who is going to go to therapy to talk about sex, and the first thing your therapist starts talking about is sex. They don't know what they're talking about, yes, 100%, because we are so influenced by white supremacy. And we are so influenced by capitalism, and we are so influenced by the trauma of being neurodivergent, or the heteronormative sort of values. And like, there's so many things that are affecting our sex lives, that we don't know, that we have to unpack or at least investigate before we can even get to a place that answers the question of what do I do if I'm, you know, I want it once a month, and he wants it three months, you know, three times a month or a week or whatever. Like, there are so many layers here. And just I mean, as everything in our lives is complicated, like we don't check those things at the door when we go into the bedroom.
Catie Osborn 24:01
Yeah. And one of the things that I struggle with the most is that is, I think, just like the fundamental misunderstanding of how ADHD affects adults, because like, I mean, honestly, the reason why I started doing all of this and doing what I do is because I just got fed up with reading literature that like seemed to imply that like, on your 18th birthday, when you become an adult, the ADHD fairy comes and you're cured, you know, and like, just like the insidious way that like ADHD is discussed, where it's like, oh, you know, like, I don't know 15% of kids have ADHD, but seemingly only 3% of adults have ADHD. It's like no, those people still have ADHD. They just learned strategies and coping mechanisms and their ADHD is such that they can exist without like needing medication that doesn't make ADHD go away. But because there is so much like fundamental misunderstanding about what neurodivergent see is What ADHD is what autism is whatever it may be that then you immediately start running into stuff like, well, ADHD is just a school thing, or it's just a work thing, or it's just a keeping your house clean thing, or it's just a that thing, but it's like, no ADHD is, like I said earlier, it is entwined in every single aspect of everything we do. And then on top of that, you have a lot of like those universal experiences, like rejection sensitivity, and struggling with, you know, like you said, the trauma of neurodivergent. Se. And so, when you start having conversations, like I agree, like, I really don't think you can start with sex, like you have to start with the individual and the individuals experience of navigating through the world. But it's so much easier to just go, oh, well, you could schedule sex for Thursday's. And it's like, that's not getting to the root of anything. It's, you know,
KC Davis 25:56
and like, anytime a therapist, or somebody gives the advice of like, well, you know, you just have to maybe do it sometimes when you don't want to as an act of love. It's like that's not the answer. Because truly, truly, truly one of my favorite phrases is that neurons that wire together, fire together. And it just means that like, if you're doing a behavior in a specific emotional context, enough times, your brain will begin to associate that emotional context with that behavior. And it will get to the point where even if you're not in that emotional place, you will not be able to do that behavior without bringing on those emotions. Yeah, so if the more times you have sex, when you don't want to, the more times your brain will associate sex with something that is not something you want to do. And so even if you're in a position where Oh, no, I want it you hid in the bedroom, or the kitchen or the backseat of your car or whatever, and your brain will start to shut things down, it'll shut your body down, it'll shut your mind down. Because your brain, you fed your brain, this script, like you've literally given it a piece of code that says, sex is something that we just get through sex is something we distract ourselves to get through sex is something that isn't about our pleasure, it's about their pleasure. And you can't just decide that you're not going to use that piece of code without like a good bit of debugging. And every time you do obligatory sets, you reinforce those neural pathways, and random swing, and here, but I was thinking about how the reward, motivation interest of somebody with ADHD is different than someone who's neurotypical. And I'm sure people have heard this before, if they've looked into ADHD, when they talk about having interest based motivation systems we talk about, I think it's like interest, competition, novelty and urgency. One of the things that occurs to me is that I think that you when you're young, when you're dating, you may not have had any sexual issues. But then you get with a partner. And if you decide to be monogamous with that partner, fast forward months or years, and all of a sudden, you're struggling with things with sex that you never have before, and you're going what's wrong with me? Do I not love this person and do it like all these things. And to me, it's just so obvious that it dating, or in your that honeymoon phase, or you have multiple partner, whatever, like your sex is naturally going to have a sense of novelty and urgency and interest to it. And then fast forward, if you're in a monogamous relationship, or maybe it's not even a monogamous relationship, you just have a committed partner, even if it's an open relationship, or a poly relationship. And all of a sudden, like, sex is familiar. It doesn't have those qualities anymore. And as somebody with ADHD, like you actually have to then create those qualities again, and you're in the bedroom.
