Social anxiety is a common experience for many people. Today’s show is about the tips and tricks we can use to deal with this kind of anxiety when we have to be social and in public. Join us to learn more!

I’m joined by Michelle Huillet, an interpersonal communication instructor at Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon. In her interpersonal communication course for college freshmen and sophomores, Michelle teaches all about communication in relationships, including listening, nonverbal communication, emotions, and social anxiety.

 Show Highlights:

 ●      How social anxiety boils down to a fear of judgment

●      How Michelle’s students describe their social anxiety

●      Why many people who struggle with social anxiety look comfortable and confident on the outside

●      Accommodations for social anxiety

●      How nonverbal cues, like eye contact, can allow people with social anxiety to remain engaged and participate

●      Challenges to do with baby steps to become more comfortable with social anxiety by “getting your feet wet”

●      How our imperfections bring connection points–and give a gift to those around us

●      Michelle’s words of wisdom for those who have social anxiety

Resources and Links:

Mentioned in this episode: The Anxiety Healer's Guide: Coping Strategies and Mindfulness Techniques to Calm the Mind and Body by Alison Seponara

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

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• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello, you're socially anxious sentient balls of stardust. This is struggle care. And I'm your host, KC Davis. And I'm here today with Michelle Huillet, we're going to talk about social anxiety. And when you have to be in a place where you have to be social, you have to be public. And we're going to talk about some tips and tricks to do that. So Michelle, will you introduce yourself, tell us what you do.

  Michelle Huillet 0:25

  Hi, KC. Thank you. I am Michelle Huillet, and I'm an interpersonal communication instructor at Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon gobies. And I teach interpersonal communication to college freshmen and sophomores, which means that we talk a lot about relationships in our course, we also talk about listening, nonverbal communication, emotions, and of course, social anxiety.

  KC Davis 0:52

  So one of the reasons why I thought this was an interesting topic is because a lot of the bulk of my work is talking about kind of accepting us for who we are. And there's a lot of different reasons why someone might have social anxiety. And for those of you who don't know what social anxiety is, it is specifically an anxiety around fear of judgment. So being in an environment where you're so afraid that everyone is looking at you, everyone is scrutinizing you. And then that creates sort of even some physiological, some sweating, some nervousness, some heart palpitations, so it's that's kind of the specific social anxiety definition that we're working with. And there's a lot of different reasons why someone might experience that. And I think it's really important that like, we know that it's okay to be a shy person, it's okay to be introverted, it's okay to be neurodivergent. It's okay to have any number of reasons why you dislike or prefer not to be at social events, or to speak publicly, or to have to shake hands and kiss babies, as I call it. But that being said, there are times in our life where there is something that we want for ourselves and our life that is on the other side of interactions like that, that we need to be able to get through, or we want to be able to get through to get to that goal. So I would love for us to talk about what kind of tips and tricks that you give to your students when they come in? And let me start with this question. What kinds of things do your students say, when they're talking about social anxiety? Like, how do they describe that in your class?

  Michelle Huillet 2:26

  Yeah, oh, that's a great question. Something that I do hear from students is that it's very difficult for them to sometimes go to class when they experience social anxiety, or maybe, you know, today, in particular, they're just feeling particularly anxious, it can be difficult to go to class, particularly maybe a small class, when you know, my class, you know, we do participate with each other, we talk to each other, and we do games and activities. So sometimes just going into class is a big thing. Another thing I hear from students, and this was also my experience in college is that we're often told, you know, to be a good student, you should sit in the front row. And you know, I love when people sit in the front, that's great. But as a student, I never did that. Because when I sit in the front, it feels like everyone is looking at me. And even though I know now that we're all kind of thinking about ourselves all the time, we're kind of obsessed with ourselves, but in a good way, not a selfish way. It does feel like the spotlight is on you. So that's something that I hear sometimes just going into class as hard or even being out on like a busy campus are in a crowded area can be a source of social anxiety. That's why something that I have talked to about my students with my students is that even things like sitting in the back of the class is totally fine. That way you can see everyone. And you know, no one is really looking at you except for me, the teacher, but I'm looking at everyone. So that's definitely something I hear. And something else I wanted to point out is that when students talk to me like one on one about their social anxiety, I am always really surprised by the students that share that, because they don't look like people that struggle with social anxiety. There are people who often look comfortable in class or they seem really happy and really confident and they just have it all together. And there's been several students even this past term that shared that with me. And you would never guess that they struggle with social anxiety, because they look like they're totally comfortable and they connect well with people and they participate. And I think that's just a really good reminder for those of us myself included that struggle with social anxiety. Sometimes we feel like we're the only ones but that person sitting right next to us who's smiling and seems really comfortable and confident. might be feeling scared to death inside. So just because someone doesn't show it there are anxious doesn't mean what they're feeling on the inside could look totally different than the outside. So that's just a good reminder to sometimes it feels like I'm the only person that struggles with this. But a lot of people around us who look totally comfortable

  KC Davis 5:14

  That is so important, because part of what happens with social anxiety is it becomes its own anxiety feedback loop, right? Like you feel uncomfortable. And then you're anxious about the fact that you probably seem uncomfortable, and then you're anxious about the fact that people are noticing how uncomfortable you are with how uncomfortable you are. Right. And it makes it worse. And I love that sort of observation from your standpoint, which is, it's likely that nobody even notices you're feeling that way. Because it's so hard to pick out in a classroom who's feeling socially anxious and who isn't. And I love that your first tip was sitting in the back of the class, because I feel like this approach, where, you know, for a long time, I feel like the way we address things was like all challenge. And we didn't really talk about accommodating. And there are points in our life where like, that's the main thing we need is accommodation. But I love this idea that when we're approaching an issue like this, that we need a combination of accommodations and challenge, right, like an coping challenge, like coping skills that are a little challenging, right. So, you know, you might say, okay, one accommodation is sit in the back of the class one accommodation is go to this event, you know, an appropriate amount late so that maybe not everybody looks at you as you come in, or maybe a little early. So you're the first one that right, like there's ways to accommodate, it's not all just like you said, smash that anxiety out of you, but you can't be successful until it's gone. And then there's also like, ways of coping that might be a little challenging to you, which is like challenge yourself to say one word or challenge yourself to answer one question, right? And so, you know, what kind of other things do you have that people can use? If they want more accommodations? Or if they want more of those c hallenges?

  Michelle Huillet 6:58

  Yeah, so I'm gonna answer the part about accommodations first. And I think one of the best things that we can do if we feel comfortable and safe, depending on the environment, is just talked to someone about it, whether it's a friend, maybe it's a co worker, and you feel anxious, during meetings at work, or, you know, maybe you're in college, and you want to talk to your really friendly communication instructor during office hours or via email and just say, like, Hey, I have a lot of social anxiety. Sometimes it's hard for me to participate in this class, like, you know, what can I do, and I find that sometimes just talking with the student, even just for 510 15 minutes, is really, really helpful. So if you're in a place, and I realize not all like supervisors, and instructors might be comfortable or safe people, but if you can find someone around you, maybe it's just a friend, kind of in your social group, and just saying, like, I feel really anxious at these events, or I just, I feel really unsafe or uncomfortable, whatever it is just being able to talk to someone about it, I think is a good first step. And I think that's kind of a good first step for accommodation. So sometimes, you know, I'll tell students, if you're feeling particularly anxious, like you can always step out of the room, you don't need to ask, you don't need my permission, if you need to just like step outside and use the restroom or get some water or even just to get some fresh air,

  KC Davis 8:19

  When I don't know how it is now, but when I was in college, like there were whole classes where there was like, 25% of your grade was participation. Yeah. And it's interesting how they all paint participation as having to be active public social participation. And to your point, like approaching a professor and saying, I experienced some social anxiety, and I'm committed to doing my best. I wanted to know, are there other ways that I could demonstrate participation in your class that might be a little easier for me than, you know, just having to talk in front of everyone?

  Michelle Huillet 8:54

  Yeah, so I have a couple ideas for that. One way that we can participate, whether in a classroom at work, or even just if we're hanging out with someone is just non verbally just like showing that you're listening and paying attention, making as much eye contact as you're comfortable with. You don't have to stare someone down. But you know, when I'm teaching, like, I appreciate that people are, you know, looking at me for a good part of it. They're not just staring at their phones or looking out the window. Not that we have to make serious eye contact, but you know, people are looking in your general direction or my instructor friends and I joke we love like the head nod or in class if somebody just like nod their head and smile if they get what you're saying.

  KC Davis 9:34

  Which you can do by looking down at your notes, right? Like someone who's looking down at their notes and nodding their head is different than someone staring down at their phone.

  Michelle Huillet 9:43

  Oh, for sure. Yeah, people taking notes or when I say you're gonna want to write this down. This is super important or, you know, circle this in your workbook. I really want you to pay attention like seeing people highlight that or circle that those are always that we can participate in sometimes

  Seems you know, we'll do things where I'll say like, you know, talk to your neighbor in class about this concept, or let's see if we can look up this word and in our book, so instead of talking to everyone or having everyone's eyes on you, people tend to be a little bit more comfortable with talking to that person sitting next to them. Just kind of one or two people to talk to as versus a, an entire room and giving them like something to do like look in their book, or, or something like that, or do an activity together can be another way to participate as well. Sometimes we'll play we'll do different games, like, have you heard of Kahoot? Is this fun, like online quiz game, so it has music, and everyone just gets out their phones, and we just kind of log in with a code. And I'll have like, like a test review. So I'll have like 10 questions that are going to be on the test, just true, false, multiple choice, and they answer with their phones. And whoever answers the quickest gets more points. It's just like a fun little competition.

  KC Davis 10:58

  Oh, that's lovely. When you first said, there's a game we play, I thought, Michelle, I am the most extroverted person in the world. And I would want to die if my teacher was like, we're gonna play a game together. No, but that's genius to play it on your phone to have it. It's like a private public experience. And I also was thinking like, when you were talking about those nonverbal cues. I know for me, sometimes when I'm in a meeting, and I know that it's easier for me to pay attention, if I'm not looking that sometimes I'll even just express that before we get started, which is like, hey, I want you to know that I pay attention better if I'm looking down. So I am listening. And I try to still find a nonverbals that I'm comfortable with that can express that. And it made me think of your accommodation about sitting in the back of the room. Because I think that it kind of depends on who you are, and what's best for you. Like, if sitting in the back of the room, maybe that is what makes you comfortable enough to raise your hand, right? But then also, if you're someone who, hey, no matter what, I'm going to be too anxious to raise my hand, letting a professor know like, hey, I really can't cope very well with being like cold called. But I like to sit in the front, because I like for you to see that I'm paying attention. I like for you to see me taking notes, I like for you to see me nodding my head and like, I will give you cues that I'm listening. I'm just I'm not a student who's going to raise their hand a lot. And I am a student who's going to get extremely anxious if you call on me. But it's interesting how like, you almost could do the opposite, which is sit in front and say like, can you grade my participation based on your observations of me paying attention? Not my, you know, putting my hand in the air. So those are great accommodations. What do you have, by way of, well, let's do this, let's take a pause, we're going to hear from a sponsor. And then I want to come back and talk about maybe some challenges that people can do little baby steps to get a little more comfortable. Okay, we're back. So talk to me about some small little baby step challenges that people can do to get more comfortable.

  Michelle Huillet 12:53

  Yeah, so I call this kind of getting our feet wet. So you don't have to go to every social event, and be in large crowds. But are there things you can do to get your feet wet, so little bit of a challenge, you know, you can do it, but it won't be totally overwhelming. For one example, if you're I don't know, maybe your friend is having a large birthday party, and you just don't like large social gatherings like I don't. And I like small things. But your friend is really important to you, and you want to show up to their birthday, right? It's about them and other social, the whole social thing. And so I think a way to get our feet wet is really just maybe kind of like you said, before just communicating to someone like, Hey, I'm probably going to be able to stop by for half an hour or an hour. And then you know, based on how you're feeling, if you're feeling anxious and overwhelmed, you can get out and just telling your friend like, hey, I want to be there for your birthday, I've really been struggling with some social anxiety lately. So I'm probably just gonna stop by I want to see you give you a hug. And then I'll probably just need to leave in about half an hour or whatever the timeframe for you is. And so and then that kind of gives you an out. But I always think it's important to communicate. So instead of just coming to your friend's birthday, and immediately leaving, just like telling them or giving them a text or whatever, like I really care about you, I want to be here for you, I'm probably not going to be able to stay that long. It's just about communicating. Like you said, like communicating with your professor, you know, I really have some social anxiety, just being able to tell people like this is gonna be hard for me. But this is what I'm capable of doing. So that's kind of what I consider getting our feet wet. And there's a lot of different ways we can do that. So maybe you don't want to go to your big neighborhood potluck. But maybe you can go for a walk with a neighbor you've been getting to know, right, like maybe that would be more reasonable. So what's something What's a tiny thing that would be a little bit of a challenge, but not overwhelming that you feel like I never want to leave the house again. I'm going to lock myself in my room and leave. Right and another thing I want to talk about and this is just a principle that we teach in interpersonal communication, some

  thing that can make us feel anxious in social situations that you referenced earlier was that sometimes we feel this pressure to be perfect, I have to be perfect in order for this event to go well, or if I'm grabbing coffee with someone, I have to be perfect. And if I'm not perfect, this is going to be a disaster. But in interpersonal communication, we teach that we're actually drawn to people who show and communicate their imperfections, we like imperfections. And this totally makes me think of your work like me, and so many other people are drawn to you, because I can relate to the dishes in the sink in the messy room, and then not having a perfect house. And so sometimes we feel in our head, like I have to be perfect in order for this to go well, but actually, the research tells us we like people who are imperfect and who show that and communicate that, because we're imperfect. So when we meet someone who, you know, has some flaws, or maybe kind of embarrassed themselves, or is this something weird, we like that, because it reminds us of us. And that's a real connection point. So sometimes we think in order to connect, I must be perfect. But we know actually, connection comes from imperfections. So it's okay to as cliche as it sounds, be yourself, like, be a little goofy and weird. That is where connection lies.

  KC Davis 16:17

  It's a really great way of turning that concept on its head. And I kind of realized early on when I was trying to make like new mom friends, that it feels like the first time you ask someone for help, or the first time you're vulnerable around someone or you feel a little embarrassed around someone, it feels as though you're asking someone else to sort of hold a burden for you, because you've messed up, you're not perfect, you need something from them, you know, you're going to be in their debt, you need like the first time you feel like you kind of need grace from someone, you feel like you're though, like you're putting a burden on them. But in reality, people feel so much more comfortable asking for help when someone has already asked them. And people feel more comfortable being vulnerable when someone has been vulnerable with them. And people feel more comfortable not being perfect when someone else has not been perfect first. And so what I did was I started thinking that you know, me kind of being this, like fumbling human. It's not making someone else bear a burden. It's actually me doing them a favor, like it's me taking on the burden. And I would joke like the metaphor is that I always used to joke that my spiritual gift is going first in a buffet line.

  Because I've just for some reason been to a lot of things where it's like, whether it's a large family gathering, or it's like a you said, like a community potluck or a birthday party. And as soon as someone's like, okay, the food's ready. Everyone just stands there, and everyone is hungry, but like, nobody wants to be that first person to go through the buffet, because you kind of you just feel like, okay, I need to defer to everybody else. But then everybody's trying to defer to everybody. And I started doing this in my early 20s, I jokingly was like, This is my role in these situations is to be like, Okay, I'll bite the bullet. And I make a joke about it. And I always go get my food first. And I realized that people were actually really grateful because they're like, Thank God, like, It's too embarrassing to be the first one and to be judged by, you know, that person went first. So I was like, you know, what I will take this burden on for all of us. And it's funny, because people will generally think that like, Thank you, I was so hungry, but I did not want to go first. But I've been trying to think about that in an interpersonal sense, too, which is like the first person to mess up is actually doing everyone a favor.

  Michelle Huillet 18:30

  So well said and this is something I'm always telling my students like sometimes to be a good communicator, it means you have to go first. It means you have to be able to one that like opens up and says like, Hey, I've really been struggling with my anxiety lately, or I really don't like big social events. Can y'all help me out? Right? Like, I feel like sometimes we're all just like looking at the people in our life waiting for someone to go first. But just like your buffet example, like as you were saying that I was like, Okay, you're the type of person I want to be friends with. So when you go first than I know, I can go through the buffet line. I'm like, Oh, what a relief. Like you just take the pressure off of everyone. So we really yeah, sometimes we have to just kind of go first and be a little weird and awkward. And we're all very weird and strange, in our own ways. So when someone else this is what we call reciprocity when someone else goes first than I can too. And I like what you said about asking for help. You know, we talked about this in our class, and I asked my students, how many of you have a really close friend or partner needed help? How many of you would want to be there, you'd want them to reach out everyone always raises their hand. So sometimes we can actually ask people in our life for help, like, is there someone in your life who you think they're really good in social situations, or they seem to have it together? Or they're a good communicator? Like can I ask them for help? Can I say I have a real hard time when we go to brunch or I have a hard time speaking up at this meeting at work, but I want to make sure my ideas are communicated

  it, can you give me some suggestions? Can you help people love overall, I think people love to help each other out.

  KC Davis 20:06

  There's actually been studies that when someone feels like you are indebted to them, they actually see you with much more graciousness. And you'd think it'd be the opposite. Like, you would think that it's like, uncomfortable or something. But and a lot of people don't know this. But when I gave my TED talk, when I gave my TEDx talk, I messed up in the middle of it, I completely blanked and forgot what came next. And I'm talking crickets in my head. And it was in a place in the talk that I had never forgotten before, I'd never stumbled before. And what happened was, I was like, going along, and I was giving it and the audience laughed at this point that like, wasn't really supposed to be funny. I don't know if they were feeling like nervous, but it caught me off guard that they laughed at that point. And so I was like, oh, there let so that I had to pause for a second to let everyone kind of the laughter died down. And then it was just blank, nothing. And I like I ad lib, like a line. And then I just thought, you know what, I don't have it. I had to look offstage to one of the coaches who was like, following along, and I said, I don't know. And she had to feed me a line onstage in front of these people, and this camera crew, and then I had to go up. That's it. And then I looked out at the audience and smiled. And I said, don't worry about it. They'll edit this out. And everyone just burst into laughter. And then I just went on. And the other thing that I realized was that because everyone's like, Oh, your talk, your talk, your talk, and I've even had friends that have done talks, call me and be like, I'm just so nervous. I'm gonna mess up. And I'm like, Well, yeah, I messed up. And they're like, what you did? And I'm like, yeah, they edited it out. But yes, in a big way, in the biggest way, you could mess up a TED talk, I messed it up. And what I've learned from that situation, though, is that,

  like, if I'm watching a public speaker, and I, and they mess up, like, I don't have any feelings about them messing up. But when I can tell that they feel really embarrassed, and really uncomfortable, that's when I start to feel embarrassed for them and uncomfortable. And I'm like, oh, no, I don't want you to feel this way. I feel so bad. And like, that's what makes the audience uncomfortable. And so in that moment, like, acting as though it didn't bother me, even though it did, even though it was embarrassing, even though I was internally freaking out, but just acting as though this is no big deal. Don't worry about it, guys. It made the audience not nervous, and not register that as a big deal or as a failure or as anything wrong. And so, so I was able to just pick up where I left off, and just keep going. Whereas like, I think that if I had fallen into that hole of I've messed it up, oh my God, I've messed it up. Oh, my God, this is the worst thing ever. Like, that's what freezes me. That's what kind of makes me like, go down in flames and not be able to move on. And so recognizing that, like, if I fake that, it's okay. Everyone's just gonna go with it.

  Even if I'm messing up, like, if I almost like normalize the messing up. That is like, the biggest gift you can give to any audience is like, Oh, thank God, we didn't want to have to feel embarrassed for you.

  Michelle Huillet 23:22

  Yeah, it just makes you think of kind of, like laughing at yourself can be a good way, you know, to do that a little bit of like, you know, kind of poking some fun at yourself, you know, I have to do that in my classrooms. Because I mess up all the time, you know, I'll say turn to page 24. And I'm talking about something and it's on the wrong page. And they're like, What are you talking about, and I was like, I just wanted to make sure you guys were paying attention. But it's just like, it makes you a little bit more relatable. And I was like, Oh, whoops, um, I've just gotten ahead of myself, or, you know, I forgot what we did in our last class, because that's just human. And I think that the more I open up in my classes, the more students can open up to me and the more they can stay after class and say, I like that you said this thing today. You know, I also struggle with social anxiety. And that is something that I share with my students sometimes, you know, I teach this class typically of about 30 people and people are surprised that I'm very introverted, and only to leave the house. And I also struggle with social anxiety. Even though I come to class and they seem prepared and I probably seem like remotely competent. Inside, I am worried about what people think about me. And when I share that, it's just like, so many students are like, me, too. Me too. Me too. So I think when we open up and we laugh at ourselves are like, Oops, I messed up there. It allows people to say, Hey, I messed up in this way or I relate to you here.

  KC Davis 24:50

  Michelle. I really appreciate everything that you've said so far. And my main takeaways are kind of those two perspective shifts were that you offered that was number one, you know

  Probably no one can tell. And probably more people are struggling this with you, and you just can't tell. So if you can't tell that they're anxious, probably they can't tell that you're anxious. So you know, we can breathe a little bit. And then that idea that sort of like, it's doing someone a favor, to be the first person willing to mess up to be the first person willing to fumble like that really is doing the person in front of you, and even the group around you a favor, and people will feel grateful for it. And, and most of the time, instead of judging you for whatever little human blip mistake it was, they actually are inwardly relieved, that, you know, if they then are human, it's going to be okay. And so in some ways, you know, I think that's huge. So, Michelle, I appreciate everything that you've said, Do you have any, like little last words of wisdom for someone who is wanting to maybe try something new this week, despite feeling socially anxious?

  Michelle Huillet 25:58

  Yeah, I would just say, be really gentle with yourself, you know, take really small steps, make a small goal, you know, make it a goal to start by an event or, you know, make it a goal to just engage in small talk for 30 seconds with a co worker, give them a compliment, ask them for help ask them a question. Instead of saying, I'm going to throw a big party at my house. Like that's just not realistic. But is there a small goal is, is there someone that you've been wanting to get to know? Or maybe your goal can be like, I want to talk to one of my friends about my social anxiety? And I just want to tell them, I've this has been hard. And this is why sometimes I cancel at the last minute, when we have plans, like a really small step that again, yes, it's challenging, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Can I maybe ask someone for recommendations? That's one of my favorite conversational tips. People love to give recommendations, whether it's food or entertainment, or you know where to get your dog groomed, or where's the best park like people? I mean, I love to give recommendations. I could probably talk for hours, you know, when someone's new in town, like, can I ask a coworker, I love your haircut, who's your hairdresser? Can you give me their contact information, maybe that could be a goal for you this week. Or maybe your goal is just to talk to someone about how you're feeling. Or maybe your goal is to make a goal, maybe you're not sure what that next step is. But maybe just keep it on the backburner and be on the lookout for an opportunity of, you know, I want to give that person a compliment. Or I want to talk to that person next to me in class, like, they're always so nice that I'd like to get to know them. And sometimes we're always thinking about ourselves, which is just a human thing. But something I'm always telling my students is that no one is thinking about you as much as you are. And this might sound a little extreme, but no one hates you as much as you do. Right.

  So, like, we're so hard, we're so hard on ourselves. So sometimes I think of it, instead of thinking about myself and my social anxiety. Maybe by talking to this person in class, or maybe one of my co workers or maybe getting to know one of my neighbors. Instead of being about me, maybe I can offer this person a sense of connection, and community. And even if I feel awkward, maybe I can help this person feel a little bit more connected and a little less lonely. And that makes me like that helps me branch out instead of being about me, What can I offer this person? Can I have a pleasant conversation for a couple minutes? Can I give them a compliment? Can I help them by opening up? Like what can I do for you. So instead of thinking about myself, I'm thinking about someone else and how I can contribute to their overall connection. So I think that can be a helpful way to approach it.

  KC Davis 28:51

  That's a great tip. Like, it kind of sounds funny, but like find someone in the room that looks even more anxious than you. And then be like, I'm going to do this person a favor by you know, complimenting their shoes by asking them if they know where the bathroom is, like, you know what I mean? Like just fight like, it really can help to switch that. So and then I wanted to give a little shout out for anybody that is looking for maybe some specific coping tips to get them through when they're in social situations. There's a book called The anxiety healers guide. It's by Alison seminara. And she's a licensed professional counselor. And this little book, it's called the anxiety healers, guide coping strategies and mindfulness techniques to calm the mind and body is chock full of small little grounding exercises that are something that would work really well with being in a social environment with people and feeling anxious to kind of help regulate that nervous system. So Michelle, thank you again, and I really appreciate all your tips.

  Michelle Huillet 29:48

  Thank you. It was so nice to meet you. And I know you talked about your TED talk and I wanted to tell you, I share that with my students on one of our discussion boards and we talk about it and I share tons of stuff from your book with them.

  My students, I referenced you all the time in class. So I'm just super excited to meet you and your work is Oh, thank you. It's changed my life. And I've recommended your book and all of your podcasts, your TED Talk to everyone and the people around me. It's really helped. So you're helping so many people and yeah, I am so happy to meet you.

  KC Davis 30:20

  Thank you

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai

We are exploring the world of parenthood today, but this episode might be helpful even for those who aren’t parents. We are all in some process of trying to reparent ourselves, and it can be healing to hear how people are parenting, how they are failing, and why they want to do better. I’m joined by Yolanda Williams, who has built the Parenting Decolonized brand. She is a single mom, a conscious parenting coach, and a racial justice educator. Join us to learn more!

Show Highlights: 

●      Why sleep and parenting is a no-win situation for parents: the essence of the co-sleep vs. sleep train debate

●      Why parents have to figure out when their child is dysregulated and what works best for them–even if goes against “the rules”

●      How parents can learn about their triggers and how they project those triggers into the world

●      Why we don’t understand the fears, shame, and motivation that cause other parents to do what they do

●      How Yolanda feels about the parent-coaching industry

●      How Yolanda has built an intentional community in the absence of the ancestral village

●      How capitalism and racism have infiltrated our parenting techniques

●      Why Yolanda is working to form an intentional village community where parents help each other with whatever their “privilege” is

●      How to start decolonizing your parenting

●      What we should teach our kids about violence, restraint, bullying, and self-defense

●      A look at Yolanda’s recent parenting “wins”

 Resources and Links:

Connect with Yolanda Williams: Website, Parenting Decolonized podcast, and Instagram

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello you sentient balls of stardust, welcome to struggle care, the podcast about mental health, self care, wellness, by a host that really hates the term self care and is not super great at wellness. I'm glad that you're here. And I'm glad that you're gonna listen to me in this next guest. I've got Yolanda Williams on today who has an organization or company, what's the best way to say that is your company, your organization, your brand and brand got it? decolonizing parenting, and I love that. And if you're not a parent, I hope you stick around, I find that sometimes in the world of trying to reparent ourselves. There's something that can be really healing about listening to people talk about parenting, particularly listening to them talk about wanting to be good parents and how they're failing and, and how they're wanting to do better and what they think about parenting. So I'm glad you're with us. And Yolanda, I'm super glad that you're with me. Both of us had really rushed mornings. So rushed, I'm so tired. And the amount of podcasts that I roll into with zero plan would actually probably wouldn't shock many people. I don't tend to have a plan about anything.

  Yolanda 1:16

  I tell people, though, like it's like a like it's a thing. I'm just like, listen, it's conversational. I don't have questions. It's because I don't want to have them. I don't want to send you questions, because that means I have to do pre work. And nobody got time for that.

  KC Davis 1:28

  I know. And I try to check with people because I tried to appreciate that. Some people really need a plan. I am so happy to shoot from the hip. Yeah. Okay. So anyways, we were like talking about something and I was like, Wait, hit record, it's gonna be good. I was sharing that my morning was a little rushed, because I thought my daughter was sick. And then she made a miraculous recovery as many four year old to do once, she realized she had to actually stay in bed for the morning if she was sick. And so I had to rush her to school, and my older daughter actually sleeps with me. And we sleep really well together.

  Yolanda 2:00

  I don't, I haven't had a good night's sleep in four years is difficult. So like, recently, Casey had a post about sleep training. And I commented and I got I was like, well cried out is traumatizing. And the thing about me is I'm gonna say what I'm gonna say, right? And some people agreed. So people were just like, you know, why would you say that? That's not what she's talking about. And the thing is, I understand the like, the desperation because I still haven't had a good night's sleep. Do you wake up, she just started sleeping through the night at three. But she sleeps so terribly that I wake up multiple times a night just to switch to the other side of the bed. She's, I am on the edge of reason of the bed, right? Like I'm like, floating, the way that my mattress is now like each side has a divot of me, and then in the middle of a hill. So it feels weird to even sit in the middle because it's just like, This doesn't feel right, because that's how poorly she wants to be under me. And I think that's from nursing whenever she wanted to, and she wants to be touching me and it's terrible. So I understand that like desperation just like I need to get some effing sleep because I'm gonna lose my mind. I feel well and I

  KC Davis 3:09

  think that's probably why my daughter and I sleep okay to like, it's so it's such a different experience is because I didn't co sleep from a birth, like I did sleep train, I did cry it out. And so she got used to sleep like she never really had that like skin to skin all night long. And so she just like lays there like a little log. And so I, you know, what I thought was really interesting. So for anyone listening, I did a post about how I had sleep trained, and I did use cry it out. And what I found really interesting when you had commented cried out as traumatizing is that because you and I have a relationship, like we have the beginnings of a relationship. We've talked offline, we've sort of chatted about things we did that live together. It was interesting to me how different it was to experience your comment, because my experience of it was like, hey, that's what she believes that's what she thinks.

  Yolanda 4:01

  It wasn't like, I was like, Man on you. Yeah,

  KC Davis 4:05

  I like doing personally. And it was like, easier to hold. Like, that's her opinion. It's not about me. And it was just kind of an interesting reflection on like the internet in general. Because when I don't know someone, like if I hadn't have known you, and you had commented that like I would have taken it as adversarial. Yeah, like I would have felt attacked, I would have maybe even like pushed back really hard on it. And I did push back really hard on other people that said similar things, but it was like you and I had this container, that content recontextualize that comment,

  Yolanda 4:41

  and I think that's the important thing we need to remember about social media, the way we interact with each other online. It's just so nasty sometimes. And I think a lot of times we assume that people are trying to attack you're trying to be negative. And really I was just stating like what I feel as effects. And it wasn't like I'm trying to shame and say and that's why I had to Like a second thing, like, I don't know, if this is what you're saying, I was trying to, like, clean it up a bit. And so many words, I didn't want you to feel like I was attacking you. And that's also why I made like, 5011 response videos, because I wanted to give more context. And that's the hard part is like, these are some very short form, communication style tic tock, you know, so we are with, I think now they've increased like 10 minutes, like, who wants to know, on tick tock for 10 minutes with somebody to talk, but I don't, because that's not what it's for. That's not what we want it to be for. So we get these three minute sound bites of someone's opinion. And we have to remember, like, it's not the totality of what they're saying, because you had to then go in and talk about in your reply videos, other people, you were like, expanding on what you were saying, and I didn't want it. You know, I'm, I'm sorry, if I, you know, if I did make you feel away, because I wasn't definitely wasn't what I was trying to do. And I thought about it. And I was just like, well, I probably could have said that differently. But it's something I feel strongly about. And there's some cultural reasons that I talked about why I feel the way I do. And I hope that, you know, I was able to clear some things up for you, because I'm not worried about anybody else.

  KC Davis 6:10

  Well, that's what was kind of interesting to me was that, I think, had it been anybody else I would have felt like, what you were saying was that I had traumatized my kid. And then like, the natural, like, jump from that, it's like, that's a bad mom. But because I've talked to like you and I have had, like, we had a long life about parenting. And so I know, at least I think I know, your general opinions about me as a person. So I was able to hold that opinion differently. And it was just an interesting thing. And then I, it kind of also brought me to, I was thinking so like, long about what was interesting about just that, this in general, this concept of sleep and parenting, and I mean, at the end of the day, it's like a no win situation. For moms in general.

  Yolanda 7:01

  And for the children, right, we are either choosing ourselves or choosing them. And so in your case, you were like, I gotta choose me because I cannot. And in my case, I was like, I have to choose her. Because of the cultural context of we she's already born into this body as a, you know, as a black child, a disabled woman at that, a girl at that, so I'm trying to do everything I can to mitigate trauma. And, and that means I have to suffer. And that's what I've been doing, I'm I'm gonna lie. To y'all, I have been, it's been really difficult to not sleep well, and try to run a business or just trying to be a good parent, it really is difficult. So I understand what you were saying, when you were just like, I would choose this way any day. For me, I didn't feel like I had a choice and choosing my child, because of you know, white supremacy, delusion. And all this stuff that she has to deal with are ready come into the world, with a mom who's traumatized by whiteness, that's the things that I have to hold. And so it's interesting how we can see the same, like talk about the same thing. It's just so from two different worlds. And I think that's why we need to learn how to talk to each other, to understand the context. Well, and I

  KC Davis 8:11

  think the other you know, it's almost a similar idea is that the way that cultural things play out in my life as a white mother is like, there was just the fact that when I was sleep deprived, I was cold and angry. And I was incapable of being a conscientious parent, or a conscious parent, gentle parenting, respect for whatever you would call it. And you know, that I did not want to be that mother, that could not be responsive, right? Like that would have been, for me a legacy of isolation and coldness. And like we, you know, I am blessed to have a great relationship with my mom. But in general, like in the white world, the white community, like daughters and their mothers have a very complex, often screwed up relationship. And I think, you know, it's interesting when we talk about like, Okay, I chose me you chose your daughter, but I guess I see it a slightly different way. Because, like, the only when I look at like the options around sleep, whether it's like sleep training, and there are there are other ways of sleep training that don't involve like crying. I know a lot of people do like no cry solutions and things like that. I'm not as familiar with those, but it's like, it kind of seems like there's three options. There's like, Sleep Train your child to sleep in their crib alone. CO sleep with your child and a bed or just never sleep at all. To me that's like the only actual option that just never considers what you need is like just never sleep because then you can always provide, you know, the skin to skin, the clothes comfort, and there's no risk at all physical, emotional, like no risk at all, but That's not like, realistic. And I think in my head moms that closely, are going through the same process as moms that Sleep Train, like we're looking and going, Okay, we have to sleep, we have to sleep. And so if you have to sleep, the choices, you have to either sleep with your baby, or you have to figure out a way to get your baby to sleep by themselves. And there are certainly risk factors for both of those, like we talked about the risk factor, like I believe in looking at the research that is available, that there isn't enough sort of data that says, Look, we have this proof that this long term really negative impacts. Now, that doesn't mean that there are no negative impacts, it just means that there are no undocumented right now. And so I had to go in going it is a possibility that this could have a negative emotional impact. But for me, I also when I looked at ko sleep, I felt like there were still risk factors there. Namely, like safety risk factors, right? Like there is a possibility that a child could suffocate or asphyxiation in a co sleeping arrangement. And what I think sometimes happens, and I don't think you and I do this, but I think that like people who sleep train, will, the assumptions they make about the mother who co sleeps is like, she's laying in a fluffy bed of pillows, and she doesn't care about risk. And she's, you know what I mean? Yeah. And then like the mother that CO sleeps, when they see a mother asleep chains, she makes this assumption of like, she doesn't care about being responsive. She just shut the door and let the kids scream in their feces all night. When in reality, like

  Yolanda 11:43

  that is not what's going on for either one of

  KC Davis 11:45

  the mothers. Yeah, the mothers, I know that closely went okay. There is a risk here. Oh, yeah. But you took mitigating factors, right. Like, maybe you decided not to sleep with a big comforter? Maybe you decided to not drink? Maybe you decided to and like, that's what I did. Like I said, How can I mitigate the risk factors that this could have a negative impact. And so I chose, you know, okay, we're gonna do a schedule, like a pretty regimented schedule for two weeks before we do anything, so that you are adequately sleepy. And then I'm going to lay you down, I'm going to practice a bedtime routine. And then I'm going to lay you down. And then I'm going to leave the room for three minutes. And in three minutes, I'm going to come back in and for both of my daughters that actually ended up differently. So one of my daughters could not calm down in the crib, and like, I can tell the difference between I'm uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable, and I'm dysregulated. I'm dysregulated. And so I found that she was dysregulated. She could not be regulated in the crib. So I had to pick her up and hold her until she regulated. And when I felt that regulation, I later back down. And I did it again three minutes. My other daughter what was interesting is that I found that if I picked her up, she got more dysregulated if I kept my little hand on her in the crib, and I patted her butt and I said Mommy's here. Mommy's here, then she would reregulate so like, I still co regulated with my kids. Right? Three minutes, we're out. Three minutes, we're out six minutes, we're out. Six minutes, we're out, always listening for that. Where's your window of tolerance, I want to make sure that I'm in what I deemed sort of like a comfortable level of tolerance and not a complete I can't loot right. And that was what I was comfortable with. Right? I would not have been comfortable with just letting them scream all night, I would not have been comfortable with vomiting and all this. But I also when I hear about that happening, I think to myself, Oh God that's painful to hear. And I would never do that. And I tried to also hold space for maybe if I was desperate enough, there's always

  Yolanda 13:49

  new ones people. And I even had to say, I have been working from home since I moved out here to Arkansas from California. I moved before I was up. Not before, while I was pregnant. When I found out I was pregnant, I moved near my family. And so I had the privilege of being at home and not necessarily having to leave the house to go do things. You know, she did not sleep well. And I learned that with autistic kids. A lot of them don't sleep well. So sleep training wouldn't have worked for her anyway, you know, and I quickly learned that when I told you my friend got me the sleep trainer. She did that was what she recommended was exactly what you just said. And I went and I redecorated the room. I got the blackout blinds, I got the white noise machine. I even got it was some sort of like a compression like sleeve that she hates because she doesn't like covers and so I got all these things and I was ready. I was like we gotta I gotta get some sleep. I would go sleep chain. I lasted an hour. I just couldn't do it. And because she couldn't do it and and it didn't matter if I was touching her if I picked her up, she was screaming. And I didn't know at the time that she was autistic. I think she I think I was about eight months. She was about eight months when I tried this and to get her diagnosis. She was 18 months or no, I'm lying after she was two, I've got that diagnosis. So I understanding that autistic kids, a lot of them don't have very good sleep, sort of routines and that kind of thing. I had to learn what was best for us as a family. And I think that is where I always tell people, I'm a conscious parenting coach, I tell parents, you need to figure out what works best for your family. In my family, there's a limited screen time. That's because we are neurodivergent people over here and screens actually helped me. They've been helping her learn how to speak, she has limited words, she has learned how to speak and sing using a screen. So we, it's unlimited screen time over here. For me, we don't go to bed early. She her bedtime starts it's about 10 o'clock. Anything earlier, she wakes up at 4am. And like this is this is clockwork. So when she goes to sleep, and it's like nine, I'm just like, wake up. Because she does not sleep through the night. Otherwise, okay, she wants to wake up at four o'clock and party. So I had to realize like, I cannot do things. Like everyone else. I can't follow all the rules. Like, you know, here's this book of things I'll the I had to do what was best for my family. And I think as long as we always keep in mind, like, like what you said, I can tell if my child is really dysregulated I can tell, I have to figure out what they need it, you figured out what each child needed and you went with that. It wasn't like you close the door. Because that's, that is what I hear when people say cried out, that's what I think of, because I have seen like on the shows like The nanny and stuff, they talk about doing that it's so brutal to me. And the history of just some of the some of these parenting techniques from like, you know, the boomers are so brutal to children. And, and so that is where my mind goes. But honestly, if you are like checking in and making sure like there is no thrown up there screaming into their horse, like to me that you're you figure out what's best for your family. That's your business. I'm just in my business is making sure children are

  KC Davis 17:04

  what's interesting about that is like, if I'm being honest about like, I truly believe, like I do not have, I don't look down on mothers that CO sleep like I couldn't. And there were a few nights where I would do maybe like the last hour because I was so sleepy. But like I don't know if it was my anxiety or what but like the risk that anything could happen. Even if I was fault, like mitigating the best I could like I couldn't get over it. I could not fall asleep. If I did fall asleep I jerk awake, I could not function. And so like, I was so afraid. And some of that was my own sort of like I had a really difficult time with infertility. I had two miscarriages and I had this like pervasive belief that like, I wasn't allowed to have good things. And if I did something bad would happen. And so it was like, I can't,

  Yolanda 17:55

  okay, okay, I'm gonna stop you there. So you just saying that, like something happened in my body. Because I have this, when GIA does something, and she scares the shit out of me, I get angry, I get so mad. And I really just started investigating that. And I realized it's because I have a fear that I can't keep her alive. It's a big fear that I cannot keep her safe. And I can't keep her alive. But you type a couple things together and what you just said, and I'm feeling like that is also a part of that anger that comes up for me, right? Because this child who is like so purely like loves me, like up, I just be like, girl, you love me so much. Love me less. Sometimes it's so it's so much. It's so much. I've never experienced a love like this. And it's overwhelming for me at times. And I'm scared of it. At times, I'm getting emotional. It's scary for me because I just want to protect her. So when she does something, I'm just like, oh my god, she could have died. And then all the stuff about myself would be true. But I'm not good enough to be a good parent. I don't deserve good things. I can't keep her safe. And I project that with anger, like, and I'm learning because that's my job as a conscious parenting coach, but also as a parent, to learn what those triggers are, and learn how I project those triggers out into the world. And so I'm learning that when I start to feel that fear and anger rise up, I leave the room. If she's safe, I just leave the room and I just kind of go and like punch the air or something. Because it's there. It's a trigger and it's real and I can't pretend like it's not but it's my responsibility to make sure I'm not projecting that onto her because it's not fair. I just want to make sure that she stays alive and she in every day. I have a sensory seeking autistic child. It's like why are you trying to kill yourself? Why are you got that in your mouth? Why are you touching that? What you know, why do you have a battery? I found a she was chewing on a battery. I was like why are you doing that? She walked over to me the other day and just vomited. I was like what the hell was going on? In the vomit was one of my crystals. It was huge. She was talking about it. I didn't know and I had to just walk Go away. I was just like, I don't know how I'm gonna survive motherhood. And Mike, can I be a mother? Like, I'm constantly it's a constant questioning of, Am I even cut out for this? You know,

  KC Davis 20:09

  man, okay, I have so many thoughts, but I'm gonna take a pause, and we'll come back after the break. Okay, we're back with Yolanda from decolonizing parenting. And here's something that so I see you eat with your own crosstable. Here's what's so interesting to me. Like, I have to admit that when I hear people talk about co sleeping, I sometimes have to battle, like my own assumptions about what that means, right? Because just like you said, you know, when I hear sleep training or cried out, I hear put them in the crib shut the door, you don't care about their needs. And when I hear cosleeping, where I immediately go to is this sense of how could anyone for their own fear or comfort, even take the slightest bit of chance that their child would be harmed? Like because to me, like, my kids feel so precious feel so right. And so like, because that's my context? It's hard for me when I hear people talk about cosleeping. Because I think what could be worth that? What could be worth that, even if it's a 1% chance, what could be worth that? But like, when I hear you, so if that's like, the only thing I hear about someone, like, that's what I feel, and I know not to, you know, I don't want to say that to them. Because what I have learned is like, when I listened to you talk, like you did right before the break about like that deep fear of like your worst fears confirmed, that you may not be a good mom that you may not have what it takes to protect them. Like, it makes me realize that you're just like me. And I see that humanity. And I see that like, like F like it, you love them so much.

  Yolanda 21:47

  You love them. So it's like, it's like, the worst thing sometimes is I was just like me looking at her. I'm just like, I would kill for you lady like little girl, I would literally go to jail for you, I would go underneath the jail for you. If that's a scary thing.

  KC Davis 22:01

  I have thought that before. And it's not a like boast. It's like a fear. It's like, if someone were to hurt her, I would not be able to control myself, I would go to prison will go to prison and see I have an extra layer. This is hypothetical in case someone is listening to this in the future. And I have in fact been accused of hurting someone. This is hypothetical, I would never actually do that. Okay, but ya know, it's terrifying. And that vulnerable moment, and it's always like 3am. And you and looking at this baby, and you're you feel so low and so inadequate. And I think that what's hard is to like, what I learned things about whether it like parenting tactics. Without context. It's like I struggle sometimes to hold the humanity of that other mother and not point that out. And I first of all, I love that, like, when you talk about decolonizing parenting, I want to get into that. And I love that when you talk about your house and you're like, like, there are really deep reasons, cultural reasons, like why we co sleep and I took you know, and I took steps to mitigate any risks to that. And we're at we have no limits on screen time. Like I love that talking of like, decolonizing parenting isn't just like a list of parenting decisions and traits. Oh,

  Yolanda 23:11

  absolutely not. We have to do this. That's the thing. One thing I'm very vocal about, especially on tick tock is how I cannot stand the parent coaching industry. I hate it, to be honest with you. And I'm part of it, y'all. It's because of the way that it is spoke, we speak about all these things in such binary. You know, I'm saying like really just black and white things, and that is broken a pistol folks off because the majority of the coaches are white. And so it just feels very regimented all the time just feels like you need to do this. And it's just like absolutely not. There's nuance that we have to consider we everybody has a different all kids are different, right? What we know universally is that all kids deserve and need kindness and empathy and patience, and love and guidance from their parents that's across the board. All kids need that what they every kid may not work well with certain types of the wet you know, communication styles. This is what comes with learning about your children. And I just hate the way that it feels like here's some tips and tricks to stop Trump stop tantrums. It's like no, that's not how life is.

  KC Davis 24:18

  And it's not even about the kid like what I can't stand about. It's like the people who are very sort of like hardcore, like, I spank and I do this and I do that there's this pride of like, I know how to do it. I'm strong, but then even on like the total opposite end when you get to like super crunchy moms that you know, they have their own list of like, I only breastfeed my only cause even then it's like it's still about them it's like liquid a good mom I am and I feel like parents are trapped in that like when they're trying to look for the quote unquote like right thing to do. It's like this minefield of making the decisions that make you a good mom. As opposed to making it child centered.

  Yolanda 25:03

  And that's my point, right? Because that's what I chose to do, I have to be child centered in everything that I do for cultural reasons. And when we talk about decolonizing, I had to open it back. And I read stuff around ancestral ways of parenting. And I wanted to do that. I did not want to do things that were sort of rooted in like an individualistic society. The problem is that we live in an individualistic society, right? And so the reason why I had to this day, I'm not getting any sleep and feeling sometimes trapped by parenthood by motherhood is because the village is dead for all of us, right? We are not living the way we're supposed to be living this whole siloed nuclear Yeah, well, yeah. But you know, the nuclear family structure is not a natural structure. And it's fairly new. And we have to understand historically, this is not how families functioned. And so when we start to look at like how race and class played a really big part into how we parent today, I want to know parts of that. The problem is that I don't have a village, right. So I'm trying to do things like ancestrally that require a village without a village, don't get me wrong, my family is out here with me, they help as much as I can, but we don't live together. And that's why I am doing the whole, I'm building an intentional community with eight other black mothers because I need, we all need to be in very close proximity to one another, to receive the help that we need to be better parents. So when I don't have it, because there's days I just don't, and those are the days I call just keep everyone alive days, where I don't do shit, but lay down and she gets to basically run the house. I'm just trying to keep her alive that day, because I don't have anything to give her a lot of spoons about energy and burnt out. If I was in a village, though, someone will come and take her right and entertain her and be with her and feed her properly. There's love chicken mcnuggets I happen on that day. And I don't care.

  KC Davis 26:56

  Well, the proximity thing is huge, because like, I'm really blessed to have some very close friends, close, emotional, intimate, vulnerable, I can tell them anything. But none of them live near me with the exception of one or two. And the ones that live near me have kids my similar age, and you would think like, oh, they're such great help. It's like, No, we can't help each other at all, because we all have the burden of our own whole nuclear family and house and care tasks. And like, it takes all of our time just to take care of what we have here. And you know, one town over, it takes all of their time to take care of their stuff, they're in the schedule, that it's actually really hard to get together. And when you do get together, it's like you can get together for a social thing. But that's different than like, Let's wash our clothes down by the river. Like, you know what I mean? Or like, my kids are going to run over to your house because I have something to do and then maybe I'll make dinner and we'll eat together. I mean, it's I used to be jealous of like it no way like covet, like Mormon polygamist wives, but I do sometimes get jealous about like the setup of, you know, three houses together with one shared backyard, and everyone is just helping each other. And

  Yolanda 28:12

  I mean, but you can still you can do that. Now, though. Maybe you can, like I'm literally working towards that very thing, we're gonna be limited. But I'm literally working towards that we're going out to Georgia performing a land trust. And we will do that exact thing, farm and everything else. Because the systems are not set up for Healthy Families. If you really think about it, everything when it comes to how we sleep, our children sleep to us, our decision to go to college, everything is really centered around capitalism. It really is. I'll send you this video when we get off. And it's around the why sleep training came about. And a lot of it was rooted in racism. But a lot of it was also because of capitalism, because of the church that says, hey, sleeping communities, perverse. It's not supposed to do it. It came from disease because people were so nasty back in the day, that it like people were catching diseases loving to live in such close proximity together.

  KC Davis 29:08

  So you're forming a community, intentional

  Yolanda 29:11

  community. So I'm doing that because I am trying to go back to that village where we are there for one another, there's a communal kitchen, but we have our separate dwellings and so on and so forth. It is necessary, like we can do that. But even just the other day, a friend of mine came called me and she was just like, hey, if you need me to help you with Gia while you get prepared for your parenting conference, let me know. And I was just like, yeah, so she came over and watch GIA while I worked. Like that, to me is a way that we can be in community with one another. It doesn't have to be where I hope that everyone starts getting back to the whole village mentality in an actual village, but since a lot of us feel like we can't, I want us to start thinking about like, how can we use what privilege we have to help someone else and fight Versa, right? People hear privilege and they get so upset because they think I'm only talking about race, but I have privilege of time, because I work for myself and I work from home. And so that same friend, I will pick her daughter up from school three days a week, from school and take her to the Child Development Center and come home, hour and a half out of my day, to help a friend who otherwise would not have child any way to transport her child. That is me being a village member and a community member. She then was just like, I want to help you do the same thing. So she came over my house and helped me with Gia with in brought her daughter and they played well I worked. And I was able to get some work done distraction free, kinda with the help of another adult, right? So we can figure out how can we be there for each other if you have the resources where you have time, and you love to cook. And you know, your friend does not have time, but they but they need a home cooked meal, cook some extra food, and maybe they can, I don't know, watch your kids sometimes like we start to talk to each other and figure out what each other needs and what we can do for one another, and start to live that way. So we're not so dependent on these systems, and we're not so individualistic.

  KC Davis 31:09

  That's great. Okay, after we take a break, I want to come back and ask you about some specific things that people can do to start to decolonize their parenting. Okay, we're back with Yolanda from decolonizing parenting. And I do want to say one thing that I love about you can I do

  Yolanda 31:28

  that? Oh,

  KC Davis 31:32

  one of the things that I've noticed about a lot of parenting experts in parenting spaces, particularly the ones that are led by white women, is that whether they intend to do this or not, there's this message that if you could just master and they do this even in like gentle parenting spaces, if you could just master gentle parenting, you wouldn't be struggling so much with parenthood, you wouldn't have so many behavior problems with your kid you wouldn't have like, it wouldn't be this hard, like. And so a lot of a lot of it draws a lot of people in because they are experiencing a really tough time with parenting. And they're looking for like the hack that will make everything easier. And what I appreciate about you when you talk about parenting and conscious parenting is that even when we are doing all of the quote unquote, right things, we're being conscious parenting, we're being responsive, we're being we're in an environment, that itself is going to be the barrier. And so we're still going to have survival days, we're still going to get angry and need to walk out of the room. And that's not because we're not being a good enough conscious parent. It's because there's no amount of conscious parenting that is going to overcome being a single parent or living in a capitalistic society, or needing to go to work when you haven't slept, or having been traumatized by your own parents, and now still dealing with this. And I find that that is rare in the parenting world to talk about that. At the same time.

  Yolanda 33:06

  Yeah, it's disappointing. And it's the reason why I choose to be so vocal about my own hangups and my in my own mistakes, who I want to humanize this whole thing, it is not just about like, talking softly and giving choices and like absolutely not the conscious part of conscious parenting is you being conscious of your trauma, your mood, your mindset, how your social economic status may be impacting right your decisions that you're making. And it's going to look different for everybody because of these issues around race and class and privilege. So my parenting as you know, a black single mother, who is has a visible disability, but who was able bodied parenting, an autistic child is going to be completely different than yours, right? And I want to hold space for for all of that nuance. And just tell people like, the more that you go within, the easier it does get, the more habit you can form to be conscious. But I feel like what these coaches are doing is telling people how to do conscious parenting, instead of How to Be conscious people. And so that's where it's different for me, because I just want you to be a conscious person, because those conscious as we learn more about ourselves, about our triggers, about how we respond to those triggers, how we communicate our coping skills. It's not just the parenting that's affected. It is literally every single relationship with every human being we come across. And so my goal with conscious parenting is not just about these kids, it's really about the world, right? Because I think about how many hurt people are walking around here and we don't know how to communicate. I mean, look at that thread or thread like we can see it people don't want to talk to one another. We don't care to have respectful communication with one another. So many hurt people walking around here being hurt, and just bleed all over everybody and not caring. And I just envision a future where people do care because we've been empathetic, we've listened to them, we've told them that their voices matter that their feelings matter. But there's boundaries, right? You don't get to speak to me like that just because you're upset. We've taught them boundaries, we've taught them respectful communication intact. And we've also taught them that everyone is not deserving of respect all the time. Right how to advocate for yourself, when to be violent. Like, for me as a revolutionary, there's space for violence in this world, just not against the most innocent among us, which is children. So it's like having that conversation being teaching those things to our children, for a more liberated future for everybody. Like, that's what I how I approached my coaching business, versus like, it feels like very present, the way that people are coaching people versus me, I'm more like, futuristically, we're doing this for future generations, I want my daughter to not have to go through the things that I'm going through now. So I'm hoping that she is just like this, because it's like, normalized, and it's who she is, if she chooses to have children, that they're that she she just does this naturally. She's a conscious parent naturally. And it's just the freakin preset. It's not, you know, she didn't have to learn it. It's just who she is, it becomes who our children are. And if we had millions of people who is just how they are, the world will look completely different.

  KC Davis 36:14

  It's so powerful, what you said about violence, because I, whenever you hear parents be like, if somebody hits you hit them back, and it's like, that doesn't sit right with me. And when I became a parent, and I have kids, there's also something that doesn't sit right with me to tell my daughter, there's never a reason to push them why there's never a reason so and I've told her before, like, if you don't like the way that an adult is touching your body, you tell them to stop. And if they don't stop after the first time you start screaming and pushing, right like, and I've told her also, if anyone is ever hurting your little sister, you are to immediately physically engaged with them. Like you said earlier, like everything is nuanced. But like I don't find any benefit and teaching my white daughters that passivity is always the right thing. And like you said, it's not about violence is never the answer. It's about oppression is never the answer, right? Like, no, don't ever push or hit your sister. She's little. She's your sister. But absolutely. Anybody else do we ever be let anybody else do it either. One of my good friends who's also a therapist, who does parenting stuff, like I tell my kid, never start a fight. But if somebody else starts one, you need to end it need to finish it. And she doesn't mean like, be bigger, stronger, hurt them. She just means like, you're not gonna lay there and just let somebody punch you.

  Yolanda 37:40

  No, no, we're not. I don't want you to ever start anything. And that's the problem like, and this is why I follow up so close with her at this at the park. Because she is like I said, She's autistic. She doesn't understand boundaries, right? So just the other day at the park, she pushed this girl so hard, and I was very close. So I was able to to tell her like, I'm so sorry. She's not supposed to be doing that. And I do. It wasn't looking at me. But I was just like, Gia, we don't push it like we need to go over here. The problem is that, again, folks just see the action and they don't have any there you know, and all these things will circulate on like tick tock and what would happen if your child got pushed by this bigger child, my bigger child is autistic doesn't understand boundaries. So um, as a parent, I'm right up behind her. But that's also my fear. So as a child who is autistic and cannot speak up for herself, because she does not speak very many words, that she's going to be harmed. So I'm very overprotective of my kid. And I hope that she's able to do some sort of self defense classes because I want her to learn some jujitsu. I want her and um, I want self defense in like the martial arts because they also teach you like restraint. Yes, restraint.

  KC Davis 38:49

  Yeah, that's what I actually really this is totally a tangent at this point. But it's important. I love jujitsu. I plan to have both of my daughters do it because especially some of the gyms like they actually teach it with an anti bullying curriculum where they talk about like, we never use our skills to hurt anyone. But if somebody is hurting us, or if someone is hurting someone else, we use our skills to hold that person down and call for a teacher.

  Yolanda 39:14

  It's a mindset shift for kids into really how we think about violence needs to shift and in the thing about violence in a country that is was literally built on violence. It perpetuates violence every day and how it does not take care of its citizens and skews the perception of what violent people look like. We have to be cognizant of the messages that we give our children, especially white children around violence I posted on Tik Tok recently, a black woman said White people don't want their kids. And I was like, Who told you that shit? Like, they certainly do. What are you talking about? But that is the perception that a lot of people have. And that's why when as a black coach, I hear that some White people should I'm not doing that I'm not doing a gentle parenting. That's why people stuff. And I'm just like, so what I'm hearing you say is that white people are more inherently gentle, and that inherently more loving with their kids. And we are not. That's what you're saying. And you may not know, that's what you're saying. But you're basically regurgitating really racist rhetoric that and that's just absolutely not true. And then the thread of people are just like, I got my ass kicked, like, What are you talking about?

  KC Davis 40:24

  Yeah, when I think about the stereotypical picture of like, a father with a belt saying, like, come here. It's always a white father, like, at least that's what I saw. With friends and family. And what we have started to land the plane here. And here's how I would love to end it. I'd love for you to share something in your parenting that is working really well, right now, just like a joyful sort of like, maybe it's a strategy or intervention or like a way of being that is seems to be working really well for you.

  Yolanda 40:56

  So when Julie and I got COVID, back in January, I was trying to figure out what the hell we're going to do for 10 days. And it turned out, she teaches me so much this is the whole point of that is that she teaches me a lot. And I feel like if parents are open to allow their children to teach them things, they will learn so much. What she taught me was the value of slowing down, and the value of visioning. Because she was like, I don't want to grab this house. I'm like, I don't know what to do. So we would just take drives in the country, and I was resisting every day for 10 days, we took a drive because she was like, I gotta get this house. But now it's like a thing that we do. We take drives through the country almost every night. And this is, you know, we're trying to move on to a farm in the country. So it actually allows both of us to like, just be in the environment that we that at least I want to for us to be in and I get to vision, and I get to slow down and I get to not be on my phone because I'm always on it. And I really get to like point out things to her. Oh, do you see the cows because I live in Arkansas, y'all. Do you see the cows? Do you see the horses like and we stopped sometimes and like look at ducks and there are walks into the pod. And her just sort of because she used to throw tent like she would just she would fall all the way out if we didn't leave the house. And that was the only way and I thought it wasn't going to be enough. And it is every day, she puts her shoes on the wrong feet. And we go and we get into the car. And she is so excited just to take a drive. And we've seen deer you know, as we were just like, Please don't come in front of me there. Don't do that. But it allowed us to slow down allowed me to slow down and to vision the life that I hope which is a slow life, which is eat a life filled with ease and rest and more visioning and not this frenzy that we're constantly in, and not the social media that I'm constantly on. This is what I'm what she made me do is what I actually want to be doing. And I but I resisted it. So just listening to her and being able to learn from her. Is has been, that's to me the biggest lesson. It's just like, she knows things too. She knows things and be willing to listen to it.

  KC Davis 43:03

  Okay, so where can people find you if they want to come and learn more from you?

  Yolanda 43:06

  Okay, I have a website, parenting decolonised.com. I'm also on all the social media. So Instagram is spelled funny. So I'm just giving you the I'll give you the link. But I'm on all social medias. And I also have my own podcast called parent to be colonized. And it's available anywhere you listen to podcasts, or Spotify. And I talk about how we can be colonized our parenting to raise more liberated children. I do send to the black family. But these conversations are for everybody. Because I believe especially for white people we need to be y'all need to be hearing these stories and understanding these things as well.

  KC Davis 43:42

  Well, Yolanda, thank you so much. This was an awesome conversation.

  Yolanda 43:45

  Yeah, so much fun. Thank you for having me.

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Welcome to this bonus episode! For the next few weeks I’ll be putting out some bonus content, and today we will explore coping skills. It’s a phrase that’s become a buzzword in the psychology world right now, along with emotional regulation, feelings, and trauma. Let’s clarify these concepts that may have gotten watered down with a closer look.

 Show Highlights:

●      “Emotional regulation” defined and explained: what it is and what it is not

●      The definition, Part 1: “Emotional regulation is the ability to respond to the ongoing demands of experience with a range of emotions and in a manner that is socially tolerable . . .” It is OK to have your feelings!

●      The definition, Part 2: “ . . . and sufficiently flexible to permit spontaneous reactions, as well as the ability to delay spontaneous reactions as needed.” Being emotionally regulated doesn’t mean you are a robot!

●      What it means to operate within your “window of tolerance,” the optimal zone of arousal (not in a sexual sense, but nervous system activation) for a person to function in everyday life

●      How your window of tolerance has red zones at the top and bottom of hyper- and hypo-arousal

●      The learning zone vs. the comfort zone

●      How coping skills help us bring ourselves back to the window of tolerance in the comfort zone

●      Why we should morally neutralize ALL coping skills

●      Examples of coping skills that help you stay out of the red zones and regulate well

●      Why self-compassion is THE most important coping skill

 Resources and Links:

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  0:05 Hello you sentient balls of stardust, welcome to struggle care, with your host, KC Davis And welcome to the bonus episode, I'm going to be putting out some bonus content for the next few weeks. And today I'm gonna talk about coping skills, coping skills is one of those words like emotional regulation, I've become really hot right now. Because I feel like there's a lot of talk in the psychology world about feelings and about trauma. And I just wanted to give you guys some information that I think will really clarify some of these concepts that I think have gotten a little watered down. So let's get into it. Let's start with the definition of emotional regulation. Because I've seen some people talk about emotional regulation in ways that I don't think is very helpful. And there's a example definition from the Cornell research study that says, emotional regulation is a term generally used to describe a person's ability to effectively manage and respond into an emotional experience. And I like that, but the best definition I've actually found, is in Wikipedia, and I like it because there are there's like five parts to it that I want to break down for you. It says emotional regulation is the ability to respond to the ongoing demands of experience with a range of emotions, and a manner that is socially tolerable and sufficiently flexible to permit spontaneous reactions, as well as the ability to delay spontaneous reactions as needed. Now, that's really a mouthful, I want to break it down piece by piece. So first of all, I mean, can you hear me panting? I swear to God, I sound like I just ran. And I just walked in here and sat down, and I realized I should have like, taking some deep breaths anyways, okay, the ability to respond. Let's start there. What does that mean to respond? Well, in this case, we're going to be talking about our behavior and our decisions, respond to what will the ongoing demands of experience, cut, I love that. I mean, it's kind of a fancy way to say life. But yeah, like life has demands, like, we're going to feel feelings, and we still have to do life. Okay, so we have to be able to respond to the ongoing demands of experience with the range of emotions got, that's so good. Because I can't tell you how many times I've seen people talk about regulation, as if it's the same thing as calmness, like being calm is not I mean, it is part like it can be like regulation can be being calm. But that's not all it is, you can be angry and be regulated, you can be sad and be regulated. You could be jealous and be regulated, you could feel shame and be regulated. Like being regulated doesn't mean not having feelings, it doesn't mean having small feelings, it doesn't mean being calm, especially in the face of something that a reasonable person would not feel calm in. So it's the ability to respond with a range of emotions in a manner that is, and then there's two things one, socially tolerable, God, the word choice is so good. And it didn't even say socially acceptable, because this isn't about, you know, doing right. It's socially tolerable. Right. And the way that I would expand on that is that was, that means, basically, unawareness, of the social repercussions for yourself and others of whatever behavior or response you're about to have. When I say that, again, awareness of the social repercussions, so you're about to react, you're about to respond. And you want to be able to respond in a way where you are taking into account basically like the social fallout of how you're about to respond. So that can be something as simple as hurting someone's feelings. It could be burning a really important bridge, it could be committing a crime, right? Now, you can, I mean, you could hurt someone feeling on purpose, it doesn't necessarily mean every time that you hurt someone's feelings, you're being dysregulated. But what we often see is we get emotionally dysregulated. And we end up making behaviors and decisions that are not socially tolerable, right. So that second part is not only do we want to respond in a manner that socially tolerable, but we also want to respond in a manner that is sufficiently flexible to permit two things, spontaneous reactions, as well as the ability to delay spontaneous reactions. Whoo. So let's talk about it. What that means. First of all, it says spontaneous reactions. This isn't about being a robot. This isn't about not having strong feelings or not having real feelings or being measured and nothing bothers you, and you are unbothered. It's not about that at all. It's the ability to balance the needs of honoring an authentic emotional experience, which is what you really feel what you really want to do, and the effects that such behavior will have on yourself and others. So the ability to feel your real feelings and to navigate them in such a way that you can feel your You'll feelings, basically experience what you really feel, do what you really want to do, and balance that with what you really want for yourself after this moment has passed, right? Because I don't want to lean into what I really feel hurt feelings, burn bridges commit crimes, right? And then now I've created a situation I don't really want for myself, whether that's a broken relationship or jail time. And then when you talk about also the ability to delay spontaneous reactions. I love that. Because sometimes I'm having a big reaction to something and I need the ability to put it on the backburner. As a therapist. Part of that is, you know, if somebody says something to me in a session, that hurts my feelings, I have to be able to put that on the backburner and deal with it later, if something horrific happens to me or in my life, but I still need to take care of my kids, I have to be able to delay those spontaneous reactions when I need to, I'll never forget going through a miscarriage. And but I still had to take care of my 18 month old and it was like, okay, like, yes, I want to honor my spontaneous reactions to this. But I do need the ability to delay those spontaneous reactions, or I will fall apart and not be able to take care of my kid. And then what do we mean by reactions, so I came up with like, five things. When we talk about spontaneous reactions, our feelings, obviously, our thoughts, our emotion related behavior. So this would be things like facial expressions, these are things we're not really choosing to do. They're just happening, maybe, you know, facial expressions, pacing, yelling, and then emotion related physiological responses. So heart racing, sweating. And then lastly, decision based behavioral responses. So the decision to walk out and slam the door, the decision to, you know, punch somebody in the face the decision to say something hurtful, those are the sort of what the reactions are. And again, we don't want to go so far on one way, that we're not having any authentic reactions, which buttoned up all the time. But we don't want to be so far on the other end, that we think every single spontaneous reaction to an emotional experience doesn't have to be mitigated or thoughtful or restrained in any way. Because again, that's how we end up with social repercussions that don't line up for the goals we have for our lives. When we talk about emotional regulation, let's kind of take it to the top. It's the ability for you to authentically experience the emotional experiences of life while still dealing with the demands of life in a way that balances, being able to honor what you authentically feel and experience and the effects that your reaction might have on the environment around you, and ultimately you and the people you care about, and to be able to move through your thoughts, feelings, emotion related behaviors, physiological responses, and decision based behavior responses in a way that does that. Well, now everybody has an ability to regulate, some of us have maybe what's called a wide window of tolerance, some have a small window of tolerance. And what the window of tolerance is, it's a concept originally developed by Dr. Dan Siegel. And it describes the optimal zone of arousal for a person to function in everyday life. So when we say arousal, we usually hear that in a sexual instance, but it refers to really any nervous system activation.

  When a person is operating within this zone or this window, they can effectively manage and cope with their emotions, right. So that arousal, here's that nervous system activation or that stress, and anytime we're experiencing distressing emotions, they're stressed they're there's nervous system activation there. And trauma does affect your window of tolerance, your early childhood abilities, experiences affect this. And this idea is that when you're in your window of tolerance, you still have ups and downs. So being in your window of tolerance does not mean being calm, it just means you're able to emotionally regulate Well, you might feel stress or pressure, but it doesn't really bother you that much. But you have your little ups and downs throughout the day. Now outside of that window of tolerance is sort of this what I call this red zone, both on the high end and the low end, the high end would be like a hyper arousal This is extremely anxious, out of control way overwhelmed. This is your body and brain going into fight or flight where your reactions just take over. And on the low end of it, you have what's called hypo arousal. So this is zoned out numb frozen. This is that freeze response. Again, it's not something you choose that reaction just takes over. So if you think of your little window, and then you think of kind of these red zones on the top and bottom, but there are other zones in there, too. There's this yellow zone. It's like this buffer zone in between your comfort zone inside that window and just total fight flight or freeze. And that stress zone is sometimes also referred to as the Learning Zone. It's where there's enough stress for you to be enough activated to be learning something New think about your muscles, right? Like you have your window of tolerance for your muscles, you could walk or you could rest, but everything's pretty, you know, easy. And then you have like that learning zone, this is where you maybe you go to work out or you go to run, and it pushes your miles, it challenges your muscles, right, and it that's good and your muscles might feel sore. And it might be really difficult. But in the end, it's making those muscles stronger. But we also know that you can push muscles so far that they don't get stronger, it actually makes them weaker, right? It's pushed too far, well, your nervous system and your emotions, they're the same. There's this comfort level, that's fine little ups, little downs. There's this learning level, we're being challenged, we're being stressed. But it's not something that overwhelms our coping skills. And then of course, you can be pushed so far that you're in fight or flight and you can't learn anything in those states. So tolerable stress Learning Zone uncomfortable, but your skills for coping are not too overwhelmed. This is actually a really good thing. And you'll hear sometimes there's an old phrase that a therapist used to say no comfort in the Learning Zone. And no learning in the comfort zone or no comfort in the growth zone, no growth in the comfort zone. And we know this right? Like sometimes, if you are asked to do something scary what a good example is if you take somebody that has agoraphobia, and they're wanting to work on their agoraphobia, well, staying inside the house doesn't make their agoraphobia better. In fact, it can make it worse if they're just never leaving. But at the same time, if you were to say, okay, that person needs to get in their car and drive down the block. Okay, well, that might be too much that might actually make the agoraphobia worse. So that's why therapists will look to find that yellow stress zone. So they might say, Hey, can you take Can you just open the door today, just open the door and look outside. And so the person will open the door and they'll look outside, and they will feel stress. But they'll work with their therapist for coping skills that they can use while they're feeling that stress, to begin to acclimate to grow that window of tolerance until eventually, they can open the door and it feels in their comfort zone. And the key here is not just exposure, its exposure and coping skills. So we don't just say, open the door until it doesn't bother you. Now you need coping skills as well. But let's talk about coping skills. What are coping skills, coping skills are how we attempt to bring ourselves back to that window of tolerance to that comfort zone. And there's a lot of moralizing that we do about coping skills. We talked about coping skills, we talked about defense mechanisms, we talked about maladaptive coping skills we talked about. So for a long time, we've been doing this and now we get to where we feel like some ways of coping are healthy. Some ways of coping are unhealthy, some are wrong, some are good, some are bad, some are whatever I want us to backup and maybe just morally neutralize all coping skills. At the end of the day, a coping skill is just how we are attempting to bring ourselves back into that window of tolerance and safety. Anything you do to downshift and activate a nervous system and decrease distressing emotions is a coping skill. So that means self compassion, counting to three when you're angry, calling a friend event icing your vagus nerve, taking a walk calling a therapist venting, journaling. But it also means drinking smoking, watching TV for hours scrolling tick tock maladaptive daydreaming, checking out not talking to isolating for days, I think it's really helpful to not think of things as inherently good or bad when it comes to coping. And instead, think of those all of those skills as having a cost benefit ratio. And one good example of this is if you think about a person who is autistic, and they're masking during the day, and so masking is a way that autistic person presents themselves as if they are neurotypical. And it's exhausting for them. But it's something that they do to get through a situation that involves painful or distressing nervous system experiences with the least amount of pain possible. And there are times when an autistic person masking is what gets them through the day. It's what protects them. And there are times when masking costs too much. And it causes other painful situations to collaterally crop up in your life, that overwhelm your ability to deal and now you're trying to find coping skills to deal with the fallout of the coping skill that gets you through the day. And all of that is morally neutral. It's just about your personal cost benefit. It's about you deserve this wide window of tolerance that allows you to experience what the world has to offer in a way that allows you to behave in a way that creates things that align with the goals for your life. You can live a joyful life

  there are some coping skills that are so overwhelmingly good at turning the off switch of painful emotions, like doing cocaine, like isolating for days and not talking to somebody and the issue is is not that they're bad or wrong. It's that they solve the problem in the moment so Well, but they do not help you learn any internal emotional skills that would help you widen your window of tolerance in the long run, which would allow you to deal with a greater and greater breadth of emotional experience. In fact, it can do the opposite, it can shrink your window of tolerance, some of those coping skills that are so good at just turning off the pain, end up creating this collateral painful experiences in your life, that bring lots of pain that you still don't know how to deal with. But you didn't have the skills to deal with the pain when it was at two. And now the cocaine has created situations that are at a 10. And you still don't have any more skills except turn it off with cocaine and with the cocaine, right like that is the crux of addiction. The best coping skills are the ones that provide the immediate help of downshifting in the moment, but allow you to work to widen your window of tolerance in the long run, right. So you know, doing cocaine, when you're sad is not going to open your window of tolerance in the long run. So we want to fight you deserve different coping skills. That's what I'm getting at. So other coping skills may not be as good at getting rid of the painful emotions immediately. But they do it enough that you know, you're safe, they keep you in the discomfort of learning. And it might take longer to recenter. But in doing so you begin to widen your window of tolerance. So what kinds of coping skills are out there? Well, I mean, I just listed some and and in some ways, literally any, almost anything can be a coping skill. It's just things that you do to stay out of those red zones and regulate well. And obviously, it's an infinite amount, not going to go into them here, because I could talk forever. But in general, when we blow our top, and we get to that fight or flight, what you need at that moment, is soothing skills, things that help you ground in the present moment. And when we bought them out, we freeze or dissociate, what we need is gentle stimulation and orientation to time and place. And it's not one or the other, it's common for people to kind of go into fight or flight. And then their response to that is to shut down afterwards. So it's not linear, you know, you might go up the top and then bottom out, some people just bottom out. And remember that these places are really places have a resting, it's not just I'm stressed out. And then lastly, I want to make it clear that going into fight flight or freeze on is not always avoidable. It's not always just because you didn't have good enough coping skills, there are certain things in this world that are going to trip your nervous system into this extreme state, it does not mean that you're not healthy enough or mature enough. Or if you just had better coping skills, there are just certain things that are traumatic, there's no amount of coping skills that can prevent you from going to that place. When that happens. The coping skills are about learning how to get out of that place and back to safety. And ideally, yes, we want coping skills that can help us kind of circle the wagons back around before we get there. And we want a good wide window of tolerance so that we can enjoy everything the world has to offer, and not be in as much pain. But there's no you could never therapy yourself to get a wide enough window of tolerance, where like nothing bad could ever happen to you. You still might go into fight or flight, you're still going to have traumatic things, you're still going to shut down, you're still gonna do this, you're still going to do that. But I think what can be helpful is morally neutralizing some of those coping skills, and instead just looking at them not as Are you doing good. Are you doing bad? But what of those coping skills are really working for you? And which ones aren't working for you? And what could you add to your arsenal that might work a little better. And so I hope that gives you some things to think about today. And I wish I could, you know give you a plan on a platter of the exact coping skills that you need. But the truth is, is that the most powerful coping skill to start with is self compassion. And it starts with giving yourself those messages, that you're not wrong or bad, that you're just human and you're allowed to be human and you're allowed to make mistakes. And you're allowed to have whatever window of tolerance you have, and you're allowed to want more for your life and to take a gentle path to get there.

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Have you ever been told to “do a mindfulness practice” only to find that it doesn’t work? Let’s talk about some alternatives to mindfulness that can help with unhelpful thoughts and negative feelings. I’m joined by Dr. Raquel Martin, a psychologist who’s here to discuss this hot topic in the current “therapy talk.” She may sound familiar to you if you’ve listened to my audiobook, How to Keep House While Drowning, as she wrote the section about caring for black hair when you might be struggling.

Show Highlights: 

●      How Dr. Raquel defines mindfulness

●      How mindfulness helps us distance ourselves from unhelpful thoughts and negative feelings

●      Why it’s helpful to think, “This is just a thing”

●      Why mindfulness is not the best fit for everyone

●      How a “stress kit” can be helpful

●      Why deep breathing is not the regulation answer for everyone

●      How alternatives to journaling can be beneficial without “writing”

●      Why therapy and coping skills must be customized to the individual

●      The difference in rules and boundaries

●      How different our world would be if people received mental health support

●      Why compassion and understanding are the keys in understanding a person’s mental health struggles and individualizing their treatment

 Resources and Links:

Connect with Dr. Raquel Martin: Website, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Mind Your Mental Podcast

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello you sentient balls of stardust, welcome to struggle care, with your host, KC Davis. That's me. And this is the podcast that probably knows that you are sick of hearing about mindfulness. And so we're going to talk about mindfulness, but in a way that maybe won't make you feel sick of it, because we're actually going to talk about some alternatives. And why you maybe have been told a bunch to do mindfulness, and it's not working. So I have with me here today, the great Dr. Martin, Dr. Martin is amazing. Don't let her tell you anything different. And she actually if you've ever listened to the audio book for how to keep house while drowning, you'll recognize her voice because she wrote the portion of my book about how to care for your black hair. When you might be struggling. I figured I could probably not cover that subject, as well. So Dr. Martin, thank you so much for being here.

  Dr. Raquel 0:55

  Oh, yeah, definitely. Thank you for having me. We really agreed on this like one topic, because I was just like, one thing I'm not going to do is tell you, you have to journal. Absolutely,

  KC Davis 1:05

  Yes. Oh, I'm so excited. So Dr. Martin, you are a psychologist. For anyone listening that doesn't know, I'm a therapist. And I feel like mindfulness has been like the hot topic in therapy for a while now. And I have to say that there are aspects of mindfulness that have been kind of game changing for me. But at the same time, it now feels like it's become like the panacea to all ILS. And I feel like it's like closely getting a little pop psychology II where like, just meditate, just journal, just be mindful. But I'm sure there are people listening that maybe don't even know what mindfulness is. So what definition would you give to someone just like a lay person that didn't know what mindfulness was?

  Dr. Raquel 1:47

  I typically talk about it in terms of like, it's the whole movement of being more aware of what's happening in the present moment, as well as like, instead of focusing on the intrusive thoughts that are happening outside, and the reason why a lot of times I feel like it's also been done wrong is because people will talk about tasks, like journaling, as like being in the present moment, but then they'll give them journal prompts, where you're meant to discuss like, how did I respond to something that happened like hours ago, which is not what mindfulness is, right? Like when you when one aspect of when we get trained it and when I knew that I was like, I'm gonna learn about this, but it's gonna be a strong though, for me, when I integrated into my own therapeutic technique, is we did tasks such as mindful eating, when all you're supposed to do is focus on like, chewing the reason? How are you feeling chewing? The reason? What is the texture in chewing the reason? What is the taste and chewing the reason? Like, what is the sound of hear you chew the reason, right, and doing that same thing when you are processing like your thoughts as they come in the moment, not like, Oh, I'm feeling stressed out. And it happened as a result of this 20 minutes ago, I'm currently feeling stress. And the stress in my body feels this way in that way, and things of that nature. And I do feel like it's very helpful for other people. However, it just never really resonated with me. And I also felt like, the way that I got education about it previously, is not the way I see it used by a significant amount of clinicians. And that's why I'm like, you know, I don't know if I am wrong about this, or if the general public is wrong about this, but either way, like, I'm just not going to, like, we get to choose what modalities we focus on the majority of the time, and people come to me for very specific thing. And I just found as though, you know, it's different when I give tasks such as let's look at your racial identity development and do journaling tasks. But that's not a mindfulness task. That's a, we're talking about processing the way this your development has dealt with everything. That's not mindfulness. And I've also felt really gross about it lately, because when I look at different clinicians of like color, and like indigenous background, stuff like that, they often talk about the way that it's been gentrified, and that it kind of is used inappropriately, so that also has made me not want to, you know, use it as a technique, because they mentioned a lot about like, well, this actually isn't anything different than what has been used in other cultures. However, the way it's been repackaged, is really inappropriate. And it's stealing from like native and indigenous culture. So that's always given me an IQ of about it as well, because none of my professors have ever been, who tried to discuss it native or indigenous, or like people with the golden majority. And yet, they're teaching me about this method. And I'm just kind of like, if you want to teach me about CBT, fine, but we're totally disrupting the whole education from the individuals that should be coming from.

  KC Davis 4:25

  Yeah, it is definitely an Eastern concept versus a western concept. And I think what I've seen also happen is that, as a therapist, and particularly like, as a white female therapist, so much of what I was taught was that like, the main problem in a person's psyche, is like the way they're thinking about things. And so my experience with a lot of therapists is that whatever modality they're using, and I've had it with a lot of different ones, they approach it as if like, okay, Casey, like your suffering will go away. If you could just master this modality and that only works with people where the only stressors in their life are like, the way they're thinking about things, right? Like not actual, I don't have enough money. There's some conflict with my spouse, I'm experiencing, you know, prejudice, like real things that like might not go away. And I will say that I'm with you. Like, I don't think people talk about what mindfulness is, I appreciate the definition of like, observing yourself in the present moment without judgment. Like, I think that can be really helpful. And I appreciate when people talk about like observing your thoughts, like clouds in the sky, because I will say that the way meditation was taught for a long time was about like clearing your mind. And I can't do that. And so when somebody was like, no, no, it's not about clearing it. It's just about like, watching it as it goes by. However, I will say the only thing that's ever for me, I felt like was like, what mindfulness could do is that I was thinking about this the other day, like, for a long time, when I experienced distress, it was like two layers. So there'll be like the primary distress of like, I'm angry at my spouse, but then there'd be like, this secondary, like, almost like meta distress of like, and I'm upset that I'm upset about it. Or like, I'm angry that I'm angry. I'm sad, that, you know, may or may be like, wake up in the morning, and you're like, I'm just feeling sad today. And I don't know why. But then there'd be like, a second layer of like, and I'm really sad that I'm sad. I'm not supposed to be sad. There's nothing wrong. Why am I feeling this way, and feeling as though like, there's always something wrong. And I will say that, like, I think it's not that I don't get SAD and MAD and feel depressed some days. But I feel like, I've learned how to not have that second layer. So like, I can beat wake up and be sad, and then be like, Alright, I'm sad today. Like, that's a thing. And it may not be there tomorrow. And it's kind of like, appreciating the impermanence of like, I may not be angry tomorrow, I won't feel like this forever. But it's also like, okay, for me to feel like I don't enjoy it. It's still distressing. But I'm not like distressed about being distressed, as if there's something wrong with it as if it's going to be permanent, as if I need to frantically figure out how to change it. And I don't genuinely like don't hear practitioners talk about that aspect, which to me was like the part of mindfulness that was helpful.

  Dr. Raquel 7:22

  Yeah. And you know, it's funny, because like, at one, like you're talking about the distancing aspect of it, right. Because like with mindfulness, you're supposed to like, distance yourself from the unhelpful thoughts and memories and just acknowledge them. But even the way that you discuss it is more helpful than the way I've heard other people discuss it, right? Because when you're distancing yourself from it, you're trying to do the same thing we do with like, not using diagnoses as adjectives, right? Like, you know, I am angry about this, I'm not an angry person, I am angry about this. And I'm not going to be angry permanently. Because it's not an aspect of my personality. I'm not defining myself as an angry person, I'm angry at my husband, and I will likely not be angry at him later. And if I am angry at him later, maybe I will not be angry. I have later on after that. But I'm not an angry person. Like, it's not a part of my personality. It's not an adjective that describes me, right? And most of the time when they're what I've seen people talk about it, it's kind of like what you mentioned, they're like, distance yourself from it. Right? Okay.

  KC Davis 8:16

  But that's not what I feel at all. I feel like I'm bringing it closer, because to me, there's distress from tried, like, I don't need to feel this way. I shouldn't feel this way. I don't want to feel this way. How can I get this feeling away? Something's wrong, how do I fix it? And to me, it's like, the opposite of distancing. It's like, I'm sad. And I, I'm gonna bring that in, like, I don't have to be afraid of it, or run from it, or panic about fixing it, because it's a temporary feeling, you know, of today, or like, it's a human feeling at least. So there's like, there's distancing and that, like, I'm seeing that, that, you know, things always change, Nothing stays the same. And so like, this negative feeling will change. But it's like, but I'm actually bringing, I'm like, not afraid, like, did you ever read is I don't, it might have been a Rumi poem, but where he talks about inviting all of your feelings in I have it, and he's like, let them come in. I'll look it up.

  Dr. Raquel 9:07

  Because to me, what you're describing makes me think more of like, Have you heard of like, the rain technique, like the you know, you recognize you acknowledge? Yeah, it's like, I did a video on it, where I use like a little Wayne song because he has a song where it's like, make it rain. I'll send it to you. But it's like, you recognize the emotions. And in the video I talked about, like, I was doing acting like I was working on an assignment. And then somebody came in, which was me, and I was like, you know, I came here to ruin your day. You know, I'm, I came here to ruin your day. And I look at the emotion and I'm just like, Oh, that makes sense. I'm feeling stressed out because I'm doing this assignment. As a result, I feel overwhelmed. And my emotion is like, well, I just came here to shut it down. Are you going to stop working and focus on me? And I said, Well, I'm acknowledging that your president I'm not really going to take you out of the room anxiety. I am feeling anxious because I'm in an anxious you know, situation. So like, go sit down in the corner. I see you. I get the church here, and I'm still just going to continue to work in and deal with that, right? Because you're recognizing the emotion, you're acknowledging where the emotion comes from. You're not identifying with it as like your individual, like you're an anxious person. And you're moving forward. You're like immutable trait. Yeah, it's just like, it's, and I think that's what like most people do, they'll be like, Oh, I'm an anxious person. Because it's like, no, it's like, I'm feeling just because I'm dealing with this. This is how it is, and doing it without like, having to dismiss it. Like, I'm not feeling that I'm fine. Like, it's not toxic positivity. Exactly. And that's why I go more so according to like the rain man, because the first one is recognize that is present. You know, I'm totally for the whole aspect of it, you know, you gotta like CBT is what insurance wants us to see us do. So we're like, looking at the cognitive distortions. And we're combating it with journaling and investigating where it came from, and what are things that support this thought versus go against this thought, and that's all well and good. Like, sometimes that will be helpful for people. However, sometimes, for a lot of people, it's just as helpful to be like, this is the emotion, you know, this even just identify, oh, I'm feeling upset, or I'm feeling distressed, or I'm feeling like this really took a bite out of who I am as a person and acknowledging that recognizing it. And then also not identifying with it, right, like I'm recognizing it, I'm acknowledging where it came from, from investigating it. I'm also like, the most important part to me of the array method is like non identification. Like I'm not identifying like, this is a key part of my personality.