Catie Osborn 28:59
Yeah, I mean, and it's, I mean, this is the point where I always feel bad because I'm always just like, I swear, I'm not trying to recruit anybody to my team. But like, it's one of the reasons why I got so invested in like, educating about kink, because I I really do think that kink is one of the most powerful tools that a person with ADHD has in their toolbox for things like the novelization of ADHD, you know, or like intimacy with ADHD or you know, the, I don't know the shaking of things up with ADHD and it's so funny to me because like a lot of times I think people hear kink and they think like, you know, whips and chains and signing contracts and going to dungeons which like if you're into it cool. But when I talk about kink what I mostly just mean is exploring things since orally because that is very much like you know, if you boil it down and boil it down at its very core kink is simply a, I think, deeper exploration of the individual senses and how they tie into the intimate experience. And so, you know, things like, you know, the one that I always, like wind up giving an example of is like, you know, a lot of people say, well, it's really hard for me to stay in the moment during sex, because, you know, I look around and I see like, the messy bedroom, or I'm looking at the dusty ceiling fan or whatever, and I go cool, wear a blindfold. Problem solved, you know, and people go, Oh, that's so this is so kinky. Oh, my gosh, oh, and I'm like, but try it. See what happens. You know, for other people like me, especially like this is one that I do is I really like wearing like wireless earbuds during intimacy because like my neighbor, most his lawn 97 times a week, it is the weirdest I don't know what that dude is doing. But he is retired, and he is living his best grass mowing life. But it's so hard for me because you know, we'll be in the middle of something. And then the lawnmower starts and I'm like, Well, there's a noise, you know, but it's like, you know, what, this is that having music that I'm just listening to, that is technically considered cake, like now that's like the most, you know, cool with you, you know, vanilla cake ever. But you know, stuff like that. And so it's like finding, there's no shame in finding clever and creative and resourceful workarounds. When it comes to feeling like that novelty is wearing off or feeling like that urgency has worn off, because like, I don't want to speak for every person with ADHD. But I can say, personally, I sabotaged so many good relationships, because I didn't have an understanding of what a healthy stable relationship look like. Because my frame of reference, especially when I was younger, was movies and TV. And you know, I talked about this on tick tock the other day, but like, movies and TV, there's never a scene where the couple sits down and says, Hey, I love you so much. But like, oral really doesn't do it for me. And it's awkward when you do it. And I feel weird. So like, could we find that, like, that scene doesn't exist on TV, you know? And so it's like, there's this idea that like, for true intimacy, or, you know, by extension, true love to exist. Intimacy and sex is this act of mind reading it is this act of like, immediately being ready to go with a drop of a hat and being able to turn on and you know, whatever parts you have the arousal, is there enough and good and working and functional, and everybody's in the mood and there's, you know, no laundry that needs to be, you know, put into the dryer. It's very, I don't even say sanitized, but it's a very sensationalized idea of what intimacy really is.
KC Davis 32:42
What's really cinematic like, yeah, like, never is there the scene where, like, you know, you crawl into bed with your partner, and they go, I love you, but you smell Yeah. Will you take a shower before we do this? And yeah, it's just, it really is so huge, because so many people I think, that are struggling, are locked into this, they think it's a foregone conclusion that if they're struggling with this, it has something to do with their partner, or they are broken. So like, we immediately go to either I as a person and broken or I don't want to share any of this with my partner, because I don't want them to think it's their fault. Like, I don't love them, like, I'm not attracted to them. And I think that it's so important that we normalize having these conversations. And the other thing that's wild, like, we think that having those kinds of conversations is going to like, be really not sexy, like, Oh, it's so administrative, it's so whatever. But here's what I have found, like, intimacy is so much more than just sex, like intimacy has to do with connection. And I was so surprised to learn that having those conversations was very intimate for me. And I don't mean intimate, like, you know, candlelight, like, Ooh, I have butterflies in my stomach. But especially with a long term partner, having those kinds of conversations are very connecting, like just talking about your relationship talking, like the feeling of, we're on the same team, and we're like, we're in the trenches, and we're gonna figure this out, we're gonna have the best sex I've ever we're gonna eat like, that is the camaraderie that happens there. If both of you approach it in that way, is like builds a lot of intimacy. And that intimacy helps you in the bedroom and I just love I love when you talk about kink. And I think that for a lot of people, like you said, they hear kink and they go right to like whips and chains and dungeons, instead of really having this or they go to like, if they have a background from church, they go to like perversion, like that's the word that they associated with it. Instead of like, play like that should be where our mind goes when we hear kink is play.