  KC Davis 11:21

  So that's exactly this poem, I found that you want to hear it. It's called the guest house and it's a Rumi poem. It says this being human is a guest house. Every morning, a new arrival, a joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor, welcome and entertain them all. Even if they're a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house empty of its furniture, still, treat each guest honorably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight, the dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door laughing and invite them in. Be grateful for whoever comes because each has been sent as a guide from beyond.

  Dr. Raquel 12:00

  I feel like that's perfect. And that whole poem, it doesn't say anything about this is a good thing. This is a bad thing. This is just a thing. It's just a thing. That should be the title of this. This is just the thing. It's just a thing, episode.

  KC Davis 12:15

  I also think what a lot of clients have when they hear this kind of talk about like, Okay, here's that feeling the feelings not forever. My first thought is like, there are people who are in circumstances that maybe they don't see them changing quickly, or they have been feeling this distressing feeling for so long. And they're going, How is this any help to me? Like, I have been depressed for three years, How is this any help to me, I have been in a marriage where my spouse does not respect me, but I don't see a way out right now I have been in a place where I am in poverty and will be so for the future. Like, this is not a feeling that will I'm not wanting to laugh at the you know, in the morning, because it's gonna go like it's gonna be here forever. So I want to I'm curious those thoughts, and then I want to hear about you. And this whole conversation started because you made this brilliant Tiktok, where you talked about how you talk about mindfulness as an offering, and that for some people, it's not a good fit, and you actually have alternatives that you offer, which I really appreciate. But let me let's do a quick little break. And then we will come back.

  Okay, so first of all, what would you say to people who are listening that are like, well, this is all good, and well, but like, my shirt has been shipped for quite a long time. Now, most of the time, I want to refer them to kind of like your stuff. But I'm always like, I always say,

  Dr. Raquel 13:37

  I'm like, I'm the monarch of meeting you where you're at, we're going to use what works and not use what doesn't work, right. I mean, it's difficult with social media, because some people will see stuff, and they're like, that doesn't work for me. And I'm always like, then this wasn't for you. And that's okay. It's important to realize everything isn't for you. But sometimes when I'm talking about one, I try to look at whether it's an internal thing or an external thing, right? Because that's the biggest thing. So many times I feel like therapy can be dismissive, if you don't have an appropriately trained person, where they're telling you to think happy thoughts and focus on what's happening in the moment, and not also thinking about what we brought into the room with us in that moment. Right. The reason why I feel like some people at the Global majority don't resonate with the way mindfulness is taught when it's taught in an inappropriate manner is because it completely disregards the aspect of oppression that we have to reside in, right, like I can talk about in this very same moment, like feeling a certain way and acknowledging that and then I'll leave and go to work, where I am, you know, the victim of like institutional oppression and internal questions, stuff like that, right? So when we're identifying skills, I typically say use what works and doesn't don't use what doesn't work. And I look at different aspects of it. One of my patients who I feel like she was very sensory person, and she was like me in a job where there's so much gray, like, there are so many where we have so much gray. So in talking to her, I was like, you know, it occurs to me that we have some similar aspects of our careers. And some of the coping skills I use are very, like black and white, they very much have an endpoint and that

  It helps me because my job doesn't have an endpoint. So how would you feel about some things that we look at Gatti towards certain senses? And she said, that seems good. And I was like, Okay, I crochet because I love the feeling of yarn. And I love the fact that if I mess up a knot, or if we even see if it's a knot, I can kind of just take it out and keep going. And the sensory aspect of just the tactile response of yarn like suits me. So we kind of spent some of the session like going over that, like, do you think that is helpful? You also mentioned that you're very sensory with scents as well, like, you know, when it comes down to it, how do you feel about you know, carrying around like a little aromatherapy spray, we created like what we created for her that was helpful was like a little pack, you know how everyone used to have those like makeup bags, I was a member of Ipsy for a little bit, so I had a ridiculous amount of makeup bags is when they used to send you makeup every month. And I gave her some because like Why pay for it, I said you can use a Ziploc bag, but I was like, I also got the so just take these makeup bags, and we created a kit that she would take with her it was kind of like her stress kit, right. And we put a lot of sensory stuff in it that she kind of resonated with. So we put like funny memes that she liked, like the visual aspect of it. We put like an aromatherapy thing in it, because like the scent aspect of it. And we also talked about the possibility of crocheting. But a lot of times when we look at skills to help us to help us in the moment, I think it's also helpful to look at things that bring you something that your typical wife doesn't bring you, right, like our job is very gray. So I'm like maybe it'd be a stress relief to have something that is concrete, where it's like this has an end date and a start date, right. It's one of the reasons why I like baking, I like baking more than cooking. Because cooking, you can kind of like play around with it and you can still come up good baking is very much controlled. And in a world where I'm dealing with so much lack of control, I like baking more. I like knowing that like, don't use a leveler use room temperature ingredients, just knock this out black and white. And I think sometimes when we're talking about coping skills, we also need to look at skills that give us something that are typical life doesn't like some people who have like, really concrete jobs may resonate more with like little art stuff that's like, oh, you know, like, I use the colors. And it turns out the way it turns out, it's meant to be that way. And when they go to work, it's very much this is the answer. But when they chill, and they're just doing watercolors, it's like, you know, happy trees or stuff like that. And then also look at it from a sensory perspective, a lot of us are really sensory, like a lot of us thrive off of like certain scents and tastes and touches and smells and stuff like that. How do we put that in your coping? What do we do with your Coping kit? Right? If you're more visual, how do we make your environmental just like you need like a more visually stimulating thing, when we're talking about panic attacks one time, like one of the stressors dealing with the symptoms, but one of the things that also stresses people is thinking that they're about to have another panic attack. Like when you mentioned your emotions on not only the emotion, I'm feeling bad about feeling that emotion, right. And it made me think of panic attacks because one of the stressors is the physiological symptoms. But another one is they stressed out about not knowing when the next panic attack is going to happen. Right? It's coming right it's coming don't have a panic attack. Now don't have it now don't have it. Now lock it down, lock it down. Just it's a very like it's a cognitive thing. And when I treat panic attacks on our treating patients, like when there's symptoms or like an increased heart rate, I make them have an increased heart rate. And then I let you know that you can bring yourself down like one of my patients had panic attacks, he said, every time I have an increased heart rate, I start thinking I'm going to have another panic attack, and then it makes it worse. So I'm like, Cool. So you're going to run around the building a couple of times, you're going to have an increased heart rate. And we're going to work on the ways that help you bring it down. Because there's only so many ways I can make you not you know, we can't really make you not have a panic attack. But what I can do is empower you to realize that when this happens, when I started had an increased heart rate in Dr. Martens office, I brought it down this way, right? Some people are more cognitive,

  KC Davis 18:30

  When even that permission of like, I'm allowed to have a panic attack right now. Like I'm allowed to like I can have one right here. Well, I'd be embarrassed probably have I been embarrassed before? Yep. Did I survive? Absolutely. But I'm allowed to have like, that's all right, I'm gonna find a good place to sit down. Like I'm allowed to have one right now. Because it is like so much of that panic. I think that's so true. And I can't remember who said this, but it maybe you saw it, but it was someone talking about like breathing. Like we hear that a lot. That's like a thing to talk about, right? Like, take deep breaths to calm down, take deep breaths to go grounding. And I remember hearing a therapist say like, you can't just go around telling everyone to take a deep breath, because for some people, that's going to be like more triggering to them. And she was talking about trauma patients, which I found really interesting. I hadn't thought of that before. Because for me, I'm always just thinking about, like, when we start to panic or get dysregulated you know, we're often like that prefrontal cortex where we do the thinking gets sort of goes offline, because we're gonna start to go into fight or flight. And the benefit of like breathing exercises is that you slow the heart rate down and you're like bringing enough oxygen to your brain that it cues that prefrontal cortex to go back online. But I thought she had a really good point where she was like, you know, for a lot of trauma patients, having them stop and do deep breathing. And I don't remember why she said that, but she was like, it is not helpful, like they need a different way to regulate. And I just always appreciate hearing someone say like, yes, because it's always like

  Some new thing, right isn't usually not new. But it's like new to popular psychology. And we realize how valuable it is. But then like, it reaches a point where it becomes the pop psychology and then it's like, everyone everywhere is just saying like this will solve it, just do this, just do this, just do this.

  Dr. Raquel 20:15

  And it's ridiculous, right? Because it's also like a thing of the time's right? Because there's so many people looking on the interwebs, because they don't have access to like services. And you mentioned this too, like, I very much feel like you can work on your healing and not have that help of a clinician, because most of you can't find a clinician totally understand that. But it gets so diluted, like it gets so diluted. And when people say there's one right way to do it, I'm always like, you know, use what works and don't use what doesn't work, right. Like one person, like I saw, they're like, I really resonate with journaling, but I just really don't like writing stuff down. Like I like the processing of it. I don't like writing stuff down. I said, do a voice memo. What you don't have to physically write I'm like, No, you could do a voice memo, you could do a voice memo. You can journal with pictures and identify like, don't feel bad, because you can't write it don't write, you can still process whatever.

  KC Davis 21:02

  I've heard people say that they when they got a journal that had the dots instead of the lines, that that was so helpful, because it felt like there wasn't yes, there wasn't this expectation that you write. And it's also helpful because it's not a blank page. And you're like, Well, I can't draw and it's like, okay, just connect the dots like, because I'm not like a good artist. But I would sit there and like make little trees out of the dots. And then I can write something. But then I don't feel it's just it's this very back when I had a workbook for a little while that was online. But that's when I did like free form pages. I always use dotted paper, like dotted graph paper. I know, I think that's helpful. I like that. That's very helpful. And you know, like, it's another aspect of like, maybe where you're at, right, because like some people can freeform right, I get that. Some people like prompts. So one post, I was like, ask your clinician knows your goals as much as you do. So if you're good at freeform, that's great. You can also ask them for some prompts that you feel like goes towards your goals. And they because I'm guarantee you they have questions that you can ask yourself that they want you to ask yourself that you could just answer is well, I had a client one time that we were processing a lot of trauma. And she didn't want to write about it, because she would have flashbacks. And so what we did was, each week, I gave her a question. And she would actually draw pictures as a response. So your question would be like, you know, how has therapy felt for you so far. And she would get the whole week to sort of think about it sit in it, and she would bring back a picture. So like she would bring back a picture of, you know, herself naked have stuck in the mud. And there were birds flying around and like so she didn't have to go to this place of thinking about such concrete words and memories and emotions, that she would kind of get thrown into a flashback, she could just sort of Intuit it. And then in the session in the safety of the session, we would look at the artwork. And I'd say, tell me about this. And she would describe the artwork. And that was the way that she was able to talk about what her experience was. And we did a lot of that with like, in the moment stuff like how is therapy felt for you so far? And what are you afraid of going forward with therapy? So we did a lot of like, meta expression about the therapy process before going into, you know, how would you draw your relationship with your mom, or some big, huge, whatever, but it was very, very cool. And like, at one point, I asked her like, what is it like to have a flashback? What is it like to have this trauma, and she would draw these pictures of herself like going about everyday life. And then there was like the shadow world that was always like on the periphery of her vision. And, you know, at one point, she had this beautiful picture of a closed door that she had locked in chains around it. And there were like, tentacles coming out of the sides. And she was like, if I open it, it'll be over. And each picture like, I was able to ask a question that was like a genuine like, I want to understand this more. And then she could go in her own way and process that. And we didn't have to do you know, tell me about it and do some deep breathing and and all that stuff that is can be super helpful, but shouldn't be like you said it shouldn't be that like prescription for everyone.

  Dr. Raquel 24:25

  Yeah, and think about like how powerful that is, right? Because a significant amount of my training is like trauma. And when we had to do like work with people on TF CBT, which, and they have to do their narrative, right. When we're working with children. We also allow them to like draw pictures. And it's one of the reasons why what some of the helpful things I did get from trauma focused cognitive behavioral therapy, is that when we did our training, the person who trained us was very much like this is because we were also working in a center where we also did an integration with the justice system. So not only am I working with them as the clinician, but I prepped, you know, everyone had an open case and I pray

  Have to my client for the case like we would walk through everything very much like how it should be if you decide to go through like with the whole judicial process, your psychologist talks to the district attorney talks to the officer talks to like everything like that was my job as well. It's like, I'm not only here for you, this is the process, Oh, I feel uncomfortable at the courtroom. Let's go. Let's go see it beforehand. That's how it should be. So I love when it's done right. Most of the time, it's not. But one of the things they told us is like when it comes to the narrative, the reason why people want us to like put it into the court case and stuff like that, it's because they think it's really like they're going to tear it apart piece by piece. We do not care as clinicians about what every single fact is, with this individual sharing their narrative. Because we are, and this is why I focus more on impact and not intent. Right? I am not a lawyer. If you feel as though something was, you know, like forever, like something like that. That's what it is. I do not care about facts without like, when we're discussing the narrative. It's your experience, you know, like, it's not about like, well, we're going to tear this apart in court to know about fact, by fact, oh, to me, the only fact that matters is the aspect that my patient felt this is truth. I don't care about the facts. The fact is, whatever my patient tells me, because that's what they felt. And that's what they experienced, right. And think about like the salience. And this is why a lot of people miss this as like licensed clinicians who are talking about this, because yes, we do get educated on this thing. But I would say the most salient aspect that I get is when I have a patient, and we go over crocheting, or when you have your patients, right, and it's like, oh, I can tell you what we can do piece by piece. But I can also tell you, this reminds me of this one patient I worked with who had really resonated with him to draw it, right, like practicing. Educating is one thing like having the degrees and certifications is the one thing, but most of it is when we're like off the cuff, giving everyone that the honor and the therapy that they deserve of case conceptualization and customizing it to you, and discussing what resonates with you and your individual skills, right to know that like, this also may be helpful for you. Because we get so much from our clients, right? Like Oh, aren't made work for you. But a voice memo may work for you. One of my patients does free guided freehand and writing out the prompt of once we come up with a prompt every single week. Some people do dots, some people do lines, and we get that from working with people. And that's why it's like, I think it's why both of us don't resonate when they're like everyone do this. We don't do that for all patients, because they're not.

  KC Davis 27:28

  And it's the difference I think between like a good therapist and a great therapist are like good therapy and great therapy is that some therapists are kind of one trick ponies. And that's fine. It really is like, if that's like this is my one approach. But if you're going to do that, then you have to be proactive about screening your patients and telling them point blank refer out.

  Yeah, I'm a CBD person, or I'm a DBT person. And like, this is what it is. And this Atlin let's make sure you're a good and I've talked about this before, there was a therapist that I worked with that he did things a certain way. And before he would even take me on he was like I need to screen you because if you've got a B, C, D, E, F, G, I don't do that, this will not be an appropriate process for you. And I think there are other therapists that have decided to have a more eclectic sort of toolbox, about things that work. And like, you know, same personality no matter what, like my personality is the same. But like, we can do art, or we can do CBT. Or we can talk about this or like I don't think that I was taught enough about like exposure therapy. I mean, so much of, you know,

  so much when we think about like distress tolerance. Because no matter what's going on, even if the things in your life can't change, like we can all reduce the amount of suffering in our life by increasing our distress tolerance. And I think that, you know, mindfulness says the way to do that is to sit in that feeling and feel that feeling and just embrace that feeling. But for some people, that's too much. Like they're going to be so flooded with that feeling that just skipping right to sit in that feeling and watch the clouds go by or whatever is like too much, as opposed to like, let's like you said where it was like run around the block. Like let's think of an environment that might bring this feeling on and then how could we experience it with safe risk? And because you usually only think about this with like, oh, agoraphobia, where it's like take one step out the door. Now take two steps, but like we can do this with other emotional distress, whether it's panic attacks or loneliness, right, like let's schedule a night to be lonely but only for a few minutes and then you go do something like thinking about like, that same feeling of I'm okay, like there is a central tree trunk that like runs through my being that I know that I'm okay. Even if like the wind is blowing, even if I'm experiencing really distressing feelings, symptoms, like there's this internal sense of

  have, like I can create enough safety to storm.

  Dr. Raquel 30:03

  So that makes a perfect point. But it also makes me think about that's why you're like the theory you came up with. That's why it's the theory you came up with. Because it It very much is an aspect of training. Right? I remember reading, there was someone who commented something on one of your page, and they were talking about boundaries. And you mentioned you're like, I actually see boundaries as a very different as a different aspect than most people because I was significantly trained in the aspect of boundaries, right? That's why when I came on my boundaries video, I was like, I have to send this to you first. Because like, I feel like this is what you say all the time. And nobody ever like verbalizes it right, right. Because you always talk about like boundaries are everyone I feel like who's trained in it gets it boundaries are guiding my behavior rules are guiding someone else's behavior. Like when I tell my students and said, Listen, my boundaries that I do not reply to emails over the weekend or after five, your boundary can be whether or not you do the same. But I'm telling you can send that email whenever you want. I'm not giving you a rule on this, my boundary is I'm not replying at this certain time I'm guiding my behavior, I'm not guiding your behavior, right. And that's it makes sense as to how you your theory is very much like this, you know, my boundary is when it comes to this space. If it doesn't serve me, I am not going to keep a space. I am not going to keep this under this ridiculous rule regarding folding clothes, or, you know, cleaning up the whole house at once. Because it doesn't serve me that's my boundary. Right? And very much saying that resonates with you, right. And I did a significant amount of training in trauma. And there is a lot of exposure in that piece. Right? There is a lot of I always say impact is more important than intent as someone who has to work with people on the impact that someone else's choices had on them, right. And that's why a lot of times, I'm always like, listen, I focus more on impact than intent. I also focus on some semblance of like, what the exposure is and what the distress tolerance is, as well, like when people say, I had no choice, that's not true. You just have to choose between one sucky choice and another choice, right, we have to decide which one distresses you more, a lot of times people will think like I have a it's a, you know, a very good decision or a very bad decision. But that's not what you're getting. In this scenario, you have to deal with some BS that someone put on you trauma stole your choice in that aspect, we have to, you know, like deal with some form of exposure. And then when we're dealing with distress tolerance, we go with like, you know, the whole ladder, the hierarchy, like what's going to make you less uncomfortable as we get up. Because no matter what, when I'm dealing with racism related stress, like you still have to go to work. I can't say that you can't go to work, you can't just leave this country. So let's figure out like how we deal with it. But it very much, you know, this is why I always thought maybe we could do another topic. This is why I always talk about like, you get so much salience from working with people who have made it a choice to streamline their training, I'm okay with knowing a lot about a little, because it really does help the individuals to to understand that right, like one of my favorite therapists, Colby Campbell, she mentioned, you know, everyone deserves therapy, everyone does deserve therapy, everyone deserves that space to resonate with taking the time to sit and deal with like what happens even if you know, the world is telling you to get rid of something that you stressed out about last week, therapy is one of those relationships, that is not really reciprocal. And all relationships are meant to be reciprocal. But I say that that's the power of therapy. It's like, yeah, you can ask me about my day, you also don't have to, I deal with you in the moment. And then I also case conceptualize with you, we also go over your plan or lack of plan, whether you want that or not. And I'm dedicated to you in that space. That's why we pay for like, specify people. And people will use therapy, like you need therapy as like an abrasive statement. And it's really like you deserve therapy. We all deserve a space.

  KC Davis 33:45

  The world would be so different if like if universal health care included therapy, because you deserve that. I would love someone to do like a study I read recently, there was a there was a school, I remember it was a little town, I think it was a school. And they did a study, they took all of the smartphones, away from the teachers and the students for a year. They all agreed voluntarily to do this. And they followed them over the year and checked back in to see like, how was your life and they reported some really interesting findings about the benefits that they found that year by not having smartphones. Now I don't I mean, I'm not one for like demonizing smartphones, but I wish that they would do that, like with therapy, like pick a school pick, you know, and decide this cohort of children will have therapy for the rest of their life and follow them and see how different you know, their life and the impact of the people around them would be if they were consistently supported in that way.

  Dr. Raquel 34:44

  That is amazing. And as someone who's currently writing grants for their lab next year, I don't know if they will be therapy, but I wonder if I could see if because I suppose it was a black identity development like what would it look like if we worked with the population and we follow them for Fortis

  Six years, and we specifically focused on socializing them appropriately.

  Ooh, if this comes out, you will definitely be in the acknowledgments. Yeah.

  KC Davis 35:12

  Thank you. Well, here's the thing is that it makes me think about the amount of studies and nonprofit initiatives out there that have this sort of like, Oh, if we just gave everybody, you know, like, they had the one where they, they were over, they were in a country in Africa, and they gave everyone D warming medicine. And they were like, it's, that's it. Now we're gonna go to school more, and they do this more, they do this more. And then you see all these studies about what if we give kids laptops in school? Or what if we had to? And they're playing with all these different variables? Like, what if we gave free lunches? What if we had this universal income? What if we had, you know, what if we did uniforms versus no uniforms? What if the teachers reflected who the students were, and I think all those variables are important. But I think it would be fascinating to see if the only variable that changed was that some of these children received mental health support, like maybe not direct therapy, but some sort of social emotional learning.

  And support, how different that would be, I like,

  Dr. Raquel 36:17

  love that full stop. That sounds amazing, because I think you could go into schools where they're already doing that, like my kid goes to a school where they do a lot of social emotional learning, but like, it's also like a private school, you couldn't say, oh, all of this is different, because they live because Piper learned that in the second grade, because the kinds of parents that send their kids to those kinds of schools are already doing that work at home. So you can't really and they probably have more money. And so all of these outcomes, you can't really attribute to that the school was that they had social emotional learning, because, well, there's money. There's your parents doing social, emotional, there's difference in the kinds of parents that send their kids. And I just think that would be so powerful. And I'm like, on the camera, and it's but it's kind of just like when I think I look up at someone who's not there, but like, that's a really good point. Okay. I mean, I hope you do it now. Yeah, well, I'm currently like writing grants to like, figure out what am I going to do for my lab in the fall? And that's a very good point, because I was going to try to work with this school. That's like a private school. But the reason why would have been helpful because they're very much like a blue.in, a red state, because I'm in Tennessee. So it would have been easier to get the buy in. However, just like you mentioned, that's not really helpful, right to show the efficacy of the actual program. Because if I'm dealing with the school, that's the blue dot and the red state, I mean, of course, they're going to be like, yes, how many parents moved to that area, because they wanted that for their kids. And those kinds of parents are already socializing their kids differently at home, versus going to another one and being like, oh, no, I was set up to fail. Okay, like this could have gone really bad. And it didn't. And what you're mentioning is like, kind of like what we discuss, kind of, to me, it makes me think about your work too. And like the work that I do as well, because the biggest thing I think people are missing are like perspectives. And I always say we're only as educated as the narratives that are shared, because more narrative shared or more perspectives, right. And what you're saying when it comes to longitudinal research is we get more information and more perspective. But as clinicians, we very much are like focused on the qualitative good clinicians, in my opinion, we're very much focused on the quality of what is shared, right? I don't care if I heard 50,000 stories that said this one thing worked, that one person who it didn't work for, we're coming up with another plan for them, right? It's very much the difference between quality and quantity, we get so many things about these methods. And that's kind of like with the mindfulness thing, too, right? It's like, well, this helps so many people, but it doesn't help my person, the quality of what they're sharing.

  KC Davis 38:41

  And if it's not helping them like and this was one thing that really changed for me, because I was very much brought up in learning to treat addiction. And I have lots of thoughts about the way we treat addiction in this country. But one of the things that was taught to me early on, was that like, if a client isn't getting it, then that client must just be unwilling, they must not want to be sober, they must be unwilling to do and so what happened was, we had all these that we were so niched down and like this is my one approach, that we could completely excuse our failures, or and something, it wasn't like, Oh, I did a bad job. But it was, hey, that didn't work. And some of that responsibility is on me not to blame me. But to go. Now I want to figure out what to learn and grow as a profession, to figure out other ways that I can help when this doesn't seem to be working for them. Because it's easy to write off a client as well, that didn't, they just weren't willing, they didn't want it badly enough when it's like, I mean, and maybe there are definitely people out there that don't want to get sober or that just want to play games or just want to whatever, but I should at least be able to offer them different approaches and modalities and things or refer them to somebody with a different modality. Because even if that is where they are, there are still modalities that can reach that person where they are and help them change.

  Dr. Raquel 40:00

  and my thoughts about that are twofold. One, you're at least as a psychologist, we're putting this environment we're supposed to know so many things. And they make it such a competitive environment when it's like cognition that I think there's some aspect of shame with clinicians when they feel like they have to refer someone out. Like they don't want to acknowledge that they don't know something. Because I mean, honestly, academia is very, it's very much like a shameful, like place like you didn't do a presentation, you didn't do this publication, you chose a B paper and stuff like that, like that's an issue. But it also made me think because I love group therapy as well of Yalom, who is like always lionized as this amazing group therapist, but I'll never forget when I, we were in class, and they were discussing how he decided that it was time to address and I forget the word that he mentioned, the client who was coming in late two sessions, like sometimes they were coming late to group sessions. And they were saying, clearly, they were avoiding being engaged in the session. Clearly, they don't want to heal. And I think that it is time that the rest of the group addresses this person's I forget what the word was, but aggressive address, basically, their lack of dedication or resistance, their resistance, it was resistance, and we need to address the resistance. And I remember when we're talking about in a class, that's interesting, because myself, I automatically go in, and this is coming from Community Mental Health and like dealing with people where it's just as simple as it's never a question of like, Are you paying for session? It's always like, Oh, I know, you're paying for session like nobody can, you know, you know, it's never that right? Me, I would automatically going to, Oh, I wonder if there's some resources I can do to help you come on time. I wonder if we need to, like, see if this group is for you. And maybe we can switch to a different day or time. Like I automatically went, in my mind when we're hearing the summary about Iago, who is just like the genius of all group therapy, we all have to learn about him. I automatically went to let me check in with the patient and make sure everything's okay, and see if there's something that I need to do to like help. Can I link you up with some resources? Do you need like a capsular was one of the places I worked at gay free capsules, if you came to therapy? Is it some family stressor? Like do you also need individual therapy, usually in group and this person automatically wit to like, attack him, he is disrespecting your time he comes to session late. He's not respecting the group. And I was like, it's so interesting. And you know, moral law. That's the thing. We jump right to moralizing the behavior, right? And I go to like, How can I help? What's going on? Like the same way, I had a student who kept falling asleep in my class, and it was this semester, and afterwards, I was just like, can I talk to you after? And he was like, Yeah, and you could tell he was already set up to be like, about to get in trouble. And I was just like, is everything okay? And he was like, I worked the night shift. And I come into class. And I know, I need to be present for the class. And I don't want to be marked absent. And I was like, Okay, well, I think you missed this. During our first week. I said, but I said, Listen, I don't do that when it comes to being present. I was like, it's very much a choice. And I said, also, I said, Honey, if you're sort of like, this is my honey, if you're not conscious, you're not President.

  You know, so I was like, you know, I just want to make sure everything was okay. I don't do that whole aspect of you can only have this amount of absences because you're an adult I but I do want to say that if you have questions about an assignment, a lot of times people ask them during class. So in order to accommodate that, if you can come to class once a week, make that the day if our class is on Thursday, review something on Wednesday, so you can ask me because you don't have two days to ask me because you can't come to the Monday class. That's what your shift is. But I automatically went to like, are you okay? Is everything okay? You know, like not, Oh, my God, my lecture is so boring. Like, when I can't believe they fell asleep. I was like, Honey,

  I know you were working on work.

  KC Davis 43:30

  I used to remember, did you ever this happened to you in school where like, if you yond there was always a teacher that was like, Am I boring? You Miss Davis, like, and I remember always thinking like, it's like now that you mentioned it. I remember thinking people don't yawn because they're bored, dumb as they yawn because they're tired. And that has nothing to do with you. I'm tired. So I just always thought that but yeah, I think and I know people are afraid like, well, you know, we have to hold people accountable. And that's true. But I also know that like, as someone's provider, I am best able to hold someone accountable from a place where they have experienced compassion and accommodation from me, because they're going to take me more seriously when I tell them. This is actually something that like, you might need to just do it. And then because I've believed them about their abilities and their limits, they go, maybe she's right, maybe I am capable of this. And she's not just someone that runs over the top of me and tells me every time that I should just be able to do it. She has recognized the times when I truly need accommodations, I truly need some grace. And so if she maybe maybe in this instance, there's enough trust there for me to go. Maybe she sees something I don't maybe I can do it.

  Dr. Raquel 44:44

  Because in that instance, you're modeling an appropriate rate relationship, right? Because it's, yes, we have all this training, but it's also the aspect of like the therapeutic alliance between you and your clinician. It's just as important to have that alliance with you and your clinician, right, because I believe in the whole Have you heard of like the dodo

  word theory where it's like, it came from Alice in Wonderland. And there was this race or something. And one person was like first and second, or third or 45th. And they were like, who won? And they were like, We all won. It doesn't, you know, everybody won, and it wasn't about. And then they say like, that's the same thing with therapeutic modalities. They're like, one of the things is, yes, some of these things work for people. But some of the aspect is like the therapeutic alliance that you have with someone by modeling appropriate relationships, like, like you mentioned, like by modeling compassion, that they see how they can be treated in an appropriate manner that they feel empowered to advocate for themselves. So it's kind of like, is it the fact that who won the race or we all won the race, it just matters that you cross the finish line? Is it CBT? Is it a CT? Is it DBT? ESG? Is it that LMNOP? You know, or is it just the fact that this person is clinician who was trained in different modalities and understood understands what I need in that moment in terms of the therapeutic alliance? Right? Because when it comes down to it, and when I'm like, training students, and they're like, you know, what's the best method? I'm like, Well, when you think of assessment, because we always start with assessment and trying to see what happens, you are the best, you are going to be the gold standard in terms of whether I'm using like a Beck Depression Inventory, or something like that, you're the assessor, right, because you are taking in information. That's why we constantly have to be educating ourselves, right and correcting ourselves, you are taking an education, and you decide if the root of that problem is attachment, you decide if the root of that problem is racism, you decide if the root of that problem is lack of knowledge around a skill, a skill, or empowerment and stuff like that. But that assessment comes from you. It doesn't come from the checklists, it comes from the fact that you educated yourself on these theories. You educated yourself on current events, you educated yourself on the narratives of other people. And you realize, like from my assessment, for my case, conceptualization, that's what we get. And I feel like a lot of people miss that in therapy, they think we're just talking and it's like, yeah, I would I'm be real with you. One. I don't talk that much in session. I think people assume because I'm a talkative person. It's like definitely a different person. Social media is not session me. And also because social media is not therapy. And it's also the fact of like, we do therapy, and then we case conceptualize, and then we help like with the plans, and then we check in like, the 15 minutes that shall see us or not the 50 minutes that I think about my clients, or my clients, like, are you serious, we would never make any progress. You know, I'm just like, I'm checking in on everything. So I think I feel like that's what a lot of people get wrong about therapy. And I think that's why they get it wrong with mindfulness too, right? Like thinking this works for so many people. Therapy is very much I shouldn't say boutique, because to me, that feels very luxurious. But it's very much like individualistic to you. Right? Like, I'm gonna be the expert in the room when it comes to psychology, but you're the expert in the room when it comes to you. And the same way, like your mental health is a fingerprint, your treatment plan is a fingerprint. Right? So if it doesn't work for you, we won't do it. Like, don't keep trying to make it work. Right. Like, oh, I kept trying mindfulness, I kept trying it. Why, you know, there's like 50 million trillion other things that could possibly help you, you know, like,

  let's go, like, Oh, it didn't work. Cool. Let's find something else. I always say like, let's figure out from a different perspective, but it's like if your sensory will go according to the senses. If your drum or cognition like when it came to panic attack somebody, some people do better with sour candy. Some people do better with naming a person from every single letter of the alphabet. That's sensory taste, that's cognition of thinking, some people can't think in that moment. So we do something else. Some people don't want to do diaphragmatic breathing. So it can helpful for them to have a stress ball. Some people do better with F it opposite action, you know, like, it's like, I feel like people, you don't need to feel the need. And this is where we both agree, like you don't feel the need to to put yourself in this box. Just because a skill doesn't work for you. Self Assessment is also helpful. Right? Like, if you feel like it doesn't work. You don't have to assume you're doing it wrong. You can just say that this isn't for you, and come up with something else because we have a million trillion ways to help you. And that's my job as a clinician anyway to be like, Hey, not Oh, I didn't do my homework. If you even do homework not you're being resistant, like okay, well, sometimes when people when I when people tell me they haven't done their homework one, I might have missed the mark on the homework two, homework isn't helpful for you. Three, you may have felt overwhelmed, I might have jumped the gun, or for you just didn't feel like it. All of these are valid. If you didn't feel like it. We're not doing it. Like it's just it's boutique shouldn't sound luxurious. But like, I really wish people understood that like self assessment word is just as helpful. We actually ask you to do it. So many people think, Oh, I saw this video. And it made me think I had ADHD, you'll think you'll go to a clinician, I'll be like, it was just a video or is that a different aspect of like information. It's not only about peer reviewed journals, blogs are helpful. Podcasts are helpful if you see yourself in this than you see yourself. And that's it. Let's go from there.

  KC Davis 49:35

  I love it. Thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation. And I feel like every time we talk, it's like, I feel like I could talk for hours fireworks.

  I really hope that you write the grant for that. That'd be so interesting.

  Dr. Raquel 49:48

  It's such a good idea. That was such a good idea though. Because so many times we're pinpointing one message but what you mentioned with longitudinal that's so it makes more sense.

  KC Davis 49:58

  Well and I'm developing a curriculum I'm for struggle care philosophy for like groups. So if you want to throw in some life skills things in there as as mental health help, we should link up on that.

  Dr. Raquel 50:10

  You don't have to threaten me what a good time. Right like

  KC Davis 50:14

  so where can people find you if they want to follow you on social media?

  Dr. Raquel 50:18

  On Instagram? I'm Raquel Martin, PhD are a qu e l Martin PhD on Tik Tok. I'm Raquel Martin, PhD on Facebook. I'm Raquel Martin, PhD. My website is Raquel Martin phd.com. I have a podcast where we're probably going to switch it out pretty soon. So mind your mental podcasts. We have two seasons. Next year, I'm actually going to be transitioning more to like a question answer portion because I really just want to be able to off the cuff answer stuff like I really just want to be like the black non problematic. You know, Frasier, Dr. Frasier,

  and with the podcast, I was just like, I like what I did with it. And I feel like I've reached my ceiling on it. So I kind of just wanted to switch it up. But the podcast is out there now. It's always gonna be out there. It's two whole seasons. Focusing on black mental health. The first season is very much interviewing people where they share their narratives about mental health to kind of like normalize like, it's different for everyone. This person's depression is different. And on the second season, just like bite sized episodes on like, Hey, are you ready for change or not? If you're not, it's cool show.

  KC Davis 51:17

  And we'll put all of those in the show notes. So thank you again and everybody out there. I hope you have a good day. Be a little gentle with yourself today. And try not to be too distressed about being distressed with you.

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai

This is the show that will make you take a closer look at how the work is shared in your household. The problem cannot be solved by simply handing out to-do lists. I’m joined by Eve Rodsky, who is working to change society one partnership at a time by promoting a new 21st-century solution to an age-old problem. Still today, women shoulder two-thirds or more of the unpaid domestic work and child care for their homes and families, and this burden is taking its toll! Again, there are deeper issues to consider. Let’s talk about this topic with Eve!

Show Highlights:

●      How Eve came to write her book, Fair Play

●      How many wives/moms have an automatically assigned role in their homes

●      How the shift in marriage occurs where women do most of the “invisible work”

●      How Eve’s book is structured with information and practical ways to divide labor

●      How a story about the Tooth Fairy illustrates the mindset shifts that need to happen in both partners to have fair play

●      Why couples get into a measuring contest about whose job is harder

●      Why we need to break down harmful norms that hurt us all and be clear about each partner’s role

●      Is your home infested by RATs? (randomly assigned tasks)

●      Why accountability and trust are vital in home organization

●      Why the mental load is more taxing in most cases than the actual execution of tasks

●      How to view boundaries with a fresh and freeing perspective and find your “unicorn space”

Resources and Links:

Connect with Eve Rodsky: Website, Instagram (Fair Play Life), Instagram (Eve), and TikTok

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello you sentient balls of stardust, welcome to struggle care, the podcast about self care. And other things. I don't have a tagline yet. So I just wing it. And I didn't even think of one today, you'll have to excuse my frog voice. I'm under the house of perpetual Blegh. So but I didn't want to miss this recording at all. I'm here today with Eve rod ski. So Eve broadsky is working to change society one partnership at a time by coming up with a new 21st century solution to an old age problem that women shoulder two thirds or more of the unpaid domestic work and child care for their homes and families Eve broadsky. It's a pleasure.

  Eve 0:41

  Oh my god, I'm so happy to be here. You know, I think I was saying to you earlier before we started that, I do feel like we're friends already. Even though I can't believe this is really our first time. Really communing in person.

  KC Davis 0:55

  Yes. I feel that way too. I love that we have matching glasses.

  Eve 1:00

  Yes, we're matching glasses. Our hairs were I don't know, we have the same vibe going on today.

  KC Davis 1:06

  And I love it. It I feel like it's taken us like four different scheduling to actually get this recording done. But let me just tell you how this has been the least stressful process ever. Because there's various reasons why, like, you've had to change the time, and I've had to change the time. And typically speaking, I feel so much stress over that. Because I feel like there's this idea of professionalism, that's like, Oh, if you cancel something, or if you're late to something, but like, I've just had real life happen so many times this month, my kids, you know, are my husband, my family getting sick getting this. And it was actually really like a relief to feel like, you know what, it's gonna be okay with that. Like, she also has a life. And we're like, being vulnerable, authentic women who understand that, like life happens, and we'll get it done one way or the other

  Eve 2:00

  100%. And again, whether it was like my microphone was shut off, and I didn't know how to like do tech or childcare issues. I think, to me, this is a new way of working. And of course, that doesn't mean you don't you flake on people. But I think he's what you're saying. It's just this new way of being, which I think is hopefully came in with the pandemic. And that's one thing, hopefully a silver lining, we won't lose, which is this idea that it's really okay to be an authentic human. And I know that that is the beauty of your work. But I think that's where our work intersects, hopefully.

  KC Davis 2:36

  Yeah, it very much felt like the idea of professionalism was written by men who have a spouse at home handling everything. So you know, you show up and you don't reschedule and you don't do this. Yeah, yeah, it's the

  Eve 2:49

  we're the BBC dad. Yeah, we're literally a toddler is like coming into the frame. And you're like, taking a stick your giant hand and like smashing their face to get out of your frame. I'm hoping that that's not where we end up, or we don't go back to that's, again, to me, Where, where are the pandemic? I do think has been helpful for women. I think, you know, we don't give a fuck anymore. Are they? That's how I feel, right? I mean, the world is burning around us, we are drowning. And you know, we got to breathe that polluted air, even though it's burning, even though the air is full of smoke, Casey. And I think that's really where our again, our work intersects fair plays about the fact that yes, I wrote it to women 100%, not blaming you, for what happens to us in that society doesn't value our time, and that we hold all the unpaid labor for our homes on average. But I'm telling you that there's a way forward. And it doesn't mean I'm not fighting for you on universal childcare, and paid leave and other things that would make the world less burning or less drowning. But you still got to breathe, even though the air is so polluted.

  KC Davis 3:54

  Yeah, we got to figure out a way to wake up tomorrow and function. So let's get right into it. Okay, so fair play. So I get questions a lot on my various social media platforms about, you know, what do I do about the division of labor in my home? You know, I'm really, you know, looking at this morally neutral, I want to take all your tasks, but you know, my husband's not really on board, and how do we begin to have a conversation? And I've got to tell you, I had one idea about this topic that I put in my book, which is that instead of trying to make the work equal, you should aim for the rest. To be fair, yes, because I felt like that hit better on the time autonomy. And but besides that, I have no motivation to think more about it, because I truly believe that the book you have written is exactly the right book. Thank you. And so I just tell people to go read it.

  Eve 4:46

  Oh, I feel the same about yours. Again, it's so overlapping in its philosophy. And I think that that's a good thing, right? The philosophy is a philosophy of ownership, right? It's a full Philosophy of grace. And really, you know, just for your listeners who don't know me, I'll just give them you know, the two seconds of saying, you know, I didn't set out to be an expert on the gender division of labor, just how I know you weren't in your third grade. What do you want to be when you grew up born Casey and say, like, I'm going to write a book about how to keep house while we're all drowning, but life intersects. And for me, you know, I was one of the resolutely Gen X people that had so many dreams, like when I went to law school, and that's the way I look at the world. Why I think our philosophy intersects is because I'm not my cousins out there. The people who implement fairplay the most amazing humans are coaches and therapists. What I am is I look at myself as a behavior designer. I'm a lawyer, I look at governance, I work in family systems. And so I'm always looking at, well, if you want people to stop at a stop sign, what you do is you pass a law to tell them to stop at a stop sign, right? So I'm looking at things from a more holistic level of design, right how to incentivize behavior. And my career as a lawyer has been around organizational management, how to incentivize good decision making, but it was never around gender division of labor. But what happened to me was my own life intervenes, I loved my job. I wasn't the president and the Senator and the next city dancer, that I told myself, I was going to be in law school, I had big dreams. And the truth is Casey, like I thought, I'd be smashing all these glass ceilings. And really the only thing I was smashing 13 years later, after my Harvard Law experience, and I say that not just to drop that I went to Harvard, but I worked really damn hard. And it's so many loans to escape my working class background. And I was told that was going to be enough. But really, 13 years later, after I got that Harvard Law degree, the only thing I could tell you I was smashing was like, peace, the peace for a toddler. While you know, struggling to breastfeed a baby Ben, while my workplace, I wasn't president, but I did have a job I liked around these legal governance issues for family foundations and family businesses at a big bank. And that company was telling me that my lactation space when I got back from Ben was going to be a broom closet. And that that my direct reports were being taken away from me because they wanted to, quote unquote, make my job easier. And I was being paid less than my male colleagues. And all these things were happening around me. And I was feeling so abandoned emotionally, by my workplace in my career. And then the straw that broke the camel's back was the abandonment from my partner, it was Seth. And there's many stories I tell in fair play. But one of the earliest stories was Seth sending me a text that said, I'm surprised you didn't get blueberries. And what that meant to me that day around having a breast pump in a diaper bag in the passenger seat of my car, and gifts to return for newborn baby in the backseat of my car, and getting the emails from my workplace that I was going to have to pump in a breast in a broom closet. And then my partner, really assuming Casey that I was going to be the fulfiller of his smoothie needs, the assumptions in our house had gotten so bad. And I know as a kid, we learned that if you assume it makes an asset of you and me, but the assumptions based on my gender, about the fact that I made less money than then Seth, even though I'm way more educated. And I think I actually have a more important job. But the assumptions around what I was supposed to do in the home, it was so different than the partnership we had set up. And I was also being so abandoned from my workplace at the same time, that what ended up happening was the final straw that broke the camel's back, the final straw that broke the camel's back was because we don't have a social safety net in this country. And we're dealing with again, no paid leave, people go back to work. After two weeks, we're dealing with income inequality so bad that even two incomes can't make mortgages anymore. What was happening to me was that I was sold a lie that because we didn't have universal childcare, and paid leave that my community would be my answer that once my kids got into school, if everything would go away, your life would be easy. You get your routine back, the community around your school would be the most important people you'll ever know. And I believe that and I remember right after the blueberries, texts, and my job falling apart, I went to Zach, my older son, who was three at the time to his toddler transition program, breakfast. I remember sitting there with all these other moms and a couple of gay fathers doing pattycake with our toddlers, our three year olds, and the preschool teacher reinforcing this notion that these are the people who are going to save me from drowning. And then I looked down after she said, these are the people that are going to know you better than anyone's ever known you. And I looked down at my nametag Casey and it said it said Zach's mom. And that's when I realized you know, these are the people that are gonna know me better than anyone's ever known me. They don't even know my fucking name. And that's when I realized that I was in this like literal hellscape of sort of overweight Elementary sure at the same time.

  KC Davis 10:02

  And let me ask you this. First of all, I love the blueberry story that you tell, and you told it here. But this picture of, you know, you're dealing with these outside stressors, you're sitting in the car, you're pumping breast milk, you've got gifts in the back, you have this whole list in your head of the sort of invisible labor of the home that needs to get done. And the text that comes through is not even, why didn't you get blueberries, but I'm surprised you didn't get blueberries. And I think that is such a picture of how many moms and wives feel like we have this automatically assigned role in our homes. And I don't know about you, but I feel like for me, it that didn't come quite clear in my vision until after children. It's like before children, and I'm an elder millennial, right. And so I'm married to an elder millennial. And so I feel like our generation of men are Yeah, of course, I'm a feminist. Yes, I want, you know, to have an equal egalitarian role. Yes, of course, I ascribe to these things. And yet, if you're not explicit, I found that after the birth of children, everything started to shift. And I remember the first conversation about the first time I saw this shift, and I pointed out to my husband, and literally, our baby must have been weeks old baby a couple of months. And I said, Can I tell you something that I've noticed? And he said, Yeah, and I said, I've noticed that every time you take the baby, I use that time to either meet my basic needs, or take care of the house. So I use that time to go shower, I use that time to shove some food in my mouth, I use that time to do the laundry, or the dishes, or the grocery shopping. And every time that I take the baby, you use that time to recreate. So you get to watch TV, you got to play video games, you get to do your thing. And it wasn't either of us having like deciding to do that it wasn't him deciding that my time is valuable. Like, it was just this weird, unwritten script that we took on, you know, we could talk forever about all of the cool other so many cool things in your book, and I want to get into it. But one of the things that I really want to talk about is that I feel like when we talk about a woman who is overburdened with the home labor, and their partner who is not pulling their weight, we often picture someone who's like a deadbeat dad, or a husband that doesn't love their family or appreciate their family, or someone who's a misogynist, or someone who, you know, just isn't a good guy. And I'm actually and yes, those guys are out there. And those guys do behave like this. But what I think is more fascinating. In the hundreds of women that I've now talked to, is it's the good men. It's the good men who participate in this shift and don't see it happening.

  Eve 13:01

  100% Well, it is and that is why fairplay became a love letter to men, because what I started to do in my own marriage was trying to unpack what was happening to us. And what I found out Casey is that this has a name right there. It's been called the second shift emotional labor, the mental load. But my favorite term was a term called Invisible work. And because a we also knew around that term, that work gets more invisible for women as they have kids, men do five to 15 hours a week less. And one study, right? So this is not about an individual men, we love you. We're not here to bash on a gender. This is called the gender division of labor for a reason, because this is a systemic issue that helps nobody. And the reason why it doesn't help anybody is because I started to ask around the time that I heard the term invisible work when I was going through this myself and starting to feel really, like you said what happened your own marriage, this shift happening of assumptions. I started to you know, basically ask women you know what's invisible. That takes more than two minutes of your time and I started to write it down in this giant spreadsheet. And actually, Casey that was the first time in my life since having kids I didn't feel alone. It wasn't my partner that got me out of that it wasn't my community. With my Zach's mom nametag it wasn't my workplace. It was actually the mother's like you because this is before I had your book or anything could go viral. There was no tic tac there was just sort of word of mouth You know, it was I had Zach in 2008 when like how do you expect when you're expecting or whatever that book is was like the only resource we had we didn't even have iPads back then. And so this should I do spreadsheet that was created over nine months was really this antidote to my loneliness and it became this giant exercise around the country of women I didn't even know contributing it to it saying like thank you for putting making school lunches that takes five minutes or taking the kids to the doctor cuz I'm always the one who has to do that. That takes an hour, but you don't have elf on the shelf and on here you You've like that's, you know, 20 Nights time is an hour. And what about sunscreen? You know, like, what about sunscreen?

  KC Davis 15:11

  And that I have to tell you Eve, that is the thing I love the most about like your list. So and if people don't know, you also have a deck of cards so that because fairplay the first half,

  Eve 15:21

  it became a deck of cards. Yes, it became a metaphor, but it started as a list.

  KC Davis 15:25

  Yes, the first half of the book is this incredible unpacking about division of labor about this shift about how we got here about the myths that we believe about our times as men and women. But the second half of the book is a down and dirty, practical and you call it a game, like let's play the game of how to design your division of labor. And the thing I love the most is that yes, on the cards you have, you know, who's taking out the trash and who's cleaning and who's making dinner. But the things that I feel like overburdened women the most are the literal invisible, like Christmas magic, who is stuffing stocks. And those are always the TIC TOCs that I see is the mom sitting there going, if I don't stuff, the stockings, they don't get done. And every Christmas, there's nothing in my stocking, because I'm the one doing it for everyone else.

  Eve 16:14

  Ah, I love that so much. It reminded me of the kind of tell you a small story that it's not in my book or anywhere. It's sort of a newer story. But I think it sort of brings to home, what we're talking about here, it's a really small story. But again, it's what I love about your book so much too, is that you're also breaking down these assumptions. And you also have practical, prescriptive help. So like you also have that beautiful combination. But I want to tell you the small story because it just reminded me of that, as we talked about how I found out when I finally sent set that should I do spreadsheet, that list alone don't work. And I really had to take a step back and say, Do I live like this? Do I Eat Pray Love it out of my marriage? Because that was a popular narrative back then? Or do I get my ass in gear and become my own client and use what I've known, you know, now, you know, at that time, a decade now 15 years of organizational management, and really put a system into place. So I'll tell you the small story because reminds you, it's the magic stuff we're talking about. And it's so small, but it shows how the shift, pre and post fair play can really work for you. And reminds you a lot of your tick tock videos of just how a mindset shift can be such a difference. So there's this couple I'll call, I think I'll call them Richard and Amy because that's another couple I love. And this couple hasn't given me permission yet to use their story. But they're, you know, they came to fairplay during the pandemic, and they really wanted to do some work on their relationship. And so this couple comes to me. And as you said, part of the beauty of fair play is that I give you a system, it's a game, it's reliant on you understanding that you should have boundaries that your time as you said, you deserve leisure, you deserve a permission to be unavailable. It's the system handed to you on a plate. It's also a lot of communication tips. So this couple is doing fair play. And I love data. So they come to me and they say, Richard decided to take on one of those magic tasks that I really, I do presents for the school. I'm the one who puts notes you know, in my kids lunchbox, whatever. So Amy tells me Richard decides to take on magical beings. So that is Santa. And that's like Lucky leprechaun for them because they have Irish thing. They have a trap or something they were telling me about and then they had Tooth Fairy. So Richard takes on the tooth fairy, and he reports back to me that they do this in advance. That's what fist fair plays about these practice of like exercise, you have high cognition, low emotion conversations, he says I will own that's also fair play ownership. You carry through your mistake. You own it, you don't ask me what's for dinner. If you're in charge of dinner, not hard to understand. That's what we do in the workplace. Even my Aunt Mary's Mahjong group, you're out if you don't bring snack, we're used to owning things. So I bring that to the home. So he basically says the first night, it was his daughter's second tooth. The first night he's Tooth Fairy. He forgets the money doesn't go into the pillow. And his daughter wakes up and she you know, says the Tooth Fairy didn't come super disappointed. Amy tells me before a fair play. This is the dynamic of their relationship. She would have said to Richard, you've ruined our daughter's magic back to the magic. That's why I thought about this. You can't do anything for our house. I will never let you do anything again. You will never touch our living will. Because you can't even get $1 under the pillow. Richard told me that he would have blamed me for not reminding him to put the dollar under the frickin pillow. That's their dynamic post fair play. This is what happens. Richard tells me he opens his mistake. Because he said what my bad. This is totally my card. So that disarms Amy, because now she's feeling like oh shit. You know, he's actually owning something. It wasn't the assumption that I was supposed to remind him. She says, Okay, I will let you carry through your mistake and see what happens. Richard emails tooth fairy@gmail.com, he actually tells me he gets a response. There's somebody who answers that email address, he prints it out for his daughter, because she said something really beautiful, like, Sorry, there were so many teeth lost last night, I couldn't get your home in time. And then he told his daughter, when the tooth fairy is late, she brings double the money. No, I love it. That's the story. It's nothing big. It's nothing dramatic. It's just a shift in the mindset very similar, again, to how I love your work. Because it's not that hard. It feels so hard, because there's so much that we have to unpack around why we got here, it's not your fault. But when you can start to move and invest in these types of conversations in these types of systems and believing in your own boundaries, then things start to change.

  KC Davis 20:54

  I love when you talk about these time myths. And I love that you specifically talk to the stay at home parent, which is usually the woman because that's one of the questions that I get is, or one of the comments that I get is, I feel like because I'm a stay at home parent, I don't have the right to ask for more, or I don't have the right to demand time to myself that I have the easier gig, right. And that's where we kind of get into this measuring contest of whose job is harder. And in reality, whose job is harder, is a totally unrelated conversation. Because if you have children, they belong to both of you. And that has nothing to do with whose job is harder. If you have a home that belongs to both of you, that has nothing to do with whose job is harder. And that the time you spend. Taking care of your family taking care of your home is just as valuable as the time your spouse spends earning his paycheck, and that you both deserve the right to rest and recreate. And I think the other thing that's that's really powerful about fairplay is that as you're kind of in the midst of learning about oh, yeah, you know, it's that, you know, the division is unfair, and we should be able to make it fair. And it seems like that's all it is. Because I've heard women say, it's so much work to get my spouse to be involved, I would rather just do it all. And I could see someone ending there. But the thing that you say that's even more powerful is that you have this whole section where you talk to couples that have divorced after a long marriage. And you have this finding. And I wonder if you could talk to us about this about what the men typically tend to say about why they ended that marriage?

  Eve 22:42

  Well, it's such a beautiful question, because it was never like I ended this marriage. And actually women are the ones who initiate divorce over 80% of the time, because they I do think it's a resentful meter 10, you can't take it anymore. But what's interesting is that so many men and this gets back to the love letter to men. It was never that Oh, I hate taking my kids to school. No, it was women told me the overwhelm is too much, it gets too much to the point where they literally wanted burst with anxiety and resentment. But men said to me that for them, it was this quiet death by 1000 cuts of not knowing their role in the home. And I think what's so fascinating about that, again, it's not like, Oh, I didn't want to help. These are good men, this sort of this dynamic. It also happens in LGBTQIA couples that I have broken up to where these assumptions are not just for heteronormative couples, you know, these heteronormative assumptions can really affect us all even single parents, because they're assumed to not be as competent because they have caregiving responsibilities. So we're trying to break down these harmful norms that hurt us all. But I think what's so fascinating is that so many of these men, especially the ones who ended up in second marriages did so much more. I never found a man in a second marriage who did less. And I think it was this understanding that it is really psychologically unsafe to not know your role. And so what I mean by that is we now know in the work context, that context not control is a way to make people feel safe. If you give people context for what you're asking of them, they're more likely to do it. If you just give an order KC, upload this for me. And they don't know why it makes people feel controlled, and that they don't have autonomy over their life. That type of control is what men were reporting to me. We call it nagging, but that's too gendered. So I started to call it the rat. If your home was infested by rats, you're not gonna want to live there. And that was a random assignment of a task. And as because ultimately, what I found was that in most homes, women were the ones and that's why, you know, treating our home as our most important organization was my most important realization. But my second most important realization, Casey was that I had to ask a deeper question to get to what we're talking about. Now, why was this all happening to us? And once I could ask the question, how does mustard go in your refrigerator, everything changed for me in 2011, because I asked that for over a decade and what happened in 17 countries, even the Nordic countries that have paid leave, and all the other, you know, bells and whistles that we need here. What was happening to women partnered with men was that overwhelmingly, I'd say 80 90% of the time, women were saying to me that they were the ones mustard is in the refrigerator, because their second son Johnny likes yellow mustard with his protein, otherwise he chokes, they were the one noticing, conceiving of that mustard, they were the one telling me that they were getting stakeholder buy in for what their family needed on the grocery list. And they were the one monitoring the mustard for when it was running low. That's planning. And then they were telling me that their partner participates in the grocery shopping by going to the store for the mustard, but they bring home spices Dijon every fucking time. And so if you want me to trust my partner with, again, with my living will with my organ donation card with my DMV registration, absolutely not because this person can't even bring home the right type of mustard. Once I realized that that was a dialogue happening, I realized we can isolate the two words that make organizations function that we were losing in the home. And those two words that every healthy organization needs, our accountability and trust. When you start losing accountability and trust, everything falls to shit in every organization. And that dynamic of holding the conception and planning and having somebody else execute on your behalf is where this accountability and trust break down what's happening. So fairplay is all about rectifying that

  KC Davis 26:34

  that's where everything gets screwed up. Because good men will say, tell me what to do. Good men will say make me a list. Good men will say, What can I take off your plate? But even if you are going to the store to get mustard for me, first of all, many of us can so I can order that and have it delivered. Right? Like the execution is not actually the major part of the burden on me as a wife and mother. It's the other it's the mental load of who likes the mustard monitoring the mustard? When does the mustard get low? Is it one brand over the other that they tend to notice? At what point did they stop liking mustard and start liking something else. And I think the beauty of fair play is that it makes those things visible, and then ensures that whoever is owning the execution of that task is now owning the mental labor of it. So if dad gets the, you know, grocery store task, the conversation and what you learned through reading the book is that he now must also own the mental labor of that task, who likes what food, what food is low, what food needs to go out what food needs to come in, you know, what is being cooked for dinner this week, so that it is on the whatever. And that to me is what makes your book and system so different than any other thing I've seen out there. Because it doesn't help me to make a list. Now I'm just your manager. And I think what we see or what I've seen as a therapist in couples is that they come in as equal partners, they come in typically even as the man pursuing the woman, and then they become equal partners. And they both have careers. And then they have children. And then what happens is this slow shift, whereby the woman takes on more and more and more of this mental labor, she becomes more and more frustrated at her husband. And anytime he tries to insert himself, he's he doesn't see enough of the picture to actually be helpful. So you know, at best, he does nothing at worst, he makes it harder. And then she gets frustrated and sort of nag them down and talks him down. And now she's saying you didn't do this. And you did. And they begin to shift into this Mother Son dynamic. And he resents her for it, and she resents him for it. And then at the end of their marriage, right, when they're trying to figure out what went wrong. The most powerful thing your book said to me was the amount of men that said, When I married my wife, she was so interesting. And then I begged her to quit her job and be a stay at home mother. And here we are 25 years later. And you know, she's just not interesting anymore. So I left her. And it's like, these men aren't realizing that they participated in the assassination of their wife's spark, and personality and passion. And I'm not saying it's all their fault, because as women, you know, we don't even know what to do to get out of this. Or some of us even think, oh, there's some reward in this role. I'm doing my great little duty as a wife not realizing how much it shifts, not realizing how much I begin to martyr myself for the role of mother and I don't have time to be interesting anymore. And one of the things about my book and my work is that it yes, it's about dishes and laundry, but at the end of the day, it's really only about this more powerful message of worthiness that says you deserve to function. And I feel like fair play. Yes, it's about who's taking out the trash and who's doing the dishes. But actually, it's about a more fundamental message of worthiness, which is that you deserve to reclaim the right to be interesting.

  Eve 30:18

  Wow, can I take you on the road with me? Like, you're just Yes, please do whatever you just said to can you do that? Yes, you need to be my Tiktok representative, because that was so beautiful, because it is exactly that. We talked about systems, we really spent the majority of this podcast really breaking down the fairplay system. And we talked when we talked about Richard and Amy about sort of how they started to communicate. But I think if we could end on boundaries, what you just said, You gave me chills sort of repeating back, because this stuff still triggers me so much. It's so sad, right? But it's also so empowering. Because, Casey, I wish I could tell your listeners that. And again, whatever family structure you're in, it's valid. And I'm speaking to all the stay at home parents who, you know, the core premise of fair play, as Casey said earlier, is that an hour holding a child's hand at the pediatricians office is just as important and valuable as an hour in the boardroom. But I think, you know, when you get down to this idea of what a boundary is, that's the unlearning for why the system was so hard to introduce the society people were saying to me, I can't even get to the fairplay system, I can't get to fairness, this makes so much sense. But because I am being held back by my own assumptions about how I'm supposed to use my time, my time is predetermined for me. My time is, as a parent, a partner or a professional, God forbid, I use my time outside of those roles, I am not allowed. And when I say who's not allowing you who's not giving you permission, right? It's this overwhelming societal idea that women are really not allowed to be anything outside of those roles, we don't availability to those roles becomes part of our identity. And so like I said, if I could tell you anything about boundaries, it is one thing. A boundary is not a walk around the block. A boundary is not a drink with a friend. A boundary is your consistent interest in your own life. That's the boundary when you can take your reclaim your time and say, That's why the fair play, and KeePass, wide drowning, like that's why all of these messages are important, because it gives you some time back to think about how to reclaim but once you reclaim that time, it is not to fill it with more work, or to fill it with mommy juice or to numb your way through your life, like so many of us are told to do and we normalize it is to be consistently interested in your own life. And we're here for you those active pursuits, I call them unicorn space, because they're mythical. They're magical. They're the tie and the key to your mental health and your longevity. But they don't exist, like a unicorn does not exist until we reclaim that space.

  KC Davis 33:07

  Well, I have to tell you, one of my best friends is a marriage and family therapist. And she and her partner specialize in helping couples, and they're also sex therapists. And one of the things that they taught me about sort of their work, which is really pretty countercultural to her a lot, a lot of family and sex therapy do now. And she was telling me, you know, the common thing for marriage and sex therapist to do now when a couple comes in, and they're saying, Oh, we, you know, he wants it more, you know, we want more passionate in the marriage is they try to push them more together and say, Oh, make date nights. Ooh, schedule your sex. Oh, you know, you need to do this. This isn't the other. Oh, no, exactly. No, no. And she and her partner has those the most life changing view on it. And she said, the thing is, is that duty and eroticism can't live in the same place. And attraction is not something that you can turn on by spending more time with someone. Attraction is something that happens because you see someone as different and other than you, and you see them in their passionate place. You see them in their unicorn space. And they talk about how when you ask a man, you know what attracted you to your partner, when you first met, they're describing I remember seeing her give that performance. I remember watching her to date, talk about rescuing dogs, and how her face would light up. And she said, You know, there's these things that attracted us to each other that made us sort of an all of this person in front of us and sometimes what happens as we get married as we have kids as we get these careers as we're sort of trudging along, creating a life together, we'd become companions, but we can get so bogged down and she was saying this is kind of where it hits women, right? Like all of a sudden, every waking minute for me is childcare and home stuff and my career in childcare and home stuff in my career. And people want to make this superficial sort of, well, you know, you don't ever put makeup on anymore, it's like, that's not really what it is, it's that she does not have the time or the space to be an interesting person anymore to go home. And it doesn't have to be some world changing pursuit. But I love the stories in your book about, you know, one of them was that it was like, crochet, like, that was what she loved. And when she got the time and energy to do that, again, her husband's talking about van just to see her create these things, and then she connected with other women about and then she started going to these little fairs about it. And, you know, so they, when they started talking to me about we don't actually want to push couples closer together on, you know, scheduled date nights, we want to talk about how can we get this woman the time and energy to go be passionate person, because when their spouse can observe them be a passionate person, they can discover that attraction that's always been there. And vice versa for the man too, because sometimes men can get so you know, nose to the grindstone on I've got to make the money, I've got to make the money, I've got to climb the ladder, I've got to do my duty, that they won't let themselves to have space to go and do and say and be. And I remember reading your book and thinking this is exactly what they're talking about.

  Eve 36:21

  Oh my god, I love them. I love them. Please tell them that they're literally they're the best. That's exactly right.

  KC Davis 36:27

  Well, I have to tell you that your book changed my life. Thank you. And that's no small thing. I was in the middle of paying the pandemic. And I was buried and I am a upper middle class woman, I have the funds to outsource a great deal of care tasks. But in the pandemic, it was not safe to do so. And my husband had just started his first corporate law job. And so he was working seven days a week, and I was at home with a newborn and a toddler. And I was losing myself. And I was drowning silently. And I didn't even realize how much pain I was in. And when I started my Tiktok channel and it started to take off. You know, it gave me this little line of meaning and interest. And I still remember like I went to see my mom, I had seen a therapist actually because I was losing my mind I got to the point where I went to the water burger. I just walked out the house I said you have the kids are watching the house. I'm sitting in the drive thru line. And as I'm waiting in the drive thru line, all of a sudden, I start to panic. And the only thing that goes through my head is get out of the car and leave get out of the car and leave get out of the car and leave. I'm telling you I was on the precipice of psychosis, like I, all I wanted to do, and I had on like pajamas was get out of my moving car, leave it in the drive thru lane and just walk into the night, I had nowhere to go. But it was like that's the only thing left. And I called a friend. And I told her about it. And I said, Something's wrong. I started seeing a therapist, that therapist said you have to get away for a week, and I don't care what it takes. And I went to my mother's house. And I told her about this little tic tock channel that I had. And I was thinking about paying someone to make me a logo, but it was $300. And I just really didn't know if I could afford that. And, and you know, maybe my partner would be mad at me for spending $300 on this little hobby. And I remember my mom looking at it being like, I think you really have something here. And that was the process that I was in when I read fairplay and read about reclaiming the right to be interesting, and realized that I had lost a part of myself that I missed. And it was the part of myself that I was afraid if I lost it, I would lose my whole family, eventually, that this would bury me. And that's when I started taking my own unicorn space seriously. And it was really difficult. And I'm still in that process. But I'm just so grateful for your book, I'm grateful for your presence. I'm grateful that you didn't just to make it about equal division of labor. I'm grateful that you took that step and said, This is a systemic issue that will bury you and you deserve better. And I'm just so grateful that you gave us this Oh,

  Eve 39:08

  my God, then like I'm crying. I'm just like, such a beautiful story. And like I said, I feel so similar. And I think the reason why I was attracted to you, your work is because you are a walking unicorn space. And I'm here to tell you and to all your listeners, whether you make $0 from what you're doing, or a billion dollars from what you're doing, your work is as or more valuable than your partner's work. Because you are also changing lives. And I think there's three things that I see in your work. And you when I watch you on tick tock and you make me happy and normalize everything, always at the right time. The thing I want to end with I think that's so important is what I see in you what you're doing and how as a role model because again, let's just put the money aside Of course, we all need it. But that is not a unicorn space, it is not a side hustle, it is not a way to get rich. It is not contributing to the patriarchal capitalist narrative that time equals money. It is looking at how mental health needs to be redefined. And what I can say I think that you would agree with me and it's I put this in my second book, find your unicorn space. But it's just as relevant for fairplay is that for too long, we've been fed this narrative that we can gratitude journal ourselves to death. And as you said, this is a systemic problem, we cannot gratitude journal ourselves to death. Instead, what we have to realize is that the true definition of mental health is not how to be happy. And I feel like in the same 10 years of boss bitch, we had the same 10 years of how to be happy books. The true definition of mental health is a version of having the appropriate emotion at the appropriate time. And here's wait for it. This is the kicker, and the ability and strength to weather

  KC Davis 41:03

  how to hold on to yourself in the face of those emotions.

  Eve 41:06

  You and I had the appropriate emotion at the appropriate time, you were in a fucking takeout line. I was on the side of a road raging and throwing shit over blueberries. But the ability to you and I what we have now that we didn't have then is we have the ability and strength to weather the mundane does not mean life is easy. We which is what the global pandemic, we see things happening all over that are hard. But what we can say is that the unicorn space is your umbrella, when you have experiences that give you happiness and meaning together, not happiness without meaning not the binge watching the Netflix and again, the edibles and the wine, that sort of we've gotten through to numb ourselves and not the meaning without happiness, which is raising kids. But really these happiness and meaning bursts. What you're doing here, you have curiosity, you brought me out, I wonder what he was gonna say maybe it's good, maybe it's not, you connect, you had the we have the ability to connect with each other. And then even if you're not happy with what happened today, you're still willing to edit it and upload it to complete something. This podcast, your book is a cycle of curiosity, connection and completion. That is meaningless and happiness together. That is what we need to weather, the shit storms of the mundane of what it feels like to be a parent. And to be a caregiver, even if you're not a parent, or to be a single parent or to be somebody in charge of your aging and ailing uncle, we're here to say that you still deserve to be interested in your own life. And so I think that's again, where our work intersects. And it's different. It is different than other messages out there. Because it's a practice, like exercise. And we're not giving people a quick fix. We're saying this is a lifelong practice. And that's harder.

  KC Davis 42:55

  I love it. Well, thank you so much. Even and if you're listening, check out fairplay you have an audio book as well.

  Eve 43:00

  Yes, it's fun to listen on audio, especially if you're busy. But I would say that, you know, not everybody can afford all resources. Even today's we said that logo was expensive. So there we have a lot of free resources if you want to sign up for our newsletter at Fair Play life. Also, we have the cards again, all free resources in the Fair Play Life website.

  KC Davis 43:18

  Awesome. And if people want to follow you or learn more about you, where can they do that?

  Eve 43:23

  Also, all things fair play or fair play life. If you want a more raging political version, then you can always follow my personal account, which is just a Brodsky.

  KC Davis 43:33

  I love it. Well, thank you so much. And if you're listening here today, we're glad you're here and we just want you right now to know no matter what stage of life you're in, what family makeup you have, that you do have the right to be interesting, and to have the spaces in your life where meaning and happiness overlap and it doesn't matter what came before or after. You can absolutely start that journey today. So thank you for listening and II. Thank you for being here.

  Eve 44:01

  Love you, KC. I want to do this again.

  Unknown Speaker 44:03

  Absolutely.

We focus a lot on this show about survival skills regarding your life and your home. When we struggle–and our mental health is at stake–we have to let go of lofty ideals and just do the basic tasks we need to survive. Even though interior design is not normally classified as a survival skill, as today’s guest says, “We all deserve beauty.” It’s true. We do. I’m joined by Katie Soro, a vintage dealer and artist who decided to start a new kind of interior design to fuel her passion for vintage and helping people find, curate, see, and experience beauty. Let’s dive deeper into this important topic.

 Show Highlights:

 ●      Why function AND beauty can coexist—and you deserve them both in your home

●      The first step in decorating your home: Don’t think about what others will say; there is NO wrong way to do it.

●      How a lifeless, inanimate thing can be beautiful and bring creativity to your home

●      How thrifting and antiquing allow you to curate your own style that speaks to you

●      Why beauty in interior design comes from the feelings we get from beautiful things

●      Katie’s practical tips for home design: (Keep in mind that there is NO right way to do it.)

●      Start with a room by considering the mood and function you want in that room.

●      Use lighting to set the mood and be functional for tasks.

●      Use wall art, and remember that it doesn’t have to cost a fortune.

●      Katie’s tips for finding design inspiration: Think outside the box, use Pinterest, don’t be afraid to try and fail more than once, and start thrifting to find unique pieces that speak to you.

 Resources and Links:

Connect with Katie Saro: Website, Instagram, The Art of Vintage TV Show (Magnolia Network and Discovery+)

Mentioned in this episode: www.shopgoodwill.com

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello you sentient balls of stardust, welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, Casey Davis. And today we're going to talk about interior design. I have interior designer Katie Saro on the line with me, she actually sent me an email about resonating a lot with the morally neutral aspect of my platform. And I'm so excited Katie to talk about interior design being morally neutral, because I feel like a lot of what I talk about is sort of like survival skills for people like, you know, okay, it's hard to eat. So here's just how you get food in your body and like, it's hard to clean. So here's how you just get basic functioning. And one of the things that I say a lot is like you deserve to function. And what really caught my eye about the email you sent me was when you said, you also deserve beauty.

  Katie Saro 0:51

  Yes, and I, I've read your book, and I've listened to the podcast, and I'm nodding my head with everything that everybody says like, Yes, this is so great. And then at the end, I think, Wait, but what about beauty like these people that are struggling, who are underwater, who are trying to make their home functional and safe, and life enhancing, we're forgetting about beauty and that they also deserve beauty in their home and in their life. And I don't think that the interior design world ever has that message in it, at least I don't see it, not in social media, not in magazines, not in books, it's always about here are the shoulds like you should do this, you should have this, this is the rule for how to create a room. And what I've been trying to do is take your principles, and then find what the metaphor is in interior design. And it's been resonating with so many people. And I came up with just saying that your home design is morally neutral. There's no one design that makes a house look put together. There's no one design that says okay, this is the way your home should look like. So when people come over, they know that you have your crap together, because your own looks like this. You know, I saw one was a tic tac that you did, where you turned your chairs around to look outside, right. And maybe you can explain what that was.

  KC Davis 2:25

  Yeah, I had. So my bedroom in my new house is pretty large. And there's this like bay window on one side. And the way the room is sort of structured, it was obvious that that was supposed to be like a seating area. So at first I put it's like a curved bay window, right. So at first I put the chairs with their backs to the window, like facing in like it was like a conversation area. And it looks really nice. But like a few days went by. And what I ended up doing was like, I wanted to look out the window and like drink my coffee, cuz I have a really pretty backyard. So I turned one of them around. And there was this sense of like, okay, no, they shouldn't really go this way. And then I was like, Well, who cares? Like, I want to be able to like sit here and look out the window. So then I turned the both the opposite way. But then I still wasn't like close enough to the window. So I was like bringing them closer and closer and closer until they were literally like you could rest your feet on the windowsill. Right. And I was like, I am aware that this doesn't quote unquote, look right. But this is the way I want to use my space.

  Katie Saro 3:25

  Yes. And I love that because one of your prongs and tell me if I'm saying it wrong, is that a home should function in the way that you use it. And it should serve you use. It's not like you have a moral obligation to make your home look one way or the other. But when I saw that post, and you said, I know that this doesn't look right. But this is how it functions. And I'm going to do it this way. And what I thought as an interior designer watching it is I don't think that one way looks right or the other. I don't think that it looked better for the chairs to be facing the other way it might have been if it were an Instagram photo and you were taking a photo of the space and you wanted to show off the chairs, then that's what an interior designer would do. But I don't think that there was one way that you're supposed to put chairs like I would argue with you that the chair is facing one way or another is not an element of interior design.

  KC Davis 4:21

  Well, that's an interesting comment too, because I feel like so much of the information that I get about interior design are like the quote unquote rules of interior design.

  Katie Saro 4:30

  Yeah. And I saw that and I thought, oh, no, I would put them that way too. It's totally fine and totally correct. It's not throwing away design in order for your home to function. It's just that functionality and design should work together. Right? If we're saying shoulds so that's what caught my eye was that was the first spark that made me think okay, well, what does it mean for a home design to be both functional and beautiful?

  KC Davis 4:58

  Well, I love the idea like, you deserve beauty because I feel like for a lot of us, we feel like design and aesthetics and pretty much like we do so much work unpacking, like, Hey, that's not the most important thing, especially when we're doing it from a sense of like, I need to look like I'm put together I need to look quote unquote, right. And so we sort of put that aside, and then you just go for function. But I also think that there's this other like equally damaging belief that design and beauty like that, I'm not allowed to do that until I get basic functioning down, like until I can clean well and eat well. And rest well and exercise like until like, I just need to stay here in my basic white walls, because I can't even get out of bed. You know what I mean? Like, I have to get good at functioning before I can move on to like the extra,

  Katie Saro 5:49

  Exactly an episode, I have a TV show called The Art of vintage. And an episode of the show was a family that had three sets of twins. And they were both going through grad school, they had actually seven kids, and they wanted me to come into their bedroom and their house was beautiful, and their family was beautiful. And you could tell there was a lot of love in that family. But they're also just kind of drowning underwater for so many years. And finally, she said, I felt like we finally kind of started to tread water. And now we have room for beauty. And I It really blew my mind to think oh, you only have room for beauty when you're not drowning. And that thought was something that needs to change. There's always room for beauty. And the title of the episode is actually beauty is functional, which is kind of turns everything around on its head. Because we think of you know, a couch is functional because you can sit on it. And a table is functional because you can put things on it. But does it have to be beautiful? And I would say no, it doesn't have to be but you deserve beauty and beauty is functional. It enhances your life just as much as having a table to eat on enhances your life. It gets to be beautiful. You deserve to have something beautiful in your home. And it's so hard to convince people of this. Because I think beauty is a loaded term. I think beauty has been overtaken by commercialism. We think of the beauty industry. And there's a lot of negative things to the word beauty. And we think of beauty as something that's expensive that you buy in the store for your home. We think that it's for the rich, or it's for the people who have a nice home or for only people who own homes. If you're an apartment, how can you I'm not gonna make this beautiful. I don't own it.

  KC Davis 7:49

  Or like beauty also for me, it's like beauty is professional.

  Katie Saro 7:52

  Oh, there you go. Yeah, beauty is professional.

  KC Davis 7:54

  You know what I mean? Like, I feel like I would say like, I want this room to be pretty and beautiful. And then I'll like put some things up. I'll be like, it doesn't look right. Yeah. Like, it doesn't look like what I see other people doing and professionals doing and it's like, I don't know how to recreate those looks. But then it's like, I don't even know like, do I want those looks? And am I kind of in a wrong place of like it having to look a certain way. And I also feel like it's also like this big condemnation on like, feeling like a valid adult. Yes. Like there's this real, deeply embedded, I feel like consciousness where it's like, okay, when you have your favorite band poster tacked to your wall with thumbtacks. That's like someone who hasn't grown up yet. You know what I mean? And then it's like, when you're grown up, you have accent walls, and you have framed art. And you have this, that and the other. And I felt like I was like I didn't, I felt all of a sudden, I was a grown up and I was like, I don't know how to move to like, adult beauty now.

  Katie Saro 8:53

  Okay, yes, that makes sense. Or maybe it's because our homes are something that we invite somebody into. So whenever someone comes into our home, what we're thinking is, what are they judging about my home? And how are they judging me by what my home looks like? And it's the same thing for having a messy home or a clean home. But it's true people come into your house, and they probably are judging you and thinking, you know, what, who is this person? Let me look at their home and judge who they are as a person. And that can be so debilitating when we're trying to decorate if we think about it from that perspective. So when you're trying to bring beauty in your home and you're trying to decorate your home, the first step is to not think about what other people do or what other people are going to think about your home.

  KC Davis 9:43

  And even like I always say like there's the invisible audience like I carry an invisible audience with me. Even if no one is physically coming to my house. It's like I have an invisible audience in my head. That's giving me those judgments anyways,

  Katie Saro 9:57

  yes, yes. Oh, I love that. That's a good phrase for an invisible audience. And maybe we don't even know that we're doing that. But it's happening. And when I, if someone's coming to me and saying, I'm not really a decorator, I don't know how to decorate a home, I don't care about that, I just need to hire you to do it for me. And I'd say, the first step is to ignore everything that you've seen and what you think your home should look like. Because beauty isn't something that you buy, or design isn't something you buy. And the first step to designing a home is to forget the idea that there's like a right and proper way to design it. Like it's an art. It's not a science. So I can give you tips. And there are a million tips online of how to create the mood in the home, how to design a bedroom, how to hang curtains, and all those things, you know, might be helpful, but we're looking at it from the wrong way. Because the first idea is that there is no right and proper way to do it. It's about setting the mood for your home in a way that's going to enhance the way that the room and the home works for you. And you can do that through things, right? How do we do that? We do that two things. So there's an element to buying things. But what makes a lifeless thing? Beautiful. Let's start there.

  KC Davis 11:22

  Okay, let me pause. We're gonna hear a word from our sponsor, and then I want to come back and visit that,

  Katie Saro 11:27

  okay.

  KC Davis 11:32

  Okay, so ask that question. Again,

  Katie Saro 11:35

  What makes when you're buying things for your home, they're just things, right? They're lifeless, inanimate things that you buy. But what makes a lifeless inanimate thing, beautiful. I don't even know the answer to that. What I say is what makes a lifeless inanimate thing beautiful, it makes a decoration beautiful is actually humanity, that lifeless thing becomes beautiful when it points to something that's greater than what it is, when it points to something that's bigger than what it is in its own nature. So let me give you an example. You could have tile that has a printed picture of marble on it, right. And it's not real marble, it's just a print of marble on a tile, right? Or you could have a slab of marble. And what I think that makes a slab of marble more beautiful than a print of marble is that it points to something greater than itself, it points to the fact that there was a rock that was under extreme pressure and the extreme pressure that the rock suffered, created all these stray oceans and beauty and differences. And it was that pressure that made it more beautiful. And when you have that in your home, it becomes not just a table or tile, but it becomes like this sense of a gives this sense of wonder where we look at it and think is marble a metaphor for life? Like, how, how did this stripe get here? Why is this marble more highly figured than this other slab of marble? Is it because of all this pressure it went through? Oh my gosh, how old is this marble is this 1000s of years old, millions of years old. So that piece of marble that's just a thing points to something greater than what it is that marble table points to something greater than the fact that it's a table that points to the fact that we live on this earth with all of this wonder and that nature is beautiful, and that suffering brings beauty. And that's what I mean, when I say that a thing is more beautiful when it transcends what it is as an object and points to something that's bigger than itself.

  KC Davis 13:56

  How can I do that with something that's like a more mundane object?

  Katie Saro 14:02

  Yes. So the what I said was that a thing is more beautiful, because of its humanity, and what makes humans humans and not animals. And I would say more than anything creativity, right? Our ability to be creative, is what makes us human. So if you create your own art, like you just paint a painting an abstract painting or anything, you put it on the wall that is more beautiful than a print of art by the store, because it points to who you are. It points to your creativity and what you made. We have this huge painting in our dining room that my kids made. And I just gave them random pieces of objects like a stick and a ball. And I give them a bunch of paint and I just let them throw my canvas, right. And it became this big abstract art piece that cost I don't know $5 certain materials, and it's the focal point of our entire dining room, because it's not just a painting I bought at a store is a painting that points to something that's greater than itself. And what that is, is my family, the memory that we have creating it, the color choices that I made. And that brings me so much joy to see it, even though it's not a beautiful masterpiece, or work of art. And even though it didn't cost any money,

  KC Davis 15:28

  And those things also take time, like so my mom, I just my mom is moving down to the city where I live. And one of the things that's really struck me like so we're unpacking her things. And my mom has a lot of like, decorative items. But as I'm unpacking them, I just keep thinking, like, these items are so beautiful. And I'm remembering like, there's certain items of hers that I will like forever associate with like growing up and seeing that item. And then there's other items that maybe are like newer, but you know, it's like, oh, yeah, that's her like, that is something she would like or this, she bought this on a trip or she want this, I love that. And I said to her, you know, I sometimes beat myself up over, not having what I consider like a completely designed space, because I do want like meaningful objects. But like that takes a lifetime to collect, you know what I mean? And I didn't want to just like go to Pier One or Hobby Lobby and like buy the decorative stuff, so that there was something on the wall. And I told her I said, you know, it's making me feel better about my like, quote, unquote, incomplete house, because I hope one day when I'm your age, I am surrounded by like a way of decorating that has really deep meaning. Like, here's this picture that I brought back from Mexico for her here's this like, you know, cup that I made out of clay when I was four years old. And it was really like kind of a moment of oh, I feel this pressure to be like done and packaged with a bow right now at my age. Yeah, but I also want what you're talking about, which is like things to point to something more than they are.

  Katie Saro 17:03

  Exactly. And you said it takes time. And that doesn't mean that you won't have a decorated home until you're 70 years old. But it does take some consideration. So it doesn't take money. And it doesn't take a designer to make something beautiful. It just takes a little bit of consideration. And I think that sometimes we need to give people permission to take that time to give themselves beauty, because it is life enhancing. And it is important and it matters. And it matters because you matter if that makes sense.

  KC Davis 17:39

  Yeah, one of my favorite things in my house is this vintage lamp that is two Siamese cats. And there's like a little light bulb on the back. And the reason I love it is because it was a gift. First of all, I just like it think it's a really cool piece. It feels kind of one of a kind, even though I know it wasn't at one point, but somebody gave it to me for my birthday. And it was really meaningful that they not only like thought of me, but they like went to a thrift store in search of an item that reminded them of me. And I was like, okay, hold up, this is all I ever want for presents anymore. Like I want me in my friends to like go to thrift stores and look until we find something and it's like, it's always cheaper that way, number one, but also, it felt really cool to be like, Okay, this is so much more of an accessible gift. But also, I love the idea that they like walked around a thrift store until something sort of inspired them some aspect of me

  Katie Saro 18:37

  Exactly. And that's why I always talk about thrifting or antiquing or going to garage sales. Because if you go to a showroom and a furniture store, that store is telling you what your should your house should look like that store is saying this is what a room should look like you this couch should go with this chair. This is what's on trend right now. This is how much it costs and can't should on yourself like that you can't have that idea in your head that it should look like anything. And that's why thrift stores are so great. Because no one at the thrift store is curating a look for you. Right? You are the curator when you go into a thrift store, you are looking at what is around and saying, Oh, that really speaks to me that really speaks to me. And it doesn't go together because the store said that it's in the same line doesn't go together because the store said it's in the correct color scheme. And they can't trick you. Yeah, they can't trick you.

  KC Davis 19:36

  One of my favorite things that I heard an interior designer that I follow online say is like when you see something on a shelf like at Target and you think I love that thing. I have to have that thing. She's like make sure you take that item off of the shelf that's on and go put it on a different shelf and look at it by itself. Yeah, because there's so many times that you're like, you know what I walk into the Joanna Gaines section of target. I'm like I love all of these things. But I've taken I've like, bought something from that section and then taken it home and been like this is just a wire fruit basket. And it's not doing in my home what it was doing in that section because you're right, because they curated the whole space. Exactly designed. And so I kind of felt as though ooh, this one little item is going to carry all of that impact with it when it gets home, as opposed to sort of being enamored with the item itself.

  Katie Saro 20:30

  Exactly. And I think that goes back to, well, you're a therapist, and I learned in therapy, and I hope this is correct, that feelings, your feelings are always valid, but sometimes your thoughts are not, right. So you can say this thought I have is wrong. And I'm going to not think this that anymore. But your feelings are always valid. And when I translate that a home design, I say how a room makes you feel is something that you can make, you can create a room that makes you feel good. If this room doesn't make you feel good, then that's valid. And we can change that. But if you have a thought in your head that says I like this, because I'm supposed to like that maybe question that thought and say wait, is this really my thought? Or did I get this thought from somewhere else? Is this somebody else's thought that was put into my head, and I am a designer? And I do this every day and I still have things put my head in, I have to question myself and say, Wait, do I really like this? Or do I just see it on Instagram all the time? And think that I like it? Because I saw it a lot. So you always have to question those thoughts like, Is this my style? Or is this somebody else's style that I've seen so often that I think it's a good style? But actually I don't really like it?

  KC Davis 21:51

  Yeah. And then maybe also, I find that like the emotional reaction I have to a style sometimes is more about the context that that style was given to me in right. So like it when I see like cottage core tiktoks It's not just a design, you're seeing like, it's very emotional background music, it's some damn lady running barefoot through the woods. Right? And it's like, it conjures this whole, like, Wow, if I had that, I would feel peaceful. Yes. And I feel like that's almost like a little bit of a backwards way. Like, you know, I have to it's the same thing of like taking it off the shelf and looking at it by itself, where it's like, okay, I do want my room to make me feel a certain thing. But it's more helpful for me to start in the room not start with some like very curated piece of something I saw because again, a design in a really well edited tick tock video, or a piece, you know, a spoon holder in the curated Joanna Gaines section of target. Like that's kind of where I get sucked in. Because I'm like, Ooh, this is what I want. I want this feeling. And I take it home. And I'm like, I don't feel like this stupid spoon holder is not making me feel this way. You know? And so I like how you're doing it the opposite. So it's not like I stumble upon something that is evoking an emotion in me. And I'm trying to like copy that emotion there. It's like, okay, here's my living room, like, what do I want to feel in my living room?

  Katie Saro 23:22

  Yeah. How do you set the mood? Because beauty when it comes to home design is not a thing that you buy. It's a feeling. And we create feelings through beautiful things. And what I said was beautiful things are things that point to something greater than itself. Beautiful Things are creative, beautiful things are heirlooms, beautiful things remind us of a person, beautiful things point to something that gives us a sense of wonder. And beautiful things aren't just something that you buy from a curated place. And I can give tips to people of how to set the mood for their home. How to bring in beauty.

  KC Davis 24:05

  Yes, I would love some practical tips for that person, like sitting in their first apartment going. Okay, great guys, like what do I do now? Or maybe that mom that's really stressed out and they're going I really want a beautiful home. But I don't have time for that. I don't have time. Where do I go from there? Yeah, I would love some tips.

  Katie Saro 24:23

  Okay, I will give these tips but with a caveat that the first tip is that forget the idea that there's a right way to do it. And we all have always have to start from that perspective. One is the biggest tip is that you're going to want to set a mood in that particular room. So start with a room and you want to set a mood that you want that room to be. And let's say you're in we'll start with a living room. Right. What I see with a living room is that that's where we do all of our living. There's usually toys on the floor or shoes on the floor or your books on the floor studying and you think, well, this can't be beautiful because we use it every day. But that doesn't mean that it's a perfect showroom, a beautiful room isn't a perfect showroom, a beautiful room is one that feels comfortable and safe and inspiring. So here's a practical tip that I see a lot of people missing is lighting. It's not something that you buy, but you might have just inadequate lighting in your room, you should have should I say should, it's helpful to have a light that's on a table. So a task lighting wherever you sit and read. Of course, every room usually has overhead lighting, and then having little lamps in places to set like conversations. Or let's say you read a book in the corner, and you have a floor lamp there. Or you have sconces over your buffet, or just having lighting in different places, and then having the right type of light bulbs in those lights. So in a living room, I would always recommend warm light, or what's called soft white light. And that small change makes a huge difference in a room, it doesn't take any time at all. And it really makes the room feel more beautiful. Because it points

  KC Davis 26:18

  I did that in this house. And it really did make a huge difference because I don't like overhead bright lights. And so I started sort of collecting lamps like I thrifted some lamps and I there was like a one light from target that I got and little lamps and big lamps and floor lamps. And one of the things that I did that was really helpful is that online, I found these really, really cheap smart plugs. And I plugged all of my lamps into smart plugs so that I can turn them all on and off at the same time with my Alexa because at first I was like walking to each lamp every single time. And I was like this is not functional. But no, it's been amazing how much the lighting changes things,

  Katie Saro 26:59

  I have the low tech version of that, like the Christmas lights that turn on it like they plug into the low tech even cheaper than Alexa. But so at like five o'clock every night, the lights will turn on. And then the winter here, it gets dark before then, and then my kids and the whole family like oh, the lights are on, let's go into this room. And you can kind of create almost a theater in your room, or a theater in your home or like, Oh, this is the set design for after dessert. This is the set that we do in the morning when we play in the playroom upstairs. So yeah, lighting is a big change. That's very easy. And then the walls, the walls, I that couple I talked about that had seven kids with three sets of twins. And were going through grad school and building a home. I walked into their bedroom and it was blank huge white walls everywhere. And if you have a messy house, the mess doesn't get on the walls. That's a that's a greatest thing. So like we have a messy house. And I don't it doesn't bother me to have you know things around. But the walls are always the way that I put them. The walls are always the way that I arranged them with the paintings that I love. And the kids don't throw it away. I don't need to clean it up every night. I don't need to maintain the walls, it's just set the way that I like it. So, you know, some in one of your podcasts, I heard you say that some people say well, I just want like one space that isn't ruined, you know, one space in my house because I don't feel calm unless I have one room that's put together. But that's the beauty of having art on the walls that you've put up is that it never changes. Like you always have that and that's yours. That's the way that you arrange the walls. And that's always beautiful, and no one messes it up. So for me, that's what creates the Calm in the Chaos of our home is that I have these walls that I can look at that are beautiful, and I don't have to look down at the floor, I can just look up at the walls

  KC Davis 29:02

  Well and it's perfect for like parents too, because like I am not at it. My kids are three and five there. I'm not at a place where I can have like a lot of breakable items, or like decorative items like they're gonna get picked up, they're gonna get played with, you know, the dogs gonna run by your end table, whatever. So, let's take a quick break for sponsors and then we'll come back and keep talking about walls because I have more thoughts on walls.

  Katie Saro 29:25

  Okay.

  KC Davis 29:31

  So the other thing I think is really cool about focusing on your walls is that I think that it's a lot more affordable to get meaningful art than it is to get meaningful like, decorative items. Because like I've seen the tiktoks where people you know, they go to the thrift store and buy the $4 painting and then pop out the painting and they have this like incredible frame, right and then they get common What is it like unlicensed art from to download from the and then they go to fedex or Kinkos. And they blow it up big. And it's like, that's cool.

  Katie Saro 30:05

  Yes. And that's it's also like when you say art, you might think that's expensive. But it doesn't have to be it can just be creative, like what you said. And I think that we can go back to what is beautiful art. And it doesn't mean expensive art. It doesn't even have to be a painting, it could be a beautiful quilts that somebody made that you love, and you hang the quilt on the wall, it could be a mural that you painted just a really simple mural, or it could be your kids are in a beautiful frame, it could be a lot of things. But I want to have the caveat there that it's not about filling space on your walls with prints of things that don't mean anything to you, like, all it takes is a little bit of consideration of hey, what painting really made me think like maybe you study the painting in school, or maybe there's a painting that really spoke to you or it created some sense of wonder in you. And it's just a print off the internet, but you put it in a beautiful frame. And that's going to mean a lot more to you than like a print that says you know, live laugh, love, or whatever. And it's filling space on the wall.

  KC Davis 31:09

  And like pictures, I started really focusing on getting, like nice pictures made like the two apps that I use the most is I've used mix tiles, where you can get like, you know, several different ones. And when you get them for anyone who's not familiar, they're not like there's not glass, it's almost like printed on a plastic and then the little plastic frames. So they're really lightweight, and you can move them around. But I was able to get like nine little pictures for like 100 bucks, and they it takes up like a huge portion of my wall. And then I also use an app called keepsake, which is a little more expensive, but they do like professional framing, because a part of this is also like, okay, if I'm already overwhelmed, like the idea that I'm gonna like, take a picture, like print it somewhere, and then go buy a frame or then like, go get it framed, and it's really nice with the keepsake. And I'm not sponsored by keepsake at all. But it's like I literally just like pick the frame and the mat and then like it comes in the mail. And so even just like once a year, I tried to get like an updated family photo. That's nice like that.

  Katie Saro 32:14

  I love that. And if you don't have money for that third shot, your Goodwill has a website, you can go to shop goodwill.com. And all I bought the most beautiful canvas paintings that were just enrolled at Canvas original art for $5.99. Those three rolled up beautiful original works of art, and I just thumbtack them to the wall. I didn't spend the money to frame I just thumbtacks on the wall. And they make me so happy because it's like, I sit there and look at these paintings. And I wonder who painted them where they came from. Like there's the stroke of the human who made them on there. And it was cheap, easy, and really made are added to that sense of wonder that I'm always trying to create a house that creativity and sense of wonder that objects can bring to your home,

  KC Davis 33:05

  I have two pictures in my home that I really love. One is when we moved into this house. So the last house we lived in was like the first home we'd ever bought, like my daughter was brought home from the hospital there it was longest place we'd really ever lived. And when we went to closing on this house, our realtor like brought us a closing gift. And what he had done was he had taken a picture of the front of our house that we were moving out of and had someone on Etsy, like watercolor it and then he framed it and gave it to us and had the address on it. And I literally was like crying in the closing because I was like this is the most thoughtful thing. And like we're gonna look back at this house for the rest of our lives as like the first home that we ever had. And and then the iMac gave me the idea of recently we had to put one of our like, beloved cats down, she had cancer and this was actually my husband's cat he had her before we ever met at a time in his life that was really difficult. He like went and got this cat and like, you know now we've had her for over 10 years. So I did the same thing. Like it gave me the idea I took a picture of her and I found someone on Etsy that does like custom animal portraits and like for 50 bucks he sent me this like watercolor painting of her and it looks exactly like her and so now she like hangs on our wall. And it was like such an important thing for my grief especially because something about it hits different than just like a photo of her right and it's just like kind of like her head in her face. And now she's like framed up on the wall and it's almost like she's like kind of looking over us so she's like still there and so there's like these small things but that's like been like another thing where it's like okay, when I find like an art piece that I like I tried to get it and then I try to occasionally make photos but then that's like a little third category I've found like, Okay, this is like beautiful and reminds me of things but also was like I can do a little extra step, to make it really interesting and point to that like bigger thing.

  Katie Saro 35:05

  I think that's what I was talking about when I say that something is more beautiful when it points to something greater than itself. So there's a picture, right of a person. And then there's a painting of a picture of a person. And that doesn't just point to that person. But that points to how much somebody loved you to order that painting for you, it points to the artist who created that with their loving hands, you know, and all those different layers of humanity and an inanimate objects makes it more beautiful. And it's always hard. Just like the word beauty is hard. It's always hard to explain to people that some things are more beautiful than other things, because we kind of get this achiness feeling when we say that, like, don't tell me what's beautiful. Don't say don't there's no objective beauty. It's all subjective. And I don't mean it in a way that's putting down something that you think is beautiful, I say some things can be objectively beautiful, or more beautiful. And I can explain why the reason why is because it points to something that's greater than itself. And if we just take that small step to think about why something's beautiful, then we can create more beauty in our home. And that's what it's all about is just creating more beauty for ourselves as a gift to ourselves, just like care tasks are a gift to ourselves, creating beauty and just taking the time to consider what is beautiful is a gift to herself.

  KC Davis 36:40

  So let me ask you this, I'm gonna give you an example. And maybe you could kind of walk me through the process of what I should be asking myself. So one of the rooms in our house that has not been done anything with is the study. So there's like this little study, and then my husband was really excited about it, because he's never like, had a real in home office. And we haven't done anything with it yet. But like, what, what I asked myself, or where would I even start? Because I have no like designer knowledge about like, what to do in this room? Or like what pieces to get, but like, Where would I begin? If I wanted to decorate that room? Or design that room?

  Katie Saro 37:14

  Well, what I would first ask is, how do you use the room? Or how does your husband use just a desk, like he uses it to work basically. And he doesn't really have anything? And the only like, functional important thing is like his computer. Okay, that's like the functional how he uses it. And what is the light situation? Do you have windows, there's a really big window with like shutters on it that open, and then there's overhead lighting, and there's overhead lighting, okay, so we're gonna set the mood for how you use the room, and he uses the room for working. I'm doing this with my husband's in office right now, too, which is definitely a work in progress. But for my husband, he loves to work in rooms that have tons of light to needs lots of light, otherwise you get sleepy. So the first office we did was moody because I was thinking about zoom backgrounds and what a lawyer would have in a zoom background. And I did that like they just did, what I say not to do is I thought, What should I design this room to look like in a zoom background to make them look like an important lawyer. And that was the wrong way of doing it. And we painted the walls dark green and had velvet and books and wood. And he hated it because it was dark. So now we move to a different room. And we're saying, Okay, let's not think about what the Zoom background should be. Let's think about what you want in this space. So the functionality has to be one of the first questions. Yes, yes, the functionality and not what you think it should look like, which I did wrong. So he likes lots of light. And I hate white walls. I think that is it just doesn't inspire me. But he loves light, bright things. It has a lot of light. So we painted the walls white. And then right now, when we first did it, he just had what you have. So it's just a desk and a computer. And it echoes and I'm wondering if your study echoes when he's in there if it doesn't have any other furniture?

  KC Davis 39:11

  I don't know, I guess I've never looked, I do know that like functionally, you know, all he needs us to be able to do at a computer. He has like mentioned that he would love to have like, sort of like a big old school desk.You know what I mean? Like something you would see like, you know, a President signing something on or something, you know what I mean? Like just a big kind of stately desk, and he says he loves to be surrounded by books, there's really only has like two preferences beyond the functionality.

  Katie Saro 39:40

  Well, that's great. That's easy to do. It seems like he knows what to do. So I would say build some shelves and let's say you get an hour kind of push back on the big stately desk and ask him why he wants the big stately desk does he want the big stately desk because he thinks that that's what you're supposed to have when you're an adult and yet The Office, you're supposed to have the big desk? Or does he need a desk that has a bunch of drawers and is small so it doesn't get cluttered very easily? Or does he like to have a big desk because he likes to spread out and work in a bunch of clutter and have books stacked on there? So first, I'd push back on that and say, Do you really want a stately desk? Or should we have like a desk in the corner that small that doesn't get cluttered, and then another table, that's, you know, something else? So I push back a little bit on what people say that they want just to make sure that it's their own idea, and not an idea that they came up with? Because of what other people think. And then same with the books does he want? Does he use books? Or does he just want the look of books for the look of book?

  KC Davis 40:45

  Yeah, like we have all of our books that like we've read, but he like famously never wants to get rid of books. So it's not that they're like, they're all he's read them all. But he's not using like reference books, right, where he's needing to, like, get them off the shelves. And then the other thing is that, you know, so that was my first thought is like, oh, let's do like bookshelves. But then I get into these places where I don't know how to like work around certain features. So for example, in this room, there's wood paneling on the bottom half of the rooms. And in the ceiling is this I forget what it's called, where it's like a lot of different shapes. Does that make sense? It's like all of the like it's wood, a coffered ceiling. Yes, a coffered ceiling. So I'm looking at this. And I'm like, okay, he wants books. So I thought bookshelf, but then like, you can't really like put the bookshelf because like, there's not like a way for it to go up to the coffered ceiling without it can't go to do the ceiling. And it'll stick out a little from the wall over this paneling. And so that's always where I kind of freeze. I'm like, Okay, well, I don't know how to give him like, the look or the mood he wants with these, like restrictions.

  Katie Saro 41:56

  Got it. Got it? Well, and the thing with just the way that you said it kind of points to the problem, because you're saying it, how do we get it to go to the ceiling when it's a coffered ceiling? And then I'd say why does it have to go to the ceiling? You know, why? Can't it sit a little bit out from the wall? Why does it have to be a bookshelf? Why can't it be? Maybe around the so you have paneling or wainscotting? Is that what you're saying? So why don't you just put one shelf on the top of the wainscoting all the way around. And instead of bookshelf, it's just a shelf that's on top of the wainscotting that goes all the way around the room. So it still holds all the books, but it's not up and down, like what you'd see in the library. It's some strip of books that go all the way around the wainscotting. So a creative idea to that would be what I would say to that.

  KC Davis 42:45

  And then like, so if I didn't have access to you to be like, solve this. Yeah. What would I do? Like what I go to Google and like, Where would be good places to like, look around for like, if I got to a place where it's like, okay, this is the mood I want. These are kind of like, what I'm working with the Restrict whether it's like room restrictions or budget restrictions. And then you're saying like, the next step is get creative. So like, if I'm just a person who like, where do I go to get inspiration on how to get creative? Like, do you have any kind of go twos?

  Katie Saro 43:13

  Well, first, I would say that, okay, so you're saying no one like you don't have me there to help you. And we're thinking about somebody who's just in their home, trying to design around a problem. So the first rule would be think outside the box, and don't think that there's one way that you should do it. And then once you think outside the box and think, hey, this might work, then I usually go to Pinterest, and I'll just type in something and scroll through, and maybe some sort of inspiration might hit me. But really, the hard answer is that you have to try and fail a couple times, if you don't have a designer who's helping you are you really have a problem. The best way to do it on your own is trial and error. And that's how you learn, you know, try something if you don't like it, trust your gut, try something else. If you don't like it, trust your gut, try something else and know that it's not going to be done in a day. And that's that's the hard answer. But it's also

  KC Davis 44:14

  it's also kind of the fun answer, though, like not to get discouraged the first time because

  Katie Saro 44:19

  Yeah, and think of it, you know, like I said, it's an art, it's not a science. So, I mean, I hate saying go look on Pinterest for inspiration. I think you have to be in a good place before you go looking for inspiration on the internet for something and I think that you are the best inspiration. So really, trial and error is the best inspiration and to think that it's fun. It's like creating a painting, you might make a bright bad stroke and you gotta paint over it. And that in itself is a gift to you. So it's almost like the process of creating beauty is just as important as what it should look like in the end. Does that make sense?

  KC Davis 44:57

  Yeah, that's actually really helpful because Is that gives me sort of like an order of things to think on. I think that's like really helpful practical advice.

  Katie Saro 45:06

  Yeah, maybe just start is the best advice for anybody who's feeling like they don't deserve beauty, they don't know how to get beauty and they're looking around and not seeing beauty. Just start. And that's why thrifting is good to because you, it only cost you $4. So you can try something else. But you know, it's more about keeping the principles in mind than here, let me tell you your to do list of what to do in a room because it's not going to be the same for everybody. It's not going to be the same for every room. But that principle of not thinking what it should look like, of trial and error, thinking outside the box, being creative. And then thinking about is this beautiful? Because it makes me feel a certain way. And if it's not, you don't need to have it in your home. And like is the beauty because like if I was in a room alone, looking at it, like, do I find it beautiful, as opposed to like, is it beautiful? Because in my mind, the imaginary audience in my head would say that that looks right. Yes. And that makes me feel good. Like that does make me feel some type of way. But yes, and I don't know if that's even helpful. And I feel like I wrote down a list. Before we did this podcast of tips. I want to tell people tips. And people always ask me tips. And I feel like there's lots of tips on the internet for hang curtains, lighting, a rug, here's where to find them. And those can be useful. But really, the most important thing is just starting in the right place. And having the right idea before you start that it should come from within you and not from outside of you. And knowing what is beautiful. And what is commercially beautiful. So what is beautiful because of what it is and what is commercially beautiful.

  KC Davis 46:54

  I will say that that's been my like formula for my rooms here is like, Okay, I know that if I can get curtains, a rug, lighting and things on the wall that like, I have like a baseline room that makes me really comfy. You know what I mean? And then I work on like, what kind of curtains or what kind of rug or what do I want on the walls? But I know that at the end of the day, like if I could just do those. Was that four things I listed? Curtains, rug?

  Katie Saro 47:23

  Yeah, yeah, like walls, the curtains? Yeah, yeah.

  KC Davis 47:26

  Like if I could just do those four things in the types of things that I really like. And I even have some rooms where I was like, clearly this doesn't all go together. But each piece individually makes me happy. So who cares? Yeah, yeah. And like, that's kind of my little like hack for, like, if I could just do those four things that like this will feel like a room.

  Katie Saro 47:44

  And I would add to those four things, something of meaning something here, this is what I would add to those four things. Because maybe someone is like that family I mentioned who just had blank walls. And basically a cot bed, no nightstands and like a holy blanket like a one quilt on their bed. And that's all they had in the room, what I would add to your list is something that's beautiful, just for the sake of being beautiful, and no other purpose whatsoever. So something that reminds them of something they loves an heirloom piece, a painting a statue, and at least one thing in every room that you think is beautiful. And it's not beautiful, and functions, but beautiful because or is something that is just beautiful, like just beautiful for the sake of being beautiful. That's its function. Yeah. And it's functional, because it's beautiful. It's not also functional and beautiful. And I think you need at least one of those in every room.

  KC Davis 48:55

  I love that I'm gonna literally take that. And there's like one room I can think of in my house. And I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna do those five things. And I'm gonna see what it looks like.

  Katie Saro 49:06

  Well, I hope that's helpful. And you know, it's a long process, my bedroom right now has no art on the walls. We just moved in a year and a half ago. It has no art on the walls. It's just one bed. It's just the blanket that we moved. When there's no rug, there's nothing you know, and that's my job. And it's okay. It's just not where we're at right now. We have a lot of other things to do, and that's okay. But I want to give people permission to give beauty to themselves to create a beautiful home in a way that's easy and simple. Well, that's really helpful. Where can people find you if they want to follow you see you learn from you. I'm on Instagram at Katie sorrow. I have a website you can find out there. And I do have two seasons of a TV show called The Art of vintage bits on Magnolia network and discovery plus,

  KC Davis 49:58

  That's awesome. I'm gonna go check

  Katie Saro 50:00

  those out. Yeah, I don't know if I said anything helpful, but you did. You helped me Listen, I'm gonna I'm inspired on how to go fix these rooms now.

  KC Davis 50:09

  I really appreciate you reaching out. And I appreciate the conversation that we've had. Because I think that, that that is like one of the breakthroughs that I think has been most helpful to me, even as my mom's been on PI. It's been interesting. Like, when I unpacked my house, I have this like, order that I feel like I have to go and where it's like, I have to get everything out of the box, then I have to get everything put away. Then I can do the decorative stuff. And my mom, she like, got half of the stuff out of boxes, and then started hanging pictures. And there was this part of me that was like, ah, that's the wrong order. But then she said, she was like, I just need something beautiful on the walls, so that I can feel like we're getting closer to home. I love your mom. I know, I was like this is so it's such a metaphor for a life event. You know what I mean? Where it's like, Yes, I still, you know, this still needs to be functional. And I still, you know, need to meet my basic needs, and I need to survive, but like, she kind of looks at it at this holistic, like, it's just as important that I'm allowing myself to see beauty and do something enjoyable as it is to, you know, find out where all of these little votives are gonna go and like what drawers are gonna hold the silverware and things like that. So I just that was kind of my little

  Katie Saro 51:22

  Who needs a place who needs a place to sit when you have beautiful art on the walls. That couple that I designed their living room or design their bedroom that was empty and that said that they had been drowning for so many years. The first thing that I bought was a giant ostrich was a wooden ostrich that was painted multi colors. It was like life size. And that's the first thing I bought for the room. And that's what inspired the whole room and I didn't really do a whole lot else. I just bought this giant ostrich and put it on the wall. And it served No, I didn't turn it into a table. I didn't turn it into a chair. It just put it on the wall because I thought that that would inspire the rest of their house to say okay, what is the ostrich that this room needs? Like? What is the ostrich of this room? You know, what is the humor that I can bring into this room? What's the art for art's sake that I can bring into this room?

  KC Davis 52:15

  That's awesome.

  Katie Saro 52:16

  Because beauty first, maybe that should be the

  KC Davis 52:19

  I love it. Thank you so much.

  Katie Saro 52:22

  Thanks for talking to me.

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Today’s conversation brings us to the unusual intersection of social media influence, DIY home repair, and trans activism. I’m excited to introduce you to my amazing guest for today’s show!

Mercury Stardust, the “Trans Handy Ma’am,” is a professional home maintenance technician, burlesque performer, author, and award-winning activist. Mercury credits her TikTok success to her experience teaching burlesque, where she learned to communicate and create a safe space for students who had frequently experienced trauma. She has been featured in stories by NBC, NPR, Buzzfeed, Newsweek, the Washington Post, and Pink News. Her leadership within the trans community has led to collaborations with such brands as I Fix It, Lowe’s, and the trans healthcare community Point of Pride. Mercury’s recent livestream fundraiser ended up raising over $2.2 million, and she’s embarking on a huge book tour this fall to promote her book, Safe & Sound: A Renter-Friendly Guide to Home Repair.

Show Highlights: 

●      How Mercury created a safe space with “Gentle DIY” in the male-dominated handyman world

●      How Mercury became a home maintenance technician to supplement her living as a cabaret performer

●      Why Mercury’s content caters to apartment renters and others who may not be comfortable with tools and DIY repairs

●      Why Mercury shows up authentically without pretense and perfectionism

●      What it’s like to be a prominent trans woman on the internet and still manage her mental health

●      How Mercury handles the task of setting boundaries with people to protect her emotional and mental health

●      Highlights from Mercury’s book, Safe & Sound, and her upcoming 52-city book tour

●      How Mercury leans into her weaknesses and insecurities

 Resources and Links:

Connect with Mercury Stardust: Website, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, and Safe & Sound book

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello you sentient balls of stardust. Today is a good day for struggle care. I am so excited to have mercury Star Dust here on the podcast episode say hello mercury. Well

  Mercury Stardust 0:15

  hello, Mercury.

  KC Davis 0:16

  Mercury and I've been listening to my podcast episodes and I realized I never introduce anybody. So I'm going to do that right official Okay, so Mercury Stardust is the trans handy ma'am. A professional home maintenance technician, performer and award winning activist Mercury credits her tick tock success to her experience teaching burlesque where she learned to communicate and create a safe space for students who had frequently experienced trauma. She has been featured in stories by NBC, NPR, Buzzfeed, Newsweek, Washington Post and pink news. Her leadership within the trans community has led to collaborations with such brands as I fix it, Lowe's and the trans healthcare community point of pride. Let me just stop right there. Because Can we just start by saying that you recently did a fundraiser?

  Mercury Stardust 1:04

  Yeah. 30 hour live stream? Yeah.

  KC Davis 1:06

  Yes. And your goal was to raise $1 million?

  Mercury Stardust 1:09

  Yes.

  KC Davis 1:10

  How much money did you end up raising?

  Mercury Stardust 1:12

  $2,253,000 a pretty wild number, to be honest.

  KC Davis 1:20

  So before we started recording, you and I were talking about how both of us have kind of known each other para socially through Tik Tok. And I want to just kind of like get into your origin story. So those who are listening, you know, you are most well known on tick tock, as the trans handyman, where you talk about home repair, home maintenance, and you really kind of geared towards renters and people that maybe have never learned how to do those things. And you're a safe space. Like that's obviously a very male dominated space like the handyman world. Yeah. So talk to me a bit about creating this space where people who maybe often feel excluded from being able to learn those types of things can come to you,

  Mercury Stardust 2:02

  it is wild, because so much of the way I teach is a direct result of how I was treated, right. So like I was treated badly when I was learning these things. When I was trying to be able to become a part of this industry. I wasn't always treated with like rainbows and sunshine, I was treated with a lot of like, you know, mud in your eye kind of mentality. And in order to have me survive, I just kind of like toughened up and turn the other cheek. And I hate that mentality. I hate it. I never want anyone else to have to go through what I went through. So naturally, when it came to educating people, it just was like a natural transition for me in a lot of ways. And I know a thing or two about transitions. So like, I just like becoming online and doing all this stuff. And communicating what I call a gentle DIY is very much just instinctual because it's the way I wish I was taught when I was being taught all this stuff.

  KC Davis 2:55

  And so what kinds of things like what are some of your biggest videos on like home care that you do? Because you're not the kind of homecare that I am where we talk about like dishes and laundry and cleaning?

  Mercury Stardust 3:05

  Yeah, no, the biggest videos I've ever done had been a wide variety. I'm very, very lucky that I went viral for like 10 different things all at once. But one of the biggest things is probably my wall stud video, how to find a wall started with a magnet, how to fix a door, a bunch of loose screws and a door hinge with toothpicks. You know how to fix mini blinds in your apartment by taking the bottom blind and putting it in the middle. Just the list goes on and on. Really, all the stuff that I thought was pretty straightforward stuff. Right? Like either I learned it on the farm growing up as a kiddo. Or I learned it when I was in the industry for 16 years. And I just thought a lot of this was secondhand or or like instinctual? You know, but there's no such thing as common sense, right? As we both know, there's many common ideas, right? But that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is going to automatically know how to do this stuff. So a lot of the stuff that went viral for was things that are pretty foundational educational tools in the home maintenance industry.

  KC Davis 4:09

  So when you got into home maintenance, were you primarily working on houses or apartment complexes.

  Mercury Stardust 4:15

  I got in through the whole maintenance door through the back door. I was a traveling cabaret performer and I needed to make money. And here's the thing as a traveling cabaret performer, I went to all these shows across the country, right? 125 different cities 24 or 26 different states. And I made my living Thursday through Sunday, just juggling, I'm half naked in front of strangers, you know, because we toured primarily in gay bars all across the country. But you know, if anyone who's in the industry in burlesque and cabaret knows you just don't make a whole lot of money anymore from the industry. So a friend of mine said, Hey, you should try to be a maintenance intern at this, you know company that does theatrical lighting called latronnik theater controls. And you should become a maintenance technician in their facilities department as an intern for some money. And I said, Sure, I'll apply, we'll see what happens. I don't really want to do this stuff, I kind of hate it. But might as well, I guess I'm good at it. I'm good at fixing things and working with my hands. So why not? So I applied and I got the job immediately. And then within four months, I became a full time maintenance technician. And then within two years, I became a full time Maintenance Technician grade two, which is a big deal in our industry. And then I just kept on going, I just kept getting getting certification with the certification, and I got 14 certifications in the field. And I primarily at first worked in industry for 10 years as a building technician. That is, like more like big factory company technicians, people who walk around and fix machinery, or people who walk around and fix, you know, maybe doors and painting and stuff like that, but not a lot of home stuff. I then shifted into property management and into private contracting, while I was there as part time, and then it became full time later on.

  KC Davis 6:02

  One of the things that I love that you do quite a lot is that the amount of times that I've had something that I wanted to do or wanted to fix, and I go to YouTube, and I go, okay, and bla bla bla how to fix this thing. And it's like, go and get the Agra 3005. And I'm like, I don't own that like, and you have so many solutions that I feel like are actually reachable for somebody who might just be renting an apartment, like maybe they have a basic toolkit. And the super that won't fix something.

  Mercury Stardust 6:32

  Yeah, is this mentality that you and I know very well about intersectionality. You and I have talked extensively online about this. And I think that like this is the same mentality I had when it came to helping people with burlesque, right, and making sure that we open that door and make people feel comfortable with things where they're at and making sure that we lean towards voices that are not often heard in our spaces, right. And one of the voices we don't hear enough in home maintenance is renters. And if you lean into them, right, if you lean into their restrictions and their experience, what you actually end up doing is you make things way more accessible for literally everyone. If you're worrying about cost, right? Like there's a complementation well guess what happens, you're helping renters if you're talking about like basic foundational entry level home maintenance ideas, then yeah, that's almost perfect for renters, because everything is in a rental, it will be in a home, but not everything that's in someone's house that they own is going to be in a rental. So like, by that very definition, I was focusing on people that could help everyone and everyone else in the industry, including this old house, all of them are doing is focusing on huge ideas for people that have become a select few in this country. A lot of people now especially, you know, my age and younger cannot afford to access housing, right. And a lot of us struggle day in and day out to try to make ends meet. So yeah, you know, the trick I have that went viral a few weeks ago about using toothpaste to be able to place a picture on a wall, so you know where to put the nail

  KC Davis 8:08

  I just used i, Yes, in the video that I posted where I said, you know, I wanted to do my gallery wall. And I had this like, long thing in my head about, okay, I need to trace each one on butcher block paper, and then lay it all out. And then I need to a laser level every little bit. And then at the end, I was like, I'm not going to do this, this is too many steps. I just need to throw them up there. And that's what I did. I got I had some that had the two holes at the back and I was like oh shit, and I did I put the toothpaste around it and I stuck it on the wall and I could see where it needed to go. And that's the other thing we talked about both having ADHD, one of the things that I find is that if I need to do something in my home, whether it's like I needed to put together some shelves, I needed to put up a pegboard for my tool. So they're easier to find. I wanted to put up my gallery wall because of my ADHD, if it's something if I get in, and there's one thing different, like, okay, I can hang a picture, but I've only ever hung a picture with one nail with the you know, the wire and all of a sudden it's the two and I'm going well how do I make those even little things like that, that I feel like other people might be able to just swerve and Google and figure out it paralyzes me, you know, and I sit around, I put it off and I put it off and I put it off. And one of the things that your content has been really helpful for me is not only the literal tips and tricks that I've learned, but also just this idea of maybe I could do this though, like maybe I could do it and it wouldn't be too hard and it wouldn't be too complicated. And you know, and so sometimes I just need that extra sort of push to go well, maybe this won't be as complicated as I think because I am so used to thinking that everything in the home maintenance world is going to be complicated.

  Mercury Stardust 9:55

  Yeah, like everything. It almost feels like it's gatekeeping ourselves. In a lot of ways, because like, here's the thing, if you never see yourself on these screens, or in this field, when you ask for help, if you never see a queer person or a trans person, or a woman who's wearing overalls and tools and doing this work, you're gonna start thinking this stuff isn't meant for you, the representation works for us to like, isn't just about helping other people come to terms with who they are a representation can genuinely be us giving ourselves permission sometimes to be able to want to learn how to do this stuff.

  KC Davis 10:33

  And just showing up as a real person. Because, like, I know, plenty of women that do DIY content and things like that, where they're, you know, putting together two by fours. But a lot of them are very straightforwardly like, thin, tan, wealthy women with perfect hair that are like, so that I whipped up a cabinet out of scrap wood. And I'm like, well, that's not I can't do that. But it gives you this idea that like, you almost have to be the kind of person that has your shit put together to be able to do something like that.

  Mercury Stardust 11:07

  Yeah, there's some videos where I have like, stands on my shirts, and stuff, you know, like, you see me and it's like, does she just come out of like, a hotdog cart? Or, you know, and I'm 100% I think they're like, Yeah, I can be in full makeup, right. But I could also be in stand outfits and stuff. And it's really important to me, that I don't clean up completely for that notion. Because here's another thing, a lot of the DIY Girls on the internet that I followed for a long time before I came here, you know, on the internet myself, looked like they would commit hate crimes against me, you know, like, they didn't always look like,

  KC Davis 11:45

  I'm sorry, that's so funny.

  Mercury Stardust 11:48

  It's true. Like, sometimes, I would be like, Oh, I love her. And then I would like dig deeper into her and be like, No, I don't love her anymore. I mean, like, it's like the religious undertones. Or maybe they don't have very sensitive ideas to those who are disabled. You know, they don't meet you where you're at, still, in a lot of ways. They are upholding the patriarchy and not necessarily opening the door. It's this mentality of like, oh, I walked through the door. But in order for me to exist in this room, I have to make sure I slam that door shut before you get through it. And 100% feels that way in this industry, sometimes, especially for DIY, like FIM content creators.

  KC Davis 12:32

  And the amount of times that you've come on the internet and just said, I am having a really hard time is so important. Because you know, and I'm kind of similar to you, like I don't want to be all put together. And even when I'm doing something that's not about my house, I don't want to clean up my house just to make a video. Because it contributes to that idea of like, I'm not allowed to do a fun project. Unless I'm on top of everything else, I can't prioritize fixing that door that's been bothering me for however long, because I've got a sink full of dirty dishes, or I can't, you know, and there's just all of this weird moralistic, perfectionistic hierarchy. And there's something really powerful about the way that you show up, and sometimes say, I feel really broken today, or, you know, I'm not all put together today, but like, we can still get shit done.

  Mercury Stardust 13:20

  I am working really hard on myself. And I am working extremely hard on trying to take care of myself more, I'm not good at it. I'm very bad at taking care of myself. I'm very good at helping others. I have very little skill when it comes to making bridge for myself. And what I'm finding is that what helps me a lot is to just call what it is and say what it is sometimes, you know, if I'm having a real bad time, one of the biggest stressors I have is I gotta feel like I'm making content. I got to feel like I'm making content, I got to feel like I'm producing I got to feel like I'm on the top of the world. I got to feel like oh, how dare I even feel bad because blah, blah, blah. So what helps me is just to say, hey, you know, guys not doing good. I'm a hot mess right now. And I'm not positive, I'm going to be able to make content and I took most of this past month off. I took a lot of this past month off making content and boy feels like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders.

  KC Davis 14:26

  Alright, so I want to talk a little bit about that about what it's like being a large content creator and the mental health side of it and all this. Let's take a quick break, hear from a sponsor, and we'll be back. Okay, we're back. So I want I would love to talk to you about what that experience has been like for you because I know what it's been like for me and I am in a similar place of like I posted three to four to six times a day for like two years straight and then hit a place where it was like I could force myself to keep doing it at this pace, but I'm not feeling it. I'm not in the flow and you know, talk to me about what it has been like to Be a prominent trans woman on the internet,

  I knew I was gonna love talking to you, because I, you hit it right on the head. Sometimes when people ask me this question, they leave out the trans part. And it's a huge part of my identity, I just wrote a script for a new video that would coming out sometime soon, about how being trans is a small facet of my life. But it's also like, I'm five foot 11, right? Being mean being five foot 11, something I don't even think about. But other people perceive me as five foot 11 Because I am five foot 11. And how I am able to reach things off at the top of the shelf, how am I able to do all these things? I access the world through a different lens than someone who's five foot two? And that's just that's a fact of the world.

  I'm literally five foot two.

  Mercury Stardust 15:47

  Yeah, oh, yeah. I call that. But like, I have a way through the world differently. So how I experienced the things just are innately different. And sometimes people leave that part out about me. And it's like, You're not telling the full story. So to answer your question, Casey, like, I'm also transitioning in front of millions of people. If you look back two years ago, two and a half years ago, to my first few videos, my bone structure and my cheekbones are innately different, my chest has evolved much more, I don't look the same, I just don't look the same. I don't even sound the same contrary to a lot of people's belief system. I am in fact doing voice training. And my voice is changing slightly over the last two years. And how I'm trying to talk to my audience is changing. Being a large content creator in front of potentially millions of people every day is a lot on your brain, when you're also someone who a lot of trans people look up to a lot of trans people look up to me, and maybe they've been transitioning longer than I have. Or maybe they just feel like there isn't any other trans person and they know that they can relate to them. And we I'm someone they can relate to in some way, that those responsibilities. Oh, my God, especially right now with all of the legislation against trans people. And all the communication about trans people in the last year to two years has been just absolutely nuts. So but so it's been wild is I feel like I'm strapped to a rocket Casey. And I feel like someone lit it. And I'm just waiting for it to fly off the handle. And I'm just like looking at the wick as getting shorter and shorter. And it's terrifying. I feel like I'm white knuckling it every day. And that's part of the mental health part of the mental health struggle is me feeling out where I am in the landscape of living my life, because there is no more blueprint for me when I wasn't just a technician, and I would fix toilets. And I would fix sinks, and I would fix doors. There was a blueprint of how I did my life, you clock in you clock out, you go home, you you know, you raise the kids and you go back to work. And it made sense to me, it was a blue line, not my days are sometimes all over the place, I can work a four hour day, I could work a 16 hour day I could work. You know, I could be in Anaheim for a week, I could be in New York for a week I could be you know, I may be doing a 52 city book tour like him in the fall, right? I'd be doing all these things all over the place. And there is no more structure in my life that made me feel like I was tethered to a reality that I understood. I feel like I no longer am in the realm of realistic expectations. You know, I feel like I don't know what my life is anymore. And as a trans person who's also just like, trying to figure it out. It's terrifying, to be honest.

  KC Davis 18:37

  So let me ask you two questions. And you can answer either one, whichever one's more interesting. The first is, do you ever feel there's this thing that I experienced sometimes because so much of my platform was built on being sort of a compassionate therapeutic presence, that when I perceive someone demanding gentleness from me, despite their behavior, there's this like, almost rebellion where I want to be a piece of shit to them. Because I there's like this resistance to this, like, even though I was the one who chose like, this is going to be my platform or whatever. I kind of like refuse to be someone's little character. And then the next question is, you know, how do you feel like how is it to balance this feeling of being a leader in the space without being the spokesperson for all trans people, particularly with trans people looking to you and non trans people looking to you?

  Mercury Stardust 19:38

  I think for me, in a lot of ways I try to remember remind myself all the time, Casey, that I am someone who consented to one video on the internet. You know what I mean? I consented to me, telling people that I was an intersectional feminist and trans maintenance lady that was my original tagline. It was a stupid tagline. And I consented to this idea of like that video itself is going to be inspiring and helping people and being kind. And then I felt like I was forced, in a lot of ways to maintain that ideal. The more I went along, the more I got a lot more rebellious with that, like image of myself, you know, that's when I used to love doing my weekly burlesque show where people would watch me online because I got to be like, Fuck you guys. You don't I mean, I got to be like, Yeah, my butthole you know, I got to Conor act a lot of the notions about me. But now that I'm farther away from my retirement from burlesque, and now I'm just doing this as a full time content creator. It's gotten more and more where people look at me as like a holier than thou entity sometimes, and I do get very uncomfortable with it. I do find myself because here's the thing. I am nice. I'm kind, but I'm not as Jory. Lauric skull, my very good friend would say, I'm no one's pushover. And I think sometimes people like they'll like, sometimes they'll meet me. And they'll tell me, they're very, very traumatic stories. And they'll tell me how I helped him in those traumatic times. And I'm so grateful to be able to help people in that way. But I'm also not emotionally capable enough to process every single person's trauma, I'm not able to. So I'm finding ways to try to distance myself sometimes for my own mental health, from the absolute unloading of people's emotions. So like I am, I can be kind one of the kindest things I can do to people when they don't know who I am. And just come up to me and tell me this kind of stuff. It's been like, thank you so much for telling me that. I'm not in a great place right now. I cannot hear more of this. But I want to send you my love. You mean a lot to me. And that's it. That's kind that is kind. And that is compassionate. But also that's setting a guy named boundary. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I think for so long, I felt like if I said anything that was counterintuitive to me being like, don't you worry, you tell me everything. You tell me about all that pain that you have. And then I'm not going to I'm going to go home and I'm going to cry into a pillow alone for hours. Because now, not just you but five other people do the same thing to me at Walmart, you know what I mean? And that's something that's happened. I don't know how what you feel like and what you experience. But for me, if I go to any gay establishment, or if I go to, you know, a pride, or if I go to a gay bookstore, if I go to anything with gay, queer LGBTQIA in it, I'm going to get bombarded and often put into a situation where emotionally I'm going to have a lot to process. And it's a weird feeling to have to be in spaces that are safe spaces for the queer community, but are no longer emotional safe spaces for me, you know what I mean? Yes, I'm on Yeah, if I'm going to a nightclub, and I'm like, Oh, good, I get to see a drag show. Well, guess what, you're gonna be almost a bigger name than a lot of the drag queens on stage. So you better be on you gotta be in full makeup, you better be in full gear, you better just own it. Because if you don't own it, it gets even more uncomfortable. And that's a hard dichotomy. So now into the second question about being a leader and not being a spokesperson. Boy, after we raised that $2 million, the amount of of people who were wanting more from me was surreal, Jory. And I, both trans women, and we work with point of pride, which is a nonprofit organization that actually vets and helps people directly, they do mutual aid for us. So we don't have to vet every single person ourselves, right, which is a huge task, I could never vet that many people, right, we helped 11,000 people, that's an insane thing to do, right? without actually having a structure around you to be able to do that. So after we raised all this money for point of pride, and we do all that the one of the biggest push backs we got from people was that we should have did actual mutual aid. People were really upset with us for not doing direct GoFundMe for people or things like that. And there's no way at a large scale, to be able to help that many people you just there isn't a functional way that I can still live my life and still be okay. And to do that. That's where burnout comes and that's where like, there will be problems. You still if someone has said it was like, I wish you could do direct mutual aid instead of rolling a dice like You're lucky that you get randomly picked. What is me picking on GoFundMe randomly do is the same thing. That's the same thing. But in point of pride, the notion There are criteria that makes you eligible, they try their best as much as they can be equitable. So they focus really strongly on people who are the most marginalized to help them and because of that, and that's been who I'm I'm aligning myself with, I very much have been take During their example, and using that, to help me understand how to lead in this industry, like how to lead in my community, I don't necessarily have to be the voice for every single person. But I do feel like, I need to be hyper aware of how I am perceived by people. And I need to be hyper aware of how my actions will hurt or affect or uplift or diminish other people's voices. Yeah, be honest, I'm still working this one out, KC

  KC Davis 25:29

  Yeah, I mean, listen, meet you. Well, I was just gonna say that, you know, the thing that we're not saying to each other, is like, the caveats that I would give to somebody that wasn't also a large content creator, which is the like, now obviously, I love what I do. And I am very grateful to have a large platform, and it is very meaningful. And I know that I'm privileged to be able to make a living doing this thing that I really enjoy doing. Like, I don't feel the need to say those things to you, and you don't feel need to say them to me, because we know how awesome it is, and how much privilege to just kind of have gotten lucky on the viral videos.

  Mercury Stardust 26:04

  Yeah, this job is the coolest job in the world. Are you kidding me? You know, it is the coolest, you know, here's the thing, like, for me, I worked 6570 hours a week, you know, in either construction, or maintenance or private contracting for years for years. You know, like, I'm my knees are still shot, my back is not doing great, you know, this job is a whole different kind of exhaustion. There is a genuine, I gotta be honest with people, I would not recommend this job for people who have heart conditions, I'm not gonna lie, it isn't. I feel like I'm stressed to the max most days in ways I've never been. I feel like I've found new ways to be exhausted in the last two years of my life. And I'm grateful. Like, I am so grateful for having the team around me, I have some mercury starters, media is not just me anymore, it is six people total, we have five people who work with me most days, three of which are full time people, and everyone gets paid equitably. I do not make much more than everyone else does. The minimal person I think gets paid three, two bucks an hour. So we try our best every single day to balance things out and make it less scary for me. But yeah, it is a lot. It is so much. And when you're talking to other content creators, there's like a shorthand that you get to have with each other where it's like, Hey, you already know these things. And I can't imagine when content creators, don't have a business person don't have a creative director and don't have those people around them. I did that for the first year. I don't recommend it.

  KC Davis 27:46

  That's amazing. I don't have any of those people. But I will say this, because I publish with Simon and Schuster. I do have a publicist, I have an agent, I have an overseas agent. I have like a marketing, you know what I mean? But they're not like reporting to me daily. They're like working for Simon and Schuster. But it's still a huge load. And I do have a woman that does my Instagram for me. And I think that the thing is like, it is awesome. But there's also this weird space where like, it used to be that like, famous people were celebrities, you were a celebrity or you were a non celebrity. And it's weird to be on the world of content creating where you have a platform, you become sort of a known person. And also you're reading your comment section,

  Mercury Stardust 28:33

  back celebrities had insulation from themselves in their fans at one point. We don't, you know, like it's a direct line to us in a lot of ways. You know, I don't really read my emails or my fan mails, like I used to, I just don't, my team does, and they will pick ones that they think I would like you to give it to me. So we funnel it through me a lot more. That's been a huge change. Because I used to find myself well, if you wrote it, I feel like I have to read it.

  KC Davis 29:00

  Oh boy. And I felt like I had to respond. And it had to be a very emotionally laboris response.

  Mercury Stardust 29:06

  I was taking phone calls from people at two o'clock in the morning from Alaska to fix their sinks. That's a real thing I did. Oh my gosh, there was someone who sent me an email the first two months or something being the trans handyman. And she was in the worst way Casey she was panicking about her husband was in the military and she was all along and she's in this like backwards, you know, area and Alaska takes two hours to get this in the nearest store. She had nothing at home besides like baking soda and vinegar. And I spent like literally hours on the phone with her walking her through how to like take care of her clog in her bathroom. She was like so devastated. And I loved it though. I loved that kind of stuff. I thought that was a coolest thing in the world that I got to be that involved in people's life but then it started really shifting and now the bigger I got the As a human, I got to some people. And the tone in the comment sections stopped being about me being a human and sometimes about an entity, like people would either choose to look at the lens of my of only I was a trans person, or people were to look at me like I was like a trans holier than thou entity. And they would either use me as an example to put down other trans people, or they would use me as an example of how all trans people are this one way, and it started shifting. And I was like, I can't do this anymore. I can't be this directly involved in my audience anymore. I can't read every email, I can't comment everything, I can't do it anymore. It was a really hard shift. It's still hard. But sometimes I feel like I'm so far away from my audience now. But it's been for my best mental health I've ever done.

  KC Davis 30:53

  Good for you. Okay, quick break. And then I want to come back and I want to talk about your book. Okay, so you have a book, I have pre ordered it, I am so excited to get it. And it is called Safe and sound. So talk to me first about the title, why safe and sound?

  Mercury Stardust 31:10

  Well, it's safe and sound came because the pushback was they didn't want me to call it a renters friendly Guide to Home Repair. So ironically enough, safe and sound are renters friendly Guide to Home Repair was a way for me to compromise. Because again, they were so afraid of it being just for renters. But as I said, many, many times a focus is not an exclusion. So safe and sound, very much came about wanting to make the audience feel like they're being hugged by the book.

  KC Davis 31:40

  That is exactly how it feels.

  Mercury Stardust 31:42

  Because so much of things in this field are like how to fix your home for Dummies, you know, like drywall repair for Dummies, you know, or painting for idiots. You don't I mean, are Idiots Guide to this, you know, they're insulting you before you even open the book.

  KC Davis 32:01

  No safe and sound is such a perfect title, because it not only tells me that I can leave my apartment safe and sound like, obviously, I can't do certain things because it's not my you know, property. But it also made me feel as though I was going to be safe and sound in your hands like that I was going to be taken care of and I wasn't going to be shamed or made to feel stupid and any of that

  Mercury Stardust 32:25

  so much of the book that after every single chapter in the book, there's something we called an emotional reset. And it's like a paragraph to two to three paragraphs where I am trying to meet people where they're at. And I'm just saying, Hey, I know it's rough. I know it's hard. And if you didn't solve the problem, it's not the end of the world, you're gonna be okay. And I also have a QR video that we put the QR codes in them. And a lot of the book for not just the how tos, but also for the emotional reset. So you can pull the QR code up and you could see me in a video just saying something similar being like, Hey, it's okay. You know, sometimes things are hard and outcome that we wanted, didn't didn't turn out or you did it. And it was really tough. And now you're very tired. So take that break, you know, and that's the thing you don't, the reason why this book existed is again, because when I was starting in this industry, like 1516 years ago, my biggest source of learning how to do this stuff was books. But when I was reading it, I could never understand what they were talking about. I would listen, I would read Bob Villiers books and I loved his books are so detailed, but they were so detailed Casey that it was like, I was like, peeling back an onion that I would never be able to get to the center of I'm like, Well, you mean this thing, this like rubber gasket plastic thing, you know, and they'll have like a specific name a widget, ba, ba ba ba, like, what is the what you do Ba ba ba ba, you know, and they do just be a whole bunch of gatekeeping before I even got to the fix, you know. So when I was given the opportunity to do the book, what I really wanted to do was not focus on terminology, terminology is important and can be great for education. But there's a limit to it. There's a there's only so much new words I can take in in a single sentence. And if I'm going to call something that oh has a weird name to it by the specific name over and over again, you're gonna get confused. So I literally say Jigga thingamajig, like a bunch of this book, because as long as you get it and you can see an image of it and you have an idea of what it does. That's all that that's important. So that's kind of where a lot of the book The sense came from to was. It was kind of like taking my main idea online and just growing it and expanding it into a book.

  KC Davis 34:48

  Oh, I totally get that. I feel like that's exactly what I do with my book. It is genius to have the emotional resets in there. Because that's kind of like what I feel like when it comes to you and me and some other content creators like that's our life. corner of the internet is this idea that like who you are, and the fact that life can be hard, like, you don't have to check that at the door just to get access to some basic information. Like, one of the things that I felt was kind of like radical is that when not when I have zoom meetings with people now, I have really leaned into like, hey, we might have to reschedule. And there might be a kid in the background, and maybe you were sick that day. And maybe because I just realized, like, it's such a patriarchal idea that when we show up for quote, unquote, work, we're supposed to pretend like we have no life outside of that that could possibly be encroaching. And I feel like that's true of all topics and spheres of life, including people might think it's not profound, to allow people to bring their whole struggled self into home repair, but it is,

  Mercury Stardust 35:54

  you know, I'm gonna tell you something that I am just so scared to share on the internet, but I'm gonna say it anyways, my biggest fear in the world is financial stuff. And a few weeks ago, you brought on river nice, and that was like a life changing episode that you did. And that's the thing, there's so many aspects like, even for me, as a gentle di wire, there are so many things that I cannot get out of my own way on sometimes, because there's so much internalized things in the back of my head saying I'm not worthy, you know, and I think that there's the one number one thing that you meet, Revert a so many of us do, is that we are just essentially saying to people, that we are going to meet you where you're at, rather than telling you where you need to be. And that is a huge, the biggest difference. You know, like, when I'm showing people, how do we use toothpaste or a magnet or toothpicks to fix stuff, I'm just saying, Go to your cabinet, and grab what you got. And let's just do what we can, is it going to be perfect, maybe not. But you did something and you tried your best. And that's going to be a whole lot better than doing zero. So I don't know, I wish I could apply the same mentality to every single aspect of my life. But I'm still learning how to lean into my ADHD, I'm still learning how to lean into my insecurities about finances. And I'm really grateful for all our friends, a lot of voters I've never met on the internet, who are also doing the same things that you and I are doing, but in different ways to help bridge that gap for so many of us. All right, tell us about your book tour. My book tour is wildly stupid. It's 52 cities is the largest book tour in America this year. And here's a little tidbit of knowledge for you. The reason why we're doing 52 cities is because a friend of mine said to me that while you know you want to do 20 Some cities, that's quite a bit. I think that's a little like, that's a little hard to do. I don't know if that's gonna be reasonable. And I said, Oh, what will be the most unreasonable number that you could think about? And his response was 5050 would be an absolute crazy thing for you to do. And I was like, Okay, we'll do 52 I literally did this a respite. And if anyone knows me in real life, you'll know that I operate purely on spite. And I thought it'd be coolest thing in the world to travel for two months, and meet as many of my fans as possible and help spread the message that this book tries to give. And that's that everyone's worth the time it takes to learn a new skill. And I really do believe strongly in those words. And I was like, hey, you know what this puts me down in the south, it puts me down in the West Coast and East Coast and all over the place. We're going to so many bookstores, and we're going to almost specifically queer owned independent run bookstores. And that makes me so delighted. And the best part is, I think I'm some of the bookstores are going to let me fix up their bookshelves and fix up their walls and stuff while I'm there. So that's lovely. I'm so stoked about it. I think it's gonna be the funnest trip of my life. And it's going to be two months away. It's gonna be two weeks off, two weeks on two weeks off two weeks on two weeks off, all the way through December and then, right and the last trip is going to be in San Francisco. And me and my spouse are going to spend our five year anniversary in San Francisco for about a week or two. And I am so we're actually going to fly out the whole team. Everyone on staff is going to be flown out to San Francisco to so they can spend the holidays with whatever they want and with us if they want to. It was so grateful for all the love and support we've gotten to make this book tour happen.

  KC Davis 39:49

  Well, let me tell you one of the I haven't obviously read the book yet but so far my favorite thing about the cover is that your blue hair is on the cover because I I remember the video that you made when you first did your hair and talked about how you had always wanted blue hair. But that you just weren't ready to draw that much attention to yourself as this like beautiful trans woman that you are. And I remember that video, I've always remembered that video of yours. And so when I saw the cover, and I saw that, that I was like, This is what she wanted, like, this is exactly how she would have wanted to be on the cover of this book. And I'm so glad that you did.

  Mercury Stardust 40:26

  There's a good story behind that. So the person who did the illustrations on the cover, their name is glitter, hurricane, they're the very first Tiktok her to ever do wet or stitch one of my videos. They years ago, when they first did it, I messaged them and said, Hey, that was the sweetest thing anyone's ever done for me. You know, one day, I'm gonna find a way to how to repay you for that kindness. Because it was one of the very first videos I put me on the map. They like their video went viral about me. And it really started opening up my life in a lot of ways. So when I got an opportunity to have someone illustrating my book, and glitter is in a really wonderful illustrator. I was like, I got an idea. So I really started to glitter and have them do it. And they're their art style is so queer and whimsical, and I love it. But originally, my hair was brown at the time. And we were doing it and then I messaged glitter and said, Hey, I got a surprise for you. That's going to change everything we're doing for the book. And it's a photo of me with my blue heron. But like surprise, can this be in the book now. And we had a deadline, our deadline was like really close to happening. And they only had a couple of weeks to change all the color of all my hair. And then we're like, okay, as a team, I want you all to know that my hair is going to be purple and blue for quite a while. So you better just lean into that. Yeah, it's quite funny. But my hair was before I transitioned, I had blue hair for about 10 years straight. And when I transitioned, I felt like I could no longer have blue hair. Because I felt like like you said, I felt like I was a target more than I already was. And I felt like I had a grow the blue hair out. And then we had my natural brown hair. And I loved my natural hair color. But it was not me. I love the blue. The blue is so much more galaxy and whimsical and, and wild. And I honestly feel like more of myself now after me dyeing my hair, you know than I did before?

  KC Davis 42:32

  Well, mercury, I can't thank you enough for coming on. And I just love you. And I've always admired you and your work. And can you tell people where they can find you if they want to follow you.

  Mercury Stardust 42:43

  They can follow me on anywhere on the internet. Under Mercury startups. I'm on tick tock on Instagram, on threads on YouTube, on Facebook, I'm all over the place, always helping people with their homes in some way, shape, or form. Or you can always find me on Mercury startups.com We'll be making a whole bunch of stuff on there. This year, we'll be able to look at all my how tos on there, eventually, as well.

  KC Davis 43:09

  And they can order the book I know you can get on Amazon. And I'm assuming it's out the independent bookstores as well.

  Mercury Stardust 43:14

  I highly, highly encourage people going to bookshop.org and buying local bookshop. or.org is a wonderful website that helps you find independently owned bookstores across the country. If you're able to go independent, I highly recommend it. But if you're not able to and Amazon is just the easiest for you or Barnes and Noble are great. go that route too. But my book is literally everywhere in the country and no think we've already sold something over like 30,000 copies of the book. And it's only in preorder. So boy, we're spicy. We're just pushing that book out.

  KC Davis 43:48

  Well, congratulations. That's amazing. Well, I love you so much. And I'm so glad you're here and I just I could go on and on. I promise

  Mercury Stardust 43:56

  I could go on and on about you. So I feel like to che

  KC Davis 44:02

  and I will see you at the Blue Willow bookstore when you come to Houston. Oh, I'm

  Mercury Stardust 44:06

  so excited. I cannot I'm gonna give you the biggest hug in the whole world.

  KC Davis 44:09

  Yes, you can see that I really am five two.

  Mercury Stardust 44:13

  You can see that I'm 511 Six one but don't tell the internet

  KC Davis 44:18

  All right, well, those of you guys listening go check out Mercury stardust. Get the book, check out the website and follow on Twitter and we love you all go take care of yourself today.

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Honestly, this is a topic for everyone. Today’s show applies to all of us, whether we are parents, future parents, or someone who needs to heal their inner child. I’m excited to be joined by Rachel Nielson, the host and founder of the 3in30 Podcast. She interviewed me on a recent episode, and she’s returning the favor by joining me for this important conversation. Join us!

Show Highlights:

●  The structure for Rachel’s 3in30 podcast: 3 actionable takeaways in 30 minutes

● Why parenting values are far superior to parenting rules

● Why success in motherhood is most definable by the connection we have with our kids

● What Rachel teaches in her program, Self-Assured Motherhood

● Why there is an opportunity to parent your inner child by identifying your core parenting values

● How you can have different values for different seasons of your life and family

● How Rachel’s program helps women identify and uncover their values by looking inward and outward

● Why our values might be in conflict with each other

● How parenting partners can handle conflict in their individual parenting values

● Takeaways from Rachel about embracing your values, accepting them, and living into them authentically

Resources and Links:

Connect with Rachel Nielson: Website and Podcast

Find Rachel’s list of parenting values: www.3in30podcast.com/values

Mentioned in this episode: The Family Firm by Emily Oster

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello, you sentient balls of stardust, this is struggle care. And I'm your host, Casey Davis. And this is going to be another podcast about parenting. And as always, I encourage you to listen, whether you are a parent or a child. And that's all of us, like all of us have been children at one time. And I do my best to talk about parenting in such a way that if you are a parent, you are getting some really valuable information to us. And if you are an adult child, that you maybe can have an experience of healing your inner child listening to the kind of parenting that you deserved. So I have an awesome guest today, I have Rachel Nielsen, who is the host of the 3 in 30 podcasts that I was on recently. Rachel, hello,

  Rachel Nielson 0:44

  hello, thank you so much for having me.

  KC Davis 0:46

  Absolutely. So tell us a little bit like introduce yourself a little bit, what would you like people to know?

  Rachel Nielson 0:51

  Yeah, so I am a former high school English teacher turned podcaster. And stay at home mom. And from my experience, teaching teenagers how to take big complicated ideas and boil them down into thesis statements. I sort of do that now with parenting topics. So all of my podcasts are three actionable takeaways in 30 minutes, because I know moms don't have a lot of time to listen to parenting resources. A lot of them certainly don't have time to read these big full parenting books that get put out on the market. And so I'm like, I'll just give you the three takeaways make it as actionable and direct as I can. And Casey, everyone loved your episode that you recently did about rethinking housework, and three takeaways for that. And I live in the mountains of Idaho with my two kids, and my dog and my husband, and I love where I live. And I love what I do.

  KC Davis 1:48

  I'm so glad you're here. Because when you reach out to me with your idea for a topic of parenting, according to your values, I was excited about that. Because there's something that I've always said is like, when I became a parent, I had so many ideas about how I was going to raise my kids and I read like every blog there was, right, like I was like, okay, the best way to feed is breastfeeding, and then baby led weaning, and the best way to give birth is ABCDEFG. And the best way to to play is for wooden toys that we rotate out every three, you know, days, that don't do anything electronic. And then No, I'm not going to speak in a baby voice because you're supposed to speak like a normal voice to your kids. And I'm gonna read a lot to them. I mean, we're not going to do any screen time. And then we're gonna go to a Montessori school. And I mean, I just had, it's like any decision that you need to make in parenting, there is a blog out there that exists about the best way to do it. But what I found is that there is no blog that tells you how you're supposed to follow all of those blogs at once. And it was really disillusioning to go through the first few years of parenting and watch myself like, feel incapable of keeping up with all of these commitments about this idealized version of how he was going to be the perfect parent. And that kind of more for me, and this idea of like, I don't need parenting rules, I need parenting values, so that like I can make the decision about what's important right now. Like I realized I had to prioritize things. And the truth is like when I prioritize things, wooden toys and screentime and baby led weaning, like, didn't really ever make it to the top.

  Rachel Nielson 3:33

  Yeah. And you're so right, Casey, that there's no blog out there that captures it all. And also that that can tell you how to parent your unique children with your unique values and contexts that you're coming from as an individual Mother and I have found that my values are what matter the most in how I raise my children, the lens through which I can do the best job for them is by being true to my values and bringing to them who I actually am and what I actually care about, instead of what I think I should care about, or who I think I should be. And that took me a while to figure out to my first few years of parenting, I had oh so many shoulds that and I was miserable, because I wasn't living up to them. And I finally realized that I'm the only person who can give my kids a happy and fulfilled mom. And the way to do that is by being myself within my motherhood and bringing myself to them. And it's made all the difference in my level of fulfillment in day to day life as a mom and also I think, in the success quote, unquote, that I'm able to have as a mom because that is not definable by a set of rules or a standard it's really definable by the connection that I have with my kids. That comes from showing them who I am.

  KC Davis 4:58

  Yeah, I like that. And you know, this idea of values it like sounds really good. But I never got past that point of like, but how do I figure out what my values are? Because I feel like when we ever have that conversation with people, we automatically go to kinda like the fluffy stuff like kindness is a value and honesty is a value in it, right? But I have a feeling that you're gonna help us flush out something a little more actionable than that. Because like, how do I do with my kids toys? If I'm like, kindness is my value, like, I need a better like, kind of rubric to look through to know. And also that, like, whenever we talk about values being like kindness and honesty, like nobody would be like, Well, I think I'm not going to choose kindness as my value. But in reality, like, there's actually a lot of kind of almost morally neutral values. And we don't all have to have the same ones.

  Rachel Nielson 5:47

  Yes, 100%. I feel I teach women in a program called self assured motherhood, we do an entire month about values. And one of the first things that I tell them is that we're talking about the morally neutral values. We're not talking about like whether or not to kill someone, which I'm pretty sure we all agree, is not a good thing. And we all have a value against, we're talking about things like adventure like is that one of your values that is morally neutral, if you really value adventure, and that brings you joy, as a mom, and you want to take your kids on lots of adventures, wonderful. If you don't, and you value routine and stability, that doesn't make you any less of a good mother, you just value different things. So these are morally neutral, they are not tied to religion, or any religious principles. And you're right, Casey, that if you looked at a list of them, you might think, well, these all matter like, you know, kindness matters, and so does honesty and loyalty and productivity, yes, they all matter. And also, some do matter more to you than others. And that's okay. And sometimes it takes a level of self awareness to be able to sort through and sift out and figure out, I'm not saying that kindness doesn't matter to me at all, it does. But what really makes my heart sing is adventure. And so yes, of course, we're going to have like, we're going to be a kind family. But when it comes to prioritizing day to day life and activities, it doesn't resonate with me as much to think about kindness as it does to think about adventure. Whereas another mom might much more resonate with kindness. And she is like consciously thinking about taking our kids to serve the neighbor, or to go and sing Christmas carols at the nursing home or teaching them to be very aware of the people that they're interacting with at the grocery store and making eye contact and chatting with them. Again, not that the other mom is saying, We don't care about being kind, and we're going to be mean to everyone around us. But just that what really kind of gives them that zing of joy and excitement within their day to day life is different, because they have different things that they value.

  KC Davis 8:04

  And I wouldn't even say that's necessarily kindness as the value, it's almost like altruism is the value. You know, and the other thing I love about this, Rachel is that I'm seeing so much potential for me to also parent, my inner child in this like, and there's some conversations that I think are important about, like, we don't want to swing too far in the opposite direction. Like if you had a parent that yelled a lot, and you decide that like, I'm never gonna get angry, like, obviously, you know, we don't and then we just never set any boundaries, because we're afraid to set boundaries or be angry or punish or do any of this like, okay, at the end of the day, we need to be the parent that our kids need, not the parent that we needed. However, this week, when you talked about a spirit of adventure versus a spirit of I want to say like coziness and familiarity, my heart automatically, like leapt at one of those, and I know it came from kind of like a place of woundedness of like, there might have been a little too much chaos in my childhood for me to like, want adventure to be it right. And like I would sort of even like adventure is to me wouldn't just be like, Oh, hiking, it also be like, Oh, we're enrolled in so many sports, that like, every day, we're out of the house, always on the go. And so like that resonated with me where it was like, No, like coziness, and home and meals at home and predictability. I mean, is that part of it? Like, do you see that in parents? I mean, not that I would never tell my kids that can't be adventurous, but that like it's totally okay for me to lean into the one that is going to be more healing and more whole for me.

  Rachel Nielson 9:41

  Yeah, I mean, totally okay for you to do that. And also, I think that it's part of the work of healing your inner child to figure out if what you think is a value is actually a trauma response, and it's something that you want to work to let go of, and it's fine either way. way, you know, so you might say no, really the desire for coziness and stability and routine. It's not just that it makes me feel good because of the trauma from my past, it's that it actually makes me feel connected to who I feel I deeply AM. And that wasn't honored in my past. And so I want to lean into that with my own family versus you do feel a pull to adventure, but you are tamping that down, because everything in you is saying like, no, that's dangerous, you don't want to give your kids an experience that was similar to what you had. So that's more of a trauma response, if that makes sense. And only you can sort of sift that out and figure out what is truly a core value versus what may have become a core value, even though it's not really you because of negative things that happened in your past. And I wish that I could give like a formula for how to figure out the difference. I just think that so many of us are not even aware of the values conversation. And so even just listening to this podcast, some listeners are going to start looking for and thinking about their values in a different way. And it's a lifelong exercise in getting to know yourself and thinking, you know, I always thought that I really valued this. But I think that's actually because of hard things that happened to me in my past. And now that I've healed to a certain level, I want to start experiencing and experimenting with other ways of living. And I may come back to the thing and see it really was one of my core values all along. And it wasn't just a trauma response, or I may be ready to embrace something different that I previously had not realized was one of my core values, because it had been so buried by all of the hard stuff in my past, if that makes sense.

  KC Davis 11:50

  Totally. And I think I'm gonna we're gonna get into like some more specifics on how we kind of dig in. But I have kind of two thoughts as we're talking now. One is, I read Emily Foster's book, the family firm. And she talked a little bit about this concept, but just not the one example always stuck with me. She talks about how, you know, they have family dinner every night. And I think that what our society has done with the idea of family dinner is very much like over moralized it like it is the only right thing to do. And it's has all these benefits. And you know, if you don't do it XYZ, and I just really finally figured out that like just because something has benefits, doesn't mean that your child is going to be harmed if they don't get it. Mm hmm. Like, yes, there are benefits to having family dinner, and she decided that that was a value for her over, like being enrolled in extracurriculars. But extracurriculars also have value and like it would be perfectly okay for a family to say actually, like we value, what's it called, like team sports and being a part of a team and commitment and follow through, and discipline and hard work. And we can do all that obviously, with kindness, or you could do it with, you know, competition. But the idea is kind of mind blowing that when you're looking at a choice, that it may not be what does a good parent do? And what does a bad parent do? It might be? Here's a really good thing. And here's another good thing, and I can't have them or do them both at the same time, at least right now. And that I get to pick whichever one is sort of calling to me. The second thing I thought was, Do you think there's also room for like, having different values at different seasons? Like if I pick adventure? Am I stuck with that forever?

  Rachel Nielson 13:35

  No, absolutely not. I tell women in my program, I'm not saying I'm saying Try these values on so I have them actually identify, go through an activity, which we can talk a little bit about, because I would love to give your listeners some concrete takeaways for how to find their values. So I have them do that. And I tell them, you know, come up with five, and you're trying them on. And this is not going on your tombstone. So try it out for a while. And often we'll find that like, actually, the word kindness doesn't resonate. It's more compassion. And there's such a subtle difference there. But it's the word that resonates in your soul. That means something different to you or Casey, you've mentioned, like, that sounds more like altruism, like someone might think, oh, yeah, it's more altruism than kindness. But you have to start with a framework of identifying a few values and trying them on and then you sort of shift and change. And you may find that in a few years when your kids are in a different phase, that you do uncover a different value and that things sort of shift and change and that's totally okay.

  KC Davis 14:41

  Okay, let's take a short break for a sponsor, who we are very grateful for, and we're grateful for all of our sponsors, and we will come back. Okay, so we're back with Rachel and we're talking about how would I go about like, what if I'm listening to this and I'm thinking like, Wait, this seems like such a much better way of of parenting and frankly, like as you're talking I'm like this is just a better way of living? Yes, yes. Like, because it's not just parents who are stuck in this, like, you know, optimize everything all the time make every right parenting decision or you're a piece of shit. Like, I feel like humans in general, a lot of us are stuck in that place of how do we decide this job? Or this job? Or how do we decide to go here? Or go there? Or what do we do? How do we decide what our values are? If we want to move past the sort of fluffy, ambiguous stuff?

  Rachel Nielson 15:28

  Mm hmm. Yeah, for sure. So I mentioned that I have a an exercise I have women in my program do and I've actually made that available for your listeners, if they want, they can download it is the exact exercise I lead women through. And I'll put that at three and 30 podcast.com/values. So you can go and pull it up. And the first half of it is sort of brain storming, freewrite questions about what you loved as a child? And what made you come alive? And what sort of made your heart sing, I asked a question in there about, have you ever been involved in a group project or a job? Something that like you felt incredibly fulfilled doing it? And can you identify what it was about that particular project or role that really fit you? And so you go through these kind of brainstorm questions, and you try to pull out some themes of words that can capture, you know, and bring together the common threads between your answers to these different questions. So you're really looking inward, to try to figure out because your values have been with you your whole life, whether or not you were aware of them. So it's more of an uncovering than like a deciding on what your values are. Like, if I were told to decide what I wanted my values to be, it might be a different list, then truly getting honest with myself about, but who am I and who have I always been, and what has been important to me. I remember, as a child, middle schooler, noticing the kids that sat alone at lunch, and really worrying for them and trying to sometimes I'd actually, when I was at my best, I would actually go and sit with them and make an effort. Other times, I wasn't at my best, I wasn't confident enough to do that. But I noticed them. And now in my adulthood, I realize that that's a little unusual for a child that young to be noticing people like that. And that's something that I kind of wrote down in my brainstorm of, I've always just had a tender heart for the people who maybe are on the margins. And that is a sign that one of my values has something to do with compassion, kindness, service, like the divinity of other people inclusion, yes. And so I can play with those words a little bit. But recalling those specifics from my childhood helps me to get there. And so that's the first half of the exercise is really looking inward and seeing what you can uncover about yourself for yourself.

  KC Davis 18:03

  Well, before you do the second half, I want to play around with this for a second. So when you said that my thought immediately went to Thanksgiving, growing up, every Thanksgiving, I would go see my family that lived like a state away. And I had a cousin that was my age. And we had a bunch of older cousins, and my mom had two sisters and a brother and both of her parents and literally like everyone came. And we would sit around and play dominoes and eat Thanksgiving food. And it was like that was literally every Thanksgiving up until I was probably 16. And for some reason, that's right, where my mind goes. So if that if that's where my mind goes when you said like, think about something in your childhood that kind of like you enjoyed or made you feel alive, or has that comfort, like, how would I tease a value from that?

  Rachel Nielson 18:52

  Mm hmm. Well, I think I mean, I can just throw out a bunch of different words that you could try on sort of based around that like, to me it feels like family, connection, togetherness, coziness, which you already mentioned, traditions, I don't know. But those are some of the words that come to mind. For me, that can be teased from the fact that those times with your family meant so much to you, there's a value there. Can you think of any other words based on that? On your experience?

  KC Davis 19:26

  I think maybe the word community comes to mind because definitely family like that's part of it. But it kind of extends a little more than that, that that community of just like right where you fit in where there's people around and everything is kind of easy, like nothing is pretense if that makes sense. Like it's not always easy, but that idea of kind of just being surrounded by people.

  Rachel Nielson 19:51

  Yeah. And you just said there were nothing's pretend. So maybe from that you tease out like authenticity is very important to you feeling known and know seeing and loving the people around you in a deep, intimate way that's not fake is very important to you. So you and it's super helpful to talk this out. So to do this with a friend, or someone who knows you well, or a sister or a therapist, and say, you know, ask them say, this is the moment that stands out to me, what threads or themes do you see? And then when they give you some ideas, you always have to come back to yourself and say, nobody else can tell you what your values are, you have to be able to say what words resonate and give me that little zing inside. I sometimes think about Marie Kondo, who did the life changing Magic of Tidying Up and she'd say, when you hold your possessions, they should give you a little like King mark of joy. Yeah, spark joy. And that's how it should be with these values of like, hold these different words, kind of metaphorically. And ask yourself, does it give me a little zing, a little spark of joy? If so, then there's something there that I can explore as value.

  KC Davis 20:59

  You know, what's kind of wild is that you mentioned earlier, you know, these aren't necessarily like, we can look back and realize these have always been our values. And I'm already realizing the things that I've done as a person. And as a parent, according to that value. I mean, like, literally, we ended up moving to a different city for my husband's job. And like, pretty quickly realized, like, Oh, I'm not thriving here. And we talked about moving back where family was, but that kind of came in conflict with some other values that we had about where we were and why. And we ended up moving to a suburb, and specifically to live two miles from a good friend of mine, who was like, come here, live near me, we will be community with each other. And then shortly after that, actually talked to my mother about moving down, and she moved down. And we found we went and found a home for her, and helped her through the process of moving, she now lives 10 minutes from me, I see her multiple times a week, like my friend just stopped by to get my vacuum cleaner to try it. And like we sent our kids to school based on the idea that we could know our neighbors. And I'm like, oh, like, okay, so that makes sense on a big picture scale, right about like making those decisions. But, you know, even earlier when I was like, How do I decide what to do about the toys? Like, how would I decide how community applies to our toys? You know what I mean?

  Rachel Nielson 22:24

  Yeah, well, I love that you were just able to parse out how the memory from your childhood connects to the things you love in your current life, that's beautiful to hear how it all connects together. And I think that not every value is going to apply to every situation like Could your value for community connect back to what you do with the toys in your home, maybe, maybe you decide like, Oh, we're gonna have, you know, I'm keeping all these toys, like I'm keeping more toys than maybe another mom would, because I love to have my kids have their friends here. And to have lots of toys available so that it feels like a community place where people can gather. And that's why you know, my physical things reflect the center value. And also, maybe your value for community has nothing to do with your toys, and you decide to get rid of a bunch of them, because you also have a value for simplicity and order. And that's okay, too. And sometimes our values do get, they do sort of contradict each other. And that's when it gets tough. Like when women say to me, I have a value of connection. But I also have a value of productivity, or I have a value of connection. But I also have a value of order. And so my kids want me to play with them. And my connect my value towards connection says you should do that a good mom would do that. But I'm like dying over the messy kitchen. And my value of order says I desperately want to clean this up right now. And again, I wish there was like a magic formula I could give you of how to decide which value wins out in that moment. But I think it's a constant, give and take. And you just have to say like, right now, I am prioritizing connection. And order can wait. Or right now I'm going to clean my kitchen because I recognize we spent all morning together at the library or whatever. And that value has been fulfilled. And it's okay for me to lean into this other value without feeling guilty about it.

  KC Davis 24:27

  Yeah, I mean, as long as you're picking both right, like not that you can't pick them at the same time, but you could certainly have them in the same season. Yes. And get the benefits of both and even get the benefits of not choosing the other one from time. Like saying no to playing is good for you and your kids. Yeah, it wouldn't be good if that was all you ever said. And you know, saying no to the kitchen is good for you and your kids, but it wouldn't be good if you always said no to it.

  Rachel Nielson 24:52

  Mm hmm. Yeah. And again, just having the words and the understanding around values. I feel like gives you So much more self compassion and ability to coach yourself. It's a win win situation. Yeah. And to say to yourself, this is hard for you, Rachel. And I do I kind of have this like inner voice that talks to me and is this compassionate cheerleader. And it kind of talks to me in the third person, and says, this is hard for you, Rachel, because you really value order, but you also really value connection, and your best friend needs you right now. And so you do not have to feel bad about leaving your house in disarray, because you are following another value. And so it just gives you this sort of like, way to comfort yourself and cheer yourself on. So you're not shaming yourself for the things you're not able to accomplish at every moment of the day.

  KC Davis 25:40

  Let me tell you that I value rest, and sleep. Yes, I don't mean in like a, you know, a ha weight. I mean, in like a legitimate there are major decisions that I have made around valuing rest and sleep. And it's a big value to me because of how connected it is to my mental health, of how connected it is, to my physical health of how connected is to My psychological health, and just the acknowledgement of like, that's one of the biggest ways that I, as a mother choose myself. Mm, yeah, amidst sort of the chaos of parenting. And I mean, major decisions that people might not agree with. And I sleep, train my children, I am one of the biggest kind of attachment parenting people, and they're always so surprised to hear that I sleep train my children. Because the value of sleep one,

  Rachel Nielson 26:28

  yes. And the value of rest, I actually have never considered the word rest as a value until just now when you said it. And I think that's a beautiful value to hold. Like, think of all the different ways that rest can manifest itself in your whole life, not just talking about sleep, but in your in the way you set up your home, and the way you engage in your relationships, where people feel very at ease with you, they feel restful in your presence, because of what you bring to their life. You know, I think that's an incredibly unique value that you could bring into so many areas of your life, and that it sort of takes a big level of self acceptance in our productivity obsessed culture, you know, to say, actually, I don't value productivity, I value rest. And that is not a moral failing. That is an incredibly beautiful thing that I bring to my life and the lives of other people.

  KC Davis 27:22

  Wow. Yeah, because I do and have fun. You know, we talking earlier about you know, nobody prepares you how to parent your own children. And the truth is, is like my kids, they came and I was like, oh, no, your people, you're not ideas or blank slates, like you are people with your own brains and personalities. And, you know, I wasn't expecting to have neurodivergent kids, but here we are. And, you know, I have been doing for some time now, what I refer to what others refer to as low demand parenting. We don't have a lot of rules in our house. I mean, obviously, safety is important. And we do believe that boundaries are important. And you know, because I value Sleep, my kids actually go to bed at 730 Every night and will for a long time and rest, right? So that's value for them and me because I need that time as well. So I don't want to sound like you know, nobody, there's no structure in our home. But if I can say yes, I do, right, I don't care where you eat, I don't care what you're wearing, I don't care if you color on yourself, I don't really mind for color on the wall, right? Like, I'll tell you which wall to color on. But I'm now realizing that that is connected to probably a lot of values, but is connected to rest. Yeah, everyone just rests like it's just a restful place.

  Rachel Nielson 28:33

  And when you are tied into your values, when you are clued into your unique values, I feel like you are less judgmental of other people, which is a beautiful way to live. You can look at other moms and say they value something different than I do and I don't need to judge them or downplay that. I also don't need to judge myself. You know, I, you mentioned sleep training. I have had a whole conversation with a young mom that I love who's gone back and forth on whether or not to sleep train her baby and I've just said to her look, what do you love about motherhood, if you love you know co sleeping and having her with you and not you know, you do not have to sleep train your baby. But if you are miserable and unable to function during the day, because of the co sleeping you can sleep train your baby and it's she will be okay she will be okay either way, as long as she has a mom who is honoring herself and her needs as well as honoring her baby at the same time. And building a home life where the mom is happy and at ease or at least as happy as she can be. You're never going to be perfectly happy as a mom or a human. Because life is hard and there's hormones and postpartum depression and everything else. But you it's okay to build a family life around what you need and value as a mom and it could look totally different than another mom and you don't need to judge that other mom for the way she does it.

  KC Davis 30:00

  Okay, let's take another break to hear from a sponsor, we'll come right back. Okay, so you were going to tell us what the second step is?

  Rachel Nielson 30:07

  Yes, yes. So in the first part of my exercise, you're looking inward to see what you can, you know, tease out about your values in the second part, you can look outward and start looking at lists of potential values. So I actually have a list of 100 values on this worksheet. And you can either just go through the list and circle instar. Or if you are more of a hands on learner, you can actually cut them out. So they're little slips of paper, and then you sort of sort them. And you can sort them any way that you want. But the way that I often tell women to do it is to make three piles. One is not that important to me, one is important to me, and the other is most important to me. And so you take these words, and you put them in the three piles. And again, I remind women that you know, the pile that you're basically tossing out, you're not saying is not important to me at all, you're just saying is not as as important to me

  KC Davis 31:07

  wouldn't win in a cage match with a different value? Yes, exactly. I

  Rachel Nielson 31:10

  see, you're not saying like that you don't value health at all, if you put that in the category, but maybe that's just not one of your top values or priorities, and you don't build your life around, you know, your physical health, like some other people do. My husband is incredibly active and loves to, you know, eat lots of vegetables, and he has a different level of value around health than I do. And that's okay, like that would never be in my pile of top values. And it would be in his and that's okay.

  KC Davis 31:40

  You know, what's crazy about that is that I don't think it is for me either. And I've always felt really a lot of shame about that, because I know that like, I'm setting the stage for my kids and their health. But one of the things that I've never ways that I've never thought about it that I'm realizing and talking to you is that it isn't that I don't prioritize health, it's that I don't prioritize it above other values that are more important to me. But that's only in instances where health intersects with a different value. Like, if it's I'm going to puree, you know, the most organic, nutrient packed homemade baby food. I'm not going to do that, because I value rest. But rest is not always in the picture. When I'm deciding, do I grab this donut? Or do I grab these carrots? Like they're both right there, like I do multiple times a day make the decision? Hey, let's grab the carrots. And I mean, I'm not to say that doughnuts are not healthy. I'm just saying like in terms of, okay, am I going to feed them doughnuts all day? Or, you know, Hey, it's 100 degrees outside. So I'm not going to go outside and walk when my kids asked you because I'm not doing it. I don't know what but like, when it's 70 degrees outside, and they want to take a walk. I'm for it. And now and I feel like yes, let's do it. Let's get outside today. And oh my gosh, Rachel, the self compassion that just released inside of me realizing that I don't ignore health? Yes, I just I choose it in situations where it does not conflict with other values that are more important.

  Rachel Nielson 33:14

  Yes. Isn't it amazing the self compassion that it brings, as well as the compassion for other people that it brings the clarity that it brings? It's brought for me in parenting, like in co parenting with my husband, so much clarity around? Why is he so like adamant with them about certain things that I don't think are that important? where there might be conflict between us? Once I started thinking more about values, and I actually had my husband do this activity that I do with the women in my program. And once I knew what his values are, I could see like, oh, this really matters to him. That, you know, one example is that he really values he played tons of team sports growing up he but because he values, health and activity and all those things, and my son is not into it. And I was always like, why is he pressuring Noah to join these teams that Noah doesn't want to join? So then I had a conversation with Ryan and said, What's the values underneath that? And he said, Well, I want him to be active and move his body. I want him to build friendships and learn about teamwork. So we kind of identified the values underneath and I said, Okay, our son doesn't want to be in team sports. But I can tell that these values really matter to you. And they matter to me too. So what are some different ways that we can honor who our son is, and also bring these values in, and we came up with a plan and we brought my son and he's 12. So he has can have a lot of say in his life now. And we brainstorm together ways that he could work with a team. And so like joining the Lego team at at the middle school, the engineering team, and that he could move his body by riding his bike at the pump track and So we're meeting the values, while also diffusing the tension around specific activities that we sometimes as parents can get. So, like, caused so much conflict in our family, when really it's just a values issue underneath it.