Catie Osborn 34:55
Oh, I have so many thoughts. But I mean, I do want to say one thing about what you just said is I think that there's like a third component that sometimes happens is like, you know, people either think it's a commentary on me or I don't want to hurt their feelings. But the third option, and this is one that I get a lot in the work that I do is that having to have that conversation is some kind of red flag about the relationship. And that the need to sit down and discuss, I shouldn't have to ask for him to tell me that I love that he loves me, I shouldn't have to ask him to bring me flowers, I shouldn't have to ask her to you know, remember to load the dishwasher, whatever it may be. There's this idea. And again, I think it I really think it goes back to like, I always hate saying the media. But I think in this case, it is applicable. Like I think it goes back to like the media and those sort of like patriarchal standards of like communication is somehow bad. Communicating somehow implies a problem having to sit down and talk about, you know, whatever your needs may be, that's not an intimate thing. That's a thing to be feared. And that's like, one of the biggest things that I constantly fight against in my work is like, why shouldn't have to ask for him to tell me that he loves me. It's like, well, it should be automatic. And it should always be exactly what I need it. And you know, I always kind of look and it's I try to be very like, you know, non judgmental, because that's important. But I find myself looking at at a lot of people and saying, Well, how will he know that you need to hear I love you. Unless you tell him that you need to hear I love it. Well, he should just know. Well, he just told you that he grew up in a house where you know, people didn't say I love you. So that's not a behavior that he knows, and that he appreciates the same way that you do. And then they look at each other and go, Oh, well, that makes sense. But that that immediate jump to having to talk about it implies a problem, I think is so indicative of like, the culture that we're living in this culture of like, we especially like people who have been socialized as women, like articulating our needs, somehow makes us a less than partner or a worse partner. And it's exactly the opposite. It is exactly the opposite. In like having those conversations breeds intimacy, it breeds vulnerability. It breeds trust, it breeds communication. And that makes for better sex. Because when you feel connected and trusted and able to be open with somebody, you're gonna have better sex. That's just that's just that's science.
KC Davis 37:27
I think, you know, we've sort of been talking a lot about from the perspective of somebody who is female, presenting or socialized as a woman. But when I think about somebody who was raised as a man or presents as a man, or who's been basically living under the male script of patriarchy, I think that a lot of men have been socialized to be uncomfortable talking about emotion, uncomfortable talking about something that's in progress, right? Because they're supposed to fix it. And it's not supposed to be emotional. And so they look at the act of sex as their one way to get emotional closeness or intimacy. And so when you say, well, we can have this conversation and this conversation for one party might feel very intimate talking about the ins and outs and the nuts and bolts, whereas like, I can definitely see someone living under a patriarchal script of masculinity, being extremely uncomfortable in those conversations and feeling vulnerable and feeling like I don't feel close. When we talk about this, I feel laid bare. I feel insecure. I feel like we're talking about things that I have failed at. And I have been told culturally from a white supremacist culture from patriarchal culture that if I fail, I am worthless. And so they're just again, it's hugely powerful things to unpack before you even get to the bedroom, if you will. I want to ask you about one of your most popular series, which I have thoroughly enjoyed, and is probably the reason that I realized that I am I too am.
Catie Osborn 39:01
Oh, do you want me to do it? Is it a burnout gifted and talented semester? Brat with price kink?