  KC Davis 35:14

  Wow, Rachel, that is incredible. Because how many times do we do that we push our kids to do something. Because we know that there are benefits that we feel like are really important. But if we don't stop to realize, okay, it's not the soccer. Yeah, in and of itself, right. You know, it's the value underneath and like if your value and because as soon as you said that, where you said, as a team moving your body, I was like, well, theater does that,

  Rachel Nielson 35:38

  yes, so many different things can do that.

  KC Davis 35:42

  That's wild, it's, it reminds me of a conversation, I had my husband one time, he was a part of a fraternity and you know, fraternities have come under some hot water. And many, many years after he was gone from college, his own fraternity kind of gotten in trouble. And he was talking about, like, feeling those mixed emotions of, hey, I'm glad that like, things are changing, and things are going to be safer for women. And that, like parts of that culture are getting kind of snuffed out, like the dangerous parts of that culture and the gross misogynist parts of that culture. But I still find myself sad, because there were so many things that I valued that I got in that, you know, the feeling of brotherhood, the feeling of having someone to come home to the feeling of tradition, the feeling of sort of friends that are friends forever. And it was similar to that conversation, where it's like, okay, we can value those things. But when we identify what the values are, we can much more easily let go of things that might have kind of a net negative and go well, how can I find these values elsewhere?

  Rachel Nielson 36:46

  Yes, absolutely. And it can become such a connective activity for you and a partner to talk about it diffuses tension when you start talking about what's underneath the deeper person, why does this matter to you why, let's talk about it. And then you're then you know each other, it's intimate to know each other better. And then you're like, let's figure out together how to build our family life around these things that matter to both of us. And let's figure out what our shared values are and where we differ and respect that about each other and build a life around with an awareness of values underneath it.

  KC Davis 37:22

  Gosh, Rachel, I just think about how many parents are burning out because they are attempting to have every single value and the number one spot? Yes. Okay, we're gonna wind down a little bit. But I wanted to share with you something that I think is kind of funny, I heard someone say one time, you know that they don't have family rules, they have family values. And it was somewhat similar to this conversation. But they kind of said, you know, we have these four family values. And whenever my kids is they're getting older, like want to do something, you know, we don't have a rule about what time you need to be home or what things you're allowed to do. But we go to the family values and make the decision based on that. And so kind of similar to what you're talking about. But what was funny about it was I had just seen a tweet by this very bizarre there's this really funny account on Twitter called time scanner, and they sometimes tweet the most random things. And this was the tweet it said, be a Kermit the Frog, have a creative vision and no ego. Recognize the unique talents of those around you attract weirdos, manage chaos, show kindness Be sincere. And ever since I read that, for some reason, it is just stuck in my brain where I was like, that's what I want my family to be about. Those are the values attract weirdos, manage chaos, show kindness be sincere Hmm, that's beautiful. And anyways, I just wanted to share that with everybody because I was like, never has like a four sentences summed up what I care about about life before.

  Rachel Nielson 38:49

  Yeah, it like gave you that little zing in your heart. That's when you know, this resonates these are my values and like you could put that on your wall or frame it and put it in your kids rooms and, and talk about it a lot that we are a Kermit the Frog family. And this is what we value.

  KC Davis 39:04

  So Rachel, what do you want our listeners to know as they log off today,

  Rachel Nielson 39:09

  I want the listeners to know that whatever your values are, are good. And okay. And the more that you embrace the things that innately matter to you and start accepting who you actually are, instead of who you think you should be. The not only the more happy and fulfilled you will feel but the world will be blessed by it by you bringing who you actually are and owning it to the world. Whether that's just in your home or it's in your workplace. It's in the larger world and community. All of us will be blessed when we become more aware of our values, and we accept them and live into them.

  KC Davis 39:48

  I love that. Well Rachel, thank you so much. We will link that website that you mentioned earlier in the show notes for everyone. And I wish everyone a great day take care of yourselves and toodaloo

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Do you have too much stuff? As you look around your home, is it crowded and cluttered? Does your space make you feel burdened, unhappy, and frustrated? If you said–or shouted–YES, you can’t miss today’s show. Join me to learn more about gentle organizing. 

Alison Lush is a Certified Professional Organizer, Certified Virtual Organizer, and Master Trainer. After a 20-year catering career, Alison knew she needed better organization and management skills for her home and personal comfort. She learned to live and shop intentionally, creating and protecting the space in her home. Now she puts her expertise to work in helping others by empowering them and teaching them to put themselves at the center of their organization efforts. 

Show Highlights:

• How Alison became an organizer with a gentle spirit

• Why our interactions with our home, space, time, and belongings form the foundations of our lives

• Why Alison’s focus is on “organic organizing”

• Alison’s answer to a question sent in by Samantha about dealing with clutter, letting things go, and the functionality of her space

• How to organize your space by using Zone 1, Zone 2, and Zone 3—and consider the frequency of access for each item

• Ways to keep, honor, and display memorabilia by identifying the risk level in letting items go

• How to consider the purpose of items in our lives in deciding to keep them or let them go

• Alison’s answer to a question from Kitty about decorating, a sense of style, and learning to feel good about her space

• How to reframe what might look crappy and rundown to you as a life well-lived, meaningful, and full of love

• Why your decor should fuel you and recharge your batteries

• Alison’s answer to a question from Aria about separating and managing work life and home life

• How to legitimize, categorize, and systemize your space for the best functionality

• Why the professional organizing industry has the reputation of telling people to “just get rid of your stuff”

Resources:

Connect with Alison: www.alisonlush.ca and TikTok   

Connect with KC: TikTok and Instagram

Get KC's Book, How to Keep House While Drowning

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello sentient ball of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, KC Davis. And I'm taking a break this August, but I'm replaying for years some of my most downloaded episodes. And today we're going to talk about professional organizing. Doesn't it feel like something that only really rich people who have their life together do? Well, it's not. And I want to talk today about that with Allison lash. Since 2010, she has been studying everything related to how we manage our belongings, ideas about what we need acquisition, ownership, organization, lifestyle habits, decision making emotional attachments, and letting go. She is a professional organizer that certified in chronic disorganization, she brings a person centered approach to organizing, and it's really a different take on organizing than I've ever heard before. So if you're someone who struggles in your home, and you really wish that you could be a little more organized, but you need a gentle approach, this is for you, grab a drink of water, take your meds and take care of yourself. Well, I can't tell you how excited I am to have you on today. Because when I started my tic toc channel and I started talking about you know, cleaning being morally neutral and having your home serve you and not the other way around. I remember stumbling on your content, and being like, oh shit, she gets it like this is someone who I could totally see, I would invite her in to organize my home and you just had such a kind and gentle presence. And I feel like that is not something that I see a lot in organizers like usually you think of, you know, Personal Organizer, or professional organizer as someone who is like, let's get it. Let's go. You know, we're going to organize these books into rainbow color. And you but you just had such a different presence. And I wondered if you could talk just a minute about you know, how did you get that way?

  Alison Lush 1:52

  Well, I have to start by saying I'm going to take a little pause here and say I'm absolutely thrilled to be here. I am a massive big fan of yours. And I send everybody to your page, I say if you're following me, you have to be following KC. She is the bom b. There's it's amazing of the voice that you've created in the platform you've created. And I'm so grateful for your presence on social media, because people obviously need to hear what you are saying. And you add weight and volume to what I'm saying. So I want to say thank you and congratulations, just need to get it's really important to honor what you've done. It's tremendous amount of work. So oh well, it's all very true. I'm so thrilled that we found each other how did I get to where I am the short story because people can read a little bit about my background on my website, I don't let's not waste time getting into that I fell into the world of professional organizing. And I landed quite quickly in 2010 in a school, a professional school for professional organizers called the Institute for challenging disorganization. And I just felt comfortable there that's like those people, they just resonated with me in the way that they were talking. It's like I wanted to buddy up with them. And I wanted to invite them into my home, the vibe was just like all about where I felt comfortable. And the way I describe it today, my industry is that there's a spectrum. And on one end of the spectrum are people like me, and on the other end of the spectrum are people who are mad crazy about organizing the stuff. And there is nothing wrong with that. Because there are clients who want that there are clients, that's all they want come and make my house pretty. And that's what I want. And because that's a it's an open market, and there's people who need that the fact that organizers specialize in that more power to them. But there's this other end of the spectrum where what I'm focusing on is people, I'm not really very concerned about the books and about the boxes, and about the cups and all that stuff. What I'm concerned about is the person and how they feel in their home. Does the person feel okay in their home? Do they feel comfortable in their home? Do they feel functional in their home, because if we don't feel good in our home, that launches us for the whole rest of our life. And it impacts on how we can accomplish whatever it is we want to accomplish in our lives. Whether we're a full time parent or working full time, or volunteering, or we're retired and just wanting to have you know, spend time doing record doesn't matter what we're trying to do in our life, our home, and the way we interact with our home and our belongings and our stuff and our space and our time. The way we manage that is our foundation for the rest of our life. So the better we manage those things, the better able we are to accomplish our goals in life, which is what is the target?

  KC Davis 4:32

  I feel like that's where you and I really resonated with each other was that we're both focusing on a person's relationship to their space, right, not just their performance in their space or the aesthetics of their space, but that the real work and the real reward is the relationship to their space.

  Alison Lush 4:53

  And the measure that I use to identify where are the issues is literally how do you feel like I see the way your desk is you showed me a picture of your desk? I don't have any judgment about that. I don't care if it's piled up to the ceiling. My question is, how do you feel about your desk? If you feel fine about your desk, and it's working for you, let's talk about something else. If you're unhappy about your desk, and it's causing you problems, do you want to talk about it? Do you want to talk about it? Because even if it's a problem for the person, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're ready or willing or able to deal with it?

  KC Davis 5:26

  Yes. And if you push that, they're more likely to kind of go to this protective space, where they're not going to be honest, are not going to be open, they're not going to call you back for the second session. And, you know, what you're describing about, you know, does it bother you is similar to when I talk about, you know, does it work, that's all it does it function. And that changes over a lifetime to because I'm someone who has almost always function just fine with clothes strewn about the floor, and dishes being done every three days. And you know, nothing really having a a formal organization. But I always kind of knew where everything was, that worked. For me for most of my life, it really wasn't until I had my second kid, that all of a sudden, those sort of pseudo systems began to sort of grown under the weight of the extra family labor. And that's when you know, my platform launched was me going, Oh, my God, I have to go back to the drawing board. Like I have to figure out some new ways existing in this space, because things that were working are now not working.

  Alison Lush 6:26

  The way that that shows up in my work is what I say to people is organizing should be organic. Our lives are changing all the time, the things that we own are changing all the time, our interests, and habits and lifestyle and daily routines are changing all the time. And so if we focus on the stuff in the space, we're only dealing with today's problem, what about next year, what about two years from now, so what I try to focus on is the human being and their understanding of themselves because they carry themselves in where whatever situation they're in whatever time they're in, whatever needs they're in, they carry themselves. So if they can focus on their own understanding and their skills, they carry that wherever they go, and it empowers them to be able to face whatever challenges they have in the future. I don't want people hiring me now to organize their cupboard. And then for them to have to organize hire me again next year, when they change what's in the cupboard. I want them to be able to organize their cupboard next year.

  KC Davis 7:20

  Yes, that's awesome. Okay, I feel like we could talk forever. But I really want to get into some of these questions. Because I've had people writing in, and I picked out a few that I felt like it'd be really good for us to talk about, and here we go. So this is from Samantha, and she says, I grew up moving around. And I have a lot of emotional issues and shame around resisting getting rid of stuff and decluttering. But I also have ADHD, and I feel overwhelmed by the clutter and an effects by functionality, any tips, both in terms of practicality, so ways to make it easier to let go of things I need to let go of. And in terms of philosophy, your mess is morally neutral mantra has already been such a difference. So I love this question. I feel like this is right up your alley. And I would love to hear your thoughts.

  Alison Lush 8:04

  It touches on a couple of really big issues. What is the meaning of our stuff? How does our physical stuff from our past add value to our life today? So there's our memorabilia type stuff. And then there's the stuff we're actually using today? And how do they actually live in our physical space. I encourage people to develop a personalized environment so that they have what they need. So if they need it in front of their face, it's in front of their face, if they need peace and quiet in front of their face. That's what they have. So it I encourage everybody to look inside pay attention to how you respond to your space. Does it help you and make you feel calmer? When you can see all your stuff? Or does it make you feel calmer when you can't see all your stuff? For example, that's the first thing are you hypo visually sensitive or hyper visually sensitive. And the same thing with space and with touch, if we can pay attention to how we react physically, personally to everything around us, we gather information that helps us therefore create personalized solutions. So that's one element. Second of all, the ADHD thing is a whole package unto itself. And there are so many specialists who talk specifically about ADHD, I talk about it a little bit on my platform, but not because there's so many people out there who that's all they talk about, I tend to defer to them. It is a personal path. And it's real. And it affects the way that a person interacts with their space and their time and their focus and their attention. And learning about yourself is the number one powerhouse thing that you can do and it will change over time. So this year, whatever you learn about yourself and your ADHD, it could be different six months from now or two years from now be ready for paying attention to change.

  KC Davis 9:45

  So she says she grew up moving around and that gave her a lot of emotional issues about getting rid of things.

  Alison Lush 9:51

  Right. So that's an issue that is like a really big topic of conversation on my page because I hear and I see people and the issue of shame and expectations and judgment. And I think that our society in general does us a tremendous disservice by setting up this notion that life is supposed to be like anything specific. It's supposed to be like this for all of us. I reject that. And I encourage everybody to reject that. I don't think it helps us, I think what helps us is to figure out what works for us. So when people come to me, and they say, I have all of this stuff, and I don't know if I should be keeping it or not, I ask them digging it, we delve down, we dig down and ask questions about what value is it adding to your life isn't actually adding value to your life? That's really super important. The second question is, what is it costing you? Does it cost you anxiety and stress every single month that you've got those 12 boxes of memorabilia sitting there? Or are they just sitting there and they're not bothering you at all? So the more we can get clear about the costs of holding the stuff and the benefits of owning the stuff, the more it helps massage us towards finding our own personal answer of just to what extent it's problematic to be owning that stuff. Because we, I do not believe that we should be allowing other people to be pressuring us to get rid of our stuff. That's not an answer, that's helpful. It's just not,

  KC Davis 11:16

  I kind of love where you're going with this, because that's where I always start with people too. Because we do have these sort of external ideas. You know, like, minimalism is really big right now. And people talking about, you know, you just you have to have a peaceful space, but they're sort of saying that the only way to have a peaceful space is to have a minimalist space. And so I do think there are people out there thinking, Oh, I've got to declutter, I've got to declutter. But you know, if you jump right to teaching them how to declutter, you can sometimes miss what you're talking about, which is, is this even a problem? Exactly. Some people love to have their stuff around them, some people have a peaceful place. So I want to give kudos to Samantha because she was able to say that she feels overwhelmed. And it affects her functionality. So she's kind of got that piece. But But you're so right. And that's why I really want to encourage people to always start with the functionality like is it working? Is it even a problem that you don't ever called your laundry? Is it even a problem that you do your dishes every three days? Is it really affecting you? Or are you going off of some external messaging about how your house should run

  Alison Lush 12:23

  100% could not agree more.

  KC Davis 12:25

  So if Samantha says to you, you ask her these questions, she says, Yes, it is actually a problem, it actually affects my functioning. And I would like to get rid of some of these things. But I don't even know where to start.

  Alison Lush 12:36

  It depends on what kinds of things we're talking about. One of the cores, elements of the work that I do with clients is I talk about Zone One, two, and three. And I find that this is a concept that is almost universally helpful for people to think about, I talked about in terms of the human being as being zone one, anything I can reach with my arms from wherever I am. So right now I'm sitting at my desk, anything I can reach with my arms without getting out of my chair, that's zone one space. And for my functioning, I should be prioritizing only things in my zone, one space that are contributing to whatever it is I'm trying to accomplish in this space. What however, I define that for myself, it's up to me, so only things that are contributing to what I'm trying to achieve here. Same thing at the kitchen counter, when you're standing at the kitchen counter, what are you trying to accomplish? Most people at the kitchen counter most people and I don't even make any assumptions about that. Most people at the kitchen counter are trying to either make food or clean up most of the time. So if that's the case, the only things that should be right there in that space is only one space prime real estate should be the things that are contributing to making the meals or cleaning up, if that's what you've just defined your use of that space. Right? Some people might do their podcast on their kitchen counter, and therefore it's a completely different conversation. Every person has to decide for themselves. So that's zone one. And we're going to start with one right always, because you start with the human being the human being is the center of the story. That's the thing that's kind of like the core of my philosophy. Because we typically start in our society with starting with the stuff, where does the stuff need to be? I flip that on its head? What does the human need?

  KC Davis 14:13

  Because I feel like a lot of people would start with the attic or the garage, right? The place where things are piling up, or oh, I have this extra bedroom and there's we just throw everything in there. I feel like that's where a lot of people think they're supposed to start because that's what they would say is the quote unquote, problem area. But you're saying no, it's how are you functioning in your home? And so if I'm sitting at my desk, what do I do at my desk? If I'm at my kitchen counter? What am I doing here? If I'm in my playroom, what are we doing there? I love that, okay, what's on two

  Alison Lush 14:42

  That's zone one. And in order to help us keep zone one, purified and functioning and minimalists so that we have just the things that we need, whatever that means, and it could even mean memorabilia. I'm not saying you shouldn't keep pictures of your family on your desk, if that contributes to you feeling good as you're sitting at your desk. Trying to get whatever it is you're trying to get done, then that's perfectly valuable. Every person decides for themselves what they need. That's like rule number one, every person decides for themselves. So zone two is the space that like, I have to get up from my chair and walk across the room to get to that zone two storage, it's totally easy to get to. But I wouldn't want to have to stand up 25 times a day and go to my zone to to get something that I need 25 times a day. So it's frequency of access decides what should be in Zone One. And what should be in Zone Two, Zone Two, it's hugely valuable storage space, but it's across the room, I have to get up from my chair.

  KC Davis 15:35

  So this is why I intuitively keep my vacuum cleaner out in my kitchen, because I have small children,

  Alison Lush 15:43

  And you reach for it 50 times a day,

  KC Davis 15:45

  50 times a day, right? I had it in the closet, I was trying to make it a zone two. And you know what, for most of my life, it was a zone to object. But then my life season changed. And now it's a zone one object, and that's why it's in the kitchen, okay?

  Alison Lush 15:59

  100% your instincts are right on the market, on the ball. And the third zone is longer term storage. And I the perfect example of what we I put I use it as a visual example to help people understand what zone three storage is, it's a pain in the butt to get to, it's like you have to go all the way down three flights of stairs to the basement, maybe you have to use a key to get into a storage locker, maybe it's in your parents basement, maybe it's up in the attic, and you have to climb a ladder, it's a pain in the butt to get to you only want to go there a few times a year. So what do we keep in zone three storage, we keep things like Christmas decorations. We keep things like our seven years of taxes, we keep things like childhood memorabilia, we keep things that we don't need to access on a frequent basis. Again, it's all based on frequency of access, how often am I going to reach for this thing? And therefore does it deserve to be in Zone One? Should it be in zone two? Or should it be? Could it be relegated to zone three?

  KC Davis 16:50

  Okay, so is in terms of decluttering? Can you almost reverse engineer this and say, Okay, here's this, you know, earplugs sitting on my desk. This is not something I ever need at my desk. And so then go well, is it something? How frequently do I need this? What do I need it once a year? Do I even need it there? Like is that a way that you can sort of begin to sort of ripple effect clear out and declutter some spaces?

  Alison Lush 17:17

  Yeah, absolutely. I visualized it in my own head. I don't know why. But I've always used the term massaging, I'm massaging my belongings, I'm pulling closer to me, things that are more important and meaningful, like your vacuum, your pulled it closer to you because you need it more often. And pushing away things that are less instantly necessary in order to make room for because one of the things I have 20 years background in the catering industry, I was a myth for the hotel. And I managed the floor of dining rooms and catering events. And one of the key things that I learned from that is humans need space to move and to do stuff. And we frequently forget to leave space for the humans. And so we have to factor that in. It's valuable to push things away so that there's more room for the humans to function.

  KC Davis 18:01

  And will you is that the zones? one two and three.

  Alison Lush 18:04

  Yeah. And then when you get to the end of zone three, it's like, do I even need to own this.

  KC Davis 18:09

  So when people talk about so let's say they get the end of zone three, and they're going to even need to own this. And if they're still having trouble letting go. There's a couple of things that I've seen you talk about that I thought were genius on your channel where you talked about memorabilia, and ways that you can keep honor and or display parts of memorabilia or your memorabilia without it, you know, maybe just living in its entirety and a Rubbermaid bin or whatever. Can you talk a minute about that?

  Alison Lush 18:39

  Yeah, there's two things I'd like to say on the memorabilia because it is such a huge issue. One is the example that you're giving is my daughter's Playmobil collection. It was a massively important part of her childhood. If we all had to choose one thing that was like significant of her childhood, it would have been the Playmobil. So I took a selection of it and put it in a shadowbox and it's literally hanging on our bathroom wall. And it's so cheerful and beautiful. And it honors her childhood and you know, our parenting and it honors a whole bunch of things on many different levels. And it means we don't have to keep that great big tote of Playmobil. That's one thing so keeping a sampling. Some people call it a sampling. Some people call it I forget something else. There's other terms. I learned that from Judith Kohlberg, who's an amazing person. She has a book called chronic disorganization, and it's available to the public. She has two versions, one for professional organizers and one for the public. Anybody who's interested in chronic disorganization can easily find her little book available on the internet and they might be interested in buying it. The second thing I want to say about memorabilia that I think is hugely important is a measure that me personally I use to help me decide sometimes is it okay for me to actually let this thing go or not? When I'm when we're sitting on the fence and we're feeling ambivalent, oh, I've got this thing. I wonder if I should be letting it go or not. I want to let it go. But I'm afraid to let it go. That we so often find ourselves in that position and it's very uncomfortable. So I came up with this visual, that I think, is really helpful. And people seem to get if it was a white t shirt that I was debating about, should I keep this white t shirt or let it go, Oh my gosh, I don't know what to do. If I let it go. And tomorrow morning, I wake up and I go, Oh, my God, I should have kept that white t shirt, I could really use a white t shirt. How difficult is it for me to go out and replace it. It's super simple. I could even go to a thrift store. And for four bucks, I could get a white t shirt like they're everywhere white t shirts, right. And if we're just talking about a white t shirt, it's just a thing, I can easily replace the thing. It sort of echoes the minimalists advice that if you can replace it for 20 bucks or within 20 minutes, then let it go. I like having guidelines like that so that we don't hang on to just everything. The other example I give like to complete the imagery is okay, what if I'm sitting on the fence and we're talking about my grandmother's pearls, she gave me her pearls when I got married. It's a necklace and a pair of earrings. I've worn them a few times, they're sitting in my jewelry box. But the reality is, they don't resonate with me, I don't feel comfortable wearing them. It's not my style. It's strictly a piece of memorabilia that was meaningful to my grandmother and meaningful for our relationship, I will probably never wear them again. So if I'm looking at that set of pearls, and I'm sitting on the fence, and I asked myself the question, if I let these go, when I wake up tomorrow morning, and I regret the decision, how easy or difficult is it going to be to replace them? The reality is, it's impossible to replace them because they came from my grandmother, they're one of a kind. So what that identifies using the example of the white t shirt and my grandma's pearls that identifies the level of risk. So the level of risk, if I make a mistake is not the same for every item, this is a mistake that we make, we simply often look at everything, and only think of the money value, or its memorabilia, therefore I have to keep it we put so much value on belongings it makes it so that they're like a ball and chain, and we can't let them go. So anything that we can do to identify ways that we can loosen our grip and let go of things that are less important. It means that we can hang on to things that are more important with a higher value and a higher risk value if we let them go, because we can't keep everything.

  KC Davis 22:08

  I like that what it also reminds me of is that I think sometimes when people are getting rid of things, maybe they don't want them, they don't need them. It doesn't function in their life. But it's not that having it is bringing value to your their life. It's that they feel as though the act of getting rid of it is somehow betraying it, or disrespecting it or you know, it's just so hard to get rid of something. And I think that's a part to look at too. Because in your example, like let's say you decide, okay, you know, you I don't want the pearl earrings, I think talking about then where are they going to go is different? Because of the choices? Do I keep the pearl earrings from my grandmother? Or do I throw them in the trash? Like, obviously, I'm not gonna throw those in the trash. But if it's do I keep them? Or do I take them to a secondhand shop? Or do I donate them to a dress for success for lower income women that can't afford me, then I feel like well, that's really honoring to my grandmother, actually. And I'm going to take sort of one of the Marie Kondo tips where she talks about, you know, has this item given its gift to me, and that gift can't be taken away, even if I pass on, and maybe it's honored if I pass it on. And in that vein, I sort of wanted to share a story that I found when I was younger. So I think everyone has had an experience with their first love. Right? Maybe you were 1516 20. And I had this box of memorabilia from my first love, right? This is the you know, just life changing, you know, you'll never forget that person. And pictures and love letters, nice things. And when I got engaged, I said, you know, I think as we move into this new space, I don't want to bring this box, right. Like it was a sweet relationship. And it gave me so much. But I don't need to keep hanging on to, for lots of reasons we could go into what the emotional significance of these things are for me when I move into this new space with my husband and my you know, like that. And but the stopping point, Allison was that I couldn't bring myself to throw it in the trash. And it's not like somebody I can't read gift pictures of me and my 16 year old boyfriend. And you know, what I ended up doing was I had a good friend at the time, who was sort of mentoring me. And I said, you know, I'd really like to sit down with you and show you my box. And I want to show you every picture and I want to read you every letter and I want to tell you about this relationship that I had that shaped the course of my life and how sweet it was and how bittersweet it was, and the things that still mean something to me today. And I want you to know I want to tell you the story. And when I'm done telling you the story, I want to give you the box and I don't ever want to hear about what you do with the box. And I mean I know logically she threw the box in the trash. She's not keep hitting this box, but I was removed from the significance of putting in the trash. That's not what I did with it. I told the story, honor the story. And I handed the box gingerly over to her. And she said out loud to me, I will take care of this for you. And I will honor it. And obviously, it didn't need to go somewhere. And I don't even like to say out loud that I don't want the trash. But it was such a cool way of honoring this thing. That was this memorabilia, but it didn't serve my life anymore. But I didn't want it to go in the trash. And so I'd love to share that story. Because it was one of my better strokes of genius about how to kind of get rid of something that had that weight to it.

  Alison Lush 25:37

  It's so powerful that story. It's a very, very beautiful, elegant and just infused with honor, what you did for yourself for the relationship for that other person for that collection. on every level, it was just filled with honor. And you found your solution, which is beautiful and phenomenal that you liberated yourself from the weight of that ownership of that thing. It takes a lot of courage to do that a lot of the people that I'm dealing with, that I'm working with that I'm conversing with, haven't yet gotten to the place where they could have that confidence or that courage to do that. So what we're doing is always just exploring anything that they could possibly do to liberate themselves, could they reduce the collection, I often encourage people to explore the meaning of the thing. So the meaning of the relationship, the meaning of the pictures, what might you do in the future, I still have my tiny collection, I've reduced it down to very minimal. But that collection that you were just talking about, I've still got mine. And I've still got it tucked away because I haven't been able to let it go yet, but it's very small. One thing I did get let go of was my collection of journals, I had a whole years and years of books that I had filled with writing years and years from about age, I don't know 16 to 25, or something like that. And when I started going on my real journey of decluttering. For myself, it's a whole process. I've been on this journey for 11 years now. And in about year five, I actually hired a professional organizer to help me get past some of the things that I was struggling with. And just by having her working with me off on my own, I went off on this tangent, I said, I want to deal with my journals. And I did it and I shredded them, all of them. I ripped them out of their books, I shredded all the paper through the covers of the books into the garbage. And I feel fantastic. Because what I realized is the purpose of those books, and this gets back to the meaning of the belonging. What was the purpose of those books, the purpose of those books was to help me in that moment to work through issues, and to learn and to move beyond whatever issues I was struggling with. They were like work papers, working through issues. And now it's like five years, 10 years, 2030 years later, I don't need to go back and see the work that I did on those issues. I've moved way beyond those issues, you are the work that you did exactly. So the books served their purpose. That's one of the things that I do love about Marie Kondo philosophy is thank the thing for what you got from it, and then move on and let it go. And that that was one of the examples of how I applied that philosophy. Absolutely.

  KC Davis 28:03

  Well, so when Samantha talks about a group moving around, I think it's really significant that that's how she starts it, because she's telling us that the emotional issues around getting rid of things probably has to do with the sense of either instability or impermanence that she felt when she was younger, you know, we typically associate the stability or the permanence of being in one place with the concept of home. Right home is not transient home doesn't change day to day, we're going month to month. And I think a lot of people who either it could be that you had a great, wonderful family and you moved around a lot, it could be that you experienced some adverse childhood experiences, whether that's abuse or a loss. And I think that brings a new level of complexity into our things. And I think it's important to recognize that and I think it sounds like Samantha does and and to honor that, like we've been talking about where we say, okay, you know, this broom, that, you know, is falling apart? What is that bringing up for me that fear of getting rid of that? Is it that I used to not be able to afford another broom? Is it that we grew up poor, and I can hear my meme on my head saying, you know, don't waste things, you know, good people don't waste things. Is it that the transient nature of getting rid of things, you never got to hold on to anything long enough to feel a sense of home? And there's no easy answer to that. But just being willing to say these are valid things to experience around my stuff. And I think that there are also some things you can do. First of all, I always want to say like, there's nothing wrong with recognizing that's why I want to hold on to things and so I'm going to hold on to them, hold on to them, if that's where you are in your journey, and you need that comfort that reassurance hold on to them. Now, if maybe it says well, it is affecting my functioning well, but maybe we can find ways to keep those things in a way that doesn't affect your functioning, right? And that's where we get creative. But maybe she does say no, I really do, you know, kind of need to get rid of it. And I think that sometimes we don't have to meet it head on. Like, I have this picture in my online shop, and you can buy it as a print or you can download it for free. And it says this home is a safe home, and I am safe in it. And I think sometimes we need these visual reminders. This is not my childhood home, I am safe here. This is my, you know, stable home. And I think there's a lot of things we can do in our environment that can help us kind of gain that reassurance we need so that we can maybe sometimes let go of an item we need to.

  Alison Lush 30:40

  Yeah, that's an excellent point. I don't think I've ever heard anybody talk in that in those terms about comparing the childhood home versus the today home and how we can create our today home to feel more secure. That's very beautiful. The way you just describe that.

  KC Davis 30:54

  Well, thank you. And it kind of brings just because I talked about hanging a piece of artwork. This question I thought was really interesting. This is from kitty. It says one of my struggles is decorating, which sounds stupid as I write it. But when I look around my house with its crappy mismatched decor, and it's dirty walls, Kid destroyed couch hand me down furniture and lack of any style. I'm defeated and deflated. Not talking about high end interior decoration, although what? What I wouldn't do to win the lottery. I would like my house to look more like a family lives here and less like squatters do. How do you hang photos? How do you paint walls? How do you feel good about your space? And this question almost makes me have tears in my eyes. Because I feel like when you're talking about our relationship to our space, and how do we make a home. And I was just curious if you had any thoughts on that.

  Alison Lush 31:44

  I certainly don't specialize in interior decoration. But I have got an image that and a notion that I had developed a several years ago, which I think might be helpful here. You've probably heard of home staging, when people are putting their house on the market, they want to sell a home. The real estate people want to be able to bring strangers in and walk them around and show them the place and we want what you want is for anybody walking in to be able to imagine themselves being able to live there. Therefore, it's important that the decor in the space be neutralized so that anybody can imagine themselves living there. That's the goal. So in staging, and I'm not a home stager, I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here. But my understanding of home staging is neutralizing the environment taking out the personal the over personal from the environment. And when I realized that a number of years ago, what I realized is my personal goal working with clients is to do the exact opposite. My goal is to reach inside of the human being, reach inside of the human being and help them extract and pull out whatever is personal and meaning for them and then infuse their environment with who they are and what's meaningful to them. There's no such thing as it should be this way it should be that way. Don't have to worry. I personally don't think the focus needs to be on how to hang a picture. The focus could be perhaps better invested in what do I want to be looking at it every every day, that makes me feel good. That reinforces my feeling of pride about my family, and I'm a good mom and I love my beautiful kids and my kids love each other and look at them having a great activity in this picture that picture. That's what matters. It doesn't matter what frames they're in. It doesn't matter what wall they go in. It doesn't matter how they're hung. It's the images. It's the life inside. It's the personal connection, and the resonance with the person and their life. That's what the value of home decor is. Whether it's color whether it's I want to have a yellow wall because yellow makes me feel cheerful, then that's the right color to have on the wall. There's no right and wrong the answers are inside of us. That's my view. .

  KC Davis 33:48

  I love it. And I think obviously if we're worried about oh, is it aesthetic, does it look right together? There are obviously people you could ask to come in and tell you that there you could get a handyman to hang photos. But I think I mean I hear kitty asking the deeper question that you're really answering which is we don't have to worry about creating some sort of aesthetically cohesive look. If you want that you can do that. It's more about as you say kind of unstaged the space and getting into you know when she says the crappy mismatched decor the dirty walls, the kid destroyed couch. Some of that is just changing the way you look at those items.

  Alison Lush 34:26

  It's a life that's being lived in when I look at my sink of dirty dishes. If I get up in the morning and I look into my sink of dirty dishes, I can either say oh Ellison you know you lazy slob. You should have to wash the dishes last night or I can say aren't we lucky? We had a wonderful dinner last night

  KC Davis 34:40

  Yes and that like I have a crappy kid destroyed couch. I have cats my couch is gross to look at. I mean there are stains on it. There's cat hair on it. But you know the meaning of that couch is a life well lived and now it's not pretty to look at but what I did was right above that couch on our window sills are hung these handmade ladybugs that my three year old made, and I feel like it's the perfect representation of okay, we don't love the couch, we'd like to get a new couch the couch isn't nice looking. It doesn't. I don't feel warm and fuzzy when I look at it. But in conjunction with these handmade ladybugs, there's something about them together. I mean, they're holed, they're up there with scotch tape, there's something about that picture together. That gives that couch meaning, right? It's not squatters that live here. It's little kids.

  Alison Lush 35:28

  I think that it's really important that we recognize that every phase of life that we're in, has different needs. And we're focusing on different priorities right now, anybody with kids growing up, like in Kitty's house, the focus is raising a family supporting those kids so that they can go out and have friends supporting those kids. So they can go out and get an education, supporting the parents so that they can support the kids. That's what it's all about right now in the family. My personal home, for example, right now, my kids have moved up, moved up, grown up and moved out. And so now it's just my husband and I, the phase of life that we're in is completely different. Our home, we have more space, we have more peace, there's fewer dirty dishes in the sink, it's a different phase of life, if we aspire to a style or an aesthetic that is beyond our reach, because it's not appropriate for the phase of life that we're in, we're guaranteeing ourselves to be dissatisfied. If we rather like you did with your coach. And with the ladybugs, if we rather say this is this phase of life I'm in right now and honor it and say I want to be a great parent I what's important to me is to have a comfortable, warm, fuzzy family home and couch where we can all cuddle up together. And we're not going to be stressed out about spilling the chocolate milk on the couch or whatever. What's more important is our time together, then the stains on the couch become much less important. And then later on, when the kids are grown up and moved out, you can get a pretty couch or you can always put a cover over it or something if you want to.

  KC Davis 36:49

  And when she says the mismatched decor, I want to bet money that that decor is something that she got off of a shelf somewhere because she thought to herself, that's looks like something that would be hung on an adult's wall, right, as opposed to something meaningful. And I think what you're saying can go hand in hand with what I'm about to say, which is sometimes when we are in the trenches of little kid life sometimes or thinking about decor, you know, we do want to be reminded that we are people outside of this phase of life. And one thing that comes to me is I mean, you know, I'm thinking kitty, do you have a favorite band? Do you have a favorite band? Do you have a favorite painting? Do you have something you loved? Maybe because when you were in college before kids, maybe you had those band posters on the wall. Now, you may not want to tack them up on the wall, but you can frame it, you can make it look like an adult lives and have these representations of you know, this is this is who I am. And that makes me happy to look at, you know, if you've got some sort of live, laugh, love nondescript scones on the wall, because that's kind of what you thought adults put on the walls. Maybe that's why it's not speaking to you. So I would lean into both like lean into Okay, let's put the ladybugs on the wall and lean into this is my favorite band. Why did I ever take that poster down? My husband and I have this was supposed to be a game room. But it was sort of our guest room slash where he was working for the longest time. And it just kind of became the Doom room. We dumped everything there. And we decided that, hey, when we sell this house, we will have to stage this area. And then we will be mad at ourselves that we waited until we were leaving to make it like a nice cool area. So we redid the area. And we didn't do anything like we didn't paint anything or do any construction, just simple, you know, got rid of some things brought a couple of little bookcases and chairs and, and when we stepped back, we looked at it and it's our favorite place in the house. Because it's the only place in our house, the kids don't go. And we find ourselves hanging out here all the time. And sometimes my husband even sleep up here, because it just it almost feels like a little bachelor pad. It feels like a little one room loft. We didn't want to buy new pictures. So we ended up putting some pictures of some renderings that I did when I was in college as a costume design student on the walls. We have a throw that says I wait here for you forever as long as it takes and we just tacked it up on the wall. And so we joke with each other that like we come up here to sort of cosplay like single people living in a loft in New York. Because, you know, the majority of our house is dedicated to sort of a kid centric space. And so I think there's a way to sort of lean into both of those things at once. You know what makes me happy because if you put something on the wall that makes you happy to look at all the sudden it doesn't bother you as much that it doesn't match the theme. 100% Yes, anything that we can do to recharge our batteries and fuel ourselves so that we can continue giving to other people and doing whatever it is that we're trying to accomplish. That's so valuable. Okay, I feel like we have question time for maybe one more question. And that's it. This one was interesting. This is from Aria, she says, my home life and my work life blur into endless chaos. Do you have some tactics for how to separate and manage the mental and physical clutter? When that clutter meshes into inappropriate times, ie I cannot turn off work on off days, because I'm very available to my clients, or I'm at work, but I'm worried about the mess in the kitchen. And you know, she's kind of talking about mentally, how do I turn it off. But what I was reminded when I read this, is that throughout this pandemic, we've had more and more people staying at home. And where it used to be, well, home is my home life, my family and office is my office. And you know, the bar is my social life. And then I go to the library to knit, like, all of a sudden, everything's at home. And I'm curious what any kind of insight you have on when we think about organizing our stuff, is there a way to organize our stuff that helps us with those boundaries and delineations. And I'm thinking particularly for someone that doesn't have the obvious option of Oh, yeah, just put it in your home office, right, because not everybody has a home office

  Alison Lush 41:02

  Reminded of the notion of what's enough. So for example, typically, well, one of the themes in people feeling absolutely overwhelmed and being very ambitious in their career or whatever, trying to squeeze in so many things in 24 hours, there's a density to what they're trying to pack into 24 hours and things over overlap, and they don't get time off. And I find it very helpful to pull it back and try to identify what is enough, if I give support to my clients, what is just enough support to my clients, what is just enough housekeeping, it's very much resonating with all of the language that you use, which is just enough to get myself you know, started on the next state, for example. Because when we're being ambitious, professionally, and out in the world, it's sort of like a black hole, it will suck out everything that you will give it, we have to make the boundaries ourselves. And we only have 20k. Here's another thought, and I'm bouncing a little bit on this one, too, I will confess time management, productivity is not my zone of comfort. And it's I don't specialize in it, because it's not something that I feel that I master on the one hand, and it's not a place where I feel comfortable speaking, my zone of comfort is physical stuff, and emotional attachment and skill development and getting people unstuck. That's where, especially with their physical belongings and helping people get refocused. But this comes up a lot people who are stuck with feeling overburdened with their met, how they manage their time in their space, one of the most powerful things that any of us can do is to remember that we only have 24 hours in a day. It's just like money, you only have so much we're accustomed to talking about money and money being a finite resource, you only have so much money to get through the month, or to get through the year. And we function with whatever money we've got. Or we keep sliding into debt. And it's obvious, we can see it right there on the balance sheet. But what we forget often is that we only have 24 hours in a day, and we only have so much energy and time. But we spend our energy and our time as if it was an infinite, as if they were infinite resources, and they are not. So anybody who's struggling with time and energy management, it's recommended that they spend a little bit of time doing, I just sent one to a client yesterday. It's a sheet like a spreadsheet. And you basically note down how you're spending your time there 24 hour period over a week. And you do that for like two weeks. And it gives you feedback about how you're actually spending your time and your energy. Because frequently when we're feeling overwhelmed and like we our boundaries are all intermeshed and we're not taking care of our fundamental needs. It's because we're spending our time and energy more in places where maybe it's not the best and less where we actually need it. And so we need to get a portrait of where we're actually spending it. And this is based on the concept that any financial adviser would have us do. If you're trying to get your finances under control. First, start by identify where are you actually spending your money. Let's start there. And then massage and put more here and less from there. And it's the same thing with time and energy, because they're finite resources.

  KC Davis 44:28

  What it also reminds me of is it be interesting not only to look at how I'm spending my time, but also mentally where am I? How much of the day do I spend thinking about those dishes? How much of the day am I spending thinking about those clients? And I'm reminded of a couple of things that have really worked in my home is I sort of famously have the dirty dish rack right because for reasons that are not important to this podcast, I sometimes have a difficult time taking a dish using a dish rinsing it off putting in the dish. I mean, it's just a lot of steps for me, right I can do about half those steps with ease So I got a dish rack, because what was happening was that when when the dishes were piled up in the sink, it was very overwhelming to me, I couldn't have access to the sink. And now I'm thinking about what a huge mess it was, when I got a dish rack and put it next to the sink and started stacking up the dirty dishes. For some reason, the same amount of dishes stacked, organized on a rack seems so much less intimidating and fewer dishes actually even then when they're bundled in the sink. And I'm also thinking about, you know, when we are looking at how much time am I spending thinking about these things versus doing these things? I'm wondering if there are these small organizational steps that someone like ARIA could take where, okay, you don't maybe have 10 minutes in the morning to do all the dishes. But do you have three minutes to put them on a dish rack? Because then maybe you won't think about them so much, because they're not cluttering the space? They're not, you know, oh, it's such a mess. It's like, no, it's staged, right, it's there ready to go when you have time. And maybe there would be a comparable way of sort of, it's almost like when she needs to work, she needs a way of triaging the home stuff. And when she's at home, she needs a way of triaging and there's, I can't help but think that there's got to be some visual and organizational systems that can help her feel as though Okay, these things have been bookmarked to be taken care of. And I don't have to sit here and think about them.

  Alison Lush 46:25

  So what you've just identified with the dishrack is, it's a container, you have given a specific container that has been earmarked for a purpose. And so you've legitimized the dirty dishes, which is the perfect solution in your situation, it's a perfect solution, when they were sitting in the sink, they don't really belong in the sink, because it makes the sink, not functional, it makes the sink difficult to access. So when you want to fill up that big pot of water to make pasta at lunch, you can't do it, because there's all kinds of dirty dishes. So to make the sink functional, you created a reserved specific space for the dirty dishes. And that was a perfect solution. So if anybody like for example, Aria, looking at something that's dysfunctional, the bothering her, if it keeps bothering her, I would encourage her to look at it and try to ask herself the questions. In what way? Is it bothering her? Is it that she's reminded of it all the time? Is it that there's some guilt associated with it? And if there's guilt, where's the guilt coming from? Is it some old cassette in her brain that was, you know, doesn't need to be there that she could replace with something else? Is it reasonable to feel guilty about it? Or is it perfectly normal to have dirty dishes, for example, and what other options might exist? So it's when we take any individual specific little thing exactly as you did with the dirtiness and the sink? And look at it and ask ourselves what is necessary here, and what don't I need, and then what is a simple solution to containerize and legitimize the thing

  KC Davis 47:55

  That is awesome, we get away from the scripts about what should be in our home. And we just look at what is actually in our home, if we we can make the decision to get rid of some things that aren't functioning, but when things are in our home, just legitimizing it and giving it permission to exist, allows you It frees you up for the creativity to go okay, so then we need a system here, we need a container, we need a place for these to exist that doesn't impede the functioning of the sink that doesn't have it always on my mind. I love that because I'm thinking of so many things in my home. That, you know, it reminds me of when I used to like it was a newborn and I would change her diaper. And we soon found that because the doors closed all the time for nap, the dirty diaper been made the room smell, and we're like, oh, she can't sleep in there. So we started we moved it out into the hallway. Well, when you're changing a baby's diaper, and then you grab the dirty diaper. Well, but now you have to put the baby into the crib. You're not just like walking out with it. And so I would toss them into the hallway, thinking well, I'll toss them into the hallway, and then I'll pick it up on my way out except I never picked it up on my way out. So I always had this pile of peepee and poopoo diapers right outside the nursery. And then I walked by they're like, ah, such a piece of shit. I can't believe I've done that so disgusting. But one day, I really did look at them and legitimize them like you know what this is what's happening right now this is like low on the totem pole of things that need to be solved in my life. And I just put a wastebasket there, right where the pile was. So that as I tossed them out of the room, they were going right into a little trash can. And now I can empty the trash can when it's full, and I just legitimized the pile of dirty diapers and gave them a container. And you know what, it was a short season of our life and it's not an issue anymore. And I'm glad that I didn't beat myself up or make myself sort of do what I should have done with them. Because at the end of the day, who's got time for that?

  Alison Lush 49:50

  I have three other echoes on that on the theme of categorizing and legitimizing when I'm working with clients, we always come across things that they're not ready to make a decision about yet, decision making is very, very difficult. I don't know what to do with this thing, whatever this thing is, I don't know if I should keep it or if I should let it go. If a person is really stuck on it, the worst thing that we can do is just put it down. Because then we're just creating chaos, if we're really close to like, I've got a lot of categories and things are going well. And I have this one thing I don't know what to do with. If I have a box called something like the ripening box or the indecision box or something, a space, that is actually a container, we can put things in there that we have no idea what to do with right now and then come back and revisit it later. And frequently, just the passage of time, when we come back, and we look at that thing in the future. Sometimes it's obviously, but we're ready to make a decision, because we've just let some time pass. So that's one. The second one is, when we're organizing and creating categories and putting labels on all kinds of categories, frequently, we ends up with things that they just don't fit into a category, they just don't. And so we use this word called Miss kibble. So the Miss kibble box is just like all the random stuff, it's like, rather than calling it the junk box, it's the Michigan kibble box. And we don't know what to do with it, just toss it in there, it'll be safe, you know, it's not lost, if you need it, you can go and look for it, it's a safe place to put things. And the third one is, many of my clients are creative types. And they have bits of pipe and bits of leather and bits of fabric and bits of plastic and all these things and they say, but I might be able to use it one day, which is totally legitimate, but they don't know what to do with it. And they feel everybody's always saying, Oh, just get rid of it. It's just a piece of junk. But they're creative people. And they see things in terms of possibility. So they see they know that they need raw materials in the future. So we create a category called raw materials. And that gets the name and legitimacy. And we can create a box for it and put all the stuff in that one box all mixed up. And they're happy, and they get to keep the stuff that they need. But it's got walls in a container, and it doesn't take over the whole house.

  KC Davis 51:56

  I love that there. I think that there are probably a lot of people here and we will wrap up with this. But I just there's probably a lot of people that resist reaching out to an organizer, because they know they're not ready to purge things, they're not ready to get rid of a bunch of stuff, they're not ready to, you know, go through that emotional process. And what I'm hearing is that you would be a safe person for someone to reach out and say, I'm not ready to do some big declutter, overhaul, get rid downsize. But I need some help. And I love that because you deserve to function in your space. You deserve to have someone that can meet you compassionately with creative solutions on how you can raise your quality of life. Even if you're not ready to do some big purge,

  Not everybody needs to purge stuff. What I focus on is helping people get unstuck. That's the way I think of it, people come to me and they say, I'm stuck. I don't know how to get past this thing. It's like this big boulder in my way, and I can't get past it. So we focus on what can we do about the boulder? Does it need to be, you know, blown up and event? It's going to be a whole bunch of little pieces? And you can just step over it? Or can we figure out a way to get around it? Or can we figure out a way to look at it differently. And it'll be see through, that's what we do is we focus on whatever is blocking the person, I sometimes do sessions with people. And we do one session or two sessions. And that's all they need in order to get unstuck. And then they're often they go on their own. We don't necessarily embark on a process where we're working together weekly for the next year or something like that. Every single person has different needs, and I adapt my services. And for whatever the person needs. It's totally, totally flexible and absolutely meets the person where they are. Not everybody needs to get rid of their stuff. That's a very dangerous assumption. I think that that's one thing about the professional organizing industry that is a shame is that we've got this reputation of being we're going to tell everybody to throw it all their stuff. I absolutely do not agree with that. Not helpful.

  Well, Alison, where can people find you if they want to find you on social media, if they want to work with you?

  Alison Lush 53:59

  The easiest thing to do is just to Google me and find my website. That's the absolute easiest thing to do. Alison lush.ca is my website. So you will find me. And there's information there. There's answers to questions. There's a link to a 20 minute introductory exploratory call, which is free I phone the person, we have a 20 minute phone call to see what their needs are and what services I'm offering and figure out if we'd make a good team together. So if people are curious about my services, they'll get information there and they can reach out to me and I'm on social medias as well. But that's the main place is my website or my tic toc alongside KC,KC news. And

  KC Davis 54:34

  Alison is with one L.

  Alison Lush 54:36

  Yes.

  KC Davis 54:37

  Okay. And she's also linked on my website. So if you go to struggle care.com And you click on Resources and homecare, she is one of the resources that I listed there if you want to check out her website and what is your Tiktok handle?

  Alison Lush 54:50

  I think it's Alison lash underscore enough. Pretty sure that's what it is. Alison lash underscore enough.

  KC Davis 54:55

  Great. Well, Alison, I can't thank you so much. This has been an awesome conversation. And I hope that everyone goes and follows Alison. But if you don't follow me, come follow me too. And Alison, it's been a joy. Thank you so much.

  Alison Lush 55:10

  It's been such an honor. Thank you very much and congratulations again.

  KC Davis 55:13

  Thanks.

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In our first episode, you heard my conversation with Dr. Lesley Cook about executive functioning. Because she has so much great information and wisdom to share, I decided to bring her back to discuss self-compassion. Is it a bad thing to have TOO MUCH self-compassion? Join us for the conversation with Dr. Lesley!

Dr. Lesley Cook is a psychologist who does a lot of work with ADHD and other neurodivergencies. Born and raised in Hawaii, she now lives in Virginia and works with children, adolescents, adults, couples, and families. 

Show Highlights:

• How to find the balance between the message of self-compassion and the need for better life management and progress

• A basic understanding of self-compassion from Dr. Kristin Neff’s writings

• A closer look at shame and how we experience it in relation to self-compassion

• How to gently shift shame into self-compassion

• How self-compassion can become a learned behavior that we pass down to our children

Resources: 

Connect with Dr. Lesley: TikTok and Instagram

Connect with KC: TikTok and Instagram

Get KC's Book, How to Keep House While Drowning

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, KC Davis. I'm taking a break this August, but I wanted to play for you some of my most downloaded episodes. This episode is with Dr. Leslie cook. She is an amazing psychologist who has experience working with children and adults. She specializes in ADHD, autism spectrum disorders, learning disabilities, and the like. She has extensive experience providing professional trainings in this area, and has a lot of really great things to say. So in this episode, she and I got together to talk about self compassion. And in particular, it's too much self compassionate thing. Can you enable yourself or enable others by giving too much compassion? If you've ever wondered this, stay tuned. Get a drink of water, take care of yourself. I'm here with my good friend, Dr. Leslie Cook, say hello, Leslie.

  Lesley PsyD 0:50

  Hey, it's nice to be here. Again,

  KC Davis 0:51

  if you're tuning in with us, you probably heard Dr. Lesley cook last week because I had her on to talk about executive functioning. And I invited her back and I had this great idea that we were going to talk about weaponized incompetence. And then as we got closer to the recording, I remembered we already did a recording on weaponized incompetence. And so I'm going to call an audible and pepper Leslie with Q and A's that we're going to answer together about that.

  Lesley PsyD 1:18

  It sounds great. I cannot wait.

  KC Davis 1:19

  Excellent. Okay, so I just want to jump right in because I've got some fascinating ones. Here we go. So as you know, much of my I'm just going to start with a real spicy one. Is that okay? Yeah, that sounds great. Alright, so as you know, my my content on tick tock is primarily about home care, self care, mental health, and self compassion, right all about sort of recognizing how many things in our life we feel like failures about and then being able to internalize like that struggling with that thing doesn't make me a failure. What often happens when I talk about this, is I get a lot of feedback that says like, Oh, thank you, I feel so much better. Thank you. I'm operating so much better in my home. Thank you. This really helps. But I occasionally will get people that have a similar reaction to this commenter. Okay. And so she actually commented twice. And the first time it was when I asked for people who wanted to do q&a, and this is what she said, I think it's great to help people get past feelings of failing for not doing maximum levels of housework. But I hope you also teach that when someone is using the struggle care techniques to survive, they need to also be facing how to get out of crisis, not having more kids or adding to their load, while they forgive themselves for mess and allowing for doing less, they need to also get real about getting their life to a more manageable place. All right. So here's the second comment, this was on a different video. Your videos have me spiraling this week, because I'm worried some people not you are getting the message to forgive themselves too much, and really not doing enough really failing their kids, I hope you'll keep reinforcing the part about how to do what needs to be done, versus doing too much or nothing. And this comment, first of all, thank you to this commenter for commenting this because I can tell that she's having a legitimate sort of emotional reaction. She's not trying to be any type of way, right? And I just, it's been rattling around in my brain. And I've been having trouble finding the words for what it brings up or what I'm seeing in it. So I'm just curious, your thoughts off the top of your head?

  Lesley PsyD 3:31

  I think in both of those comments, I do I do a lot of parenting work. And I almost feel like I hear a version of some of these early parenting messages that perhaps people receive when they're younger. And when we are under stress, a lot of those early messages tend to just come out all of a sudden. So when I hear that I almost hear, you know, it's okay to take a break on your homework today. But don't forget, you can't get too far behind. So you need to keep going to reach this optimal level. So part of me wonders if that's an old message. And the other part of me wonders, when we work with very young children, especially during their developmental period. We always meet them where they are, right. So if a child is learning to walk, our first statement isn't, you know, it's okay that you're crawling. But we got to we got to get to this walking phase, we have this understanding that crawling, enrolling leads to creeping leads to crawling leads to walking. But as adults, I think sometimes we forget that, that it's okay to meet ourselves with compassion, where we are today, even if where we are today is non functional. That doesn't stop our progress. In fact, it's an incredibly important starting point and it can be freeing to do that.

  KC Davis 4:46

  I hear a lot of fear in this comment. And my initial reaction when I saw this comment was that this person is perhaps either a child who was If not cared for in the way that they deserve by their parents, or is perhaps someone that knows someone who is not giving an adequate or functional amount of care to their children, right? Like, I really didn't read this as someone who's like, I really want permission to be judgmental, because sometimes that's what people mean, right? They feel like it's okay to extend compassion or teach people self compassion up to a point. But they have this like line in their head where it's like, but if you're doing X, you are you should not be using self compassion on yourself. You shouldn't be feeling shame, which I think just goes back to this idea that ultimately, as much as we say that shame is not a good motivator long term. That, that shame isn't the best change agent that we have. And in fact, it most often backfires, and stalls out change. That I think underlying belief is really hard to root out. And I feel like this is where it comes to the surface is like, okay, it's okay for us to be self compassionate about not getting our dishes done. But what about that mom who just left their kid in a dirty diaper for 12 hours, and now they have, you know, open sores on their bottom? Like, they're not allowed to be self compassionate, right? And so we get into this place of well, what do we mean by self compassion? What do we think self compassion does? And that's kind of where my brain goes with it.

  Lesley PsyD 6:31

  Yeah, I think I think what I'm hearing in what you're saying too, is there's some belief that's tied up with fear, if I have compassion for myself, I'm afraid that I could become that person, if I let myself versus I think one of the messages from from your content across all platforms is giving yourself Self Compassion, radically, unequivocally where you are, is less likely to lead you there that it's more likely to free you to imagine where you could be next.

  KC Davis 7:05

  So let's just take a minute and actually talk about like a definition of self compassion, because probably there's people listening that are going well, I don't even know what that is. Okay. So I'm gonna read you a definition of self compassion. This is from Dr. Kristin Neff. She's sort of the pioneer of self compassion research. Let me see Here she talks about the three elements of self compassion. So number one is self kindness, versus self judgment. It says self compassion entails being warm and understanding towards ourselves when we suffer, fail feel inadequate, rather than ignoring our pain or flagellating ourselves with self criticism. Self compassionate people recognize that being imperfect, failing and experiencing life difficulties is inevitable, so they tend to be gentle with themselves when confronted with painful experiences rather than getting angry when life falls short of set ideals. People cannot always be or get exactly what they want when this reality is denied are fought against suffering increases in the form of stress, frustration and self criticism. When this reality is accepted with sympathy and self kindness, greater emotional equanimity is experienced. Number two, common humanity versus isolation. So first raishin at not having things exactly what you want is often accompanied by an irrational but pervasive sense of isolation. As if I were the only person suffering or making mistakes all humans suffer. The very definition of Being human means that one is mortal, vulnerable and imperfect. Therefore, self compassion involves recognizing that suffering and personal inadequacy is part of the shared human experience. It doesn't just happen to me alone. And then number three, mindfulness versus over identification. Self Compassion also requires taking a balanced approach to our negative emotions, so that feelings are neither suppressed nor exaggerated. This equilibrium stance stems from process of relating personal experiences to those who are also suffering and thus putting ourselves in a larger perspective. It also stems from the willingness to observe our negative thoughts and emotions with openness and clarity, so that they are held in mindful awareness. Mindfulness is a non judgmental, receptive mind state in which one observes thoughts and feelings as they are without trying to suppress or deny them, we cannot ignore our pain and feel compassion for it at the same time. At the same time, mindfulness requires that we not be over identified. So self compassion, I think part of what I'm sort of hearing in this is that I think some people misconstrue that self compassion means permission for the behavior you're experiencing.

  Lesley PsyD 9:41

  And when you think about permission, that's an attachment to something not this kind of observational lens that we're talking about. So if it's, there's cups all over my house that have old coffee in them, and I'm allowed to do that, and I give myself permission and I don't care what impact that has a me or anybody else that's a that's an anxious attachment to that as a way to not have to feel as a way to get away from my feelings, or standing back. And being an observer that is not attached to that I can come from a place of compassion, which is like, wow, this is really a challenge for me. Here's the story of how this impacts me and other people. And there's no attachment. There's no end to that story. I'm free. So I love that. That detached observer.

  KC Davis 10:28

  Well, and I'm just curious, like the actual definition of compassion. Let's look it up. Okay. Let's see, let's see. All right, sympathetic pity. I don't love the word pity. But let's go with it. And concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others, who I love that sympathetic concern for the sufferings of others. So what, what we're talking about when we say self compassion is a sympathetic and I would say, sympathetic by nature is gentle, right? A gentle concern for the suffering of ourselves. Right. And I also just think about compassion in general, like this idea that compassion has to be permission or that it will give permission if we're too compassionate. But like, I have felt compassion for people and permission at the same time, right? Like I've looked at moms who are struggling, or young men who are struggling, really anyone and been like, they're giving themselves too hard of a time, they actually should be giving themselves permission to rest, right. But I think sometimes we don't recognize that we're doing two things at once I'm having compassion for their struggle. And I'm feeling sort of permissive or wanting to give them the the, quote, unquote, permission to rest or do whatever or let go of the dishes in the sink, right. But I don't know about you, but like I can, I have had compassion for people that I was not giving permission to. I've listened to actually just heard one recently. And I don't know how accurate the facts of the story is. But I'm just reacting to as if the facts of the story were what I heard. It was this woman who was talking in a court case, and I'm gonna do it just trigger warning, because I'm going to talk about some child abuse, but I'm not going to be graphic. She was describing to the judge in graphic details, how she had abused one of her children, and horrible ways. And she's crying as she says it. And at first, you're just like, horrified. And then you learn that what's happening is that this child was doing the same things or abusing her younger baby, like in really horrific, sadistic ways. And this mom is sort of like, crumbling in the courtroom saying, like, I was trying to say, you know, you don't like it when someone does this to you, and then doing it to him. This child eventually died from the abuse. Now, no part of that do I feel is acceptable, permissive. Okay. And yet, I found myself listening to this mom, who was clearly in pain, who was like thinking about her infant being harmed and tortured continuously, and was kind of at her wit's end and was clearly not equipped, mentally, not support it, like, I felt compassion.

  Lesley PsyD 13:24

  I think that that's an area that we really struggle with, at least in our culture at this time, is the duality of many things that you can be this and that at the same time. And in fact, that's important to be able to separate our compassion, and whether we are signing on to something or saying, oh, yeah, we throw our hands up, that's fine. I do find it. A lot of folks are really struggle with that with others, but especially with themselves.

  KC Davis 13:51

  Well, and I mean, I also felt compassion for that child that had passed away. Right? Like that should not have happened to him. He deserved better. Right? And you have compassion for this tiny little infant, right? Who has no one to protect them except the person that's protecting him in a way that's like not functional at all?

  Lesley PsyD 14:10

  Yeah.

  KC Davis 14:11

  So those are kind of the things that it brings to mind. And specifically going back, like, let's talk about, I saw a video recently of a person who kind of was saying, Gosh, I'm my neighbor's kids, like, keep hanging out outside on the stairwell. They're like two and three, and nobody's watching them. And she goes out with her video camera and sees and one of the little boys has a diaper that's kind of almost falling off covered with fecal matter, and you're just thinking What mother could do this. And I think that's where people's minds go when they go. We can't give that mother permission to be self compassionate.

  Lesley PsyD 14:47

  Yeah, but I think that one of the points you made earlier, so important that that focusing on permission separates us from other people. It does protect us a little bit from having to contemplate that I could never be I could never do that. I don't give permission, I don't I don't make excuses, because that's a whole other thing that I'll never do. Compassion requires that we see our connection. Compassion requires that we see ourselves in that person and imagine what would have had to have happened to take place in order to end there. And I think that that's hard. If you didn't learn that, as a child, or an adolescent, it's hard to be asked to find yourself in someone who is struggling at that level.

  KC Davis 15:27

  Well, and the idea that compassion and accountability can't be together. And here's what it also brings to me. There are people out there, that for whatever reason, whether it is psychological or moral, there's a and it's probably a small percentage, but like, they're just they are doing outright evil things. And they do not care whether they do not care, because they have some sort of psychological, whatever going on, that prevents them from tapping into that empathy, or they just don't, that exists. And I think what a lot of people worry is that what if you know my mother who mistreated me horribly, what if she was listening to Casey Davis and Casey Davis was saying, Oh, let yourself off the hook. Not all moms are perfect, you know, you're doing your best like, then that would have given my mom permission to like, feel right. But in my experience, people who are doing like evil, abusive things to people don't need permission to do them. Not only do they not need permission to do them, like they're going to do them either way. But, you know, they also weren't stopped by shame. They aren't permitted by permission, and they're not stopped by shame. So at some, at some level, like, I don't actually worry that much about some sociopathic person, you know, getting permission, quote, unquote, because like, they're gonna get that permission from themselves from somewhere else, it doesn't matter. I worry more about the person, like the woman that was my client a while back, who relapse on heroin while she was pregnant. And she sat in that group therapy every day, and she could not stop beating herself up, she could not stop being consumed with a feeling of failure and worthlessness. She recognized I have done this horribly harmful thing to my child, she recognized Yes, I have a brain disorder of addiction. And she felt 100% accountable. And I can tell you that sitting in that group over and over and over the majority of the way in which she was not able to show up for her child, the way her child needed at that time, was not related to the fact that she used heroin when she was pregnant. It was related to the fact that she now hated herself to such a degree. She had basically frozen herself psychologically, with how worthless she felt. And we all know what kind of life choices we make when we feel like we're worthless, right? We get with the wrong people, we self sabotage ourselves at work, you know, we don't put in effort to maybe making progress in therapy, because at some point, that motive of I want to get better. But when you're saddled with I don't deserve to be better, right? And so that, of course, is compromising her sobriety. And putting at risk not only not showing up for her kid the way she needs to, but dying, if she relapses again. And I'll never forget her because we're so afraid that if we were to give this mom permission, to have self compassion on herself, to gently look upon her suffering with concern, and kindness, that would lead to her sort of quote, unquote, letting herself off the hook, not taking accountability, not learning how to change her behaviors. But in my experience, we've really got it flip flopped. It is that radical self compassion that allows that mom to stand up and start to recognize what her values are, how her behavior in the past hasn't matched to those values, and not be too ashamed to ask for help changing herself so that she can live up to those values in the future.

  Lesley PsyD 19:35

  Yeah, thank you. No shame is a closed door. It's a period at the end of a sentence. There's nothing that comes after shame. Shame is the reason right because I'm bad because I can't help it because I'm broken. But self compassion leads us to questions like How did it get here and what would have to happen for this to be different? It's an open door. It's it's multiple open doors, in fact, and if we can Learn to view ourselves in that way and each other. I think we start asking the questions that actually do get us moving and are motivating. It's interesting shame really does feel motivating, even though it isn't, that's an interesting phenomenon. It always has been for me. And so it can be hard to break away from that pattern.

  KC Davis 20:19

  You know, I have this weird theory about shame if I ever told you this. So most of the therapists that I practice with talk about how there's really only seven primary emotions, I can think of like a color wheel, there's like, untold, you know, different cues. But they all kind of come back to one of seven emotions. So there's fear, anger, pain, loneliness, joy, guilt, and shame. Now, I actually would replace shame with disgust. Right, like disgust because we feel that for lots of things, and Disgust is this really interesting beast? Because it's both an emotion and, like a sense, like, you know, like, touch, smell disgust. And so when we think about, like, what the role of disgust is, when I think about things that disgust me, you think of like, poop, and vomit, and pus and open sores? And like, what's interesting about that, and is that almost exclusively like, or almost a unanimous, whatever word I'm looking for? It's like all human beings of all cultures experience disgust at these things, almost like it's biological, right? Yeah. And it's smart. Because when I feel disgust, I want to get away from something. And it's really smart for human beings to have this sense of disgust towards things that could get them sick. And I think that some of that overlaps socially, right? Like, what we feel disgust at socially, is typically what society is rejecting or pushing out. And so we don't want to associate with that we don't want to mate with that we don't want to get sort of lumped into the same category. And this is why like, I think when you look at a lot of the phobias, like homophobia, fat phobia, there's a real element of disgust in it. And we want to get out, we want to put that thing as far away from we want to separate ourselves from it, because that's the thing that is going to be pushed out. And we don't want to do that. And I really believe that shame is just disgust at oneself.

  Lesley PsyD 22:31

  And but you can't get away from the thing you're disgusted by,

  KC Davis 22:35

  exactly. You cannot get away from yourself. You believe yourself to be something that is, should be put out should be rejected. And yet, the other part of you is fighting for what is on a very basic level life and death, which is inclusion in your pack. Yeah. And, and so it feels like it feels motivating. Oh, God, I gotta, I gotta stop this, I gotta get away from this, I gotta fix this, or I'm gonna, it's not motivating. It's just panic, panic feels like motivation. Yeah. But I haven't really seen, I mean, you can get a little movement, right? Like, when I scream at my kids, and I feel shame afterwards, there's that this isn't my values. Like, that's like the gift of shame is it tells me when I'm not behaving in line with my values. But that's it. Like, it's just information, shame can give you information. And if we take that information, and then practice self compassion, we can then do something with that information to actually change. But it can only give you information, it can't give you momentum, it can't create change. And so what we do with that information matters, right? Like we depending on what we believe about ourselves, we can either bury the information, oh my God, I don't act within my values, I must be a piece of shit. I just screamed at my kid, I can't let anyone know that I do this, I'm gonna go drink to not feel about it, right. And then it gets worse and worse, or we can go, wow, that's not the kind of parent I want to be. And I'm probably experiencing a universal experience right now. And I'm gonna reach out for help. And I'm going to get support, and I'm gonna figure out what's going wrong so that I can be different.

  Lesley PsyD 24:21

  And that's the small shifts, I think that compassion allows us to have and maybe that's another piece of this is I think it may be difficult for folks to imagine going from a place of shame based behavior, to a place of self compassion. I mean, those seem like polls, but in actuality, self compassion just enables you to make 1000 Tiny shifts, and they don't always have to be in one direction. So I still experience I do this for a living. I talked to amazing people like you I still experience shame. I'm looking at a side of a room right now that does not bring me joy. But when you practice of compassion enough, that shift becomes was very quick and what you what happens starts to happen is I noticed the shame. And I gently shift towards self compassion. It becomes just a learned behavior that you can then pass down to children.

  KC Davis 25:11

  I love it. Thank you so much. This was so wonderful.

  Lesley PsyD 25:14

  Thank you for having me.

  KC Davis 25:15

  Of course.

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai

I’m excited to introduce you to today’s guest. Imani Barbarin is a disability rights and inclusion activist and speaker who uses her platform for conversations around the disability community. I’ve followed her for a while on TikTok and appreciate the way she expresses her opinions and helps educate the rest of us. Come join us now!

Show Highlights:

• How Imani explored and discovered her passion for advocacy for disability and inclusion rights

• How climate change and disability are linked

• Why environmental ableism is a real thing

• How people have become victims of their non-nuanced thinking, only wanting to be on the “right” side

• Why the COVID pandemic has become a “mass-disabling” event, especially regarding mental health

• Examples of ways in which the environmental movement has left those with disabilities behind

• Why society has a general disdain for disabled people and believes that they don’t (or won’t) contribute to society

• How the luxury of abled people trumps the necessity of the disabled

• What the function of capitalism is on disabled bodies

• How disabled people are used as pawns in the pro-choice/pro-life debate

• Why there is inherent racism in the pro-life movement

• What laziness is and is not

Resources:

Connect with Imani: Website and Instagram

Resources mentioned: https://www.sinsinvalid.org, https://disasterstrategies.org, https://www.americanprogress.org 

Connect with KC: TikTok and Instagram

Get KC's Book, How to Keep House While Drowning

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, KC Davis. And I'm taking a well needed break this month. But I want to play for you some of my best episodes my most downloaded. This episode here is called you can't save the rainforest when you're depressed. And it's an incredible conversation with Imani Barbara, and she's a disability rights and inclusion activist and speaker who uses her voice and social media platforms to create conversations engaging the disability community Born with cerebral palsy, Imani often writes and uses her platforms to speak from the perspective of a disabled black woman. So if you are someone who has ever experienced guilt or shame over not being eco perfect, and you need some more accessibility in your life, this conversation is for you. So Imani. First of all, thank you so much for making the time to be here.

  Imani Barbarin 0:48

  Of course, thank you for having me.

  KC Davis 0:50

  I have been following you. I almost said stalking you. But then I thought maybe that was on creepy on Tik Tok. And I really liked your content. And I learned a lot from you. And I really appreciate the way that you express your opinions on things from like several different identities that I learned from. I'm like Saltine, cracker white person. And I feel like I've learned a lot about you from about race. I feel like I've learned a lot about you in the disability realm. And so I'm really grateful to sort of bring your expertise to the next little time we have together.

  Imani Barbarin 1:30

  Oh, thank you. I'm really excited to be on this podcast with you.

  KC Davis 1:33

  So how did you come to a spot where you found yourself advocating for disability

  Imani Barbarin 1:39

  after college? Well, during college, I was kind of exploring my disability identity more, I was just kind of like hit over the head with all of these concepts about disability that had literally changed my entire life. But up until that point, but I had no words to put to it. And so like kind of discovering that language, like I was hungry for it. And I wanted to understand more about myself and my community is also my identity at the crux of being both black and disabled at the time. Well, always but and so like my professors were really excited to like, be like, go go wild with it. Like we don't care like, as long as you just turn in your assignments on time, you can explore whatever part of your disability you're writing. And so I was so grateful for that. Or that after college, I kind of worked as an assistant for a little while, but it wasn't really my thing. And I just started my blog because I really just wanted to write about disability, and just talk about it with somebody, anybody, and just talk about my experiences being black and disabled, and kind of feeling like very isolated growing up. And then from there, I just started promoting it on social media. And here we are.

  KC Davis 2:47

  So one of the things that happened to me when I got on Tik Tok, and I sort of accidentally found this platform where I talk about mental health was that I started talking specifically about the idea of adaptive routines for people with mental health disorders. So you know, the benefit of running your dishwasher every day. So that there's a routine for someone that maybe has ADHD, we talked about the idea of getting paper plates for someone who's too depressed and doesn't have any dishes to eat off of. And really quickly, I started to get a lot of hate comments from people who were saying, you cannot recommend this. It's so bad for the environment. And I understand the initial pushback, right. And so I would sort of say, well, here's the thing, though, we're talking about harm reduction. We're talking about adaptive routines for people with mental health disorders. And but what surprised me, and it's sad to me that it surprised me because what it tells me is that this is the attitude in general, and I just woke up to it in the last year was people would come back and say things like, you being sad is not an excuse to kill the earth with paper plates.

  Imani Barbarin 4:01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's really wrapped up in like white supremacy. And I feel like it's one of the very few things where people are actually passionate about. And so they see, climate change is a threat to the life which touch all of our lives. And so their virulence in their hatred of disabled people, when we say things like, that's just not feasible for us, like we were creating these routines. So it's accessible to us, but it's alarming to say the least.

  KC Davis 4:28

  And what I was doing some reading around that time, and one of the things that sort of jumped out to me and it wasn't specifically about mental health disability, but it was just about disability in general, when it came to climate change. The demographic that is one of the most impacted by the harms of climate change is the disability community. And they were talking specifically about some things that happened like in Hurricane Katrina, where the amount of people that died, who were disabled because they could not get out people could not service them. They did not have any access to the things that they needed was way overblown. In terms of like disability rate in the population like it should it was an unconscionable amount of people with disabilities.

  Imani Barbarin 5:11

  Yeah, I mean, it's always the risk. And so it's always really upsetting when people say the disabled people just don't care about the environment, because we're telling you what we need, but it flies in the face of your performative activism or their performative activism. And then when you look at the actual numbers about it, disabled people are the most affected by climate change. We cannot. I mean, if you ever see videos on Tiktok, there's several videos of like, kids in wheelchairs or kids on crutches and the fire alarm at school goes off, and nobody thinks to grab this kid. Right? If you nobody thinks to grab them. That is literally how we deal with climate change. We leave disabled people behind. And so like this pervasive ableism, behind this environmentalist movement, is really flying in the face of this goal of preserving the earth for all of us. Yeah, I think it's no mistake, either that the two highest groups for disability in the country are indigenous people, for the land back, and black people like to demographics of people who this country has been trying to eradicate, for centuries, have the highest rates of disability, if people who consider themselves environmentalist, have no problem doing away with these demographics and people?

  KC Davis 6:22

  And I mean, if I had to guess it would seem obvious that the role of white supremacy is a huge role in why these populations are seeing higher rates of disability. Oh, yeah,

  Imani Barbarin 6:35

  I mean, environmental ableism is real, if you don't have access to clean drinking water, that means disability, if you don't have access to doctors that believe you, that's disability, if you've structural racism, from institutions, that's disability, so it ableism and racism are interwoven so deeply, that it's alarming to me that people will be so overtly ableist and then claim themselves to be anti racist. You can't be one without the other.

  KC Davis 7:04

  Do you ever feel like sometimes as white people, like, we want so badly to be oppressed? And maybe we found that in environmentalism?

  Imani Barbarin 7:14

  Yeah, I think it's two things. I think that like, white people want to be oppressed. And so they found They latched on to environmentalism. But simultaneously, it's one of the few things that when you advocate for it, it doesn't have a voice of its own to disagree with you to say that you're not advocating for me correctly. It's more of a pet. Yes, the pro life movement of the left, like the perfect victim.

  KC Davis 7:39

  So because as a white person, I get to be simultaneously the victim and to the Savior. Yes, exactly. And who wouldn't want that. And I know that people sometimes bristle at the idea that white people want to be oppressed, but I'm someone who came from the evangelical church, I still very much a person of faith, but I'm sort of deconstructing my evangelicalism. And I've never been offended by that only because like, when you go to church, and the pastor tells you, like, you're on the right side, you're for God, but they don't know. And they want to stop you. And you know, we're gonna persevere. And we're this and it's like, that feels good.

  Imani Barbarin 8:17

  Yeah, it does. I mean, I grew up in the church. So I'm very familiar with all of the same rhetoric that you are. And one of the things about white supremacy is that it lacks nuance. And so whenever you think of yourself as the Savior, or is the one helping on the righteous side, everybody else is on the wrong side, right? It's not through, there's nuance to literally everything. And so when white people position themselves as environmentalists, and people were fighting back and be like, Listen, this is not as inclusive as you think it is, then everybody else is wrong, is is the exact same positioning, regardless of the argument.

  KC Davis 8:52

  It's the trump card, it's the ace of spades, as long as I'm on the right side. And you know, it's interesting, I see sort of queues of that show up a lot and some other content where somebody comes in at the most recent one was we were talking about like the breast is best campaign. And people come in, and they really think as long as I'm on what I believe to be the quote, unquote, right side of this information. It doesn't matter who I'm harming. Like, I'm absolved of who I harm who I step over, as long as at the end of the day in this sort of black and white non nuanced thinking. I'm on the right side of the issue.

  Imani Barbarin 9:29

  Yeah, exactly. And I think that I've seen some of this most like, disgusting ableism and racism towards the indigenous community here is demanding land back and rightfully so. Like every single indigenous practice, regardless of other malted meat or not, is more sustainable than what white people are proposing. You get people ignore them? Because it's more comfortable to believe that you're in the right simply because you're you're saying something when you're not like, you know, these practices have been in place for 1000s of years and simply just have the arrogance to say, to look at a community who's been living with so few resources for so long, based off of ancient practices and just be like, No, I don't like that at discount it. It doesn't apply to me. Like, that's arrogance. That's white supremacy. And it will kill us, who will literally kill us if we do not listen to communities who've been doing this for centuries.

  KC Davis 10:23

  So one of the things that I heard you say one time and a tick tock, you said that COVID is not just a mass mortality event. COVID is a mass disabling event. And I thought about that for days. And, you know, it's obviously a physically mass disabling event, we have people who are now long haulers with their physical health. But the other thing that I thought about was that it's also mass disabling psychologically, oh, 100%, like the amount of people that never dealt with mental health symptoms, or maybe were able to manage these mental health symptoms, are finding themselves struggling in a way that they weren't before, because of all the circumstances around COVID. And I thought that was such a thing we don't talk about. Yeah,

  Imani Barbarin 11:07

  I mean, I would even argue that people who never were diagnosed with COVID have exacerbated mental health symptoms, because of this sheer isolation if you're taking it seriously. And so there's going to be ton of people that are, you know, coming out of this, you know, with agoraphobia, and anxiety and depression. And I think that people are at a breaking point, you know, in terms of the mental health, which is very scary, because we simultaneously do not have any infrastructure for mental health care in this country. Like, I think I read somewhere that, you know, our prison system is the largest mental health system in the country. Does that why why? Why is that a thing? And so yeah, there's gonna be tons of people who are dealing with mental health care for the very first time, who don't know how to reach out to a healthcare provider. And because hospitals or get again, at capacity, are not gonna be able to get to see a mental health care provider, or, you know, be admitted if they choose to, for mental health care. So, yeah, we really don't know the long lasting repercussions of COVID. societally, interpersonally, we won't know those things until decades from now.

  KC Davis 12:12

  And one of the things that I found sort of fascinating was when people push back so hard on this idea of adaptive routines, you know, when I thought about this term, eco ableism, you know, what came to mind for me was sort of the plastic straw debate, which was sort of my most recent memory of the big environmental push that sort of left people with disabilities behind. And that was a big conversation. And so I'm curious if you know, for someone who's listening, that maybe this is their first time thinking about these types of issues. Can you give us other examples of ways in which the environmental movement has left people with disabilities behind?

  Imani Barbarin 12:54

  Yeah, I mean, so first of all, the straw bans were my personal health, but I never, I never want to talk about them again. or dislike them. I don't ever want to talk about them again. But no, I mean, I do all the time, because people just never let it die. So even you know, environmental preparation routines that people tweet out, or ableist, because they simply do not take into account like one of the recommendations for people to prepare for an emergency environmental disaster, is to collect one month's worth of medications, In what world, people are struggling to pay for insulin from month to month, and you're asking somebody to just save some insulin for literally a rainy day. That's not possible, you know, there needs to be infrastructure with that. And people always like, well, you could just siphon off a little bit here and there like this, no medication works. There's also the idea that single use plastics, like you said, are unnecessary to disabled people, disabled people we pay 28% More of our income, then non disabled people just to have the same quality of life. Because of inaccessibility, it little things like having to do the dishes, having to take the trash out and having a cleaner to help us. I'm having an assistant to help us. And people are like, well, you're contributing to plastics, why can't you just wash the dishes like everybody else? Because we can't do everything like everybody else you can try to tell I go and people get really belligerent when you bring up that fact. And I always kind of throw back in people's face, you know, although kn 95. All of these, you know, medical masks that we're not wearing for COVID-19 that doctors are wearing, keep you safe or maybe have a plastic. There's far less pushback when it comes to keeping non disabled people live than it is to keep disabled people live because we they do not believe we deserve to live in their heart of hearts. And that was one of the things that's so dangerous about ableism is that we are taught from a very young age to praise eugenics in our society. And the minute the minute, you ask somebody how their beliefs impact the disability community If they're progressive, they almost always flip on a dime, and start acting like, we don't deserve to live like literally on a dime. I've talked to people who are pro choice. And then as soon as I bring up the fact that Disabled Parents want to keep in half, they're having keep their children to be like, Oh, well, they should be sterilized, like literally on a dime. And that instinct is going to harm our entire society. Because when we think about, like I said before the racial breakdowns of disability, you cannot be anti racist without being anti ablest. And so the same thing applies to environmentalism, if you're telling a certain group of people that the way that they survive, everyday life doesn't matter, and that they should do what you tell them to do. Without any sort of alternatives that are actually feasible to that community, you're literally saying to them, I don't care if you live or die, because a lot of the things that people think is frivolous for the disability community is quite literally life and death for us. And so that instinct is going to do more harm than it could ever do any good.

  KC Davis 16:04

  You know, what it reminds me of is, every time somebody dies of COVID, the first thing that gets asked is well, did they have any underlying health conditions?

  Imani Barbarin 16:13

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. 100%. And people will say that automatically, I'm like, does my life matter any less? Because they did, or, and people really do tell on themselves? When they ask that question.

  KC Davis 16:24

  And I get why they're asking, I think there's this fear of, I want to believe this can't happen to me, I want to other myself, like, if I'm not somebody that has some type of disability, then maybe I don't have to deal with the existential anxiety around the fact that I too, can die.

  Imani Barbarin 16:43

  Yeah, and that's that cockiness. Again, because we're in America, like, the sudden matter of fact, is that not a lot of us have access to regular health care. So the idea that somebody can walk around thinking they're healthy is just false. If you haven't been to the doctor in a year, you have no idea what's going on what underlying conditions you have, even if you are seeing your doctor regularly, you may or may not know what's actually going on with your body. So the idea that is only immunocompromised people dying is only immunocompromised people that we know of.

  KC Davis 17:13

  Well, and when you talk about COVID being a mass disabling event, even for people that don't get COVID Think about the amount of women that didn't get their mammograms and 2020. Because, you know, the risk benefit at the time was, you know, let's not go out, let's not go to the doctor, let's push anything that's not urgent. And like some of those women have cancer that was not caught.

  Imani Barbarin 17:34

  Exactly. You know, even people who because there's certain medications, you have to be blood tested for me never gotten those medications, you know, the people who have lupus, and who want hydrochloric, when was trending or whatever, could not get their medication, their illnesses, were exacerbated as well. People who cannot get chemo treatments because hospitals aren't capacity. People who cannot even like minor things can turn into disabilities, if they're not treated. And with hospitals, that capacity, that's more likely to happen. So you can never say from one day to the next that you're not disabled, that's just not possible.

  KC Davis 18:10

  I'm still really like stuck on your comment about how, you know, when we talk about what the general public are, what a healthy person needs to stay healthy. no one bats an eye, even if that's a bunch of plastic. Everyone needs a mask. Now, everyone needs gloves now. Okay, let's do it. Because, you know, we have to obviously, if you tell them that same person, that somebody with a disability needs something with a disposable plastic to live, you're totally right, we do have this attitude of, well, you're just making it up, or you're just being indulgent. Or you can find another way. And I think I'm truly simultaneously blown away at that connection. And like, sad at the knowledge that obviously, that's true. And I feel like I wake up to pieces of this more and more.

  Imani Barbarin 18:58

  Yeah, it's one of the most upsetting things to learn about society. Is that like, you know, I remember somebody said to my video and said, like, I did not believe you when you said that most people hate disabled people. And I was like, yeah, that's not something I lightly say, I may be jokingly making a joke or be sarcastic about it. But it's very cool. This disdain that society has that, you know, the thing that society hates most about disabled people is that we've survived it despite his best efforts to kill us. And that's the truth. And so whenever people question what we do to stay alive, they're really questioning, why are you alive? Like, why? If your life is going to mean mine, then why would somebody less than me want to stay alive?

  KC Davis 19:43

  I mean, and not to mention, you know, we haven't even touched on how much capitalism has to do with this. Because if I'm taught from a young age that I'm only worth what I'm able to produce when I'm able to work. I mean, obviously, then that belief I'm going to color the way that I see someone who in my view, can't produce or can't contribute in the way that I can or even at all,

  Imani Barbarin 20:07

  you have not only can't but there's this perception that, you know, disabled people really aren't as disabled as we say we are and that we won't contribute as much as we should, which is a very important distinction, because then we, you know, we restrict social safety nets, based on this perception that people won't contribute if they get the necessary resources, or they won't participate in work, or life if they have access to health care, which is why our health care is actually tied to our employment because of racism. Because a lot of jobs, a lot of these jobs that came with health insurance, were mostly filled by white people. And that's why our healthcare is tied to our employment epoch. Yeah, capitalism is really like a mind bender. When you think about the ways in which disability plays a role in a lot of people disabled themselves with this idea to do they need to hustle and prove that they're better than everybody else, or prove that they're not as lazy as those other people who were just leeches on the system or whatever. So all around is very damaging. One of

  KC Davis 21:09

  the things that I heard you say in a tick tock was you were talking about cuz sometimes people will say, well, obviously, if someone needs that plastic, they can have it, but the rest everybody else should be. And I thought you had a really interesting point where you said, like, we can't play that game.

  Imani Barbarin 21:24

  Yeah, one of the things that, like, it should be abundantly clear to everybody is that things do not become available to disabled people, unless non disabled people want them, you know, work from home, telemedicine, all these things only became available, because it became necessary for non disabled people. Now transfer that over to the plastic and you know, recycling debate. If we don't have plastic straws, if you don't have plastic cutlery or paper plates, there's no way disabled people are getting them, because not only will they not be available, but also many places, they'll just be scarce, which means the price will go up, which means a lot of disabled people won't be able to afford them. And contrary to popular belief, not a lot of us have, you know, access to assistance or aides are people that will help us like this not a thing that happens. So they're literally like, piece by piece, a piece of plastic with a piece of glass, like killing off disabled people with a lot of their ideas. When you

  KC Davis 22:18

  talk about sort of exploring your identity as a disabled person, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on what I'm about to say next. Because whenever I talk on my channel about adaptive routines, and I talk about things like if what's gonna get you to eat today is a prepackaged salad. Like you need to buy the pre packaged salad. And when I get pushback from people about, you know, disposable toothbrushes, and they'll say, Well, you know, you can't promote this to people, because, you know, we're all going to kill the world, our disposable toothbrushes, but one of the things that I find is that a lot of people and this might be true of other disabilities, too, but in particular, a lot of people that I see with mental health disabilities, they don't quite know, whether they are disabled enough to deserve what they see as well. You can have it if you quote unquote, really need it.

  Imani Barbarin 23:11

  Yeah, that's something I see a lot in my advocacy is that at least people, you know, who are coming into their disability identity will tell me Oh, I didn't know that. Like, I could do that. And we're also it's not funny, but it's also kind of very just sad in a way, because whenever we hear functioning labels as disabled people, particularly in like the Disability Justice Movement, we cringe, because this is the purpose of those functioning labels, like high functioning, low functioning, is this way of setting up a hierarchy of who needs help and who does not. And we reinforce it every single day with our language, and with our perceptions of what high functioning versus low functioning people need. And people think that just because they're on one end of a spectrum versus the other, they don't need as many supports, or they'll pass judgment on somebody else for navigating the world in a different way, by saying, Oh, they're less than they just, they're worse off than me. When in reality, you just need what you need. Right? Like, you don't need to add qualifiers to you don't need to beg for acceptance from non disabled people, because honest to god, I do not care what those people think, like, I have to survive them every single day, you think I'm gonna give them the peace of purchase in my brain as well. Like, they don't have a lot of land up there. They just know like, I don't care. So you got like these functioning levels play like a very serious role in the way that we talk about disability. And people don't even understand like once they come into their disability identity, just how ingrained they are in us and how damaging they are. But I really hope that people kind of deconstruct that, because you're going to need what you're going to need you're not better or less than anybody else. Some people have more accessibility needs. Some people have less. Some people need to need plastic straws. Some people need like sippy cups like It doesn't stop passing judgment on what you need to survive. You're just do what you have to do to survive this, the only thing people can ask of you.

  KC Davis 25:07

  One of the things that was really hard for me postpartum both times with my kids was brushing my teeth. And I actually got postpartum depression and anxiety with my second who was born three weeks before the pandemic. And it was, the word that comes to mind now is suffering, like, it was so difficult, it was so hard. And I'm someone who for the most part, like I had addiction, really, really early on, I had some sort of diagnoses floating around. But then like, for the most part of my adult life was pretty stable, mentally, physically and otherwise. So to go through this pandemic, and all of a sudden feel like I'm not that stable anymore, despite being a therapist being mature, having all of this, you know, education and experience was interesting. And it was it got harder and harder. And I've tried lots of sort of, Oh, I'll put my toothbrush in the sink at the kitchen, I'll put it on my list of closing duties. And what I finally did a couple weeks ago, because I started having tooth pain, and I was like, I'm gonna have to go back to the dentist, I also have a complete phobia of dental work, I broke down and bought myself a box of 144 prepasted toothbrushes, and for the first time in 18 months, I've been brushing my teeth every day. And so I also have ADHD. So I think there's some executive functioning issues around it and you know, not having a nine to five job where you have the get up, go to the vanity, do your things. And I found myself even though I talk all the time about, you know, you need what you need, you know, using resources, it's not wasting resources, you need what you need, I have had so much guilt over it. I haven't even made a tech talk about it, because I thought I just I can't justify it, I'll never be able to convince people that I'm not just this wasteful. And what I did in my mind to try and sort of resolve this, like cognitive dissidence was I started thinking about, Okay, what in my life, could I take out, I'll stop using paper towels, I'll that's what I'll do. I'll stop using paper towels, and I'll stop getting Starbucks. And that way, it'll sort of even out so I'm not doing more. And that'll be my justification that I can tell people's Well, I cut these things out. So I'm not really my footprint isn't bigger. And what hit me all at once was, Oh, my God, paper towels. And Starbucks cups are not morally superior to prepasted toothbrushes. And yet, somebody somewhere who is able bodied able mind set the acceptable usage of plastic and said, You know, nobody is going to judge you for using paper towels. And there might be some people that will roll their eyes at your disposable Starbucks cup, but like you getting takeout once a week, nobody is going to come and give you a death threat for that.

  Imani Barbarin 27:44

  Yeah. And that's a wildest thing about ableism to me is that ableism is so pervasive that people I have never met in my life, people I will never meet people I don't even know don't even have a concept of cannot even imagine their faces have an effect on how I live my life. Because we have been recycling these exact same perceptions, about disability about wastefulness over and over and over again, people who do not like who people who I would not blink twice, that are shaping the way in which I live my life, so I feel less guilty for them.

  KC Davis 28:22

  I don't know. It's just wild to me that somebody who is you know, I want this is the best ever. I one time had a woman shame me for saying that I ran my dishwasher even when it wasn't full, because that's what allows me to overcome the executive dysfunction of like being able to keep up with my dishes. And I went to her page, I'm not kidding you and money. She was a travel blogger. You gotta be kidding me. This woman had been on at least eight airplanes in two years.

  Imani Barbarin 28:52

  No, no, no. See, that's the thing, like, because that's the thing, like, their luxury. Trump's your necessity.

  KC Davis 29:01

  Like, I'm just trying to brush my teeth over here. I know that if people have these ideas that maybe if I tried harder, I could do it in a more sustainable way. And I get it because I have those own internal voices. But I finally did almost take my own medicine and go Well, Casey, you know what, it's been 18 months. And it's been at least eight months of you trying with self compassion, but very much trying to find a routine in your life that will make this part of your health successful. And at the end of the day, they're probably going to use just as much disposable plastic to fix your fucking teeth at the dentist. If you don't stop, I'm gonna find a way to brush your teeth.

  Imani Barbarin 29:38

  Completely because I have trouble brushing my teeth too. When I get into depressive episodes, I have generalized anxiety disorder. And then I also have what they like to affectionately call double depression. So like I struggle with the same things. And I also grind my teeth when I'm stressed out. So like I remember like, just my teeth were so bad. I bitten to a chip in it. cracked my tooth, like in half. So my teeth are like, very sensitive, because of the sheer amount of anxiety that I've had my entire life. So I understand completely like the in the amount of like plastic bags that go into, you know, you're getting your free, you know, take home toothbrush after you for hours. Team and you're just like, well, I guess it is what it is now? Yeah, like, Why does her luxury, she's doing worse for the planet than you are doing just to survive your day. Like the audacity it takes to look at somebody else's life and be like, well, you're ruining the planet. I don't do any of those things. But I'm gonna go to Bali for like two weeks, and I'm going to not pay as much for food to underpaid, you know, the workers that are indigenous to that area. And, you know, right on a moped,

  KC Davis 30:51

  yeah, the issue really isn't that there's an objective amount of waste you're allowed to produce, it's that you can't produce it as a disabled person.

  Imani Barbarin 31:01

  Right? That's wild. Listen, any space you take up when people do not expect you to live is too much space for other people, they do not care. They think that you know, you living is a luxury, it is a privilege, and they can take it away from you at any second and pass judgments of your entire time here. And then with a real messed up part is when they use your life, to inspire themselves, but leave you in the US.

  KC Davis 31:30

  So you get to be inspiration porn, that's like the role that capitalism has made acceptable. Like, that's the only acceptable role.

  Imani Barbarin 31:37

  Yeah, I always say inspiration. exploitation is enable a society placing value on a disabled life where in which they do not find any otherwise. That's the function of capitalism on disabled bodies, if we take advantage of these stories, and we present them to disabled people and non disabled people and say, they're both for the grace of God go on, you know, that type of thinking, when in reality, we've left disabled people to die at every turn in this country. And your inspiration, is you just surviving that.

  KC Davis 32:10

  And I mean, we haven't even touched on the reality that the individual carbon footprint is like laughably, since like, 20%, right? Not really going to turn things around, for better or for worse, is really just not going to have an impact if we can't move things at a political level. And it must be scary that the people who are willing to move things at a political level still manage to leave people with disabilities behind.

  Imani Barbarin 32:40

  Oh, yeah, like, the reason why I don't revisit the straw man argument very often, is because we got death threats, like, people were telling us, oh, you should kill yourself. Disabled people don't deserve to live anyways, we'll just let them die off over straws. Like is the most absurd thing like when you just say like, it's just over straws, but it was true people were telling us that, you know, will compassionately euthanize disabled people. And if it comes to it, like,

  KC Davis 33:08

  it's like the liberal version of when conservatives blow up abortion clinics, because they don't believe in murder, right? Like, they kill doctors or like, rally, he was a murderer.

  Imani Barbarin 33:17

  Right? Like, and that's the scary thing. Like I said, people will shift their beliefs, the instant disability is introduced, and that instinct is gets a lot of people killed all the time,

  KC Davis 33:28

  you can walk so far to the left, that you just look back around and hang out with eugenics.

  Imani Barbarin 33:33

  Right? Like, we're kidding. When we say like people believe in eugenics, like hardcore, they really do. They do not think that they're just as bad as some other people. Because like we said before, white supremacy lacks nuance. So if I'm in the right, everybody else is in the wrong.

  KC Davis 33:50

  That's super fascinating. And you know, with the conversation right now, with the Texas abortion ban, one of the things you know, when you and you were recently talking about the rate of sexual assault on the disabled community, and how you know, when we get sort of blindly without nuance into something without being able to consider a disability, and you were talking about how sometimes sterilization was about preventing sexual assault. And one of the things that came to my mind was that it was so horrible, this politician, basically using the excuse that, you know, I think it was like up to 40% of people or babies with Down syndrome are aborted once that found out that they have Down syndrome. And he was trying to sort of conflate like, this is why this is a really righteous like, we can't let anybody get abortions, which was really kind of disgusting, but there is this side of abortion where you can get so blindly pro choice that you don't stop to have the nuanced conversation about the amount of ableism that goes into that choice when it comes to, you know, being able to fight I doubt that your fetus in utero has a disability.

  Imani Barbarin 35:01

  Yeah, and the abortion debate is very tricky for a lot of disabled people. Because, you know, I had relatives telling my mom to abort me when my mom thought I would likely be disabled and but my mom and I are both pro choice regardless, like my mom still carried me to term, but she's very pro choice. But my mom always reiterated to me like growing up like I wanted you like, I still want you, I want you as my daughter. But I still reserve the right to have a choice and for you to have a choice. And people really lack those conversations. And it's really irritating. Just how often disabled people are used as pawns in this argument over pro choice or pro life, and nobody really asks us what we need. You know, not a lot of disabled people even get sexual education. Not a lot of disabled people even get sexual health care. When I was talking about the story about people who sterilized disabled people, it's not to prevent rape is to prevent children, they're not meant to prevent the rake, they're just trying to prevent the children. And like, that's the more devastating part is like, they're not even trying to address the root issue to a lot of these problems. They know that the abuse is gonna continue, they just don't want any children birth and disabled people.

  KC Davis 36:11

  And the politician that was talking about, you know, uh, well, you know, it's just so ableist to abort a Down syndrome, a fetus that has Down syndrome. And it always comes across to me like, it's this like, gotcha moment, like, we know that the lefties are into not being able to. So what do you say now? Gotcha. And it is not it is being upon

  Imani Barbarin 36:34

  it is also a miscalculation of the left to cause like they will 100%. What are you talking about? Like, yeah, what of it? Exactly. But I think one of the things that is so irritating about that argument about people with Down syndrome being aborted is that like, if they had the social services in place, where disabled people to survive, once we take our first breath, rather than us just being in utero, less people would probably make that decision. Like, the nature of us being pawns in a lot of these arguments, is to just ignore us once we're alive regardless. So I don't like I hate that argument. Because I know how difficult of a decision it is for a lot of, you know, pregnant people to make that choice, whether to have an abortion, and to have an abortion, whether because it's a disabled child, or might just be a disabled child, it was a hard decision to make. And I think that people just erase the fact that if we did better by disabled people who were alive already, people would not feel as pressured to make that decision.

  KC Davis 37:42

  Yeah, that's kind of the breakdown of the whole pro life argument in general, which is, if you really wanted to reduce the amount of abortions, you would make it not suck so bad to be a parent. Yeah, who was unsupported or and a child who can't, doesn't get the social safety net?

  Imani Barbarin 38:00

  Well, I mean, it also points to the racism of the pro life movement, which is that they don't expect these children who these unwanted children, these pregnancies that are carried to term out of the soul and, and strife to actually be members of slidy, a lot of these children are shuffled into the prison system, like that's the entire point. You know, a lot of white people want a white ethno state, and then to arrest and incarcerate children of color, then, like, that's the end point. And so like, even the argument that we're trying to make is, you know, irrespective of this idea that race plays a role, it very much so plays a role. And I think the right has projected outwards decades, what they hope this moment in history will do for white supremacy. And so yeah,

  KC Davis 38:50

  you know, you started our conversation by talking about how, for lack of a better term, anti ableist. And what I think has been interesting is, as we've been talking, we're sort of naturally not even jumping, but like we're naturally having to talk a little bit about white supremacy and talk a little bit about the abortion debate, talk a little bit about indigenous rights talk a little bit about and it's, it really is so entwined, and I feel like well, I want to thank you, because I feel as though even having this conversation with you has been illustrative of that, that it's just been even impossible. It's like we can't sit down and go, Okay, we're just gonna talk about eco ableism for 45 minutes. No, like, by necessity, we had to sort of foray into all these other identity intersections and issues and so that I feel like that sort of makes your point so beautifully.

  Imani Barbarin 39:46

  It's one of those things where like, weather always makes fun of me because if anybody triggers a disability conversation to me, I will always bring up my statistics about how it affects racially. I mean, that's also the reason why we're seeing a lot of these Republican bills that look like how to menus on how to exclude disabled people, because a lot of the areas that they're excluding, and cutting and restricting voting access, fall along the lines of things that have aided disabled people in particular disabled people of color in voting in past elections. So yeah, it all connects. And I think that disability is kind of like the crux of a lot of different movements that I don't think people really realize can be used against them. Because like I said, that instinct is very frightening. And it will turn on a dime, to say, Oh, those people don't matter. But then we actually look at the numbers, you actually be like, Oh, crap, that would actually eradicate an entire group of people.

  KC Davis 40:41

  And I feel like ability, in particular, physical or mental ability is always like the unrecognized privilege. Like anytime I've brought up issues of privilege on any of my content channels, there's always like, the disaffected, lower income white person that's like, I really didn't have privilege, because they kind of do their list. Or I, sometimes I get it from women where they'll say, you know, if I can keep my house clean, you should be able to keep your house clean. And at the end of the day, they're like, Well, I didn't have any privileges, I can't afford a maid, you know, I didn't have these things. And you're like, the fact that you can stand for 10 minutes is a privilege.

  Imani Barbarin 41:23

  Yeah, I call them. I like to make fun of non disabled people a lot, just to keep them on their toes. And I call them like, celebrating their default setting, like, really good defaults, like, I get it, you could do all these things. But like, I don't care, I'm still gonna have to do what I have to do. Because the truth of the matter is, is because of a lot of the Savior behavior, they believe that there's always going to be somebody to help. That's just not true, that there's always gonna be somebody that will rise above and, you know, really make a difference. And social media has really impacted and kind of warped our perception of how we as a society help one another because we're doing a lot of this stuff on camera, we're filming people at their worst moments needing help, for likes. And people seem to think that that's the norm. It's not like that's not normal, but it's not normal, that people are gonna just rush up to me and help me, most of the time, people are just grabbing at me for fun. So it's not like people are going to actually be grabbing at me to help me nine times out of 10. And if they do, sometimes they actually wind up hurting me. So this idea that, like people have resources that we need, and we're just taking advantage of the system is kind of this pervasive idea that kind of started with Reagan. And you know, the welfare queen stereotype which is extended to black women, particularly who were disabled, that were leeches on the system, and that anybody who's taking advantage of a social safety net, doesn't actually need it, Reagan, it can be traced to a lot of ableism of the country, in the United States, particularly the way he weaponized racial stereotypes along the axis of disability.

  KC Davis 43:00

  I feel like so if you're someone who's listening to this podcast, and you're resonating with maybe some of the things we've talked about, about, you know, you need what you need. And you're still kind of hearing that inner voice that says, Oh, not me, no, I think maybe I'm just lazy. I just want to take a minute to say that as a therapist, I've seen so many clients, I've seen so many clients with mental health issues with addiction, seeing clients with physical disabilities, and I have to say, I've never met someone who's truly lazy.

  Imani Barbarin 43:30

  There's no such thing. Like, there's really no such thing as lazy. There are people that can, and there are people that just are not able to. And we have this perception that they won't, again, there's going back to this idea that people just won't do the right thing. Whereas there's not enough services is of course, for people to be able to survive. And so they're just struggling all the time.

  KC Davis 43:51

  Yeah. And I always say like, don't get me wrong. I mean, entitlement exists. Exploitation exists. There are definitely people out there that feel like they have more right to labor to leisure and rest than somebody else does. And so it really should be these people were breaking their backs and working so that I can rest. But that's not laziness. That's entitlement. Yeah. Right. Like the person listening to this podcast, who's like, Oh, God, I think I would probably finally get my teeth brushed. If I had prepasted toothbrush. It's like, you're not lazy. That's not it. Like the things that you're thinking, you would help you survive the day with meet your basic needs. That's not laziness.

  Imani Barbarin 44:31

  It's just you creating accessibility where you can. Like, that's the goal. That's what you need to have happen. So like, stop passing judgment on yourself. I mean, honestly, like my mom, my dad, always I have ADHD too. So my brain like, I'm gonna diagnose you, but I'm 100% certain the way my brain works like it's just but my dad used to tell me like I used to hate going to the gym. I still hate going to the gym to terrible degree. I really hate it for my dad. I always used to say, Who cares what they think they're not going to be there when you're struggling, none of these people who were staring at you none of these people were passing judgment on, you would never lift a finger to help you at all. So why are you keep taking into account what they think about what you need to do to survive? When they're not gonna be there,

  KC Davis 45:19

  you need what you need, right? So there's probably some other people listening that maybe aren't necessarily resonating with that message. But they're realizing that they have never really given a ton of conscious thought to ableism, or to eco ableism, or maybe just ableism in general. And I'm curious if someone's listening, and they're thinking, Oh, my gosh, these are concepts that I have totally never thought before, but totally seems like something I should be aware of. Do you have any recommendations on where you think someone should start if they wanted to educate themselves further, or if they wanted to sort of do the work to not be a part of movements in a way in such a way that they leave behind the disabled population?

  Imani Barbarin 45:59

  Yeah, absolutely. So I always recommend since aamva, leads Disability Justice work, they are excellent. There's also an organization called the strategic partnership for occlusive disaster strategies. They're working out of Louisiana right now. And they work internationally to prepare disabled people in particularly for natural disasters and climate change. They're run for and by disabled people, which is remarkable to see people in wheelchairs, like climbing rubble to get other disabled people out. Props to them always. There's also several articles that I wrote about climate change and disability. There's a couple of articles on my website on the straw ban, which again, I refuse to revisit, it's traumatizing. There's a climate change article about disabled people. There's the Center for American Progress also does a lot of pieces on the intersection of disability and climate change, as well as disability justice in general. They have a disability justice initiative that you can look at. So there's just some of the research just off the top of my head.

  KC Davis 46:57

  And where can they find you if they want to follow you? Oh,

  Imani Barbarin 47:00

  my website is crutches and spice.com at Imani underscore Barbara and on Twitter, and then at Coaches underscore and underscore spice on Tiktok and Instagram.

  KC Davis 47:10

  Awesome. Well, Imani, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed our conversation. And I always love when other people with ADHD are on the podcast with me because I feel like oh, we can just be ourselves. We can just non sequitur through the next hour together.

  Imani Barbarin 47:26

  I love that.

  KC Davis 47:29

  That's awesome. Well, thank you so much. And I am going to say goodbye to everyone now

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Today, we are diving into executive functioning, which is a popular term being bounced around in mental health communities. I want to take a closer look at what it means and how it shows up in people’s lives. Join me to learn more from today’s guest!

Dr. Lesley Cook is a psychologist who does a lot of work with ADHD and other neurodivergencies. Born and raised in Hawaii, she now lives in Virginia and works with children, adolescents, adults, couples, and families. Dr. Lesley and I met on TikTok, and I’m happy to have her here today!

Show Highlights:

• A common-language definition and explanation of executive functioning

• How executive function deficits show up in someone’s life

• How shame, guilt, and inconsistent performance are clues to executive function problems

• The difference between motivation and task initiation

• Why the underlying issue with lack of motivation is more about what a person values

• How a person’s sense of self is affected when they believe their authentic self is “bad”

• Why external supports are necessary when an internal system is down

• Why rhythm is better than routine for those with executive function disorder

• How neurotypical people experience interruptions with executive functioning on a regular basis because of overload and anxiety

• How blips in executive function occur in neurotypical people with predictability and response to intervention—as opposed to someone with a diagnosis

• How someone with ADHD can have incredible deficits in executive function on days when everything is going their way–and won’t respond reliably to normal interventions

• How to build into each day differing levels of acceptable outcomes–and give yourself permission to choose what fits your needs at that moment

• Lesley’s advice to those who think they have executive functioning issues

Resources: 

Connect with Dr. Lesley: TikTok and Instagram

Connect with KC: TikTok and Instagram

Get KC's Book, How to Keep House While Drowning

Find great resources about executive functioning: 

 www.understood.org, www.psychologytoday.com, and https://chadd.org/

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. I'm your host, KC Davis. I'm taking a break this month for making new content. And in the meantime, I want to play for you some of my most downloaded episodes. This episode is my most downloaded by far. It's my first episode. It's about executive functioning. Maybe you've heard of it, maybe you're kind of wondering exactly what it means. Well, I brought Dr. Lesley cook on to the podcast to talk about this. Dr. Cook has experience working with children, adolescents, adults, couples families, she's worked in a variety of settings, including schools, testing centers, private practice, and administrative and supervisory roles. She has a particular passion for working with individuals of all ages with neuro divergence. So Autism Spectrum Disorder, ADHD, learning disorders, and she has extensive experience providing professional trainings in this area. So buckle up, get a drink of water, take care of yourself and enjoy this conversation about executive functioning.

  Hello, you sentient balls of stardust, welcome. I'm so excited for this episode, because I have Dr. Lesley Cook, who is a psychologist, and she does a lot of work with ADHD and other neuro divergences and actually met her on Tik Tok. So Lesley, thank you for being here.

  Lesley PsyD 1:18

  Thank you for having me, this is really exciting for me, because I feel the same way about you and your content. So this is going to be a great talk.

  KC Davis 1:26

  Oh, I'm so excited. So I wanted specifically for us to talk about executive functioning, because I feel like it's a real buzzword right now. Or buzz words, sort of floating around the mental health community. And I really wanted to learn more about it, I have such sort of like a cursory knowledge of it as a therapist, but I have heard you in your content, talk about executive functioning. And I just thought, you know, this is someone who I really want to sort of pick their brain, about the way that executive functioning shows up in people's lives and the way that it relates to trying to do everyday care tasks.

  Lesley PsyD 2:05

  Yeah, I think that this is an area that is both extremely exciting for me that people care about, because I don't think it would have been a buzzword a year or two ago. So that makes me happy. But I also love that we're going to talk about how it applies both to people with diagnoses, but also just to folks in general, because if you have a central nervous system, you have to use these functions on a daily basis.

  KC Davis 2:27

  So what's interesting is that I used to run a family program for a drug rehab. And one of the things that we would talk about was about how we had this little Did y'all ever do this, it was like the hand, like made the fist to talk about like the different parts of the brain.

  Lesley PsyD 2:44

  Yep.

  KC Davis 2:44

  And we'd be like, Okay, this is the brainstem by your wrist and your little thumb coming over is sort of the seat of like the instincts and the fight or flight. And then your prefrontal cortex is the front, except when I was talking about that to clients and families, what I was focusing on what's actually the fight or flight aspect of it, and talking about how when your fight or flight gets triggered, you kind of go, your frontal cortex goes offline. And since that's the part of our brain responsible for impulse control, and sort of cause and effect, it would help families and clients think about how when they're feeling really activated, whether in therapy or just in the world, how all of these amazing coping skills that they're learning in rehab might temporarily go offline. So I really focused on talking to them about that part of the brain kind of getting hijacked, focusing on the fight or flight. But now that I've been diagnosed with ADHD, and I've been doing this work around helping people who have functional barriers, deal with care tasks around their home, for the first time, I'm starting to want to learn more about that frontal lobe, that part that's going offline, like, what all is that responsible for? So I wanted to start I send you like, kind of six questions. And I would love to hear you describe executive functioning for a layperson, like someone who doesn't know any type of psychological terminology or therapeutic language.

  Lesley PsyD 4:10

  Yeah, this is actually something that I am continuing to hone because it's really hard to translate. It's really complex. So hopefully, this will be easy to understand. And thank you Disney feel like I should be paying them for the movie Inside Out. The best image I can think so as I talk through this, a good visual image is that control panel inside of the main characters brain. So there is the what are the behavior that she's engaging in, which is more choice based in that movie, then there's the emotions, and they have an effect on the control panel, but they're not the control panel themselves. So executive functions are these eight core functions of that control panel that tell our body, how to do things when why, to what extent when to stop and here's the list of them. There are abilities to inhibit, like, stop ourselves to shift from one thing to another. Controller emotions, start a behavior, remember things as we're learning them, how to plan and organize, how to monitor what we're doing in the middle of it, and how to monitor how we're feeling about what we're doing. So you can imagine how complex this control panel is.

  KC Davis 5:22

  Wow. Yeah. It's a lot. That's like, I feel like when you describe those eight functions, as a therapist, that's like, everything that I'm trying to teach someone is like, how do we be more aware of our emotions? How do we regulate our emotions? How do we think through things? That is such a great, great summary, it almost kind of gives me like the visual of like a dam. And you know how you can like, open the dam a little or you can open the dam a lot. But like that dam is really in control of what is coming and going, and in what amount whether it's a tension or feelings or emotions. And so I could definitely see how like if somebody's control panel is shorting out, or someone's dam isn't like letting in or out the right amounts of things. Why that would make life so complicated.

  Lesley PsyD 6:13

  Yeah, incredibly, so in for diagnoses, like ADHD, it's like those emotions showing up to work every day in Riley's brain, and somebody's like, oh, shift is down today. Oh, man. All right, Colin, task monitoring hills have to work an extra shift. And you really can't predict like what's going to be offline or online on a given day. So you can imagine how that would not only make your day difficult, but also would affect emotions in the opposite direction, then you get frustrated that you can't shift when you need to.

  KC Davis 6:42

  So what does it look like when somebody has issues with executive function like when there are disruptions? So that control panel like, how does that show up in someone's life? Like, What would someone have to tell you like in a session to make you go, Hmm, I wonder if there's some executive functioning issues here.

  Lesley PsyD 6:59

  So a lot of the time, the first way that shows up is people expressing how bad they are at something. So I always get curious when someone says, you know, I know that my difficulty, like losing things is really impacting my life. But I'm just so terrible at that. That's usually some kind of note to me to ask more questions. Because if you were just terrible at that, you probably would never do it. Usually when that shame kicks in of like, look at this part of me that so bad, I'm not doing well, it's because you feel like you should be able to, or you feel like, you know, I can on this day. So maybe it's just my effort. So whenever I hear shame and guilt in there, I'll ask more. And there's a difference between not being great at a skill, and then having an actual executive function disturbance. So I am not great in developing physical systems to organize my stuff. But I am fantastic at developing tracking systems for my work. If I'm great at developing tracking systems for my work, then my tracking system should work every day, but they don't system. So that's the second factor is inconsistent performance, even with effort and energy,

  KC Davis 8:11

  which is interesting, because I think that somebody who is experiencing inconsistent performance like that, that's the reason why they assume that they must just be lazy, because they go to work. And they never miss, you know, a work call, they're on top of what they need to do at work. And then they can't come home, and can't seem to motivate or activate themselves to do the dishes and the laundry. And they're confused, because they're like, it's the same skills, I'm going to work and I'm seeing what needs to be done. And I'm doing it. But then I come home, I see what needs to be done. And I can't seem to do it.

  Lesley PsyD 8:46

  I would add to that, that when I see clients in my office that present with that kind of concept. They're even harder on themselves. I hear, I can go to work and manage a multimillion dollar contract, but I can't do my laundry. So they also kind of push these care tasks down in important importance in their life somehow, like I should be able to do this. It's so much easier. But it's not really laundry is about 15 different tasks. And so that's another thing that I'll look for is when they say I'm good in this environment, but I'm terrible over here. That's usually a sign that there's something else going on.

  KC Davis 9:22

  Yeah, and I totally see that too. We especially the comments that I sometimes get on tic TOCs was just clean as you go just put it in the dishwasher. Just do your laundry. Because for people whose executive functioning is firing on all cylinders, like they don't recognize that they're actually doing 12 different steps and utilizing eight different skills to do something like their brain has automated that to the degree where it feels like a simple, non complex task.

  Lesley PsyD 9:50

  If there was something that came up the most. That is the bit of information that's really helpful I found for family members who don't experience executive function problems. Is that because you don't perceive that you're doing 15 tasks, does not mean that you're not doing them, it means that your neurology showed up to support your motivation. Those are two different things. You can't motivate yourself into better executive function you can't

  KC Davis 10:16

  Fascinating. And you know, one of the questions that I had and will sort of skip around just because coming up is, I want to kind of talk about the difference between motivation versus task initiation. Because those things I think, get confused. And I think there's a lot of people showing up to their therapists office saying, I'm just not motivated. I'm just not motivated. And I think a lot of therapists are getting curious about what does that mean? What does that look like? So they're jumping right to sort of interventions that can help with motivation, when the actual issue is task initiation? So can you talk about the difference between those two things?

  Lesley PsyD 10:51

  Sure, motivation is either the desire to do something or the acknowledgement that it's really something that would be good if it gets done now. So it's more of a sensation than anything else. Motivation is a feeling, look at that pile of laundry. So even though that's full of dread, that's motivation, I'm not looking at the pile of laundry going. And I really love that that is an art sculpture, I hope that never goes anywhere. Which is might be true, that's where I've reached that level in my life. But motivation can be positive, or, you know, I hate to use negative, but it can have a distressing component. But then there's the behavior of task initiation. And actually, that is even multiple tasks in itself. So the signal to the body to move for individuals who do not have ADHD, or other forms of executive function disturbance, the motivation is followed by activity to that motor cortex almost immediately, they think it they do it, they just do it, and they don't have to tell themselves to do it. Anyone who has depression or significant anxiety, or ADHD knows the feeling of staring at the task and saying, move, get, move your leg, just move a foot, just do something. So there's a disruption there, the motivation is not leading to the body moving, and then we have to fight to get up. And so task initiation goes from what should be a seamless reflex almost, to a mountain to climb. And that can be incredibly distressing in itself and make us feel real bad about ourselves.

  KC Davis 12:18

  It's interesting, because what you're describing sounds exactly like what I described when I first got on Vyvanse, where I said, all of the sudden, the transition from sitting in a chair, to getting up to do the laundry was seamless, like the rails had been greased. It was not a hard transition to make. Whereas before, I would sit in the chair and think about how I needed to do the laundry. But I just so badly, either didn't want to or couldn't get up. And it took a long time to almost talk myself into and create. And I had to come up with all of these methods of creating momentum, so that I could get myself to go do the laundry. The other thing it reminds me of so most of my career was an addiction. And I have totally had those conversations with clients where it was a lack of motivation. And the way that they describe it is I don't care, I don't care that the laundry is not done. And sometimes it's really frustrating because you're sometimes talking about addiction, or you're talking about something unsanitary. And the poor families are like how could you not care? How could you not care that you're dying? How could you not care that you're not taking care of yourself? How could you not care that you have dirty clothes, and you smell and they would literally say I just I don't care, I can't make myself care. I feel complete apathy. When I think about those tasks, or they say, I don't think that I deserve those things. And so I have no motivation to do them. And that, for me really helped realize, oh, so motivation, a lack of motivation. And you can correct me on this shows up more like apathy.

  Lesley PsyD 13:54

  Yeah, lack of motivation is the best way that I can think about it is motivation is a sensation, it's not an action. It's just something that you feel. And so there's probably 1000 different versions of motivation, you can be slightly motivated, you can be not motivated at all. But what I see a lot when I have clients with actual motivational issues, is that they can convince me all day long, why they should do something. But then when we get down to it, and I say, Do you want to do this? Is this something you want in your life? They'll kind of exhale and be like, No, and I don't understand that. Like, what does that mean about me? And it's okay, we can deal with motivational issues. There's interventions for that, but confusing, the two really leads to a shame and guilt cycle.

  KC Davis 14:38

  Yeah. And a lot of times, especially around care tasks, when people talk about, you know, I just struggle with the motivation to do XYZ. And maybe it's something like clean my room, and sometimes it's a task initiation sheet, right? I want it clean. I function better when it has some order. But when I look at all the things there are I get overwhelmed, I don't know where to start, I get distracted. I have overwhelming emotions. But sometimes when people say, Oh, I can't find the motivation to do it, when you get really curious, you find that it is an actual value issue. Actually, I don't value a clean room, I only think I should value it because of the way that I was raised. But I function fine and a messy room. And so sometimes you find that the motivation is about what you value, and you just, you don't actually value that thing you just feel like you're supposed to, or that's what good people are supposed to value.

  Lesley PsyD 15:36

  That is exactly why in all of my interventions related to this, the first question I asked someone is, if no one was watching, and no one could say anything to you about this, how would you do this? Just you and people, not only have most of them have never even allowed themselves to think about it that way. But usually, there's a big realization at that point, oh, I think if it was up to me, I would probably just leave all the laundry in the laundry room, I wouldn't be moving stuff all over the house. And so then we say, alright, so if that's what your brain wants, can't we just build a system around that? So you don't have to fight yourself?

  KC Davis 16:12

  Yes. And I think, you know, one of the pillars of struggle care that I talked about is that shame is the enemy of functioning, and how shame can create short term compliance or short term change, but it doesn't really create long term change, nor does it create or sustain any type of intrinsic motivation. And I think it's what you said exactly about, at some point, you're alone. And shame is always about what someone else thinks of you, or the fear that you won't be accepted. Or, you know, I'm full of shame, because I'm a piece of shit, I'm a bad person, I'm not lovable, I'm not good enough. And that all has to do with the need for belonging and acceptance in your tribe. But if your tribes not around all the time, like you're going to default to whatever motivational or initiation issues are there. And so the shame doesn't work. And as someone who went to long term residential behavior modification for 18 months, you know, I was on point I followed every rule, I did really well, like I won, I won the game. And I functioned really well, when there was constant. outside pressure outside, it was like having an external control panel, right. And there was always an external pressure and external accountability. You know, these rules, regulations, structure, peer pressure monitoring. And once I left, although I did learn lots of great things there, there were so many things that was like, Oh, I'm two days in, and I'm not getting up at the crack of dawn and doing chores and doing all these things that were so easy for me when I was in structure.

  Lesley PsyD 17:53

  And I think that what that in both of those examples in your example of leaving that highly structured environment and the other example of people having what they often describe to me as relapses when no one's around, what's really happening in those moments is that people are returning to what is authentic, and guilt and shame causes us to interpret authenticity as bad. So imagine what that does to our sense of self, when being who we truly are is the bad way to be. How do you escape that?

  KC Davis 18:23

  Yeah, well, and then you carry it into every relationship, because no matter how much someone says, they love you, no matter how much praise or validation, you get, there's always this voice inside your head that says, if you only knew, and what's interesting, you know, kind of going back to talking about the way we show up at work, the hardest job I ever had, was working at a restaurant, I worked at a really high end restaurant for Hillstone Restaurant Group, and they ran their waitstaff, like a boot camp. I mean, I can't even describe to you like everything was very regimented. Everything from like, you had to memorize certain abbreviations. You could only walk into the kitchen and one door, you had to have things in your hand, as you left the door, you had to put drinks on the table within 30 seconds food on the table, within 10 minutes. Everything was highly, highly regimented. And so as you're going through your shift, you're having to multitask, prioritize, work with your working memory. And I was excellent at that job. But there was this structure there, there was this external structure, and there were all these other people. They're doing it with me. And I think it's so fascinating how there are environments in which my executive functioning can fire on all cylinders. And then I can go home and look around my home and not be able to sort of turn everything back on and I will assume it must be because I'm not trying hard enough. It must be because I'm not good enough as opposed to there is an obvious environmental difference between work and home.

  Lesley PsyD 19:59

  Absolutely. And that's what we talked about as, as clinicians who work with people with executive function disturbance. And in this case, especially ADHD is that if our internal structure is inconsistent, and we know that then we need to build external supports. So if we do that, right, that's not good. And then we shift that if we do that, effectively, that in a way that works for us, we do it so that it enhances our view of ourselves. Because if we notice that our control panel shift button is down that day, we can complement it with other external support. So we can utilize that concept really well. I think what happens is, we don't teach people about this, when they're, well, we're not teaching children and teens about executive function. So we have all of these assumptions, I can do it at work, but not at home. That must mean I don't care as much about my home, well, no work is set up perfectly for you, you've got all these external supports that help you so that no matter what function is down, you've got a compensatory strategy. And I find that that's a lot of your work that I witnessed and have on a daily basis, is you're really helping people figure out where you know, what system is down for them, and how not just individual solutions, but how to think about yourself and your environment, to provide your own external support that goes with you from place to place

  KC Davis 21:19

  Well, and I find that so many of the resources that talk about like running your home, and setting up systems and routines are very intimidating, because there's like, you know, 9000 checklists for the day, and it's really all consuming. And I think that we can write those things off as if no, no, no, those things are for people who have their shit together. Those are for healthy people that are on top of it, that are using those kinds of strategies, as opposed to I mean, and you see this too, with like, when you watch the TIC TOCs, about people like restocking their pantry, like when you look at the all the clear containers, and that like that gets written off as Oh, that's something Pinterest moms do. But in reality, there's some real functionality to having clear canisters where you can see things and having a time of the week where you restock everything. It's just that we sometimes I think need help making those systems accessible. And so it reminds me of when I started having a cleaning schedule, I always said no, I'm not going to do that. And then I started one and I really call it a care tasks at schedule. And it's literally one thing a day just one like I do laundry every Monday. On Tuesdays, I restock bathrooms. On Wednesdays I clean one thing in my kitchen. On Thursdays I do the sheets and on Fridays, I do the floors. And then on Saturdays, I do the groceries. And so it's really simple. It's nothing that anybody would like all over Pinterest in but setting up that system mirrored some of the more structured environments I've succeeded in in the past and circumvents ways in which my control panel short circuit so because my working memory is unhelpful to me at times, I found that when I do laundry on Mondays, it took about a month but now the idea that laundry is supposed to be done on Mondays is not something being handled by my working memory. It has been filed away in short term memory and contextualize. So that Monday and laundry are inextricably linked in my mind and my associations. So from the moment I wake up on a Monday, it's like it gets flagged it goes it's a laundry day. And before when I was just waiting to do laundry for when we ran out of clothes, it had no associations. So I'm either procrastinating it not doing it getting into the wash and forgetting about it, getting into the washer, the dryer, but then putting it on the floor. And it totally changed my ability. I mean, I literally can't tell you, Leslie, I have never been able to do laundry in a timely manner and have clean clothes put away until eight months ago. And what else is funny, I was looking at it tick tock that I did recently where I talked about how I used to try to be on the houses schedule. Like oh, I noticed that the clean sheets are dirty time to clean the sheets. And when we run out of food or grocery shopping, we run out of clothes or laundry. And I never could keep on top of anything. And so when I started washing sheets every Thursday, all of a sudden, the sheets were getting washed. And it was for some reason it kind of went to like an enjoyable activity because I felt like I was participating in the routine and I was doing it and that felt really good. So it even changed my like reward system relationship with the task. And I think it's really funny how for Casey Davis the only two options for the frequency of how often I wash sheets is every week, which I recognize is too often or literally once a year.Like that's it.

  Lesley PsyD 24:56

  But I love the idea that that's based on trying things, and then honoring yourself. And when you find that thing that starts to work really leaning in and not worrying about is this what I'm supposed to do isn't weekly too much. I don't think I have to do that. It doesn't matter if you are finding a rhythm. And I think rhythm is a really important word. For people with executive function issues. Rhythm is better than routine for a lot of people routine is like you set it and then I have to do it that way. That's how I do it. Rhythm is paying attention to how it feels, and leaning in when it feels right.

  KC Davis 25:30

  How that gave me goosebumps. Rhythm is more important than routine. And I think that that must be what I'm feeling because rhythm is so satisfying to me. Rhythm is even if it's it could be the most monotonous task. But if it's on a rhythm, if it's in the flow, all of a sudden, I feel a sense of reward when it's accomplished. Only if it's in the rhythm and in the flow.

  Lesley PsyD 25:53

  Exactly. It's funny because I think we're both gonna say things like in the last year in the last eight months, because the pentatonic really created this opportunity to really look inward. In all the time we had with ourselves. I really found in the last year that I enjoyed the fact that my family all slept in later, because they weren't going to school, both of my kids stayed home and fully homeschooled. And so I don't sleep in past seven, I never have, it works for me, I like it. And all of a sudden, I had an hour, from seven to eight of this pristine quiet. And what I found is that I was starting to get a cup of coffee and sit in the same chair and do my notes. My notes for work for if anyone who's not a psychotherapist, it's kind of the bane of our existence. Usually, we need to do it. And it's important, but it's not fun. We like the people, right? We like working with our people. And so I hate notes, and I would often get behind. But what I found is I started getting up at seven, no one's awake, sitting in my chair with my cup of coffee, doing my notes. And then all of a sudden, that became a really joyful time for me a peaceful time. And if I heard footsteps, I very kindly reminded a child not until eight, we have to, like stay in your zone. And so I agree with you, I think when we find our rhythms and we lean in, we really are honoring ourselves. I think it's just hard in our modern society to feel like we're allowed to do that.

  KC Davis 27:16

  And I love that you came to that rhythm gently. Because that's been my experience with all the rhythms that work in my house. Now I came to them gently, I wasn't forcing them. And so what I mean by that is like you didn't say one time, like, you know what, I'm going to start waking up an hour earlier, so that I have some time to myself, and then you know, you wake up and you snooze, you don't it was like it kind of accidentally happened. And then you realize you've liked it. And so all of the things, the rhythms for me that stick are the ones that I sort of happen upon gently, they're not the ones where I'm trying to force myself into a routine or force myself into a schedule. And that's kind of what I'm hearing about your rhythm too.

  Lesley PsyD 27:55

  Yeah, I'll give you an example of how two people can utilize the same compensatory strategies and opposite ways. In my house, we don't have a set day for any task, because that didn't feel rhythmic. To me, it didn't feel authentic to me, what I do is in my brain is surfing. So I have a rhythm of the things that need to be done not on a daily basis, but more than might like monitoring the house. And I do what feels right that day. And I just don't repeat the same thing two days in a row. And so that's another way to utilize the same skills to get the same result, but in a completely different manner. And that really, I think speaks to why it's so important not to just look at someone else's strategy and say, I'm gonna copy that exactly. And if it doesn't work, that's my fault.

  KC Davis 28:41

  Yeah. And that's why I try really hard not to make it sound like when I'm talking about what works in my home, that I'm not handing it out as a prescriptive routine, like, oh, everyone should do this. This is the answer. Because people are so different. This is just what works in my house. And maybe it'll work for three weeks, and I'll try a new system. Maybe it'll work for three months, and then I'll try a new system. One thing I know about me now is that the challenge and the novelty is really important. And so if I use a system for a rhythm for three months, and then I stopped using it, I don't have to I can either just kind of go with the flow and naturally get back on it. Or I can go maybe it's time for a new rhythm, a new system, it doesn't mean that I failed, or that I've done something wrong, or I've relapsed. I can't keep on a system for the life of me. Maybe it's just my natural need for novelty and challenge. And so instead of sort of beating myself up and trying to force myself back onto something, I can go, so what's a way that I can do it now? What feels right now that will still get those same functioning goals done and I think it's okay to change your rhythms as they change.

  Lesley PsyD 29:52

  Absolutely. And I think that's what I really enjoy about your content is the strategies that you provide are kind of like a bouquet of flowers. You might pick these flowers to hold and smell today. And maybe later, you'll be like, I want to go back to closing duties. And we've implemented your concept of closing duties in our house. And what I noticed is that we do them for a while, and then they become pretty easy to do. And we don't look at the list anymore. And then all of a sudden, we'll kind of notice and noticing is a, by the way, just as a pause is a really helpful concept with executive function disturbance, because noticing is different than criticism. So Oh, no, I'm not using my planner can become, Oh, that's interesting. I haven't used my planner in a week. So when we noticed that in the evenings, we're feeling more stressed, or there's more mess, we'll just recenter ourselves and be like, Oh, time to go back to closing duties. And if you do it that way, it's really a way to think about having this variety of tools in the same toolbox. And it's totally fine.

  KC Davis 30:48

  It's funny, because last night, I had my three year old do her closing duties, and then I did my full closing duties. But I honestly hadn't done either one of them fully in a week. And I had that same noticing of just non judgment. It's not Oh, I haven't done this, I need to do it. It was you know what it would feel good to do them tonight, it would feel good to have these done for the morning. And that's totally fine. Because I get that question all the time. I feel like I start out strong, and then I fall off. What do you do to get back on the horse? And I think the answer is there is no horse. Yeah, there is no horse, there is no falling, there is no horse, it's just meandering through the woods. And sometimes, you know, you start to walk off path because it's interesting, and it meets your needs. And then, you know, when you get a little disoriented and it serves your needs to get back on the sort of beaten path, then you do that there's no moral judgment on either side. So let me ask you this. One thing that all of this sort of came to head for me was, although I now know, looking back that I've had ADHD my whole life, when I had my second daughter, and I was postpartum in a pandemic, that's when the majority of the executive functioning came to a head where I couldn't function anymore, right? I look back on my life, and I see where ADHD has been. And and then at the same page, I see all these compensatory behaviors. But when I was postpartum, in a pandemic, it was as though the control panel broke down even more, and the compensatory sort of tools I had didn't work anymore. And one question I wanted to talk about, because we've been talking about ADHD, and depression and sort of these diagnoses that cause executive dysfunction. But certainly there are instances or circumstances or seasons when even someone who's neurotypical can experience interruptions with their executive functioning. And I wonder if you could talk about that.

  Lesley PsyD 32:39

  Yeah, not only can that happen, it happens for everyone, at some extent, probably every few days. So one of the things that's challenging to really cover in full on a short format, social media, like tick tock is all the nuance that's involved in this. So I like to kind of make the quip that, you know, if you have a central nervous system, you have executive functions. And if you have executive functions, then you're gonna have days with executive dysfunction, it's just how we were we're homeostatic. So you know, we deplete ourselves of calories, we get hungry, we eat. And that's the same for all of these self monitoring strategies. The biggest thing that impacts executive function, the two biggest things are overload, and anxiety, any kind of anxiety, not even clinical anxiety, just that pressure and nervousness, predominantly impacts things like working memory, and focus for every human being. So if all of a sudden, you are home with your kids all day, and you still have to work or take care of your home, and that is your primary work, and they are having a tantrum, there is a lot going on. So you could be overloaded on two counts, which is going to decrease some of these executive functions. So you might be in the middle of I was just gonna say, Well, everyone who listens to this, maybe will find this to be familiar. But let's say you are cleaning up a mess that a child has created. And then you have another child who's on the bathroom, you know, on the potty and needs to be wiped, and then someone else who's crying because they're hungry, that's too much for a human being to process in the moment you're going to have to sacrifice something, it's very likely that if you had another task, you're going to either let it to the side on purpose, or you're going to forget completely. We also know that because just because you mentioned being postpartum, we do know and there's emerging data that shows that estrogen fluctuation and to some extent other hormones as well impact executive function for all people, especially so for ADHD, but even for neurotypicals it's not unheard of that folks would have all of a sudden more difficulty with their attention and focus, you know, Miss An appointment misplace their keys when their estrogen is particularly high or low. Problem is we don't have concrete evidence, whether it's the high or the low, and we don't know why it affects some people and not others.

  KC Davis 34:58

  Interesting. And when you say and that like worry and anxiety can affect executive function, even for neurotypicals. What came to mind for me was, I think everyone's had the experience of being at work. And you know, you're in the groove, you're being productive. And then you get the email from your boss says, hey, I want to talk to you at 430, right? And then all of a sudden, it's like, it's impossible to go back to work and be productive again, like you can't focus, you can't think you just have this worry in this anxiety. And so that totally makes sense to me. You know why that can happen if someone is experiencing stress, or anxiety or just overload?

  Lesley PsyD 35:32

  Yeah, and those things can compound each other. So I think one of the things the pandemic did is not only did it remove a lot of people's external coping, it compounded our anxiety in a way that we've never experienced. So going to be anxiety provoking to teach your children at home. But when you have the extra worry of making sure that they're safe and early in the pandemic, we were, you know, washing the grocery bags and leaving are outside. I imagine for a whole lot of people, they found themselves experiencing a whole lot more disruption in these areas than typical, and that may last for quite a long time.

  KC Davis 36:07

  Yeah, I wonder if you would say, you know, when you were talking about how there are people who have these kinds of long term diagnoses, who will experience executive functioning barriers, but then a neurotypical person experiences them every once in a while, or even once every couple of days. And to me, you know, because there is a real difference between the way that someone who has a diagnoses whether it's the degree is different, or the frequency is different. And it almost reminded me of, you know, when somebody is chronically ill, their experience of medical problems and medical issues and barriers in their life is completely different from someone who's not chronically ill, who's not chronically ill. And but even someone who's not chronically ill get sick sometimes. Right? And so there's some way in which they think they can relate, you know, someone who has had the flu might look at someone who is chronically ill talking about being fatigued and having a fever and think, Oh, I know what that's like. But contextually, you know, the degree to which someone experiences executive dysfunction can really make a quality of life difference between someone who is just sort of on the normal course of life experiencing little blips here and there.

  Lesley PsyD 37:20

  Yeah, absolutely. And the way that I explained this to folks is that for someone who does not have ADHD, but is having a particularly stressful moment, and finding that they have some executive function challenges, maybe they just feel overloaded, or they forgot a bunch of things. Their challenges with executive function are two things, they're more predictable. So it makes sense when they happen, oh, I can see why, gosh, it's been a crazy week at work. And my kids are yelling, so they're more predictable, and they respond to intervention. So in the middle of it, if an individual who does not have an actual diagnosis does not qualify for that says, whoa, slow down. All right, you know what, I'm going to take some things off my plate, I'm going to take a minute for myself, their executive function skills will probably return right back to typical because they're more bound by the environmental stress. The core feature of something like ADHD is that the symptoms are fundamentally unpredictable. And don't make sense with the environment. People with ADHD can have incredible deficits and executive function on a day where everything is going their way, there is nothing wrong, they feel great. And conversely, they could be having the worst day of their life and remember everything and they don't respond to typical interventions. So things like just slow down and focus, just use a planner, right? Just use a planner, don't you think you should get more rest, stop drinking so much coffee Wanderlei have done all of these things today. They don't respond reliably, they may respond sometimes, but they don't respond reliably. And that's why ADHD can be hard to diagnose, especially in very young children, because we need that pattern and the severity to understand it. So for folks who don't have ADHD, try to imagine yourself on your worst day where you were the most disorganized. And imagine that that worst day could happen at any moment, with no warning and didn't respond to anything you did. That's what it feels like.

  KC Davis 39:12

  And I think that's probably also you know, what we're talking about the shame and beating ourselves up. Because, you know, if you get a phone call in the middle of the day, and you get some sort of scary health news about a family member, and then shortly after that, you suddenly kind of lose all motivation to do anything else with your day, you're gonna go well, that makes sense, right? I've had this big stressful conversation, I'm, well, I'm worried. And there, it's easier to be kind to yourself in that mess. Maybe I do need to just take it easy today. But if you have ADHD, or really any of these diagnoses that can create executive functioning issues and you wake up one day and you're going about your day and then randomly at 12 You don't have a phone call, but just randomly everything goes through and just powers down. and you don't want to do anything else with the rest of your day. We don't tend to give ourselves the same kind of kindness of oh, well, let me just, you know, that makes sense that seems valid. Let me just take it easy today. And I think the biggest difference that I have been able to experience since getting my diagnosis was it being easier to be kind to myself, and I'm incredibly privileged, that the stuff that I work on in terms of my struggle care platform, is very flexible. And I control my own dates and goals to some extent, because I will wake up going, I'm gonna get this and this and this, and this done. And then all of a sudden, everything just powers down at 1030. And I get to go, Well, I guess it's not getting done today. Or I guess it's only kind of gonna get done, or I guess, let me see if there's some other sort of flow that I can jump into, and maybe just switch projects completely. Now, we don't always have that option in life, there are things that have to get done at certain times. But even when we have to sort of trudge through the ability to sort of be kind to ourselves. And I think that's been my experience is trusting myself and honoring myself that if I feel that power down, that is something that really just happened. I don't know why maybe there was no triggering point. But it did happen. It was not a moral failing. It's not laziness, and it's okay to just kind of go with it.

  Lesley PsyD 41:26

  Yeah, absolutely. There's a model that I use with clients that's so similar to this. And it's been expanded upon by my friend, Abby on Tiktok. She's at Proactiv busy body of the stoplight model. So those of us with these challenges, we typically have red, yellow, and green days. And a Green Day is where for some reason, we're just firing on all cylinders, we're doing really well. And on those days, we don't need as many supports as we usually would need. And we can kind of raise our expectations for ourselves. So if we wake up, and we're feeling great, that's the day to say, Alright, I'm gonna get some extra stuff done, we have our yellow days where you're feeling a little uneasy, you're doing okay, but you could really use maybe some extra supports. And then we have read days where we wake up, and anyone with ADHD typically will will resonate with this. And by half an hour after waking up, we know what they were about to have, we've already lost our keys three times and then found them in the freezer. And on those days, we need to lower expectations and increase supports. And moving through those lights is a way to both hold ourselves accountable, right? We're not that's why it's not laziness, we're not saying it's a red day, I'm doing nothing. No, we need to increase our supports, and really decrease our expectations to focus only on the most important things, which always, by the way, includes self care.

  KC Davis 42:44

  It also reminds me of why you know, when I did sort of build myself this care task schedule over the week, and when I did my closing duties, I tried to build into each one of my routines, differing levels of acceptable outcomes. So like, I have a list of things that I do for my closing duties when I closed on my house, and it's like six things. And then I have a another list that I call survival day closing duties. That is just two things that absolutely need to be and I have full permission to choose whichever list fits my needs and my abilities in that moment. And the same thing with when i This is always my suggestion when someone says I want to try a cleaning schedule, what do you suggest. So I suggest, you know, if picking a room or a task a day, but that when you say Tuesdays is bathrooms, it doesn't mean on Tuesdays, I clean every single bathroom, it just means on Tuesdays, I clean something in a bathroom. And that allows you to stay within the rhythm that feels good while still honoring sort of your needs of that day. Because it might be a day where you go in and you wipe the countertop off, and then you walk out. Or it might be a day where you go in and clean the whole bathroom top to bottom or every thing in between. And so that we don't feel like when we have a day where we can't accomplish the whole thing that we failed, because any of those options within one thing, or all the things is acceptable. And frankly, no things is acceptable, too. I have things on my little cleaning schedule that auto like almost week to week, barely ever get done. And sometimes they do. So as we sort of land the plane here. I want to kind of talk about, you know, if someone's listening to this podcast, and they're really relating, and they're thinking, oh my god, I think maybe some of my struggles might be related to executive functioning issues. Where would you suggest someone start? I want to ask this in two parts. Where do you suggest they start in terms of who is the right maybe person or provider to look for? Because I don't think all providers are really knowledgeable about executive functioning issues. And then for people who maybe don't have access to more one on One providers, any resources that you would suggest to them?

  Lesley PsyD 45:04

  Sure. You we have in psychology right now in particular the area of support for Neuro divergence, we have an issue, clients and community members not being able to reliably tell if we are going to be helpful to them. And we are working on this. So the biggest suggestion that I make is if you have access if you have a mental health benefits through insurance, going to a licensed clinician making sure that they have a credential of some kind. And make sure when you make contact with them, if you're looking for supports that you interview them, ask them questions, ask them Do you know what executive function is, this is what I'm specifically looking for. This is one of the things that I find that people don't realize they're allowed to do. And any good clinician would welcome. So if you have access to those kinds of benefits, a psychologist or a therapist, really just starting with even psychology today.com, which is a little bit limited, or just Googling your zip code, and executive function, and therapists, it will give you a nice fat list of a lot of people more than you could contact. But working with a licensed clinician, if you have access to that is really helpful. If you don't have access, or if you want to do something to start dipping your toe in this pond and figuring out if this sounds like you, I absolutely love understood.org It is a wonderful website, I do not make any money from understood.org. Just so everyone knows, I'm not sponsored by them. I'm just a patron, they have a wealth of articles, they have a simulator so that if you have this disturbance, and you'd like someone in your family to know what it feels like, you can have them do a simulator for executive function challenges. And there are also articles about what concretely to do to start helping yourself and also how to reach out for support. Those are my favorite two suggestions.

  KC Davis 46:46

  Awesome. Yeah, and I will say, as a licensed professional counselor, I have a Master's in Counseling. And I can honestly say that my education did not provide that much information. In fact, I don't remember hardly any information about executive functioning. Certainly, my education and counseling gave me the tools to understand what I was learning when I went out to learn about executive functioning. But I just wanted to sort of echo it's definitely something to ask of a therapist because not all therapists are going to have experience in that area.

  Lesley PsyD 47:19

  Yeah, absolutely. And they're even if you don't have ADHD, Chad c h a d 's dot org is another resource. Sometimes individuals forget that. If you don't have a diagnosis, that doesn't mean you might not benefit from the information. So it's really okay. You don't have to feel like I have to have the diagnosis to even look at this. There's probably a wealth of information that can be helpful to you.

  KC Davis 47:41

  Awesome. Well, thank you so so much for all of this do you want to go ahead and plug your socials and where you are and how people can watch you and contact you if they want to?

  Lesley PsyD 47:53

  Sure I am predominantly on tick tock it is my favorite social media platform that's ever been invented because it's everything is one minute, which works for me. I'm also on Instagram, my Tiktok is Lesley PsyD lesley PsyD. My Instagram is actually Lesley underscore PsyD. And that'll be more of the professional information. I'm not on Instagram as much so Tiktok is the best way to peruse my content.

  KC Davis 48:18

  Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

  Lesley PsyD 48:20

  Thank you for having me. This is wonderful.

  KC Davis 48:22

  This has been an incredible talk. And so if you are listening, I hope you guys check Lesley out and thank you for tuning in.

Dear Listeners,

“We want to inform you that this episode marks the end of our current season. We would like to take a break during the month of August to recharge and prepare exciting new content for you. We will be back with fresh episodes in September, filled with engaging discussions and insightful interviews. We appreciate your support and look forward to reconnecting with you soon”

-KC Davis

Codependency is one of those buzzwords often used in therapy and mental health around relationships. Today’s guest has provoked a lot of feedback by challenging people’s views on this subject. Join us for this intriguing conversation.

I’m joined by one of my favorite people on TikTok, Shahem Mclaurin, a social worker in Brooklyn, NY, with over 500,000 followers on social media. Shahem is self-described as a person who is “queer as hell, Black as hell, and loud as hell.” They use their platform to address a wide range of social and mental health issues impacting people of color, patriarchy-impacted people, and members of the LGBTQ+ community.

Show Highlights:

● How Shahem’s view of codependency has challenged the worldview of many people

● Why Shahem got a lot of blowback from his thoughts on codependency when he began to challenge popular worldviews

● Why we need to differentiate between attention-seeking and connection-seeking behaviors

● Why people get defensive when their “codependency identification” is challenged

● How the term codependency originated as part of popular therapeutic language

● How our culture sees having empathy for someone and expecting accountability from them as opposites that can’t both be true at the same time

● Thoughts on codependency, outside validation, connectivity, and feeling emotionally safe

● How to take a look at your unique journey “in the pool”

Resources and Links:

Connect with Shahem: TikTok and Instagram

Connect with KC: TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. This is a podcast about self care, mental health and just shit that I want to talk about in general. I'm here with genuinely one of my favorite tech talkers, Shaheen, and you are a licensed professional social worker and say a few words about yourself so that the audience can know who you are.

  Shahem 0:25

  So I'm Shaheen, I am a licensed social worker practicing therapist. I'm an LMS w. So this close to my See, I had to take a year. That's overall uncomplicated twisty windy stories, but I am originally from Baltimore. I'm stationed in Brooklyn, and I am queers. How on black as hell and loud as hell, nine times out of 10. So that is what you get from me. Yeah,

  KC Davis 0:52

  Well, thank you so much. I've really been looking forward to this, because we're gonna talk about codependency. And I saw you do a tech talk recently on it. And I was like, I have thoughts. And I know you have thoughts. And that is really all this podcast is, is finding people that have like capital T thoughts on things that are sort of like mine, and then bringing them on and then talking about it. So what just give me your like, one minute download as to like, why the word codependency makes your assets.

  Shahem 1:21

  So I got a lot of blowback from that, like people were so upset, but it was fine. Because

  KC Davis 1:27

  Did you really?

  Shahem 1:28

  I did, and, you know, I anticipate it when you challenge people's worldviews, I find that that word is so overused, and often like it villainized as people's desire to connect to other people, because a lot of the times what is at the root of codependency is like completely swept under the rug, right. And there's people who are seeking secure and safe connections. And especially in a world where like hyper individualism is pushed, like to the forefront, like encourages people to further disconnect from the reality of like seeking connections and safe connections with other people, building community with others in having grace, conflict resolution, and all of the things with people. And I think, like one of the reasons why people feel so strongly about it is because a lot of us like one of pathologizing away our desire to connect to other people and to be human beings in the social. So yeah, I find that the word is overused, I find that people like often use that, like the term codependency to, like dismiss people's desire for connectivity. And I think like in our society, in our specific context, it like encourages people to disconnect from people around them, which is like, connected to so many larger issues that we face as a society. And it just, it really does make my assets. That part, right.

  KC Davis 2:58

  I feel like it's similar to like the phrase, like attention seeking, where it's not that there isn't certain behavior that's maybe like not working for you that you would like to work on. But it's like you said, like it demonizes the underlying desire, and then that person ends up like hating themselves for this desire.

  Shahem 3:21

  Let me say this, you are also one of my favorite creators, like literally, I'm honored to be here. I saw your video when you talked about attention seeking versus connection seeking. And I was just like, Thank you like that is the perfect way to describe that because a lot of the times, kids specifically, you know, worked in foster care, the juvenile justice system, and I am like no stranger to the phrase, attention seeking a lot of children often dismiss their needs are often dismissed as seeking attention, as opposed to like the acknowledgement that these children are like they are lacking connectivity. And instead of like us focusing on how we can solve that issue, which is connected to again, these larger social problems, like loneliness is systemic. And instead of addressing these issues, we are reactionary, and we attack the effect and not the cause, like, but that is like, again, connected to so many larger issues in this context, because we never really addressed the root of the issue. We just disappear, we pathologize and dismiss, that is something that makes my assets.

  KC Davis 4:39

  And I think one of the reasons why it gets so much blowback is because and this is true of a lot of like pop psychology terms or like psychological terms in general, is that you have people who have a genuine struggle or like a genuine behavior that's neither not working for them or it's destructive for them or or whatever. Are and they find a term that they feel like the meaning of that term. It helps them like move through whatever they're going through, it helps them identify what's going on. It helps them like work through something. And then they feel very defensive when someone like comes for that term. And I'm thinking specifically of like, so a lot of my background is in addiction, like I had a really severe addiction. And I went through a long rehab, and then I worked on addiction my whole career. So, you know, it's interesting, like, we've been talking about, like teachers and disabled students a lot on my tech talk right now. And everyone's like, well, you've never taught but you would be amazed the similarities between working in addiction and like observing what's happening, like on teacher talk right now. And there's also I think, a lot of similarities with working with foster kids, because it's this because mine were always young adults, it was always like, kids in their early 20s, that had addiction issues, and all the same stuff about like, are they like, they're manipulative, they are dishonest, they are attention seeking. They are like all of these things that really get slapped on them. And codependent was one really big one specifically for the like the women that would come through. And in my addiction, my mother, like really struggled with what she now believes to be like enabling behaviors. And she went through this process of like, learning boundaries and learning that like, hey, regardless of what my daughter chooses to do, like, I am my own person, and like, I can have joy in life, even if she's not like, I can't save her, but I can be there for her and all these things. But like, the books like my, these core memories of my mom, and these, like melody Beatty books, on codependency, like in her like little bedside, write her little, and every day, just like her little codependency books, and they really helped her. And I think that that's why like, people can get really defensive because it's like, okay, we're not coming for your journey. Like, if that word has done something for you, that's great. But like for every person that was like, helped by that word, like, it wasn't the word that helped you. And then there's like other people who are not helped by it. And so like, we're not taking that journey away from you, if like, that's an identification that has helped you. But I totally agree with you that sometimes a term and maybe at one point, it was a helpful term like, well, first of all, I think the term originated in addiction. And it was like, akin to the word co addict. And literally codependent was specifically like you had the person who was dependent on alcohol. And then what they found was that they were seeing that like the Dine, obviously, like, there's a lot of dynamics that you can recognize in addiction, like over and over and over, like, Oh, these all seem to be similar, like, regardless of where these people are in the demographic, you know, bap, but what they found was, and it was obviously, mostly men that they were treating, like when this first started, their wives also seemed to exhibit similar patterns of dysfunction. And so the word codependent came about not because you're dependent on another person, but it was like this person's up dependent on alcohol. And this is the CO dependent like, it was describing a dynamic between two people, right? Where like, one is in this like chaos of addiction where they're literally like circling the drain going down, and the other person is in that dynamic with them. And they're like creating this like kind of sick feedback loop where they're both going down together. And so she was the CO dependent and that's the term how it started and then it kind of got hijacked and got like a lot of terms got so pop psychology EAD that now, you know, if my boyfriend isn't calling me back, and I'm upset about it? Well, I'm just being codependent.

  Shahem 8:51

  That is a perfect example of what I mean when I say people overuse it. But I think you are pointing out something that is so important is the way that language is CO opted. It happens so often. And I'm going to say the next this next part, I know every time I say this around the therapist is like a narcissistic personality disorder. The way people talk about narcissism, online narcissistic abuse, and I'm not here to say like narcissistic abuse is not a real experience. And some people really do get a lot from talking about like narcissism, but a lot of people do also overuse the terminology and lean heavily on like one, I just always careful about talking about it because people get really up in arms about this, but just basically like villainizing entire personality clusters of personality disorders, and like basically dehumanizing other people and slapping the label on pretty much anybody that they come across, who is an asshole in one instance to them and it is I think like that is like a really like the biggest that I see once I talk by pretty frequently, but like, the way that people take language, and yes, it does help them in their journey, which is a beautiful thing, like, but they take it and they like apply it broadly across the board. And I think a lot of language gets like eaten up into this like larger machine that is like, frankly violent, and it's chews people up and spits them out, we live in a very carceral society where we are quick to other people and to like disappear people whenever they do things that are deemed societally unacceptable. And I think the way that we use a lot of this mental health language is a part of that, like it is often co opted into the machine. Like when I worked in the juvenile justice system, attention seeking behavior was like the most commonly used phrases to describe children who were frankly, like, behaving like kids were hurt, because he's a lot of these kids have been in the system for years. And like, instead of like connection seeking, like, you know, attention seeking, like, I think like the language is all a part of like this larger machine that seeks to like exploit other and you know, basically, like, disappear people. And I think that's why when we do bring up things like you know, maybe not attention seeking, or maybe codependency is a little bit of a strong choice of words for you to be seeking connection from your partner, that we get pushed back. But I do think it's important to keep pushing back on these narratives, because this is how the language becomes co opted. And not that, you know, I think language is that because I'm actually going to be talking about this probably a little bit later. But like language is so important. language as a tool is essential. Having the words to put your experience in can make it easier for you to navigate your experience. It makes it easier to make decisions. Like when you have therapeutic language like a you can understand if someone is like for example, gaslighting you, and you are able to call that out. It's really important. It's like these tools are necessary. But like any other tool, it can be used for good or bad. Or it can be because tools are just tools.

  KC Davis 12:22

  And there's like a bell curve of it. Right? Like, okay, nobody knows what gaslight is. And then it's like we learn what it is. And then it's like the really empowering word. And the more it's used, and the more it's normalized, the more helpful it is to identify things. And then it hits like a Zenith where it gives us so much that now it becomes really watered down and like it's like helpfulness takes a nosedive. And then we have to kind of look back and go, okay, like, it doesn't just mean everything. And I think that's the point at which a lot of these like terms go from psychology to pop psychology, where there's like this short window of use, yes, trauma, bonding, trauma dumping, like all those things. And I have an interesting question about the pathologizing thing. But let me take a short break here. Okay, so one of the things you mentioned, especially narcissistic personality disorder, I had this thought where there's two interesting things happening at the same time. So like, let's take that term, or even like borderline personality disorder. What's interesting about that is that I see people using that term to pathologize like to demonize someone like to take what's a, frankly, a pretty normal human response to deep, deep trauma, and calling it you know, something that is a mental illness. And it's like pathologizing, but then I see people taking the term and doing the opposite, where it's like, they're trying to use it to say, Hey, I'm not evil, I have this disorder. And so you can't be angry about it, you have to have empathy for it, you have to have, and it's so interesting to me how the use of the disorder language, like does both at the same time, and I and it's like, oh, I don't know what to do with that. Because on the one hand, we can't pathologize it too much. But on the other hand, it's like, but they're both making the same mistake, which is, this is this is a, I don't know, I can't stand personality disorders because people don't understand the difference between the personality disorders and other disorders because like, there are some disorders in psychology and this is same in medical, whatever, but like, where we see a cluster of symptoms, and that tells us the cause, right? Like if we say someone has diabetes, like we see the symptoms, the blood sugar or that the other and because we realize that that's diabetes, we know the cause we quite literally know what's causing those symptoms and it is, you know, the stuff happening In their liver, pancreas kind of stuff. And then there's other ones, right? Like, okay, you have the flu? Well, we saw the symptoms. And now we know you have the flu. And literally the flu is the cause. It's a virus that came in and it did XYZ. But there are other types of disorders or even like medical ones, where we say like, Okay, you have chronic fatigue syndrome, we have no idea what causes that. We don't know whether there are multiple causes, or one cause we just know that there are people showing up with these clusters of symptoms. And they're showing up often enough that were clear that it is something and so people I don't think understand that, like when you talk about DSM disorders, like there are some of those that, like when we say you have Bipolar, we know that something is going on, that's causing the bipolar in your brain. Like it's not trauma, it's not like there might have been an environmental flip, right. But it is something in the chemistry of our brain, or OCD. Like there's something happening in the brain that's causing all those symptoms. And I don't think people realize that personality disorders are not like that, like there is not like a gene that causes borderline personality disorder, or narcissistic personality disorder. Like, that's not what we're saying. We're just saying that, like, there have been so many assholes that have showed up with this very specific constellation of symptoms, that it is helpful for us to call it something, because then we can better treat it because we can know that like, if this works with that person, it might work with other similar, like personality profiles. And I think that becomes really sticky for people because it's like, it's not quite as simple as like, I don't know, man, I've just got narcissistic personality disorder. So like, we don't want to demonize anyone, even if it is something but it's like, well,

  Shahem 16:55

  Not quite the same. And I think like you bring up a like a really important point. I think it's an overarching thing that like, this is real, it really grinds my gears, it pisses me off when it comes to conversations around mental health. And I think like it speaks to the context that we live within the current state of society. But a lot of people try to operate in extremes. And like, they don't like to find balance within all of these conversations. And I like to tell people all the time, like you have the one thing about like mental health, no matter which side you are talking about, like you need to have balance, like there is a point where it's like, you have to hold yourself accountable for your actions, having any disorder or any like, it's not, like if you are someone who can account for their, like, if you're oriented to this reality, you can account for your actions, and you have to like, you know, there are consequences for actions, you know, and but there is a balance, because there are people who have like, disordered thinking people do deserve, like to be able to experience, you know, life and to react to trauma without being thrown away. You know, there is space for empathy. And there is like, it's just a balancing act. I think.

  KC Davis 18:08

  I'm glad you said the oriented to reality part. Yeah. Because like we at some point, we have to admit that someone experiencing psychosis is different than someone who has a personality disorder. Yeah, like there's a different level of accountability there.

  Shahem 18:24

  Yeah, like, if you're not even like, you know, if you're not oriented, like time place, like all that, like, if you aren't oriented, you're not playing with the same like deck of cards as everyone else. So like, I think it is just like, again, it's that balance, like being able to balance which being able to balance like how to, like, have people within community in society, without necessarily feeling the need to throw everybody away who has any defaults, or defects. But I think a large part of that goes back to systemic issues where a lot of frankly, if you ask me, I think personality disorders, a lot of them can be resolved if we, like adjusted the way that we operate as a society. Like trauma is systemic, like, think of how a lot of housewives in the 1950s were like, traumatized, deeply traumatized, by the way that their lives were set up because of the way systemically they didn't have the same options, as a lot of women do now, but even still, like you know, we have a lot of systemic issues that women go up against which create a lot of dysfunction and the same goes across the board for a lot of people like no matter the identity. I also am a huge like proponent of like disability theory, I think society disabled people. And I think like if we function better as a society, a lot of the issues that we face can be shifted, but there are there is also again, balance like the genetic components like some people actually have like mental health, mental health have things that they have to go up against and face that are genetic, like, like, you know, if you are you have Bipolar, like there's a genetic predisposition to it. And like there's just a balancing act. And I think one of the issues comes when people try to place everything on the same like plane, when it's a matrix, it's not like just the plane is a matrix, like there are different factors that contribute to everything. And I think when we strip ourselves of the nuance, and we don't approach it with nuanced thinking, which often happens when things are watered down through pop psychology, like it really does more of a disservice than it does a service.

  KC Davis 20:46

  And I think people are probably wondering, like, What the hell does all this have to do with codependency, but I think it is really connected. Because I think that whole conversation, like it revolves around this, this thing we have in our culture, where you can either have empathy for someone, or you can expect accountability from them. Like we see those as opposite, right. And so I think people who are struggling, they feel alone and they desire connection, and they desire allowed to be human. And so what that comes out as like, Hey, this is a disorder have empathy for me, don't demonize me. And that's just that same like kind of cry of the heart of like, Don't put me out. And but then the opposite of it, which is like when people get really harmed by people, and they're going, No, I'm not going to just excuse that by going, Oh, I feel so sorry for you, you've abused people. And people truly can't imagine a world where empathy and accountability happen in the same place. And I think that that is one of the things that leads to what we call codependency, right, I end up in a relationship with someone, I don't feel like I have worthiness outside of somebody else's value of me. And so I there's this person, and so if that person is harming me in some way, I don't know how to hold that in a space, right. And so I ended up thinking, Well, I have to have empathy for them, I have to have empathy for them, I have to have empathy for them. And I don't expect accountability and my own self worth is so degraded, that I find myself in a dynamic where I continue to run back to either the same person or the same types of people that I need connection so badly, but then when I get that connection, it further harms me. And that makes me need it more. And we kind of end up like there. There is something happening there. And it kind of comes back to boundaries, which is another thing that I think we get wrong with boundaries.

  Shahem 22:48

  Oh, my goodness, the hyper focus on boundaries, often when I love talking about boundaries, because I do boundaries are very important, like for community. But a lot of the ways that we talk about boundaries in this mental health space that we all exist within is it hyper focuses on like, individual, like hyper individualism, like I said before, like the same problem with codependency like it tries to like push people further to isolate and to sever connections with people around them, as opposed to like, like, you know, and you know, of course, there are the people who are trained resolve clinicians who actually talk about it in a way that I think is like really healthy and helpful. And then there are the people who like try and push people further towards isolation and disconnecting from people around them. And I think there's a lot that we get wrong as a society. And I think that's why conversations like this do matter, though, because they're like, I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say, Wow, you really did shift my, my perspective with thinking on this because I didn't think of it like that. And I think it's important for us to just keep pushing the space don't get me started on carcere ality in a way that, you know, therapists are allowed to exist on the online space. But I'm like, a really big advocate for us, like, are people who are professionals like sharing their expertise online, because it is like pretty much part of our duties at this point to combat a lot of like, the misinformation and disinformation that is easily spread online, just around language overall, but like, even things like you know, something as simple as trauma dumping, like, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've heard people use the term trauma dumping. I can't tell you how many times I've had clients, like patients of mine come to me and say like, I'm sorry, I don't want to trauma. And I have to let them know your therapist. Like you're actually supposed to talk about your drama like that's what I'm here for, like you're not trauma dumping, because you're sharing your experience because a lot of the language that is used and the space is like, literally used to push people towards isolation. And yeah, that was a long winded way to say I agree. And yeah, it's a mess, the way we cover a lot of these things, but we got to keep talking.

  KC Davis 25:13

  Okay, so let's do this, we're gonna take a quick break and come back. Okay, so I want to move on to talking about like, what would be a better way? Because I have thoughts, I know you have thoughts of talking about what people are trying to talk about when they say codependency because there's like, separate different ways. So I want to give you kind of an example of something that I experienced that I used to identify as codependency when I was young. And then you put your therapist hat on and tell me like, how do you think this would be better conceptualized for someone. So back when I was using, I felt just as addicted to people as I did the substances. And there's one specific memory that has always sort of been seared in my head, which it was like a Saturday night. And I was like, Okay, I got it. And I had like a group of friends. And it was a large group. So like, sometimes some of them were here, some of them were there, some of them were all together, or whatever. And I was calling around trying to figure out like, where's the get together? Like, what are people doing? Like, where's the event or the thing that I can go and be a part of, and part of what I loved about using drugs is I went from like walking into a room insecure to walking into a room where everybody stopped and looked up and went, Hey, like, there she is, and I knew what to do. And I knew what was expected. And I, I knew how to inhabit the identity of this like subculture I was living in and and so I'm Saturday night, and I'm calling around, and no one's picking up the phone. And I can't figure out like, is anyone doing anything? And if so, where are they? And and, and how can I go be apart? And no one's ignoring me? It wasn't like, Oh, my friends are hanging out. Without me. It was just that, you know, I would get someone on the phone. They'd say, Oh, I'm not doing anything tonight. And then somebody wouldn't answer and then somebody wouldn't answer. And then somebody wasn't doing anything. And the more I called the more frantic I felt, because like I couldn't find people to go be with. And it felt as desperate as like calling around for a fix. And nobody has anything. And I'm calling and I'm calling and I'm calling and I get to like the last person I know to call, and nobody's out doing anything. And I literally collapse on the ground and just start hyperventilating and crying and screaming, because I feel like my chest is going to cave in, if I can't go be with these people and experience that feeling of okayness. And so that was the experience that early on was like, Oh, I'm codependent. But so if you had a client that came to you with that experience, like what better language or like view could you give them to understand that experience?

  Shahem 27:58

  Well, first, I'm so sorry, that is a part of your experience. That sounds like that was really tough. And I can only imagine, I'm sorry that you had to experience I know, going through stuff like that is not easy. But as far as I'm concerned, it sounds just like how we were just talking about like, it sounds like you want to connectivity like you want it to feel connected to a community of people around you. And you didn't feel that in that moment. And I think even beyond that, I would start personally to explore like exactly why it is that you feel so disconnected despite you having these relationships, and people you should you can call up because that doesn't come from just like nowhere. I think that is part of the experience of wanting to be connected. But if you are in a setting where you are surrounded by people, and you don't feel connected to the people, unless you are physically around them, or you're out and you're busy, why do you feel like you need to be connected to people or being being out in order to be connected? Why are you driven by this, like, outside validation because I don't even know like it would require so much compensation which is another sidebar when people ask me for advice, which is why I do not give out advice on tick tock like I travel this avoid it because it's like, I wouldn't eat so much context. But this is a point of exploration, which is why I'm like jumping, leaping directly to codependency as like a term to just like stamp it. Sometimes it does a disservice because there's so much you can explore as to why it is like that feeling was there to begin with. We are human beings, right how we are taught to connect to other people. When we are young, have huge, you know, attachment theory versus how we are taught like, when we're young to like connect to other people. It follows us for a while it can change over time. But part of that change if the way we are connected to people is is unhealthy, where we feel like we can't function if we're not connected to other people at all times. Like, we have to explore what where that comes from. Right. And that could be a number of things like, you know, some people do have, like, genetic predispositions to mental health concerns and things that prevent them from being able to like exist without feeling that connectivity, some people like that's trauma, like, it is just a point of exploration, if you ask me, and that is the part, the point where I would start to explore a little bit further, and not just like, slap a label on it.

  KC Davis 30:34

  Yeah, cuz that label has become the end of the journey. You know, I mean, it's like, you hear that you're like, oh, codependency is like, Okay, we have a diagnosis. Let's move on. But here's the thing in all my years, nobody has ever said what you just said to me, specifically, like literally 20 However, many years later, I'm having this aha moment when you said, you were connected to people like deeply that loved you, that you loved, that welcomed you that appreciated you. Why is it that there's no emotional permanence? Because my head went right to, like, Yes, I know, I need connection. But like, I should be able to be okay on a Friday night, once in a while being alone. But when you said, first of all, like that such a human need, like there's nothing wrong with you for needing that connection. But what's interesting is that you had it, but you couldn't experience it unless you were physically with those people. And I think that that's really what the heart of this conversation is about is that like, when you go with, well, you shouldn't be healthy, you should be a person who's Okay, not always having outside validation. Like we go right to like, what's wrong with it? Instead of what's right. Like, there are things in you functioning normally, which is like you need connection. But there's something that has like gotten in the way of your ability to experience like, in my case, like the connection you actually have. And you said, like, that becomes the beginning of a journey and the opening of a journey that has a lot less shame than you know, when I went to rehab, and they gave me my first treatment assignment about codependency. And it was like list the seven ways you're codependent. And why do you need the validation of others, and it pushes it, it also says, like, you say this really well, where it's like, no one's saying that, like, that's not a painful place to be. And that if we were to have to use the term slightly dysfunctional, and that it's just not working for me. But when I went through rehab, when we worked on my codependency in quotation marks, it presented the answer to that as just being my own island, never needing the validation of other people never needing to have to be around. And so that just puts me right into like, this black and white shame place, where I feel ashamed of myself if I can't have my own self esteem. And I feel okay with myself if I can, but I'm never gonna get there. If the whole journey is this. Well, I just want to be okay with myself. So I want to do the healthy thing instead of like, actually having a healing journey. And I think that's like the key to the issue is when we talk about pathologizing something versus understanding that like, and I used to call this I had a podcast recently with someone where we talked about this idea of like, first person experience versus third person experience, where when I got into the mental health world really young, what quickly happened was this dichotomy of if you're healthy, that's good, and you're worthy. And if you're unhealthy and dysfunctional and codependent like that's not. And so when you do things in this category, you feel shame, because you're not good enough. But when you're making therapeutic progress, you are good enough. And everything you experience is from this like third person point of view, where there's like this invisible audience saying, Good, now you're doing good. Now you're doing good, as opposed to first person experiences where like, Wouldn't it be nice to for a Saturday night where I could make a cup of coffee, or watch a movie by myself and still enjoy feeling connected and knowing that I'm loved, like that experience is rewarding in and of itself. It doesn't have to have this extra layer of and now I'm healthy and I feel like I'm worthy.

  Shahem 34:14

  Exactly. It is just about like being able to feel emotionally like safe, if you ask me. And also, I just cannot in this conversation without saying like, you cannot heal in isolation. That is just like a number one thing. We are a social species. We need other people. We need relationships, frankly, like I like one thing I love talking to when I work with foster kids. I would ask them like, you know, who who is responsible for these lights being on maybe like, oh, we have a bill. Yeah, but like there's also somebody who runs the electricity plant. Like there are people who like build the wiring like we are a social species like we are all connected in ways where we don't even know if we are connected in those ways. Like we have to connect to other people for other things too, right. And that includes like, mental health and mental wellness, like you need other people. And that's okay. And a lot of the times I will say this, because I also have to save us before we close. But, you know, as someone who was recently trained in EMDR, like, I can say, like one of the things that I worked through, because in the training they make you go through and process your own trauma. One of the things that I worked through was like my connectivity to my family, because in a lot of ways people will say I was codependent because I was like seeking connection from family. But when I was able to process and metabolize certain traumas I recognized like, you know, like, I just like literally had trauma that was not metabolized. And sometimes it is that simple. Sometimes it's not. In fact, I would say none of that is simple. It's all very complex. But that's the thing, right? Like not settling for, like these very broad, very, sometimes shaming is shameful, like terms, and language, because it can literally stop you or getting away from exploring yourself, your journey, your story, like what is at the root, and like helping yourself come to a space where you feel safe, because that's at the end of the day, you feeling safe, and connected and tethered and present and all the things because that's ultimately what I think a lot of us want.