KC Davis 39:05
Oh, yeah, I want you to do it. Haha. Yes. Okay, just talk to us about this.
Catie Osborn 39:10
Well, what would you I don't know what you want me to talk about. For the listeners
KC Davis 39:15
at home? What does it mean to be a burnt out talented gifted kid, submissive brat with a praise kink?
Catie Osborn 39:21
So do you like how I always cleverly managed to bring it back to neurodiversity? Like it's just I'm shoehorning it in so hard, right? Like I think one of the more interesting things that I have learned and also experienced in my own life is that for a lot of again, I'm talking about the socializes woman experience in this capacity, but for a lot of people who have lived that experience with undiagnosed neurodivergent sees they often get thrown into the gifted kid program, because neurodivergent kids tend to be really good at like certain stuff. Now there are certainly there's also the experience of neurodivergent kids who unfortunately get You know, the remedial behavioral problems? Yeah, remedial, which is also like just as unfair for its own set of reasons. But my experience was being an undiagnosed neurodivergent kid who got thrown into gifted programs because I was extremely good at school. So already off the bat, like my experience with ADHD was not that I was failing out of school where I was struggling at school, school was my time to shine, school was the thing that I had, and the place where I would get the accolades and I would get the recognition and I was in every club and every, you know, straight A's and all that stuff.
KC Davis 40:31
Do you want to know how I refer to that I would love to being smart, was the driftwood that I clung to in a sea of insecurity.
Catie Osborn 40:40
That's how I know that you've written a book, because that's a good author wordings, but like, but that was it was like, and for a lot of people, you're exactly right, that is the driftwood that they cling to. And so a lot of people develop this sort of like identity as like, I'm good at school, and I'm smart, and I'm gifted, I'm the gifted kid or whatever. And then this thing happens, where you graduate, and or, you know, you do what I do, and you go to grad school three more times, because you just feel like you can't get enough. But then like, at some point, you don't have anybody to tell you that you're doing a good job. And you don't have anybody to say, Oh, my God, you're so smart. And this is amazing. And you're you have so much potential, because now you're like, 35, you know, you're like, What am I doing. And so like I jokingly started talking about, like being a burnt out gifted and talented submissive brat with a price cake. And it turned out that there is a hell of a lot of us out there on the old tiktoks. But I think that I make a lot of jokes about that series, because that's kind of like my fun, you know, like, silly series. But I also think that there's something like deeply truthful about that, living that experience of being, you know, somebody who comes from that world of, you know, gifted and talented programs, and now feeling older and feeling more grown up, but still wanting to hear that good job and still wanting to hear that like, Yeah, wow, that was you did a good job a plus. And so for a lot of people, so just shows up as a praise cake, or just, you know, enjoying praise. And so yeah, and so I started that series very facetiously. But one of the things that has come out of it is honestly just like a profound appreciation for the community of people who sort of like identify along that line, because it's like, it can be really, I don't want to say hard, but it can be really challenging to navigate the world and have these places where, like, you really want to hear the good job, and you really want to get the accolades, but like, where do you get them now that you're 35? And so it turns out that turns out the answer is Bucha. Jobs, answers blow jobs, and no, like, you know, occasionally go on to the next budget, or whatever it may be for you. Yeah, but yeah,
KC Davis 42:51
every time I hear you talk, I just have this overwhelming sense of like, are we the same person? We
Catie Osborn 42:55
might be? I've been, I've been thinking about it. You have cooler tattoos.