  KC Davis 36:33

  Well, and if your codependency becomes like the period before the exploration, because I can totally see if I were to come to you and tell that same story. But the difference would be like, I keep like I find a group and then they go away, where like you would be able to therapist to go, hey, the issue is you don't have a community. And like not having a community and feeling that desperation is a completely different journey and solution than someone that comes and goes, I have a community, they really liked me, but I feel desperate, if I'm not physically with them. Like that's a totally different way of exploring. And it's also very different than someone coming to you and saying, there's this one particular person who is abusive to me, or toxic to me or mistreats. Me, and I can't quit them. Like that's also an codependency I think dangerously lumps, all of these different issues together with this one stamp of something's wrong with you go figure it out instead of, you know, realizing like there are a lot of different ways that could show up and different ways to explore that. And one of the things for me, I can't remember which therapist I was like working under, when we were talking about addiction, specifically around this idea of like, enabling someone or not having boundaries with someone. And they were the first person I heard talk about how like codependency is not helpful term. And the terms that she used when working with couples and families where there's like a dyad, or a triad of like somebody with, you know, either mental health or addiction or even toxic behavior. As she said, like, throw away the word codependency, I want to talk about looking at this relationship, like where are the areas where you might be over functioning, and where are the areas where you might be under functioning. And that, to me was such a more helpful way of thinking about it, because she would address it the person that was like, quote, The identified patient. And we would talk about how like, in terms of community, like you have obligations to community, and you have privileges from community, and you will occasionally get someone who wants to enjoy all the privileges of community, but consistently under functions when it comes to meeting the obligations of community or the responsibility of community. So whether it's family or community or friends or whatever. And oftentimes, another person in response to that person's under functioning will then begin to over function. So I'll just do things for them. I'll rescue them from their emotions, I'll pay those bills for them, I'll do that. And it was such an easier way of looking at so it wasn't this person's a piece of shit and you're codependent.

  Shahem 39:16

  Yeah, I think like the more we talk about this stuff, the more it spreads and gets out there and the more people can like probe, hopefully somebody will hear this and they will think to themselves, like maybe I should explore a little bit further. Just slap a label on myself. Because I think one thing that you highlighted that is really important is like that shame that comes with like feeling like the problem is you. It really impacts like your ability to function overall. And I think it's important to be able to question and like give yourself grace through it when when you know like that these things can come from so many different like aspects and avenues and you can hold yourself accountable while also holding empathy for yourself. Like that makes it a lot easier.

  KC Davis 40:04

  I feel like it's like thinking of the difference between seeing your mental health journey for lack of a better term or your healing, you can see it as a lap pool, like an Olympic sized lap pool, where it's how far am I going? How fast am I going? Am I going in the right direction? And how am I going in comparison to the people in the other lanes, right? Like, you can visualize it that way. And that's what where a lot of that shame comes in. Because I'm not moving as fast as everyone else. I'm not moving as fast as I should be. I'm not winning. I'm not doing the correct strokes. I'm not going in the right direction. I'm not moving, you know, all of these things, versus seeing it as like a resort pool with a beach entry. Right? It's like, you can wait in you can sit in the shallows for a while you can get deeper, but you can be deeper off to the left, you could be deeper off to the right you can you know, there's a waterslide that maybe unbeknownst to us circumstances just plunged your ass right into the deep end, right? Like, it's just a so much like, let's just wait into this pool. And everyone's doing something different. But it's not this like lap pool where like, you're good if and you're bad. If it's like we're just getting in the pool, like you might have a toe and you might have your whole body and you might be and what's funny is like you might be up to your neck, because you're standing in the deep end of the waters up to your neck or you might be in the shallow end, but you're willing to lay down up to your neck.

  Shahem 41:27

  What a beautiful analogy, like,

  KC Davis 41:29

  thank you. It just came to me.

  Shahem 41:32

  That was actually really, really good. I might have to use that. Really good. Yeah. I do have a session at 10. I don't know.

  KC Davis 41:41

  Well, we'll let you go. But can you tell everybody where they can find you if they want to follow you?

  Shahem 41:46

  Yes, I can be found at five h a h e m, on Tiktok and Instagram. And yeah, that's pretty much it. It's such a beautiful conversation. And I hope that somebody out here is questioning the term and the usage of the term codependency and understanding that your journey is important and exploring yourself is important. And no matter what, you deserve to feel safe. Yeah,

  KC Davis 42:15

  thank you. And we'll put that in the show notes for anybody who wants to link and thank you so much again, and I hope you come back and we can have more conversations about other things.

I’m excited about today’s guest because she has had a huge influence on me. I can confidently say that finding her research on self-compassion was a turning point in my healing journey. Do you need more self-compassion? Join us to learn more!

Dr. Kristin Neff is a renowned psychologist, self-care researcher, and author. Her work has had a profound impact on the field of psychology and has helped countless people cultivate self-acceptance and resilience.

Show Highlights:

• How self-compassion became Dr. Kristin’s main area of research

• Understanding self-esteem vs. self-compassion

• The three components of self-compassion: mindfulness, common humanity, and self-kindness

• How self-esteem creates comparison and social disconnection by being conditional and unstable

• How self-compassion gives the gift of authenticity

• The difference between fierce self-compassion and tender self-compassion

• How self-compassion helps us get past our shame

• Why self-compassion doesn’t mean indulgence

• Pathways and blocks to self-compassion

• The connection between self-compassion and psychological functioning

• How self-compassion helps when we fail and make mistakes

• Why the goal of practicing self-compassion is to be simply a compassionate mess who is completely human

• Why the practice of self-compassion has to start small with baby steps of warmth and support (What would you say to a friend?)

• A look at Dr. Kristin’s latest book, Fierce Self-Compassion

• How anger fits into self-compassion

Resources and Links:

Connect with Dr. Kristin and find many helpful resources: Website

Connect with KC: TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello, you sentient balls of stardust, this is Struggle Care, the self care podcast by a host that hates the term self care. And today I have a guest that I'm really excited about Dr. Kristin Neff, thank you so much for being here today.

  Dr. Kristin Neff 0:17

  Oh, thank you, KC, happy to be here.

  KC Davis 0:18

  I have to admit that I have been a little under the weather for like three days. And I was like, no matter what, I will not miss this recording. Okay, so the reason why I wanted to ask you to come on the podcast is because you have been such a huge influence on me, when you talk about self compassion, and the research behind it, that was a real turning point for me in really starting to heal and grow and get better in a way that sort of leaned me out of the self improvement kind of genre of getting better and more into the actual healing of feeling better. And so I wanted to ask you, how did self compassion become your main area of focus in your research?

  Dr. Kristin Neff 1:06

  Well, for me, it also started as a personal practice, I needed self compassion, I was a mess. I you know, I didn't invent the idea. I learned about self compassion when I first learned about mindfulness meditation. And it just made such a powerful difference to me, I was going through a very stressful time, and I started being more kind of supportive to myself. And I saw that the immediate difference it made, and this was when I was actually my last year of graduate school. And then I did two years of postdoctoral study with one of the country's leading self esteem researchers and I studied self concept development. And I started to see how we can come back to this how self compassion didn't have some of the problems associated with the need for high self esteem, that kind of endless treadmill of self improvement. So when I got to UT Austin, where I still am, I kind of thought, well, no one's really researched this before. But heck, they can study self esteem, they can study self compassion. So I started researching it, you know, really shortly after I got there about around 2000. And I'm just so blown away by not only how beneficial it is, but the applications just so many areas of life life, I mean, basically any area of life in which there's suffering or struggle with, there's a lot, it's irrelevant. So very quickly, it just became my life's work, I became devoted not only to research unit for the last 10 years, figuring out how to teach other people to practice being more self compassionate, because it's not just an idea. It's not just like a trait that some people have. And some people don't, it really is a practice, anyone can learn.

  KC Davis 2:37

  So how would you define self compassion, and then I also am curious how you would define self esteem because I feel like most of us, I mean, I grew up, I was one of the 80s, kind of a 90s kid. And I feel like a lot of the self help world when I was sort of growing up, and even today was this heavy focus on self esteem. I remember going through rehab at 16. And doing all these treatment assignments about self esteem, I remember having to look in the mirror and say, I am okay today. And people like me, and I write like giving myself these positive affirmations. And I remember thinking, this is not working. I do not believe these things. So can you tell us what the difference is?

  Yeah. So let me start by defining what self compassion is, and then I'll come back to self esteem. So self compassion is really just like compassion for others. You know, the Lenten compassion being with suffering, how are we with the tough stuff, whether that suffering comes from, you know, your hurricane, or COVID, or something difficult happens externally, or you're suffering because you feel you aren't good enough, or you've made a mistake, or you feel like a failure of those types of sources. And really, just like we work with a friend, we naturally be warm and supportive. When our friends hopefully for good friend, they say they're having a hard time we're present for them, we listen, we pay attention to them. And also the difference between compassion and pity is, hey, I've been there. It's inherently connected stance. It's not like I feel sorry for myself, or I feel sorry for you. It's just recognizing that everyone struggles, everyone's imperfect. That's what human life means, really. And so those are the three components mindfulness, being aware of difficulty, common humanity, recognizing this, this is shared and kindness, warmth, support. So the thing about self compassion is it's really unconditional in the sense that it's there for us. You know, we can be kind of supportive towards yourself when things are going well. But we're also especially kind of supportive towards yourself when things aren't going well. The difference between self esteem and self compassion, as you might say, self compassion is a stable unconditional friend. Self esteem is pretty much a fairweather friend. Right. So what do I mean by self esteem? It's important to define our terms. I'm referring to a positive judgment or evaluation of self like, I'm good are people like me? I'm great. These are positive judgments and values, you know, good as opposed to bad. So the thing about self esteem is that, and nothing wrong with having self esteem, it's actually psychologically better to delight yourself than to hate yourself. The problem is that it's contingent, it depends. Again, it's unstable. So typically, it depends on first of all feeling special and above average, it's not okay to be average, if I said, KC, yeah, your podcast is pretty average. Admit it, you feel hurt, right, I would feel hurt. You said Kristin, your work is pretty average. It's not okay to be average in our society, which means that technically, if we asked to be above average, it's technically, impossible for us to all have high self esteem at the same time. So we're setting ourselves up also in the sort of comparison, like is that person better than me, you're smarter than me or more attractive to be whatever it is. And that can create social disconnection, for instance, and we know one of the reasons kids start to bully others is to raise their self esteem. I'm the cool kid, you're the nerdy kid, I'm picking on you, I've got more power compared to you, that raises my self esteem. So that's a problem. Really big problem is that it's contingent on success, whatever we value, and so usually, what we value for our self esteem is social approval. Like you said, other people like me, well, that's great when they like you, but what happens when they don't like you? And how are you going to be authentic? If your self esteem is totally dependent on whether or not they like you, right? Or how we look? Actually for men and woman perceived attractiveness is huge. What happens when you start getting older or you know, you don't look the way the supermodels? Look, you don't have the filter on your camera when you post it on Instagram, right? Your self esteem takes a hit. And then also performance, right? So we have high self esteem when we succeed for what happens when we fail or make a mistake. We feel badly about ourselves. So the difference with self compassion is when we make a mistake, or other people don't like us, or you know, we're feeling inadequate in some way. That's precisely when we give ourselves compassion. Oh, well, it's only human to make mistakes. What can I learn from this? Right? Okay, so I'm imperfect. That's part of being human. That's okay. Whoever said I was supposed to be perfect. Other people don't like me sometimes. Ouch that hurt. Well, can I like myself, at least, you know, do I really want to twist myself to contort to meet other people's expectations if it's not true to me. So those are the types of difference. So just to show you one study I did on comparing self esteem and self compassion, we found that the stability of self worth the both forms of self worth, but self compassion is unconditional, because I'm a flawed human being, self esteem is usually conditional, because I'm the way I want to be or because other people like me, or because I'm better than others. So the self worth linked to self compassion was my first stable over time that the self is worth that comes from self esteem.

  That makes me think, also, when you talk about self esteem, being sort of contingent on how you are in comparison to others, or how others think of you, that's not always lined up with your actual values, like people can like you for the wrong reasons and hate you for the right reasons. And and so it that makes it even more turbulent?

  Dr. Kristin Neff 7:54

  And that absolutely, yeah, so one of the biggest findings of the research is self compassion is linked to authenticity, right? You know what some of the feedback powers your self compassion practice helped me personally? Well, I'm still very flawed, I still got a lot of problems, but I'm authentically flag, who I am. Because my self worth is contingent on other people liking me. And that's one of the gifts that gives you you can be your true self. And also, by the way, it doesn't mean some people think it means you're complacent, you aren't going to try to change or improve. That's not the case at all. It's why do you want to improve, I want to improve not to be acceptable as am I'm already acceptable. I want to improve because I care about myself, and I don't want to keep suffering and causing problems with myself and others. And what that does is when it's safe to fail and make mistakes, that means I can actually learn from them. If I'm just full of shame, Oh, I'm such a failure. Everyone hates me. It's not exactly conducive mindset to like, figure out what happened or try to learn from the situation or try again. So it's actually a better motivator is more effective motivator than the motivator of shame or self criticism.

  KC Davis 8:59

  I'm so glad you said that. Because when I talk online, and so you know, my focus is mainly on how people care for their homes and their self in periods of struggle. And one of the major push backs I get is, well, if I'm being compassionate towards myself, when my house is a mess, and everything is dirty, and I'm not really caring for myself, like, won't that just enable me just give me permission to stay stuck? And it's interesting, because in my own experience, it's the opposite. There's nothing more motivating than real self compassion.

  Dr. Kristin Neff 9:31

  Yeah, we know that empirically. So here's the difference. So I like to turn these fierce and tender self compassion, tender self compassion is about unconditional self acceptance. It's also about accepting the fact that life's imperfect, we have difficult emotions. It's kind of the acceptance of the imperfection of life. Fear self compassion is about taking action, right? What can we do in terms of our behaviors and our situations not to suffer? So even while unconditionally accepting yourself and the fact that your house is a mess doesn't mean that you're less worthy person because it that your house was mess, you don't have to identify with it. But if your house being a mess is causing you suffering, if it's making you harder for you to, you know, relax or to get things done, or it's actually causing stress in your life, then it's actually not helping you. So compassion is about the alleviation of suffering, right. So if you're doing things that are causing suffering, like the way you live, or something's causing you suffering, it's not compassionate to let it slide. But it's aimed at our behaviors and our situations, we need to try to change our behaviors and our situations, to maximize well being at the same time that we as people are worth is like, given the fact that we are at imperfect human being is all we need. That's the only bar we need to check to be worthy of compassion, which remember is kindness and support. It doesn't mean you know, maybe you aren't doing things, right. It's not fake, because you don't say, oh, Kristin, you're great. Actually, Kristin, and this has happened. That was a really unkind thing. You said, that really hurt that person's feelings, that self compassion now saying, and you're terrible, horrible person, I hate you. That's not self compassion. But saying, Kristin, you said, what you just said was really unkind. Pay, I understand your stress is only human, it happens sometimes. But this person is hurting, what can we do to try to repair the situation. So for instance, we find that self compassionate people are more able to take responsibility for their mistakes or things they do, because it's safe to do so. And they're more willing to try to repair them again, because you have the emotional resource to do so.

  KC Davis 11:34

  So I want to take a short break here. And then when we come back, I want to talk about that word tender.

  Okay, we're back with Dr. Kristin Neff. I love that word tender. Because what I was trained to be a therapist, we talked a lot about this term, unconditional positive regard that we're supposed to have for our clients. And when I heard you use that word tender, something kind of switched for me when I realized that when I am compassionate towards myself, it's not necessarily an unconditional positive regard, because sometimes I haven't done something positive, but it's an unconditionally tender regard. Because if that connected

  Dr. Kristin Neff 12:14

  conditionally positive evaluation, but to the extent that warmth and kindness is a positive emotion, which it is, it is positive, right, really good analogy, I think an intuitive one is an ideally compassionate parent, you know, most of us are not ideally, compassion raised by them. But if you imagine an ideally compassionate parent, that parent loves their child unconditionally, when their child fails, does something wrong, just mean hurtful. The bottom line is I love you, I'm here for you, right? But a compassionate parent doesn't stop there. A compassionate parent wouldn't say, oh, that's fine, get all this, skip school, use drugs, whenever you know, don't worry about it. That's not because that's causing their child's suffering. A compassionate parent is I care about you? How can I help sometimes it may be kind of tough drawing boundaries, listen is really important that you follow these rules. Because if you don't follow these rules, you aren't gonna learn the skills you need to get by in life. You know, that is true love. And the same thing with ourselves. Complacency is not caring for ourselves, it's actually undermining ourselves. But shame and self hatred is also undermining ourselves. So we can combine unconditional warm support, being there for ourselves with some real hard honestly, this really needs to change. It's not working for me, you know, if I want to be happy, if I don't want to suffer, I gotta either me, I have to change or my situation. So fear, self compassion is also I think, for instance, the Black Lives Matter movement, or the me to movement. These are pure Self Compassion movements, when people rise up and say, Hey, this, you can't treat me this way. I'm valuable, you know, this, this situation is wrong, or maybe your work situation, you're being treated unfairly. Or maybe you're in a relationship where you're not being treated well, part of self compassion is taking action against either behaviors, yours or others, or situations to try to engender wellbeing and alleviate suffering,

  KC Davis 14:03

  When I find that when self esteem is sort of the measure, and there's a lot of shame involved, people can't be accountable, because when that truth is being brought to them about something that's either not going right or something they've done, that's harmful, they can't get unless you can get to a place I don't even know how to it's like, We're such social creatures, that when I'm feeling the social rejection, that is the only thing I can feel. It's the only thing I'm preoccupied with. And it's the only literally my fight or flight kicks in and goes I have to find out how to be acceptable again. And when that's happening, I'm inherently centering me. And I'm not even able to look or be accountable to the thing that I might have done.

  Dr. Kristin Neff 14:46

  Exactly. Shame is incredibly self focused. I mean, it's human. It's natural. It's we evolved to feel shame, but it's so self focused and it shuts down our ability to learn. When we're flooded with shame. We actually can't learn from our mistakes all we can

  Do is like hide in a corner and say I'm so terrible, please don't hate me. And again, shame still rises for me because it is actually evolutionary emotion. So shame arises and like, okay, human beings feel shame, that's okay, this hurts. How can I help myself in the moment, you know, and often helping yourself in the moment means, well, maybe I need to apologize, maybe I need to do something different. But here's the thing, some sources of shame are from social injustice, prejudice. So for instance, we've done a lot of research with teens who are, you know, LGBT plus community, who are shamed all the time. So in that case, it's like, screw you shame, I'm not going to buy into this message perfectly wonderful, just as I am. So but you know, if the shame, like my case, did say something mean to someone, then the shame was playing a function and saying, Hey, Kristen, who, you know, that was not good. And then I can move on from there. If we get stuck in it, that's when it really holds us back.

  KC Davis 15:55

  Yeah, I remember having these feelings when I first entered rehab, and people would try to help myself low self worth, by saying things like, oh, but you're so pretty, and you're so smart. And you're so these things. And there's this real sense of, you know, no matter how many good attributes you try to ascribe to me, I have this sense of if you only knew, and I think that's where that authenticity comes into place, because it really felt like it will not penetrate my heart and make any difference, unless I'm being fully known by that person. And it wasn't until I was able to get authentic and honest, and let everybody see kind of all of the ugly insides, then receive that sort of compassion from others that I was in a place to actually hear. And here are some issues that we may want to look at KC?

  Dr. Kristin Neff 16:45

  Absolutely. You know, and the slight problem with that, although it's natural is that we don't want our compassion to be contingent, either. Everyone, you know, people in prison are people who've made horrible mistakes of their life, they're worthy of compassion as well. All human beings are worthy of compassion, right? Something that's an intrinsic human right, compassion. Again, that doesn't mean indulgence. That doesn't mean letting you get you know, what you do for people to try to help society or help them is a different issue. But our worth isn't dependent on our attributes, you know, and also, these are attributes are constantly changing, right? We all get older, I'm getting older. Now I'm seeing that one, you know, we go up and down, none of this is really stable. The only thing stable is that, at least in the course of our lifetime, is that we are aware human beings who are experiencing life, and that's actually the source of compassion. And you know, you could get spiritual on this, if you want it, I have no problem going there. And it's not like generated by our small cells, it's part of being a part of this larger interconnected universe. You know, we're one in many ways, we're all part of this larger, interdependent whole. So our worth comes from being part of this larger, independent whole, it's supposed to be ego based, like, because I went to grad school. And because I did this right look a certain way. That's where my worth comes from egocentric way of looking at it, do you think that in order to have self compassion, you have to be able to humanize others first, like if you're sort of seeing others, as if you're being really harshly judgmental to others, if you're having to kind of push others down to push yourself up, if you've got whether it's internal bias, or all these things, like I imagined it would be hard to extend yourself the grace and compassion that you're not extending to others or that you believe others don't? Because if they don't deserve it, then how could I deserve it? Yeah, so there's a lot of pathways to compassion and a lot of different blocks to compassion, I, from what my understanding, also with my research, it's not like some people say, you have to have compassion for yourself before you can have compassion for others. That doesn't seem to be true. A lot of people are very compassionate to others. And that oneself, I wouldn't necessarily say that you have to be compassionate for others before yourself, either, because there are probably some people who, whatever reason connect with their own experience and not those of others. So I wouldn't say there's a halfway but some of the principles are the same, the principles of understanding the nature of humanity, and the fact that, you know, we aren't totally in control of our actions, we do our best, but there's so many causes and conditions, you know, culture, history, genetics, environment, so many things that are out of our control, even our thoughts. I mean, how good are you at controlling your thoughts, you know? Exactly. Right. So so many things that are out of our control, understanding principles like that definitely help foster compassion. For some people that's the doorway in is because they can see it with others, they might be able to then make a U turn and do it for themselves. Yeah, I wouldn't be comfortable saying it has to be the case. But what we do knows when you learn to be more self compassionate, it does increase compassion for others, because again, we're understanding the bigger picture of our shared humanity, but it also does big time is actually gives us the

  resources to care for others. Not everyone, but most people are pretty compassionate and caring to others and not to themselves. But what happens is they burn out, they give and they give, and they give. And you know, they always say yes to other people, and they're always trying to help others. And they're, they deny themselves, they don't meet their own needs. And eventually, their cup runs dry. So um, self compassion is very good for decreasing caregiver burnout.

  KC Davis 20:22

  So somebody asked you that you published a lot of research on the connection between self compassion and psychological functioning. I think a lot of people see things like self compassion, I think that's nice. And people should feel nice about themselves. But they don't necessarily understand that it's not just a nice thing to teach people that it actually helps them raise their psychological level of functioning, that it actually can be a way of them getting better and feeling better, and sort of that, you know, the high tide that raises all ships. Can you talk some about that connection?

  Dr. Kristin Neff 20:57

  Yeah. So again, if you think of the word compassion with suffering, how are we with suffering, right, and it's usually the suffering the painful emotions of painful thoughts that derails us psychologically might lead to things like addiction, or suicidal ideation, or eating disorders, or depression or anxiety, because when difficult feelings or thoughts or situations arise, we get overwhelmed by them, we aren't able to cope effectively with and we get overwhelmed. And we're still just trying to cope by whatever means necessary. We're just trying to survive. And so by having a resource, which is warmth, care, support, kindness, what can I do to help kind of unconditional self acceptance, but also that realizing that maybe, how can I change that in a way that's helpful and supportive? That resource is, first of all, you might call it a type of emotion regulation, because it helps us being so overwhelmed by the difficulty. It also is a form of resilience, we might call it a form of resilience and coping. It's huge, right? It's not just good feelings, it's a way of approaching difficulty. In fact, sometimes it doesn't feel good at all, you know, it's really allowed opening to the incredible pain and grief and distress and all the difficult stuff, we open to it, we don't sugarcoat it. But we do open to it's love. And it's the love the warmth, that's actually the strength that helps us get through it. In fact, I think if you don't do it, if you just kind of grin and bear it or just shut down, you can function but it's going to come back to get your body's going to start holding all the trauma you experienced in your processing it. One of the things the ability to open to pain with warmth allows us to process difficult emotions, so they aren't stuck in our body so that we can work through them. So we can kind of integrate them in our understanding of ourselves in the world. If we don't, that all that stuff just gets stuck gets shoved in Eskalene. Things like heart attacks or you know, physical problems are coming back and like dramatic we're experiencing from my point of view, self compassion is really essential to leading a healthy life. And we're also showing that it's like basically, marker of good therapy, doesn't matter what type of therapy you use. If it's good therapy, it's gonna raise yourself compassion. It's kind of like what it is, is how do I can I relate to difficulty suffering stress difficult does in a way that that helps whether the harms is kind of like self evident, from my point of view at both course, we want to do that. Why don't we? Okay, so when we come back from the short break, I'm going to ask you a series of sort of negative messages and talk about the difference about what would that look like from a self esteem standpoint versus a self compassion standpoint?

  KC Davis 23:37

  Okay, so the idea being that, let's say that I'm going about my day, and I make a mistake at work. And the first thing that comes to my mind is me going, Oh, I'm so stupid. I think when we come from like a self esteem perspective, we're often told that the way to combat that is to go no, you're smart. When it's like, well, but in that moment, like I wasn't, that was actually me not being able to think through something or that was actually a mistake that I made. And so I think that's why for so many people that often feels really hollow as a response, like, What do you mean, replace the negative messages with positive ones? I don't believe that I'm smart. I made a stupid mistake. But what would self compassion sound like in that moment?

  Dr. Kristin Neff 24:21

  Yeah, so certainly is not positive thinking anyway, that falls flat. You don't say I am smart. There's a couple things you can do. First of all, one of the things about self compassion is remember, it's kind of separating ourselves from our behaviors or the situations. So yeah, it was a stupid mistake. It doesn't mean that you're stupid. It also doesn't mean you're not stupid. In a way the kind of what you are is irrelevant. Right? Because you are a human being who did the best you could in the moment, but there might be a way you could do better next time, right? So it'd be like okay, that behavior was not good. It didn't work out right. Maybe it was a stupid mistake, but me

  First thing you do is give yourself tender compassion for the pain of that, oh, oh, man, that hurts. I feel ashamed. I regret it. Ouch. So you kind of where you're with your pain of that you kind of hold it, give yourself some space, some comfort, you know, everyone makes mistakes. It's okay. But that's like step one. And then okay, well, that didn't work out. So could I do differently next time that might be more effective. This is how we learn mistakes. And again, even if we do it more effectively next time, it's not because that'll make us a good person. We're already flawed human being is okay, who we are. But we want not to make mistakes, because it helps us to be happy and healthy. And whatever our goals are, it helps them to achieve them right or do well at work, whatever our goal is. So it's really, really separating our worth is people from our behaviors and the situations we find ourselves in another thing, self compassion, because compassion, I'm just complexity, you know, understanding of the causes or conditions. It's also we have lots of parts of ourselves, the part of myself that made that decision maybe wasn't working that well. But maybe there was another voice or another part of myself that wasn't engaged. So instead of saying, I am bad, or I am good, it's like, well, first of all, I have a lot of different parts, and they're neither bad nor good. There's just some of them are effective or skillful or aren't effective, or skillfulness. Focus on what our behaviors are, what gets manifested. Our intrinsic worth is unquestioned. That's the bottom line of self compassion. All human beings, no matter what they do any awareness, you know, and if you think of the thoughts in your head are different than the thoughts in my head, but as your awareness different than my awareness, that's an open question.

  KC Davis 26:36

  Well, I think it's important to say that we don't have to believe that we're worthy to treat ourselves with compassion, like it's actually not a prerequisite, like, there's a lot of people that don't believe they're worthy, but you actually like, you can still treat yourself as if you are like, there's no like worthiness police, can I bust down the door be like, no, no, no.

  Dr. Kristin Neff 26:54

  Well, and the thing is, you have to ask yourself, when a baby is born, do they have to, like, get their high school degree? Or what's a GED enough to be worthy? I mean, right. So it's like, there's something intrinsic to being a human being who's aware is where the worthiness comes from. Now, for people who were treated by their parents is that they weren't worthy of kindness or compassion. It can be scary to have self compassion and can be difficult. But there's even a term we have for it called Backdraft. It's like when I give myself unconditional love, I immediately remember all the conditions under which I was unloved. And that could come up. And so that's something else we have to have compassion for, you know, it's natural doesn't mean you're doing it wrong, and actually means you're opening to the pain so that it can be healed, right? It has to be dealt with. It's totally natural. But yeah, it's really the thing about compassion is it's not self focused. It's really not about me as an individual. It's about life, the human experience, which is again, which is intrinsically worthy of compassion. As long as you're a flawed human being. That's the only checkbox you have to check to be worthy of compassion can take a while, because we aren't taught that. But again, as you act that way, eventually, there's a part of you who will start to be able to see that oh, yeah, that's right. I'm a flawed human being doing the best I can.

  KC Davis 28:14

  I talked to my book about my sort of journey with self affirmations and how they always felt like someone was just asking me to believe in Santa Claus, and you can't really make yourself believe something,

  Dr. Kristin Neff 28:23

  by the way, you aren't getting stronger every day. I'm not I'm fifth year, that's the truth. The only one that ever really worked was when I finally started saying to myself, I'm allowed to be human. Yes, exactly. That's the truth. One of the sayings we have in the self compassion world is the goal of practice is simply to be a compassionate mess, right? So you will still be a mess. I've been practicing for 30 years now I'm still making mistakes, but I have a compassionate mess. So your goal is chess, just from getting it right to be getting it opening your heart that starts to become your goal. And then when your hearts open, even when things are painful, your heart open, feels good, you feel connected to all of life feels good, that actually becomes your primary goal. This mean you don't even give up on all the other stuff as well. But it's not as important. The point is not to perfect ourselves, but to perfect our love, you know, and that when once you you shift your aim in that way, then things are much more workable, much more doable. You are human. Yeah. Whenever people ask me, you know, I've been trying self compassion, and I'm just not very good at it. What do I always say? Well, I mean, then you can just have self compassion about how hard self compassion is. Absolutely. You start where you are. That's actually often when I say to people, what's your current source of struggle? I feel so frustrated because I can't seem to practice self compassion. Well, what if a good friend came to you and said that would you say us cuz you're stupid idiot. Just give up? No, you probably say, Well, of course, it's hard. You know, you're given your history and it's challenging and you know, you just take it day by day and

  KC Davis 30:00

  So that type of warmth and support you can give toward anything, including how hard it is sometimes to practice self compassion, but you can also start small, you're just a baby step, you're just like, ah, you know, just kind of like a little bit, just a little more arms and get your foot in the door. And then you build on that little bit of warmth, that little bit of understanding, having a tiny bit of patience for some people path is, you know, you walk a little slowly, but you might go farther, right? So it's just about taking it moment by moment, trying to approach each moment with warmth, that sense of support, how can I help myself in this moment?

  One of the things that that I'm thinking about is, because we talk a lot about, you know, what would a friend say? What would a friend say? And it's made me when I say to a friend, yeah, what would I say to a friend, it's really made me realize how much even that is something we sometimes have to learn. Because for so much of my life, I would say to a friend, no, you're smart, and beautiful. And there's nothing wrong with you. And you. And I had to learn how to just hold space for a friend and say, yeah, yeah, maybe it was a fail, I fail two people fail, it doesn't change that I love you. It doesn't change. Failure, you fail doesn't mean you are a failure. Like you have to sum up the whole your entire worth is a failure. But I think it's powerful that it whether we're applying it to ourselves, or trying to have compassion to others, sometimes we really haven't raised with the belief that it's about fixing it. It's about convincing, it's something entirely different.

  Dr. Kristin Neff 31:27

  Yeah, you know, it's both right. So that's why you have to talk about the fierce of the tender. My new book is called fierce self compassion, because people get a little confused. We don't need to fix ourselves, we are fully worthy as we are. But some of our behaviors and our situations can use a little work, and that we need to honor that. Because if we don't, that's not helping either. So it's really disentangling our worth is people from some of our behaviors or situations which, and you know, again, we just do the best we can, they aren't going to be perfect. And that's okay. But we still try. And of course, as Carl Rogers said, the curious paradox is the more I accept myself, the more I can change, right, because it gives us the emotional resources to try to make effective I love the idea of fierce self compassion, and what that means about anger and women. Because I feel like as women, we've been told that anger is not okay to have. And that anger is a result of sort of maybe being unhealthy or not being at peace. When self fear self compassion really reframes what that anger is about, like, you shouldn't be angry, if you're being abused, you should be angry if other people are being abused. Yeah. So it's simple to say is that so simple to do, but simple to understand is, when anger is aimed at alleviating suffering, it's helpful. And when anger causes suffering, it's not helpful, right. And so if someone attacks my child, you better believe I'm gonna get angry. And that anger is involved emotion, that's going to give me a lot of things, it's going to focus me, it's going to energize me, it's gonna allow me to be brave, it's going to reduce the fear response, so that I can protect my child, you know that anger is really useful in the moment, but it's aimed at alleviating suffering. Now, if the person who you know, maybe, so maybe I stand up to that person, but once it starts getting personal, and I start, like getting angry at people, and kind of dehumanizing them, or harming them in some way that it's no longer helpful, but it has a role, it can be harnessed, we need to harness it for the alleviation of suffering. But if we just cut it out, if we suppress it, if we say we don't have it, well, that disempowers us because anger is, is an important source of power, when it's harnessed and channeled correctly. And actually easier said than done, I still struggle. But it is something we don't want to reject. We want to embrace,

  KC Davis 33:45

  I can imagine that if you're caught up in a self esteem sort of rat race where you have to be above others, anger becomes your weapon to push others down to push others away, to tear them down, because that's the only way that you can feel good. But if you've been practicing self compassion, I imagine it's a lot easier to let anger be your advocate, instead of you know, harming people.

  Dr. Kristin Neff 34:06

  Yeah, well, also, when you accept this part of yourself, you know, there's nothing wrong with this part of yourself. In fact, it's very useful. Again, this is the button it is a big butt because what happens we're angry is we just forget I mean, carried away. So it is challenging, right to work with, I'm not going to pretend it's not I struggle, but it definitely has a role, especially when it comes to standing up to injustice. Because what happens as we can see the tender and the fierce need to be imbalanced for two fears of a really angry, we have no tender acceptance of ourselves or others, then that's not good. But if we're too accepting, and we, you know, is no fierceness, then that's not good for ourselves for others, right. So it's really the balance. It's much, you know, will fall off balance. We try to reintegrate and it's a process. It's not like an end point we get to finally, that's really great.

  KC Davis 34:55

  Well, I really appreciate the time that you've taken. It's this is a topic that is something that we could talk about for hours. But if people wanted to know more about self compassion, where could they go to read your books and learn more from you?

  Dr. Kristin Neff 35:08

  Well, easiest place to start is if you Google self compassion, you'll find my website self compassion.org. You can take a self compassion test, you can read research hundreds of articles on there by a lots of different researchers. There's a guided practice, I've got videos, things you can read. And then you can also links to order by books. I've got four at this point. So and some of them are practice based, some of them are more just kind of talking about my own journey with self compassion.

  KC Davis 35:34

  Awesome. Well, thank you so much, and I appreciate every bit of it.

  Dr. Kristin Neff 35:39

  Thank You will KC It was fun talking to you

I’m so excited to have my first in-person guest on the podcast! Frankie Simmons is here, and she’s literally sitting right next to me. I love Frankie’s TikTok content, and I resonate with so  much of what she says. I feel like she is a younger version of me, as we have similar backgrounds and healing journeys. I hope you will join us for this conversation!

Show Highlights:

• Get to know Frankie and our thoughts on being fellow Texans

• How Frankie exited her background in Christianity and fear and began to explore the world

• Why Frankie does TikToks about her functional responses to trauma and finding self-trust

• The journey from fear and insecurity into feeling worthy and accepted

• How Frankie experienced a mind-blowing shift in her approach to life

• Why Frankie has chosen to be sober–and how that has changed her life and relationships

• Frankie’s journey to understand herself as a confident introvert

• How we can experience a different version of life when we accept ALL of ourselves

• What things are like in Frankie’s relationship with love and acceptance

• How it harms us to be taught that we should feel guilty if life is “easy” and not a constant struggle

• How Frankie and KC describe their current relationship with Christianity, faith, and spirituality

Resources and Links:

Connect with Frankie Simmons: TikTok and Instagram

Connect with KC: TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to Struggle Care. This is your host, Casey Davis. And I am so excited to bring you my first ever in Person guest Frankie Simmons,

  Frankie Simmons 0:18

  That's me

  KC Davis 0:19

  Sitting literally right next to me. Okay, so Frankie, the reason that I asked you to come and do an in person podcast with me is because first of all, I love your material. And I feel like I really resonate with a lot of the things that you say. And and I mean this in like, the least patronizing way, I almost feel like you're like a younger me.

  Frankie Simmons 0:39

  Yeah.

  KC Davis 0:40

  And not in the sense that like, oh, I learned those sorts of things years ago, but like, I feel like you are at the same place as I am in terms of our like, general healing journeys. You're just younger than me.

  Frankie Simmons 0:52

  Wow. Honored to hear that. Cool. Thank you.

  KC Davis 0:54

  And so I truly did not even have like a pre conversation with you before we literally you walked in the door, and I was like, here are headphones. And I don't even really have like a full agenda. I just wanted to kind of ask you about yourself. Because I knew that if I did that on the phone, that we ended up having a really great conversation, and I would kick myself and I'm recording it. So do I understand correctly that you're an expand Jellicle? Okay, so I think that that is one of the first things that I really related to you about because I am so I got sober when I was like 16. So I ended up in rehab. And it was like a 12 step rehab, that very much pushed like spirituality, not any necessarily any religion specifically. But they definitely said like, if you cannot figure out a way to have a relationship with a God of your own understanding, like you are not going to stay sober. And that was scary, because I didn't believe in anything. And I started to like, wake up every morning before everybody else. And I would go outside, and this was in like a cow pasture in Oklahoma. This is where this place was. And I would sit on a bench and I would like watch the sun rise. And I would literally pray to a god I did not think existed, and sort of eventually sort of felt as though okay, like, there's something happening here. And then I got out of that rehab after like 18 and a half months, but it was so heavy on behavioral modification that I was terrified to trust myself. I really believed like if I thought something, I had to run it by like a panel of people. And I had to do exactly, I had to have all of these like accountability. And I had to look at every single thing I was doing and make sure I wasn't being selfish.

  Frankie Simmons 2:41

  Yeah.

  KC Davis 2:41

  Right, like, really be insightful. And I feel like the majority of people that talk about like a mental health journey or a healing journey, almost experience like the opposite, where it's like, they go from a place of not being aware to a place of self awareness, and understanding like their own motives and understanding why they do the things they do and learning how to be introspective. And to not just blame others, but to kind of see where they're participating and maybe things in their life that aren't going the way they want. So I feel like that's the majority of the people that I know when they talk about the journey. And I think that's what attracted me to your content was because I feel like and maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like you would agree with me that I it was like the opposite though. Like I started out hyper introspective. Yeah, very much like, what are my motives? Do I have pure motives? Am I being altruistic enough? Am I being humble enough? Like just constantly navel gazing? Because first it was sobriety, like I truly believed that if I wasn't, quote, unquote, spiritually fit, that I would start using drugs again, and then I would die. And then I ended up converting to Christianity when I was like, 19. And there were some things about that church that I really appreciated that I think really helped me in terms of this idea of God as like, not this like judgmental policeman in the sky. But I still ended up with this sense of like, I have to hyper analyze every move. Yeah, every decision, every emotion. And I had this as a sponsor that kind of went into this. So like, let me just give one example. I remember calling my sponsor one time, because I felt so guilty. And I truly believe that like, if I didn't like say it out loud, and kind of like a tone for it, that it would cause me to go use drugs or it would cause me to like be cut off from God or whatever. And I called her and I was like, I just need to confess like, I have a theater degree. I went to u and T. And I had this class called movement class, where you would learn like, you know, like, how to play, let not play like stage fight or these sort of things. And we had this one class about like leaps and jumps. So think like, you know, Nobody puts baby in a corner. Right?

  Frankie Simmons 5:01

  Yeah.

  KC Davis 5:02

  And so that's what we did. And there was like this really cute guy in my class. And I was like, oh, I want to be partner with him. And then I was. And later that day, I was talking to my boyfriend at the time. And he was like, what would you do today, and I told him about this class. I was like, and we were leaping and jumping, it was cool. And I got to like, run, and this guy would like, put me in the air. And I had this like, sudden flash of a thought, which was like, I wonder if he that makes him jealous, because that would be nice. Because it feels good when someone's jealous about you. But after the conversation, I was like, wrecked with this guilt of like, I was trying to incite jealousy. And I call and this woman who was like, my spiritual mentor at the time, reamed me on like, if you can't not think about yourself, like, you are not going to be in this relationship anymore. Like, if you continue to harm other people, like then you are not ready for a relationship. And just this idea that like I needed to be spiritually fit enough to deserve to be in a relationship. So I know, that's like a really long story, but all that to say, that's where I began.

  Frankie Simmons 6:09

  Yeah, no, I feel that so much of just like, actually, the issue is not that I don't understand what's happening. It's that I'm like, making too much meaning out of the things that's happening. And I think that's so interesting that like, because for me, it was I grew up in Christianity, it was like, just everything I am was like, shaped through that. And it's interesting to think about, like coming into it later in life, but at like such a vulnerable place where you're like, my whole world just fell apart. And now I need to rebuild it. Like it almost has that similarity of like,

  KC Davis 6:36

  Yeah, totally.

  Frankie Simmons 6:36

  I'm curious how that feels like

  KC Davis 6:38

  Well, yeah, cuz I think as a child, it's like, you have nothing. And so your entire life is built on the foundation of like, this is how you understand the world. And I do think it was very similar, because it was like a world ending event to go to rehab.

  Frankie Simmons 6:53

  Yeah.

  KC Davis 6:54

  And then there's this fear of like, I don't ever want to be that person again. I'll ever want to be in that kind of pain.

  Frankie Simmons 7:00

  Yeah, no, that makes sense. And it is like that fear, like, I'll do anything like, I'll believe whatever I need to believe to, like, not go back to that place where it's like, the way that I grew up. It's just like, the fear of hell is like, so baked into your bones that it's like, it literally doesn't matter what you asked me to do, if like, I don't have to go to that place, then like, cool, I'm on board. But yeah, and that fear, just like constantly keeping you from actually getting to have like, even like an authentic thought process where you just like, go on a decision making journey and approach anything with curiosity, because there's like this end goal that you always have. So you just don't get to like, even just explore or expand or ever, like, grow beyond that point. Because it's like, constantly, it just will follow you forever if you let it.

  KC Davis 7:43

  I remember this like guy that came to the church one time I was talking about, like, his spiritual gifts and how he could hear a God and he would talk about like, walking into his closet in the morning and being like, God, what should I wear today? And then like, choosing what to wear to I mean, like, that's how intense it felt like it was

  Frankie Simmons 7:59

  yeah, no, I remember people being like, if you lose your watch, and you try to find your watch without asking God, where your watches that is you acting out of your own wisdom and like not giving your life over to God. It's just like, there's not a single thought that is free from like, this could be a sin. And this could be like you your nature, like coming in to destroy everything.

  KC Davis 8:20

  Yeah. So how did you exit that?

  Frankie Simmons 8:23

  It really started with I think, like shifting my politics, I went off to college. And immediately I remember very specifically, I was on Tumblr, and in like 2013, and post popped up on Tumblr that said, I don't exactly remember exactly what was going on. So this might not be exactly but it was like every House Republican just voted against, like equal pay for women. If you're a woman, why are you a Republican? And I was like, I'm not anymore. Cool. Like, it was just because I just been so like, brainwashed that the moment I got exposed to something else, I was like, Oh, this makes so much more sense, like, so I was shifting, like, politically, like over that time, which to me was like, not at all there was like, no conflict between that and my faith. Because I was like, Yeah, this is what Jesus wanted, obviously. But I kind of like then got to the point where I was like, and I think maybe gay people should be allowed to do whatever they want and be whoever they want. And that was the point where it was like, Oh, I can't actually continue to pursue that and stay in community with the people that I'm in community with right now. And I remember like, just sitting in my bed and being like, if God is who I've always been told he is, and he's not actually afraid of my question, I was realizing that like, I've never actually allowed myself to ask the open ended questions because growing up in the church, there's this like, yeah, you're gonna have doubts, ask the questions, like five steps in of like, I know that this is true. And I know that this is true. And I know God loves this. And I know God hates this. I'm having an issue with this one part of that, can you help me not have an issue with it anymore? Like, it's you're always assuming that like, the end of the doubt is not having it anymore. There's never like a question that could lead you in a different direction. And so I was like, I have to just let myself actually Approach a question with a willingness to have my mind changed, or else I'm never going to actually know. And so I just like started exploring, just like, what does the Bible actually say about all of these questions that I had. And so it was really that first that like, started to crack things. And then I think just from there, like realizing how much of a lack of love there was in the way that I had been taught to relate to myself and to relate to the world and being in a place where I'm told that like, God is love. Meanwhile, you're standing on this foundation that is like just fear, like, more than anything else. And it's like a version of love that is all filtered through fear. And, yeah, it was just like, oh, I don't think this actually makes sense to me anymore. And so it was really just that that, like, stepped me out of it. And then, but from there, I was like, in the midst of it also going on a lot of like, opening the doors to my own, like mental health journey. I was like, in this place where I was like, really navigating everything. And I started to watch myself go to these other spaces of like, trying to practice like my therapy homework, or trying to engage with other forms of spirituality and watching myself have a very like, fundamentalist framework and how I practice those things like continuing to come to everything, like I am broken. And if I journaled for three hours every day, maybe I will be less broken. And having just like, so much black and white thinking and everything, and I just started realizing, like, okay, it's not actually enough, I actually need to take steps for the church to leave me because this whole way of like relating to myself and relating to the world is like, the only pathway my brain knows how to follow. And I just need better pathways. Because this one like is not, I just keep running into more walls. And I think that was like a big thing to like, take this conscious step of like, I don't want the foundation of my whole world to be that I'm a terrible person anymore. And that I need to take all these steps to try to be less terrible. Like, I would like to move from a space of like, what if I'm good, actually, maybe I'm just kind of started to run this experiment of like, what if I started treating myself like I actually was trustworthy, just to see what happens and to see if everything falls apart the way that I was always told that it could be. And it kind of changed everything. So

  KC Davis 12:11

  that was so profound. When you said, it wasn't enough for me to leave the church, I had to take steps for the church to leave me. And I do really resonate with a lot of what you say, especially when you talk about like, the fear of hell, like I didn't necessarily have the fear of hell, but I had like, it was like hell on earth. You know what I mean? Yeah, you have this tech talk recently, that really spoke to me where you talked about how you don't believe that there are parts of you that are, like, inherently bad, that need to let go sit in a corner and hate themselves? And will you talk about that for a second? Because that very much spoke to some of my experience? And like where I am today?

  Frankie Simmons 12:51

  Yeah, I think that was something that I feel like found me as I was just like, basically learning about the nervous system, and how like, your body responds to trauma, because I suddenly started to see all of these parts of myself that I just like, hated and thought were so annoying, as like, Oh, these are actually very functional responses to like, the way that I was taught to view the world and through the situations that I was put into. And I think it really helped me think about like, what if I just got to sit down and have like conversations with those parts of myself and be like, What are you like looking for right now? And what do you need, and starting to move from, like, a default assumption of self trust. And I think sometimes when we hear about self trust, like, I remember one time, a mentor of mine looked at me and said, however you are feeling in this moment is the correct way for you to feel. And I was like, no, like, I feel selfish. Sometimes I get like, jealous of other people. I get like mad. And there's like, all these parts of myself like that are obviously not correct. And being able to see like, okay, yeah, not like however I feel it's however, I get to act and like, that's the correct way for me to act. But like, however I am feeling is an understandable way for me to feel. And it's a feeling that I need to have to be able to like stay in relationship with myself. And that was so helpful to be able to, like hold with tension, because I think a lot of times we hear people talking about like self trust, and we hear, Oh, I just get to go do whatever I want now. And obviously we know that that doesn't work out. And that isn't kind to other people. But being able to be like No, any part of me deserves a conversation with me. So yeah, I don't believe that there's any part of me that was created to just be told to go sit down and shut up and never be heard from again. But I also don't believe that there was any one part of me that was designed to be like, put in the driver's seat of my life and call all the shots with no authority. And I really try to relate to myself as I just have a really wide board of advisors and I get to like go sit down at the table with all these different things and be like, What are you asking me for? And how can I create something that is a loving ecosystem for like all the different parts of me, which is just so much slower and requires so much more intention than doing what I was doing before which is just like reading Acting out of like whatever trauma or like also reacting in like distrust of myself, which was also this like gut assumption that would just like always take me in one direction. So just being allowed to stay in conversation with myself and move from the assumption that there's like something here that I get to here was very just a big game changer for me

  KC Davis 15:24

  it reminds me of, you know, I talk a lot about like self care and caring for yourself in the moment, and people started to ask like, well, but if I care for myself, right now, I'm gonna fuck myself over later, right? Like caring for myself now is not doing my dishes, but then I don't have dishes. And it reminds me of this concept of, I had to learn to see like the three versions of myself like past me, present me and future me, and to learn how to dance with all three of them, and try to take care of all three of them. Right? Yes, sometimes I want something pleasurable in this moment. But I also want to take care of future me. Yeah. And so like, I try to shepherd my present self, like in a loving direction towards the kinds of pleasure that don't harm future me. Right. And also, though, recognizing that sometimes I want to react from my past self and all those traumas and all those hurts and, and like what would feel good in that moment to that little girl? And recognizing that, like, sometimes she gets to do that? Yeah, like, it's not inherently bad to react out of that space, as long as I'm not hurting other people. And I'm still taking care of present me and future me. And that's reminds me of that same concept, right? Where it's like, but you're doing it lovingly. And I think that what happened to me and I think what happens to a lot of people on a self improvement journey, whether it's religion, or sobriety, or mental health, or wellness or therapy journey, like I got to this place where my worthiness and my ability to feel as though I was worthy of love was contingent on doing good. And I don't mean doing good acts. I mean, like making therapeutic progress. Yeah, I had this binary, where it's like, I'm either doing good, or I'm doing bad. Yeah. And if I was in a really bad place, it was like, Well, I'm doing bad right now. Like, I'm not making good choices. I'm feeling really distressing feelings, like I'm not feeling at peace. And then if I was doing the things I was supposed to write, if I was meditating every morning, and I was going to help people once a week, and I was always being honest, and I was never being selfish. And I was always being humble, like, then I was doing good. And the whole journey of self improvement was just hijacked by this belief that I was going to self improve into a state of being worthy of being loved. And for that reason, I for seven years, I meditated every single morning. And when I stopped doing that, I experienced so much more real growth. Yeah. And so like, I feel like in some ways, I'm like living in the upside down when it comes to my own healing.

  Frankie Simmons 18:22

  Yeah, no, I feel exactly the same way. Like, I looked back at the version of myself that made her bed every single morning and worked out all the time. And like had, you know, did like all the routines and everything. And I was like, That person was so scared. And like, so unhealthy, like the version of myself that seemed to have it the most together was actually running so far away from herself. And I think, yeah, for me, like just allowing myself to watch like, the bachelor religiously, and just being like, Yes, this is like a toxic cesspool of a show. And that's okay. Like, I'm allowed to not and always take the high road and every single choice that I ever make constantly,

  KC Davis 18:59

  Yes, I can just fucking rest. Not every single move every single thought every single like, yeah, that just really hit me because that is so true. And it's hard, I think, to talk in like public arena about that journey. Because like, there are people and and that was me, at one point, it is important to look at like, what kind of entertainment and what like, does it have effect on my mind? And is that helping me? Is that functional for me? Or, you know, am I dressing from a place of freedom and pleasure? Or am I dressing from a place of fear and insecurity? Like, I'm not saying that there's not value to those things? Because I think sometimes when I talk about these things in my journey, it almost sounds like I'm telling people like, do whatever, yeah, fine. Like don't try to figure out your motives on anything. And I'm not saying that, obviously. But I am saying that like, when you come from that place where you just like, feel like you aren't even worthy. You just can't be Be okay with not being okay.

  Frankie Simmons 20:02

  Not treating yourself like a project that has to move forward every single day or else why are you even here like having inherent worth to your existence that is just worth, like experiencing and enjoy, even if it's not going anywhere is like for me, it was just like such a mind blowing shift in how I approached my life at all. Because, yeah, there was just this constant journeying to an end point that needed to always be happening, or else, there was no point for me to be here and being able to settle into like, actually, I deserve to be here like point blank, like, I could not do anything for the rest of my life. And I still would like have inherent value that just like flipped my world on its head,

  KC Davis 20:38

  Not feeling like everything you did was either like moving up the mountain, or like slipping back.

  Frankie Simmons 20:43

  Yeah,

  KC Davis 20:43

  You know, like, there was this linear space that you always existed in and you're either moving forward and doing good, or you were like slipping back into your old ways.

  Frankie Simmons 20:53

  On the good place where like they every single action or thought you ever taken has like a either a red or a green number next to it. That was like my whole life.

  KC Davis 21:02

  Totally. And, you know, you mentioned like, doing the things that you're supposed to make you feel good versus do make you feel good. And I feel like there was this place of it feels good to do all of those things. Because it feels good to be a person that I know would be accepted by the community and the culture that I've chosen. Yeah. Like, there is pleasure in that. Yeah. But that's really different than guy call that like third person pleasure, which is like I'm outside of my so I'm enjoying watching myself, right? Yeah. Like I'm outside of myself and looking at myself and going like, Yes, I approve. Yeah, but here's the thing that is no different than how I was operating when I was using drugs. I just had a different place. Like when I was using idolized, like every tragic drug addict character, right, like Kurt Cobain, and, and really Bradley Knoll, and all these people and and they were miserable. And they did not meet good ends. But I wanted to be them. Because when I looked at them, I felt like people thought they were cool. And they were worthy. And they were deep, but they were artistic. And there was just something so inherently beautiful about them. And so interesting about them. And so like I did everything that I could, because I didn't feel worthy enough to be good. I thought I'll just work really hard to be worthy enough at being bad and tragic. And I think that there was this part of me that believed that I wasn't worthy of love, and I wasn't going to get love. But being saved could feel close enough. That if I could be tragic enough, if I could be broken enough that somebody would want to save me, and that would feel close enough to love that I would feel like I could breathe. And so everything was this third person pleasure where it's like, okay, I'm on the outside looking and going, okay, that thing I did, that's cool enough, that thing I did, that's beautiful enough, that thing I did that, you know, and I was very much sort of like a hippie when I was using like, I was definitely like selfish and arrogant and immature. But I still was very much like, let's all love each other, like, you know, let's go to a field and spin around barefoot. Like, I was still very much like yearning for this connection to something bigger and greater and beautiful. And so I just but it was that same thing. And I think recognizing that here. I was like, seven years sober. And I was still just as preoccupied with myself as I was when I was using drugs. Yeah, I was still just as preoccupied with this, like third person, reflection of myself and being good enough for the culture that I chose. It was the exact same thing. It was just a different culture, a different set of rules, a different set of people, a different community, trying to be good enough for that community so that I could feel okay. But when I started kind of the journey that you and I are talking about was the first time like when I let go of that perfectionism of like, it's okay to not always try and self improve. For the first time in my life. I didn't think about myself so much. And then I knew what real freedom was. For the first time in my life, I was experiencing my life in the first person. You know what I mean? Where you could like, look at birds and be like, that makes me really happy. Yeah. And you could do small simple things and be like, that makes me happy and listen to any music that actually makes you happy no matter how like stupid that music is.

  Frankie Simmons 24:36

  Yeah.

  KC Davis 24:37

  And it doesn't have to be rated on a scale of righteousness or a scale of healthiness or a scale of whatever. But yeah, I just think that it's hard to put that into words.

  Frankie Simmons 24:50

  Totally. What did that shift like? Feel like to the first person pleasure if you can think of like the first time that you experienced that like was there any like tan double shift or

  KC Davis 25:01

  I think it was slow. Like, when I was dating my husband, he very much had a huge influence on that shift for me because like, he is someone who, you know, when we met, like, I was very, like devout, and he was just as devout. But without all of the perfectionism, because what had happened was that I had gone through that really intense rehab. And then I went to church. And like, I got the whole package of like, all of the rules and regulations that went along with this like book of the Bible. Whereas my husband, he read everything in the house until there was nothing left to read. And then he read the Bible. And he describes his experience as literally reading the Bible and going Fuck, I believe this, like no control over the act of faith in that moment. Yeah. But because that was his first like, he did not grow up that way. So then if he reads that he connects with it, then he walks into church and goes, What the hell is this? Like nothing about what he was seeing matched what he was reading? You know what I mean? So he never had that, like, oh, I need to analyze every thought, Yeah, he definitely grew up and became mature and takes accountability and cares about people and, and like, is a wonderful WW, I think, really healthy person. But I think primarily, like, exists in that like, first person, space. And so I think it was slow. Because what so anyways, the point is, when I met him, I was still in that space. And so I was constantly going through this, like, do I like him too much? Yeah, because I'm not supposed to like him too much, because then I'll get attached. And I won't be able to see clearly whether it's right, whether it's the one that God has for me, or whether it's healthy enough, because like, I had just really been taught to believe that my base desires were dangerous. Yeah, because they were going to cloud, either my own judgment or what was healthy or the will of God, like you could put any of those things in that fill in the blank, right? And so like, I was wracked with conflict the whole time, because I really loved him. And I really wanted to be with him. And I was afraid that I loved him too much. And I wasn't allowed to love someone too much. And that if I loved him too much, he would be taken away, or that like, I would do something wrong. Yeah. So that it was sucked. And then we got married, and I kind of calmed down slightly. Okay. Nobody can take him away now. And I think it was just like this slow movement for me. And people ask me all the time, how did I come to a place where I talk about like care tasks being morally neutral? And the truth is, is like it was this? Like, it had nothing to do with actual care tasks. It was just this journey to a place of like, all of these things that I had moralized Yeah. And then being like, well, maybe it doesn't actually matter. Like, what if things just like didn't matter that much? Yeah. So yeah, I think it was just like, such a slow movement. And, and like, I also haven't been to church in a really long time. And I think that's been really helpful. Yeah, for not like getting into that space. And I'll occasionally go and experience it as, like a beautiful moment. But it's been really helpful to like, step away and just exist. And to to approach it from that perspective. Yeah. So you are in a relationship right now? And is that relationship like how is that fitting into sort of like your journey of like, non pressure healing and growth?

  Frankie Simmons 28:34

  Yeah, I think I thought of it when you were describing how like your husband like just watching the way that he related to, like, his spirituality and stuff was like shifted things for you. Similarly, in my fiance is like, very grew up secular doesn't have any of like that programming. And I distinctly remember one time where like, we were on a camping trip with their family. And we were like, reaching the evening, and Ian just like, pulled out this little like Bluetooth speaker and turn it on to a song that they liked, and put it next to them and just like sat down in a chair and just was like, This is what I'm doing right now. I'm sitting in this chair, and I'm listening to music and me being like, that's just nothing I would ever allow myself to do. I remember when the pandemic started and their job, like furloughed them, and they were like, Okay, I'm gonna go home, and I'm going to watch Star Wars for the next month, like, I'm going to watch every Star Wars thing that has ever existed. And I would sit in the living room and watch Star Wars all day, and I would be in the bedroom being like, maybe I need to break up with this person, because why are they not focused on caring for themselves and learning new things? And like, you know, maybe we have fundamental differences. And then two weeks later, being like, actually, they're having fun, and I'm not so like, who's actually winning in this situation? And so it's been very interesting to watch them just like approach their life with so much more like moral neutrality. And so they are somebody who just gives themselves permission to really be where they're at and very rarely do they question like, even stuff about our relationship that like we have I have a very unique style of like, how we run our home and how we handle our finances and all of that stuff. And I'm constantly like, there's a part of my brain that's constantly in the like, what if we're doing this wrong? And like, what if the fact that this looks different than other people's relationships means we're actually in a terrible relationship, and we just don't realize it yet. And Ian's, like, No, this is just working for us. Like there's nothing in them that questions things that they enjoy. And that's been very wild to live around for, like the past four years. And I think so much of my healing has come down to just them, I would get up at 10am. And they'd be like, I'm so proud of you for getting up at 10am. And that was just like, wildly healing for me to just have somebody that was like, you're enjoying yourself. And that's fine and could like, get in the middle of those thoughts, spirals, and just make space for me to like, exist. So.

  KC Davis 30:53

  I think also, for me, the like you mentioned being tender hearted. And I think that this like season for me, and however long I've been in it is very much marked by the idea of being tender to myself, and not from like a pity. Place of like, you know what, you screwed up, you failed, but that's okay. But from a place of like, I get to give myself tenderness for the sole reason that tenderness is lovely to experience. Yeah, not because I deserve it, not because it's good for me not because it's healthy, not because it's going to encourage me to be better or anything. Just that, like you can truly just decide,

  Frankie Simmons 31:40

  Yeah, like just I'm going to be on my own side. Because I deserve to have somebody on my side all the time, which I think it's interesting how like, for myself, I've noticed that when I get to that space of like, I don't actually have to be moving towards anything, I don't actually have to be like, I just get to be accepting of myself. Because that is an experience that is good for me to have, how much healing that actually creates, like how it actually moves me a lot of times towards the things that I was trying so hard to get towards. It's always interesting whenever I make tic TOCs, I have this series where I'm just just like, list off a bunch of things and be like, Oh, that makes sense. Like, it makes sense that you're feeling this way or whatever. And like that's the whole thing is just like saying, this makes sense that you're in this space. And every single time there are people in the comments being like, Okay, so now what, like, okay, I get it makes sense. But now what do I do? And every time I'm like, if that's the question that you're asking, then you have not yet given yourself space, you don't actually get that it makes sense if you're because when we are in full acceptance of something, we're usually not like, offended by its presence. Like when we actually are in complete understanding that something makes sense. We're usually not like in complete urgency to get it to stop existing. And so being able to be in a space of like, just allowing myself to stay with that. I think we really underestimate the healing power of just like validation, and just being an acceptance of ourselves. And like what just that can do all by itself.

  KC Davis 32:55

  It reminds me a little bit of like, those horribly awful like church things, the way people would say, like, God won't give you a relationship until you're okay, on your own and you want a relationship. And so you would find, I don't know about you, but like, I would find myself being like, how do I make myself not want a relationship so that I'll get the relationship I want? Yeah, right. Or, like, how do I get myself to not feel this one way in order to control this other thing that I want? Yeah. And just like the freedom of realizing that like, either there is a God, and he just gives things to people because, or there's not a god, and you can just have things because, like, there really isn't like a bait and switch. Yeah, of like, you have to make yourself happy on your own. Yeah, before you can be in a relationship. Let me tell you like, I was created for companionship, like, I never felt 100% Okay. Yeah. When I was alone, and that wasn't like a fault. Yeah, that wasn't like, oh, you you know have to have others validation or like, you're not healthy enough on your own or complete enough on your own? Like, could I live a happy and fulfilling life? If I didn't have a partner or family? Like, yeah, I could. But that would never not be something that my soul crave. Yeah. And even that, in and of itself was like, such a huge place of being like, oh, there's nothing like immature about me. Or like, I'm not unhealthy. I don't know. Like, there's nothing like unenlightened about. Yeah, like there's some plane of existence. I could be at where I stopped being like a social creature. And I mean, not everybody necessarily wants a monogamous relationship or children or to live with someone but like, we all need the kind of connection that like we need. Yeah. And it's just so It's such a stupid myth that you don't deserve those connections unless you can get to a place where you don't want those connections. Yeah. Or need those connections.

  Frankie Simmons 35:09

  Yeah. And that I think there's a lot of ways where, like, you know, I think it's interesting that the word like needy is used as an insult when it's like I'm a living being, which means that I just like have needs and like, I'm a human, which means I also have emotional needs as well as physical needs. Like that's just a fact of my existence. But the fact that we are so often punished and being like, told that you're supposed to heal out of like, having needs is just creates a lot of chaos.

  KC Davis 35:35

  Do you have anything that you want to talk about?

  Frankie Simmons 35:37

  One thing that I really appreciate about your content is, I don't think you talk about it as much anymore. But to my understanding, you're still a Christian. Yes. And I really appreciate that. Because I think I would no longer identify as a Christian, but I also love faith and love spirituality. And I feel like every time I talk about, it's kind of similar, when I talk about being a Texan online, I have to like, prepare myself to defend Texas, against all these other people. And there's a similar thing, like whenever I talk about, like, my religious deconstruction, I have to prepare for like all these people that are going to come into the comments and be like, yeah, all religion is terrible and evil and needs to go away. I'm just curious, like how that felt to you to like, go through this journey, and come into like, an authentic definition of your own faith.

  KC Davis 36:22

  Yeah, I think that it helps that I didn't grow up in church. So like, I very much I was anti religion for a long time. And so I understand, like, where that comes from. And I think it's valid. And you know, at the end of the day, my experience with my faith was an experience that can't be challenged. Like theology can be challenged, and like, what you believe about the way the world works can be challenged, and what's right and wrong can be challenged, and dogma can be challenged, and tradition can be challenged. And like I very much am someone who like went through a deconstruction process, but retained my faith almost exclusively, like everything else kind of fell out. But because what remained was like being 16, and broken and sitting on a bench staring at a cow pasture, begging for there to be something in the world, more than me, that could be personal, like not just like spirit of the universe, because like I needed something a little more than that. Yeah. And there's this feeling as if there was like this presence that would come and sit next to me and be quiet. Like that was what really took me back was like, I'd always sort of seen this idea of God as like someone who would have a lot to say to you, yeah, about what you do, right, and what you do wrong, and all the things you need to know. And to have this experience, like in my worst moments, where it just felt like there was this presence that sat next to me and looked at the same place as me was so real. And it happened really slowly over time. And I don't think that there's just anything that could ever be done or said that would change the fact that that happened to me. Yeah, you know what I mean? And there are some aspects of Christian doctrine that I think just resonate with me deeply from my own experience. Like, I don't think that I'm inherently bad. But I certainly identify with being like, inherently imperfect, and for a long time, even, like, inherently broken and inherently find certain things about life difficult. And I find a lot of comfort in a theology that basically says, like, there's a God, that's not surprised by that. Yeah, who wasn't expecting anything different? Yeah. That the only person surprised by your own sort of mistakes, or fumbles or downfalls or whatever is you like, you know, and so, yeah, I think that because so much of that was just like, deeply personal, that theology around that can change and dogma around that can change and all that kind of stuff. And it just doesn't bother me, because that'll always have been my experience. I also think that the trauma that people have experienced at the hands of religion is really real. Yeah. And I think the other part of it, though, is like because my experience was this like, very personal, real visceral, like experiential thing. And because I do like, believe there is a God, I don't have this fear that I feel like a lot of religious people seem to have where it's like, the world is spinning out and we need to correct it. I don't know. I just don't really think God needs our help. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, what are we worried about? If like, we think that There's like a loving creator of the world that loves us and is going to take care of us in ways that we don't understand, either now or later, or whatever. So I don't know, I think it's all valid. I think that there was a time when I felt all those same things. And I feel like my encounter with God was him being like, it's okay to feel those things. So like, who am I to have any thought differently about somebody else's feelings about those than how I thought God felt about it with me? You know what I mean? Like, I don't know,

  Frankie Simmons 40:30

  No, love all of that. And I think it is, like, definitely so valid for people to have like, their experiences and their hurt and to like, have really complicated feelings about religion as a whole. Because of that, I think there's a space where like, I know, I felt in myself, there's a different, it's again, going back to the way that that fundamentalism, like rewires your brain to view things that way, even when you step out of that specific religious practice. And I think there's a way where sometimes I hear people talk about like, when humanity ascends. And if everybody was like, as smart and intelligent as we could be, like, everybody would believe the way that I believe, which is that there is nothing and we would have no organized religion. To me, it feels very similar in some ways to the like, evangelical way of like, viewing the world where like, I need to convince everybody else to get on board with my version of things. And I think giving people space to like, have their own experiences, whatever those are, until, like, be with what is like really true for them. And know that it doesn't have to be like in contradiction or in conflict with like, what your experience and your truth is, is just a really beautiful place to land.

  KC Davis 41:35

  Yeah, I think that when you have like, when everything is kind of like a house of cards, almost, you know what I mean? Where it's like, it wasn't really based on like an experience, it wasn't based on a searching, you know what I mean? Like, there was no process of like, I searched for something, and I found something. And that thing was valuable to me. And then from there, I sort of began to learn some theology and walk through that. And then, you know, deconstructed from a lot of that theology. And ironically enough, like going to seminary was probably the biggest part of that deconstruction was learning like, oh, the majority of people talking about what the Bible says or don't know what they're talking about. So I think that I could definitely see how, you know, if I had that experience, that if the uniquely in that way, feeling a lot of fear about somebody challenging some part of my belief, because it would feel as though like that one little piece of like, thread that you pulled on it too hard, might like, unravel the whole tapestry. And I think that I just kind of came to a place where I was, like, I'm gonna pull on the thread. Because if it's real, like, whatever I come out on the other end with will be sufficient, I guess, like, I don't even know if like real is the right word, because I think that somebody who pulled the tapestry and came out in a different place than me, like, maybe not being a person of faith anymore. Like, I don't want to say that that was not real for them. But I think that, like, whatever you have, and whatever you need, like, you're gonna still have it at the end. Like, I just think that not having fear, when you pull that tapestry, because like, either there is something that is real there for you. And there's no amount of pulling on the doubts and the questions that's gonna make that real thing disappear. Or there is something real out there that you have yet to encounter, whether that is some sort of faith, or that is just sort of like your experience with your own truth and life and something that makes your life worth living like, and better to pull all those strings so that whatever this sort of facade that was there can kind of go away, and you can move forward and find what resonates deeply with your soul. Because I think it's at the end of like all of it. I have seen people from different faiths than me and from no faith in a place where something deeply good and deeply sacred and deeply real, was speaking to their soul in a way that they could tell that that same thing has spoken to the souls of other people, for 1000s and 1000s of years, like says something very viscerally real. And I've never seen that and then thought, like, well, but that's not real. Like, I've always just thought, like, I recognize that that's what I feel, too. And that's enough for me, you know what I mean? Like, I don't really know what beyond that matters. Like I could certainly be wrong about a whole lot after that. Yeah, I just I've never seen someone of another faith, have a deeply religious experience and not felt like they were like tapping into the same source that I was, yeah. And so whether one of us is right, or one of us is wrong, or we're both right, or we're both wrong, or both, whatever. It just sort of seemed like who am I to say? Yeah, this has been so lovely. Yeah. And we you tell everybody like where they can find you and follow you and hear more deep thoughts.

  Frankie Simmons 44:58

  Yeah, so I am on tick tock at Hey Frankie Simmons and Instagram at Frankie Doodle Dandy. And I have a digital newsletter called letters from home that you can sign up for there. And it's a fun time.

  KC Davis 45:12

  Thank you so much for coming down here and taking a little road trip to sit and stare into my backyard and talk about life.

  Frankie Simmons 45:20

  Yeah, thank you for having me. It's been a joy.

  KC Davis 45:22

  Awesome as a reminder because I never ever do this. I do have a website called struggle. care.com I do have a book called How to keep house while drowning and if you don't follow me on Tik Tok or Instagram, you should do that. Domestic blisters on Tik Tok and struggle care on Instagram. And I guess if your grandma wants to follow me on Facebook, I'm struggling here on Facebook. So thank you guys. Take care of yourselves.

Our topic today is intriguing, so I can’t wait to learn more from my guest. I’m joined by River Nice (they/them), who was originally in a tech job they hated. After using their skill set to help their partner with debt from her gender transition, River found their calling: to help queer people with their money. Now, they run their own financial planning firm, Be Intentional Financial LLC (BIF), to serve their clients and community and help to dismantle oppression in all its forms. Join us to learn more!

Show Highlights:

• Misconceptions people have about the term “anti-capitalist financial planner”

• A look at the harmful and inaccurate mainstream financial advice in our world

• Why we live in fear and worry about our financial survival in a capitalist society

• A look at white privilege and how we can make the world a better place under oppressive systems

• What “redistribution of wealth” looks like, practically speaking

• How River helps clients with investing for long-term financial security

• A charity giving model vs. creating an interdependent community

• How River teaches financial emergency preparedness to clients

• How anti-capitalist financial planning is a holistic view of life, money, values, and relationships

• River’s advice about specific financial scenarios around debt management, living paycheck to paycheck, planning for the future, and accumulating wealth

Resources and Links:

Connect with River Nice: Website, Instagram, and TikTok

Check out River’s Website for FREE resources and a FREE 30-minute consultation!

Also mentioned: the Mint app and the Honeydue app for couples

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello you sentient balls of stardust, this is Struggle Care with your host, KC Davis, that's me, therapist, author of the book How to Keep House While Drowning. And this is the podcast where we talk about all sorts of things, mental health, self care, even though the word self care makes me want to vomit. And I have a really great guest today. So I want to introduce river to y'all, they are an anti capitalist financial planner. And when I heard that I was so fascinated. So River, will you just sort of introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about how you got to be an anti capitalist financial planner?

  River Nice 0:38

  Sure, and thanks for having me. So my name is ruber. Nice. My pronouns are they them, the I guess, if I tried to make it a short version of the story. I was working in tech and hated my job. But I know I'm a numbers guy, and I was actually a project manager, and Trump got elected. And I was like, I do not care about the work that I'm doing, there has to be a way that I can do work that uses my skill set and is more useful to especially the queer community. And my partner at that time had a lot of credit card debt from her gender transition. And anytime she tried to find help for it, you know, no financial adviser was going to help a broke trans woman with credit card debt. And the whole internet was like, well stop buying coffee. And she was like, that doesn't help. So I sat with her, and kind of intuitively and kind of with my project management skills just built out like a budget and a timeline and was like, here's what you need to do, here's what it's going to be over. And it was her idea. She was like, this is your calling, you have to help queer people with money.

  KC Davis 1:33

  I love that you mentioned the like, just never buy coffee again, because I had some questions for you. But then we may go out of order, because I have to tell you, like I came from the church world, which is like ruled by Dave Ramsey. And if you're listening in your home, Dave Ramsey is he's like this evangelical budget guy. And he is taken for like wide swaths of really like white America, I would say, as like, oh, the best way to like money manage, and I never like utilized him for anything. But it wasn't until I started kind of deconstructing that I started hearing, like financial planners and CPAs and people that were talking about, like how problematic Dave Ramsey was. And I feel like that is just so the hoarder, like, just if you could just stop eating avocado toast, you could afford a house. So let me ask you this. When I first heard the term, anti capitalist financial planner, my first thought was like, That seems like an oxymoron. And I'm sure I'm not the only one like, what would you say are some of the misconceptions people have when they hear the term anti capitalist financial planner?

  River Nice 2:43

  Yeah, and it's a tricky term, right? It is kind of an oxymoron, it is a very tricky spot to inhabit myself. But it is my shorthand to try to help the people who need me find me. So as far as misconceptions, you know, the capitalists all think that I'm either naive or like a liar. And then, you know, the leftist find me. And some misconceptions are that like, you know, I am trying to operate entirely outside of capitalism, which is not how I actually operate, or that I'm going to tell people that what they're doing is evil or immoral, which is not how I operate. So what I am actually trying to do is say, hey, capitalism is oppression, we agree on that. And I want to help you kind of intentionally live the best life that you can, according to your values, under late stage, patriarchal white supremacist capitalism, and we can get more into that with your questions. But does that help give a sense?

  KC Davis 3:41

  No, it really helps a lot. Because I think that, especially if you've been really exposed to like the shame based financial planning stuff, the don't drink coffee, if you just saved if you were just more responsible, I think a lot of times, I expect that I'm going to encounter that again, right? So I'm going to encounter, you want to get on a plane and go on a vacation when there are people starving, you are so selfish, right? And so there's, I feel like there's this fear of like, Oh, am I going to be told, I can't save up for a house? Or am I going to do what I can't save up for a bigger house? Or am I going to be told that I need to give everything away? Or am I gonna be told? And I think that's a really, first of all, I think that's just interesting information for me that like, that's the fear that comes up. But I also think it's interesting that like, the financial world, unless you're already wealthy is so sewn with, like fear mongering and shame. That's almost like, I didn't even realize that that's what I would expect with like, what's going to be the same shame just with a different, like political ideology. And so I think that's a really helpful clarification, actually. So we kind of touched on this when I wanted to talk about like some of the harmful and inaccurate mainstream financial messages out there, because I think a lot of us have internalized those. And I think a lot of people listening may not even recognize that like, Oh, that's not the only way to survive, or that's not the only way to get out of debt or that's not the only way to like have a life worth living. So I'm curious what other ones you can share with us besides the like stop drinking coffees.

  River Nice 5:10

  I mean, something that I like to say to everyone is that, like, we live in a world where money is necessary for every aspect of survival. Like if you need money for shelter, food, water, health care, and also connection to other humans, and the ability to connect with other humans, like, of course, we're all going to be in fight or flight or freeze or fawn mode about money, like all the time. Because, you know, like, when we break down, like, what are our physiological most basic needs, and then money is necessary for most of them most of the time, like, of course, that's going to mess us up. Of course, we're all going to have a lot of baggage around money. So I like to say that I also find it important to point out like, you were kind of saying, like, there's so much we cannot control about global patriarchal white supremacist capitalism. So I want to help people focus on what they actually can control within themselves, instead of trying to think, well, if I can't fix the world, then it's not worth trying, or I'm not allowed to enjoy a vacation, if there are people who are still suffering, do that black and white thinking, exactly the black and white thinking. So it's not like, I'm not saying totally let go of the things that you can't personally control. But like, notice how much power you actually have in the world and how you're using it intentionally. Instead of feeling like that kind of just American individualism exceptionalism popping up again, of thinking, well, if I just did this, then the world wouldn't be so bad. Or maybe I suffered more other people would suffer less.

  KC Davis 6:38

  Ooh, if I suffered more than maybe other people would suffer less, that is a really powerful sentence. Because I think that there's obviously some truth to this idea of, you know, I want to make my table bigger, or like, I want to share what I have, or I want to bring others up with me, or I want to, I want to lean into creating and being a part of an interdependent community. Like, I don't want to hoard, you know, stuff while people. But I feel like those things are all really admirable. And yet, when I talk to people about it, it seems like what most of us have interpreted from that is, maybe if I suffer, other people won't have to suffer, even if the suffering doesn't actually create any material. I see that with environmentalism a lot, where it's like, if I throw this one thing away, and it's like, I mean, yeah, it'd be great if we could all you know, live out of a mason jar of trash every year, but like life is life. And it's that sort of black and white thinking, which I find really interesting, especially with my platform of talking about moral neutrality. And some of these issues, obviously have some moral implications. But I just am so blown away, every time I realize how much of our headspace as like humans in this society is filled with, if I don't make these right decisions, I'm a bad person. And if I'm a bad person, I don't deserve to be loved. And I think that's what sort of gets us to that I have to suffer if other people are suffering. So that's really, really fascinating. Do you have any others on the list? I think about, I don't know, the amount of times that a thought flies out of my brain on this podcast is impressive. So it's fine. And if you want us to cut anything out, you don't have to take a minute, we'll do that, too. Oh, and I had a question too. And I'm trying to like, crawl it back into my brain. Oh, I think I was just gonna relate like when you said, every need, we have, like these deeply human needs, like we live in a society where we have to pay for all of it. That like almost brought me to tears. This is already I'm going like we're nine minutes in. And this has been like an oddly emotional topic for me, because I genuinely like even though we are financially stable, in many ways, financially privileged, that fear has not gone away. That fear of what if tomorrow, my husband dies, and we don't have his income? What if tomorrow, one of my kids gets cancer, and we have to be able to afford all of this? What if tomorrow, you know, a war starts in the US, and all of a sudden, we don't have access to these things? Right? Like, I think a lot of the times, when we look at that frantic, like, I don't want to I want to hoard wealth, or I want to just hustle and grind. I think we can talk about the aspect of that that is fueled by greed. And that's real, right. And we can talk about the aspect of that that's fueled by white supremacy, and all those things. But I wonder if there isn't also just a real human element of like, it's terrifying. To love people and to think about your ability to keep them safe and healthy, is dependent on having the money to do that, and how hard it must be to have that fear. And also hear people will be like, just relax it. It's like it feels so I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, but that just really touched me.

  River Nice 9:57

  Yeah, absolutely. And like who said benefits by us being so scared. And so on the edge of survival all the time, you know, like, capitalism in the big picture is like the 1% of actual, like owners exploiting the rest of us. And we are better laborers if our survival is threatened by us not having the money that we are laboring for, to pay for the survival things. So like the system is working as designed. And of course, it's making us all have really intense feelings about it all the time. Like, I'm not surprised that you're on the verge of tears, nine minutes in talking about this, I have people crying in meetings with me all the time. Like, it's our literal survival we're talking about and then the financial services industry wants to paint it as this like cold spreadsheets, there's no emotions, here. It's just money. It's just hard data. But like, when the hard data reflects whether or not we're going to be okay, in old age, our kids are going to be okay, our parents are going to be okay. Like, our trans community is going to survive, like, of course, we're all a mess about it. And there has to be space for that, if you're going to be able to do anything intentionally with it. Yeah,

  KC Davis 11:07

  I want to pause there just for a second, we'll take a short break, and we'll come right back. So sometimes, when I and this could be like your personal opinion, your professional opinion, just thoughts in general, I watch a lot of content where people talk about like, sort of like the evils of hustle and grind. I won't even say culture, but it's like, as a prescriptive. Like, that's it equals your moral fortitude, like get up hustle and grind. And I watch a lot of content about like talking about like slow living, and it's okay to not like, live for the weekend, like it's okay to rest and enjoy your life. And to not have to feel as though you have to be producing, producing, producing, producing. And one of the things that so I find that content really fascinating when it comes to financial planning in the financial world, because I hear a lot of people say, I don't know how I'm supposed to interpret this message when I'm living like paycheck to paycheck. Like I'm not like hustling grinding, because that's my worth. I'm doing it because like, I have to pay my water bill. So how am I supposed to incorporate these, you know, what are anti capitalist ideas about my humanity, when I'm paycheck to paycheck, and then I have almost like the opposite end of the spectrum response, where I watch that content, and I go, Yeah, I want that. I want that I want to wake up and, you know, talk for hours with my spouse on in the garden, I want to be there for every one of my kids like soccer games and not have to like necessarily go into work, I want to work a job where I can work a couple or a few hours a day, and then be able to do these other meaningful pursuits. But one of the things that confronts me when I have those thoughts when engaging that content as a cisgendered, white, upper middle class female is, but to do that is just my privilege. That's just me living a privileged life. And I don't know if this goes back to the life but if I suffer, other people suffer also. And I sometimes don't know how to someone who is financially privileged and is just privileged, in other respects, engage or incorporate those type of anti capitalist ideas about maybe slow living, or, you know, having a more holistic focus on life because you don't have to hustle and grind. Because there's this like, achy part of me that's like, oh, I mean, I could just retire and be like, a kept housewife. But like, that doesn't feel very anticapitalist of me. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts about that. And I'm sorry, this is basically turning into a therapy session where I'm just asking you to talk about my financial emotional issues.

  River Nice 13:44

  No, that's really interesting. And I'm glad you brought it up. I don't think you're the only person asking that question and thinking about it. And I guess what I am thinking through as you're talking is, like, I guess what I would be thinking through if I was to try to advise you on this, I would be thinking through like, the privileges that you have, or that I have, and like what I am doing to make the world better, while also making my life as good as it can be under all the oppressive systems. So like, I also am like white and upper middle class, I am Trans and Queer that I'm neurotypical, able bodied, thin, you know, like the axes of oppression that affect me are pretty few and it's mostly just being trans and queer. So I see my place is like building the life that I want, because I am part of the queer and trans communities and it is important to me that we get the chance to build the lives that we want, and seeing how I can redistribute the resources that I have available to me, relative to my levels of privilege and access to resources. So for me, it is fairly easy to make money because I am white and neurotypical. So I feel a sense of obligation to make that money and redistribute some of it to black and indigenous group. People specifically, I also have the ability to, you know, be self employed and set up my work day work week year in the way that best works for me. But I don't want to end up working unrealistic amounts or an unrealistic schedule that I burn out. And I'm not useful. I'm trying to play the long game. I'm trying to play my whole life, how do I live my whole life in accordance with my values. So if I'm trying to set myself up to work as much as possible, and make as much money as possible to redistribute as much as possible, that might not be able to work for the next 60 years. And I want it to work for the next 60 years. So for me, it's setting up the business and the life where I am helping people that I feel like my skill set is most useful in helping you know, I'm not necessarily able to help every single person with their financial planning, I can help a type of person and a type of situation most effectively. And then how do I make my time and energy efficient to that end, while still making enough money to redistribute while still being able to have kids and spend time with my kids? Does that help? And like how I would be thinking through this? Yeah.

  KC Davis 16:06

  And I also think that, you know, when we talk about redistribution of wealth, can you talk a little bit more about like, what does that practically look like when you're talking with clients? Because I think there are probably a lot of people listening that already have maybe some preconceived notions about what that means. Maybe some people even feel this fear, because they relate, you know, just redistribution of wealth with some type of political movement or governmental movement, or, you know, maybe they're thinking, Oh, this woke stuff. And then I think there's a lot of people that say that, hear it and like it and think, yes, I want to be a part of that. But I gotta be honest, I don't know that I really understand the intricacies of what that looks like, outside of like giving money to a charity giving money to a person. And is that what it means? Or are there other more strategic ways that people can go about? Or they start thinking about that?

  River Nice 17:00

  Yeah, totally big questions, but I love them. I want to first point out that, like capitalism is not a pressing is all equally, right. So that means that where you are starting from and where you currently are, is going to inform what redistribution means to you. So for folks who are listening, who come from, like, generational wealth, I would point you to resource generation as a national movement with possibly a chapter local to you that can help you figure out your specific values, your personal practice, on how you approach this work, and then how much to give and where to give and how to give. Most of the clients that I work with come from working class or lower middle class backgrounds, but now have access to money for the first time. So they have the money, and they have no information about what to do with it. Right. So for those folks, we talk through what to do with the paycheck as it comes in. Right? We're not talking about inherited generational wealth, we're talking about a high paycheck when you are not used to experiencing high paycheck. In that high paycheck, we can list out the budget, you know, shelter cost, this much food cost this much healthcare costs this much. And then as we get to the more discretionary parts of the budget travel going out to eat entertainment, hobbies, we figure out a level of giving that reflects how important redistribution and reparations is relative to those other items. So sometimes I'll see like a 22 year old white queer person who has so much white guilt, they're giving away more per month than they are actually able to, like pay their own bills. And that's not a sustainable thing to continue to do that suffering is disproportional with the amount that you're helping. But if you are able to take a trip once or twice a year, maybe you can also redistribute the same amount as what you put towards that trip. If you are again, like you know, a white upper middle class person, you know, like these other factors of privilege have to come into the equation and thinking about what you're doing. But if you can give at a level that reflects how important economic justice and racial justice is to you compared to your takeout, your entertainment, your travel, etc, that can give you a guiding principle to start with.

  KC Davis 19:11

  Do you talk to people also about like, how they can invest that money or grow that money because like one thing that I I'm that person that's like out the gate, like, let's just give all of it, you know, away. And it really was my husband that was like, here's the thing like, yes, we want to give now. But if we also take a portion of this and invest, like there will be more money and more security down the road to give bigger amounts to offer ourselves a kind of stability that allows us to be more involved in things. And that was kind of a big eye opener for me because like I didn't know anything about like investing or I didn't know anything besides get a paycheck, pay your bills, maybe have a savings account. So I don't know if that was a question but thoughts

  River Nice 19:58

  Yeah, yeah. And this is something that I'm actively exploring and questioning for myself as well, right? Like, I don't think I'm like an expert, and I'm done. And now I never have to question these things. Again, my approach thus far has been that those of us who have the ability to have money in older age like to be investing for the long term and have access to money, when we can no longer work, in some ways have kind of a responsibility to have those resources available for the community at that time, like you said, and in another way of thinking, if we are continuing to follow along that idea of individual wealth growth in order to contribute to community as more of a like, giving to charity model instead of I am part of a community and we all share resources all the time model. It's a tricky spot. So currently, for me and my clients, and again, knowing that the majority of my clients are not coming from generational wealth. And now as money for the first time, we do talk about investing, and trying to choose investments that avoid fossil fuels that avoid private prisons. But invest to be able to have that security of safety as old people, especially as like, older trans people, you know, like, we can try to work on that while still giving part of the paycheck every month. Again, for folks who are coming from more generational wealth, I would point those hooks to resource generation because they're doing some really cool work about envisioning what retirement could look like as a community care practice instead of as an individual piles of money practice. And especially if you're coming from financial security that can be really cool to explore what it looks like to invest that money in, trying to create universal health care, so that we'll all be okay as old people instead of just a couple of us being okay, as old people.

  KC Davis 21:47

  Yeah, it's interesting when you talk about like the difference between a charity giving model and creating an interdependent community, because that's one thing that we've recognized for ourselves, which is like, it's weird. I mean, it's not weird, right? Like, there are some great organizations out there. But there is something about having exclusively a charitable giving model that distances you, I think that's both to the detriment of the people you're trying to help, and also to our own detriment, because it doesn't create interdependent community. And it keeps us in this position of I'm someone that has at all, and I give to the have nots, as opposed to, I also have needs, that I could be getting met through my community, these human needs, that I could be getting that through my community. And that was kind of a big aha moment that I had this last year, which is like, okay, and then once you start having that conversation, then it's not just like, What do I do with my paycheck? It's like, where do I live? And who do I live by? And where do my kids go to school? And it's not like, I think that there's one right answer for all those questions. But it's interesting how what you think is, like you said, just like this dry conversation about the numbers, all of a sudden is like, Wait, like, I don't want to be alone. I don't want to have to, you know, it's really isolating to be in a position, like you said, where every single support needs you have has to be paid for. And there's no interdependency where, yes, this person might pick up my kids for me, but I go over there and help them with, you know, XYZ. And that, to me, is more anti capitalist than this idea about, like how much money I do or don't have, right, like,

  River Nice 23:34

  Right, totally. And to come back to what you were talking about earlier about how scary it is, you know, what if my kid gets sick, what if my husband dies? What if? What if, what if, when I teach financial emergency preparedness, we talk about multiple ways to protect yourself, right. So there's having the emergency savings fund just like liquid cash available to pay an unexpected bill or whatever. We talk about insurance policies that you can get like life insurance, that if something happens to you, your family gets money to help them get through what they need next. But then there's also that social safety net, and you can invest in that in other ways, and in financial ways. So if you did have your third emergency in one year, if you did have a housing crisis, if you did have you did have like, who would you turn to? And are you nurturing those relationships? And like, I think sometimes, especially working with a lot of trans people, it's like, well, family of origin is not a place to turn back to and I get that. And what are the other nonprofits doing work to help us or doing work about some of these financial crises that people experience? What are the mutual aid groups what your neighbor is doing? And like, how can you make sure that you are a valued member of the community even if you don't have much money or time or energy to give How can you like show up and create social connection with other people and provide them the social connection that all of us need? So that eventually if you do have your like, tough emergency or third or fourth emergency, like there are people You can turn to

  KC Davis 25:01

  well, and one of the things that I think is interesting when we talk about being interdependent with people, and this is sometimes money, or sometimes other types of help or connection is that it feels so vulnerable to ask someone for help. But one of the things that I've learned is that, and there's been studies on this too, like, when somebody asks me for help, it makes me feel more comfortable asking them in turn, like human beings are actually very comfortable with this idea of like, it's not being in someone's debt, but it's like, there's something about, you know, man, I don't know, I don't have words today, but you get it, right. Like, there's a lot of, I think, sometimes we're so afraid to be the first person to ask for help. And in my experience, like I had a friend that she had a little girl that was the same age as one of my daughters. And we both lived in a city. We didn't know anybody we had done, like some playdates. And one of the things I find really difficult is like, how do I take people from this sort of like nice acquaintance to like, an intimate person that I'm doing life with as a support system. And there was a day where I had something really important that I had to get to, and my kids got sick. And she out of nowhere texted me. Oh, it was before this, actually. So that we had a natural disaster here in Houston. And there was no water, there was no electricity. My house was one of the only ones that had electricity. And so I invited her and her family to come stay with us for a few days. And it was like kind of a leap. Like, we didn't know each other super well. But I was like, yeah, come on, and do this. And then like, not a few weeks later, like my kids had gotten sick. And she texted me and was like, Do you want me to come over and watch them. And there was really it was that like, reciprocal nature of like, someone has to kind of make the first move to either ask for help or offer help, is awkward as it feels. And like, that was the thing that took us to the next level. And I kept waiting for the comfort and the familiarity and the intimacy to be there before I felt comfortable asking or offering help. And then I realized, Wait, asking and offering help, is what gets you to that point of like that new sort of depth of a relationship. And so I think that's really interesting.

  River Nice 27:07

  Yeah, I live in an apartment building that is five apartments. And a couple weeks ago, I just invited all my neighbors over, I just like, put out some chips and salsa, I baked some cookies. And I was just like, everybody come by between five and eight. I like made it very, like, need to understand this is what's happening. Here's a picture of the food, like, these are the times come knock on my door. And most of the other folks did come by and I was like, look like, let's just get to know each other a little bit. What is everybody do? What is everybody's schedule? Like? Can we all start a Text group chat, so that when a package gets delivered on the front stoop, and you're not home, someone else can bring it in before it gets stolen. And it's just, it's just a starting point. But I had realized, like, I moved into this apartment right before COVID, shut everything down. So I never actually met the other people in my building. And I was like, Hey, I would love to just like put faces and names together and like, start a group chat for logistical things in the building. But now if somebody's like, Oh, can you feed my cat, oh, my car broke down, or whatever. It's like, now you have a little group chat of people just in the building. And then if there is some kind of bigger crisis, we all have each other's contact info and a little bit of an understanding of what each other's lives are like, so we can try to help each other out like that. So I love that you like then moved from the acquaintance to the like actual mutual care, taking care of each other's families, as as possible. But like, yeah, it's getting started. That's tough.

  KC Davis 28:29

  And I think, you know, as we talk more, the idea of like, what does it mean to be an anti capitalist financial planner, it seems like, so much of it is about looking holistically at a person's life. And that money is just one part of it, and one expression of what their values are. And I think that, to me, seems like the biggest difference because most financial advisors that I've ever, like watched content about or seen personally, like, it is this very, like, myopic view of like, let's look at your money, and how can we make more of it? As opposed to how is money fitting into your life?

  River Nice 29:05

  Exactly. I think of money as a tool that we can use in different ways and debt to money and debt are tools that we can try to use within you know, the bounds of everything we're experiencing. So instead of how do I have the highest number possible at any cost? It's how do I use this tool to have the best life I can? And how do I use this tool in accordance with my values?

  KC Davis 29:27

  Well, I feel like that's like one of the biggest misconceptions too is like debt is bad. Debt is always bad. I had that

  River Nice 29:33

  message. You said Dave Ramsey, and I was like, Yep, he says that we are sinners, and we are terrible people if we have any debt at all, and that we're not allowed to have a single ounce of joy in our life until all of the debt is gone. And who benefits from that? Because it's not you and me.

  KC Davis 29:49

  Well, it's a lot easier to stay in your, you know, like, not even making survival wages. If you feel like you just deserve to have no joy in your life and because of your orell failing of being in debt, and that you can't go out and have any fun, which is alright, yeah, you won't have any more. You won't need money to have fun because you'll just be. Yeah. All right, another quick break. And then I want to get into some questions about like, where people might start depending on where they are. Okay, we're back. And so remember, I had like, sort of this 1234, like different scenarios. And I would love to hear if you have any, like practical takeaways, or maybe just some overarching advice, but like, where could someone else position start? So the first one would be like, if someone's in a lot of debt, and they just don't even really know where to start? Like, where do you start with them? Where could just like a listener start?

  River Nice 30:40

  But I always start with organizing, actually, what is the debt? Where is it? How much do you owe? What are the interest rates? What are the minimum payments, a lot of times folks are so scared that they refuse to even look at it, which I totally get, right. Again, this feels like a direct threat to survival. But you're not gonna be able to do much about it, if you don't know actually the extent of the situation. So you can go to the Federal Student Aid website to get the actual specific numbers about your student loans. And you can get your credit reports from annual credit report.com, for free to find out, what are the other debts associated with your social security number? Where do they live? Who do you owe the money to? How much money do you actually have anything in collections or not? I make your list, you know, right out, how much do I owe to whom, what's the minimum payment, what's the interest rate, if you're in a situation where you can make all of the minimum payments, great, you work on building a budget, or just having money flow in and flow out in such a way that you make at least the minimum payments. And I would always always rather see somebody making minimum payments sustainably than throwing too much money on the debt and then having to go further into debt before the next paycheck comes. So that would be a starting point. If you are able to make more than the minimum payments, and you don't know how much is sustainable. There's a free online calculator called the debt blaster calculator, you can Google debt blaster calculator, and that'll help you understand how throwing an extra 10 bucks a month is going to impact your debt timeline or an extra 20 bucks a month, and kind of go from there. But again, make sure that you are keeping enough money, like liquid in your checking account, if you have, you know, if possible, if you're actually making enough to live to be able to afford all your bills so that you're not going further into debt before your next paycheck just because you threw too much at the debt upfront.

  KC Davis 32:25

  Also, I was like an absurdly old age before I realized that you could like call companies and negotiate and try and work out like, you know, I can pay you a smaller amount now or like, I didn't know I did that. That was even something that you could do.

  River Nice 32:40

  Yeah, it's always worth a try. I'm glad you brought it up. I feel like in our current economic environment, it's going to be hard to get any credit issuers to decrease interest rates, because interest rates are on the rise everywhere. But you can try you know, and if you're doing the dishes anyway, or doing something else anyway, and you don't mind sitting on hold for half an hour. It's worth a try. And when it comes to making decisions like that, like is it worth this time and effort to try to save money? I think about like, is half an hour of my time worth potentially $100? For me, yes. You know, and so that's a way to think about whether the effort might be worth the return. And then certainly, if anything, does go to a collections agency, absolutely negotiate that do not pay them in full. That's not how they work. But I don't want to spend too much time on this.

  KC Davis 33:26

  I find that with medical bills, too. Like, yeah, I mean, yeah, like my credit card company is not going to like cut me a deal for us or whatever, right? I'm like, student loans aren't but often if you call a hospital and just say like, I don't have this money, they'll often be like, Alright, can you give me a fourth of it? Or whatever? Yep. Okay. So next one, how do you work with someone who is living paycheck to paycheck or like they're just surviving?

  River Nice 33:52

  Yeah. So similar advice in terms of getting organized, I think a lot of times, we are avoiding the reality of the numbers of the situation, because it's so painful and stressful to look at and can be, like, demoralizing to look at. But I want you to try to gain agency where you can first because I think what's so terrible from one of the many things that's so terrible about being stuck in barely surviving mode is that feeling of just a total lack of autonomy and agency. So if you can go look at like an actual, like, where all of your money went last month, where all of your money came in last month? And here, are there any changes that you want to make? I'm not saying you have to cut out the copy to be a good person, right? I'm not saying you need to do X, Y, or Z to be a good person. I'm saying, Are there opportunities for you to claim agency and autonomy in your day to day financial reality? And then, you know, maybe looking at how much money you make can give you an indication of whether this gig pays better than that gig or putting more of your time and energy towards this thing versus that thing. Or if you took a class online, you'd be able to improve your skills To get a better paying job in your industry, like looking at opportunities to increase income, looking at opportunities to decrease expenses, maybe if you can find a cheaper place to live, you know, like, all of this is up to your autonomy, your decision for your life, none of it makes you a good or bad person. But like if you have opportunities to adjust your situation incrementally that could help you end up in a better situation in the long run.

  KC Davis 35:26

  That's great advice. Do you have any like favorite online, like websites that will like kind of automatically do like a pie chart of where your spending is going?

  River Nice 35:35

  Great question. So not a pie chart and not automatic. But I do have a free spreadsheet template on my website, be intentional financial.com. And that is designed to take you through looking at your money for the very first time. So you can follow this steps there. It comes with a series of videos telling me what to do if manual data entry into a spreadsheet via a computer is not accessible to you. The min app is the free app that you can use on your phone that links with your bank accounts, you just have to go in and categorize each of the transactions that happened because the artificial intelligence is probably going to categorize things incorrectly the first time. So that can be a free tool to try. And then if you are you and a partner wants to do it together, one of my clients recently told me that they really liked the honey do app to be able to manage it as a couple. So those are a couple of free things to get started.

  KC Davis 36:23

  Cool. Okay, so how about somebody who is financially stable, maybe for the first time ever? And they're now thinking towards the future? And kind of going, where do I start? Because there's all sorts of things out there like that can feel really intimidating, about like a 401k, a Roth IRA, and just investing? Do I just build a savings? Like what what does that look like for someone who wants to start planning for the future?

  River Nice 36:47

  Totally. So that is the type of person who might benefit from working with me, honestly, that's the type of situation that I am most qualified and useful for. So I offer free consultations, if anybody wants to talk to me for 30 minutes and get a sense of what they need to focus on first, and whether it is the right time and price point to work with a professional or not. So be intentional financial.com, you can schedule that pre consultation. Besides that, I suggest that people start short term and then start thinking longer term from there. So first, build up the emergency savings, to make sure that you can handle an unexpected bill, make sure that you've got a monthly budget that includes how much you're redistributing, if that's relevant to your experience, and then start thinking about how much am I saving up per month for the thing that I want to do six months from now, a year from now, two years from now? And then am I investing for things that are further away than two years from now? And am I thinking about investing for retirement? So that could be a framework to start with?

  KC Davis 37:45

  All right. And then the last question, where would you start with someone who came to you and they had really already begun to accumulate wealth?

  River Nice 37:52

  Yeah. Similarly, I would start with the short term and build out to the longer term, because we want to be doing all of this for long term sustainability, the lives that we want. But if you do already have wealth, we're talking a little bit more on the redistribution end of things and what is sustainable while still letting you have a good life. So we'd be looking at short term is what I have prepared for emergencies actually appropriate, or am I keeping too much cash around too much cash in the bank? How much having invested so far for my medium and long term goals? And is that appropriate? Do I have a chance at inheriting more in the future? And what am I going to do with that inheritance? With that unearned money as it comes in? And yeah, kinda like how do all the pieces fit together according to my values, and like, levels of privilege? Does that help?

  KC Davis 38:45

  Yeah, that's awesome. Those are all really my question. This has been honestly a really cool conversation. I think you kind of hit the nail on the head when it's like most people think about money is going to be a dry subject, but it's really not when you talk about holistically and so I really appreciate the conversation. Yeah, are there any other things about you you would like to plug before we go

  River Nice 39:04

  oh, people can find me on Instagram river nice stuff, financial planner. Tiktok River, not river nice dot finance. And then like I said, my website is the intentional financial.com. And thank you so much, Casey for talking about money on the podcast. And money is like still one of the biggest taboos and I think it really helps to be able to talk about it and hear about it and start conversations. So thanks for having me.

  KC Davis 39:25

  Awesome. Thank you.

Coaching is an interesting field with many nuances, and we hear a LOT of buzz about coaching right now. There are coaches for literally EVERY aspect of life. While there are things to appreciate about the field of coaching, there are definitely things to look out for, as well. I’m joined by my good friend, Heidi Smith, who is a Licensed Professional Counselor.

In Part 2 of this conversation, I’m joined by Rachel Ambrose for a coach’s perspective. Rachel is a coach for neurodivergents who has been diagnosed with ADHD and autism. As someone who holds multiple coaching certifications, she is here to give us a better look at the coaching field. She talks about the bounds of coaching and her personal experience around green and red flags in the industry. Rachel shares tips to help people know how to find a helpful coach and be more knowledgeable about the coaching field.

Show Highlights:

• How Heidi partners with clients and coaches in her counseling work

• Why there are legitimate questions about the training and oversight in the coaching field

• Why coaching is, by definition, a less intimidating relationship than with a therapist but is like “paying for a friend”

• How coaching and therapy embody very different relationships, lanes, and ethics

• What to consider in questions about licensure and certifications

• The ethical rabbit hole around the client’s relationship with therapists and coaches

• Why the coaching field is like the Wild West right now

• Pitfalls in the coaching industry around sexual integrity, case management, interventions, and narcissism

• KC’s experience in researching ADHD coaching

• The vagueness around a “spirituality coach”

• The bottom line about coaching: “Do your research and be aware of potential drawbacks.”

• Part 2 from Rachel Amrose:

• Green and red flags around coaching around the following:

• Power dynamics in the relationship

• “I have the cure/the magical answer for your problem!”

• Concrete, actionable items

• How to know if a coach’s training is worthwhile or not

• How to gauge a coach’s willingness to refer out–and stay in their lane

Resources and Links:

Connect with Rachel Ambrose: Website

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. I'm KC Davis, your host. And this is the podcast where we talk about mental health, self care, all things that have to do with just kind of surviving in the world that we live in. And I have my good friend, Heidi Smith, who is a licensed professional counselor supervisor with me. How do you? What are the chances I'm going to get angry emails from the coaching industry about this podcast episode?

  Heidi Smith 0:30

  Oh, as long as it's just you getting them, I'll be happy.

  KC Davis 0:33

  So I wanted to talk about coaching. Because it's an interesting field. And I feel like it requires a little more nuance than like a 60 second. Tik Tok can provide me?

  Heidi Smith 0:46

  Yes, it's an interesting field. And I've used coaches, but and I also have thoughts on them. There's I think there's certain things that I really appreciate about them. But I think there's certain things to look out for as well. Yeah. And there's like lots of different there's like recovery coaches in the addiction field. And there's ADHD coaches, life coaches, spiritual coaches I've seen and I financial coaches, financial coaches.

  KC Davis 1:11

  Yeah. And I'm kind of like you, like I have worked with really great coaching, I have seen coaching be really, really helpful. And I think that I have too much of a like, behind the scenes, like look at coaching, right? So it makes me extremely cautious about the field in general.

  Heidi Smith 1:30

  Yeah, for sure. At the same time, like, just, for example, you know, when I see an adolescent for therapy, which I because I specialize in substance abuse, I get a lot of substance abuse cases. And so if you want me to see your 15 year old son, you know, for individual therapy, I'm almost going to require you to have a coach on board. So because there are so many moving parts with an adolescent, you know, with school, with discipline, with contracts at home, things like that, that just to be honest, I don't, that's not what I love to do. It's not what I really want to do. I'm a therapist, I want to sit in the office with you and do therapy. I don't want to have to do all that other stuff. And I'm not great at it. And so, so I definitely partner with coaches. But But like you said, you know, it's the regulations around it. And, you know, the personalities behind it. You know, there's a lot of wildcards.

  KC Davis 2:29

  Yeah, the places that I've seen coaching work really well is like, I know, there's a there's a company in Dallas, like prides themselves on providing like wraparound services, where you'll see a therapist once a week, but then they have these coaches, and depending on your level of like mental illness, they'll come spend hours a day with you.

  Heidi Smith 2:47

  Yeah, they call them life development coaches.

  KC Davis 2:50

  Yeah. And they'll take you to do your laundry, and they'll talk about doing dishes, and they might even go to a social event together and talk about social skills.

  Heidi Smith 2:58

  Yeah, and I mean depending on, you know, the individual's level of functioning, I mean, it may be as detailed as taking you out to eat and teaching you how to order off a menu and teaching you how to put gas in your car and, and things like that. It's basic self care items, you know, all the way up to Yeah, just taking you to an AA meeting, taking you to play basketball, spending time with you developing social skills, things like that. So, and that's something that I can't do as a therapist.

  KC Davis 3:25

  Hmm. You know, I mean, there are some therapists that I guess, do some kind of out of the box things, you know, but for the most part, most of us have an office and you come in and you meet with us for an hour, and you leave. And so there are definitely limitations to what we can do. And so there, you know, I think these coaches fill a gap that is really necessary. I think what you start getting into is what kind of training do you have? What kind of oversight Do you have, you know, and ultimately, kind of who's, where's the oversight of those individuals? And there's some I feel like there's some coaching, that's way more cut and dry. So like, when the like development coaches, like they're specifically doing like life skills, you know, like we mentioned, or in someone who is, I mean, in a lot of ways, like, if you get like a Personal Organizer like that is they actually are a coach.

  Heidi Smith 4:16

  Absolutely.

  KC Davis 4:17

  Especially a good one that's not only going to engage like, I guess there are some people that are just personal organizers, like they're going to tell you where to put things, but the ones that I know that are really good are more like coaches, because they're going to examine, like, how do you operate in your space? And is it working for you? And like, what's keeping you from the skill of finding what you need? And what if you did it this way, and I actually interviewed a coach recently that I liked and asked her like, what she thought was the difference between like coaching and when you start to like, get into therapy world because it's when you get to like life coaching, that I feel like or like relationship coaching like the dating coaches and stuff. All of a sudden there's this like huge gray area.where it's like, how much can you talk about someone's feelings? And someone's like Outlook and beliefs before you start to get into like therapy world?

  Heidi Smith 5:09

  Yeah, yeah.

  Speaker 1 5:11

  I like the way she put it, she's like, you know, I can be there to offer a different perspective. But I'm not there to like mine the depths of like how to change yours.

  Heidi Smith 5:20

  Yeah, and getting into real deep clinical work, you know, I mean, I and it is that such a fine line that it's almost, you know, impossible to know exactly when it's been crossed. And same with career coaching. So I worked for an organization that went through kind of, you know, your typical cliche, almost like office space, the movie, you know, where they brought in, like custom consultants and, and, you know, we're kind of reevaluating the whole way, they did everything. And as part of that they brought in a coach and required us to all me do like six sessions with the coach, which, again, that's kind of getting into a whole different topic of, it seemed like, a little bit of a boundary violation, just even require that, you know, because it is kind of this deep personal work, we didn't get to pick the coach, it was there, it was a coach that they brought in. Either way I did it, obviously, I played ball and did the coaching, it was very interesting, like it was I got to, you know, work on setting career goals, and working on using my voice in different ways. And making kind of these micro adjustments at work and how I interact with other people. And it wasn't therapy, it was something different. And this woman was a trained coach, you know, with all kinds of certifications, it was much more of kind of like a professional, almost chart that she took me through, you know, of questions and actions and behaviors that I could change to meet my goals was very goal oriented, and not clinical. And she was clearly very well trained. But it was interesting, because it definitely, I mean, there was lots of sessions where I cried, you know, we're like, because I was like, facing fears of maybe, you know, using my voice in a staff meeting in a different way. And, you know, maybe asking for a raise, yeah, things like, very out of the box for me, but it was it honed in in a specific area of my life that I probably would have never done with a therapist.

  KC Davis 7:19

  So when I ran the rehab back in the day, one of the things that that was actually really helpful about the coaches that we employed was that like, a client would have a session with a therapist. And, you know, in a perfect world, like you're being totally transparent with your therapist, even when you kind of you're like saying things like, oh, I don't think that's going to work or I don't like the way you just said that or I'm feeling kind of uncomfortable in our therapeutic relationship. And like not everybody's there. And it was it was interesting to see, you know, this person would go in, they'd sit with this therapist that they saw as like this expert, usually older, more credentialed more training, and they'd come out of it. And they'd kind of be like, I don't know, like, what I everything that I think about that, right. And they turn around and have a session with their recovery coach and kind of like, share those doubts and fears. And that recovery coach was truly like the backdoor, like the guard of the backdoor of like, keeping them enrolled in recovery of like, yeah, man, I get it like I've been there. One time I like they do a lot of more like self disclosure, like, let me share my experience with how like, I wasn't sure therapy was working. But here's how it was really helpful. And kind of answer any questions. And then like, Have you have you talked to your therapist about that kind of like what you were talking about with like adolescents and homework and stuff? Like, it's like somebody else out the door?

  Heidi Smith 8:40

  Yeah, absolutely. And it's, I think, by definition, it's supposed to be a less intimidating, professional relationship. And so it's an enemy. There's actually a whole industry of peer recovery coaching certifications, where it really is like peer to peer mentorship, as opposed to a professional hierarchy. And so I think that's 100% I mean, it's, you're gonna get a whole different person. You know, like you said, for half for at least 50% of the population goes into therapy, even I do after years of being a therapist, like the last time I did you kind of a ballot of therapy myself, I mean, like, I was kinda I wanted to impress her and I wanted to make her think I was Yeah, I don't know. It's like I had to confront even myself in that context of realizing that I don't always go in like 100% Raw, vulnerable, authentic into my therapists office.

  KC 9:35

  It is also like paying for a friend. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but it's like, you know, a friend when I go to a friend like when I call you for advice, like I I'm calling you for like your like, casual as a person friendship like advice on a situation like I'm not expecting you to be perfectly objective or to hold some like unconditional positive regard. Hard for me like, you're gonna tell me I'm being an asshole if you think I'm being an asshole. And like, there might be a day that I call you and you're short with me and but like, that's a friend that I'm expecting to hear from, but I also like, I also can hold space for recognizing, like, am I treating this as a reciprocal friendship? Like, do you call me with your problems? When I call you with my problems? Am I also interested in your life and I think coaching can be helpful for people that maybe find themselves in this place where it's like, okay, I need some help. Not necessarily like therapy, deeps emotional work, but like, I have the situation at work, where it's kind of toxic, and I need to learn how to be I'm struggling with my ADHD and I can't seem to get anything clean. I can't get anything organized. I'm missing appointments. And like, I honestly need someone who can kind of serve as that one way street. But yeah, but more of a peer not like, it's a sure.

  Heidi Smith 10:56

  And it's more, I think, also, it's more accessible. And real time in theory, you know, like, depending on Yeah, situation, it's like, and I'll see my therapist for two weeks, and I only have a 50 minute session with her, you know, and I'm unpacking all this other childhood stuff, you know, but my coach over here, like, I can call him because I just got written up at work. And you know, I'm in my car crying over at lunch, and I may not be able to get a hold of my therapist, but that may be something that my life coach can walk me through. And so I think it's more accessible. And like you said, casual in, like, all the right ways.

  KC Davis 11:33

  Yeah. And I think that, like, if I were to work with a person, one on one about their home, like, based on like, the book that I wrote, and the content like that truly would be coaching. And absolute, because I would be asking, like, What messages do you tell yourself about care tasks? Like, that's an appropriate question for a coach, and then they'd share. And if they shared like, well, you know, my mother used to beat me, when my room wasn't clean. Like, if I was in a therapy session, where we would go with that is like, let's talk about that. And let's talk about those feelings. And let's maybe think of some modalities or interventions to talk about that trauma. Whereas if I'm going to address them as a coach, I'm going to go Okay, so like, it seems like, that's probably affecting the way that you look at cleaning now. So, you know, maybe we can come up with a, like a mantra that you can use to remind yourself that, you know, you're in your home and your home is safe now.

  Heidi Smith 12:34

  And right, like, that's yes, like moving kind of see moving around that in a different way than necessarily trying to sit there and unpack it. And that's, and that's like, exactly, I mean, that's where you get in the danger zone, you know, is is like coaching is very dependent on the specific into Huami I guess this is true for everything, like therapists to your it's very dependent on that specific person's training, level of integrity, and like level of humility, and ego of like, what they're capable of, and staying in their lane. And so being able to, to know that person and know that, like they're not trying to play therapist, and that they understand what their lane is, and that they have a some kind of guiding ethics around, like, here's what I do. And here's my lane. And here's what I don't do. And I guess that's true in most industries.

  KC Davis 13:30

  Right. And so, you know, but finding though there's really lacking that that licensing process, though, yeah, like, because, yes, you can get a therapist, that's not good. But I think the danger zone is like, if you get a therapist that is downright unethical and dangerous, like there is recourse out for reporting that person, right. So and I think that's like the good and I, I couldn't help but notice that like, one of the green flags, I guess, for coaching is like the great coaches that I've known, has been on a team. And I'm not saying there aren't great coaches that just kind of run their own business. I'm sure that there are, but I think that it definitely is helpful when you know, okay, there's the company that I knew that they would give you a therapist and a coach, or, you know, if you were to encourage, you know, an adolescent to get a coach, like, ideally, you'd be able to communicate with that person. Well, yeah, and that parent was in charge of that,

  Heidi Smith 14:25

  What like the, you know, some of those organizations you're talking about, even the the plan, the coaching plan is developed by a team that includes therapists. And so, you know, there's oversight, there's planning, and there's guiding ethics, even just by nature of being an employee of this organization. You know, like, we have obvious ethics as therapists, you know, I mean, we can't have dual relationships, we can't cross boundaries in the area of, obviously romantic sexual contact I mean basics right? And So having guiding principles and ethics around that, you know, is of the utmost importance.

  KC Davis 15:06

  Yeah, for for that reason, I think that I, most of the time would be more comfortable with someone that was an employee somewhere, right, like a coaching business with employees. Yeah, I'm not saying that there aren't individual contractors out there that are great. I'm just saying that like with an independent contractor, you have to do a lot more research, and have a lot more discernment when you look at them. And so I think that's like the good, right. So let's pause for a second here from our sponsors. And then I want to come back and talk about the bad and why I feel so apprehensive about coaching, even though I know it can be so helpful, you would think that like, one of the downsides to coaching are that coaches might dabble in mental health things that really they shouldn't, because they don't have that training, they don't have that education. And that's certainly one of the errors, especially when someone is a quote unquote, life coach, like it's kind of nebulous, like, What do you mean little life coach, like, there's not a specific skill set that they're focusing on? To help them develop? It's just general life coach, right? So you might think, you come across someone, and it's like, wait, but this person is a coach, and they have a Master's in Counseling. So like, that's the best of both worlds. And unfortunately, unless that person is also like, I know someone who is a therapist and a coach, but she maintains her therapy licensure, like, she still has a private practice. And she does therapy work. And then she also has a coaching business where she does, like cleaning, organizing, making appointments, and she does not take the same clients for both, okay, you can only be one or the other. And with that one, she is very clearly delineates, like, I'm helping you develop life skills. Yeah. And I'm talking about how you've organized your pantry and why it's hard to clean and how you're feeding yourself. And someone like that I would be comfortable with because if they were to do something unethical in a coaching space, like their board would still hold them responsible for that. Sure, right. Because it's like, oh, you know, you're a licensed therapist, and but you've got this like side gig where you're taking advantage of people. The part that makes me so nervous, is when a person has a Master's in Counseling, but they don't have licensure. And they're working as a coach.

  Heidi Smith 17:35

  Well, and then I mean, not and this isn't I'm not I don't mean this to be a wholesale judgment. But my first thought is like, Well, why don't you have a license? Yeah, and you know, because it's definitely something somebody who maybe has had their license removed, for, you know, who knows why, then it's like, they hang up the shingles coach. And so either way, I mean, whether they choose not to have a license or not, I would definitely want to look into the history there.

  KC Davis 18:01

  And, you know, I have to admit, like, this is 100% a prejudice on my part. But it's a prejudice based on experience. So I'm in no way saying that, like, every person out there, like, and I, you know, what I've actually heard a lot of is I came across someone the other day, and she was a black woman. And she said, You know, I have given up my licensure, because I'm uncomfortable with the position that puts me in when I'm working with people where I might get, you know, required to turn over medical records. Interesting. And here's the thing I don't I'm not like a marginalized population. And I certainly know that a lot of governmental systems are not set up to protect marginalized people. And so like, I think that's an interesting perspective. And so I'm not saying that anybody that, you know, decides not to get licensure. I also know like having ADHD, I can for sure, see someone who is trained and capable, that like, just couldn't get it together to get licensure. Sure. Sure. They couldn't do the admin part, maybe or get it renewed. Yeah, yeah. Or maybe they got a supervisor and their supervisor was really traumatic. And they just were like, Oh, God, I can't do this. Maybe they decided I want to be able to go to people's homes and help them with doing laundry. That's really my jam, like so. So please, if you're listening, it's not a wholesale condemnation. But I do want to share my experience. The only three people that I've ever known to hold the education of either being a therapist or a psychologist that did not hold licensure, all had sexual misconduct, yes, either before or after, right, some lost their license because of sexual misconduct and became coaches. Others never got their licensure. And then I come to find out that there's some sexual misconduct going on. Like truly that is and so that's why I personally am just like, now I have to say, all three of those people were men, heterosexual sis men. So that, frankly, may be more of a discussion for like, the red flags of like men that are not holding licensure that want to work with women. Yes. But then again, like, there's women out there like Teal Swan. Yeah, who certainly has some education? I think she has like a bachelor's in psychology or something ridiculous. Right? And, you know, she's pretty dangerous also.

  Heidi Smith 20:24

  Yeah. I mean, it's gosh, I mean, there's so there's, it's such a rabbit hole, when you go down, you know, the unethical things that we've seen in this industry, both coaching and licensed professional counseling or social work, and realizing, you know, when I was in school, you know, they talked so much about it during my ethics class. And I remember thinking, like, Who are these people that are like having sex with their clients? It just seems so like fantastical, you know, almost just like, that's got to just be like, you're one off, that never happened. I mean, you know, and then when I started working in the field, I mean, it's just it happens left and right. And, you know, realizing that this is that nobody's actually above it. And it's one of the things as a supervisor, and as a teacher that I've really, really been passionate about is helping people realize that you may think you're an amazing person with a great kind of ethical grid, but you find yourself in some blind spot. And it can happen quicker than you realize. And especially, you know, yeah, I mean, it happens to male therapists a lot. It happens to women therapists a lot.

  Speaker 1 21:35

  Yeah, if you've been practicing for any amount of time, and you can, like, I almost like don't believe someone who's been in practice, like, decades and decades, says that they've never been attracted to a client.

  Heidi Smith 21:46

  Oh, yeah. I mean, if you're not like, if you're open about, you know, that transference and countertransference, which is kind of a clinical term for, for that energy exchange, that happens and those feelings that happen in the context of the relation that therapeutic relationship. Yeah, I mean, that's, it's insane to think that your human beingness, you know, wouldn't show up in that context?

  KC Davis 22:10

  Well, it's interesting, because I think that would prevent like a counseling student or an intern or an associate from bringing up that they were feeling that is this fear that like, they're going to think I'm someone who is going to be unethical, but like the difference between therapists that are ethical, and there are like the difference between therapists that engage in sexual misconduct and therapists that don't, is not whether or not they've ever felt attracted to a client. It is whether or not they've ever been open with a peer about that and asked for, like, accountability around working out that transference.

  Heidi Smith 22:47

  Absolutely, and have a healthy amount of fear of themselves like, right, I'm not above this. I mean, I'm human, and I'm feeling a certain energy in this room that's scaring me. And I need to be open with it and seek counsel and seek supervision, and figure out how I can therapeutically navigate that or how I can end this relationship. And so I 100% agree. I mean, it's about the humility to be honest, and ask for supervision.

  Speaker 1 23:15

  And I think that's kind of what I hesitate or what scares me about the coaching field right now, as it stands being kind of like the Wild West, because you can find companies that offer certifications, you can find companies that offer training. But I think what the general public doesn't understand is like the difference between licensure and certification, like licensure is run by your state government. And they have big groups of people that come together to decide like what kind of education a person has to have, and what kind of training they have to have. And then there's this centralized place, where they oversee all the people that have licenses, and they're all under the same ethics. And if you report someone the same, you know, everyone gets the same kind of investigation. Whereas certifications, like certifications can be great. Like, I want to go to someone that has a certification for XYZ, I want to go like, if I did want to coach, I would want someone that had a certification. But the general public needs to understand that like, I, as Casey Davis could wake up tomorrow, make a PowerPoint presentation and offer a certification at the end. And people could listen to my

  Heidi Smith 24:23

  right and just print out a certificate. Yeah, like it's that easy.

  Speaker 1 24:27

  So you have to look when someone says I'm certified as a life coach, you have to go figure out like, let me Google that company like was that a coach that I interviewed? She did a nine month training. Yeah. supervise our boundaries? Yeah. Whereas other people can take a weekend course. Yeah. And so I think, you know, I really don't believe that, like fair, I think it's easy to get into that elitist space where it's like, therapists are better than coaches. And that's not true and they're different and the The kinds of people that are therapists are not different or inherently more ethical than the kinds of people that become coaches, it's just that there are systems set up within a licensure world to provide a place for that supervision so that people can talk about that, that provide a place where we know that everyone's getting that same education on those sorts of dangers. And there's that oversight so that if someone does mess up, we can.

  Heidi Smith 25:27

  Absolutely, and then there's, I mean, continuing education requirements. And you know, it's an ongoing, the license is an ongoing process. It's not a one time training over a weekend.

  KC Davis 25:39

  And what I would see sometimes with coaches, and it was typically again, it was older men who would do coaching. And often what I would see is they would work for organizations, but they would only be independent contractors, sure, so that when they kind of overstepped a boundary, there was no firing, there's no employment, like it can just move on record. Yeah, they just the person who usually approaches them, they don't want to make a big to do or a big hug, and they just go, you know what you need to go, we're not going to renew your contract, and they go, and they go to the next place. And there's not like this record of who's been investigating or who's been keeping up. And it's really unfortunate, they can go to a different state, and they can do this. And so that's why I feel sometimes really, I think it's really careful. I certainly, and again, I know this is prejudice, but it's one of those things where it's like, I'm sure there are really great, loving stray dogs, but like, it's still safer to say never pet a stray dog, because like, it's just not worth accidentally petting the wrong one. Sure, like, I just would never send a woman to get a coach that was a heterosexual sis man. And I'm sorry, to all of the men out there that maybe are the best coaches in the world that love to work with women, but like, I just never would. Yeah, it's too risky.

  Heidi Smith 26:55

  I don't know any, none of the coaches that I currently work with are referred to. It's all gender specific. And so I definitely, I think to err on the side of caution, you know, men coaches should work with male clients and female coaches should work with female clients. And that's not to say that's not failed.

  Speaker 1 27:15

  I mean, I have some room for like, well, and I have some room for identity too, like, sure. I've never seen like a gay man. Pray on a straight woman. Right. Yeah. And if you are, you know, and if you actually, yeah, yeah, that's true. Everyone can prey on anyone. Yeah. Or, you know, if you're a gay woman, like that's, that's a similar dynamic, working with someone who falls in line with who you would be attracted to. She would see in that air, you know what I mean? Like, I guess that's

  Heidi Smith 27:43

  who the potential lies for you to sexualize? Yeah,

  Speaker 1 27:46

  exactly. You know, I mean, the real question is, like, is this the type of person you would fuck? Right, let's be real, right? And not not even as a client. I'm not saying the client should ask that. I'm saying that like, yeah, the type of person that coach would fuck probably don't go with that coach. Yes, exactly. And again, not because y'all, there aren't some out there that are amazing and wonderful. I just would be hesitant, I think, because of I think the coaching industry will get there. Like, I think we'll get to a place where at least when it comes to like life skills, coaching, maybe we have a better set of guiding printed regulatory.

  Heidi Smith 28:22

  Yeah, well, and the interesting thing is, I mean, the only pitfall isn't even like, the idea of sexual integrity. But I mean, so many families I work with which I work in the addiction field, have been at least they claim now, I haven't done my own investigation. But you know, I talked to I work with young adults. And so I talked to moms and dads that have been burned financially by coaches, interventionists, you know, because interventionist is another, you know, and then worse, right, and case management. Yeah, that's another kind of interchangeable word. As you know, the in the addiction industry is the idea of these case management, people who kind of come in and get really involved with the family and help guide them as to how to deal with their son and where to send them and things like that. Now, I want to say, I mean, I most of the case managers, interventionists that I work with, obviously, if I'm working with them, I respect them and trust them, and so value, the space that they're in, in the work that they do, and they're needed. So I want to make that clear. But you know, there's bad X, and a lot of the abuse that I've seen actually has really been financial, hey, you need to pay me you know, $20,000 for a six month contract of case management, and then they don't do shit. It's like two phone calls a month, you know, I mean, and it's, and they can't ever get their money back. And so,

  Speaker 1 29:50

  yeah, and I'm kind of with you where it's like I so that like it's such a needed role, and I do value it. I just feel really, really bad for clients and families. Because you almost have to be like, someone like me someone like you someone inside the industry who's all connected to know what you're looking at. And that's unfortunate is like, there's no way to know what you're looking at.

  Heidi Smith 30:14

  Yeah, I mean, a family will call and tell us that they're working with a certain interventionist or certain case manager. And it's like, we all roll our eyes, you know, like to ourselves and just think like, oh, shit, it's not he's not the worst, but he's not the best. And you're probably not going to get your money's worth, and you know, and whatnot. And so yeah, it is, it's like, you have to kind of have your own experience your own insider information. And families get taken all the time.

  KC Davis 30:40

  And I always felt like, there's ton of like two kinds of people that become therapists, there are like people that have dealt with their own shit, then go, wow, I found that process so valuable. I would love to be the person that helps other people engage in that process. And then there's people that are like, they have not dealt with their own shit. And they have like a weird savior complex, and a very, like, it's the kind of people like you and I used to joke that, like, we would look around in counseling school and be like, some of you should just be rescuing puppies. Yeah, please like that. Like, like, just just don't like if you're, if that's what you like, just don't like if you really need to, like bleed heart all over someone, like go rescue puppies, like, don't do this, or that arrogance of like, I can help people, I can fix people, I can save people. And I feel like you run into that same thing when it comes to the coaching industry, where it's like, there's two kinds of people that become coaches, there's people who have, like, figured some stuff out and gone through some difficult times and came out the other end with a lot of wisdom, and a lot of practical skills, and realized, I love I've been telling my friend, I love this. Like, I feel like I could help people. And then the other person is like a person that goes through like their experience, and then believes that their experience is gospel and then decides, I just want people to pay me to tell them my experience.

  Heidi Smith 32:01

  Yeah, there's a lot of narcissists in this industry. And again, there's a lot of nurses licensed and not in every industry to I mean, you know, so it's like, it's hard to know, because they present well, and they sound good, you know, but sometimes they're definitely a one trick pony. You know, I mean, they what they have to offer is what worked for them. And that's kind of all they've, they've got.

  Speaker 1 32:24

  Yeah. So I wanted to share with you, at the end of this episode, I'm going to play the interview that I had with this coach. And I thought it'd be interesting for me to share with you like as I was looking at her website, like what I as a person who's really familiar with the industry, like saw that gave me like green flag vibes. Okay, right. Okay, I'm gonna pull it up. Hang on. So it's ADHD coaching. So off the bat, I love that there is a specific focus. Yes. Right. And on the front page, you can see prices and their per session. I like that. I'm not saying it's the only right way to do it. But I would say if someone's asking me to prepay for six months of something, yeah. Before I've had any experience with them, it raises, I'm more cautious. Yeah, absolutely. Like, I'm going to need them to really justify to me what that's about. And but right on the homepage, can you diagnose me? No, coaches do not diagnose? And there's a whole paragraph about that. Right? Do you work with kids? No, I do not work with kids. How do you know what you're talking about? And then there's a list of where she got some certifications, where she got trained a little bit about herself.

  Heidi Smith 33:33

  And so she's already saying on the website, what she doesn't do, which I think is yes, yeah. Here's what I do. Do and here's what I don't do. Yeah.

  Speaker 1 33:42

  And so when you go to her like sessions and services, you know, obviously, you have like the individual coaching sessions, and but then she has group coaching sessions and listen to that sandbox, a weekly group motivation session for neurodivergent creatives on Thursdays. It's four sessions per month, about what you pay, and then she has a price. Hype yourself up about your creative practice and hype others up. And it's just like a, you know, when you're feeling stuck, yeah. And I'm like that to me way green light, because it's like very much I'm a peer. And I'm gonna bring together other peers, and it's about like, pushing each other and encouraging each other and helping get unstuck from like, a creative process, or maybe a work process.

  Heidi Smith 34:27

  Well, yeah, and there's not a lot of clinical jargon, too. Yeah, that's another red flag for me is when I hear a coach talking, saying a lot of clinical jargon, like, you know, trauma, just even that it's like, well, you know, work on their trauma. It's like, are you gonna do you need to be working on their trauma, you know, so even just the words that and

  Speaker 1 34:45

  then the next thing is, yeah, there's no clinical jargon. Okay, so then we have group body doubling sessions, get more things done with other neurodivergent people. It's great for those who thrive on seeing other people's energy and progress. And I'm like, see, that's great. Yeah. If we're gonna get on a video call and get, you know, get something done around our house that we need to get done that's hard to motivate ourselves for. And then she also has a queer Joy support peer support group, where we get together and we pull from each other's collective wisdom, share weekly wins, and even make friends. So off the bat, I love that she has outlined some very specific skill takeaways that you'll get from her. It's not just I'm going to help you with your life. It's like, oh, she's really honed in on like, I'm here to facilitate I'm here to look at specific skills and help you get unstuck, so you can access those skills. I don't know, what are your thoughts on that?

  Heidi Smith 35:39

  Yeah, no, I mean, I love it. I think even just the words about you know, she used the word, we're gonna hype you up, and really motivating, and supporting is what the whole purpose is. And so I mean, I couldn't agree more that there's a lot of green flags there, in the way that she's presenting what she does in a really authentic way.

  Speaker 1 35:59

  I love it. One thing that is a red flag for me, and I don't even know that it means that it's always bad. But man, I've never met a spirituality coach that I trusted.

  Heidi Smith 36:12

  Man, that's such a gray area, right?

  Speaker 1 36:15

  And the reason is, is because by nature of the very like subject of spirituality, it's just too easy to create a power dynamic.

  Heidi Smith 36:26

  Yeah, I don't even what is I mean, I don't even know what is a spirituality coach. I don't like are they? Did they go to seminary? Are they trained and a specific?

  Speaker 1 36:36

  Yeah, I don't, might be might not be, but I'm thinking like all Teal Swan type characters. But others like that I've come across that maybe you're talking about teaching meditation, or that could turn into illness cult leader real quick. That's where I go, it just makes me nervous. Like, I would rather find a community to help somebody plug into Yeah, or a group something or another versus like a one on one, I'm going to teach you about spirituality just because again, like, it's so easy to get into this area where all of a sudden, it's like, I'm the person that holds the sacred knowledge. Right? And I know you better than you know, yourself. Yeah, yeah,

  Heidi Smith 37:16

  There's a lot of power and influence. When you start, you know, throwing around spirituality, I think there's an opportunity, it just depends. If a life coach is getting involved in helping somebody seek, taking, hey, let's go visit, you know, a Buddhist temple, and let's go visit a synagogue and let's go try out a mosque. And let's explore some different options here and see if anything fits. I think that's great, you know, versus somebody who's trying to guide and lead in a way that creates a power dynamic. And so, man, it's, it's so much of it is dependent on the person. And I think that's the good and the bad, right? It's like, I could see somebody being an amazing coach who helps somebody explore spirituality, if they had like, incredible integrity and ethics and kind of guiding principles of here's what I do. And here's what I don't do. If somebody is on a narcissistic power trip with very little insight into themselves, and they're a quack, you know, who's just out to make money. And there's no way to know that until there's like, kind of bodies laying in the background. Yeah, I mean, metaphorically, you know, until you've seen the work that they've done, and there's already been damage. And so it's, that's a hard learning curve, you know?

  Speaker 1 38:38

  Yeah. And I mean, that's true of any I mean, that's not even a coaching specific thing, like I, you know, because we all know, priests and pastors and all sorts of people in really it because it comes with that spiritual authority. Yeah. I think yeah, for a lot of people that goes hand in hand.

  Heidi Smith 38:55

  Yeah. And that idea of giving somebody spiritual consent and your life. I mean, you even get into that with 12 Step sponsors, sponsorship, you know, is like, I'm going to put myself in a vulnerable position and give this other person in my life, like a level of spiritual consent for them to give a feedback and explore this kind of, in depth area of my life. And so, there's, there's a lot of opportunity for abuse there.

  KC Davis 39:22

  I love that term, like spiritual consent, or even like emotional consent, because I'm kind of someone that believes that, like, it's okay to give a person feedback if they're doing something really harmful, like anyone, right? Like if if I know of a therapist, and I don't know them, but they're doing something harmful for me to be like, hey, I need to, like give you some feedback here. And if there is something I can do via their licensure, fine, but if I know someone else and like, it's not that like, I have to have someone's permission to like point something out to them. But I do think that when it comes to like, just areas of like, Hey, this is where I think you're wrong about something or this is where I think you need to grow about something or this is where I think You have like a mistaken belief about something. It's not that I can't point it out. But to me, the spiritual comes into it. Like, if that person then says like, Okay, thanks. Or they say like, no, that's not it. That's to me where it's like, I don't then get to like, push and argue with them. And be like, No, it is, and here's why. And here's, like, engage with them. Unless that someone who has given me that like spiritual consent, as a friend that has said, I welcome you to push back on me.

  Heidi Smith 40:29

  Yeah, that's fine. I mean, I think it's a great term, actually, I'm sure it's like a common term, but I learned it from my husband, my husband uses it a lot in that in the context of 12 Step sponsorship, and, and with your spouse, and with your friends, and that, like you're talking about that there's this small circle for me that, that I've allowed somebody in my life and given them that spiritual consent. We're like, you know what, I'm open, like, you have hold a place in my life where, like, you get to tell me the truth at any time. Like, I've given you that spiritual consent. I haven't always, it's not always like a formal conversation, you know, but it's sort of an unspoken thing where that happens in really intimate friendships and intimate relationships.

  KC Davis 41:12

  And now this is like a little off topic. But it reminds me of a conversation I had with a psychologist from Divine where we were talking about, like, the difference between taking accountability for something in your community and be like, having to, like, let people walk all over you and just like, treat you like dirt because you messed up. And like, who has the right to, like, tell you that your accountability is or isn't good enough, or any of that. And she had this great metaphor, and she was like, you know, it's important. Like if you're in your in your, like, home, and your spiritual home or whatever. And people are saying, like, hey, we need you to come out and talk about this. And like, taking accountability is like stepping out and like opening your door and letting people look in and be like, Yeah, okay, this is what's going on inside. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that you have to let anybody just anybody come in your house and start like rifling through shit. Right? Like that you need specific consent for?

  Heidi Smith 42:09

  Yeah, absolutely. That I think having those personal boundaries, which is a whole different podcast, you know, but to understand, like, who, who deserves spiritual consent, and my life, and, you know, again, a different podcast, but that idea that employers, you know, especially in the helping industry, I think, oftentimes think that this is a space where just because like we're working in the helping industry, like we're all we're gonna run our staff, like, you know, like a big spiritual feedback session all the time. And I think that can get very abusive very quickly. ,

  Speaker 1 42:46

  And that we're going to definitely do an episode on that, because I could talk for days on that.

  Heidi Smith 42:51

  Oh, I could do and I've been a victim of it as well, myself. Yeah. So that's not maybe a victim, but I've experienced it for sure. Yeah.

  Speaker 1 42:59

  Okay. Well, thank you, Heidi. I mean, I feel like that's a good overview of like, The Good, the Bad, the Ugly. I think the bottom line is, do your research. Yeah, honestly, whether it's a therapist or not, I just be aware of some of the potential drawbacks. I think that also what I've seen is I've seen someone get under the thumb of a really unethical coach. And then they're you, like you said, like, you look around, there's like bodies on the ground. And then they want recourse. Right. And it's like, and you have to, and I think that's where this comes from, like, so I hope people can kind of understand why I feel so cautious about this. But it's like, if you've ever had to break it to someone who had been truly, like, violated emotionally, physically, spiritually by signing it, if they financially by someone that they believed to be an expert coming to help them if you've ever had to break it to that person. Oh, actually, there's nothing you can do. There is no one that you could tell there is no way to stop them. There is no way to put a mark on their record. There is no way to alert the public. I mean, like there's no governing authority. Yeah, there is no yeah, like, it's just so difficult. It is yeah. So I just that's the thing that I want people to be aware of. And look at that. And so So next I'm going to sit down and talk to actually that ADHD coach and hear from them what they think about the bounds of coaching, their personal experience about sort of green flags that they see in the coaching industry versus some red flags that they see to help the people that are listening that might find coaching helpful to them, to make them feel a little bit more equipped to be able to pick out a coach. I can't wait. Thank you, Heidi. Thanks. Rachel, thank you so much for being here. Will you introduce yourself to the audience?

  Rachel Ambrose 44:44

  Hi, I'm Rachel Ambrose. I run for to like coaching. I used to hear they pronouns but I'm really happy to be here.

  Speaker 1 44:50

  I am really glad that you're here too, because I was just speaking with my friend Heidi. She's a therapist and both of us have worked with coaches before so we're going to start talking about like the good, the bad, the ugly and And I wanted to bring in a coach and talk specifically about some of the green flags and red flags that people can look for if they feel like a coach would be helpful to them. Yeah, absolutely. Let's

  Rachel Ambrose 45:09

  Yeah, get into it.

  Speaker 1 45:10

  Okay, so one of the things that I loved that you said, was the difference between whether or how someone is presenting themselves as an expert, can you talk a little bit about like green flags and red flags there?

  Rachel Ambrose 45:23

  Yeah. So obviously, when you go to a therapist, they are an expert in mental health in whatever their modalities are. And I think it's really important when people go to coaches that it's very clear that they and the coach are on the same level, for two reasons. A, I think that it's very important that the client is centered in the entire coaching relationship. And in order to center the client, the coach needs to make sure that there's no weird power dynamics at play. And so in order to do that, the coach really needs to meet the client where they're at, and be able to work with the client, following the client's lead. And if you style yourself as an expert, there's already sort of that initial assumption of oh, this coach knows more than me like this coach, like, somehow got like the magical tips and tricks that I've never heard of, and cannot ever come up with in my own brain. And that's not a place where I personally coach from, and that I think, is a particularly useful dynamic to engage in. And I think that centering the client and making sure that the client knows that they are fully empowered to take the lead, puts the client in a really interesting position, because I don't know about you. But so many times where we express struggled with being neurodivergent folks in neurotypical society, we're just sort of handed these boilerplate advice bits that don't actually help us out in the long term. And a coach should really empower the client to be able to explore and come up with their own best solutions.

  Speaker 1 47:21

  So one of the things that you mentioned to me when we talked was and I guess we would call it maybe like a yellow flag when we're talking about like, someone who presents themselves on this pedestal as an expert is kind of a red flag, you want someone who's appear, but also like, in the marketing, when you see language about like, try my proven method, right? Or like, it's like, it's okay, if somebody has a workshop or whatever. But sometimes in the marketing, you can tell that there's like intention to exploit somebody's vulnerability. And like, they talk about cures and fixes. And there's this really awful woman on Tik Tok right now, who is making tech talks about how like her son used to have autism. And he, you know, she has cured him. And if you want to book with me one on one consultations, and like, I will coach you through what to do, right? And so like, immediately, you know, we should have red flags about like curing like, probably not, right, no, absolutely not get in. And it's like, all of this, like, let me sell you MLM supplements. But that would be I mean, my first red flag is anyone who says it can cure autism, but that if somebody may be a new parent wasn't, you know, didn't know anything about autism. But that should be the first thing is like curing fixing. You know, you're inherently broken, but I have the magical answer that I've put behind this paywall.

  Rachel Ambrose 48:43

  Yes, yes, yes. subscribe to my newsletter, where I will break down five easy steps for you to work with your autistic child and cure them of their No, absolutely not. We don't do that.

  Speaker 1 48:57

  Yeah. Okay. You mentioned the issue of training, like, obviously, there's no licensure, there's no like, training across the board. But how can we look at if somebody says, like, Oh, I've trained, what can we look at to know whether that person maybe has worthwhile training or not?

  Rachel Ambrose 49:14

  Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that it requires clients to be so much more canny than they would be if they were having the same conversation with a therapist. Because, yeah, coaches should go to coach school, they should go to ADHD specific code school, if that's the particular niche that you're trying to get help in. And some really great programs out there include AGCA, which is the education program that I went through. It's a nine month process. If somebody tells you that they took like a weekend course and how to become a life coach. Don't book them. It's a really intricate process because it's a completely different way of engaging With a person, then the typical conversation with anyone else might go. And you should be learning from mentors and certified master level coaches. Some good things to look for include ad code, badging, or I act badging or PAC badging on a coach's website. And those are all training programs and credentialing programs that cater specifically to ADHD coaches.

  Speaker 1 50:30

  Thank you. So the last little category that you mentioned, when we were talking was the idea of like a coach's willingness to refer out.

  Rachel Ambrose 50:41

  Yeah, I think that my golden rule for coaching is no your lane, love your lane stay in your lane. And so I will refer out for two reasons. Well, many reasons, but two big ones. One is I say coaching and therapy can work side by side. But they but coaching cannot cross into therapy. And what I mean by that, specifically is in regards to trauma and mental illness in terms of biochemistry. So if a client were to come to me and say I have ADHD and depression, but my depression is really well managed. And I'm working with a therapist alongside your coaching, that's great, we can play ball. If a client comes to me and says, I have ADHD and depression, I've been in a in and out of therapy for some time currently out of therapy. Yeah, we can give it a shot. And if it turns out that the depression is in need of adjustment, or if there's trauma that comes up within the course of the coaching relationship, I will immediately refer out because I can work with we can we can talk about trauma during the context of a session, I do not process trauma at all, I don't touch it. That is for people who are way more qualified than I am. And it they they should be able to be accessed. I've even sat on client calls where they have opened up like psychology today with me, and I bought it out with them while they have made those initial reach outs to their local therapists.

  Speaker 1 52:32

  So there's one thing that you said that I highlighted when you and I were emailing back and forth, and I just want to kind of read it and then have you maybe expand on it for our last little spot here. But you said, another really important element of coaching is its concreteness, a client might want to work on their blog, for example, a coach would say what specific things would you like to get done on the blog between this session and next, what feels sustainable, what feels like something that could fit easily into your schedule this week, once the client has narrowed down what they might be a realistic goal for the timeframe, the coach might offer to check in with them a few days and see how it's going. I love how you put that because I think what can be hard is like a therapist can do therapy. And they also sometimes provide what can what is kind of like coaching, like they can give you practical, practical advice, actionable advice, but they can also do the like, Hey, we're not going to necessarily take action items, we're going to like delve in and talk about feelings and talk about psychology. And so I appreciated that you brought that up, because I think if somebody is working with a coach, and they're not walking away with concrete, actionable things, then that will kind of raise a flag about like, what am I doing with this person? Like, what are they trying? Like, there's no ambiguous healing this person can give me right, like there should actually be walking away with concrete things. And so can you talk to that for just a second?

  Rachel Ambrose 53:54

  Yeah. So I think that having a specific outcome within the course of a session is a really important distinction from therapy. I personally have never walked into a therapists office and had the therapist sit me down and say, Okay, what are we talking about today, and whether it's, you know, mindfulness or whatever the topic may be, okay, what would be a successful metric for you to walk out of this session with, and then partnering with the client to make sure that they get there. And I think that, like people who are not familiar with coaching or have never been coached before, that can be a really important distinction to make between a coaching session and a therapy session, because it's, the client is totally in the driver's seat. And the coach is just there to make sure that they get to where they want to go. And then it's like, okay, like we've gotten to this action plan and now you have some concrete steps to go and work on your blog. And do you need any support from me? In order to fully accomplish this task over the next few days.

  Speaker 1 55:04

  Yeah, that's really helpful. It reminds me almost of like when you go bowling and they have like the bumpers that they can braid as it's like, this is you and your journey, you're going down the lane, but like, I can help act as those bumpers of like, you know, setting concrete goals, checking in with how you're feeling, checking in with, you know, what you're thinking and being maybe some accountability, maybe some different perspectives. Like I like that idea of, you know, I'm moving, I'm in charge of my journey. But from a practical sense, like, I need someone to kind of help me with these practical things as they go through. And again, like practical things are going to include like, Hey, I'm anxious about this, or I'm telling myself that I'm not good enough to do this. So like, yeah, as a coach, you're going to come up with those sorts of things. And so knowing how to talk to someone about those things is okay. But you know, I think that you're right, it just takes a good coach to know, you know, when are we talking about, hey, let me offer you a different perspective. Or let me share my experience with feeling like I wasn't good enough. Let me encourage you, you know, Hey, have you ever heard, you know, here's a saying that I heard that really helped me like at that versus getting into like, well, when? When was the first time you thought you didn't feel good? Right. So that's really helpful. Yeah, that's really helpful. So I'm

  Rachel Ambrose 56:18

  I like to say that coaching is for the present and future you whereas therapy sometimes can focus more on the past? Like I would never ask, like, when was the first time that you felt like you weren't good enough? Like, you know, that deep historical self narrative isn't really for coaches to touch a lot of the time. But if you are having issues with adjusting your expectations when it comes to like cleaning your kitchen, we can dig into maybe where those internalized expectations are coming from and whether they're appropriate for you to continue having and what you might want to replace them with.

  Speaker 1 56:59

  Yeah, that's helpful. Rachel, thank you so much. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about your services?

  Rachel Ambrose 57:05

  They can find me at my website is welcome to the porchlight.com and they can find me on Instagram at porch dot light dot coaching.

  KC Davis 57:15

  And you do ADHD coaching?

  Rachel Ambrose 57:17

  I do and audio HD coaching. I work with people who have the combo meal of ADHD and autism as well. Awesome.

  KC Davis 57:25

  Well, thank you so much, Rachel.

Racism. You may think you know what it is and in what ways it exists in our society, but it is a deep and multi-faceted topic. We could spend hours trolling the depths of language, attitudes, behaviors, and nuances that are influenced by race. We are attempting to explore and learn more in today’s show. I’m joined by Rebecca Slue, also known as the White Woman Whisperer. You may know her from TikTok, which is where I found her. We connected when I took an anti-racism course and reached out to her for help, and I’ve already learned a lot from her. Join us for more from Rebecca’s perspective.

Show Highlights:

• An example of how KC got into a quandary over comments on social media and the fear of being labeled as a racist

• How amazing conversations are happening when we aren’t concerned about perfectionism in our words

• What we need to understand about white supremacy

• How Rebecca uses a caste system model of values to understand the behaviors that perpetuate white supremacy

• Why our understanding of anti-racism is a journey and not a destination

• Rebecca’s experience of racial identity as she grew up the child of Jewish and Jamaican parents

• How Rebecca’s experience played out when she entered corporate America

• How she became the White Woman Whisperer

• How racism created a holistic layer of chronic stress for Rebecca

• How Rebecca uses a  metaphor to explain white fragility, white privilege, and the pinata of white supremacy

Resources and Links:

Connect with Rebecca: Website and Podcast, Instagram, TikTok

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello you sentient balls of Stardust, welcome to Struggle Care. It's the podcast about self care and mental health by a host that hates the term self care, and doesn't always have great mental health. I am here today with a friend of mine named Rebecca and you may know her as the White Woman Whisperer on Tik Tok. So hello, Rebecca.

  Rebecca 0:25

  Hello, KC. I'm glad you're here today. I'm glad I'm here, too. But we recorded an episode together that ended up being so long. Because you and I can't stop talking. Isn't that great?

  KC Davis 0:39

  problem to have? I'll take it. Yeah, I think so we'll do our best to be professional podcasters. Okay, so for the listeners, Rebecca and I met, I was actually taking a course an anti racism cohort. And there was like this section about black history. And at the end, it was like, reach out to a black person in your network and ask them, like, how were they taught black history? And so I sat there and I was like, okay, and I don't know why you came to mind first, but I was like, and I didn't really even know you that well. Also, that's a real humbling moment in your anti racism cohort where they're like a black person in your network, and you're like, oh, shit, I

  Rebecca 1:22

  gotta find, find. And I'm like, what black person in my network is not going to be offended by me being like, Hey, you're black. I was told to find the black mine.

  KC Davis 1:37

  And I remember being like, Okay, you and I had exchanged some messages. And you were making like, anti racism content. So I felt like, okay for white women to I mean, yeah, I felt like, okay, safe bet. Yeah. And I was in that phase, which I still am sometimes where I'm like, terrified of making a mistake. Yeah. I get that. It's fun when you bring your like perfectionism and to anti racism work. Oh, yeah, that's the killer. That will do it for you. But I was so happy to see the message from you. And I know that was so weird. But I mean, I was open, especially it was the beginning. I was so naive and innocent and excited. And you know, you were one of my first Mutual's where I was like, I think I may actually be doing something here. Like, it's got the right vibe. I like what she's doing. Like your content inspired a bit of my content in terms of moral neutrality, and not that perfectionism in terms of even being a black person. So it just made a lot of sense. I was like, Alright, let's see what this is going to be like. The questions were interesting, though. Well, and you quite literally had a huge role and a turning point for me like it was, gosh, it must have been like a year ago now. Like it was a while ago, it was a while. And I had a woman call me out because I had made a video where I had referenced having locks when I was like, 19. And I was kind of making a joke out of it. But the joke was just like, look at this thing. I did. Oh, my God, I was 19. And she left a message about like, hey, this doesn't sit right with me. You're like making light of it. But it's like kind of a big deal to some of us. But the problem was, is that I just like glanced at her profile. Well, so first, I was like, Okay, I hear you. And I took the video down. And then she started commenting, being like, Hey, you're not being accountable. You're not doing this, you're not doing that. And she was really passionate about it. And I mistakenly, because I just kind of glanced at her profile picture thought that she was a white woman. And so I came out like guns blazing, like, you know, how I would talk to some because sometimes that happens, like other white women want to like outwork me. Oh my gosh, yes. They try to outwork me so and I just don't have a lot of tolerance for it. I bet.

  Rebecca 3:54

  I bet I come out quick to especially when you see a lot of comments all the time. It happens it happens. Turns out, she identified as MCs. She was like, No, I'm talking about my culture, my own experience, like you have actually offended me. And anyways, details of this are not important. But basically, you know, I talked to her we sort of worked it out and I'm in an apology and but what started happening was that like, you know, on tick tock, the peanut gallery like everybody, oh, actually, I just learned that the peanut gallery is like a racist term as well. So that's not the best term to use. So did I. Okay, so lots of commenters. All the sudden I was getting flooded with comments that were like half of them were like, This is no big deal. You should not be making like, just let it go. And then half of the comments were like, yeah, no, you need to like do something about this. This was really horrible. And I was in that period of my anti racism journey where I was really into like, listen to black people, listen to black people, but the split was all black people. It was like half of the white people saying that my comment saying like, nor that girl is just making too big of a deal of it and then half of them

  mean, like knows is very, very serious. And so I was like, paralyzed. And I was like, What do I do? I don't know what to do. And I happened upon your content at that time. And I started like binge scrolling your content. And you had this one video where somebody was saying to you like, I'm so afraid of making a mistake. I'm so afraid of saying the wrong thing. And you had said to her, like, I mean, what's the worst that could happen? If you make a mistake, if you say the wrong thing. And she was like, well, like, I don't like when I'm trying to do the right thing. And people mistakenly think I've done something racist. And so like, now they think I've done the wrong thing, even though I've done the right thing, and she literally looks at the camera and you were like, you'll be fine.

  Right? Even if all of that is true, you will be fine. You will literally be okay. In the real use of literally, you are on this is the safest I can be as a black woman is on the internet. And for white women to say they're scared, especially afraid. This type of language of being disliked by a black person may be at worst case, you know, they don't like you. Okay, they yell things on the internet at you and, and the mistake your intentions, they will get over it and probably not even yell at you to be honest, when we make jokes, and you'll feel a little silly. And that's your moment. What do you do with that I've had some amazing comebacks, not comebacks isn't clap backs, or call outs, but people just go, oh, I messed up. And then they get so much respect from restraint. And just to you know, I remember when there was a big tick tock drama, and you reached out and told me that you had utilized some of my work to just not, and that you were so grateful that you had made the choice to not do something is amazing. And it's like, oh, all I want to see come out of this is like it can be easier than this, like what you guys are doing is daunting, because what perfect dialogue are you expecting to have, where you know exactly what's going to happen, what the other person is going to say, that's also a problem with that sentiment to me, you know, we're gonna be mad, or you know, what we're gonna do? You know, we deal with physical violence and generational fear. I'm not so concerned about being insulted or offended. These aren't words that we're focused on.

  Yeah, that was the part that really sort of, like shook me out of that moment was that and I get it, like social rejection, even perceived, like our nervous system that hits hard, it can feel sometimes like the same thing as physical danger, because that's how desperate we are, you know, that's how much worth at stake for us. But the reality is, is that if a white person mistakes, your intentions in real life, that can can and does lead to violence, right? You could be jogging through a neighborhood, and if a white man mistakes, your intentions, decides they don't like you, that leads to violence. And for me, if I do something, and a black person mistakes, my intentions, I'm gonna be fine. Maybe they don't like me, but like, Okay, I don't think that's

  a stretch, you know, we don't know you're on the internet, is it? We don't know, you. And I think some of that is, you know, check the self importance there. You know, black people are trying to live and survive and get through generational trauma. And we're finally able to speak our minds. Without that fear of physical harm happening the moment we speak. And that's why you see so many amazing conversations happening. If you're listening to Black Tech Talk, not because they haven't been had before, it's just that the voices have been silenced. So, you know, we throw things out there. We're not concerned about perfectionism in our conversation. And I am not concerned with perfectionism because I'm like, Who knows when they're going to shut this down and stop listening. I need to get this information out there. And if you think about the intentions of black people, when they speak, which never happens, you will find that it's actually not that hard to listen and move forward from there. But I feel like the intention conversation happens after an offence or wrongdoing has already been pointed out. Now we want to talk about intention, but what about my intention on making the video that you got upset about, you know, why did I do that? And no one I don't see that in those who get upset. You know, I see that obviously from those who are doing the work, but

  Well, in that moment, like I felt as though like I had spoken to her privately we had had a conversation about like, I bungled this how can I make this right? And so she and I had already had that conversation, and the leftover Panic was just my image, my PR like all of these people in the comment section, where I was wanting to prove myself I I was wanting to defend myself I was wanting to say like, no, here's how you're wrong, you think I am an A. And that's where like that tick tock, you may and I think even messaged you about that. So I was like, this just saved my life. Because I was able to take a beat, and just learn to tolerate that it felt bad that these people and I want to say theoretical, they're not here, but there are literal people, but they're also like, not people I know that like, affect my life in any way. So it's just like the idea that theoretically, a black person could think that I was racist. It was like causing me genuine panic. And I think the most eye opening thing in my journey of going through that cohort and of listening to creators, like you was realizing in any moment, like my clarifying question was like, okay, am I concerned about how to actually impact like black liberation for good? Or am I concerned about being liked and approved of by black people?

  Right, by every black person? Because you have you have it like you admittedly had black people on your side. And I want you to consider that a lot of those black people that were not happy with you, or an actual black people. So I know we talked about they are people, but I find a lot of they know how afraid white people are of messing up and having a black person not like them. So often, I will have people come into my comments and start a phrase with as a black woman, I don't agree with you. And got to tell you, that gives you a way right there. We don't walk into the room and announce our race and gender because it's there in front of you every single day. How we speak, is what tells you that but I often have digital blackface happening in my comments, to shut maybe other white people down who are coming to my aid or trying to explain though, throw in a I'm black at the end. Yeah, then you know, cannot capitalize the B and then make, you know, never the math doesn't math. But I know that it does silence people. So there's that too.

  Well, it's so true, because the woman who had made the original comment was a light skinned mixed woman. But like even she didn't feel the need to say I'm black. Right? And this bothered me, right? Which was where you know, right? Like, you do not qualify at all people, you'd think that she would feel like she had to qualify yourself. And she's like, No, I'm black. I'm mixed. And she identified as mixed. But she also talked about being black, which is why I'm using them interchangeably. But so that's just interesting to reflect back on that show. Like, I'm talking about myself.

  It's one of those funny things. I remember in the beginning, I said, You know what's funny, I realized that white women walk into the comment section announcing themselves all the time, it was just like a funny thing to me just like, hey, I'm pale and or I'll come in with, like, a funny description for why I'm a white woman. And this I'm neurodivergent. And this, you know, some qualifier. And that is a sort of like characteristic, I believe of white supremacy now that I can see it in bulk and realize that we never do that. I've never felt the need to start with why you should listen to me. But in whiteness, your category comes first. And it's always

  with our like, white as faces in the profile picture to like, I didn't need the descriptor, Sally.

  I know, for so many other reasons in the beginning of your sentence, you know, I know what you sound like, I know the talking points, I see the picture. I mean, what you're going to speak to is probably going to let me know you're not going to use a v you know African American Vernacular English. Oh, and the way we're gonna get into that the literal understanding of black languages is another thing we could work on in comment sections. But that's for later times.

  I have this like line and I've never actually said it to anybody, because I'm not sure how appropriate it is. But it's, I think it in my head, especially when like because I've seen someone say something that is racist, and maybe to them they wouldn't recognize it as racist. Like, they would recognize it as like, oh, maybe it's a microburst, like no, it's just all racism. And when they're called out, and someone uses a she her pronoun, they'll get really angry about like, I'm actually not she her, like, either they'll say I am a man or I don't use those pronouns, or my favorite is like, why would you assume I'm a woman? And you know what I say in my head, and you can tell me, like she just say someone I always want to be like, I mean, white woman is as white woman does exactly. Like, I don't care if you're actually a woman or a man or white or whatever. Like I'm just saying,

  because no one identifies as white once they're pointed out as white. And the other thing is, I'll just be talking to someone and say, Hey, you're wrong, and they'll say, Why do you assume I'm white? Okay, I didn't mind. You know, it's not even a thing, right? Like, no one's technically white. So the moment you get called out and you say, I'm not this, it's like, okay, well, you're white enough for me. Okay. You could be black and be white enough for me because the conversation is is about white supremacy and white supremacist behavior to me, not about people, individuals, or you know what you're about, I can't take the time and focus that much on individuals, I'll never get anywhere, I have to focus on behaviors, especially if I see them over and over and over again, I don't need to know much about you to address this talking point, that there's always this special,

  I want to talk a little bit about white supremacy. But I want let's take a pause real quick. And we'll be right back. Perfect. Okay, we're back. And when we talk about that term, white supremacy, I feel like I can like hear my white listeners like their little toes curl. Because a lot of us were really taught growing up to believe that white supremacy is believing consciously that black people are inferior to white people, that white people should sort of rule that it should be this like very Hitler asked, like white Aryan society, with our little pointy cloak hats and burning crosses. And it has been very eye opening to me to talk about white supremacy as something more than that. So do you have like a working definition that you use with white people about what it means when we talk about white supremacy?

  Hmm, I do not have a working definition. And I also don't have a cute analogy for it yet? Well, I guess I do, I will, in a basic sense, I like to formulate it around the behavior I'm trying to address. So white supremacy is foundational to the conversation we're trying to have. If you're interested in reading the book cast by Isabel Wilkerson, I suggest reading from black people that are alive today. One, and she is and it's to understand it as a system, a caste system so really don't even have to discuss race or racism, if you discuss it as a caste. It we saw a caste systems see them in India, and we see them in Nazi Germany, and here in America. And she reviews the three as systems that you can see, as a set of behaviors, laws that were put in place based on this specific caste system for us was white male property ownership. Based on those three things, we will now formulate the rules in order to dictate behaviors that will continue this value system. If that makes sense. I like to envision it as a pyramid. And the bottom is just like white supremacy. And then our laws and our institutions are created based off of that, so that we make sure our education system is based off of that our financial institution, our healthcare system, everything comes with the assumption that the white men that created it, that their characteristics, and what they saw as important is across the board.

  That's like the most powerful definition I've ever heard, honestly, which is impressive for starting out with I have no definition.

  This is usually how I just kind of we get there.

  I know. But no, you're right, because it's this idea that it's a value system. And that. And I think about that sometimes when people talk about the Constitution, when they'll like some argument about whether or not we should do something in our country, we'll be like, well, but that's not what like the Constitution says this. And that's not what they meant, not what they want. And sometimes I just want to be like, what if it's just like,

  it was a bunch of dudes in a room just because they wore different clothes and had white curled up hair that didn't make them special. And I think we have, you know, made them this mystical dudes. And if they were in button downs and khaki pants, would you see that constitution as some magical piece of paper that they had more information than we have?

  Like if Elon Musk and Bill Gates, and like George Bush and Jeff Bezos, like walked out of room be like, we have a document? Yes. And this is how we're gonna run everything. And I mean, listen, I think that there are parts of the Constitution that are inspirational and beautiful, but it's not like they intended that to apply to anyone but them,

  right, it's, and then set up all the law is based off of that, and the small number and the size of that triangle. Yeah, it can grow, but it can't really change. It's just gonna get like, taller and fewer. And because it's based on this static, nonsensical, imagination based value system. It's not based on what

  is perfectionism. Like, when I first started sort of learning about racism, and being willing to believe that I had unconscious racist beliefs, one of the things that I realized was causing that like now I'm too afraid to make mistakes. Now, I don't want to say anything to anybody. Because what if I make mistakes and I don't want people to not like me. And it was pointed out to me like that level of perfectionism that you think if you can't be right, you're going to be cast aside and rejected and that Will Make You worthless. And so you're clinging to it like that is a value of white supremacy.

  Yes, you will never achieve that. That is a trend. Not

  every culture has that value, right? Sometimes just

  making it, just figuring it out. And what does that look like for you? Who are you the system? You know, I thought about the phrase, there's no I in team. Why do we like that? I am important, okay. In a team, if there's no if we're just doing whatever we're told to do, you have no opinion that is valuable. And it's just not true if you hadn't decided to make a tic toc. And I hadn't decided to make a tic toc. Because you know what? Might as well, and to expect perfectionism, we will never move. I would never put out anything, you wouldn't ever put out anything. And we just stay quiet. sounds gross. sounds gross. I don't want that

  my first tech talks were me being like, this is how you cook chicken. And then the conversation would be like, That's not how you cook chicken. And I'd be like, just kidding. Here's another way to cook chicken. Like I just, I genuinely started doing how to one being like, I'm just making this up. Like, this is what I think I know. And it's funny.

  Once you realize, if you can't do it, like there's no Oh, I like to say there's no destination. So people look at it as like, I'll get to this place. Like how do you get comfortable talking about this? When do you finish where now you're like, I'm good. And that's just not how life should be because there is no destination, anywhere. It should be about the journey. And it should be about making those mistakes and then highlighting those mistakes. This would not be an impactful demonstration of anti racism if you didn't say I did this, and then I did this instead. And now I feel better. If you just went in with how do i i wouldn't be able to really work with that. Because you are a part of it. Everybody is can I tell

  you a totally tangential joke, please do. So when the Little Mermaid like preview came out and I hadn't seen it yet. And they were talking about the like Little Mermaid being black. And for like a hot couple of weeks. I thought we were talking about Halle Berry.

  Well, okay, that's reasonable because itself but here's

  what sounds exactly like, but what's funny to me is like when I realized it wasn't the same person my first thought was like, Casey, like, you need to get real serious about your anti racism work like not every black person is the same just because it seems like God, like see black people as people. And then like, but so I was like kind of being very somber with myself about like, let's look at ourselves. And then I realized that like, I also thought that like Josh Groban and Josh Brolin were the same person. Yeah,

  I mean, give her that everything that's serious.

  And I just recently found out that the lead singer of Florence in the machine did not star in a movie with Harry Styles. Oh, that is in fact, not the same person. Even though her name is Florida. So anyways, I was just laughing at myself, because my initial thought was like, Wow, we got to do some work. Like

  no, just stupid. No, just stupid. Not this one. But I liked it. You're out here. I like you're on the lookout.

  I showed up to the game. There may not have been a game that day. But I was in my uniform. I was ready. Close. It was close when it was close. Okay, okay, we're gonna do the same thing. We did the last podcast, which is Chuck, I have actual questions here. Okay, let's go. One of the things that I loved learning about you was your experience of your own racial identity growing up, so can you tell us about your mom and your dad?

  I can. So my mom is Jewish from Brooklyn. And my father is Jamaican, who also moved to Brooklyn, but was born in Jamaica came here when he was 15. And they somehow found each other. He also was a Jehovah's Witness growing up, which adds a cute little element of fun. The whole X cult life, and my grandmother died still a part of Jehovah's Witnesses, they live together. That was interesting as well as you know, nice little Jewish kids. We worked it out. So just based off that alone, I kind of was prepared for this non traditional life that I did not realize was so foreign, because I grew up mostly in Teaneck, New Jersey, which was the first town to voluntarily integrate their schools. Very proud of that. I grew up with so many biracial friends just because we were friends not because we were biracial. We just happen to be a black Japanese girl a bunch of I was the only Jewish person that was brown in my Hebrew school, but I was okay with it. I was fine. You know, I did ballet and maybe I was the only Brown Girl No, probably not but one a few and I knew that. I knew I was brown. And I would say Brown. You know, when brown Cinderella came out was brown Cinderella, not black to me when Brandi was Cinderella, but when my brother was born, he was very white looking And I was aware, you know, maybe not when he was first born, but even my father would say, I'd asked him, you know, what if, when we learned about Martin Luther King, what if it goes back and you and I Dad are not allowed in the same places mom and Brandon are. And he told me, I didn't know what to say to you, because he hadn't realized that I had realized. But by that point, I mean, my hair was different. I'm a child, I'm not an alien. And so when we have these conversations about if kids should be learning, it's like, well, they are, you know, they can see, I can see things with my eyeballs. And he just said, you know, that'll never happen. And I was like, okay, good. We're in this new world. We're all good with this multiracial family, it's never gonna go back. And I don't have to worry about

  it. And how did that change? When you entered corporate America in the Midwest?

  Oh, my goodness. Well, you know, and it's, I think, corporate America period is a big shift. And I didn't realize at first, you know, it's like one of those things where in hindsight, it's very clear, I wore my hair straight. If you don't know my hair is very curly. Right now. i It's in its natural state has been since I was 26, though, because the world tells you, as a black woman, what your hair needs to look like, it needs to be fixed and professional. Another one

  of those white supremacy, values, professionalism, not being professional, but what professionalism means what kinds of things are professional,

  it's not what you wear every day. It's not how you look every day. It's how that guy looks every day. And what they naturally do you have to look like it to me, it's if you are living in your black self, and you are you have this rich experience a deep colors, like how I like to think about it, and like blacks in this depth of something. And then you go out into the world and into corporate or into the professional world. And it's pastel white supremacy to me is pastel. Yeah, there may be variations and colors, but you know, it's all pastel, it's got this light tint to it. And that keeps it all even in the same family. So when we show up to work, we have to powder ourselves up to be as pastel as possible. And make sure we do not disrupt that powder, we don't move too fast, we don't take any off because the second you, you know if you can see through that, we get called out on it, and are made to feel as though we don't belong in that place. And we can see through that powder you're wearing and you're not really one of us. And that is exhausting to turn that power down and have to not knowing why. Because your value is based on how pastel you show up is hard for the brain, at least for my brain, because I understood. You know, if you do something, well, it will be reflected as such. And someone will say, Hey, you did a good job on this. You know, you can't get past that. But with professionalism, you can get past that. I can do everything right.

  Yeah, I remember you telling me that you were like kicking butt taking names, you were putting out more measurable like KPI output than everyone else on the team, including the people that were supposed to be your managers.