KC Davis 42:59
I also went to grad school, literally, because I finished college and thought, Oh, God, I am not ready to be an adult. I will just keep going to school. Yeah, so I had a similar experience in school. And my was interesting, because I was very good at school, I was very intelligent. I was one of those like, oh, let's pick you out at seventh grade to go take the SATs, like that kind of thing. But I never ever did homework, because ADHD, like, like, go home. And I just can't make my own structure around those things. But I loved to learn. And so for a lot of people with experiences, they do really well in school, and then they get out of school. And then they have this disappointment of I'm not changing the world. Actually, I didn't amount to anything, I just am a normal person with a normal job. And my experience was a little bit different. Because what happened, my drop off was high school. Because what happened was, I went to a school where the way that they weighted grades was that tests, quizzes, participation, and like classwork were the majority of your grade. And your homework was like a very small percentage. So even though I never ever, ever, ever did my homework, I was the girl whose hand was always raised, I could sit there and listen to the lecture, not take any notes. And then a week later, take a quiz or a test and get 100 on it, because I would retain all of the information. It made sense it was this interconnected web of concepts in my mind. But what happened was, even though I did get in trouble about the homework, I'd never gotten too much trouble. I was still making straight A's. When I went to college, I went to an all girls private prep school, and two things happened. Number one, they started testing us on things that they didn't teach us in class. Now we'll get you right like I'm gonna teach chapters one through three and then you're gonna go home and read and learn chapters four and five, and then we're going to get a test over all of it when you come back. And because I wasn't doing homework, and I didn't know how and I had no Gill's to figure out how to structure myself for that, I quickly started failing tests. And they also changed the way that they weighted grades. So now the work you were doing outside of class had a much bigger impact on the class grade. And so I started failing, literally failing. EFS, DDS, I ended up having a lot of behavior problems, addiction problems, I got expelled from that private school. And so, you know, whether it's that experience, or like your experience, but it's the same thing, it's this, like, you get identified early as just being inherently better than everyone else.
Catie Osborn 45:38
And it's so damaging, it's so damaging. And when that eventually
KC Davis 45:43
falls off, you, you're like, Well, this was all I had, I was the smart girl, I was the competent girl, I was the girl that was better than everybody else. And then all the sudden, like you said, you're in grad school, or you're in the workforce, or you're just like a regular adult. And we don't know where to go anymore. Yeah.
Catie Osborn 46:02
And I love like, your story is so interesting to me, because like, I feel like we are, we're the same person. But like, we literally took the two paths that we see undiagnosed neurodivergent, especially girls go through where you where there's that point of change, there's that point of the structure has broken down. And for a lot of people, it's going into college, for a lot of people, it's when they get married, or they you know, they move out and they're like, on their own for the first time. You know, for some kids, it's high school, but for for like the vast majority, it does tend to be college. But it is exactly what you just said, like you, you know, left school, you're dealing with addiction you're dealing with like behavioral stuff. And then I went the opposite way, I was the person who threw myself in with this, like desperate clinging on to this idea that I had to be the best and I had to be perfect and whatever. So I'm gonna go earn two degrees that I don't really need, you know, and like all of this up, just to keep proving myself over and over and over. But that is like that's kind of like the path, you know, you can either
KC Davis 47:10
because perfect is the only option. And so it actually creates two paths, you can continue to pursue perfect, or you can go anti perfect, and I'm going to be the most perfect drug addict, I'm going to be the most perfect, like Kurt Cobain feeling, you know, like, just tragic. I'm going to embrace this tragic beauty Fallout, I'm not even going to try anymore. Because if I try and fail, I'll have to own up to me being a failure. But if I don't try it all, if I don't try it all, Katie and I just go use a bunch of drugs, then I just get to tell myself, while I'm, you know, the failure of society, but then I get to tell myself, it's just because I didn't try. I mean, I am smarter than everyone. I am better than everyone, but I'm not participating in society. Yeah, that's why, right. Okay, so this is the burnt out, talented and gifted part. And then the next part is the submissive part. And I will tell you this, like it folds right in because I find that if you're someone who has been sort of labeled, competent, strong, extrovert, like those things, if you've just always sort of been in control, there is something about being in a position and being allowed to be safely submissive. That is, like, so relieving.