  Yep. And that was a mistake. That was a mistake. Somehow, I didn't learn the rules of professionalism. I was the first person in my family to go to college and to graduate. And then I went to business school, and I thought I was doing something by you know, wearing my currently natural hair at business school. And I was very proud and forthright about my blackness, and that I am here to change things, but also to do a good job. And to have these conversations. And it does not matter. Because of this little thing that I call pet to threat someone else is going to because it's great to have you on be all black women and look at your hair, and then a little bit of the actual petting and the touching that happened here in Chicago did not happen in New Jersey, that you want to start kind of speaking back on it and making your presence known and being very good at the job. Now you are a threat to those who need to see themselves as higher than you. And I did not know that was going to happen. I thought it would make us all look good. But if you're focused on hierarchy, and you're focused on the fact that you are my manager, and now you can't instruct there to desire to help from white people is what I see in this hierarchical structure. If you're a higher than someone, your role is to help them and I would rather have had support, but because you know, I'm good at what I do. I always have been that's how I got there. And then to show up and have a white man asked me if I'm scared of PowerPoint, or if I know that this email is my canvas. And this is where I can show my skills and write out things. Meanwhile, I just you know, one plus one wasn't equaling two and my brain was not what was truth. I didn't know what truth was anymore. That to the point where it's like I I am doing so much and being treated so little, like such a little thing I was told them this I was very forthright and professional, I brought it to HR with HR language. But none of that matter, just like when we talk about on tick tock, you can put everything right. And at the end of the day, he will say, well, I need to help you understand what I'm trying to tell you. You need to have empathy for me in this situation, because I have kids, and I am working through stuff as well. You know, meanwhile, there's protests, and I'm speaking on behalf of black people at work. So I know this is kind of all over. But you know, there was a pandemic, and I'm doing my job. And I'm also educating white women at this job, which made me realize I could do this work as white woman whisperer. So you know,

  who hid and they asked you to do that. Right? They asked me to do

  it. Yes. They want awards based on what I did. Was I the recipient of that award award? No, they won multiple awards off of my work, but somehow still, but then you weren't a team player, right? I wasn't, you know, maybe a cultural fit. I wasn't spending my time, the way I was supposed to listening and obeying, I guess, rules that did not exist, you know, there was silent treatment, but then also micromanaging at the same time. And he just, there was no right way. And I needed that lesson. But I would rather other black women in the workplace not get the lesson I got in the way that I received it, especially these younger generations, it was terrible.

  So I want to take a pause there. And when we come back, I want to talk about the impact that had on your mental health. Okay, we're back with Rebecca, the white woman whisperer. And I mean, okay, so this is the struggle care podcast, right? Like, my book is how to keep household drowning my tic toc channel, it's really all about how to do life and care for yourself when you have barriers in your life. And so I have a lot of people that follow me that have mental illness, mental health issues, that are neurodivergent that are stressed, that are, you know, maybe they have kids, or they just lost somebody or they're chronically ill.

  So there's like, all these different reasons why, you know, you could be experiencing, like limited capacity or barriers in your life. And one of the things that I've learned from you and other black creators on Tik Tok and like authors, and is that the racism isn't just like some uncomfortable thing you experience that it creates this holistic layer of chronic stress. And so can you talk a bit because you had taken a leave from how much stress that caused? So what did that do to your mental health?

  Well, it wasn't great. I'll tell you that much. It definitely wasn't great. It wasn't a good time. But, you know, I'm just so grateful that during that time, I had my boyfriend, who is black and very educated in the black experience. From a generational information standpoint, he came from the south, and went to an HBCU, a historically black college university. And when I was on the brink, I had someone to say, No, this isn't about you. Because I was so sure that I was doing something wrong. Even though I would stay up, I would hyperventilate before work, because as you know, knowing I had to talk to them, I said, in my head, there was something I there was a correct phrase that I had to say, to get them to understand, you know, because it was not just my manager, it was his manager, and the communications between them and the gaslighting of, you know, I get your side, I get his side. And so then I, you know, trying to figure out how to make two people think something is not possible. One, I found out through a lot of therapy, and I'm still in therapy over it, because there's, we are taught that good work, should receive good things, at least I was, and maybe in terms of my neurodivergent. See, I've relied on that. I relied on the fact that regardless of race, regardless of gender, you do the right thing. People can't ignore that. Because it's right.

  KC 34:15

  You work hard, you

  Rebecca 34:16

  raise up the ladder, right? You pull yourself up, all you got to do and I saw another aspect of this was, you know, I would go to many people who said they supported me at this job that won awards based off of me, I would talk to them, what am I doing? What can I do? A lot of white women mostly because that's what I connected with that work. And there weren't many other well, there weren't many of the black people. But if there were, it's kind of like, you know, just stick it out. What did you expect type of thing and I didn't work well with that. But it was always framed as what I could do. You know, if I would go to the VP of HR and say, Hey, this is happening. The response was okay, how can we get you out from under him? As in What job do you need to do? Like, what job can you apply for within the company that gets you out? And it can't make him look back? And you can't burn that bridge. But you also how are you going to framework for the conversations with him moving forward, because you do need his recommendation to get this job. But you are amazing, you cannot leave. We are so happy to have you, you are changed so much. No one said, I'm gonna go talk to that man. No one gave me a way out. There was a lot of victim blaming, if you do that, but so I started not trusting myself, I'm not seeing it. from a higher perspective. I'm just seeing, I'm crying in front of so many people as a black woman. And I'm thinking one of these conversations it's gonna hit. And that's tough.

  KC Davis 35:40

  I mean, it really says it. As a therapist, it sounds so similar to when I have counseled families that have like abusive dynamics, where like, the man is really abusive. And the child is constantly being given this burden of Well, here's how you can navigate his anger so that you stay safe. And the wife is often like the nice white lady who's like, I get it. I know it's wrong. I'm so sorry. Right, but they won't leave him and take you with them. Right? They won't stand up to them. And they're similar products, like different but similar reasons where it's like, oh, I can put my own oppression on the line.

  Rebecca 36:22

  I mean, I'm thinking you don't you want to know if this person is being disrespectful to me and demeaning me just to make a point. And I'm telling him, and he's pretending to write things down. And then he lies and says, I called this meeting to HR when I did, and the HR person is on there, not correcting him, listening to him, gaslight me the whole time, and then claim that I'm not understanding him correctly. And I didn't know gaslighting. I just got out here to Chicago, I moved for this job. I have no family out here. They do the love bombing. So they give you all the stuff in the beginning, I interned first under black leadership with black HR, black everything and was bait and switched a week after moving to Chicago, in my opinion, reorg, whatever. And it's this is my financial livability. And as a black person who was the first one to come out of college, it's like this was success. This was supposed to be the spot I got into, I moved, I got this corporate job making almost six figures or you know, and finally, the immigrant's daughter makes it and but somehow I'm feeling like teeny, tiny, but also blown up and so powerful and impactful. And I'm being praised all the time, but also being diminished and made to question my own sense of self during George Floyd protests, where my company talked about looting and rioting. And I just watched this man at all times a day be nailed on. And I'm connecting dots and things that happened to me and to my brother who doesn't even look very black. But he has a gun pointed in his face across the street from my own house in Teaneck, this beautiful little community. So to put all of that, and then realize what was happening within my own job and how I was questioning myself. And then at the same time, get this data that said, you were blowing the numbers away, like you were serving your customers. They had been looking for you specifically to teach though. And these men not seeing me. Something just snapped.

  KC Davis 38:32

  Is that what get out was about Ooh, like you were describing that and all of a sudden I was realizing like that feeling of like we're in it together and then like this, like I heard like scary museum movie music when it was like dawning on you like, oh, shit, like the call is coming from inside the house. Like these things that have been happening to me and these people that say they love me, but all of a sudden they're talking about looting and rioting like what you're like, Oh, God, yeah,

  Rebecca 38:58

  this is against Wait, I'm working for oh, and they were telling, you know, it was coming to the office. This is you know, we got scientists and the DEI strategy, you know, there was a lot more things in terms of hair touching and stuff that you know, was just coming back to me, and how do you still have trouble processing it interesting. And I'm still in therapy and I have not gone back to that job. And you know, realizing what is for me, I've never thought about it. I've just been trying to survive this whole time. And that's what black people have been taught and trained to do is just up until this point is to survive especially like I think our generation and my dad's was kind of like don't like get there get there and then worry about but I got there was terrible. And I

  KC Davis 39:46

  can imagine like not only first of all I love that your boyfriend like was the one to gaslight you and like bring you back to that that's so huge. And but not only are you experiencing this like extreme like racial gaslighting, racism, racial discrimination and then everyone gaslighting you about it at work. But then like I see you talk about racism online, and I see the comment section just line up with white people going. That's not real. That doesn't happen. We aren't like that the world's not really like that. And it's just like gaslight upon gaslight.

  Rebecca 40:21

  Yeah. So imagine you are sorry, already thinking that like when I was thinking, thinking, How do I explain this to someone and explain to them that it's racist, but really it's just him questioning me at every turn and then deciding it's not right and giving himself credit for things he adds to my work, and then giving the credit to me as if he's doing me a favor. Oh, nice. Nice job adding that sticker on the bottom that he added interest? Did you see how I gave you that? I threw that at you? And I little? How do I convey that to this third party woman? Who is already looking for it not to be true? And do I just list every event? Do I show these? I mean, I have so many emails. This is please show your creativity. But if when you do at this at this at this, and my coworker is texting me on the side? We don't know why he's doing this. I'm so sorry. You have to Can I help you? You could talk to him. But I didn't even think that, you know, I'm just thinking, Oh, well, that's validation.

  KC Davis 41:20

  Well, all the while you knowing and frankly, like, you know, the word intersectional gets thrown around a lot to mean a lot of different things. But like, originally, it was specifically about the legal context of a black woman being discriminated against at a job. And but the problem is, is that like legally, like black woman is not a category unto itself, right. And so she either had to prove she was being discriminated against as a woman, or she was being discriminated against as a black person. And there was no way to nail that down, because the job would go, Well, we have other black people, because they had they had black men there that weren't being treated that way. And they could go, Well, we have women here that aren't being treated that way. And she was like, No, I know, it's the specific intersection of being black and being a woman that my job is discriminating against. And it's like when people are telling you like, I don't know why he's doing that to you. Was there a party? It was like

  Rebecca 42:14

  I do. It's a power thing. And I think I couldn't even admit to myself, like, it's just as plainly as I do is because I'm black. Because God forbid, you know, even saying that out loud. At the time, the fear of having someone negate that someone I was giving me a little bit of validation. Having them go well, I mean, because I had people on my team when I would tell them about because, of course, you know, after George Floyd happened, my director calls and asks me how to talk to the team about what is going on. And I tell them about, you know, touching my hair and how it's rooted in, you know, people being in zoos, and people, you know, being entitled to the black body. And even when they don't realize I will tell them a story about how this happened, and how it made me feel, and afterwards touch my hair, to acknowledge how pretty it is. As if they are not doing the thing I just talked about, I am not even kidding. I had two people, my black director, we were talking about how his dog walker touched my hair before she even knew my name, and how it was crazy. And then the two women hearing it said, Oh, wow, that is nuts. But you do have gorgeous hair, and touched each side of my head. And my director looked at me, we made big eye contact. And that was it. And we talked about it all the time. But that's how insidious it is. And how to then have someone questioned something that I'm struggling to come to terms with already. And it's someone I like, and I'm like losing white women, left and right.

  KC Davis 43:39

  And I've seen the white women in your comments talk about like, but it wasn't because of race, they didn't touch your hair because of race. It's because it's so different. It's because it's beautiful. It's because of that. But the part of that story that really sticks out to me is you and your manager locking eyes because you know, because this has been happening to you your whole life, because you have been experiencing this your whole like, you know why it's happening.

  Rebecca 44:05

  It's deep, like we know immediately and without words, and then we will leave and then be like, Oh my gosh, you know, there is these conversations are happening. And what I like to say on my page every once in a while is like I'm giving you information. We these are not nude conversations for us. We have just always have to have these conversations in silence and you didn't secret away from you because of the reactivity. I don't know if that's helpful. I don't think it's done. It's very good. And you know, the concept when we started, you know, white supremacy, the words saying the words it's like, but for who, who's uncomfortable at hearing the words, white supremacy. It's not us. You know, who's going to be uncomfortable at hearing the N word, which I don't love that we turned it into just another word so that people can say without saying it, say it if you want to say you're just not there consequences, you know, this whole not allowed business is very white supremacy, because we'll be perceived negatively You're allowed to do whatever you want, you know what, who was not allowed? The BlackBerry will we were literally not allowed to read or write. So yeah, no perspective, zoom out every once in a while and think why, who's uncomfortable and why.

  KC Davis 45:13

  So you're on your channel, your experience, I feel like has led to first of all, I love your brain, because you come up with like the best metaphors. So you talked about, like, the volatility. So like, oh, you bring up to someone like, hey, it's because of racism. They're like, what? No, I'm not racist. That's not right. And it's like this white volatility, and which is, I think what most people are referring to we talk about white fragility. And so tell us your metaphor for white fragility, or white privilege.

  Rebecca 45:43

  So I like to start with white privilege being a booger, just pretend someone points out to our white privilege that it's a booger, how are you going to feel if they yell at you? Right? If I go, Hey, stupid, you've got a booger in your nose. And everyone here can see it. Now, that might hurt a little. But now you get to take care of that. And we get to stop staring at you. And you're aware of information that everybody else has. Now you just say thank you, and you wipe it away. Often, no one's gonna scream that at you. But except information, appreciate it. And then just keep going because you will be okay. Now, the other aspect of privilege that I think is a little bit more insidious and violent, it comes around what I was considered the pinata of white supremacy. So like the goals of white supremacy, being rich and white, and thin and Young is this pinata up there. And we're trying to take it down. You know what white women are now like, we got a smash it give us bats, but you're not adept. You just got here. And there's a lot of, you know, Poles and levees in there that's going to go on, and we're just trying to tell you like, hey, excuse me, that's not how you do it. And oftentimes, you turn around because you're covered by that privilege that like that blindness, you have the blindfold, and you have white privilege, and you smack the black woman next to you thinking you're doing something and you're not good. We're trying to help. We don't talk to you because we want to be mean and have sentience. We've got other things to do, like take care of our lives and make sure we can eat when we're talking to white women about white privilege or anything. It's for our own survival and for yours. So if we're telling you, hey, you're not doing it, right, listen, maybe just and not ask for instructions, know that you have a blindfold on. So you need to stop swinging, put the bat down and give it to the people who have been here longer. Let black women tell you one, we don't even want that vignette. If we could just stop swinging at the piano and just go play our own game over there and let them just pull out that thing. They'll get bored. Eventually, they'll just be pulling at the piano. No one will be swinging. And we'll go play good, nice game without that's one where we don't have to smash things or something maybe based on humanity and like sharing resources. I don't know.

  KC Davis 48:03

  I feel like that's like it needs to be like an SNL skit skit. It's so good and visual,

  Rebecca 48:09

  and people added such good things to it, too.

  KC Davis 48:11

  I wish we had so much more time because I feel like we could keep talking. But I don't want to go too far over our time without giving you the chance to plug your podcast and your social channels. Where can people find you if they want to come and learn

  Rebecca 48:23

  so you can find me at White woman whisperer.com There are links to like everything else. So it's a nice one stop shop. I've mostly post right now on Tik Tok and I am out I have a couple episodes of my podcast out which I'm very excited about, which is on everywhere. Podcasts are included in my website. So you know, we're figuring it out trying to grow up our community, definitely consider joining my Patreon. I'm aiming for social capital, or over financial capital trying to start a new model where you know, the people speak and not one guy with a lot of gross paper that has touched

  KC Davis 48:57

  a lot of ham. And is your podcast white woman whisperer? Is that the title that

  Rebecca 49:00

  is white women whisperer, the podcast. I tried to keep very consistent.

  KC Davis 49:05

  I like that. It's everywhere. Awesome. Well, Rebecca, thank you so much for your time and thank you for having me. I just am I grateful that you're in my life. This is awesome. I can't wait to do it again. Bye bye.

Technology can be challenging for those with ADHD, and I’ll admit that I’ve struggled at times in this area. If you are someone who responds better to tactile and visual learning, you can probably relate. There are many tools and hacks available to help with executive functioning issues, and I’m excited to learn more in today’s show. I’m joined by technology expert Kat Hunt, who is raising a neurodivergent daughter. Let’s learn more about technological aids that can be helpful for ADHD. Join us!

Show Highlights:

• Three specific areas in which neurodivergent struggle and technologies that can help:

• Time blindness

• Solutions: Apps like Calendly, Artful Agenda, and Taskly

• Data loss/overwhelm

• Solution: Migrating events/tasks into Google Calendar

• Dopamine-seeking or dopamine-resisting behaviors

• Solution: Forest app

• Why mobile access to these tools is preferable over a physical tool, especially for those who travel or move from home to office frequently

• How Kat uses Alexa technology to her advantage in time management with her family and at her office

• How the Due app forces you to pay attention to notifications for events and tasks

• How parents can use Alexa features with neurodivergent kids to increase independence and self-efficacy while still having parental structure in place

Resources and Links:

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. I am KC Davis. Welcome to Struggle Care. We're going to talk today with cat hunt about technological, not, I guess, AI solutions, but technology aids when it comes to having ADHD, when I'm particularly interested in this subject, because I feel like I've tried out a few. And I have a difficult time with technology anyways, because I always feel like everything needs to be like tactile and visual around me. So I'm interested to hear a little bit more about what could be useful to the ADHD person when it comes to technology. Yeah,

  Kat Hunt 0:43

  So I am a little bit opposite, I work in a tech industry. So it's been kind of in my wheelhouse for a long time. But a lot of the solutions that I've been discovering recently, are very user friendly. And I kind of honed in on three particular kind of symptoms that people with ADHD or other executive functioning disorders or challenges, kind of grapple with. And I've identified what these technologies do that helps those three specific areas in my life that I think for other people as well, it could be a solution.

  KC Davis 1:19

  That's wonderful. Okay, hit me with the first one. So

  Kat Hunt 1:23

  one of the first big ones is time blindness, where you either underestimate how much time you need for something, or you exert a disproportionate amount of time to something that you're hyper fixating on. So for example, one solution that I use Calendly, I can actually build in buffers, for my appointments and things. So I don't have to worry about going over into another appointment or other obligation. And it also gives me a little bit of breathing room because it sometimes can be hard to pivot from one activity to the other. So having like 30 minutes or 45 minutes, to decompress after an appointment and start into the next activity can be very helpful. And with a software solution like that, I don't have to think about it, it is built into my schedule automatically, without me having to spend a lot of cognitive energy trying to calculate that with every individual appointment, it just happens automatically. So this

  KC Davis 2:26

  is something I totally think that I should do. Because I use acuity which is like a similar one, where I block off times and do this at the other end, I actually saw at one point where it asked me like how much time to put in between appointments. And I just didn't click anything because at the time, I was like, oh, pack it in, right. But here's the thing, you're so right, not only on the back end, but like the amount of times where I've gotten sidetracked and started something late. So it pushes it beyond. And I take ADHD meds in the morning. And so when I get several hours of this, like really intense motivation. And I find that during that time, I'm less likely to be tuned in to what my body needs. So whether it's going to the bathroom, getting a drink of water, eating something. And I have definitely found that like times when I have like back to back to back to back meetings or appointments, I'm not leaving myself any time in between. To do that, well, then we say that there is enough time to do something in between, there's not enough time for my brain to decompress from that meeting, to the point where it can start to actually hear the messages my body is sending.

  Kat Hunt 3:43

  Exactly, definitely some other kinds of solutions to that as well. I know I'm not sure if other people do well, I'm sure some people do. But I will have lots of tasks on my to do list. And I never have enough time to necessarily get to all of them. So some software solutions, I particularly use something called artful agenda. There's probably others that do this, I think task li does this too. It will migrate tasks that are undone. At the end of the day, to the next day. Again, it's automatic, I don't have to exert cognitive energy to think about it. It's just Oh, she did not finish that she didn't check it off. Let's move it to the next day. Sometimes I might reschedule it for a day later in the future. But I don't often identify that the day of it's the next day that I look at the tasks again and say oh, I need to push this out a little bit further. So that keeping track of that data, which was kind of my next problem, data loss and data overwhelm, kind of keeps all of that together without me having to exert extra mental energy for it.

  KC Davis 4:50

  And is it putting it on your calendar or is it putting it on just like another day's to do list?

  Kat Hunt 4:56

  So this particular software solution is interesting. I I put in my Google calendar, which my Google calendar if you saw, it would be absolutely insane, because there's my calendar. But there's also calendars that I have to have an awareness of, and not necessarily directly related to me. But if I'm a manager, I'm in a kind of a managerial role. So like I'm having to coordinate, well, I migrate my personal things into this other software. So that pops up on a monthly, weekly and daily spread, I don't have to copy it, it does it again automatically. And then it has in that software task areas, it kind of looks like a paper planner, this particular solution, but it's not. So rather than trying to write things from one page to the next to migrate it, it just automatically does it.

  KC Davis 5:49

  That's great. Okay, hit me with the next one.

  Kat Hunt 5:52

  So the third problem is the problem of dopamine. So ADHD, individuals in particular, but a lot of different people who have other neuro divergence have dopamine seeking behavior, or dopamine resistant behavior, in my case is dopamine seeking. And if things are under stimulating to me, I won't keep up with them. And it's not only that, I won't keep up with them. In some cases, it can be actually painful to engage in something that is not stimulating. So the act of going to a calendar and writing down your agenda in a planner, for example, this is a very tedious kind of task. So by eliminating that, and automating it, it gets done in an efficient way, that's not painful to me, or doesn't get shoved under the rug. Other solutions, kind of with time management, there's one program I use called forests, where it will actually grow a tree for every 25 minutes, you're working on something, it's a virtual tree, you can create a little forest.

  KC Davis 7:06

  So I'm not kidding when I say that, like of everything you've said, that one has blown my mind the most. Because, you know, I found myself playing. So I play love and pies, which is a mobile game that I'm kind of obsessed with. But I play it all the time. And one of the things that I find myself thinking about, like, as I'm playing it, because it's one of those games where you know, you have like a certain amount of energy. And as the energy goes down, then you gotta like, wait a few minutes and get more energy. But one of the things that I find myself thinking is like this, you know, I'm like merging strawberries to make a pie. And it's like, this pie doesn't exist. I don't know why my brain feels so satisfied by this completion. I remember thinking, like, I wish there was like a game, where in order to get more energy, I had to go to like, do some sort of care task, like and then it could magically know that I went and like, did my dishes. And I'd come back to all of this energy tokens, and I could keep going. Because you're right, there is something really satisfying about just that, like it's moving towards something, it's doing something it's not, I'm not just like doing things in the abyss. And I can 100% see myself, like working extra on something because I'm like, Well, I'm seven minutes away from the next tree, or whatever it is.

  Kat Hunt 8:26

  Yeah, actually, you know, if I don't do it as regularly yet to create, like a whole forest, but I have had days where I have some super tedious work, where I'll have multiple trees, and it's really quite satisfying to look at a whole forest of what you've done. So you could apply that to any number of things. But it also keeps things again, kind of talking about trying to manage your energy levels, you don't often recognize when you're approaching the end of your energy level, by breaking it into 25 minute increments. If it's something I'm really engaged in, it has the opposite effect, oh, I've worked on this one thing for, you know, an hour and a half, maybe I should step back from it and take a break or switch to something else.

  KC Davis 9:12

  It's great, because like the passage of time related, that timeline is like it really is difficult. And whenever I talk about solutions with like timers and things, I find that there's always two kinds of people that are really drawn to that. And the first are people that they don't want to start. But if they can visually see like, oh, it's only going to be this amount of time. It's like okay, I can keep going there's only a little bit left. But then the other people are people who are like once I start I just forget the world and all of a sudden hours later I'm still doing this and I've missed all these things. And so that visual passage of time is really important. But I found that like so my go to is always the like the visual timer right where you turn the dial and it colors the time in like a color so like red, blue, purple, but that's what really only helpful for me when I need to visualize how much time has passed coming to a specific stop point. So I only want to do 15 minutes. But like you're saying, if the issue is the opposite, where it's like, I can work on this as long as I want to it's open ended. But I do need to be aware how much time I'm spending on it, I need to see the passage of time to be better tuned in to how much time you know, I'm taking away from what other things I might need to do that day.

  Kat Hunt 10:32

  Absolutely. It For Me, I've seen those physical timers, I think those are really neat. One of the big things about all of the solutions I use is its mobile access. And that's something that I very rarely forget a planner, I always forget it at the house, I forget at the office, it's never where I need it to be. tools that are physical like that will get left in a bag. And when I switch bags, it's not with me anymore. For my particular profession, I travel a lot, I'm on the go a lot. So having everything in a handheld device is really helpful for me too, because I can use it anywhere. So that

  KC Davis 11:08

  I totally get that because my number one like and I guess you could call it technology. Okay, so we're talking about the passage of time, right? Okay, so this is a timer cube. And it's basically like this little cube, it's like the size of my palm. And you can get them with different increments of time, right. So mine is the one that has five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, just around the site. So when I put the time that I want facing up, it starts a timer for that amount of time. So cool. So this is really helpful, very satisfied.

  Yeah, sorry, just scratch my chair. It's really helpful when I'm at home, because I was like setting a timer on my phone. But then I'm picking up my phone and I'm getting distracted by the things on my phone. This is really helpful. And the way that I finally like cracked the code of the best way for me to use it is like, let's say that I have a meeting and 30 minutes. So what I used to do was say, okay, great, put the 30 minutes up. But then it would go off. And I'd be like, oh gosh, oh gosh, I might be right in the middle of something. And I'd be like, well, let me just wrap this one thing up. And then it'd be 10 minutes later, and I'd be late to the meeting. So what I found was, the best way to actually do it is if I have 30 minutes until I have to be at a meeting, I do the 20 minutes instead. So that when it goes off it orient me to the time, and I go, okay, so I need to spend about five more minutes wrapping this up. So then I'll click the five minute one over, and then I'll focus on wrapping something up so that when that timer goes off, I'm done. And I still have five minutes to like prepare or pull up the screen or get on the phone or whatever for the next thing. And when I finally figured out that that's what I needed, like I needed the to not just be told when to stop, right? Like we don't just need a timer. We truly need tools that orient us to the passage of time as we are doing something, which is what I love about like the forest one, what's it called, again,

  Kat Hunt 13:13

  it's called forest. And I think it's actually a lot of these are free or very cheap. I think forest is free for most functions. And you'll like this as well. I don't take advantage of this because I can't be disconnected completely in most cases. But it will actually block out all of your apps and notifications if you ask it to. Oh, so the phone becoming its own distraction can sometimes be mediated that way. For some folks, again, I can only do that to a certain degree,

  KC Davis 13:50

  people who work I do. Okay, I'm gonna check out the forest app. Let's pause for just a second to hear a word from our sponsor. And when we come back, I want to ask you about Alexa, because I heard your Alexa going off and I have some questions. Okay. Okay, I want to talk about Alexa because I have one and I don't know like how much you use your Alexa but I feel like I'm not using it to its potential. Because other ADHD people talk about these, like really creative things they're doing with their Alexa and I don't do anything with mine except like the timer when I'm cooking.

  Kat Hunt 14:21

  So I actually discovered Alexa first for my daughter years ago and she actually is on the autism spectrum. So shifting tasks for her is very challenging for different reasons and in different ways. So for us we started using it was just kind of a speaker to play music. You know, we got on some freebie or bonus or something. I would tell Alexa to give my daughter cues that in 30 minutes she was going to have to start shifting gears into something else or in 10 minutes and sometimes depending on how how difficult it was for her for certain tasks, we might do a couple of those, you know, 30 minutes, 10 minutes, five minutes. So it really started as a tool for her. I don't use it in the house very much personally. But what I use it for is the office more. So in a lot of what you were just saying about how you'll use your cube to give you some buffer to orient your time. Alexa does that for me in my office, when I'm here, she'll I call her Ziggy, because I'm a big David Bowie fan. And that's one of the options but I've got my calendar plugged into her. And she will say in 30 minutes, you have an interview with Casey Davis.

  KC Davis 15:42

  So that only you have her plugged into your calendar. Yeah, so

  Kat Hunt 15:46

  my virtual calendar feeds into her. And she will remind me in an increment that I set of appointments that are coming up,

  KC Davis 15:56

  that is helpful, because I get the push notifications on my phone. But I can't tell you the amount of times that like you're doing something and it comes down, you're like you like swipe it away, or you don't see it, I had no idea that you could actually connect so that the notifications are coming through Alexa,

  Kat Hunt 16:14

  exactly. You can do Apple calendar or Google Calendar, which Google calendar can feed into Apple calendar, which I have an Apple Watch. So I do that Google Calendar is where I have my foundation, because it goes everywhere on any device pretty much. And then it can feed digitally into a variety of different devices, depending on what I use them for another app that is good for that it's not on Alexa specifically, but do will harass you about reminders until you acknowledge them. That was actually on an ADH forum on Facebook. I can't remember which one but someone suggested it. And I tried it. So things that are really critical. I will do that. So I don't do the swipe up and forget that data loss that I mentioned earlier. That's a big one for me. So it'll remind me again, do due

  KC Davis 17:08

  Do you e Okay, so how does that work? So like let's say I need to feed my cats.

  Kat Hunt 17:12

  So I do have a couple of reoccurring ones. For my mids, I'll you know I take my meds a little bit later in the morning because I have to stay up later for work and family obligations. So I have a reminder on a cycle and it will harass me every five or 10 minutes until I acknowledge it. And even with non like repeating tasks. By just having awareness of it, I can say, Oh, I can't do that right now because of this important thing that got in the way. But let me reschedule it to a time I think I can. So it doesn't get lost, I'm not losing the data. It's bringing attention to it and I just reschedule it. Or I say okay, I need to go ahead and do it like it's harass me three times at this point, I need to I need to get that done. So that's very helpful, too. I wish I could connect Alexa and do but they haven't figured out that link yet.

  KC Davis 18:08

  So how is do different than Alexa just like setting a timer and alerting you to something

  Kat Hunt 18:14

  that harassing feature the inability to get rid of the notification without either rescheduling it or deleting it, it will just keep there's no easy way to snooze it, it will just keep going in increments that you set. So you could say, you know, remind me every five minutes, they have a new feature now to where it's urgent, where it won't even let you get rid of it at all. It's like this is really, really important. I haven't used that feature yet. Because I haven't had anything that's like that critical. But it just continues to remind you until you either reschedule it, or delete it or do it. Because it's the ideal thing. Do you

  KC Davis 18:51

  ever just delete it? And then forget to do the thing?

  Kat Hunt 18:54

  No, it's a process to delete it. So that's another thing about it is the way it's it's what we call a user interface. So that's what you're interacting with. Its user interface is set up that it's not easy to delete it you have to like really cognitively say I'm going to delete it because it's no longer relevant. You cannot so I'm busy.

  KC Davis 19:16

  It's interrupting. It's like no matter what it is sufficiently interrupting your train of thought and direction. So that like if you're going to take the time to delete it, you might as well just go do the thing. Yep, that's actually kind of smart. Because it is so easy to just say like Alexa turn off. Yeah, or to swipe away notification on your phone. And part of that is because you're thinking, Oh, I've just got five more minutes on this thing. And I'll do that and you're like you're like, you're just like batting it away with your hand and then I it doesn't take me very much time to forget something. Say that. It's interesting.

  Kat Hunt 19:51

  When you hit when you reschedule, you pick increments so I can say I want to be reminded again in three hours or I want to be reminded again in 10 minutes, so maybe you're Like knee deep and some thing that really can't end a kid's got a problem your bandage it up the knee, whatever it might be, you can just very quickly say, remind me in two hours or you know what have you. Okay, but you can't delete it as easily as you can reschedule.

  KC Davis 20:17

  So if you do want to just batted away quickly, you can only do that by rescheduling it. And the rescheduling is easy.

  Kat Hunt 20:24

  Yes, fairly easy, but it makes you think about it. So you're not Yeah, you know, losing it in the ether of your brain.

  KC Davis 20:30

  I will say the thing that I use Alexa for, besides just the timer stuff is the grocery list feature. Because the amount of times that I have gone grocery shopping and forgotten, like something major. And I always think like when I run out of something major, I always think like this is so major, there's no way I'll forget to get this when I go or when I order or when I whatever. But I found that like, I'm noticing that I need something in my kitchen, usually when I'm in the middle of doing something in my kitchen. And so putting the Alexa in my kitchen, so that as I'm literally like, you know, I'm stirring a pot, right and I use the last of the red wine vinegar, I can literally just be like Alexa, I have red wine vinegar to the right, and I don't have to even stop what I'm doing. Because what I found was I wasn't stopping what I was doing to go like right down the list. So the ability to have her do something for me while I'm doing something else. And then you have like your whole list there.

  Kat Hunt 21:32

  Yep, absolutely. I do that with my my Apple watch, because I can feed it into the do app as well. I can set reminders or make lists. So Alexa and in and my Apple Watch kind of work. Similarly, one is just fixed in my office and one goes with me wherever I am.

  KC Davis 21:50

  Well, the thing that I also like about I don't know about the Apple Watch, but I had a smartwatch one time that I could make it the notifications just vibrate with no sound, which was really helpful in environments where there was other people around, or I didn't want to alert people to like what it was I was reminding myself, like you don't want to be take your medication right in the middle of a board meeting, right. But you still want to be alerted. And it's like, okay, I can do that. Like that a lot of there was something else I was gonna say. I think it was about the Alexa Oh, you were mentioning like giving your daughter like transition times and like layups to transitions. So I've started doing that with my kids too, mostly because I forget, I'll be like 10 more minutes a TV, and then I'll go do something and it'll be 45 minutes later. But you know what I found? And if you found the same thing, my kids respond much better to Alexa telling them that it's time to stop doing something than me.

  Kat Hunt 22:45

  I don't mind when you're better for everybody else's parents, but me.

  KC Davis 22:49

  It's almost like they see her as some objective robotic. Yeah, it just is time the house just went off right. Like as opposed to, Oh, mom just doesn't want us to watch more TV. So I just that's like an interesting observation I wanted to share with listeners because

  Kat Hunt 23:05

  I can't remember how young your kids are minors worry and five minds about the beat 13 and a few months. And one thing to think about as they get older, that's been good for her too is she started taking accountability for her own time buffers. So first, second, third grade, I would set the transition time, but now she sets her own. So she'll say, Alexa, remind me in 30 minutes that it's time to get ready for better or what have you. So she'll set her own buffers and and that's given her that skill that she'll take with her as she gets older. And it gives her some self efficacy with it too. So it's not Oh, you know, mom is imposing this thing on me it's me doing this to help myself feel better and do the things I need to do.

  KC Davis 23:55

  I have seen people utilize also like smart bulbs with their Alexa where you know, it'll, it'll change the color. Like if there was somebody that I was listening to where their kids get like 15 minutes to read before they go to bed. And instead of the parent having to go in and be like okay, lights off, they have a smart bulb, and after the 15 minutes, it turns purple to let them know they have a couple of minutes left. And then it turns off. And I mean obviously you can turn it back on but it's like it reminds them and I think that's so key for neurodivergent kids like teaching them how to use the technology that's going to be helpful to them. Because I've really I haven't done it yet but I really would love to even for my kids at their age like get some smart bulbs and put like one of the I have like an echo that someone gave me like the Alexa little dot, which is only like 50 bucks. I would love to set that up in their room to wake them up in the morning. Right where it was like telling them it's time to get up and it was like turning on the lights and maybe playing some music which is crazy that like even at the age of three and five, there's a way for me to start to give them some independence and some ownership. And I mean, I'm probably still gonna have to go up there and help them and things like that. I'm not like leaving them on their own. But I feel like there's so much potential in technology with our kids, to still give them the structure that they need, while allowing them like better teaching them to have some ownership over that, you know, their processes and taking care of themselves and creating their own structure.

  Kat Hunt 25:32

  Definitely. And for me, and my daughter, you know, being on the autism spectrum, she thrives on structure, and I am one of the most unstructured people in the universe. It's helped bridge a gap for us as a mother, daughter, dyad, where she's getting the structure, she needs a little bit more, but it's not either, it's not totally impossible, because a lot of things would be without these assistive technologies, I think for me, but it's also not abrasive to me. So it really creates a very harmonious kind of ecosystem. Not that things don't ever go wrong ever. We've been working on it for years, but you know, I definitely am things. There's little things like they're so simple, but they make a big difference.

  KC Davis 26:17

  That's awesome. Well, cat, thank you so much for coming on. And for sharing those solutions with us. I think that's gonna be really helpful to people. And I quite literally am going to go download the tree app right now.

  Kat Hunt 26:30

  I'll make a list of everything I kind of mentioned today to you so you can have it and share it and you know, all of these are just a hodgepodge of things I've tested so there's nothing they will put it in. Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much for having me today.

  KC Davis 26:45

  Absolutely. Thank you.

As you can probably figure out from the title, this is NOT the show to listen to around children! I’m joined by Catie Osborn, better known as @catieosaurus on TikTok–with an average of 30-50 million monthly views. She is an actor, podcaster, sex educator, adult performer, and mental health and disability advocate based in Atlanta. We are diving into the interesting intersection of ADHD and sexuality. If you are curious to hear more, join us!

Show Highlights:

• How growing up in a very conservative and religious household gave Catie an interesting perspective on sex that was based on shame

• How Catie became interested in kink, received an ADHD diagnosis, and became a sex educator

• Why sex is a “fragile moment”

• Why sexual dysfunction and sexual disappointment are NOT the same things

• How ADHD makes it difficult to stay focused during sex because of overthinking

• How neurodivergent people struggle to articulate their needs–especially with intimacy

• Why sex shouldn’t be in terms of obligation, duty, and service but in terms of being authentically ourselves in surrender to the experience

• How our sex lives are influenced by layers of white supremacy, capitalism, trauma, and heteronormative values that need to be unpacked and investigated

• What kink is at its core–and why it has saved Catie

• Why conversations about sex and intimacy connect you to your partner, breed trust and vulnerability, and lead to better sex!

• Why Catieosaurus’ TikTok series, “Burnt Out Gifted and Talented Submissive Brat with a Praise Kink,” has been hugely popular

• How kink allowed Catie to be the one who calls the shots and feels safe and supported–for the first time

Resources and Links:

Connect with Catie: Website, Podcast, Instagram, and TikTok

Book mentioned: Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski

 Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  Unknown Speaker 0:00

  Hey

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello you sentient sexy balls of stardust. This is struggle care, the podcast about self care by a host that hates the term self care. And today's episode is probably not the one you want to play in front of your kids. And if you are my mother or my father or my in laws, probably also not the episode that you want to listen to, unless you want way too many details about my sex life. So if you are neither a child nor related to me, carry on.

  Welcome back to the struggle care podcast. I have an exciting guest today. You may know her as CatieSaurus from tick tock. It's Catie Osborne.

  Catie Osborn 0:44

  Hello. It's me. Catie Saurus. I don't know what I was going for there. It's right. Oh,

  KC Davis 0:50

  it's fine. Listen, guys, I prepared for this podcast by saying meet me at the maypole at 10am We're gonna do a podcast.

  Catie Osborn 0:59

  Live here from the maple.

  KC Davis 1:01

  We're live here from the maypole. That's about the amount of preparation that I put into this podcast, which is not a reflection on how excited I am or how important of a guest you are.

  Catie Osborn 1:12

  I feel like that just means that you have a lot of trust in me. So I'll take it as a compliment.

  KC Davis 1:16

  Well, I did have this thought of like people a lot of times when I'm on their podcast will like prepare questions ahead of time and send me questions. And I've definitely done that for people. But I'm also someone who is like, perfectly happy to like, just like rip off the hip. And I did have this slot where I was like, I'm super grateful that Katie is the one on the podcast. Because something tells me she could probably just go off the dome.

  Catie Osborn 1:40

  That's what my entire podcast is. That's what we do on our podcasts. We pick a topic and then we just go oh, what do you think about this topic? And then sometimes we wind up staying on topic and sometimes we end up like reviewing movies like it just it's you never know. So I get it.

  KC Davis 1:55

  Well, I'm super excited about our topic today. Speaking of topics, because as many of you maybe know, Katie and I both are over on Tik Tok. And we've had quite similar trajectories. I feel like we've been at the same follower count for months now. not static, but like when you grow I grow.

  Catie Osborn 2:15

  Boy, I sure hope you grow next week then because oh my god. I think I got 10 whole followers yesterday. It was really exciting. Oh, no, it's fine. We're all five.

  KC Davis 2:26

  Well, listen, if you're listening to this, you gotta go follow Katie. Okay,

  Catie Osborn 2:30

  go follow me. Well, I mean, listen to the podcast first, make your own informed decision. Make an assessment. So hey, Casey, what are we talking about today? Well, okay, we're

  KC Davis 2:39

  going to talk about sex today. So sex and ADHD, this is an interesting cross section most of your content about ADHD. Yes. And then you started this series about sex and ADHD, which is fascinating to me. So tell me how this came about to be a topic of combo. Okay.

  Catie Osborn 2:55

  So well, how do you want the long story, the medium story? I want whatever story you want to tell. Okay. So my relationship with sex has always been really interesting, because I grew up in a very conservative, very religious household. And so sex and our bodies were, I was raised thinking that they were very shameful, and you know, something to be like, embarrassed about, and we didn't talk about. But what that also meant was that I didn't have a really good understanding about my sexuality, and about my body and that kind of thing. And so then, as I got older, that was kind of something that I wanted to take back, I wanted to empower myself to like, sort of understand myself in that way. And so I got really into like kink and that kind of thing. And I started educating on kink and that type of stuff. And then after I got diagnosed with ADHD, I started doing some research, but at the time, it wasn't specifically about just, you know, ADHD, neurodivergent, the effects. But I started looking into, you know, just ADHD has effect on our lives. And what I was, I don't know why I was surprised. But I was surprised to find out that ADHD isn't just a school thing. It's not just a work thing. It affects every facet of our lives, including stuff like orgasms. And when I learned that my mind was quite literally blown. And so I started sort of like studying and secret to become a certified sex educator, because I'm one of those people where if I tell people, I'm going to do it, then I won't do it. And then, you know, and then they asked you six months later, and it's embarrassing. So I totally held in secret for a year and I took a lot of classes and did a lot of work to become a certified sex educator. But the thing that solidified it for me and I tell the story a lot, but I like it because I think it's really important. So in the middle of one of my classes, it was being taught by this very neurotypical man who was just kind of like, you know, talking about sex stuff. But there was a class that we were taking about, like, you know, what happens when sex gets interrupted, what happens when, you know, like, you fall off the bed or something goes wrong, and he very cavalierly said, you know, You just don't have to worry about it, the moment is not precious. It's not you don't have to worry about it, you can just laugh it off, come back. And I was like, that is so counterintuitive to everything that I know and understand about sex because like, Yes, I agree, you should be able to just, you know, laugh it off and come back. But if I fall off the bed, you know, like, I run the risk of noticing that the carpet needs to be vacuumed, or like looking out the window and realizing that the UPS truck is here, or whatever it may be. And so I asked, and I said, Well, what about people with ADHD? You know, like, what about people who do get very distracted, or like, task initiation or that kind of stuff, and I really got blown off. And that was one of the first moments where I realized how much of the conversation about sex and intimacy surrounds the assumption that both or all parties involved, I guess, just to say, are neurotypical and able bodied. And once I started really thinking about what I had learned, and really started unpacking what I had learned, I realized that like, there weren't conversations happening in like, a large scale way. And I thought, well, I have the platform, and I have this very vested interest in this topic. So I guess I'll become the lady on Tiktok, who talks about sex and ADHD? Viet?

  KC Davis 6:14

  I love it. Okay, so I actually binge watched a bunch of these tech talks recently to prepare for us talking. And that was the one that stood out to me the most, where the guy said, like, well, the moments not fragile.

  Catie Osborn 6:27

  Yeah, yes, it is.

  KC Davis 6:29

  And I was like, oh, no, yeah. I mean, I get what he's saying. But also, like, I definitely more relate to what you're saying, where like, when you get in that zone, there's this like, Okay, I'm in tune with my body, I'm in tune with my partner, I'm feeling my sensations. I'm enjoying myself. And it's almost like you have these like really fragile blinders on. And there's this tightrope of like, okay, if I think too much about how it's going, well, if I think too much about how I'm in the moment, then I will take myself out of the moments.

  Catie Osborn 7:13

  Yes, that happens to me all the time.

  KC Davis 7:16

  And I was like, it is fragile, like being in that sort of, like, erotic zone, where you have to pay a high Oh, no, but you're right. It's fragile.

  Catie Osborn 7:30

  Yeah. And the thing that I think is fascinating is that there have only been a handful of studies because I'm like, I'm very, like, I'm the academic one, or I'm just like, I'm gonna go research. But there's only been a couple of studies done, but like, they all kind of agree that about 40% of everybody with ADHD, irregardless of gender struggles in some way with sex or sexual dysfunction. But the other thing that I think is really interesting is that one of the most frustrating things about having conversations about sex and sexuality is the terminology of sexual dysfunction. Because what is actually more accurate for a lot of people is what like I would say is like, sexual disappointment, right? Where it's not like there's anything medically wrong with you. It's not like there's something that is not working. It's just not how you want it to be. And that can be even more frustrating, right? Because like, if you know, a person with a penis goes to the doctor. And they're like, oh, no, I'm having trouble with sex. The doctor can say, Oh, you have erectile dysfunction, congratulations, and like, move on with your day. But with like ADHD, where like, symptomatically, it's I'm checking out during sex, or I'm having a hard, I like the Bailey founder square your toy, right? When I got to most serious discussion. I got a dog listeners. And I regret giving her squeaky toys. That's what I learned. But you know, like with ADHD, it can be really hard to look at it and say, Okay, well, I'm checking out during sex, or I'm struggling to stay focused during sex, or I'm struggling to get in the mood during sex. That is not a dysfunction. That's not something that is like clinically wrong with you. It just means that there is like a struggle there or like extra work that you have to do. And so sometimes the first step, and even having a conversation about sex and about intimacy is like unpacking the toxic ideas that we have about sex and about intimacy and like that it's supposed to be this one way or it's supposed to be easy, or you're supposed to be, you know, turned on at the drop of a hat. And that's just not the case. And I think that is, that's a big part of it is in the conversation about neuro divergence is also just really starting to unpack the expectations versus sort of like reality of intimacy as a whole. So it becomes very large very quickly.

  KC Davis 9:51

  One of the things that you talked about one of your tic TOCs that I thought was really meaningful was that when you talk about quote unquote sexual dysfunction or sexual troubles. You mentioned troubles getting aroused, but then you specifically mentioned trouble staying aroused. And that's something that I feel like it's not talked about a lot when we talk about sex and problems with sex, because the focus is so much on penetration in sort of a heteronormative view that we focus on getting aroused as being like the most important thing because like, if you have a penis, like you have to get aroused for, like the mechanics to work, and if you're a woman, you have to get aroused for the mechanics to not be painful, right, like, so we sort of focus because we have such a penetrative view of sex, it's like, well, as long as we can get the P and the V, like the, which should be smooth sailing after that. But the reality is, I think, especially as someone with ADHD, that feeling of kind of needing to stay ahead in the game to really be in the experience. But also, you know, if you get into a stretch, where you're thinking, like, Oh, God, I'm losing it, I'm losing it, I'm losing it. Because you know, there's something that changed in the environment, or in the move or in the position. And if you're not in a place where you've worked and talk with your partner about being able to vocalize at that moment, hey, position change, or like, hey, Nope, we're gonna go left, not right, we're gonna go up, not down, we're gonna go, whatever, whatever, because you feel like it should always just flow, it should always just be this magical, you know, like, whatever is that then you find yourself in that spot where as you feel the arousal waning in the middle of the sex act, you get into that like meta headspace of like, it's okay. Okay, oh, God, get it back, get back, get back, get back. In my experience, like, once you get into that space of almost not overthinking it, but almost like having like meta thoughts about the experience, it's like it's over. So one of the things

  Catie Osborn 11:53

  that I find to be really interesting, and really sort of like, along with that is that in working with a lot of neurodivergent, people, sort of like, regardless of what your neurodivergent it is, a lot of neurodivergent people struggle to know what they want, or struggle to articulate their needs, or feel like they can't, and that is like a really big one. And a lot of that comes out of trauma, it comes out of living with an undiagnosed neurodivergent See, or feeling like there's something inherently wrong with you, or feeling broken or feeling guilty about it, or all of these sort of like, very negative emotions that are associated with, you know, the experience of late diagnosis. And so then it wants to be missing where the conversation is never just about ADHD, it's never just about intimacy. It's never just about this, like one thing. It's just like massive, sort of like tangled yarn ball of like, the effects that ADHD has your on your, you know, attention span, but also then the trauma of not being able to articulate what you want, or having gotten in trouble a lot for asking for stuff over and over again. And so it can be really difficult for a neurodivergent person to even start to like find, you know, the thread to pull on. That's like, Okay, well, how do I get into my body? How do I figure out what I need? How do I figure out what I want? And that I don't have a good answer for. But one of the things that I talk about a lot is that is that specific experience of struggling to articulate needs and struggling to articulate wants, because I think it's important for other people to hear that they're not alone. They're not the only person who struggles to articulate or struggles to know what they want. And that I think sometimes can be, I don't wanna say more important, but I think it's a really important part of the process, when you're starting to think about sex and sexuality as it relates to your neurodivergent SE. Does that make any sales?

  KC Davis 13:55

  Because it comes to my mind is like when you spend the majority of your life particularly as a sort of person socialized as a female living as a female, like, you and your neurodivergent? Like, you basically have a history of being told You're too much. Yep. Right, you're too much Calm down, wait, your turn, quit interrupting. And not only that, you're told that you're too much, but you're told that you're too muchness is relating to a character defect, like you're selfish or self absorbed, you're an attention whore like, and so we develop this shame about our personalities and we learn how to perform at such a young age. So that you know whether I'm in the classroom or with friends, like I learned to constantly have this meta narrative dialogue about my behavior and about my experience. Okay, when was it okay for me to talk? Okay, wait, wait, wait, okay, and go right or like, Okay, I just set a thing. I just did a thing. Okay. Was that too much? Was it enough? Do they think this? And one of the things you talk about a couple of people, I think you read come As you are the book, and come as you are as a great book, if anyone wants to read up on sex, and then there's another figure, did you study Esther Parral at all? Okay, so both of these figures I am obsessed with, and they really represent what I think as a therapist is a much better way of thinking about sex. Because if anyone's listening, like if you've ever been to like old school, like sex therapy, it's very weird. And it's very old. It's very based in like, Well, men have needs and men need sex to feel intimate, and why don't you just schedule sex and and God help you if you were ever in like a religious context where they talked about like duty and sacrifice and serving. And I think that this idea that they talk about income as you are, and that Esther Perel talks about where sex, to be, like good sex to be intimate sex, it requires that there not be that meta narrative dialogue, that you just are authentically yourself, and you're coming to claim your pleasure, and you're coming to interact with this other being, and there's this freeness and this abandon and the surrender. And obviously, there has to be trust and safety and all of those things for that to happen. But it makes sense why someone who is neurodivergent would really struggle because not only do we have trouble sort of paying attention, but it's not as though paying attention has to do with distraction. I mean, it can as much as it has to do with like, we did have not had practice turning off that meta narrative Nair, like a dialogue that we constantly have about our behavior.

  Catie Osborn 16:45

  Yeah, absolutely.

  KC Davis 16:46

  To just focus on experiencing, I'll say this, I was the most like, helpful thing I ever heard from a sex therapist, that is kind of like up on the new research about sex is he said that the first thing he does with couples that come in, that are struggling with intimacy is he says, He tells them to stop referring to sex as a need, and stop referring to like drive like, oh, low drive, high drive all these things. But he said that because as I stare, Pearl says, like, obligation is the opposite of eroticism. Like, if you are just trying to do you're good little, you know, neurodivergent girl thing and like read the room, gain the expectations, get the rules, and then perform like you might perform well, but you're not going to experience it in a way that's fulfilling for your view, at least eventually, right? And so yeah, he says, I want to get rid of these words like need and drive. Because when you say to your partner, I have a high sex drive, and I have a need, and I need you to meet my needs, it automatically puts your partner in the seat of obligation and duty and service. And particularly if you live life, as a woman, we're already told that our whole lives are about obligation and duty and service. He said, It is so different. He said, you don't have a need for sex, you have a desire for sex, but I'm not downplaying it. Like it's an important desire. And it's such a different experience to go to your partner and say, I have a deep burning desire to have a passionate, intimate sex life with you. Yeah. And inviting them into a space where you're asking them to unfold, you're asking them to abandon you're asking them to meet you in this place that only the two or three or however many of you, right can be in this intimate space where you are invited to turn off this meta narrative, you are invited to surrender and be authentically just who you are and lose yourself in the experience. He's like, how much like, that'll get your panties wet. Right? It's such a different way.

  Catie Osborn 19:00

  It's so much better. I mean, and maybe I'm working too hard to like, shoehorn it into like a tight little point. But like, for me, a lot of times that conversation around like sex drive and like this, like idea that like, oh, I need sex or whatever. A lot of times, like, especially with sex drive, and like libido, I related a lot like when I'm talking and like doing like speaking stuff, to the idea of like high functioning versus low functioning, because I hate that. And it's such like a problematic take on support needs. But like high functioning, low functioning, high sex drive, low sex drive, according to who, according to what measure according to what metric, are we deciding that? Well, you have, you know, your low functioning or you have low sex drive or whatever, because and this is like, honestly, I'm not even embarrassed to say this. This is something I didn't know until I was literally 30 years old is that sex drive is as defined by the individual sex drive is not there's not like a board of sex drive guys who decided, like, if you think about sex four times a day, that's Hi, you know, and if you like, it was one of those things where like, I just always disliked thought that there was just this understanding that sex drive is like a readable metric one through

  KC Davis 20:21

  10 There's like a valid scale, like out there. Yeah,

  Catie Osborn 20:25

  yeah. You know, it's like the smiley face chart at the hospital. But it's like, no, like, your sex drive is entirely based only on you, and only on your experience, and sex drive weights, it waxes and wanes, you know, like, it is very, very natural and very, very normal to have peaks and valleys in your desire, especially when you're in a safe and supportive and healthy relationship. Because like, sometimes, you know, you got to just deal with like, the in laws or whatever, and there's not time for intimacy. And sometimes it's like game on, you know, with this idea that there's like, one right way to live and experience sex drive. And there's one right way, you know, for, like, whatever it may be, that I think is also one of the most damaging things that I like, a lot of times, that's what I have to start with, like, I don't even have start with the questions about ADHD or neurodivergent. Se, what I start with is questions like, well, you know, my partner needs to have sex three times a week, but I want sex one time a month, what do I do? And I'm like, have a conversation about your mismatched desires, and don't do anything you don't want to do? Like, that's step one. And that's what I think is really interesting, because again, it's we're talking about socialization, we're talking about, like, patriarchy stuff, we're talking about, like white supremacy stuff. And it gets so large, so quickly, that it's like, I love talking about this. But I always have this little bit of dread, because it's like, I can't fix everything. And I can't talk about everything all at one time. But that's like, that's where my brain goes, is just really thinking about that a lot. I don't know what I was going where I was going with that, but it's fine.

  KC Davis 22:07

  No, but I'm glad that you went there. Because here's what I think like, I also come from an evangelical background, I still practice in the Christian faith, but I do not belong to a church. And I would consider myself a somebody who has deconstructed that evangelical vein. And I think that because I've had a lot of experience with marriage therapists in that world. And I think a good bit of sex therapy, in general is really heavily influenced by those Puritan values. And those ideas that like, Well, men need sex and men's brains are like waffles and women's brains are like spaghetti, and all of this fucking junk science about how we have gendered brains that are so different. And you know, men need sex to feel loved, and they need respect. But women need love to feel it. It's just it's so wrong. But one of the things is, is like if you are someone who is going to go to therapy to talk about sex, and the first thing your therapist starts talking about is sex. They don't know what they're talking about, yes, 100%, because we are so influenced by white supremacy. And we are so influenced by capitalism, and we are so influenced by the trauma of being neurodivergent, or the heteronormative sort of values. And like, there's so many things that are affecting our sex lives, that we don't know, that we have to unpack or at least investigate before we can even get to a place that answers the question of what do I do if I'm, you know, I want it once a month, and he wants it three months, you know, three times a month or a week or whatever. Like, there are so many layers here. And just I mean, as everything in our lives is complicated, like we don't check those things at the door when we go into the bedroom.

  Catie Osborn 24:01

  Yeah. And one of the things that I struggle with the most is that is, I think, just like the fundamental misunderstanding of how ADHD affects adults, because like, I mean, honestly, the reason why I started doing all of this and doing what I do is because I just got fed up with reading literature that like seemed to imply that like, on your 18th birthday, when you become an adult, the ADHD fairy comes and you're cured, you know, and like, just like the insidious way that like ADHD is discussed, where it's like, oh, you know, like, I don't know 15% of kids have ADHD, but seemingly only 3% of adults have ADHD. It's like no, those people still have ADHD. They just learned strategies and coping mechanisms and their ADHD is such that they can exist without like needing medication that doesn't make ADHD go away. But because there is so much like fundamental misunderstanding about what neurodivergent see is What ADHD is what autism is whatever it may be that then you immediately start running into stuff like, well, ADHD is just a school thing, or it's just a work thing, or it's just a keeping your house clean thing, or it's just a that thing, but it's like, no ADHD is, like I said earlier, it is entwined in every single aspect of everything we do. And then on top of that, you have a lot of like those universal experiences, like rejection sensitivity, and struggling with, you know, like you said, the trauma of neurodivergent. Se. And so, when you start having conversations, like I agree, like, I really don't think you can start with sex, like you have to start with the individual and the individuals experience of navigating through the world. But it's so much easier to just go, oh, well, you could schedule sex for Thursday's. And it's like, that's not getting to the root of anything. It's, you know,

  KC Davis 25:56

  and like, anytime a therapist, or somebody gives the advice of like, well, you know, you just have to maybe do it sometimes when you don't want to as an act of love. It's like that's not the answer. Because truly, truly, truly one of my favorite phrases is that neurons that wire together, fire together. And it just means that like, if you're doing a behavior in a specific emotional context, enough times, your brain will begin to associate that emotional context with that behavior. And it will get to the point where even if you're not in that emotional place, you will not be able to do that behavior without bringing on those emotions. Yeah, so if the more times you have sex, when you don't want to, the more times your brain will associate sex with something that is not something you want to do. And so even if you're in a position where Oh, no, I want it you hid in the bedroom, or the kitchen or the backseat of your car or whatever, and your brain will start to shut things down, it'll shut your body down, it'll shut your mind down. Because your brain, you fed your brain, this script, like you've literally given it a piece of code that says, sex is something that we just get through sex is something we distract ourselves to get through sex is something that isn't about our pleasure, it's about their pleasure. And you can't just decide that you're not going to use that piece of code without like a good bit of debugging. And every time you do obligatory sets, you reinforce those neural pathways, and random swing, and here, but I was thinking about how the reward, motivation interest of somebody with ADHD is different than someone who's neurotypical. And I'm sure people have heard this before, if they've looked into ADHD, when they talk about having interest based motivation systems we talk about, I think it's like interest, competition, novelty and urgency. One of the things that occurs to me is that I think that you when you're young, when you're dating, you may not have had any sexual issues. But then you get with a partner. And if you decide to be monogamous with that partner, fast forward months or years, and all of a sudden, you're struggling with things with sex that you never have before, and you're going what's wrong with me? Do I not love this person and do it like all these things. And to me, it's just so obvious that it dating, or in your that honeymoon phase, or you have multiple partner, whatever, like your sex is naturally going to have a sense of novelty and urgency and interest to it. And then fast forward, if you're in a monogamous relationship, or maybe it's not even a monogamous relationship, you just have a committed partner, even if it's an open relationship, or a poly relationship. And all of a sudden, like, sex is familiar. It doesn't have those qualities anymore. And as somebody with ADHD, like you actually have to then create those qualities again, and you're in the bedroom.

  Catie Osborn 28:59

  Yeah, I mean, and it's, I mean, this is the point where I always feel bad because I'm always just like, I swear, I'm not trying to recruit anybody to my team. But like, it's one of the reasons why I got so invested in like, educating about kink, because I I really do think that kink is one of the most powerful tools that a person with ADHD has in their toolbox for things like the novelization of ADHD, you know, or like intimacy with ADHD or you know, the, I don't know the shaking of things up with ADHD and it's so funny to me because like a lot of times I think people hear kink and they think like, you know, whips and chains and signing contracts and going to dungeons which like if you're into it cool. But when I talk about kink what I mostly just mean is exploring things since orally because that is very much like you know, if you boil it down and boil it down at its very core kink is simply a, I think, deeper exploration of the individual senses and how they tie into the intimate experience. And so, you know, things like, you know, the one that I always, like wind up giving an example of is like, you know, a lot of people say, well, it's really hard for me to stay in the moment during sex, because, you know, I look around and I see like, the messy bedroom, or I'm looking at the dusty ceiling fan or whatever, and I go cool, wear a blindfold. Problem solved, you know, and people go, Oh, that's so this is so kinky. Oh, my gosh, oh, and I'm like, but try it. See what happens. You know, for other people like me, especially like this is one that I do is I really like wearing like wireless earbuds during intimacy because like my neighbor, most his lawn 97 times a week, it is the weirdest I don't know what that dude is doing. But he is retired, and he is living his best grass mowing life. But it's so hard for me because you know, we'll be in the middle of something. And then the lawnmower starts and I'm like, Well, there's a noise, you know, but it's like, you know, what, this is that having music that I'm just listening to, that is technically considered cake, like now that's like the most, you know, cool with you, you know, vanilla cake ever. But you know, stuff like that. And so it's like finding, there's no shame in finding clever and creative and resourceful workarounds. When it comes to feeling like that novelty is wearing off or feeling like that urgency has worn off, because like, I don't want to speak for every person with ADHD. But I can say, personally, I sabotaged so many good relationships, because I didn't have an understanding of what a healthy stable relationship look like. Because my frame of reference, especially when I was younger, was movies and TV. And you know, I talked about this on tick tock the other day, but like, movies and TV, there's never a scene where the couple sits down and says, Hey, I love you so much. But like, oral really doesn't do it for me. And it's awkward when you do it. And I feel weird. So like, could we find that, like, that scene doesn't exist on TV, you know? And so it's like, there's this idea that like, for true intimacy, or, you know, by extension, true love to exist. Intimacy and sex is this act of mind reading it is this act of like, immediately being ready to go with a drop of a hat and being able to turn on and you know, whatever parts you have the arousal, is there enough and good and working and functional, and everybody's in the mood and there's, you know, no laundry that needs to be, you know, put into the dryer. It's very, I don't even say sanitized, but it's a very sensationalized idea of what intimacy really is.

  KC Davis 32:42

  What's really cinematic like, yeah, like, never is there the scene where, like, you know, you crawl into bed with your partner, and they go, I love you, but you smell Yeah. Will you take a shower before we do this? And yeah, it's just, it really is so huge, because so many people I think, that are struggling, are locked into this, they think it's a foregone conclusion that if they're struggling with this, it has something to do with their partner, or they are broken. So like, we immediately go to either I as a person and broken or I don't want to share any of this with my partner, because I don't want them to think it's their fault. Like, I don't love them, like, I'm not attracted to them. And I think that it's so important that we normalize having these conversations. And the other thing that's wild, like, we think that having those kinds of conversations is going to like, be really not sexy, like, Oh, it's so administrative, it's so whatever. But here's what I have found, like, intimacy is so much more than just sex, like intimacy has to do with connection. And I was so surprised to learn that having those conversations was very intimate for me. And I don't mean intimate, like, you know, candlelight, like, Ooh, I have butterflies in my stomach. But especially with a long term partner, having those kinds of conversations are very connecting, like just talking about your relationship talking, like the feeling of, we're on the same team, and we're like, we're in the trenches, and we're gonna figure this out, we're gonna have the best sex I've ever we're gonna eat like, that is the camaraderie that happens there. If both of you approach it in that way, is like builds a lot of intimacy. And that intimacy helps you in the bedroom and I just love I love when you talk about kink. And I think that for a lot of people, like you said, they hear kink and they go right to like whips and chains and dungeons, instead of really having this or they go to like, if they have a background from church, they go to like perversion, like that's the word that they associated with it. Instead of like, play like that should be where our mind goes when we hear kink is play.

  Catie Osborn 34:55

  Oh, I have so many thoughts. But I mean, I do want to say one thing about what you just said is I think that there's like a third component that sometimes happens is like, you know, people either think it's a commentary on me or I don't want to hurt their feelings. But the third option, and this is one that I get a lot in the work that I do is that having to have that conversation is some kind of red flag about the relationship. And that the need to sit down and discuss, I shouldn't have to ask for him to tell me that I love that he loves me, I shouldn't have to ask him to bring me flowers, I shouldn't have to ask her to you know, remember to load the dishwasher, whatever it may be. There's this idea. And again, I think it I really think it goes back to like, I always hate saying the media. But I think in this case, it is applicable. Like I think it goes back to like the media and those sort of like patriarchal standards of like communication is somehow bad. Communicating somehow implies a problem having to sit down and talk about, you know, whatever your needs may be, that's not an intimate thing. That's a thing to be feared. And that's like, one of the biggest things that I constantly fight against in my work is like, why shouldn't have to ask for him to tell me that he loves me. It's like, well, it should be automatic. And it should always be exactly what I need it. And you know, I always kind of look and it's I try to be very like, you know, non judgmental, because that's important. But I find myself looking at at a lot of people and saying, Well, how will he know that you need to hear I love you. Unless you tell him that you need to hear I love it. Well, he should just know. Well, he just told you that he grew up in a house where you know, people didn't say I love you. So that's not a behavior that he knows, and that he appreciates the same way that you do. And then they look at each other and go, Oh, well, that makes sense. But that that immediate jump to having to talk about it implies a problem, I think is so indicative of like, the culture that we're living in this culture of like, we especially like people who have been socialized as women, like articulating our needs, somehow makes us a less than partner or a worse partner. And it's exactly the opposite. It is exactly the opposite. In like having those conversations breeds intimacy, it breeds vulnerability. It breeds trust, it breeds communication. And that makes for better sex. Because when you feel connected and trusted and able to be open with somebody, you're gonna have better sex. That's just that's just that's science.

  KC Davis 37:27

  I think, you know, we've sort of been talking a lot about from the perspective of somebody who is female, presenting or socialized as a woman. But when I think about somebody who was raised as a man or presents as a man, or who's been basically living under the male script of patriarchy, I think that a lot of men have been socialized to be uncomfortable talking about emotion, uncomfortable talking about something that's in progress, right? Because they're supposed to fix it. And it's not supposed to be emotional. And so they look at the act of sex as their one way to get emotional closeness or intimacy. And so when you say, well, we can have this conversation and this conversation for one party might feel very intimate talking about the ins and outs and the nuts and bolts, whereas like, I can definitely see someone living under a patriarchal script of masculinity, being extremely uncomfortable in those conversations and feeling vulnerable and feeling like I don't feel close. When we talk about this, I feel laid bare. I feel insecure. I feel like we're talking about things that I have failed at. And I have been told culturally from a white supremacist culture from patriarchal culture that if I fail, I am worthless. And so they're just again, it's hugely powerful things to unpack before you even get to the bedroom, if you will. I want to ask you about one of your most popular series, which I have thoroughly enjoyed, and is probably the reason that I realized that I am I too am.

  Catie Osborn 39:01

  Oh, do you want me to do it? Is it a burnout gifted and talented semester? Brat with price kink?

  KC Davis 39:05

  Oh, yeah, I want you to do it. Haha. Yes. Okay, just talk to us about this.

  Catie Osborn 39:10

  Well, what would you I don't know what you want me to talk about. For the listeners

  KC Davis 39:15

  at home? What does it mean to be a burnt out talented gifted kid, submissive brat with a praise kink?

  Catie Osborn 39:21

  So do you like how I always cleverly managed to bring it back to neurodiversity? Like it's just I'm shoehorning it in so hard, right? Like I think one of the more interesting things that I have learned and also experienced in my own life is that for a lot of again, I'm talking about the socializes woman experience in this capacity, but for a lot of people who have lived that experience with undiagnosed neurodivergent sees they often get thrown into the gifted kid program, because neurodivergent kids tend to be really good at like certain stuff. Now there are certainly there's also the experience of neurodivergent kids who unfortunately get You know, the remedial behavioral problems? Yeah, remedial, which is also like just as unfair for its own set of reasons. But my experience was being an undiagnosed neurodivergent kid who got thrown into gifted programs because I was extremely good at school. So already off the bat, like my experience with ADHD was not that I was failing out of school where I was struggling at school, school was my time to shine, school was the thing that I had, and the place where I would get the accolades and I would get the recognition and I was in every club and every, you know, straight A's and all that stuff.

  KC Davis 40:31

  Do you want to know how I refer to that I would love to being smart, was the driftwood that I clung to in a sea of insecurity.

  Catie Osborn 40:40

  That's how I know that you've written a book, because that's a good author wordings, but like, but that was it was like, and for a lot of people, you're exactly right, that is the driftwood that they cling to. And so a lot of people develop this sort of like identity as like, I'm good at school, and I'm smart, and I'm gifted, I'm the gifted kid or whatever. And then this thing happens, where you graduate, and or, you know, you do what I do, and you go to grad school three more times, because you just feel like you can't get enough. But then like, at some point, you don't have anybody to tell you that you're doing a good job. And you don't have anybody to say, Oh, my God, you're so smart. And this is amazing. And you're you have so much potential, because now you're like, 35, you know, you're like, What am I doing. And so like I jokingly started talking about, like being a burnt out gifted and talented submissive brat with a price cake. And it turned out that there is a hell of a lot of us out there on the old tiktoks. But I think that I make a lot of jokes about that series, because that's kind of like my fun, you know, like, silly series. But I also think that there's something like deeply truthful about that, living that experience of being, you know, somebody who comes from that world of, you know, gifted and talented programs, and now feeling older and feeling more grown up, but still wanting to hear that good job and still wanting to hear that like, Yeah, wow, that was you did a good job a plus. And so for a lot of people, so just shows up as a praise cake, or just, you know, enjoying praise. And so yeah, and so I started that series very facetiously. But one of the things that has come out of it is honestly just like a profound appreciation for the community of people who sort of like identify along that line, because it's like, it can be really, I don't want to say hard, but it can be really challenging to navigate the world and have these places where, like, you really want to hear the good job, and you really want to get the accolades, but like, where do you get them now that you're 35? And so it turns out that turns out the answer is Bucha. Jobs, answers blow jobs, and no, like, you know, occasionally go on to the next budget, or whatever it may be for you. Yeah, but yeah,

  KC Davis 42:51

  every time I hear you talk, I just have this overwhelming sense of like, are we the same person? We

  Catie Osborn 42:55

  might be? I've been, I've been thinking about it. You have cooler tattoos.

  KC Davis 42:59

  I also went to grad school, literally, because I finished college and thought, Oh, God, I am not ready to be an adult. I will just keep going to school. Yeah, so I had a similar experience in school. And my was interesting, because I was very good at school, I was very intelligent. I was one of those like, oh, let's pick you out at seventh grade to go take the SATs, like that kind of thing. But I never ever did homework, because ADHD, like, like, go home. And I just can't make my own structure around those things. But I loved to learn. And so for a lot of people with experiences, they do really well in school, and then they get out of school. And then they have this disappointment of I'm not changing the world. Actually, I didn't amount to anything, I just am a normal person with a normal job. And my experience was a little bit different. Because what happened, my drop off was high school. Because what happened was, I went to a school where the way that they weighted grades was that tests, quizzes, participation, and like classwork were the majority of your grade. And your homework was like a very small percentage. So even though I never ever, ever, ever did my homework, I was the girl whose hand was always raised, I could sit there and listen to the lecture, not take any notes. And then a week later, take a quiz or a test and get 100 on it, because I would retain all of the information. It made sense it was this interconnected web of concepts in my mind. But what happened was, even though I did get in trouble about the homework, I'd never gotten too much trouble. I was still making straight A's. When I went to college, I went to an all girls private prep school, and two things happened. Number one, they started testing us on things that they didn't teach us in class. Now we'll get you right like I'm gonna teach chapters one through three and then you're gonna go home and read and learn chapters four and five, and then we're going to get a test over all of it when you come back. And because I wasn't doing homework, and I didn't know how and I had no Gill's to figure out how to structure myself for that, I quickly started failing tests. And they also changed the way that they weighted grades. So now the work you were doing outside of class had a much bigger impact on the class grade. And so I started failing, literally failing. EFS, DDS, I ended up having a lot of behavior problems, addiction problems, I got expelled from that private school. And so, you know, whether it's that experience, or like your experience, but it's the same thing, it's this, like, you get identified early as just being inherently better than everyone else.

  Catie Osborn 45:38

  And it's so damaging, it's so damaging. And when that eventually

  KC Davis 45:43

  falls off, you, you're like, Well, this was all I had, I was the smart girl, I was the competent girl, I was the girl that was better than everybody else. And then all the sudden, like you said, you're in grad school, or you're in the workforce, or you're just like a regular adult. And we don't know where to go anymore. Yeah.

  Catie Osborn 46:02

  And I love like, your story is so interesting to me, because like, I feel like we are, we're the same person. But like, we literally took the two paths that we see undiagnosed neurodivergent, especially girls go through where you where there's that point of change, there's that point of the structure has broken down. And for a lot of people, it's going into college, for a lot of people, it's when they get married, or they you know, they move out and they're like, on their own for the first time. You know, for some kids, it's high school, but for for like the vast majority, it does tend to be college. But it is exactly what you just said, like you, you know, left school, you're dealing with addiction you're dealing with like behavioral stuff. And then I went the opposite way, I was the person who threw myself in with this, like desperate clinging on to this idea that I had to be the best and I had to be perfect and whatever. So I'm gonna go earn two degrees that I don't really need, you know, and like all of this up, just to keep proving myself over and over and over. But that is like that's kind of like the path, you know, you can either

  KC Davis 47:10

  because perfect is the only option. And so it actually creates two paths, you can continue to pursue perfect, or you can go anti perfect, and I'm going to be the most perfect drug addict, I'm going to be the most perfect, like Kurt Cobain feeling, you know, like, just tragic. I'm going to embrace this tragic beauty Fallout, I'm not even going to try anymore. Because if I try and fail, I'll have to own up to me being a failure. But if I don't try it all, if I don't try it all, Katie and I just go use a bunch of drugs, then I just get to tell myself, while I'm, you know, the failure of society, but then I get to tell myself, it's just because I didn't try. I mean, I am smarter than everyone. I am better than everyone, but I'm not participating in society. Yeah, that's why, right. Okay, so this is the burnt out, talented and gifted part. And then the next part is the submissive part. And I will tell you this, like it folds right in because I find that if you're someone who has been sort of labeled, competent, strong, extrovert, like those things, if you've just always sort of been in control, there is something about being in a position and being allowed to be safely submissive. That is, like, so relieving.

  Catie Osborn 48:36

  Yeah. Well, it's for me, especially like, it's like, I think, again, people here submissive, and what they sometimes like, fill in the blank is like perversion, you know, or like trauma, or like, whatever. And it's like, no, like, I always explain it, like, a lot, like, and I think a lot of neurodivergent people get this, but it's like, at the end of the day, I'm exhausted from making decisions, because every decision that I have to make throughout the day, is just another like, you know, emotional expenditure. It's another spoon that I'm spending on whatever. And sometimes, I don't want to have to do that I'm tired, I'm exhausted or whatever. And the safety of having a partner who I trust and I, you know, I've communicate with and that kind of thing, but just looking at and being able to say, I just want to turn my brain off, you know, it doesn't even have to be a sex thing. Like the majority of you know, what I would say is, you know, my submissive right with a price tag is like, I let Chris choose what he wants for dinner. Like we just if you pick where we're going for dinner, I don't care, you know, like that kind of stuff. Like it doesn't have to be like overtly sexual, but sometimes it's nice because like circling all the way back to kind of the beginning of the conversation, it can be so hard for me to turn off my brain it can be is so deep to call for me to get into my body like that is one of the hardest things for me is to just be present and be there in the moment and be like, okay, like, I'm going to experience this intimacy with you. And so being able to just kind of look at a person that I love deeply and trust and say, and I'm sort of giving you the keys because I don't want to drive like that it can be, it's such a relief, it feels like a sigh, you know, like that kind of thing.

  KC Davis 50:26

  The sigh and I also to me, it's also connected to like being told my whole life that I'm too intimidating. Yeah, for the people that I'm attracted to. And so like, and like you said, it doesn't have to even be sexual or in the bedroom or any of that like, but to have this moment of being told, it's okay to wilt. Like, you're not too intimidating for me, like, I will step up to the challenge. Like you're and it's, there's something deeply affirming about for me the messaging of your worth stepping up to the challenge, I see you where no one else sees you, right. Everyone else is intimidating. But I see, I see someone that will I can turn to putty in my hand. So there's this aspect of intimacy of like, I see you.

  Catie Osborn 51:15

  Well, that's also I feel like that's like, that's where we get to like the next one, which is like the brat, right? Because for me, like, you know, like, I feel like, I don't know, branding. I think it's like a bad rap. Because like, a lot of times a lot of like there are a lot of I will say it, I can say what I want. I'm an adult. Like there's a lot of toxic brats in the kink community who really like foist that onto people like their branding, non consensually, and I don't get down with that. But what I do, like, what will absolutely like drop my panties Is that is that notion of like, you are worth it, like you're worth the work, you're worth the investment. And like for me, I think it is it is reinforcing to myself, that like I am desirable, and that I am valid as I am, you know, but that looks like presenting a little bit of a challenge because like I want to feel desired. And I want to feel like my asking you to take the keys, you know, and drive isn't an inconvenience. And I think a lot of that ties in also with like rejection sensitivity in a major way. But I've spent so long I've spent so much of my life, apologizing for my existence, and apologizing for taking up space, and apologizing for you know, my accommodation needs in my and just like how my brain is and how I am that being able to look at somebody and be like, not only am I not going to apologize, but I'm going to make it a little bit hard for you because I know that you want this and that you think I'm worth it. That's been one of the healthiest things, for me as an adult is just that feeling of being able to like look at somebody and have that amount of trust, and that amount of intimacy and that amount of vulnerability. And it just but it comes in being silly, and it comes in being goofy and it comes in you know, being like a little bit sassy and sarcastic or whatever, you know, your version of brat looks like. But for me, it's about that trust. And it's about that intimacy and having that with somebody, it sounds trite to say it, but it's powerful. It's powerful, and it's meaningful. And it's you know, talking about, like needs versus wants, but like, I don't necessarily think I need it. But like it's something that I want to have in my life because it is so good. It's just good.

  KC Davis 53:35

  So I have two thoughts, and I don't want to forget them. But for anybody who's sort of clutching their pearls and doesn't actually know what a brat is. Can you give us an example of what that means? Or a definition of what that looks like?

  Catie Osborn 53:48

  Yeah, I mean, I think like, the best sort of like shorthand explanation is like in a traditional power exchange dynamic, there is a dominant partner and a submissive partner. And traditionally, you know, the DOM says, you know, like, I don't know, like, go drink some water. And the submissive says, Yes, sir. Or, you know, whatever honorific there is, and drinks water in a submissive brat relationship that might look more like, why don't you come over here and make me you know, where there's like, a little there's like a rise to the power, there's a rise to like, I don't wanna say the occasion. But there is there is a push back there, but the pushback is based on the understanding that this is play that this is a sort of, like exploration of the power dynamic, because you know, we talk a lot about like, you know, the dog having all the power, but in a, I think, truly healthy kink relationship. There is an absolute power balance, where the DOM is agreeing to take the keys and you know, drive, but the submissive says, and I trust you and I'm along for the ride. And so a brat sort of is like in that like middle ground where it's like they're not necessarily dominant, but for me, like I've literally just Switch. So I go back and forth. But the brat moment is sort of about that moment of like, well, yeah, like, you want me to drink water, we'll come over here and make me and then whatever that looks like happens, but then ultimately, they drink the water. And the dog goes, Ah, you're such brat, like, does is that a good enough explanation

  KC Davis 55:20  

  I think it's a great explanation I do. And I think that when we talk about people who want to, like dip their toes into the water here, you know, if you replace drink water with take your clothes off, it's like, there's nothing Dungeoneering about that for somebody that sort of like, Oh, I could never ask for that. But it's like, yeah, that's something that even the most sort of vanilla couple would be like, Oh, well, that's an exchange that we

  Catie Osborn 55:44  

  might have. Right? Yeah, you know, or you have 30 seconds to take off your clothes, or I'm taking them off for you. Like, that's high. Like, that's high, you know, but it's also like, but then like, you're not having to be like, Oh, my gosh, are they in the mood? Like, am I being an inconvenience? Like, what if they don't really want me to take my clothes off, like, all of that is sudden, all of those like rejection sensitivity, voices are suddenly silenced because this person is looking and going. And if you're not done in 30 seconds, we're gonna have a problem, you know. And that's like, that's so powerful like that is so powerful for somebody who is accustomed to feeling like a burden and accustomed to feeling broken and accustomed to feeling like an inconvenience. Having that. I don't want to say subliminal, but that underlying message of and if I didn't want this, I wouldn't be telling you to get it done in 30 seconds. Like, it's the first like, kick changed my life like it did. Like I'll say, I don't care. kink absolutely changed my life, because it allowed me to the for the first time ever, to be the one who was calling the shots being the one who was getting asked if I was okay, being making sure that I was safe and supported. And that's why I'm such a big sort of like, advocate for all of the potentialities that kink holds in those spaces where you might feel insecure, or you might feel less than or you might feel broken. Because I think over and over and over in a relationship like that, you're being told no, I want this, I want you in a way that I think sometimes we aren't accustomed to communicating if that makes any sense.

  KC Davis 57:22  

  Yeah. And I think it directly scratches that like itch, or like heals that wound of like being too much. Like, if you're told that you're too much your whole life, there's something that about you that comes to yearn for someone to say, not just I want you, but you're worth the work that it would take to want you that, because I know how to perform. I know how to be docile, I know how to be a good girl, you know, in the sense of like, oh, I laugh at his jokes and all talk quietly, and I'll be quiet and submissive, like, but I also know that that's not really who I am. And there's this fear. And this experience, frankly, of when someone sees my real personality, and it's too much, they won't want that. And so there's something really healing about that. In our play that exchange of, but if it's hard to love me, will you still want to? Yeah. Will you still pursue? Will you still push Will you still? And you know, what's funny is like, we really do have this idea that kink is this like, perverse thing. But when I look back in my life at the characters and movies and fiction that I relate, not related to the most, but that I gravitated towards, that were like the most acceptable PG G character like Elizabeth Bennet, right? Or like any character that is saying to and that's why I was always obsessed with J not like really looking back and realizing that the reason I was obsessed with Jane Austen is because of kink was because like she would do these characters of women that would say to a man, I hate you, and the man would go, Well, I hate you. And she's this like, difficult person. And then all of a sudden, this man's like, Wait, actually, I'm in love with you. And even if you push me away, I'm going to keep pushing because that's how fucking maddening I am with how amazing you are like, looking back and realizing that like, even in like my most like innocent identification of characters, it was this same dynamic.

  Catie Osborn 59:37  

  So okay, I have one really silly story about this. So speaking of going to grad school way too many times, I have two master's degrees in Shakespeare, and my thesis advisor for when I was getting my MFA, we were like going through my resume and he was like, looking at me he's like, okay, so you got like, You got Beatrice. Okay, you've got K K. You've got Rosalind K got Lady Macbeth K. At some point he's like going down the list. Seems like have you ever noticed that all you play as brats? And I was like, I mean, there's a reason why I play like a very limited scope of roles in Shakespeare, but it's like because but I think like Shakespeare is a little bit the same way, like a lot of the women that he writes like, the really good lovers like Beatrice and and Kate are absolutely do that, too. It's that sort of like, Austin dynamic of like, I'm going to push back and I'm going to like talk shit. And I'm going to like, make you prove that you want this. And I love, like, tame like, I mean, Tammy has is problematic for its own reasons. But like, Kate and Beatrice are my two characters to play. And I play them quite frequently. And it's, but I love those characters. I like I love those roles because of that, because it's that same. Like they're both burnt out gifted kids like they're brilliant women who are stuck in these dole sort of scenarios. But yeah, like, it's the same exact thing.

  KC Davis 1:01:04  

  It's funny, because I've been watching the second season of bridgerton.

  Catie Osborn 1:01:07  

  I haven't started it yet. Well,

  KC Davis 1:01:10  

  let me tell you, there had been some audible like, yes. From me in the moment, because it is exactly that story of like, Oh, she's difficult, and she's too much and she doesn't fit in. And she's too smart.

  Catie Osborn 1:01:26  

  She's so hot. Right?

  KC Davis 1:01:30  

  And I must know. Well, that's awesome. Well, listen, Katie, this has been the coolest talk ever.

  Catie Osborn 1:01:40  

  Hooray. Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be here. This is great. You're so cool. I like you so much. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just think you're so great.

  KC Davis 1:01:49  

  Thank you. Oh, I like you, too. When I went to rehab when I was 16, we had to do these like various treatment assignments to like build our skills or whatever. And some of them were really intense about like journaling about your trauma and things like that. But some of them were like, very, like basic level, not really had a treatment assignment called like making friends. And this is so funny. So you had to like write about friendship and like, do all these things. There's like several things. But one of the things that you had to do swear to god is you had to pick two people in the community is 16 Girls, that's how big this treatment center was. We were 16. If we were between 13 and 17. That was the age range. And so at group every night, because we'd group every day and like you had to do this assignment, you had to walk up to the girl in the group, and you had to cross your arms, and they had to cross theirs and you had to hold their hands in that criss cross position. And you had to say these words. Are you ready? Katie?

  Will you be my friend? I do want me to make more friends. And literally the person will be like, Yes, I will. And that is the funniest fucking thing in the world to me that they had us do that. And for years and years and years to this day, like girls that I went to this treatment center with, we will like that's like one of our funniest inside jokes.

  Sara, will you be my friend and help me to make more friends. So every time somebody has or like it's you always always like fellow neurodivergent has that moment they're like, will you be my friend? I know that's awkward. I'm gonna be like, Haha, are we telling you? I am the master of explicitly asking someone if they want to be my friend to help me make more friends. So I find that endearing and awesome. We are friends. All right. Well, Katie, can you tell people where they can find you?

  Catie Osborn 1:03:34  

  Oh, I do lighting. So I go by Katie Soros on all social medias. I also have a podcast. It's called Katie and Eric's infinite quest in ADHD adventure. We talk about life with ADHD and neurodivergent it and living life with depression, all sorts of stuff. We talk a lot about relationships and kink and that kind of stuff. And I have a website now because I'm fancy. You can go to kT a source.com. And you can see all the cool stuff that I'm doing. Or you can go to infinite Quest podcast.com. You could go to all three, it whatever you want to do is fine.

  KC Davis 1:04:04  

  If you want to if you want to I mean, if it's not a bother.

  Catie Osborn 1:04:07  

  I'm not. It's just It's fine. There's you could if you wanted to I wouldn't be bad. It'd be fine.

  KC Davis 1:04:11  

  We will link that in the show notes for everybody. Hey, awesome. Well, thank you, Katie.

  Catie Osborn 1:04:16  

  Yeah, thanks so much for having me.