Catie Osborn 48:36
Yeah. Well, it's for me, especially like, it's like, I think, again, people here submissive, and what they sometimes like, fill in the blank is like perversion, you know, or like trauma, or like, whatever. And it's like, no, like, I always explain it, like, a lot, like, and I think a lot of neurodivergent people get this, but it's like, at the end of the day, I'm exhausted from making decisions, because every decision that I have to make throughout the day, is just another like, you know, emotional expenditure. It's another spoon that I'm spending on whatever. And sometimes, I don't want to have to do that I'm tired, I'm exhausted or whatever. And the safety of having a partner who I trust and I, you know, I've communicate with and that kind of thing, but just looking at and being able to say, I just want to turn my brain off, you know, it doesn't even have to be a sex thing. Like the majority of you know, what I would say is, you know, my submissive right with a price tag is like, I let Chris choose what he wants for dinner. Like we just if you pick where we're going for dinner, I don't care, you know, like that kind of stuff. Like it doesn't have to be like overtly sexual, but sometimes it's nice because like circling all the way back to kind of the beginning of the conversation, it can be so hard for me to turn off my brain it can be is so deep to call for me to get into my body like that is one of the hardest things for me is to just be present and be there in the moment and be like, okay, like, I'm going to experience this intimacy with you. And so being able to just kind of look at a person that I love deeply and trust and say, and I'm sort of giving you the keys because I don't want to drive like that it can be, it's such a relief, it feels like a sigh, you know, like that kind of thing.
KC Davis 50:26
The sigh and I also to me, it's also connected to like being told my whole life that I'm too intimidating. Yeah, for the people that I'm attracted to. And so like, and like you said, it doesn't have to even be sexual or in the bedroom or any of that like, but to have this moment of being told, it's okay to wilt. Like, you're not too intimidating for me, like, I will step up to the challenge. Like you're and it's, there's something deeply affirming about for me the messaging of your worth stepping up to the challenge, I see you where no one else sees you, right. Everyone else is intimidating. But I see, I see someone that will I can turn to putty in my hand. So there's this aspect of intimacy of like, I see you.
Catie Osborn 51:15
Well, that's also I feel like that's like, that's where we get to like the next one, which is like the brat, right? Because for me, like, you know, like, I feel like, I don't know, branding. I think it's like a bad rap. Because like, a lot of times a lot of like there are a lot of I will say it, I can say what I want. I'm an adult. Like there's a lot of toxic brats in the kink community who really like foist that onto people like their branding, non consensually, and I don't get down with that. But what I do, like, what will absolutely like drop my panties Is that is that notion of like, you are worth it, like you're worth the work, you're worth the investment. And like for me, I think it is it is reinforcing to myself, that like I am desirable, and that I am valid as I am, you know, but that looks like presenting a little bit of a challenge because like I want to feel desired. And I want to feel like my asking you to take the keys, you know, and drive isn't an inconvenience. And I think a lot of that ties in also with like rejection sensitivity in a major way. But I've spent so long I've spent so much of my life, apologizing for my existence, and apologizing for taking up space, and apologizing for you know, my accommodation needs in my and just like how my brain is and how I am that being able to look at somebody and be like, not only am I not going to apologize, but I'm going to make it a little bit hard for you because I know that you want this and that you think I'm worth it. That's been one of the healthiest things, for me as an adult is just that feeling of being able to like look at somebody and have that amount of trust, and that amount of intimacy and that amount of vulnerability. And it just but it comes in being silly, and it comes in being goofy and it comes in you know, being like a little bit sassy and sarcastic or whatever, you know, your version of brat looks like. But for me, it's about that trust. And it's about that intimacy and having that with somebody, it sounds trite to say it, but it's powerful. It's powerful, and it's meaningful. And it's you know, talking about, like needs versus wants, but like, I don't necessarily think I need it. But like it's something that I want to have in my life because it is so good. It's just good.
KC Davis 53:35
So I have two thoughts, and I don't want to forget them. But for anybody who's sort of clutching their pearls and doesn't actually know what a brat is. Can you give us an example of what that means? Or a definition of what that looks like?
Catie Osborn 53:48
Yeah, I mean, I think like, the best sort of like shorthand explanation is like in a traditional power exchange dynamic, there is a dominant partner and a submissive partner. And traditionally, you know, the DOM says, you know, like, I don't know, like, go drink some water. And the submissive says, Yes, sir. Or, you know, whatever honorific there is, and drinks water in a submissive brat relationship that might look more like, why don't you come over here and make me you know, where there's like, a little there's like a rise to the power, there's a rise to like, I don't wanna say the occasion. But there is there is a push back there, but the pushback is based on the understanding that this is play that this is a sort of, like exploration of the power dynamic, because you know, we talk a lot about like, you know, the dog having all the power, but in a, I think, truly healthy kink relationship. There is an absolute power balance, where the DOM is agreeing to take the keys and you know, drive, but the submissive says, and I trust you and I'm along for the ride. And so a brat sort of is like in that like middle ground where it's like they're not necessarily dominant, but for me, like I've literally just Switch. So I go back and forth. But the brat moment is sort of about that moment of like, well, yeah, like, you want me to drink water, we'll come over here and make me and then whatever that looks like happens, but then ultimately, they drink the water. And the dog goes, Ah, you're such brat, like, does is that a good enough explanation
KC Davis 55:20
I think it's a great explanation I do. And I think that when we talk about people who want to, like dip their toes into the water here, you know, if you replace drink water with take your clothes off, it's like, there's nothing Dungeoneering about that for somebody that sort of like, Oh, I could never ask for that. But it's like, yeah, that's something that even the most sort of vanilla couple would be like, Oh, well, that's an exchange that we
Catie Osborn 55:44
might have. Right? Yeah, you know, or you have 30 seconds to take off your clothes, or I'm taking them off for you. Like, that's high. Like, that's high, you know, but it's also like, but then like, you're not having to be like, Oh, my gosh, are they in the mood? Like, am I being an inconvenience? Like, what if they don't really want me to take my clothes off, like, all of that is sudden, all of those like rejection sensitivity, voices are suddenly silenced because this person is looking and going. And if you're not done in 30 seconds, we're gonna have a problem, you know. And that's like, that's so powerful like that is so powerful for somebody who is accustomed to feeling like a burden and accustomed to feeling broken and accustomed to feeling like an inconvenience. Having that. I don't want to say subliminal, but that underlying message of and if I didn't want this, I wouldn't be telling you to get it done in 30 seconds. Like, it's the first like, kick changed my life like it did. Like I'll say, I don't care. kink absolutely changed my life, because it allowed me to the for the first time ever, to be the one who was calling the shots being the one who was getting asked if I was okay, being making sure that I was safe and supported. And that's why I'm such a big sort of like, advocate for all of the potentialities that kink holds in those spaces where you might feel insecure, or you might feel less than or you might feel broken. Because I think over and over and over in a relationship like that, you're being told no, I want this, I want you in a way that I think sometimes we aren't accustomed to communicating if that makes any sense.
KC Davis 57:22
Yeah. And I think it directly scratches that like itch, or like heals that wound of like being too much. Like, if you're told that you're too much your whole life, there's something that about you that comes to yearn for someone to say, not just I want you, but you're worth the work that it would take to want you that, because I know how to perform. I know how to be docile, I know how to be a good girl, you know, in the sense of like, oh, I laugh at his jokes and all talk quietly, and I'll be quiet and submissive, like, but I also know that that's not really who I am. And there's this fear. And this experience, frankly, of when someone sees my real personality, and it's too much, they won't want that. And so there's something really healing about that. In our play that exchange of, but if it's hard to love me, will you still want to? Yeah. Will you still pursue? Will you still push Will you still? And you know, what's funny is like, we really do have this idea that kink is this like, perverse thing. But when I look back in my life at the characters and movies and fiction that I relate, not related to the most, but that I gravitated towards, that were like the most acceptable PG G character like Elizabeth Bennet, right? Or like any character that is saying to and that's why I was always obsessed with J not like really looking back and realizing that the reason I was obsessed with Jane Austen is because of kink was because like she would do these characters of women that would say to a man, I hate you, and the man would go, Well, I hate you. And she's this like, difficult person. And then all of a sudden, this man's like, Wait, actually, I'm in love with you. And even if you push me away, I'm going to keep pushing because that's how fucking maddening I am with how amazing you are like, looking back and realizing that like, even in like my most like innocent identification of characters, it was this same dynamic.
Catie Osborn 59:37
So okay, I have one really silly story about this. So speaking of going to grad school way too many times, I have two master's degrees in Shakespeare, and my thesis advisor for when I was getting my MFA, we were like going through my resume and he was like, looking at me he's like, okay, so you got like, You got Beatrice. Okay, you've got K K. You've got Rosalind K got Lady Macbeth K. At some point he's like going down the list. Seems like have you ever noticed that all you play as brats? And I was like, I mean, there's a reason why I play like a very limited scope of roles in Shakespeare, but it's like because but I think like Shakespeare is a little bit the same way, like a lot of the women that he writes like, the really good lovers like Beatrice and and Kate are absolutely do that, too. It's that sort of like, Austin dynamic of like, I'm going to push back and I'm going to like talk shit. And I'm going to like, make you prove that you want this. And I love, like, tame like, I mean, Tammy has is problematic for its own reasons. But like, Kate and Beatrice are my two characters to play. And I play them quite frequently. And it's, but I love those characters. I like I love those roles because of that, because it's that same. Like they're both burnt out gifted kids like they're brilliant women who are stuck in these dole sort of scenarios. But yeah, like, it's the same exact thing.
KC Davis 1:01:04
It's funny, because I've been watching the second season of bridgerton.
Catie Osborn 1:01:07
I haven't started it yet. Well,
KC Davis 1:01:10
let me tell you, there had been some audible like, yes. From me in the moment, because it is exactly that story of like, Oh, she's difficult, and she's too much and she doesn't fit in. And she's too smart.
Catie Osborn 1:01:26
She's so hot. Right?
KC Davis 1:01:30
And I must know. Well, that's awesome. Well, listen, Katie, this has been the coolest talk ever.
Catie Osborn 1:01:40
Hooray. Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be here. This is great. You're so cool. I like you so much. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just think you're so great.
KC Davis 1:01:49
Thank you. Oh, I like you, too. When I went to rehab when I was 16, we had to do these like various treatment assignments to like build our skills or whatever. And some of them were really intense about like journaling about your trauma and things like that. But some of them were like, very, like basic level, not really had a treatment assignment called like making friends. And this is so funny. So you had to like write about friendship and like, do all these things. There's like several things. But one of the things that you had to do swear to god is you had to pick two people in the community is 16 Girls, that's how big this treatment center was. We were 16. If we were between 13 and 17. That was the age range. And so at group every night, because we'd group every day and like you had to do this assignment, you had to walk up to the girl in the group, and you had to cross your arms, and they had to cross theirs and you had to hold their hands in that criss cross position. And you had to say these words. Are you ready? Katie?
Will you be my friend? I do want me to make more friends. And literally the person will be like, Yes, I will. And that is the funniest fucking thing in the world to me that they had us do that. And for years and years and years to this day, like girls that I went to this treatment center with, we will like that's like one of our funniest inside jokes.
Sara, will you be my friend and help me to make more friends. So every time somebody has or like it's you always always like fellow neurodivergent has that moment they're like, will you be my friend? I know that's awkward. I'm gonna be like, Haha, are we telling you? I am the master of explicitly asking someone if they want to be my friend to help me make more friends. So I find that endearing and awesome. We are friends. All right. Well, Katie, can you tell people where they can find you?
Catie Osborn 1:03:34
Oh, I do lighting. So I go by Katie Soros on all social medias. I also have a podcast. It's called Katie and Eric's infinite quest in ADHD adventure. We talk about life with ADHD and neurodivergent it and living life with depression, all sorts of stuff. We talk a lot about relationships and kink and that kind of stuff. And I have a website now because I'm fancy. You can go to kT a source.com. And you can see all the cool stuff that I'm doing. Or you can go to infinite Quest podcast.com. You could go to all three, it whatever you want to do is fine.
KC Davis 1:04:04
If you want to if you want to I mean, if it's not a bother.
Catie Osborn 1:04:07
I'm not. It's just It's fine. There's you could if you wanted to I wouldn't be bad. It'd be fine.
KC Davis 1:04:11
We will link that in the show notes for everybody. Hey, awesome. Well, thank you, Katie.
Catie Osborn 1:04:16
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
